January 22, 2025 • 51 mins
On this episode of Insights@Questrom, contributor Shannon Light chats with Kathy Kram, Professor of Management & Organizations, emerita, and Tim Hall, Professor of Management & Organizations, emeritus, about their co-authored book, Retiring: Creating a Life That Works for You.
The discussion dives into retirement as a major life transition—one that goes beyond financial and health concerns to address deeper psychological, social, and structural challenges. Professors Kram and Hall share insights from their book, which is based on detailed retirement stories of 14 individuals and over 200 interviews. They explore how retiring involves reconstructing both identity and life structure, offering wisdom on the four major tasks of retirement: making the retirement decision, detaching from work, building a new retirement life, and adapting as life unfolds.
Listeners will learn how alignment among self, life structure, and external context is key to life satisfaction during retirement and how support from family, friends, and colleagues can make a crucial difference. The authors also discuss how organizations can better support older workers as they prepare to transition out of their careers.
To find out more about their book, ‘Retiring: Creating a Life That Works for You’ visit https://retiringbook.com or find their book on Amazon here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
JP Matychak (00:19):
Hello everybody and welcome into the show and
welcome to season three of theInsights and Question podcast.
I'm JP Matichak.
On this episode, contributorShannon Light chats with Kathy
Cram, professor of Managementand Organizations Emerita, and
Tim Hall, professor ofManagement and Organizations
Emeritus, about theirco-authored book Retiring
(00:40):
Creating a Life that Works foryou.
The discussion dives intoretirement as a major life
transition, one that goes beyondfinancial and health concerns
to address deeper psychological,social and structural
challenges.
Professors Cram and Hall shareinsights from their book, which
(01:01):
is based on detailed retirementstories of 14 individuals and
over 200 interviews.
Here's Shannon Light.
Shannon Light (01:12):
I'm very excited to be sitting down today with
Kathy Cram and Tim Hall todiscuss their book Retiring
Creating a Life that Works foryou.
Kathy is the RC ShipleyProfessor in Management Emerita
at Boston University's QuestromSchool of Business.
Her primary interests are inthe areas of adult development,
(01:33):
relational learning, mentoring,diversity issues and executive
development, leadership andorganizational change.
Processes Kathy, thanks so muchfor joining me today.
Processes Kathy, thanks so muchfor joining me today.
I am also here with Tim Hall,who is the Morton H and
Charlotte Friedman Professor ofManagement Emeritus at Boston
(01:53):
University's Questrom School ofBusiness.
Tim is also the foundingdirector of the Boston
University Executive DevelopmentRoundtable and has also served
as Acting Dean and AssociateDean for Faculty Development, as
well as the Faculty Directorfor MBA Programs at Questrom.
Tim, thank you for joining ustoday.
Tim Hall (02:14):
Thank you, shannon, nice to be here.
Shannon Light (02:18):
I'm very excited to learn more about your book
Retiring Creating a Life thatWorks for you your book Retiring
Creating a Life that Works foryou.
Congratulations on thepublication in October 2024.
I know it's been a veryexciting time for you both, so I
look forward to learning moreabout how this book came to be.
(02:38):
I figured best to start withlearning how this book emerged
and really who it's for.
Kathy Kram (02:49):
Well, I think I'll let you, tim, start this out,
because you're the one whoinvited me to lunch at
Bertucci's.
Tim Hall (02:58):
Well, I was thinking you started it because you
started making plans forretirement a year or so before I
did, and that's what first gotme thinking about retirement.
And I guess there may be apoint there that this is very
personal for all of us on theauthor team and we weren't all
(03:21):
retired when we started theproject.
Only one of us was Lottie Balin, I guess.
For me I was interested indoing a study of late career
development.
Most of my research has been oncareers and how people develop
(03:43):
in their careers and what kindof transitions they go through,
and I had done some research onolder workers and a little bit
on retirement.
But I was interested in thepossibility of doing a study,
maybe sort of an observationalstudy, where it involves
(04:04):
tracking my own and teammates'experiences, as we're talking to
other people as well.
But so I had asked Kathy if shewould be interested in that as
well, and originally we weretalking about doing a study with
(04:31):
our spouses.
Kathy's husband, Peter, was aprofessor in the sociology
department at BU and my wife,Marcy Crary, was a professor at
Bentley in the managementdepartment, and so we were
thinking about doing somethingtogether as a foursome.
And then I had a call fromTeresa Amabile at Harvard
(04:54):
Business School and we've beenfriends for a long time and she
said she was getting ready to doa study of retirement and could
we get together and talk.
She just wanted to bounce someideas around, so we arranged to
get together at Bertucci's therewas a Bertucci's in Kenmore
Square at that time and I saidwell, I've been talking to Kathy
(05:20):
and Teresa knows Kathy.
And I said how would it be if Iinvited Kathy to join us?
Teresa said great, and as wetalked we realized what we want
to do.
Both projects were prettysimilar and so we said well, why
don't we think about doingsomething together?
(05:43):
So that's really how it gotstarted.
Kathy Kram (05:46):
Yeah, and I think you know.
An important add to that is, asTim mentioned, all of us were
considering retirement.
One was retired.
The reason I was so excited isthat all my research throughout
my career has always had anautobiographical component, and
I was getting ready to retire soI figured what better way to do
(06:11):
that than to find a project onretirement.
So it was very timely for allof us and an important part of
how the book came about was wedid examine our own experiences
as we were doing the research.
Tim and Teresa actually wrote apaper on self-referential
(06:35):
research.
We really believe that our workwas enhanced by having gone
through the process ourselves.
So we're all now officiallyretired from our universities.
Well, congratulations.
(06:55):
Yeah, that is.
Shannon Light (07:00):
I think that's a really important aspect to this
book is that you all can speakto your own personal experiences
, and I think that willdefinitely help the audience
resonate with the informationthat you cover in the book.
Which of retirement journey Didyou find that these are common
(07:29):
with the retirement journey, ordid you see a lot of overlap,
with people struggling with oneof those tasks more than others?
Were there trends?
Kathy Kram (07:44):
Yeah, should we first say what they are?
Shannon Light (07:48):
Yes, that would be great.
Kathy Kram (07:49):
Yeah.
So we identified across all 120people that we interviewed and
these were people in thecorporate world from three
different companies, differentcompanies.
They all had to address fourtasks.
(08:10):
We call them developmentaltasks because they require
learning and exploration andusually change in some aspect of
the self as they go about thiswork.
So, obviously, the first taskis making the decision to retire
, and when people think aboutretirement, that's what they
(08:32):
usually think about and theybase it on financial.
You know, do I have thefinancial readiness?
Do I have health requirements,that readiness?
Do I have health requirementsthat cause me to want to work
(08:52):
less?
Whatever it may be?
But rarely do people thinkabout what comes after the
decision to retire.
And the second, third and fourthtasks are all about what comes
after.
The second one is detachingfrom work.
Really, you know, most of us,both in academia and the
corporate world, have strongidentification with our work.
(09:13):
So there's a identity changethat comes about, and the second
task is about navigating thatidentity change and usually
identity loss as well.
The third task is aboutexploring and experimenting with
(09:34):
building a new life structure,and the life structure is all
the activities and relationshipsand contexts that are currently
part of our life.
When you take work out of thatas a central organizing concept,
there's a lot of uncertainty.
What do I do with those 40 to60 hours a week I use working?
