Vocational Services for Veterans with Monnie Rebecca Waltz, BS, MRC, VE, CRC, Christopher Briggman, MRC, CRC, CVE, LCMHC, LPC, and Keith Hosey

An increasing amount of research is exploring the connection between work and wellness. This includes mental wellness and physical health, both of which can be positively impacted by having employment, particularly for those navigating a disability. Simply put, work is more than just a means to earn a living or spend a significant portion of your week. 

For veterans who return to work after service, it can be tricky in general. When you combine the return to civilian life with a disability, it’s important to have the right people in your corner helping you to navigate that transition. On this episode, I had a conversation with three individuals who have meaningful insight into serving veterans. You’ll hear from:

Monnie Rebecca Waltz, BS, MRC, VE, CRC - Program Manager in Vocational Rehabilitation at the Cincinnati VA Medical Center

Christopher Briggman, MRC, CRC, CVE, LCMHC, LPC - a CRC and Vocational Expert who previously worked for the VA, now runs two practices, Balance Consulting & Counseling, and Adjusted Ability Vocational Group 

Keith Hosey - Supervisory Vocational Rehabilitation Specialist at the Robley Rex VA Medical Center. 

References to Research Mention in Today's Episdode:

Large meta-analyses of the available research has provided support for the conclusions that (1) unemployment leads to decline in mental and physical health and increased risk of suicide, and (2) re-employment leads to significant improvements in these states (McKee-Ryan et al., 2005; Paul & Moser, 2009). 

Findings from (Kukla 2012) demonstrate Working clients had fewer days of hospitalization, and had greater reduction in negative symptoms than non-working clients.

(Burns 2014) found Those who worked had better global functioning, fewer symptoms, less social disability; greater job tenure was associated with better functioning.

(Elbogen 2020) found that Veterans lacking money to cover basic needs (food, clothes, shelter, transportation, medical care) had triple the risk of endorsing suicidal ideation compared to Veterans with money to cover basic needs (22% versus 7%).

Other research examining Veterans and homelessness shows that peak risk of suicide occurs just prior to eviction (Culhane et al., 2019).

In research findings by (Abraham 2022), employment was associated with 45.9% lower suicide risk in the year following discharge from VR.

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:00):
Thank you.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (00:04):
Welcome back to Inside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
I'm CRCC Director ofCommunications and Marketing,
Taylor Bauer, and I'm excited tobring you another conversation
exploring the art and science ofrehabilitation counseling.
An increasing amount ofresearch is exploring the
connection between work andwellness.
This includes mental wellnessand physical health, both of

(00:24):
which can be positively impactedby having meaningful
employment, particularly forthose navigating a disability.
Simply put, work is more thanjust a means to earn a living or
spend a significant portion ofyour week.
For veterans who return to workafter service, it can be tricky
to make that transition ingeneral.
When you combine the return tocivilian life with a disability,

(00:45):
it's important to have theright people in your corner.
On this episode, I had aconversation with three
individuals who have meaningfulinsight into serving veterans.
You'll hear from Monty RebeccaWaltz, a CRC serving as a
program manager in vocationalrehabilitation at the Cincinnati
VA Medical Center, ChristopherBergman, a CRC and vocational
Thank you.

(01:13):
Keith, Christopher, Rebecca,thank you so much for joining us

(01:36):
today on Inside RehabilitationCounseling.
I'm really excited to hear fromyou all and learn from you all
today.
Typically on these episodes, welove to start kind of with
hearing a little bit about yourbackground and career journey.
So I'd love to start withRebecca and just kind of hear a
little bit about how you becamea certified rehabilitation
counselor.
Can you walk us through thejourney that led you to your

(01:56):
current career?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (01:58):
Sure.
So it was over a period ofyears and chain of events really
interpersonally andprofessionally, and it was sort
of a happy accident.
And that journey included a lotof people along the way that
were really important and key,and two of them are on this
podcast today, so I'm reallyglad that they're here.
I started off when I was 12years old.
The only thing I have everwanted to be was a psychologist,

(02:21):
and part of that was because ofthe school psychologist at our
school.
He was kind of interactive, andwe knew who he was, and he was
on site a lot of times.
And then, so I went to get mybachelor's degree I got a
bachelor's in psychology with adouble major in biblical studies
from a faith-based school.
And I wasn't able to go tograduate school immediately

(02:42):
after, which is not the normaltrajectory of things.
And so I returned to greaterCincinnati, where I'm from, and
started working at a localhospital.
And I was an administrativeassistant to the director of
nursing.
And so I ended up doing a lotof things that were involved
with people with complicatedmedical problems, like that were

(03:04):
not in the job description andjust people needed help.
And so it kind of felt to me,the administrative person, you
know, in the department.
And then the other piece ofthat, that was really important
also, I think, and important inme becoming a certified
rehabilitation counselor laterwas the fact that I ended up
doing a lot of data crunchingfor the department.
And it was by hand, it wasn'tin SPSS or Excel, and it was

(03:28):
taken from an older system andit was coded weird.
And I learned how to do itsomehow though, The other person
in the office taught it to meand hardly anybody else could
read it.
So I ended up doing that.
And that was really importantbecause I was really not good at
data or involved in data.
And so then after that, I endedup being a social worker for

(03:48):
the state in child protection.
And so I worked for a lot ofyears testifying in court and
then working with children withtrauma related issues.
And then their issues were alot of mental health complex
problems and theintersectionality of mental
health.
medical problems and so therewas a lot of that there's and so
that was a really formativelearning a lot of like 10 years

(04:12):
and so from there I ended upworking in inpatient psych for
Cincinnati Children's as amental health specialist for
several years and that also wasthe intersectionality of mental
health and physical diagnosesand problems and seeing that up
close and personal and that wasvery important and then during
that time along this time I haveI had older parents.

(04:34):
And so they both had many yearsof good health and both of them
had midlife, late onsetdisabilities.
And so that were very ratherdebilitating.
And seeing that in my familyand as an adult, and then having
this career path kind of inprogress as well, I think was

(04:54):
very influential.
Their resiliency and theirtoughness and determination and
their work ethic to overcomeobstacles and continue to
contribute and be effectivepeople, I think was very, very
instrumental in kind of how Igot into this kind of work.
And I had never started offplanning to go into this kind of

(05:16):
work.
So after that, it was severalyears working inpatient psych
adult and children, and thengoing back to grad school and
then getting my CRC.
I started off in counseling andI worked for a hospital with
adults and children.
And I ran partialhospitalization programs.

(05:37):
I ran groups in that.
And so we would get themedication right for people and
we would get there thecounseling piece in place and
they would make a lot ofbreakthroughs and be doing
better.
But at the end when there wasabout time for them to leave the
partial hospitalization programand discharge from that and go
back home into work or whateverthe case may be, the work piece
wasn't always resolved.

(05:58):
And that was the one thing thatpeople kept coming back to is,
I don't know if I can go back tomy old job.
I don't know if I can providefor my family or at least
contribute to my family.
And their difficulty dealingwith that really struck me.
And I remember thinking then, Idon't understand why mental
health isn't more focused onemployment, to be fair.

(06:19):
And then they would come backinto the programming and they
would go through PHP again.
They maybe wouldn't do well.
And the people that were ableto go back to work or find
another job would do better thanthe ones who didn't.
And so from there, other role Iended up working for another
hospital and in a behavioralaccess program.

