March 26, 2024 • 27 mins
Have you ever felt like an outsider, struggling to find your footing in a world that seems to resist your every step? Professor Michel Anteby, our esteemed guest for today's episode, knows that feeling all too well. In our engaging conversation, he shares how his personal battles with being a minority have equipped him with a unique resilience, one that he has applied to his field research in some of the most secretive and resistant organizations. From the guarded corridors of Disneyland to the strategic planning rooms of Harvard Business School, Professor Anteby's tales offer a fresh perspective on viewing resistance as an ally rather than a foe.
As the author of "The Interloper: Lessons from Resistance in the Field," Professor Anteby emphasizes that the walls we encounter in new environments are not just barriers but windows into the underlying cultural and organizational fabric. His experiences in a French aeronautic factory and with the TSA reveal the unexpected value in the pushback we face. Throughout this episode, Anteby weaves a narrative that transforms resistance from an insurmountable obstacle into a powerful current that, when navigated skillfully, propels us toward greater understanding and personal growth. Join us as we uncover the winds of wisdom that can lift us to new heights in our research, as well as personal and professional journeys.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
JP Matychak (00:26):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
the Insights at Questrom podcast.
I'm JP Matychak, your host, andjoining me, as always, is my
co-host, Shannon Light.
Shannon, how are you today?
Shannon Light (00:38):
Great, thank you.
JP Matychak (00:39):
All right.
Well, we've got another greatepisode for today, and it's
another installment of theQuestrom Book Club.
Michelle Anteby is professor ofmanagement and organizations at
Boston University's QuestromSchool of Business and Sociology
at Boston University's Collegeof Arts and Sciences.
He also co-leads BostonUniversity's Precarity Lab.
His research looks at howindividuals relate to their work
(01:03):
, their occupations and theorganizations they belong to.
He examines more specificallythe practices people engage in
at work that help them sustaintheir chosen cultures or
identities.
In doing so, his researchcontributes to a better
understanding of how thesecultures and identities come to
be and manifest themselves.
He's the author of the upcomingbook the Interloper Lessons
(01:25):
from Resistance in the Field.
The book discusses the conceptof resistance, the bane of all
field researchers, who are oftenviewed as interlopers.
When they enter a community andstart asking questions, people
obstruct investigations and hideevidence.
They shelve complaints, silencedissent and even forget their
own past and deny having done so.
(01:47):
So how can researchers learnabout a community when its
members resist so strongly?
Well, Michel has the answer.
Michel, welcome.
Michel Anteby (01:56):
Thank you, jp.
Thank you, shannon, it's greatto be with you today.
JP Matychak (02:01):
So, Michel, you yourself are a field researcher
and have been for most of yourcareer, right, I mean, you make
a living on it, right?
So talk to us a little bitabout what inspired you to write
the Interloper.
You know what were some of thecentral themes or messages that
you really wanted to conveythrough this book.
Michel Anteby (02:21):
So there are two main reasons that inspired me.
One are my students and theother are my own experience
doing field research, as youmentioned.
First, my students, becauseI've worked with many people who
try to access a firm, agovernment agency or even a
non-profit and only rarely dodoors open up, so they complain
(02:46):
to me very often that they can'tgain access.
I personally have learned thatrefocusing our attention on the
resistance we get can be veryproductive and that we can learn
from these failures.
So that's what I wanted toconvey to these people I've
(03:07):
worked with.
And the second reason is thatI've tended to study a lot of
settings or topics that resistto be clear.
So, for instance, companieslike Disneyland, harvard
Business School or theTransportation Security
Administration so very secretivesettings or topics that many
(03:30):
would consider off limitsghostwriting a memoir for others
or trying to secure humancadavers for medical education,
for medical education.
And all this has led me to havea good kind of you know grasp
of what to do when people don'treally want to let you in.
(03:51):
Wow.
JP Matychak (03:53):
Okay.
Shannon Light (03:54):
Could you elaborate on how you explore the
concept of resistance, and Iknow in your book you offer many
specific examples.
Could you kind of go into moredetail about an example there?
Of course, yeah.
Michel Anteby (04:08):
So you know, what I love is that people tend to
be frightened of resistance andnot want to deal with it.
The main message of the book isthat resistance can actually be
very beneficial.
You can learn a lot from howyou get pushed back.
So, if there's you know, onething that I hope readers get
(04:31):
from it is that there are waymore possibilities when dealing
with resistance than anythingelse.
You asked about specificexamples, so I'll give you one,
but I'm happy to share others aswell.
I think every form ofresistance is telling.
(04:53):
When I was conducting, forinstance, some research in a
French aeronautic factory at thetime, like today, I was
affiliated with a US universityand plant members were kind of
puzzled why a US academic wouldwant to learn about their life.
You know, they were suspiciouseven.
I would say, you know, was I aspy?
Something even more ominous,who knows?