(09:58):
So that's kind of theintroduction of a big piece of
the transition to again, as Timand I are discovering as we
(10:28):
finish this big 10-year project,the question is, what will we
be doing next?
So everybody has to go throughthose tasks.
The question is there's widevariation in how they go about
it.
Tim, did you want to add tothat?
Tim Hall (10:47):
No, I think that's a good description.
It sounds sort of obvious whenyou mention them that well, yeah
, of course you have to make thedecision to retire, of course
you have to detach andeverything.
But it's a whole lot easiersaid than done.
Shannon Light (11:05):
I'm sure that's something, and, of course,
somebody who is far fromretiring.
Even now, the idea of detachingfrom work, both tangibly and
psychologically, seems like avery significant hurdle.
Tim Hall (11:27):
Yeah.
Shannon Light (11:29):
During these studies, did you find that
people had strategies that wereeffective for navigating this
phase?
Kathy Kram (11:40):
Yeah, and I think there are a number of different
strategies that people use.
The one that comes to my mindbecause it's what I did and we
heard from several people I'mthinking about one of the people
we interviewed.
We interviewed 14 people many,many times, so we got
(12:02):
longitudinal data on them, andone of the people we interviewed
said that he knew from aprevious career ending and
transition that having a landingspot was really helpful,
something you're moving towards,a project that excites you in
(12:23):
some way beyond the work thatyou can replace it with.
In my case, and I think inTim's case too, it was this
project and another project thatI had going that was going to
go on even after I retired fromthe university.
So that's one strategy have inmind something that you can
(12:45):
really put yourself into the wayyou did into work, or you can
express the same talents andskills that you did when you
were working that you cantransfer to Other people just
welcome the freedom of time thatcomes with letting go of
(13:05):
full-time work, and some of ourparticipants were celebrating
not having to get up to an alarmclock, having more quiet time,
reflective time, time to readnovels you know, really
dependent on the individual andwhat they saw as their values
(13:28):
and priorities.
Tim Hall (13:31):
I think some people try to have specific plans in
mind for retiring, like thelanding spot.
A guy named Walter in our studyis the one Kathy's talking
about for that, and Iinterviewed him.
(13:52):
And also he had been in themilitary.
He was a 20-year militaryofficer, so he had already had
the experience of retiring, sohe had learned from that
experience.
And so other people, though,didn't necessarily feel the need
(14:16):
to have specific plans.
They had more of a process theywere going to use, and one of
the people took advantage of hiscompany's program, which was a
transition into retirementprogram where they could sign up
(14:37):
and have a year and a half at areduced workload, so they would
have one day a week off.
He was an engineer and managerand he would take Fridays off,
(14:58):
was very active in his religiouscommunity, and a big part of
the work in the religiouscommunity involved discernment,
and he had great faith that hewould be able to use this
(15:19):
process of reflection anddiscernment on Fridays.
He was planning that's how hewas planning to spend his
Fridays.
That would be his day to sortof figure out what he would be
doing in retirement, what hewould be doing in retirement,
(15:45):
and again, it didn't quite workout that way, because his
daughter had just had a baby, alittle baby boy, and when she
knew he was going to be home onFridays free, she said dad, how
would you feel about babysittingon Fridays, or anyway?
So he he wasn't quite sureabout that, but what he decided
was that he would, uh, spendhalf the day with his new
(16:09):
grandson and then half the dayin his discernment practice, um,
and that worked out very wellfor him, and so it was also an
experiment with the new role ofgrandfather.
This was his first grandchildand he surprised himself at how
(16:32):
much he loved it, and so part ofwhat he discerned in that
process was that he could reallysee how having family life be a
bigger part of his life, thatcould help take up that space
that had been the work part ofhis life.
When he first started doing thetransition program, he'd be
(16:55):
home on Fridays, and he wasreally daunted at the absence of
his engineering self and he wasasking himself well, who will I
be if I'm not an engineer?
But as the time went by and hegot to know his grandson and got
(17:17):
to realize how much he lovedbeing together with him, then he
realized okay, now I can see.
This other part of my life isgoing to grow.
Kathy Kram (17:30):
And then another contrast to that individual are
some of the people one of themthat I interviewed, simon, who
he had so many hobbies gardeningand hiking and political action
and active member of his church.
(17:52):
He couldn't wait to stop workingso that he could just funnel
more of his time and energy intothose other things that he
loved.
So his transition for some wasvery short.
Like him, within a year he feltquite settled in his new life,
which didn't change very much,except he did take up a
(18:16):
volunteer job where he could usesome of his computer and
engineering skills to serveunderserved populations and he
really found meaning in that.
So it depends, really depends,on the opportunities.
We talk about the self beingthe person's identities and
(18:38):
motives and priorities, and thenthe life structure, which are
all the activities andrelationships importantly, like
a grandchild in one's life, andhow those shift as the decision
to retire is implemented.
And it's kind of a dancebetween those two the self on
(19:02):
the one hand, who's changingidentity right, letting go of
work and maybe bringing in somenew identities like grandparent,
and the life structure, whichloses work and may lose some
relationships like goodcolleagues and friends that one
had at work.
Shannon Light (19:25):
It's to that story of having the grandchild
and how big of a role thatturned into for for this retiree
.
It seems that family, friends,colleagues are a big support
system when it comes totransitioning into that
(19:47):
retirement phrase.
Are there specific actions orbehaviors that you observed when
speaking with the 14 retireesand doing the many interviews
that they expressed helped maketheir process easier or their
transition easier?
Kathy Kram (20:08):
We clearly saw a pattern of people who were aware
of the impact of this verypersonal decision on people in
their family and in their lives.
When they were aware that it wasgoing to impact them, they had
an easier time because theycould kind of renegotiate
expectations with those familymembers and friends.
(20:33):
And one of the major themes thatcame out of our analysis was
the importance of relationshipsand being proactive or agentic
about renegotiating expectationsand making relationships really
(20:54):
a source of support.
We had a couple of people I'mthinking about Christopher, one
of the people we interviewed whohad a really hard time with his
spouse because she did not wanthim to stop working.
He agreed to work part-time asa consultant when he left his
(21:15):
company because she was veryconcerned about their financial
nest egg not diminishing in anyway, and he did it.
He struggled through two yearsof doing this part-time
consulting but he really didn'twant to be doing it.
It was very stressful for him.
He had health issues as welland he finally literally broke
(21:40):
down crying and talking to herand saying I don't want to do
this anymore, and he was able torenegotiate with her and ended
up letting go of work entirely,but that was two years later
than he would have liked, Wow ofwhat, wow.
Tim Hall (22:06):
But she immediately shifted sort of her attitude,
her stance, because before that,as Kathy said, she had really
been putting pressure onChristopher to keep applying for
consulting projects and he justwas finding physically he
couldn't do it.
You know, his body, he washaving trouble concentrating, he
didn't have the energy to do itand he was getting, you know,
(22:30):
pressure from both sides, fromhis wife and from his body, in
opposite directions, andobviously she knew about his
health and she was concernedabout that as well.
And as soon as he broke downand just told her he couldn't do
it, it was very clear to hershe immediately started making
(22:55):
travel plans for things theycould do in retirement plans,
for things they could do inretirement.
So she immediately became agreat ally for him in making
full-time retirement plans.