(06:40):
It was new.
And so it was adjacent to theemergency department, but it was
for psychiatry.
And so they were closetogether.
So, again, theintersectionality of medical
problems, difficulties,diagnoses, challenges and mental
health.
And so seeing that, you know,again, you know, in work every
day, all day was was a bigfactor as well.

(07:01):
So graduated.
from grad school, took my CRCright before I graduated, passed
it and went that route withthat program and shifted gears
from the counseling only programto being a certified
rehabilitation counselor.
And that's a lot of how I endedup here.
At one point I started, Iwanted to work at the VA and I,

(07:24):
they had a hiring freeze rightwhen I graduated in 2017 that
lasted for three years.
And I was like, I got to dosomething else.
And so then I went and as aproject director for the state
of Ohio, medication assistedtreatment, prescription drug,
opiate addiction grant.
And that, you know, did wellwith that.
And that was a temporary grantfunded project.
Then I was again wanting toapply at the VA.

(07:47):
They weren't hiring at thatpoint.
And that's when actually thatI, I started working with Chris
because I trying to getcontracts and doing private
consulting.
And I, one of the threecontracts that I got was with
Straub Vocational Experts to dosocial security administrative
testimony remotely for de novoappeals hearings.

(08:07):
And so that's when we startedworking together.
And I would say, in my opinion,we became fast friends.
And he was a really supportivecolleague and still my colleague
and friend today.
And so he was really importantat that point as well.
And so right at that time,COVID happened.
And nobody knew what was goingon with that.
And I was a brand new expertwitness for Social Security.

(08:31):
And I was had this huge list ofhearings and a calendar and
everything.
And suddenly those were gettingcanceled and nobody knew what
was going on.
And so there wasn't any work todo where there had always been
a ton of work to do in the past.
And that had never happenedlike that.
And prior to that was trying toget trained for that.
And I want to mention ShroudVocational Experts have a

(08:53):
training program that they hadto help vocational experts kind
of onboard and learn how to dothat job.
And that was really helpful.
And they piloted that with meand We worked through any of the
kinks in the program and stuff.
And I don't think I would havemade it without that.
That was a fantastic role.
And I really love doing thatbecause you would hear everybody
testify, you know, doctors,neurologists, psychiatrists,

(09:16):
orthopedic surgeons, and theywould all testify to why this
person couldn't do their job or,you know, whatever the case may
be.
But then they would save thevocational expert witness for
last.
We would testify last.
And really everything hinged onour testimony and what we were
saying, because we sort ofrepresented the regulations and
whether or not people metcriteria based on what we had
heard in those hearings.

(09:38):
And so that was scary andexciting.
And I love doing that.
But the volume of work wasn'tthere at that moment when I
needed it to be.
So again, I was like, you know,I really did want to be at the
VA and do rehabilitationcounseling at the VA.
And I started applying and Iturned down a couple of
positions because they weren'trehabilitation counseling
positions.
And finally, I accepted aresearch associate position just

(10:01):
to get into the system.
And I thought, well, maybesomething else will come up.
And then in six months it did.
And the position in theLexington VA, a supervisory
vocational rehabilitationcounselor position came open.
I accepted that position.
I got that position.
Elizabeth Dodd hired me.
And one of the things thatElizabeth Dodd did, who was my
direct report and supervisorthere was, she asked me like in

(10:23):
the first month I was there, didI want a mentor?
And it was somebody outside ofour system that did the job that
I did in rehabilitationcounseling as a support and help
to enter me she said it's a lotyou know federal service is a
lot you know to learn all atonce and it's up to me if I went
she said they don't talk toyour boss it's not like that
they're really there for you andI said absolutely and that's

(10:45):
when I got assigned Keith Hoseyand Keith was kind enough to
take on the new person plus hisjob and so and then I was there
for a year I'd applied atCincinnati for the vacancy there
the program manager positionwas open and I applied and Dr.
Ryan Faulkner my current bosshired me and I moved here and I

(11:06):
get to be do this job in myhometown which is was really
fantastic for me and that bringsus to today so it's

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (11:14):
really interesting to hear all the
different intersections of likepractices and work settings that
you've kind of been in and howyou know rehabilitation and
medicine and psychology and allthese things we know should be
working more closely togetherare all things that you kind of
spent time with and I thinkthat'll definitely yield some
really great insights into theconversation we have today I
also met masterfully, youmentioned how you know

(11:35):
Christopher and Keith, which iskind of fun.
So now we get to go back intime and find out how they ended
up getting to where they wereto meet you.
So Christopher, why don't moveon to you next?
Can you kind of walk us throughyour career and how you got to
where you are today?

Christopher Briggman (11:47):
My journey to becoming a CRC or Certified
Rehab Counselor has been a blendof education, federal service,
and really formative hands-onexperiences.
I started with a psychologydegree at Coker University in
Hartsville, South Carolina, andthen I went on to earn my
master's in rehabilitationcounseling at the University of

(12:07):
South Carolina School ofMedicine.
That's where I reallydiscovered how meaningful the
connection is between mentalhealth and purposeful work.
Professionally, my first roleas a vocational rehab counselor
at the VA in Asheville wasincredibly enlightening and
educational.
I came into that role afterleaving a role at the VA as a

(12:29):
public outreach specialist.
So with that job, I went intothe community and talk with
homeless veterans, incarceratedveterans, elderly veterans,
minority veterans.
They even sent me overseas.
I spent a year in Europe on amilitary base, basically helping
people understand thetransition from service life to
civilian life, running TAPSprograms, that type of thing.

(12:51):
But then got the job inNashville as a vocational rehab
counselor.
And it was really myintroduction into the world of
vocational rehabilitation.
And it kind of combinedeverything I had learned after
nine years the VA into this job,you know, and it gave me a
chance to work directly withveterans that have disability
and need help navigating thatspace, you know, assimilating

(13:12):
them back into society andretraining and being comfortable
with a civilian workforce asopposed to a military workforce,
which is a completely differentsetting.
And that role gave me afoundation for really everything
that came after.
Due to family obligations, wemoved back to Charleston.
It opened up opportunities tocontinue to grow my career with

(13:33):
the VA as a hospitaladministrator.
So they call them an AOD.
So I was over the hospital atnight running everything
between, you know, deceasedveterans from the hospital and
transporting them to interactingwith people at the emergency
room, interacting andcoordinating with the nurses and
doctors and the staff.
I mean, it was, I was theadministrator at the hospital

(13:53):
and I will say it was probablythe most enjoyable job because
of the people and it was quiet.
It was really cool.
Then got promoted to a positionin human resources as a
supervisor of recruitment andplacement, overseeing a staff of
about six to seven people, butwe basically welcomed in every
employee to the VA.
So we had our NEO, new employeeorientation.

(14:15):
So what they did is it kind ofgave me a breadth of experience
when it comes to different jobsand what's required by them and
how they can communicate withus.
And it was very enlightening,again, deepening my experience
when it comes to vocationalrehabilitation.
And then at the same time, Iwas interacting with the
Department of Labor asvocational consultant or a case

(14:37):
manager, building relationshipswith employers and helping
expand rehabilitation programs.
I then went on in 2020 to leavethe VA, just wanting to grow
professionally and provideexpert testimony in federal
court.
And that's where I ran intoRebecca and we had we hit it off

(14:59):
instantly.
Those first couple of hearingsin court ruined a lot of white
shirts for me.
That panic sweat was intense.
But after that first year andcalling Rebecca to, you know,
vent and compare notes andsharpen our skills, then it
became second nature.