(05:14):
And that proved reallydifficult for me when I was
trying to gain access.
I also at that time was able toaffiliate myself with a French
university and gradually Idiscovered that my French
affiliation actually helped alot.
I wasn't sure why, but it did.
Unbeknown to me at that time,the specific plant I was
(05:39):
studying had a very murky past.
In fact it had collaboratedwith foreigners in order to
achieve the success it had todayin France.
So you know, to put it verybluntly, they had hired Nazi
scientists after World War II tohelp build French capacity and
(06:04):
then later on in the 70s, theyworked with General Electric, an
American company, to kind ofdevelop their expertise.
So by presenting myself asAmerican, I was kind of
triggering this vague sentimentof unpatriotic behavior that
really rubbed them the wrong waybut was also very diagnostic of
(06:29):
what mattered most to them.
Shannon Light (06:33):
And I know you use the TSA.
You go into a chapter about TSA.
Can you talk about that?
That one I thought wasinteresting.
Oh, sure, yeah, I'm happy to.
Michel Anteby (06:42):
Talk about that, that one I thought was
interesting?
Oh sure, yeah, I'm happy to.
So TSA was very different andevery field has its own
different kind of tension.
So remember, the French factorywas about how patriotic they
were and the problem was myUS-ness or Farness.
TSA has a very different issue,or at least at the time we were
studying it.
(07:02):
They were concerned by beingmonitored by outsiders, because
there were rumors at the timethat TSA employees might be
stealing from customers' luggage.
So this was the early yearsright of TSA, and they had
(07:23):
installed cameras on every lanebecause that was the way to
control for that.
So when I approached them, Iwas working with a doctoral
student at that time who went toan airport, unnamed I'll say
and was trying to see what theydid.
Within 10 minutes of her beingthere, they noticed her watching
(07:48):
them, they called state police.
She got detained and had toexplain what she was doing and
at that time I thought you know,this is just odd, but let's
continue but the fact that shewas picking up on the idea of
observing them and that's whatbothered them was really telling
(08:09):
about what they were concernedabout.
Employees at TSA were concernedabout being over-monitored by
management, even outsiders, andthe resistance she faced and we
faced, in that sense, was awonderful signal, you know, to
guide our discovery.
Shannon Light (08:30):
And I know you've mentioned resistance now a
couple of times why should wecare about it?
Why not?
Okay, I'll give a better answer.
Michel Anteby (08:43):
Resistance is the social mechanism that a group
deploys whether it's a firm, youknow, a family or government
agency to maintain the statusquo.
JP Matychak (08:54):
Yeah, and.
Michel Anteby (08:55):
I love resistance because it tells us what the
status quo is about.
So if we really pay attentionto how people push back, it
tells us what they want tomaintain in place, and that's
why resistance is a wonderful,informative kind of tool, a
diagnostic tool, to help usunderstand what matters to
(09:16):
individuals.
Does that capture it to you?
JP Matychak (09:19):
Yeah, so you know, you as a sociologist, in a lot
of what you do and you're in abusiness school, and so you
yourself can, can may havealready felt like an interloper
yourself in some instances, oryou know.
So talk a little bit about howyou have worked to overcome some
(09:45):
of those obstacles.
You know in here in your careeras an academic, but even in the
business world, right, you knowyou are by nature trying to
study people, which can makepeople feel anxious, right, and
can make them feel resistant.
So what have you?
What methods have you employedduring your career that you
(10:05):
brought to this book that youhope others can, tactics that
others can bring to yeah, thanks, JP.
Michel Anteby (10:11):
So first to set the record straight, I think
sociologists belong in businessschools.
JP Matychak (10:16):
Great.
.
Michel Anteby (10:18):
Maybe there are fewer sociologists than other
types of economics or economicstrained people.
We all have our place.
Economics, trained people yeah,we all have our place.
What I've learned is you knowyou have to like, embrace the
resistance you face and kind ofrun with it, so not view it as
(10:50):
an obstacle, pass as French thanbeing an American, and I wasn't
entirely sure why, but I feltit.
And I did that when I wasworking on a different project
that entailed interviews withghostwriters of memoirs.
My collaborator and Idiscovered that ghostwriters
(11:14):
didn't think of themselves atall as ghostwriters, despite the
overwhelming evidence that theyhad ghostwritten books right.
So we learned quickly not tocall them ghostwriters but to
call them co-writers, which theypreferred.
And these kind of adaptationstrategies to pass, to accept,
(11:34):
to run with it even if you don'tfully understand why at that
time I think are good ways forfield researchers to deal with
resistance.
To deal with resistance.
JP Matychak (11:45):
So it seems like a key then, if you would agree, is
being able to diagnose earlythat resistance, and I liked how
you talked about this is thehow are they resisting.