So we find that that sort ofadaptability and flexibility on
the part of not only theretiring person but family,
(23:17):
spouse, friends, other keypeople in someone's life, that
sort of adaptability is reallyimportant.
Shannon Light (23:27):
That's a really interesting story to see that
shift happen in real time.
But that's great.
It's great to hear that theyboth went through that
acceptance and, as you said tohim, the adaptability with that
transition, because it'sdefinitely a big one, spouses.
Tim Hall (23:49):
But the ones who were married.
You might check me on this,kathy, but as I recall, they
(24:11):
were pretty long-term marriages.
There was one person who hadjust recently divorced and was
in the process of starting a newrelationship during our study.
They ended up getting married.
But a lot of these maritalrelationships were very long and
, I think, very strong and deep.
Kathy Kram (24:29):
Yeah, what I would add to that is how the duration
of this transition that we'retalking about really varies.
In our sample it can be asshort as a year and as long as
five to six years.
We had one person that Teresainterviewed, who you know he
(24:52):
really.
It took him almost seven yearsto let go of full-time work.
It was Jay and then he lost hisspouse and so he had another
adaptability challenge on hisplate.
So you really never know.
I've developed a lot morepatience for myself actually in
(25:16):
listening to all these stories.
You know it's not something ifyou're very results-oriented,
you want to get this transitionover with, but you can't.
It involves a lot of people.
It involves your sense of selfagency and adaptability and
(25:37):
self-awareness to know what youneed and how quickly to move.
Shannon Light (25:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know too, and you shared aspecific example of a company
helping with that transition aswell.
Did you find that that was acommon offering for the retirees
that you spoke to through thecompanies that they were working
(26:10):
with?
Did you see that as a commondenominator, or did not many
companies offer that?
Kathy Kram (26:18):
We only had three companies represented in our
study, but we've gone on to readabout and talk with other
companies Two of our threeactually did have some kind of
(26:48):
part-time options availableofficially.
But more broadly, the idea ofproviding opportunities, just
like you do financial planningfor retirement to do end of our
book that this is an opportunityfor companies to help their
older employees not to just getready financially but also to
(27:10):
consider the four tasks and howthey might begin thinking about
them so they feel more preparedto start the process.
And we also have found in acouple of workshop settings that
people really benefit fromtalking with other people.
So to the extent that companiesoffer seminars like that, it
(27:34):
could be very, very helpful foryou know, facilitating the
retirement transition.
Shannon Light (27:43):
I think that's fantastic.
I feel like that connects toand I'm speaking from personal
experience of the sense ofcommunity with connecting to
your colleagues, or going tocollege learning about your
(28:10):
peers that you'll be in classwith.
So I can absolutely see howthat could benefit somebody
that's gearing up for that bigtransition in their life is
having that sense of communityjoining seminars.
Having that sense of communityjoining seminars Did you see any
(28:31):
out of the ordinary or wildlydifferent approaches to
retirement when you were doingthis study?
Kathy Kram (28:41):
Well, I do think of one of the people featured in
our book I'm forgetting his namenow, tim, maybe you'll remember
who made a decision to move2,000 miles with his wife to be
near his only grandchild, whowas a toddler Lawrence Lawrence
(29:04):
right.
Lawrence Lawrence right.
And Lawrence was very excitedabout this, so excited that he
didn't think that he needed totalk with his son about it
before he made the move.
He just let them know we'recoming.
And it turns out that his sonand daughter-in-law, shortly
(29:25):
after they moved there, theywere having marital problems and
they ended up in an acrimoniousdivorce and the grandson was
not really available to theextent that Lawrence and his
wife had expected.
And this all led to a lot offrustration because he abandoned
(29:49):
all his other interests.
Unlike some of our interviewees, he didn't think, he thought
about, but he never explored inthe new location, teaching
part-time or doing somevolunteer work.
He just wrapped his whole selfin being a grandfather.
And when that didn't work outthe way he wanted, he and his
(30:14):
wife had a drinking problem andit just got worse and it was not
a smooth transition.
He has since gone into recoveryalong with his wife and now,
six years later, he's doingquite well, but it was a lesson
in not really anticipating howrelationships will change, how
(30:37):
other people in your life willbe impacted, and not taking the
time to doing the explorationthat really leads to a solid
life structure, not one that'sdependent on one person or
family.
That's the one I think of.
Tim Hall (30:57):
Well, there's another one that struck me as pretty
unusual.
This was not so much a wildlydifferent thing that the
organization did, but what anindividual did to manage his own
retirement.
He was in one of our threecompanies, and this company,
(31:20):
well, actually, like all three,had been having its financial
ups and downs, and so it got tobe a pretty annual thing.
Every February the companywould announce layoffs and they
would offer separation packagesto people.
And so he was at the age wherehe was beginning to think about
(31:47):
retirement and he, but he wasn'tquite ready to do it, but
financially he knew that hecould have done it if, if he had
to.
So anyway, several monthsbefore this February layoff
(32:18):
period, he had a heart-to-hearttalk with his boss and they had
a good relationship.
And I think, in general, thisis where a good relationship
between an employee and theirboss is really important,
between an employee and theirboss is really important, and I
think there's a lesson formanagers in this that if you
have the kind of relationshipwhere people can come to you and
really own up to some of thethings they're thinking about,
it can be a win-win.
(32:39):
Because what the employee saidwas I know there may be layoffs
coming up in a few months, and Ijust wanted to let you know
that I'm thinking aboutretirement, and if you need
people to separate voluntarily,I'd be happy to take retirement
(33:03):
at this point.
And in fact the boss took himup on that.
He came back to him.
But the guy also knew thecompany's pattern was often they
overestimated how deep the cutshad to be and so they often
ended up hiring people backafter they had separated.
(33:26):
And I guess he was in an areathat was enough in demand that
he thought there was a goodchance that if he left he might
be called back.
And that's exactly whathappened.
So he got a nice retirementpackage.
He had a chance to stop workingfor I don't know a couple of
(33:49):
months and then he was asked tocome back, and I think it was.
He was offered the option ofpart time.
They needed his skill enough sothat they would negotiate, so
he was able to work out his ownkind of retirement transition
process and then he retiredmaybe a year or so year or two
(34:14):
after that.
Shannon Light (34:17):
Wow, both of those stories are interesting
and definitely very, verydifferent.
Yeah very different.
Yeah, I I think that, kathy, tothe story you shared um
Lawrence I believe you said hisname was definitely highlights
the risk of, and potentiallytraumatic consequences of, not
(34:43):
having that clear sense of whatit is you'd like to do and
replace with what you were usedto doing day to day.
But, tim, that story isinteresting because, like you
said, the clear communicationand him at least being in a
(35:04):
place to consider acceleratinghis retirement transition, it's
very interesting.
It's really interesting tothink about how different
everyone's experiences are withit.
And Kathy, I know you touched onit earlier when we were
speaking about going throughthese interviews and speaking
(35:27):
with the 14 retirees how it'sinfluenced your own perspective
on retirement.
Has it changed your plansignificantly or is it more?
You're kind of absorbing whatother people are going through
and it's it's helped you get aclearer sense of what you'd like
(35:49):
to do during this, this periodof life.
Kathy Kram (35:53):
Yeah, I.
I think the major personalinsight for me is that
transitions take time and andwork.
I mean we often joke,retirement takes work, you know,
because it does.