(15:20):
And I grew to love that work.
And at the same time, I wasbuilding my professional
practice.
I became a licensed clinicalmental health counselor and a
licensed professional counselorin North and South Carolina.
So I was kind of dabbing inboth fields because like she
said, around that time in 2020,things were kind of slow and,
you know, working for Stroud,she couldn't have expected this,

(15:41):
but she provided amazingtraining, amazing support.
So it, you know, really gave methat confidence.
So started doing someevaluations with professional
athletes out of a company inCalifornia called Diaz a
company.
Frank Diaz is amazing.
This guy is just so experiencedand he really put me on.
So I had literally every aspectof Oak rehab right there on my

(16:02):
plate.
And I was just, soaking it up,soaking it up.
Through the social securitytestimony work, you know, I was
able to sharpen my skills of,you know, just the process of
the hearings and how they run,my transferable skills analysis.
That was something I reallyhadn't touched on.
So I became really adept atthat over these past five years.
And the training was justinvaluable.
Like I said, ran that middle ofpractice where I was supporting

(16:24):
clients through therapy andcareer transitions.
You know, my specialty wasanxiety, depression, early
childhood trauma, and workplacestress.
And I found that that wasincredibly important to have,
especially with my backgroundand be able to talk with people
about it, because I basicallybeen doing that for the
Department of Veteran Affairsbefore I left.
And then academically, Iterrible overachiever, but I

(16:45):
started a Ph.D.
program at Grand CanyonUniversity, Glenn for punishment
in industrial organizationalpsychology, writing my
dissertation on howAfrican-American virtual
employees describe theirinfluence of remote work on
their group identities, whichties back to my broader passion
for high identity andenvironment.
and work shapes our lives.
So for me, the CRC and thisexperience wasn't just about

(17:09):
getting those letters behind myname or credential.
It just represents theculmination of years of
education and federalexperience, vocational testimony
and private practice, allfocused on helping people,
especially veterans, rediscovertheir purpose and help to
rebuild their future.
Keith, last

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (17:26):
but not least.

Keith Hosey (17:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
So full disclosure, I am theonly non-CRC veteran on this
podcast.
I came about my role at the VAa little differently.
I like to say I'm kind of likethe stray cat you found in the
garage and just decided to keep.
My journey actually startedwith receiving services from our

(17:50):
Kentucky State Voc Rehab to goto college.
I started as a consumer.
I got a bachelor's inphilosophy, to which my dad
passed this year, and to honorhim, I'll let you know that his
favorite joke was, when is thephilosophy store hiring?
I still haven't found a jobthere, but I've done all right

(18:12):
in this field.
So my journey then aftergraduating college, I went back
to Voc Rehab to get jobplacement assistance.
I met a rehab counselor namedRon Jackson, who introduced me
to our local Center forIndependent Living here, the
Center for Accessible Living.
So I started to working withRon as well as an employment

(18:34):
specialist at the center there.
And after a couple months, theemployment specialist, her name
was Wendy Ferrara, also a CRC,told me she was leaving for a
job in North Carolina and shewondered if I wanted to
interview for her job.
So I did.
I became an employmentspecialist at the Center for

(18:56):
Independent Living.
At the time, we had a Projectswith Industry grant for those
people listening that mightremember those from the 80s,
90s, and early 2000s.
And we worked very closely withVoc Rehab at the time, not as a
community rehab provider, butas this grantee who is also

(19:20):
serving clients in jobplacement.
So I worked there for 14 yearsin various roles.
In 2017, the individual who whoused to be in my current role,
who I had worked withprofessionally in the community
for a number of years, reachedout to me and basically said,

(19:43):
hey, would you like a careerchange?
At the time I was an associatedirector at that small nonprofit
and she had an opening here atthe VA for an IPS supported
employment specialist.
I had traditionally worked withindividuals with physical

(20:03):
disabilities, developmentaldisabilities.
And this would be workingprimarily with veterans with
severe and persistent mentalillness.
I love a challenge and I loveto grow my skills.
So I jumped at it.
I started, I worked for severalyears in direct service.

(20:25):
I was our VISN mentor trainer.
So I ended up for a littlewhile being the mentor trainer
for the VISN for all the thesupported employment specialists
on the, of course, theevidence-based IPS model.
A chance came up to become thesupervisor for the program.
So I went for that and I'vebeen supervising.

(20:45):
Actually, the very first day asa supervisor was the very first
day the entire country shutdown for COVID.
So it was an odd experience.
There was a lot of pivoting asfar as our program went, but it
was was kind of a trial by fire,which I also like.

Speaker 01 (21:06):
I feel like all three of you really took on a
new professional challenge rightin the heart of the pandemic
starting, which as if thatwasn't already a chaotic enough
time.
But you're all here five yearslater to tell the story.
So it must have worked out OK.
And I think trial by fire is agood way to say that, Keith.
I like that.
So I really appreciate allthree of you walking through
kind of how you got to where youare today.

(21:27):
I'd love to hear about some ofthe programs and initiatives
you're most involved in.
with the work that you're doingright now.
Keith, if we want to start withyou, just since we made you
wait for the first question solong, what is kind of like I
wouldn't say a typical day, but,you know, in terms of like a
week to week and kind of theworkflow that you're currently
operating in, what sort ofprograms or initiatives are you

(21:49):
involved in most closely withyour current role?
A

Keith Hosey (21:53):
little bit of background about big VA Veterans
Health Care Administration.
Every VA hospital across thecountry and in our territories
has vocational rehabilitation soit is it's part of law that
every VA offers bothevidence-based IPS supported

(22:17):
employment as well as a programcalled transitional work which
is a rehabilitation programwhere they get put into
therapeutic slot and they learnsome of the soft skills of going
back to work in my role I Isupervise the various components
under voc rehab here on the VHAside.
So other than those twomandatory components, it looks

(22:41):
different at every site.
For example, you'll probablyhear about Rebecca's site.
They have a domiciliary.
We do not here in Louisville.
What I do have is I have sevenrehab split.
I have two rehab counselors andfive voc rehab specialists.
So when you look at employmentat the there are two different

(23:04):
job series under voc rehab.
You have the GS0101, which is arehab counselor.
Anyone in that role has to havetheir CRC up to date and or get
it within two years of beinghired.
The other job series, theGS1715 is a voc rehab

(23:26):
specialist, which is the jobseries I'm under.
So you do not have to have yourmaster's You do not have to
have your certification.
You just need some kind ofexperience.
So I do want to mention thecomponents that I supervise.
Like I said, we haveevidence-based supported
employment that primarily weserve veterans who have a severe

(23:48):
and persistent mental illness.
We also serve veterans withchronic PTSD in that program.
And as data continues to evolveon the efficacy of of that
evidence-based IPS model.
We've expanded at the VA toserve individuals with substance

(24:10):
use disorder under thatumbrella, as well as traumatic
brain injury and spinal cordinjury.
Now, outside of that program,like I said, we have our
transitional work program, whichwe put veterans into
therapeutic slots for a certainnumber of months and they learn
those soft skills and they getpaid a stipend.
It's not competitiveemployment.

(24:31):
And goal is competitiveemployment.
But while they're in there,it's a medical stipend.
And that allows them to kind ofalso, oftentimes when we have
veterans coming into thatprogram, they're early in
recovery from whatever theirdisability might be, and they
still have a lot of medicalappointments.
So the great part about thatprogram, again, every VA has it,

(24:53):
is those veterans can get theirmedical care, their mental
health care, their substance usecare, whatever they're getting,
while they're showing up tothese work slots and they're
able to leave and come back, youknow, as they tell their
supervisor.
The other component that wehave here in Louisville is
called community-basedemployment services.