You can waste time trying tofigure out the why right off the
(12:07):
bat, but if you can glean fromnoticing the observations of,
like how you're feeling theresistance, it could offer a lot
.
So how can individuals say inthe workplace you know, not
necessarily.
I mean I see this as beingapplicable to not only field
researchers but leaders as well.
I mean I see this as beingapplicable to not only field
(12:28):
researchers but leaders as well.
And so how can leaders take alook at this sort of tactic to
identify that resistance earlyon by observation of how people
are resisting?
Michel Anteby (12:37):
Yeah, it's a wonderful insight you know
you're pinpointing the fact thatyou should just embrace it and
try to understand how itmanifests.
Once you do, you can try tounderstand what's the form of
resistance that you're facing.
Is it silencing?
Is it obstruction?
(12:58):
Is it forgetting?
And what the form tells youabout your organization or the
place you're leading you aboutyour organization or the place
you're leading.
I'll give a quick example.
But if you're a manager of anewly merged firm and you're
talking to employees and theynever, ever reference the merger
(13:19):
right, but reference like thenew products or the customers,
as if the merger didn't happen,you know, the way of forgetting
might be indicative of how theyperceive the merger and what it
means to them or how threateningit might be to them.
So I think trying to find theseforms and what they echo in
(13:45):
every day's life is the key forleaders, field researchers or
anyone who's interested indiscovering their context.
JP Matychak (13:54):
So let's play that one out a little bit more.
So let's take that example.
You have a merger.
They're talking about theproducts, they're talking about
these things.
They're not talking about themerger.
So what might that tell youabout how people are feeling?
Michel Anteby (14:09):
So you know at this point probably you don't
yet know, but there's somethingin the history of the merger
that's mind must have rubbedthem the wrong way, in the same
way that the use of foreignemployees in the factory was
problematic.
And if that's problematic, youwould want to know why and how
you could address it right.
JP Matychak (14:30):
Right.
So it might not, um, but justthe reason why I'm carrying this
out is because it might not bethat the workers are, um for
lack of a better term not fansof the new products.
They may be very excited aboutthe new products, but there's
something else during theprocess of that merger that hit
(14:51):
them on a personal level thatcould be causing a little bit of
that tension and thatresistance.
So you know, sometimes, I'msure you see, leaders may be
quick to write these folks offas they don't want what,
ultimately, is going to be goodfor this organization, and so
they're the detractors.
(15:12):
So we need to find ways ofremoving that detraction.
That can be a mistake leaderscan make, could it not, if
they're not trying to understandbetter what that cause of that
resistance is.
Michel Anteby (15:23):
Yeah, I fully agree.
Use the word tensionresistances.
Yeah, I fully agree, use theword tension and I think that's
a perfect word.
You know, resistance uncoverstensions.
So ignoring resistance isputting tensions under the
carpet and pretending it doesn'texist.
Versus there are flavors ofresistance that can tell you
about forms of tensions.
(15:45):
Maybe I can give you anotherexample that builds a bit on the
ghostwriters, but you know, theghostwriters didn't want to be
called ghostwriters because intheir eyes, they were
co-creators of memoirs, so theywere active participants.
They were almost artists, theyhad agency and they weren't
people who were writing someoneelse's memoir, they were
(16:08):
co-writing like an art object.
So labeling them ghostwriterswent completely against the
ethos of what they did.
They really were co-creatorsand that's why when we asked
them, are you a ghostwriter,they were like no, no, that's
not us.
We're people who are almostartists creating another persona
(16:32):
.
So the typical example herewould be a book that's now is
famous, but the memoirs offormer President Donald Trump.
His ghostwriter went public andexplained how he had co-created
something and was very, youknow, transparent on his role in
(16:53):
creating the persona and inthat sense, was kind of gaining
agency and regaining his placein the project, even though his
name was under, you know, donaldTrump's, and it was written
with the help of Right right.
Shannon Light (17:10):
You, just a little while ago, talked about
the different types ofresistance which I know each
chapter in your book kind ofbreaks down the types
obstructing, hiding, shelving,silencing, forgetting and
denying.
I'm curious which type was themost interesting to you to write
(17:33):
about?
Michel Anteby (17:36):
I love them all.
You're asking me to pick, likea child.
But okay, maybe the one that'sa bit less common, let's say, is
the run around shelving.
So shelving is whenorganizations or companies kind
(17:56):
of deploy efforts to apparentlytry to solve a problem when at
the same time they make everyeffort to ensure that nothing
happens.
So you're doing, on the surface, a lot of things that seem
(18:19):
right, yet you know and hopethis will never happen.
Why is shelving interesting,you know?
Or ad hoc committees that seemto be very on point and on
target and yet lead to nothing.
This is very common, I think incorporate America, but honestly
also in government agencies.
JP Matychak (18:41):
Education.
They always say educationism.