It does take work to be awareof what are my needs now, now
(36:17):
that the book is done and I'vebeen away from the university
for 10 years, what are my needs,university for 10 years, what
are my needs?
And I'm not rushing to answerthose questions as fast as I
might have 10 years ago, becauseI know it's a process.
It's a process of exploring andexperimenting and trying some
(36:41):
things out.
I just became a grandmother forthe first time out.
I just became a grandmother forthe first time.
So that's my ambition, you know, to see how much of my life I'm
going to end up devoting tothat new role.
I'm excited about it.
But I also realized, as welearned from our interviewees,
that parents, the parents of thegrandchild, are very important
(37:06):
figures in what that's going tolook like.
So my relationship is not justwith my granddaughter but also
with my adult children.
That needs to be clarified.
So I think you know being awareof the four tasks and having a
reverence for the fact that theytake time and they take
(37:27):
learning and that talking withother people, which I should
mention, tim and I, we've alwaystalked with each other as we
faced major life transitions,and so we knew, even before we
started the study.
We had been involved inresearch on peer coaching and I
had been studying mentoring, soI knew relationships can always
(37:53):
play an important role, and youknow, I think our study
demonstrated that too.
Tim Hall (38:04):
I think another thing about the four tasks is that
they are related and theycertainly aren't always done
sequentially.
You know, in that order it'soften more circular than linear.
In my case, I was really havingtrouble with the decision to
(38:25):
retire, which we call task one.
And when I hit 65 and I lookedat my financial situation and
we're blessed to have TIAA and areally good pension program at
BU so I realized financially itwould have been possible to
(38:48):
retire at 65, but I was alsoreally having a good time.
You know, I was working withthe MBA program, with a research
center, and I had a chair andsupport for my research and
great dean and associate deansand department chair and all the
(39:12):
conditions were great.
So I thought I couldn't imaginegiving that up and so I was
worried about detaching.
But I also didn't know whatelse I would do instead.
But I also didn't know whatelse I would do instead.
(39:38):
Well, that's the third task.
What's your new retirement lifestructure going to be?
Is to realize.
Well, I had a lot of greatfriends at BU and I love what I
was doing.
I could continue doing a lot ofthat later on.
That's the nice thing aboutacademic life and a lot of
professionals, a lot of peoplein trades.
(39:58):
You know they can keep doingthe kind of work work they're
doing, whether they have anemployer or are doing it
independently.
So what really helped me washaving a chance to do some
exploring and thinking aboutwhat it would be like if I
(40:20):
detached or what else I might do.
And one thing that really helpedme I don't know if BU still
offers this, but the HRdepartment was offering
retirement planning seminars.
The focus was on the financialaspect and it was run by the
(40:41):
TIAA and Fidelityrepresentatives who work with
the university CIAA and Fidelityrepresentatives who work with
the university and it was only ahalf-day program.
It didn't take a lot of time.
I'm sure it was not tooexpensive for the university to
run it.
And all of these financialexperts were stressing, yes, the
(41:05):
money's important, but don'tretire until you know what you
want to do in retirement.
There's a life planning aspectto retirement as well as a
financial planning, and thatreally helped trigger me to
begin exploring okay, well, whatabout life planning?
And so it would be very easy tofollow up a financial planning
(42:07):
seminar like that with a threehour life planning seminar where
help or counseling that theorganization gives for people in
retirement.
But the complication and I knowfrom having been a dean the
administrators can't reallyinitiate that sort of
conversation with an individualfaculty member for legal reasons
.
So it's really up to theemployee to initiate it.
But what the organization cando is offer somebody for a group
(42:33):
of people who can sign upvoluntarily and that can be a
way to get people to startexploring.
And I think in a lot of ourcases what we found was once
that's the initial trigger event, once people start exploring,
(42:53):
then the process often sort ofunfolds naturally.
Shannon Light (43:01):
Yeah, that's really interesting and I think
both of you offered greatinsight into looking at this
transition phase more, but italso helped you understand what
(43:26):
other resources can be helpfulfor others, like that life
coaching or.
I'm sorry, thinking about thelife stage and what you'll do
Instead.
To kind of wrap this up, arethere any other actionable
pieces of advice from your bookthat you, that readers, could
(43:47):
take away?
Kathy Kram (43:51):
Yeah, I wanted to make sure we mentioned what we
coined the phrase for the fourA's, something that came out of
our complete review of our data,that there seem to be four
characteristics or capabilitiesthat people who found a
(44:15):
satisfactory my life structurelooks like, and when there's a
sense of fit between those two,there is definitely more
(44:36):
satisfaction.
So if you think about thereverse of that, when you start
feeling a lack of alignment,that when you start feeling a
lack of alignment as I did whenI turned 65 and I had some
health issues and I was sort ofbeginning to feel burnt out I
knew I had to start recognizingthat poor alignment.
(45:00):
So when that starts happening,that's where the other three A's
kick in Awareness, awareness,being aware of how I'm changing
or what I want now in my lifethat maybe I didn't need or want
before.
And then the second is agency,um, being willing to take action
(45:20):
to, to explore or bring in newactivities and relationships.
And the last one wasadaptability, which Tim has
mentioned a few times today,because things will happen
People will die, health issueswill come about, pandemics will
(45:42):
come, there'll be things thatdisrupt what you currently may
think is a great alignment andthere'll be a need to adapt, but
that's part of every lifetransition.
So those four A's keeping themin mind, we just published an
HBR article on the four A's onthe forays.
(46:04):
It's called Retiring WithoutRegret and that would be a good
follow-up to the book as well.
The book offers a lot ofin-depth cases that most readers
find they really identify withone or more of the cases that
are presented and therefore theycan learn a lot from that
(46:26):
person's story.
Tim Hall (46:29):
And I think we kept hearing from people when we
asked them about how and whenthey made the decision to retire
.
They often said well, I finallyreached the point where it just
seemed like it was time, eitherif the person knew very much
(46:50):
what they wanted to do or if itwas a long process.
But people finally reach apoint where they decide it's
time.
And one of the men that Italked to said he was advised,
based on his own retirementexperience, that when you're an
(47:10):
older person you have threeaspects of old age.
First you have the go-go years,when you're really in good
shape, you can do a lot ofthings.
Then you have the go slow years, when maybe health things come
(47:31):
in, you slow down a little bit.
And then you have the no-goyears and you really want to
retire in time to reallymaximize those go-go years, go
(47:53):
years, and I think most people,if they had any second thoughts
about the timing of theirretirement, they're more likely
to say maybe they should haveretired sooner than to say, well
, maybe I should have keptworking longer.
Shannon Light (48:14):
Yeah, that's really interesting and I think
that and, kathy, thank you forhighlighting that HBR article as
well I think that you clearlycovered many different stories
in this book and I think that,going back to the way beginning,
when you spoke about your ownexperiences, I think that
bringing all of these differentnarratives together helps, will
(48:37):
help many different readers ofthe book.
So, for those that areinterested in reading retiring,
where can they, where can theyfind your book?
Kathy Kram (48:50):
Well, it's on Amazon .
Tim Hall (48:52):
Amazon yeah.
Kathy Kram (48:53):
It was published by Rutledge Don't.
We have a book website now, butI forgot what it's called.
Tim Hall (49:03):
I think it's just retiringbookcom.
Shannon Light (49:06):
Yeah, yes that's right, perfect, well, thank you
both, so so much for joining metoday.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and I appreciate
all of your wonderful insights,and we are very excited to share
this with the Insights atQuestrom audience.