(25:15):
That is just completelyinvented by the VA.
It's based on the IPS model.
Some of us call it IPS light,and it has a lot of the same
principles, but it doesn'tfollow the fidelity of IPS
directly.
So that's kind of day-to-day.

(25:36):
I will say, as you mentionedearlier, Taylor, there are so
many different types of rolessomeone can have, so many
different types of jobs.
VHA, the healthcare side, isvery different than the benefit
side, very different from statevoc rehab, where you have a

(25:57):
counselor who may have acaseload that's larger than they
probably should.
unfortunately.
And they're managing thosecaseloads and tuition payments
and everything else that comesaround with that.
On the healthcare side, we arein the community.
We are actively out there.
We are moving.

(26:18):
It is not a desk job.
I like variety and every day isdifferent.
We're out.
We're meeting with newemployers.
We're meeting our veterans inthe community at their place of
employment, at a coffee shopnear their house, whatever works
for them, we really want tomeet the veteran where they are.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (26:37):
And I can imagine that makes a huge
difference.
Particularly, I know we'veheard from folks who say,
depending on clients and theirbackground and experience with
working in a system like this,sometimes there can be hesitancy
to know, like, how much am Ireally going to get from this?
And I think from the get-go,meeting someone where they are
and showing up for them makessuch a huge difference.
So I can imagine that's a greatway to show right from the

(27:00):
start, like, we're here for you.
Thank you.

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (27:31):
same floor as the domiciliary.
So the veterans who are at riskfor homelessness, substance
use, mental health diagnoses,including PTSD and anything else
that there is, they come hereand they live for a period of
time, sometimes up to eightmonths.
And so they're kind of, I said,they live here among us and we
work right beside them everyday.

(27:52):
And so that's the only reallything that's different.
So they have supportedemployment that serves a
population of people who they'retheir main, you know, issue and
struggle is a severe mentalhealth diagnosis, like Keith was
saying, schizophrenia,schizoaffective disorder,
bipolar disorder, PTSD,anything, you know, in that

(28:14):
realm.
And then we have transitionalwork, and my two transitional
work staff are here attached inthe domiciliary, you know, right
across the hall from me.
And so we are trying to helppeople who, you're talking about
people who don't have IDs, theydon't have a copy of their
birth certificate, they don'thave their social security card
they don't have family supportsometimes sometimes they do but

(28:36):
not always and they don't haveany of the things you know even
a bank account they have to goopen one up to be able to get
transitional work paychecks setup to be deposited into and
maybe they haven't had one for along time or maybe they have to
use a non-banking kind ofsystem because you know they got
into financial difficulty andcan't open to have to pay some

(28:58):
more fees off before they getthat bank account set back up so
they have to use some of theseother mechanisms.
So they don't have anything.
So we have to start really fromscratch.
They may not have a driver'slicense.
They may have court hearings.
They may be court involved.
I'd say a large percentage ofour residents here are combat
veterans.
And I don't know thepercentage, but it would be

(29:18):
pretty high.
And obviously PTSD goes withthat.
And so, and that's the struggleand why they have lost
everything, a lot to do withthat, the very fact, and that
they don't have those documentsin anymore.
They've lost them or, you know,they've got into substance use
and their life, you know, isreally stripped down to the bare

(29:39):
minimum.
And so we start with them,meeting them where they're at,
like you said, but then we gotto build that life back up, you
know, and help them to do that.
And so I think that's probablythe big difference.
One of the initiatives that Itried to do when I came into
this role, so, you know, it waspost COVID when I got here and
things were back up and kind ofrunning, but not fully, but it

(29:59):
was, it was on its way.
And so we didn't have a lot ofcontracts and so I had to try to
build up those contracts andstarted here within the VA
system because that would seemlike the easier ones maybe to
get but and so doing that andthen doing a lot of education
internally with other staffbecause that's where our
consults come from they comefrom inside the VA they're not
from the community necessarilyand if they don't aren't aware

(30:22):
of our programming or the scopeof our practice or how we can
help and they don't placeconsults then we don't have
those and so doing a lot ofmarketing and education
internally just staff, you know,on the TV monitors and on the
VA LinkedIn page or the Facebookpage for the VA or email blasts
and talking about our successstories and the change in lives

(30:42):
that people have, you know, oncethey get to the program.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (30:45):
I know we've assisted a couple CRCs in
hospital settings, not withinthe VA, but in other hospital
settings where they have reachedout and said, like, I need
people who work in the samebuilding as me to know what it
is I do, because they might bealongside you.
But I mean, we all have our owntasks and responsibilities.
Helping people to understandwhere your role comes in on the

(31:07):
voc rehab side, I think, can goa long way of even letting
people who you might be parkingnext to or working in the same
building as understand when theycan come to you for your
expertise and the services youprovide.
So that's really great to hearthat you were doing some of that
for your co-workers and peers.
Christopher, how about you?

(31:28):
What sort of programs orinitiatives are you spending a
lot of your time currentlyworking on?

Christopher Briggman (31:34):
I'm currently really focused on the
PhD, but that's tapering off.
I should finish pretty quicklywith that.
But through my company, theSocial Security Administration
contract that I'll hold, where Iprovide the disability
hearings, it allows me to expandmy expertise regarding the

(31:55):
vocational evaluation,transferable skills analysis,
and the labor market.
And we know that that's changedand has and challenged
recently.
Being abreast of that reallyputs me in a position to provide
guidance and resources to newCRCs coming into the field.
So I've been working with a fewcolleagues of mine and building
some trainings and assets thatthey could be using to become a

(32:19):
little bit more familiar withthe process.
I also contract with TCRG, theConsolidated Rehab Group under
Chapter 36, which is dedicatedto helping veterans and their
families with educational andcareer counseling.
So that is really meaningfulbecause it supports veterans in
translating their militaryexperience into civilian
opportunities while helping themto rediscover their identity

(32:40):
and the direction beyond theiruniform.
And that kind of ties into mywork in the minority population
and the PhD.
The goal is to really focus onthe identity that these
individuals are building byworking in a virtual setting and
exploring what that looks like.
The study looks at theirexperience prior to 2020 and

(33:02):
then compares it to the actualCOVID experience.
So I'm looking to collect thedata and ready to see what that
ends up being.
And then in addition, I amrunning the private practice,
Balanced Consulting andCounseling, where we work with
anybody.
I particularly love workingwith veterans.
So it's very encouraging when Ido get a chance to talk with a

(33:24):
vet and help them through itbecause I've worked with them
for 11 years regarding anxiety,depression, the workplace
stress, PTSD and then I heavilyimplement, you know, the
cognitive behavioral therapeuticapproach.
You know, the combination ofstructure and practical tools
that it provides helps clientsto, you know, progress in a way
that helps to feel competent intheir everyday lives.
And, you know, as Rebecca andKeith were talking, I got

(33:47):
flashbacks, right?
I started thinking aboutworking at the VA.
Keith was talking about thehuge caseload and it was
daunting.
It was a lot, you know, but Ihad pretty good support.
But it really threw me in themix of vocational rehabilitation
and helped me to understand whyI enjoy the field so much.