Michel Anteby (18:44):
I'll say it, so you know the fact that you need
to shelve like this an issue isinteresting because it signals
that you also want to maintainappearances For the organization
that engages in that.
It tells us that thatorganization cares about its
outside image more than anythingelse.
It's not a surprise that Idescribe shelving in the context
(19:08):
of Disneyland.
You know Disney is about imagecreation, so obstructing or
hiding is not part of therepertoire.
You know that's not good.
We're here to have people smileand be happy and therefore
shelving is a much better wayfor us to deal with potential
tensions than just saying no orkicking you out of.
(19:30):
Disneyland.
Shannon Light (19:34):
And bringing it back to you.
What ways, would you say, hasyour up bringing shaped your
trajectory towards success andhow would you say it shapes who
you are today?
Michel Anteby (19:49):
That's a long question.
I'll try to make it short, right.
This is not therapy session.
We bring many of ourselves orparts of ourselves to our work,
and I don't want to be tootypifying in my answer, but I
think growing up as a minoritywas an experience that really
(20:12):
made me very attuned to pushbackand resistance.
I grew up as gay in a mostlystraight environment.
I grew up as a religiousminority in France.
I came from a Jewish householdand was probably the only Jewish
kid in every class I went to inhigh school until I reached
(20:34):
university, and also both myparents were foreign, born in
France.
So all this kind of set me upto deal in various ways with
resistance.
I'm not saying in good or badways.
Right, you know, acceptingdenials might not be the best
way to do it, but anyhow.
(20:55):
So I had fluency in that, andover time I came to realize that
that fluency also matched mewith hard-to-access fields.
Right, because I don't know ifI'm good at it, but I had
experience and I knew what to dowhen people said no.
So when TSA closes its doors orDisneyland says never, I'm like
(21:21):
yes, this is normal, it's fine.
I know how to deal with thisand in that sense, I believe
that part of my upbringingprepared me well for this type
of work and for the book.
JP Matychak (21:36):
So in what ways do you think that the work you've
done in the Interloper resonateswith sort of this broader
societal and cultural issues,you know, and what do you think
the or what I say?
What do you think, though, whatdo you hope the implication
would be for those that read thebook, for individuals,
(21:59):
organizations, society as awhole?
I mean, because it's very, youknow, it's always great to see
the tangible stories that bringthese things to life.
So, you know, as you wrote thisand you see it now, you know,
as a published work, you know,what do you hope that people
will take from this?
Michel Anteby (22:20):
My biggest hope is that it will invite all
derailed kind of travelers, youknow, whether a new field worker
, a new manager or even someonelike moving countries to pause a
bit on the presumed failuresand pushback they get and use
them as opportunities to learnmore about their context.
(22:43):
Opportunities to learn moreabout their context.
So it's almost like a travelcompanion, you know, for these
individuals who might not fullyfit.
Shannon Light (22:56):
And.
Michel Anteby (22:56):
I would argue all of us don't fit right.
Even if you're an insider, evenif you think this is your world
, you'll face situations wherevery quickly you realize you're
maybe slightly off compared tothe expectations.
So to me that's the main hopeof the book.
Put otherwise, you know thehurdles that we kind of drive
(23:23):
over should be embraced andallow us to see the relief of
the terrain.
So when we see a bump, you knowrun over it, you know it might
be painful at that moment, butalso try to see what it tells
you about the terrain you'rejust going over.
And that's the main message ofthe book.
Shannon Light (23:47):
You kind of just touched on it, but if there's
one idea people should take awayfrom this book, what would it
be?
JP Matychak (23:57):
Maybe even just like one strategy.
That's what I'm thinking about.
What's one way I can change theway I do something to help
overcome these resistance?
Michel Anteby (24:12):
So, again, I think we shouldn't overcome them
.
That's part of the problem,right, Because if we're trying
to overcome them, it's becausewe see them as hurdles and
challenges.
It's because we see them ashurdles and challenges.
So the one strategy would beyou know, if you think something
is preventing you from movingforward, try to consider how it
(24:32):
might actually be helping youadvance.
I'll attempt an image with thebirds.
Image with the birds.
You know, when small birdslearn to fly, they probably
think that the wind ispreventing them from moving fast
and where they want to go.
If you accept that theresistance that the wind is
(24:56):
creating is actually what allowsyou to move forward and fly
further, then you're in a bettershape.
And that's kind of one nugget Ihope readers will take from
this book.
JP Matychak (25:11):
And I think that that is a great nugget to end on
, the imagery is perfect.
I really do.
I like that because I thinkthat that's something that we
can all relate to in our ownorganizations.
It's like because you're right.
My first instinct was like howdo we overcome this right?
And we shouldn't be thinkingabout how to overcome it.
How do we use that right andhow do we use that as an
(25:32):
opportunity to understand moreand to propel forward Very good
stuff.
The book is the InterloperLessons from Resistance in the
Field, available for pre-ordernow, released April 9th.