Tim Hall (49:28):
Thank you, shannon, nice talking to you.
JP Matychak (49:31):
Well, that'll wrap things up for this episode of
the Insights at Questrom podcast.
Thanks again to our guestsKathy Cram and Tim Hall and, of
course, thank you to ourInsights at Questrom contributor
, shannon Light.
For more information on thisepisode and all of our previous
episodes, make sure to check usout at insightsbuedu.
(49:52):
So long, thank you.
You, you, you, you.
You.
Hello everybody and welcome into the show and
welcome to season three of theInsights and Question podcast.
I'm JP Matichak.
On this episode, contributorShannon Light chats with Kathy
Cram, professor of Managementand Organizations Emerita, and
Tim Hall, professor ofManagement and Organizations
Emeritus, about theirco-authored book Retiring
(00:40):
Creating a Life that Works foryou.
The discussion dives intoretirement as a major life
transition, one that goes beyondfinancial and health concerns
to address deeper psychological,social and structural
challenges.
Professors Cram and Hall shareinsights from their book, which
(01:01):
is based on detailed retirementstories of 14 individuals and
over 200 interviews.
Here's Shannon Light.
Shannon Light (01:12):
I'm very excited to be sitting down today with
Kathy Cram and Tim Hall todiscuss their book Retiring
Creating a Life that Works foryou.
Kathy is the RC ShipleyProfessor in Management Emerita
at Boston University's QuestromSchool of Business.
Her primary interests are inthe areas of adult development,
(01:33):
relational learning, mentoring,diversity issues and executive
development, leadership andorganizational change.
Processes Kathy, thanks so muchfor joining me today.
Processes Kathy, thanks so muchfor joining me today.
I am also here with Tim Hall,who is the Morton H and
Charlotte Friedman Professor ofManagement Emeritus at Boston
(01:53):
University's Questrom School ofBusiness.
Tim is also the foundingdirector of the Boston
University Executive DevelopmentRoundtable and has also served
as Acting Dean and AssociateDean for Faculty Development, as
well as the Faculty Directorfor MBA Programs at Questrom.
Tim, thank you for joining ustoday.
Tim Hall (02:14):
Thank you, shannon, nice to be here.
Shannon Light (02:18):
I'm very excited to learn more about your book
Retiring Creating a Life thatWorks for you your book Retiring
Creating a Life that Works foryou.
Congratulations on thepublication in October 2024.
I know it's been a veryexciting time for you both, so I
look forward to learning moreabout how this book came to be.
(02:38):
I figured best to start withlearning how this book emerged
and really who it's for.
Kathy Kram (02:49):
Well, I think I'll let you, tim, start this out,
because you're the one whoinvited me to lunch at
Bertucci's.
Tim Hall (02:58):
Well, I was thinking you started it because you
started making plans forretirement a year or so before I
did, and that's what first gotme thinking about retirement.
And I guess there may be apoint there that this is very
personal for all of us on theauthor team and we weren't all
(03:21):
retired when we started theproject.
Only one of us was Lottie Balin, I guess.
For me I was interested indoing a study of late career
development.
Most of my research has been oncareers and how people develop
(03:43):
in their careers and what kindof transitions they go through,
and I had done some research onolder workers and a little bit
on retirement.
But I was interested in thepossibility of doing a study,
maybe sort of an observationalstudy, where it involves
(04:04):
tracking my own and teammates'experiences, as we're talking to
other people as well.
But so I had asked Kathy if shewould be interested in that as
well, and originally we weretalking about doing a study with
(04:31):
our spouses.
Kathy's husband, Peter, was aprofessor in the sociology
department at BU and my wife,Marcy Crary, was a professor at
Bentley in the managementdepartment, and so we were
thinking about doing somethingtogether as a foursome.
And then I had a call fromTeresa Amabile at Harvard
(04:54):
Business School and we've beenfriends for a long time and she
said she was getting ready to doa study of retirement and could
we get together and talk.
She just wanted to bounce someideas around, so we arranged to
get together at Bertucci's therewas a Bertucci's in Kenmore
Square at that time and I saidwell, I've been talking to Kathy
(05:20):
and Teresa knows Kathy.
And I said how would it be if Iinvited Kathy to join us?
Teresa said great, and as wetalked we realized what we want
to do.
Both projects were prettysimilar and so we said well, why
don't we think about doingsomething together?
(05:43):
So that's really how it gotstarted.
Kathy Kram (05:46):
Yeah, and I think you know.
An important add to that is, asTim mentioned, all of us were
considering retirement.
One was retired.
The reason I was so excited isthat all my research throughout
my career has always had anautobiographical component, and
I was getting ready to retire soI figured what better way to do
(06:11):
that than to find a project onretirement.
So it was very timely for allof us and an important part of
how the book came about was wedid examine our own experiences
as we were doing the research.
Tim and Teresa actually wrote apaper on self-referential
(06:35):
research.
We really believe that our workwas enhanced by having gone
through the process ourselves.
So we're all now officiallyretired from our universities.
Well, congratulations.
(06:55):
Yeah, that is.
Shannon Light (07:00):
I think that's a really important aspect to this
book is that you all can speakto your own personal experiences
, and I think that willdefinitely help the audience
resonate with the informationthat you cover in the book.
Which of retirement journey Didyou find that these are common
(07:29):
with the retirement journey, ordid you see a lot of overlap,
with people struggling with oneof those tasks more than others?
Were there trends?
Kathy Kram (07:44):
Yeah, should we first say what they are?
Shannon Light (07:48):
Yes, that would be great.
Kathy Kram (07:49):
Yeah.
So we identified across all 120people that we interviewed and
these were people in thecorporate world from three
different companies, differentcompanies.
They all had to address fourtasks.
(08:10):
We call them developmentaltasks because they require
learning and exploration andusually change in some aspect of
the self as they go about thiswork.
So, obviously, the first taskis making the decision to retire
, and when people think aboutretirement, that's what they
(08:32):
usually think about and theybase it on financial.
You know, do I have thefinancial readiness?
Do I have health requirements,that readiness?
Do I have health requirementsthat cause me to want to work
(08:52):
less?
Whatever it may be?
But rarely do people thinkabout what comes after the
decision to retire.
And the second, third and fourthtasks are all about what comes
after.
The second one is detachingfrom work.
Really, you know, most of us,both in academia and the
corporate world, have strongidentification with our work.
(09:13):
So there's a identity changethat comes about, and the second
task is about navigating thatidentity change and usually
identity loss as well.
The third task is aboutexploring and experimenting with
(09:34):
building a new life structure,and the life structure is all
the activities and relationshipsand contexts that are currently
part of our life.
When you take work out of thatas a central organizing concept,
there's a lot of uncertainty.
What do I do with those 40 to60 hours a week I use working?
(09:58):
So that's kind of theintroduction of a big piece of
the transition to again, as Timand I are discovering as we
(10:28):
finish this big 10-year project,the question is, what will we
be doing next?
So everybody has to go throughthose tasks.
The question is there's widevariation in how they go about
it.
Tim, did you want to add tothat?
Tim Hall (10:47):
No, I think that's a good description.
It sounds sort of obvious whenyou mention them that well, yeah
, of course you have to make thedecision to retire, of course
you have to detach andeverything.
But it's a whole lot easiersaid than done.