(34:07):
And it just really put me in agreat position to kind of move
forward and build opportunitiesfor, to bring more CRCs to the
field, especially minority CRCs,especially speaking because of
the veterans that come into thisspace.
I've often ran into ourminorities and they don't really
understand not only because oftheir race, but because of their

(34:28):
disabilities, why they are at adisadvantage coming into the
civilian workforce from aprestigious environment such as
the military and why does ittranslate?
So really tying those thingstogether.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (34:40):
All three of you, that's a lot on your
plate.
And it's so great to hear withall of the different things that
you're working in that thatpassion comes through and that
like that mission focus you thethree of you all seem to know
exactly why you're doing whatyou're doing and that it's a
more than just you know a nineto five or depending on the week
right probably much longer thanthat veterans carry a very

(35:01):
unique identity with them on topof being individuals with all
sorts of backgrounds and nuancesthat we all have I always like
the analogy of like you know weall have a backpack that we
carry right of all of our livedexperience the things we've gone
through, the things that webelieve, et cetera, et cetera.
But specifically with veterans,what role does the identity of

(35:21):
a veteran play in their mindsetabout receiving services?
And in your experience, whatways do you and others navigate
that a bit differently than youwould someone who potentially
has never served in themilitary?

Christopher Briggman (35:34):
Veteran identity is something that's
incredibly unique.
It's not just a job title orsomething that they once did.
It's It's something that getswoven into who they are.
Veterans carry their livedexperiences with them, whether
it's the structure of theirservice, the camaraderie of
their unit, or the trauma of thecombat.

(35:55):
And it shapes how they approacheverything, including services.
So while at the VA, I learnedearly on that many veterans see
asking for help as almost theopposite of what they're trained
to do.
They were taught to pushthrough, to put the mission
first.
to be the one that others relyon.
So when it comes to receivingcounseling, rehabilitation, or

(36:18):
vocational support, there can bea natural resistance.
The role of the services thatwe provide is to honor that
identity and not strip it away.
So that means framing theservices as a continuation of
their mission, whether thatmission is getting back to work,
finishing school under chapter36, accessing or utilizing the

(36:41):
benefits that Keith and Rebeccahave, or navigating the
disability benefits, which isalso some of the work that I did
really helped me to understandthe system in its entirety.
But it's also creatingenvironments where they feel
respected as veterans first, notjust as clients in my caseload.
So in my work from vocationalrehabilitation counseling at the
VA to my contract to SocialSecurity and TCRG and my therapy

(37:04):
practice, I try to keep that inmind.
Veterans, they don't just wantservice.
They want somebody whounderstands that their lived
experiences are similar to whothey are.
And when we respect that, theservices themselves become less
of a handout and more of apartnership in building that
next chapter in their life.

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (37:23):
When he was saying it's part of who they
are, I was saying it, you know,at the same time thinking that
he's right on about that.
These veterans that come to thedomiciliary that are kind of
stripped down, if you will, likehe said, that's exactly what's
happened over time.
And part of it may have beenbecause They felt like they had

(37:43):
to press through.
They had to push through anddeal with this on their own.
And then that complicates andcompounds the loss of things
that they have, where somebodythat maybe isn't a veteran would
have maybe pivoted way beforethey would have.
And so I feel like the amountof loss in their personal lives,

(38:04):
family, children,relationships, legally, and then
professionally is so So it's sogreat.
Some of them are very highachieving people.
They've had fantastic careersin the military.
They were not all, you know,they were an entry level person.
Some of them had amazingcareers and they were high

(38:27):
ranking people.
And now they come in here andthey can't even, they don't have
a place to live.
And so, and a lot of theseveterans are not in their 20s
and 30s.
Sometimes, you know, we do getpeople younger, but it's kind of
situations where it's persistedwith decades of decay going on,
like personally in theirfunctioning.
And so chronic homelessness,substance use, wreck their

(38:49):
lives, minds, bodies, untreatedPTSD and other conditions.
And then they haven't had anyhealth care, even though the VA
was available to them.
They have not engaged in that.
So when they come in, you know,sometimes they have to get
medical work clearance.
And that's not something thatwe talked about to be able to
work in transitional work or gobe in a voc rehab program.
We have to have that thatbaseline that they're OK and

(39:11):
well enough to participate andwork from a provider or
prescriber.
And so sometimes we're not ableto get that because they have
to take care of several medicalproblems first.
I had one person who they had acouple of significant eye
diagnoses and they were not ableto go back to their trade.
And they had a skilled tradeand they were good at it.
And that wasn't on the table.

(39:33):
And then while they were here,they also found out that they
had a cancer diagnosis and thathad to be treated right away.
And they want me to still putthem in work and to be cleared
for work and they begged me andbegged me and I'm like you know
I'm all about everybody goingfor work and I even maybe push
people to go to work but I'mlike in this particular case I

(39:53):
was even like hey maybe it'sokay to just take a break take a
pause and he just really wantedto and I was like well let's
see what the doctor says youknow I can't ever ride the
doctor and that doctor actuallysaid this cancer treatment
probably would do pretty welland that they cleared them to
work and so this person it wasthe humility of he just really
wanted to get back to work hewas desperate and I think that

(40:16):
humility and the trust that hehad developed over being here
for a time that was broken in away with the government because
they feel disgruntled sometimesas veterans who have lost
everything and you know there'salways blame to go everywhere
and around for everybody but wehave to kind of earn that back
with them and partner with themlike Chris was saying it you
have to get into the partnershipposition with them to be able

(40:38):
to do that but it's thathumility and the trust like he
will go by my office when hegets back from work at the end
of the day and be like, and he'ssmiling and he's doing cancer
treatment and he's so happy tobe back to work.
And I just think that that ispart of the unique identity and
the work ethic that they bringto the table that is different
from everybody else that I haveso much respect for.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (40:59):
Yeah, that's so powerful.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I think that's a theme wehear from CRCs and the clients
that they work with all the timeis that like there's this
really horrible misconceptionthat people who might be
experiencing or navigating adisability aren't interested in
working.
And for a lot of them, whenthey are given the support and
services that they need to findwhat it is, not only that they

(41:21):
can do and are going to besuccessful in, but that they
want to be doing, it'scompletely transformative for
them on every level.
So that's really a powerfulstory to share.
Thank you for that.
Keith, how about you?

Keith Hosey (41:35):
You know, for me, you know, veterans are really
trained to not ask for help,right?
that is the culture ofself-sufficiency.
They have terms like embracethe suck.
They have terms, you know, aim,shoot, adjust.
You know, it is all aboutovercoming, adapt and overcome,

(41:59):
right?
There's a desire to take careof yourself.
And so there have been timeswhere I've had to have a
conversation with a veteran andsay, hey, you're not getting
handouts here.
You're not getting, you know,some kind of special, you earned
these benefits.
So take advantage of them.
Your service earned this.

(42:21):
And I think the other greatthing about working with the
veteran population, you know,it's very different to try and
build someone's self-esteem whenthey're 18, 19, 20, and have
never held a job versus someonewho has been in the service for

(42:42):
however long they've been in theservice and have that base to
build on.
So oftentimes it's justreminding because we do, and I
think Rebecca did a good job ofpainting the oversized rucksack
that our veterans carry on theirback when they walk in to see
us, that sometimes there's a lotof complex interweaving issues.

(43:07):
And for me, just getting thatperson's self-esteem up, asking
them about their service,genuinely thanking someone for
their service.
Like I don't just say it when Imeet with someone, you know, I
look them in the eyes, I shaketheir hand.
I'm interested in what you didin the military.