Michel, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Michel Anteby (25:49):
Thank you, Shannon, Thank you JP.
JP Matychak (25:54):
Well, that'll wrap things up for this episode of
the Insights at Questrom podcast.
I'd like to thank our guestagain, Michel Anteby, Professor
of Management and Organizationsat Boston University, Questrom
School of Business.
Remember, for additionalinformation on this show, our
previous shows and additionalinsights from Questrom faculty
on the world of business, visitinsights.
bu.
edu For my co-host, ShannonLight.
(26:17):
I'm JP Matychak.
So long.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of
the Insights at Questrom podcast.
I'm JP Matychak, your host, andjoining me, as always, is my
co-host, Shannon Light.
Shannon, how are you today?
Shannon Light (00:38):
Great, thank you.
JP Matychak (00:39):
All right.
Well, we've got another greatepisode for today, and it's
another installment of theQuestrom Book Club.
Michelle Anteby is professor ofmanagement and organizations at
Boston University's QuestromSchool of Business and Sociology
at Boston University's Collegeof Arts and Sciences.
He also co-leads BostonUniversity's Precarity Lab.
His research looks at howindividuals relate to their work
(01:03):
, their occupations and theorganizations they belong to.
He examines more specificallythe practices people engage in
at work that help them sustaintheir chosen cultures or
identities.
In doing so, his researchcontributes to a better
understanding of how thesecultures and identities come to
be and manifest themselves.
He's the author of the upcomingbook the Interloper Lessons
(01:25):
from Resistance in the Field.
The book discusses the conceptof resistance, the bane of all
field researchers, who are oftenviewed as interlopers.
When they enter a community andstart asking questions, people
obstruct investigations and hideevidence.
They shelve complaints, silencedissent and even forget their
own past and deny having done so.
(01:47):
So how can researchers learnabout a community when its
members resist so strongly?
Well, Michel has the answer.
Michel, welcome.
Michel Anteby (01:56):
Thank you, jp.
Thank you, shannon, it's greatto be with you today.
JP Matychak (02:01):
So, Michel, you yourself are a field researcher
and have been for most of yourcareer, right, I mean, you make
a living on it, right?
So talk to us a little bitabout what inspired you to write
the Interloper.
You know what were some of thecentral themes or messages that
you really wanted to conveythrough this book.
Michel Anteby (02:21):
So there are two main reasons that inspired me.
One are my students and theother are my own experience
doing field research, as youmentioned.
First, my students, becauseI've worked with many people who
try to access a firm, agovernment agency or even a
non-profit and only rarely dodoors open up, so they complain
(02:46):
to me very often that they can'tgain access.
I personally have learned thatrefocusing our attention on the
resistance we get can be veryproductive and that we can learn
from these failures.
So that's what I wanted toconvey to these people I've
(03:07):
worked with.
And the second reason is thatI've tended to study a lot of
settings or topics that resistto be clear.
So, for instance, companieslike Disneyland, harvard
Business School or theTransportation Security
Administration so very secretivesettings or topics that many
(03:30):
would consider off limitsghostwriting a memoir for others
or trying to secure humancadavers for medical education,
for medical education.
And all this has led me to havea good kind of you know grasp
of what to do when people don'treally want to let you in.
(03:51):
Wow.
JP Matychak (03:53):
Okay.
Shannon Light (03:54):
Could you elaborate on how you explore the
concept of resistance, and Iknow in your book you offer many
specific examples.
Could you kind of go into moredetail about an example there?
Of course, yeah.
Michel Anteby (04:08):
So you know, what I love is that people tend to
be frightened of resistance andnot want to deal with it.
The main message of the book isthat resistance can actually be
very beneficial.
You can learn a lot from howyou get pushed back.
So, if there's you know, onething that I hope readers get
(04:31):
from it is that there are waymore possibilities when dealing
with resistance than anythingelse.
You asked about specificexamples, so I'll give you one,
but I'm happy to share others aswell.
I think every form ofresistance is telling.
(04:53):
When I was conducting, forinstance, some research in a
French aeronautic factory at thetime, like today, I was
affiliated with a US universityand plant members were kind of
puzzled why a US academic wouldwant to learn about their life.
You know, they were suspiciouseven.
I would say, you know, was I aspy?
Something even more ominous,who knows?
(05:14):
And that proved reallydifficult for me when I was
trying to gain access.
I also at that time was able toaffiliate myself with a French
university and gradually Idiscovered that my French
affiliation actually helped alot.
I wasn't sure why, but it did.
Unbeknown to me at that time,the specific plant I was
(05:39):
studying had a very murky past.
In fact it had collaboratedwith foreigners in order to
achieve the success it had todayin France.
So you know, to put it verybluntly, they had hired Nazi
scientists after World War II tohelp build French capacity and
(06:04):
then later on in the 70s, theyworked with General Electric, an
American company, to kind ofdevelop their expertise.