Shannon Light (11:05):
I'm sure that's something, and, of course,
somebody who is far fromretiring.
Even now, the idea of detachingfrom work, both tangibly and
psychologically, seems like avery significant hurdle.
Tim Hall (11:27):
Yeah.
Shannon Light (11:29):
During these studies, did you find that
people had strategies that wereeffective for navigating this
phase?
Kathy Kram (11:40):
Yeah, and I think there are a number of different
strategies that people use.
The one that comes to my mindbecause it's what I did and we
heard from several people I'mthinking about one of the people
we interviewed.
We interviewed 14 people many,many times, so we got
(12:02):
longitudinal data on them, andone of the people we interviewed
said that he knew from aprevious career ending and
transition that having a landingspot was really helpful,
something you're moving towards,a project that excites you in
(12:23):
some way beyond the work thatyou can replace it with.
In my case, and I think inTim's case too, it was this
project and another project thatI had going that was going to
go on even after I retired fromthe university.
So that's one strategy have inmind something that you can
(12:45):
really put yourself into the wayyou did into work, or you can
express the same talents andskills that you did when you
were working that you cantransfer to Other people just
welcome the freedom of time thatcomes with letting go of
(13:05):
full-time work, and some of ourparticipants were celebrating
not having to get up to an alarmclock, having more quiet time,
reflective time, time to readnovels you know, really
dependent on the individual andwhat they saw as their values
(13:28):
and priorities.
Tim Hall (13:31):
I think some people try to have specific plans in
mind for retiring, like thelanding spot.
A guy named Walter in our studyis the one Kathy's talking
about for that, and Iinterviewed him.
(13:52):
And also he had been in themilitary.
He was a 20-year militaryofficer, so he had already had
the experience of retiring, sohe had learned from that
experience.
And so other people, though,didn't necessarily feel the need
(14:16):
to have specific plans.
They had more of a process theywere going to use, and one of
the people took advantage of hiscompany's program, which was a
transition into retirementprogram where they could sign up
(14:37):
and have a year and a half at areduced workload, so they would
have one day a week off.
He was an engineer and managerand he would take Fridays off,
(14:58):
was very active in his religiouscommunity, and a big part of
the work in the religiouscommunity involved discernment,
and he had great faith that hewould be able to use this
(15:19):
process of reflection anddiscernment on Fridays.
He was planning that's how hewas planning to spend his
Fridays.
That would be his day to sortof figure out what he would be
doing in retirement, what hewould be doing in retirement,
(15:45):
and again, it didn't quite workout that way, because his
daughter had just had a baby, alittle baby boy, and when she
knew he was going to be home onFridays free, she said dad, how
would you feel about babysittingon Fridays, or anyway?
So he he wasn't quite sureabout that, but what he decided
was that he would, uh, spendhalf the day with his new
(16:09):
grandson and then half the dayin his discernment practice, um,
and that worked out very wellfor him, and so it was also an
experiment with the new role ofgrandfather.
This was his first grandchildand he surprised himself at how
(16:32):
much he loved it, and so part ofwhat he discerned in that
process was that he could reallysee how having family life be a
bigger part of his life, thatcould help take up that space
that had been the work part ofhis life.
When he first started doing thetransition program, he'd be
(16:55):
home on Fridays, and he wasreally daunted at the absence of
his engineering self and he wasasking himself well, who will I
be if I'm not an engineer?
But as the time went by and hegot to know his grandson and got
(17:17):
to realize how much he lovedbeing together with him, then he
realized okay, now I can see.
This other part of my life isgoing to grow.
Kathy Kram (17:30):
And then another contrast to that individual are
some of the people one of themthat I interviewed, simon, who
he had so many hobbies gardeningand hiking and political action
and active member of his church.
(17:52):
He couldn't wait to stop workingso that he could just funnel
more of his time and energy intothose other things that he
loved.
So his transition for some wasvery short.
Like him, within a year he feltquite settled in his new life,
which didn't change very much,except he did take up a
(18:16):
volunteer job where he could usesome of his computer and
engineering skills to serveunderserved populations and he
really found meaning in that.
So it depends, really depends,on the opportunities.
We talk about the self beingthe person's identities and
(18:38):
motives and priorities, and thenthe life structure, which are
all the activities andrelationships importantly, like
a grandchild in one's life, andhow those shift as the decision
to retire is implemented.
And it's kind of a dancebetween those two the self on
(19:02):
the one hand, who's changingidentity right, letting go of
work and maybe bringing in somenew identities like grandparent,
and the life structure, whichloses work and may lose some
relationships like goodcolleagues and friends that one
had at work.
Shannon Light (19:25):
It's to that story of having the grandchild
and how big of a role thatturned into for for this retiree
.
It seems that family, friends,colleagues are a big support
system when it comes totransitioning into that
(19:47):
retirement phrase.
Are there specific actions orbehaviors that you observed when
speaking with the 14 retireesand doing the many interviews
that they expressed helped maketheir process easier or their
transition easier?
Kathy Kram (20:08):
We clearly saw a pattern of people who were aware
of the impact of this verypersonal decision on people in
their family and in their lives.
When they were aware that it wasgoing to impact them, they had
an easier time because theycould kind of renegotiate
expectations with those familymembers and friends.
(20:33):
And one of the major themes thatcame out of our analysis was
the importance of relationshipsand being proactive or agentic
about renegotiating expectationsand making relationships really
(20:54):
a source of support.
We had a couple of people I'mthinking about Christopher, one
of the people we interviewed whohad a really hard time with his
spouse because she did not wanthim to stop working.
He agreed to work part-time asa consultant when he left his
(21:15):
company because she was veryconcerned about their financial
nest egg not diminishing in anyway, and he did it.
He struggled through two yearsof doing this part-time
consulting but he really didn'twant to be doing it.
It was very stressful for him.
He had health issues as welland he finally literally broke
(21:40):
down crying and talking to herand saying I don't want to do
this anymore, and he was able torenegotiate with her and ended
up letting go of work entirely,but that was two years later
than he would have liked, Wow ofwhat, wow.
Tim Hall (22:06):
But she immediately shifted sort of her attitude,
her stance, because before that,as Kathy said, she had really
been putting pressure onChristopher to keep applying for
consulting projects and he justwas finding physically he
couldn't do it.
You know, his body, he washaving trouble concentrating, he
didn't have the energy to do itand he was getting, you know,
(22:30):
pressure from both sides, fromhis wife and from his body, in
opposite directions, andobviously she knew about his
health and she was concernedabout that as well.
And as soon as he broke downand just told her he couldn't do
it, it was very clear to hershe immediately started making
(22:55):
travel plans for things theycould do in retirement plans,
for things they could do inretirement.
So she immediately became agreat ally for him in making
full-time retirement plans.
So we find that that sort ofadaptability and flexibility on
the part of not only theretiring person but family,
(23:17):
spouse, friends, other keypeople in someone's life, that
sort of adaptability is reallyimportant.
Shannon Light (23:27):
That's a really interesting story to see that
shift happen in real time.
But that's great.
It's great to hear that theyboth went through that
acceptance and, as you said tohim, the adaptability with that
transition, because it'sdefinitely a big one, spouses.
Tim Hall (23:49):
But the ones who were married.
You might check me on this,kathy, but as I recall, they
(24:11):
were pretty long-term marriages.
There was one person who hadjust recently divorced and was
in the process of starting a newrelationship during our study.