(43:30):
I'm interested in to learn whoyou are and how I can help you
become who you want to be asyour partner in this process.
And so I think it's,Oftentimes, it's a little easier
to tap into that military prideto give them a little bit of a
self-esteem boost so that theycan take that next step to

(43:53):
continue to increase theirself-esteem until we get to a
point where they're successfullyon a job.
And all of a sudden, they'renot looking at their shoes when
they come into the office.
They're standing upright,smiling, and

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (44:07):
thankful.
Questions or conversationsabout identity are always kind
of funny, right?
Because we talk about veteranidentity as if everyone who's a
veteran has the same identityand same relationship to that
period of their life which thisis an audio format so you can't
hear this but i'm getting headnods we all know this right but
it is interesting specificallyfor for veterans and just kind
of how that is a very uniqueexperience that not everyone

(44:28):
goes through and it can playdifferent you know roles and
contribute to different factorsof how someone navigates that
that transition to civilian lifeum disability or no disability
so one thing that came up whenwe were playing this podcast
that I was really interested inbecause we haven't had a guest
on who has worked at a, who hasbeen in a work setting with this

(44:50):
sort of setup before isRebecca, you mentioned that
clients live on site at theCincinnati VA, which, you know,
was something that I was like,okay, that's something I
definitely want to hear moreabout because the first thing
that came to mind was the ideaof that proximity to clients and
how that changes, not evenchanges, that deepens the

(45:12):
understanding of them and thatrelationship you can build with
them and navigating thatsituation with them.
So I'm curious to hear fromyou, Rebecca, what sort of
experience does that provide youas a counselor?
And then also, are there anychallenges that come with having
clients who are alsopotentially living on site at
the Cincinnati VA?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (45:33):
So the first thing that comes to mind
for me is that it absolutely isa different kind of a scenario.
So if you, you know, boundariesare always really important and
it's a big tenet in crc and ourcode of ethics and but they
live right here they literally ihave a veteran that is his room
their group of the room there'slike three or four of them in a

(45:54):
room that they share is rightnext to my office like literally
if they beat on the wall iwould hear it so they're right
there um and i say theyliterally live among us and i
start my day when i come in inthe morning and i'm meeting them
they're going down the elevatorto go outside to smoke or just
go outside for a little bit getsome fresh and it's you know I'm
saying good morning how wasyour weekend you doing okay you

(46:16):
okay last night did you go tothat meeting last night did you
make it you know is it okay youhad some stuff going on
yesterday and it kind of startslike almost in the parking lot
and on your way in because someof my transitional work guys are
outside working on the groundswhen I come in and I make sure I
you know say hi to them on theway in in the mornings and when
I leave in the afternoon they'reout there cutting the grass or

(46:36):
raking the leaves whatever it isright now and I do think it as
As a professional, you want topride yourself or try to protect
yourself from being judgmentalof people or judging people
harshly or incorrectly or havinga bias of any kind.
And I know that the other twoprofessionals on here are very

(46:57):
good at trying not to do that.
And we work hard at that.
We take that seriously.
But it is human nature to dothat at some point.
And I think when they are righthere and I'm on their treatment
team hearing what's beenhappening in the week and the
other disciplines talking aboutwhat's going on medically or
psychosocially, what's going on,the struggles that are going

(47:17):
on.
I think it helps me to be lessbiased.
I think it helps me to be moreunderstanding and not as
judgmental and the things that Idon't want to be, but guess
what?
I kind of am sometimes.
And it helps me to be a betterpractitioner, to be fair, like
it really does.
And the downside of that is, isthat you're really invested if

(47:37):
they don't get that job or ifthey relapse or whatever, you
know, you really are.
And it, you know, almost feelslike they're, you know, you know
them like family or better thanyour family, but they're not
your family and they're yourpatients and they're your
veterans.
And so it's, it's constantly,you know, it's a strange kind of
a situation, but I think it'sgood overall.
And the other thing is, is thatthe VA is the veterans come

(47:59):
first.
And so I kind of have an opendoor policy, but they walk by my
office all day.
So I'm doing all the thingsthat I do, but they just stop
in.
And I don't, I have a hard timetelling the veteran, no, not if
I'm in a meeting like this ori'm on another virtual treatment
team call i can't i can't stopthat but afterwards or in
between when my door is openthey will just stop in you know

(48:20):
and they want stuff and it'sit's important stuff they're
trying to get those ids they'retrying to get their birth
certificate we had one they hadto send to another country's
consulate um to get a birthcertificate because we couldn't
get anywhere with getting id oranything they can't get a job in
this country without proper idnobody can nobody ever could i
mean and so um It just kind ofheightens, I think, the urgency

(48:46):
and it heightens the depth ofhow far we have to go with this
to help them kind of put thingsback together in their lives.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (48:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that relationship, thatcounselor-client relationship
already starts to get so, as yousaid, you become so invested in
seeing them achieve their goalsor grow and make progress.
And I can imagine having themright in that store, like you
said, can add a little bit ofthat sort of investment.

(49:13):
We know that veterans, and thisis something Keith mentioned at
the top of our conversation,the concept of PTSD and how that
can play a role in this sort ofrehabilitation process.
We know veterans oftenexperience PTSD and other
trauma-related conditions, andsuicide prevention is a key
consideration for anybody, butspecifically this population.

(49:36):
And Rebecca, when we were firstdiscussing the podcast and
maybe what we'd be talking aboutabout.
You mentioned something thatstuck with me that I immediately
wrote down on the piece ofpaper I still have from weeks
ago when we talked, and thisidea of the protective factor of
work.
Can you elaborate a little biton that concept and how it
pertains to clients who might beat risk of depression, anxiety,

(49:59):
or other serious conditions?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (50:01):
Yeah, and I'm really glad that you even
brought that up again and thatyou're willing to talk about
that today.
So when I was talking about themarketing that I'm doing,
that's one of the concepts thatI'm trying to push out there
because it's Sometimes peoplethink of work as the last thing,
but it's really a high priorityfor the protective factor of
work.
Everybody complains about theirjobs, wanting to retire,

(50:21):
playing the lottery and going tothe beach forever.
But work is a huge part of mylife.
And my career is the investmentyou were talking about, the
years that we've worked in thefinancial investment and the
time and however long it takesto do a PhD, which I can only
imagine what Chris is goingthrough because I haven't done
it.
But I think that veteransThey're not different than

(50:43):
anybody else.
They've sacrificed more thanany of us.
Maybe they've had, went to war,been deployed, lost limbs, lost
part of their, you know,they've had their brains blown
up and jarred by an IED or abomb.
All of that, you know, goes outthe door, you know, when you
come back from war and then theresults of all of that.

(51:03):
And if they can't go back towork, though, and they don't
feel like they are contributing,just like the people that were
in partial hospitalization, alsoSo the same kind of idea that
they couldn't get the work piecesorted out.
And if they can't do that, itdoesn't, it's not that it
doesn't matter that the meds areright or that the counseling
breakthroughs happen.
That's all important.
And that their health isaddressed.

(51:25):
Absolutely.
But if you can't go back towork and at least contribute,
and some of them, they can't goback to work in a paid status
and they, they want to volunteerand they, and they do that.
It's so important to them to beable to contribute to in some
way.
And I, Nobody talked about workwhen I was in different types

(51:45):
of roles.
And I think that that's themost important thing, that work
is actually going to help keepthem from committing suicide.
It's a huge component to that.
And it's so important.

Christopher Briggman (52:00):
We all know that veterans often face
PTSD, depression, and sometimessuicidal ideations.
And those aren't just clinicaldiagnosis.
They...
They're lived realities for alot of people I've worked with
in the VA through Chapter 36 andeven in my private practice.
One of the things I can alwaysemphasize is the protective

(52:20):
factor of work.
Work, when it's the right kindof work, does more than just
provide a paycheck.
It creates purpose, structure,identity for a veteran who's at
risk.
Having that reason to wake up,that sense of responsibility to
a team again, that rhythm totheir day can serve almost as
like an armor against thatisolation.