So by presenting myself asAmerican, I was kind of
triggering this vague sentimentof unpatriotic behavior that
really rubbed them the wrong waybut was also very diagnostic of
(06:29):
what mattered most to them.
Shannon Light (06:33):
And I know you use the TSA.
You go into a chapter about TSA.
Can you talk about that?
That one I thought wasinteresting.
Oh, sure, yeah, I'm happy to.
Michel Anteby (06:42):
Talk about that, that one I thought was
interesting?
Oh sure, yeah, I'm happy to.
So TSA was very different andevery field has its own
different kind of tension.
So remember, the French factorywas about how patriotic they
were and the problem was myUS-ness or Farness.
TSA has a very different issue,or at least at the time we were
studying it.
(07:02):
They were concerned by beingmonitored by outsiders, because
there were rumors at the timethat TSA employees might be
stealing from customers' luggage.
So this was the early yearsright of TSA, and they had
(07:23):
installed cameras on every lanebecause that was the way to
control for that.
So when I approached them, Iwas working with a doctoral
student at that time who went toan airport, unnamed I'll say
and was trying to see what theydid.
Within 10 minutes of her beingthere, they noticed her watching
(07:48):
them, they called state police.
She got detained and had toexplain what she was doing and
at that time I thought you know,this is just odd, but let's
continue but the fact that shewas picking up on the idea of
observing them and that's whatbothered them was really telling
(08:09):
about what they were concernedabout.
Employees at TSA were concernedabout being over-monitored by
management, even outsiders, andthe resistance she faced and we
faced, in that sense, was awonderful signal, you know, to
guide our discovery.
Shannon Light (08:30):
And I know you've mentioned resistance now a
couple of times why should wecare about it?
Why not?
Okay, I'll give a better answer.
Michel Anteby (08:43):
Resistance is the social mechanism that a group
deploys whether it's a firm, youknow, a family or government
agency to maintain the statusquo.
JP Matychak (08:54):
Yeah, and.
Michel Anteby (08:55):
I love resistance because it tells us what the
status quo is about.
So if we really pay attentionto how people push back, it
tells us what they want tomaintain in place, and that's
why resistance is a wonderful,informative kind of tool, a
diagnostic tool, to help usunderstand what matters to
(09:16):
individuals.
Does that capture it to you?
JP Matychak (09:19):
Yeah, so you know, you as a sociologist, in a lot
of what you do and you're in abusiness school, and so you
yourself can, can may havealready felt like an interloper
yourself in some instances, oryou know.
So talk a little bit about howyou have worked to overcome some
(09:45):
of those obstacles.
You know in here in your careeras an academic, but even in the
business world, right, you knowyou are by nature trying to
study people, which can makepeople feel anxious, right, and
can make them feel resistant.
So what have you?
What methods have you employedduring your career that you
(10:05):
brought to this book that youhope others can, tactics that
others can bring to yeah, thanks, JP.
Michel Anteby (10:11):
So first to set the record straight, I think
sociologists belong in businessschools.
JP Matychak (10:16):
Great.
.
Michel Anteby (10:18):
Maybe there are fewer sociologists than other
types of economics or economicstrained people.
We all have our place.
Economics, trained people yeah,we all have our place.
What I've learned is you knowyou have to like, embrace the
resistance you face and kind ofrun with it, so not view it as
(10:50):
an obstacle, pass as French thanbeing an American, and I wasn't
entirely sure why, but I feltit.
And I did that when I wasworking on a different project
that entailed interviews withghostwriters of memoirs.
My collaborator and Idiscovered that ghostwriters
(11:14):
didn't think of themselves atall as ghostwriters, despite the
overwhelming evidence that theyhad ghostwritten books right.
So we learned quickly not tocall them ghostwriters but to
call them co-writers, which theypreferred.
And these kind of adaptationstrategies to pass, to accept,
(11:34):
to run with it even if you don'tfully understand why at that
time I think are good ways forfield researchers to deal with
resistance.
To deal with resistance.
JP Matychak (11:45):
So it seems like a key then, if you would agree, is
being able to diagnose earlythat resistance, and I liked how
you talked about this is thehow are they resisting.
You can waste time trying tofigure out the why right off the
(12:07):
bat, but if you can glean fromnoticing the observations of,
like how you're feeling theresistance, it could offer a lot
.
So how can individuals say inthe workplace you know, not
necessarily.
I mean I see this as beingapplicable to not only field
researchers but leaders as well.
I mean I see this as beingapplicable to not only field
(12:28):
researchers but leaders as well.
And so how can leaders take alook at this sort of tactic to
identify that resistance earlyon by observation of how people
are resisting?
Michel Anteby (12:37):
Yeah, it's a wonderful insight you know
you're pinpointing the fact thatyou should just embrace it and
try to understand how itmanifests.