They ended up getting married.
But a lot of these maritalrelationships were very long and
, I think, very strong and deep.
Kathy Kram (24:29):
Yeah, what I would add to that is how the duration
of this transition that we'retalking about really varies.
In our sample it can be asshort as a year and as long as
five to six years.
We had one person that Teresainterviewed, who you know he
(24:52):
really.
It took him almost seven yearsto let go of full-time work.
It was Jay and then he lost hisspouse and so he had another
adaptability challenge on hisplate.
So you really never know.
I've developed a lot morepatience for myself actually in
(25:16):
listening to all these stories.
You know it's not something ifyou're very results-oriented,
you want to get this transitionover with, but you can't.
It involves a lot of people.
It involves your sense of selfagency and adaptability and
(25:37):
self-awareness to know what youneed and how quickly to move.
Shannon Light (25:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
I know too, and you shared aspecific example of a company
helping with that transition aswell.
Did you find that that was acommon offering for the retirees
that you spoke to through thecompanies that they were working
(26:10):
with?
Did you see that as a commondenominator, or did not many
companies offer that?
Kathy Kram (26:18):
We only had three companies represented in our
study, but we've gone on to readabout and talk with other
companies Two of our threeactually did have some kind of
(26:48):
part-time options availableofficially.
But more broadly, the idea ofproviding opportunities, just
like you do financial planningfor retirement to do end of our
book that this is an opportunityfor companies to help their
older employees not to just getready financially but also to
(27:10):
consider the four tasks and howthey might begin thinking about
them so they feel more preparedto start the process.
And we also have found in acouple of workshop settings that
people really benefit fromtalking with other people.
So to the extent that companiesoffer seminars like that, it
(27:34):
could be very, very helpful foryou know, facilitating the
retirement transition.
Shannon Light (27:43):
I think that's fantastic.
I feel like that connects toand I'm speaking from personal
experience of the sense ofcommunity with connecting to
your colleagues, or going tocollege learning about your
(28:10):
peers that you'll be in classwith.
So I can absolutely see howthat could benefit somebody
that's gearing up for that bigtransition in their life is
having that sense of communityjoining seminars.
Having that sense of communityjoining seminars Did you see any
(28:31):
out of the ordinary or wildlydifferent approaches to
retirement when you were doingthis study?
Kathy Kram (28:41):
Well, I do think of one of the people featured in
our book I'm forgetting his namenow, tim, maybe you'll remember
who made a decision to move2,000 miles with his wife to be
near his only grandchild, whowas a toddler Lawrence Lawrence
(29:04):
right.
Lawrence Lawrence right.
And Lawrence was very excitedabout this, so excited that he
didn't think that he needed totalk with his son about it
before he made the move.
He just let them know we'recoming.
And it turns out that his sonand daughter-in-law, shortly
(29:25):
after they moved there, theywere having marital problems and
they ended up in an acrimoniousdivorce and the grandson was
not really available to theextent that Lawrence and his
wife had expected.
And this all led to a lot offrustration because he abandoned
(29:49):
all his other interests.
Unlike some of our interviewees, he didn't think, he thought
about, but he never explored inthe new location, teaching
part-time or doing somevolunteer work.
He just wrapped his whole selfin being a grandfather.
And when that didn't work outthe way he wanted, he and his
(30:14):
wife had a drinking problem andit just got worse and it was not
a smooth transition.
He has since gone into recoveryalong with his wife and now,
six years later, he's doingquite well, but it was a lesson
in not really anticipating howrelationships will change, how
(30:37):
other people in your life willbe impacted, and not taking the
time to doing the explorationthat really leads to a solid
life structure, not one that'sdependent on one person or
family.
That's the one I think of.
Tim Hall (30:57):
Well, there's another one that struck me as pretty
unusual.
This was not so much a wildlydifferent thing that the
organization did, but what anindividual did to manage his own
retirement.
He was in one of our threecompanies, and this company,
(31:20):
well, actually, like all three,had been having its financial
ups and downs, and so it got tobe a pretty annual thing.
Every February the companywould announce layoffs and they
would offer separation packagesto people.
And so he was at the age wherehe was beginning to think about
(31:47):
retirement and he, but he wasn'tquite ready to do it, but
financially he knew that hecould have done it if, if he had
to.
So anyway, several monthsbefore this February layoff
(32:18):
period, he had a heart-to-hearttalk with his boss and they had
a good relationship.
And I think, in general, thisis where a good relationship
between an employee and theirboss is really important,
between an employee and theirboss is really important, and I
think there's a lesson formanagers in this that if you
have the kind of relationshipwhere people can come to you and
really own up to some of thethings they're thinking about,
it can be a win-win.
(32:39):
Because what the employee saidwas I know there may be layoffs
coming up in a few months, and Ijust wanted to let you know
that I'm thinking aboutretirement, and if you need
people to separate voluntarily,I'd be happy to take retirement
(33:03):
at this point.
And in fact the boss took himup on that.
He came back to him.
But the guy also knew thecompany's pattern was often they
overestimated how deep the cutshad to be and so they often
ended up hiring people backafter they had separated.
(33:26):
And I guess he was in an areathat was enough in demand that
he thought there was a goodchance that if he left he might
be called back.
And that's exactly whathappened.
So he got a nice retirementpackage.
He had a chance to stop workingfor I don't know a couple of
(33:49):
months and then he was asked tocome back, and I think it was.
He was offered the option ofpart time.
They needed his skill enough sothat they would negotiate, so
he was able to work out his ownkind of retirement transition
process and then he retiredmaybe a year or so year or two
(34:14):
after that.
Shannon Light (34:17):
Wow, both of those stories are interesting
and definitely very, verydifferent.
Yeah very different.
Yeah, I I think that, kathy, tothe story you shared um
Lawrence I believe you said hisname was definitely highlights
the risk of, and potentiallytraumatic consequences of, not
(34:43):
having that clear sense of whatit is you'd like to do and
replace with what you were usedto doing day to day.
But, tim, that story isinteresting because, like you
said, the clear communicationand him at least being in a
(35:04):
place to consider acceleratinghis retirement transition, it's
very interesting.
It's really interesting tothink about how different
everyone's experiences are withit.
And Kathy, I know you touched onit earlier when we were
speaking about going throughthese interviews and speaking
(35:27):
with the 14 retirees how it'sinfluenced your own perspective
on retirement.
Has it changed your plansignificantly or is it more?
You're kind of absorbing whatother people are going through
and it's it's helped you get aclearer sense of what you'd like
(35:49):
to do during this, this periodof life.
Kathy Kram (35:53):
Yeah, I.
I think the major personalinsight for me is that
transitions take time and andwork.
I mean we often joke,retirement takes work, you know,
because it does.
It does take work to be awareof what are my needs now, now
(36:17):
that the book is done and I'vebeen away from the university
for 10 years, what are my needs,university for 10 years, what
are my needs?
And I'm not rushing to answerthose questions as fast as I
might have 10 years ago, becauseI know it's a process.
It's a process of exploring andexperimenting and trying some
(36:41):
things out.
I just became a grandmother forthe first time out.
I just became a grandmother forthe first time.
So that's my ambition, you know, to see how much of my life I'm
going to end up devoting tothat new role.
I'm excited about it.
But I also realized, as welearned from our interviewees,
that parents, the parents of thegrandchild, are very important
(37:06):
figures in what that's going tolook like.