(52:41):
The military, it instills amission first mindset and work
can help recreate that missionin civilian life.
So I've seen it play out invery tangible ways.
Veterans who were strugglingwith depression found new energy
once they stepped into a jobwhere they felt useful.
Those battling the suicidalideation found stability when
work gave them a sense ofaccountability to others.

(53:02):
Even just the routine of havingsomeone somewhere to be and
someone expecting you can andinterrupt that downward spiral.
So of course, it's not acure-all.
We have to be mindful.
Not every job is a good fit.
And pushing someone into workbefore they reticent and

(53:22):
backfire, that's wherevocational rehabilitation comes
in.
That's where, whether it'sthrough the SSA hearings,
Chapter 36 counseling ortherapy, my goal and a lot of
our goal is to work to realignthe job with the veteran's
abilities, interests, and thatstage of recovery.
So when I talk about theprotective factor of work, I
mean that work can act as abuffer, and it provides purpose,

(53:47):
it reconnects veterans to thecommunity, and it often becomes
a lifeline that keeps themmoving forward.
When we talk about work, it'snot just about the identity or
the purpose, right?
There's a massive financialimplication for a society when
people can't work.
Employment isn't free, itcosts.
Every person out of work meansincreased reliance on public

(54:07):
benefits, higher healthcarecosts, and often more strain on
community resources.
So for example, the Departmentof Labor has estimated that each
underemployed worker costssociety tens of thousands of
dollars annually in lostproductivity and increased
support.
Multiply that across theveteran community or the
disability population and theeconomic impact is staggering.

(54:28):
On the flip side, when veteransand people with disabilities
are supported back into theworkforce, we can see not just a
reduced benefit in those costs,but an increase in tax revenue,
stronger consumer spending andhealthier families.
work as a protective factorlike you mentioned earlier for
mental health it can also be aprotective factor for society's
economic stability that's whyvoc rehab and programs like

(54:52):
social security disability yearsor chapter 36 services aren't
just about individuals they'reinvestments that pay dividends
for the

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (54:59):
entire community thank you so much i
think even for folks who aren'tveterans who are who haven't
experienced maybe something asextreme as um thoughts of
suicide and things like that canunderstand that feeling of when
your personal life there arethings going on sometimes it can
feel really good to get to goto work and be like I get to
just do my job for the day rightso I think that speaks on a on

(55:21):
a lesser level to what you'retalking about with these
veterans and navigating thisidea of trying to find a way to
facilitate the way that they'refeeling and the experiences
they've had through somethingwhere they're they're moving
forward with like action nowwhether it be in a job or
volunteering or something likethat I think that that's that's
a really powerful concept

Keith Hosey (55:41):
yeah I Absolutely.
And I just want to reiterate,especially for veterans, many
veterans say that the thing theymiss the most when they leave
the service is the mission, thecamaraderie too, right?
But having a mission and wakingup in the morning and knowing
what you're supposed to be doingthat day and what your goal is

(56:05):
and how that affects everyone.
So that is a bit jarring.
I I think from what I've heardfrom people when they, you know,
leave the service.
But I also, I am a data nerd.
And so I just want to mentionthat there have been an

(56:25):
increasing number of studiesover the past 10 to 15 or so
years around employment and itseffects.
when people have meaningfulwork in their lives, they tend
to have more successfulhealthcare outcomes.

(56:48):
So, you know, that's big newsat the VA.
You asked about suicidality.
I would say that I work insuicide prevention, even though
my job title is voc rehabspecialist.
We know that unemployment leadsto decline in mental and
physical health, increased riskof suicide.

(57:08):
Reemployment leads tosignificant improvement Findings
have shown that working clientshave fewer days of
hospitalizations, greaterreduction in negative symptoms
than non-working clients.
Studies have found that thosewho work had better global
functioning, fewer symptoms,greater job tenure and better

(57:31):
functioning.
So, you know, and then to speakof suicidality, I wanted to
just mention a 2020 study foundthat veterans lacking money to
cover basic needs, you know,food, clothing, shelter, had
tripled the risk of endorsingsuicidal ideation compared to
veterans who had money, 22%versus 7%.

(57:55):
So that's huge.
Another piece of research from2019 examined veterans and
homelessness showed that thepeak risk of suicide occurs just
prior to eviction.
So, you know, we have when wehave people working and earning
that money and able to pay forthose needs.

(58:16):
And I'd like to highlight in2022, the VA did a study of our
information collection system isNEPIC, Northeast Program
Evaluation Center, N-E-P-E-C.
And they took data from thebeginning of voc rehab in VHA,

(58:39):
which was like 2006, I believe,quote me on that.
Up until 2019, and they lookedat across the country, they
looked at outcomes for veteranswho discharged from voc rehab,
successfully employed versusthose who don't.
And they saw that employmentwas associated with a 45% lower

(59:05):
suicide risk in the first yearfollowing discharge from voc
rehab.
So to me, nothing's speaksabout the power of work more
than that statistic right there.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (59:16):
Qualitative and quantitative data have their
role to play, right?
And these stories can helpfolks resonate with the idea of,
you know, feeling like they canput themselves in that
situation and understand afragment of what that might be
like shows how important it isto be able to first figure out
if someone's, you know,functional abilities and
limitations are going to allowthem to return to work or a new

(59:38):
career, a new job or somethinglike that.
But then also and I thinkRebecca and Christopher
mentioned this, if work isn't anoption, what sort of
integration into a community orto a collective setting can
someone experience or cansomeone pursue to be able to
still feel that camaraderie,that sense of I'm showing up and
my being here is making acontribution to something bigger

(01:00:01):
than myself.
And I think I would imagine, Idon't want to speak for
veterans, but I would imaginethat's a huge part of your
psyche for pursuing militaryservice and then being a part of
that.
And as I think all three of youmentioned coming out of that,
that's something that you canreally start to miss is that
feeling of being a part ofsomething bigger than yourself.
We'll make sure to link thosestudies that Keith mentioned in

(01:00:21):
the show notes for everyone tocheck out.
I think resiliency is probablya word a lot of us would connect
to the idea of a veteran orsomeone who has served in the
military and this idea ofresiliency specifically for
veterans navigating a disabilityas they return to civilian
life.
I'm curious in yourperspective, how did the tenets
of military service service playa role in their approach to the

(01:00:44):
experience of working with acertified rehabilitation
counselor or anybody who mightbe providing them services to
navigate living with adisability?
It's an interesting question.
The

Christopher Briggman (01:00:55):
word resiliency almost feels too
small for what I've seen.
Veterans have this ingrainedability to adapt and improvise,
what the military callsimprovise, adapt, overcome.
Another one of those sayings,right, Keith?
That doesn't disappear whenthey face a disability.
In In fact, I see it shine.
Sure, there are moments offrustration and grief, but I've

(01:01:16):
also seen a vet in a wheelchairoutfish half the able-bodied
folks on a pier because hefigured out a new setup, right?
You know, their service taughtthem to problem solve under fire
and they bring that same gritto the challenges of disability.
And it genuinely inspires meand has inspired me to push to
accomplish all the things thatI'm doing right now.