Once you do, you can try tounderstand what's the form of
resistance that you're facing.
Is it silencing?
Is it obstruction?
(12:58):
Is it forgetting?
And what the form tells youabout your organization or the
place you're leading you aboutyour organization or the place
you're leading.
I'll give a quick example.
But if you're a manager of anewly merged firm and you're
talking to employees and theynever, ever reference the merger
(13:19):
right, but reference like thenew products or the customers,
as if the merger didn't happen,you know, the way of forgetting
might be indicative of how theyperceive the merger and what it
means to them or how threateningit might be to them.
So I think trying to find theseforms and what they echo in
(13:45):
every day's life is the key forleaders, field researchers or
anyone who's interested indiscovering their context.
JP Matychak (13:54):
So let's play that one out a little bit more.
So let's take that example.
You have a merger.
They're talking about theproducts, they're talking about
these things.
They're not talking about themerger.
So what might that tell youabout how people are feeling?
Michel Anteby (14:09):
So you know at this point probably you don't
yet know, but there's somethingin the history of the merger
that's mind must have rubbedthem the wrong way, in the same
way that the use of foreignemployees in the factory was
problematic.
And if that's problematic, youwould want to know why and how
you could address it right.
JP Matychak (14:30):
Right.
So it might not, um, but justthe reason why I'm carrying this
out is because it might not bethat the workers are, um for
lack of a better term not fansof the new products.
They may be very excited aboutthe new products, but there's
something else during theprocess of that merger that hit
(14:51):
them on a personal level thatcould be causing a little bit of
that tension and thatresistance.
So you know, sometimes, I'msure you see, leaders may be
quick to write these folks offas they don't want what,
ultimately, is going to be goodfor this organization, and so
they're the detractors.
(15:12):
So we need to find ways ofremoving that detraction.
That can be a mistake leaderscan make, could it not, if
they're not trying to understandbetter what that cause of that
resistance is.
Michel Anteby (15:23):
Yeah, I fully agree.
Use the word tensionresistances.
Yeah, I fully agree, use theword tension and I think that's
a perfect word.
You know, resistance uncoverstensions.
So ignoring resistance isputting tensions under the
carpet and pretending it doesn'texist.
Versus there are flavors ofresistance that can tell you
about forms of tensions.
(15:45):
Maybe I can give you anotherexample that builds a bit on the
ghostwriters, but you know, theghostwriters didn't want to be
called ghostwriters because intheir eyes, they were
co-creators of memoirs, so theywere active participants.
They were almost artists, theyhad agency and they weren't
people who were writing someoneelse's memoir, they were
(16:08):
co-writing like an art object.
So labeling them ghostwriterswent completely against the
ethos of what they did.
They really were co-creatorsand that's why when we asked
them, are you a ghostwriter,they were like no, no, that's
not us.
We're people who are almostartists creating another persona
(16:32):
.
So the typical example herewould be a book that's now is
famous, but the memoirs offormer President Donald Trump.
His ghostwriter went public andexplained how he had co-created
something and was very, youknow, transparent on his role in
(16:53):
creating the persona and inthat sense, was kind of gaining
agency and regaining his placein the project, even though his
name was under, you know, donaldTrump's, and it was written
with the help of Right right.
Shannon Light (17:10):
You, just a little while ago, talked about
the different types ofresistance which I know each
chapter in your book kind ofbreaks down the types
obstructing, hiding, shelving,silencing, forgetting and
denying.
I'm curious which type was themost interesting to you to write
(17:33):
about?
Michel Anteby (17:36):
I love them all.
You're asking me to pick, likea child.
But okay, maybe the one that'sa bit less common, let's say, is
the run around shelving.
So shelving is whenorganizations or companies kind
(17:56):
of deploy efforts to apparentlytry to solve a problem when at
the same time they make everyeffort to ensure that nothing
happens.
So you're doing, on the surface, a lot of things that seem
(18:19):
right, yet you know and hopethis will never happen.
Why is shelving interesting,you know?
Or ad hoc committees that seemto be very on point and on
target and yet lead to nothing.
This is very common, I think incorporate America, but honestly
also in government agencies.
JP Matychak (18:41):
Education.
They always say educationism.
Michel Anteby (18:44):
I'll say it, so you know the fact that you need
to shelve like this an issue isinteresting because it signals
that you also want to maintainappearances For the organization
that engages in that.
It tells us that thatorganization cares about its
outside image more than anythingelse.
It's not a surprise that Idescribe shelving in the context
(19:08):
of Disneyland.
You know Disney is about imagecreation, so obstructing or
hiding is not part of therepertoire.
You know that's not good.
We're here to have people smileand be happy and therefore
shelving is a much better wayfor us to deal with potential
tensions than just saying no orkicking you out of.
(19:30):
Disneyland.
Shannon Light (19:34):
And bringing it back to you.