So my relationship is not justwith my granddaughter but also
with my adult children.
That needs to be clarified.
So I think you know being awareof the four tasks and having a
reverence for the fact that theytake time and they take
(37:27):
learning and that talking withother people, which I should
mention, tim and I, we've alwaystalked with each other as we
faced major life transitions,and so we knew, even before we
started the study.
We had been involved inresearch on peer coaching and I
had been studying mentoring, soI knew relationships can always
(37:53):
play an important role, and youknow, I think our study
demonstrated that too.
Tim Hall (38:04):
I think another thing about the four tasks is that
they are related and theycertainly aren't always done
sequentially.
You know, in that order it'soften more circular than linear.
In my case, I was really havingtrouble with the decision to
(38:25):
retire, which we call task one.
And when I hit 65 and I lookedat my financial situation and
we're blessed to have TIAA and areally good pension program at
BU so I realized financially itwould have been possible to
(38:48):
retire at 65, but I was alsoreally having a good time.
You know, I was working withthe MBA program, with a research
center, and I had a chair andsupport for my research and
great dean and associate deansand department chair and all the
(39:12):
conditions were great.
So I thought I couldn't imaginegiving that up and so I was
worried about detaching.
But I also didn't know whatelse I would do instead.
But I also didn't know whatelse I would do instead.
(39:38):
Well, that's the third task.
What's your new retirement lifestructure going to be?
Is to realize.
Well, I had a lot of greatfriends at BU and I love what I
was doing.
I could continue doing a lot ofthat later on.
That's the nice thing aboutacademic life and a lot of
professionals, a lot of peoplein trades.
(39:58):
You know they can keep doingthe kind of work work they're
doing, whether they have anemployer or are doing it
independently.
So what really helped me washaving a chance to do some
exploring and thinking aboutwhat it would be like if I
(40:20):
detached or what else I might do.
And one thing that really helpedme I don't know if BU still
offers this, but the HRdepartment was offering
retirement planning seminars.
The focus was on the financialaspect and it was run by the
(40:41):
TIAA and Fidelityrepresentatives who work with
the university CIAA and Fidelityrepresentatives who work with
the university and it was only ahalf-day program.
It didn't take a lot of time.
I'm sure it was not tooexpensive for the university to
run it.
And all of these financialexperts were stressing, yes, the
(41:05):
money's important, but don'tretire until you know what you
want to do in retirement.
There's a life planning aspectto retirement as well as a
financial planning, and thatreally helped trigger me to
begin exploring okay, well, whatabout life planning?
And so it would be very easy tofollow up a financial planning
(42:07):
seminar like that with a threehour life planning seminar where
help or counseling that theorganization gives for people in
retirement.
But the complication and I knowfrom having been a dean the
administrators can't reallyinitiate that sort of
conversation with an individualfaculty member for legal reasons
.
So it's really up to theemployee to initiate it.
But what the organization cando is offer somebody for a group
(42:33):
of people who can sign upvoluntarily and that can be a
way to get people to startexploring.
And I think in a lot of ourcases what we found was once
that's the initial trigger event, once people start exploring,
(42:53):
then the process often sort ofunfolds naturally.
Shannon Light (43:01):
Yeah, that's really interesting and I think
both of you offered greatinsight into looking at this
transition phase more, but italso helped you understand what
(43:26):
other resources can be helpfulfor others, like that life
coaching or.
I'm sorry, thinking about thelife stage and what you'll do
Instead.
To kind of wrap this up, arethere any other actionable
pieces of advice from your bookthat you, that readers, could
(43:47):
take away?
Kathy Kram (43:51):
Yeah, I wanted to make sure we mentioned what we
coined the phrase for the fourA's, something that came out of
our complete review of our data,that there seem to be four
characteristics or capabilitiesthat people who found a
(44:15):
satisfactory my life structurelooks like, and when there's a
sense of fit between those two,there is definitely more
(44:36):
satisfaction.
So if you think about thereverse of that, when you start
feeling a lack of alignment,that when you start feeling a
lack of alignment as I did whenI turned 65 and I had some
health issues and I was sort ofbeginning to feel burnt out I
knew I had to start recognizingthat poor alignment.
(45:00):
So when that starts happening,that's where the other three A's
kick in Awareness, awareness,being aware of how I'm changing
or what I want now in my lifethat maybe I didn't need or want
before.
And then the second is agency,um, being willing to take action
(45:20):
to, to explore or bring in newactivities and relationships.
And the last one wasadaptability, which Tim has
mentioned a few times today,because things will happen
People will die, health issueswill come about, pandemics will
(45:42):
come, there'll be things thatdisrupt what you currently may
think is a great alignment andthere'll be a need to adapt, but
that's part of every lifetransition.
So those four A's keeping themin mind, we just published an
HBR article on the four A's onthe forays.
(46:04):
It's called Retiring WithoutRegret and that would be a good
follow-up to the book as well.
The book offers a lot ofin-depth cases that most readers
find they really identify withone or more of the cases that
are presented and therefore theycan learn a lot from that
(46:26):
person's story.
Tim Hall (46:29):
And I think we kept hearing from people when we
asked them about how and whenthey made the decision to retire
.
They often said well, I finallyreached the point where it just
seemed like it was time, eitherif the person knew very much
(46:50):
what they wanted to do or if itwas a long process.
But people finally reach apoint where they decide it's
time.
And one of the men that Italked to said he was advised,
based on his own retirementexperience, that when you're an
(47:10):
older person you have threeaspects of old age.
First you have the go-go years,when you're really in good
shape, you can do a lot ofthings.
Then you have the go slow years, when maybe health things come
(47:31):
in, you slow down a little bit.
And then you have the no-goyears and you really want to
retire in time to reallymaximize those go-go years, go
(47:53):
years, and I think most people,if they had any second thoughts
about the timing of theirretirement, they're more likely
to say maybe they should haveretired sooner than to say, well
, maybe I should have keptworking longer.
Shannon Light (48:14):
Yeah, that's really interesting and I think
that and, kathy, thank you forhighlighting that HBR article as
well I think that you clearlycovered many different stories
in this book and I think that,going back to the way beginning,
when you spoke about your ownexperiences, I think that
bringing all of these differentnarratives together helps, will
(48:37):
help many different readers ofthe book.
So, for those that areinterested in reading retiring,
where can they, where can theyfind your book?
Kathy Kram (48:50):
Well, it's on Amazon .
Tim Hall (48:52):
Amazon yeah.
Kathy Kram (48:53):
It was published by Rutledge Don't.
We have a book website now, butI forgot what it's called.
Tim Hall (49:03):
I think it's just retiringbookcom.
Shannon Light (49:06):
Yeah, yes that's right, perfect, well, thank you
both, so so much for joining metoday.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and I appreciate
all of your wonderful insights,and we are very excited to share
this with the Insights atQuestrom audience.
Tim Hall (49:28):
Thank you, shannon, nice talking to you.
JP Matychak (49:31):
Well, that'll wrap things up for this episode of
the Insights at Questrom podcast.
Thanks again to our guestsKathy Cram and Tim Hall and, of
course, thank you to ourInsights at Questrom contributor
, shannon Light.
For more information on thisepisode and all of our previous
episodes, make sure to check usout at insightsbuedu.
(49:52):
So long, thank you.
You, you, you, you.
You.
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