(01:01:38):
I often think I'm doing toomuch.
back off, but then I rememberthe veterans that I've worked
with and what they went through.
And I'm like, I can still move.
I can still think I still have,you know, the ability to do
that.
I'm going to do as much as Ican with this life.
And that was in, in the heavycombat groups that I ran as a
readjustment counselingtherapist, something I learned

(01:01:59):
meeting with veterans as a folkgrief counselor in Asheville,
speaking with them then, like, Ithink that's the thing about
veterans that I appreciate themost outside of their service is
just their resiliency.
So like I said, I think it'sjust too small a word.

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (01:02:13):
The other thing that I thought of was
these are people who are thrownin with people they didn't know
from all walks of life, allsocioeconomic backgrounds, a
diverse people group.
They had to adapt and learndifferent religions to be around
people with different politics,gender.
It doesn't matter.
And they had to learn to worktogether as a team.

(01:02:33):
And so they bring that alreadyto the table.
And so that adaptability isjust very deep for them.
And that's That's what thatquestion kind of made me kind of
hone in on that aspect of it.
And they're really good atthat.
And they're very, thecamaraderie with each other in
different branches, it's really,I think it's cute when they're,
you know, they're starting todo better here and we get to

(01:02:55):
hear them teasing each other inthe hallway, but they're friends
and they're encouraging eachother and trying to support each
other in their recovery.
And it's just, it's a beautifulthing.
It really is.

Christopher Briggman (01:03:05):
That is the most hilarious thing to
witness too.
They're like siblings.
It's so funny.

Keith Hosey (01:03:11):
Yeah.
That's part of any branch.
Resiliency is part of what theylearned in the military.
And I think our veterans, moreso than much of our general
public, are really great atadapting to changing
environments, quickly changingenvironments, able to pivot when

(01:03:36):
they need to.
For example, the disciplinethat veterans learn in the
military service can lend itselfsometimes to adjusting to a new
disability, right?
So, you know, I may decide I'mdone with physical therapy after
three times, but the disciplineand also the structure of rank

(01:04:02):
and respect, you know, thatveteran may go to all those
sessions because A, the doctorsaid you should and the doctor
is a respected physician and B,you're disciplined enough to go
and do that.
plus everything everyone elsesaid.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (01:04:18):
That's the funny thing about having three
guests on one podcast, right?
It's whoever gets to go first.
It feels like really kind ofnot, especially with you three
being so thoughtful through thisprocess, someone knocks it out
of the park and then you have tobe like, how do I beat, not
beat it, right?
It's not a competition, but youknow, it's like, okay, what
else can I add?
Because you've all, you know,it's been really inspiring and
informative for me to hear fromall of you today.

(01:04:40):
So again, I can't thank you allenough for taking time to speak
with us.
And we like to end theseconversations with the same
question because I find thethrough line with everybody who
works in this sort of field isthis general sense of purpose
and specifically feeling likethe work that you do is a
calling that you've answered interms of being a certified

(01:05:02):
rehabilitation counselor anddoing the work that you do.
What brings you joy?

Monnie Rebecca Waltz (01:05:06):
Well, that's an easy, that's the
easiest question you've askedtoday, probably.
So I'm happy to go first onthis one.
I think the veteran successstories and they change the
lives that come out of our work.
And even as a team.
It's my whole team that doesit.
It's not just as something Ido.
It kind of takes everybody andit takes the interdisciplinary
team's effort.
There's no question in yourmind that it's not a singular

(01:05:28):
effort that's going to make adifference here, but it's a
group process.
It's the physical difference intheir faces when they're
looking at the floor at firstand then they're laughing and
they're talking and it's seven,eight months later and they've
been making money and they'reable to buy something for their
child for a birthday or aholiday they're smiling, they're

(01:05:48):
happier, they're laughing.
Seeing that in the new careerpath and they're excited about
the new job or a different jobthat they're going into is so
rewarding.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (01:05:57):
Keith, how about you?
What brings you joy in the workthat you do?

Keith Hosey (01:06:01):
So for me, it is and I think it has always been
seeing that transformation ofthe individual and sharing their
joy when they get a job.
I've There's just no betterfeeling.
I remember early in my careerwhen I was working at the Center

(01:06:25):
for Independent Living here, Iwas supervising a small team of
employment specialists.
And my boss and I were walkingout of the center, another CRC,
George Parsons, a great mentorof mine.
And a gentleman came in andasked for one of my employment

(01:06:46):
staff.
And he He's already left.
Can we give him a message?
And the gentleman said, yeah, Igot that job.
I finally got that job.
And I'll be honest, it was along day and I wasn't feeling
it.
I was trying to go home and Isaid, okay, well, thank you.
I will let him know.
And George stopped in histracks and he looked at this

(01:07:08):
gentleman and he said, I am sohappy for you.
Congratulations.
You must be so proud.
And he just went on and threw atick parade for this guy.
And I thought, where did I losethat?
And so I've carried that sincethen.
And so when my team hasmeetings, I start with success

(01:07:28):
stories every day in the morningwhen we huddle before we go out
in the day.
I ask for, are there anysuccess stories?
Does anyone have anyone gettinginterviews today?
What are we looking at?
Because it's easy sometimes inthe red tape or in the whatever
to lose sight of what we're herefor.

(01:07:50):
And what we're here for is tohelp rehabilitate individuals
into the workforce so that theycan live as someone who came
through the state voc rehabsystem.
I see myself as someone who ishelping lift his brothers and
sisters in disability out ofpoverty, lifting them

(01:08:12):
economically.
And it's so important becausewithout economic independence,
People don't have trueindependence.

Christopher Briggm (01:08:19):
Christopher.
Thanks.
And Keith and Rebecca, you guysare amazing.
I get the feeling of nostalgiahearing you guys talk about the
work you're doing.
So keep the energy, man.
Keep that energy.
For me, what really brings mejoy in this work, it's those
quiet moments when a veteranrediscovers himself or a
civilian, right?

(01:08:39):
I've seen men and women comingto my office weighed down by
PTSD or depression or the beliefthat their best days were
behind them.
And then after some worktogether, they start to realize
I have skills.
I have a mission.
Watching that shift fromhopelessness to purpose is
really what fills me up.
It's not just a feel-goodstory.

(01:09:00):
It's the data that shows amongveterans with PTSD, those who
engage in VA programs,counseling, rehab services, the
suicide rates drop, right?
And I don't have the statisticfor it.
I'll let Keith share thatinformation for you.
for you, but I think it'ssomewhere around 25 to 20%, I

(01:09:20):
think.
To me, it means that everyconversation, every evaluation,
and every connection matters.
So it's not just about mycareer.
It's a calling.
The CRC gives me a platform todo what I believe I was meant to
do, stand in those criticalmoments with veterans and help
them find their way forward, dothe same for civilians.
And that's the joy, seeing themreclaim not just a job, but

(01:09:43):
their sense of self and future.

Taylor Bauer, CRCC (01:09:48):
Thank you to Rebecca, Christopher, and Keith
for an excellent conversationon this episode of Inside
Rehabilitation Counseling.
If you have any comments orinsights to share about today's
topic, email us at contactus atcrccertification.com.
You can also find us onFacebook, Instagram, and
LinkedIn by searching CRC Cert.
Like, subscribe, and rate theshow on your favorite podcast

(01:10:12):
platform, including Spotify,Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you're listening to us today.
And hey, if you have a niceday, for a future episode of the
show or you want to come on andtell us about your work in
rehabilitation counseling, getin touch.
We'd love to have you.
Thanks for listening to InsideRehabilitation Counseling.
I'm CRCC Director ofCommunications and Marketing,
Taylor Bauer.

(01:10:32):
Take care.