What ways, would you say, hasyour up bringing shaped your
trajectory towards success andhow would you say it shapes who
you are today?
Michel Anteby (19:49):
That's a long question.
I'll try to make it short, right.
This is not therapy session.
We bring many of ourselves orparts of ourselves to our work,
and I don't want to be tootypifying in my answer, but I
think growing up as a minoritywas an experience that really
(20:12):
made me very attuned to pushbackand resistance.
I grew up as gay in a mostlystraight environment.
I grew up as a religiousminority in France.
I came from a Jewish householdand was probably the only Jewish
kid in every class I went to inhigh school until I reached
(20:34):
university, and also both myparents were foreign, born in
France.
So all this kind of set me upto deal in various ways with
resistance.
I'm not saying in good or badways.
Right, you know, acceptingdenials might not be the best
way to do it, but anyhow.
(20:55):
So I had fluency in that, andover time I came to realize that
that fluency also matched mewith hard-to-access fields.
Right, because I don't know ifI'm good at it, but I had
experience and I knew what to dowhen people said no.
So when TSA closes its doors orDisneyland says never, I'm like
(21:21):
yes, this is normal, it's fine.
I know how to deal with thisand in that sense, I believe
that part of my upbringingprepared me well for this type
of work and for the book.
JP Matychak (21:36):
So in what ways do you think that the work you've
done in the Interloper resonateswith sort of this broader
societal and cultural issues,you know, and what do you think
the or what I say?
What do you think, though, whatdo you hope the implication
would be for those that read thebook, for individuals,
(21:59):
organizations, society as awhole?
I mean, because it's very, youknow, it's always great to see
the tangible stories that bringthese things to life.
So, you know, as you wrote thisand you see it now, you know,
as a published work, you know,what do you hope that people
will take from this?
Michel Anteby (22:20):
My biggest hope is that it will invite all
derailed kind of travelers, youknow, whether a new field worker
, a new manager or even someonelike moving countries to pause a
bit on the presumed failuresand pushback they get and use
them as opportunities to learnmore about their context.
(22:43):
Opportunities to learn moreabout their context.
So it's almost like a travelcompanion, you know, for these
individuals who might not fullyfit.
Shannon Light (22:56):
And.
Michel Anteby (22:56):
I would argue all of us don't fit right.
Even if you're an insider, evenif you think this is your world
, you'll face situations wherevery quickly you realize you're
maybe slightly off compared tothe expectations.
So to me that's the main hopeof the book.
Put otherwise, you know thehurdles that we kind of drive
(23:23):
over should be embraced andallow us to see the relief of
the terrain.
So when we see a bump, you knowrun over it, you know it might
be painful at that moment, butalso try to see what it tells
you about the terrain you'rejust going over.
And that's the main message ofthe book.
Shannon Light (23:47):
You kind of just touched on it, but if there's
one idea people should take awayfrom this book, what would it
be?
JP Matychak (23:57):
Maybe even just like one strategy.
That's what I'm thinking about.
What's one way I can change theway I do something to help
overcome these resistance?
Michel Anteby (24:12):
So, again, I think we shouldn't overcome them
.
That's part of the problem,right, Because if we're trying
to overcome them, it's becausewe see them as hurdles and
challenges.
It's because we see them ashurdles and challenges.
So the one strategy would beyou know, if you think something
is preventing you from movingforward, try to consider how it
(24:32):
might actually be helping youadvance.
I'll attempt an image with thebirds.
Image with the birds.
You know, when small birdslearn to fly, they probably
think that the wind ispreventing them from moving fast
and where they want to go.
If you accept that theresistance that the wind is
(24:56):
creating is actually what allowsyou to move forward and fly
further, then you're in a bettershape.
And that's kind of one nugget Ihope readers will take from
this book.
JP Matychak (25:11):
And I think that that is a great nugget to end on
, the imagery is perfect.
I really do.
I like that because I thinkthat that's something that we
can all relate to in our ownorganizations.
It's like because you're right.
My first instinct was like howdo we overcome this right?
And we shouldn't be thinkingabout how to overcome it.
How do we use that right andhow do we use that as an
(25:32):
opportunity to understand moreand to propel forward Very good
stuff.
The book is the InterloperLessons from Resistance in the
Field, available for pre-ordernow, released April 9th.
Michel, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Michel Anteby (25:49):
Thank you, Shannon, Thank you JP.
JP Matychak (25:54):
Well, that'll wrap things up for this episode of
the Insights at Questrom podcast.
I'd like to thank our guestagain, Michel Anteby, Professor
of Management and Organizationsat Boston University, Questrom
School of Business.
Remember, for additionalinformation on this show, our
previous shows and additionalinsights from Questrom faculty
on the world of business, visitinsights.
bu.
edu For my co-host, ShannonLight.
(26:17):
I'm JP Matychak.
So long.
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