December 27, 2024 • 49 mins
In today's special episode, two educators discuss the critical role of schools in creating safe and inclusive environments for LGBTQ+ students. This episode covers strategies for fostering respect and understanding within educational settings, alongside personal stories from the front lines of teaching.
https://www.youtube.com/@InspiredInsightsPodcast
inspiredinsights@inspiredcg.com
*This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered health advice. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
**Please note that this episode contains sensitive behavioral health topics such as suicide and substance use. If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis, please contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by calling 988 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.
References:
“Hey, Kiddo: A Graphic Novel” – Jarrett Krosoczka https://heykiddobook.com/
“Long Way Down” – Jason Reynolds https://www.jasonwritesbooks.com/books
Kwame Alexander https://kwamealexander.com/product/books/intro/
Nick Stone https://www.nickstone.co.uk/
Tiffany Jackson https://www.writeinbk.com/
1984 Graphic Novel
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
The Inspired Insights podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should
(00:04):
not be considered health advice.
This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Please note that this podcast may contain discussions on sensitive topics such as mental
illness, suicide, and substance use.
If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis or need support, please contact the
9-8-8 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling 9-8-8 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.
(00:51):
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Inspired Insights podcast.
We have two lovely guests.
I am your host, Thorne Peterson.
Chris McAllen, welcome.
Wonderful to see you two around the fire pit side chat.
(01:12):
I think that's what we've been calling these.
Fire side chat, FDR.
And these two lovely ladies are...
I'll start.
I am Kelsey Sturinova and I teach English and I am also local Maine born and bred and
the 2022 Maine Teacher of the Year.
(01:32):
Woohoo!
Nice!
And I am Emily Frogmoren, also an English teacher in the state of Maine and have been
in Maine for 25 years now, even though I'm not from Maine.
And I am the 2024 Penobscot County Teacher of the Year.
Yes, we are sitting with royalty.
It's so nice to have you for our listeners in the spirit of transparency.
(01:58):
I have known both of you for years, have traveled and vacationed with your parents and have
been connected with you and your family also for years.
And so we have talked about this particular episode for a while now and I'm just so excited
for you all and our listeners know that Sorin and I have chatted about issues of education
(02:22):
as far back as really our introductory episode as education having two parents being raised
by parents of educators.
This is a topic that's so important to me as well.
So I'm glad and so thankful that both of you could join us.
Yes, I know.
(02:43):
Well, let's start off with our inspired insights.
Alright, Sorin, lead us.
I'm going to go first.
Earlier today, I was reading a bit of Albert Camus, a famous French philosopher, and I
read a quote that really struck me.
(03:04):
We must imagine Sisyphus happy.
And this is regarding how the fight against our seemingly unending issues and the turmoil
of life is what we should derive our happiness from, not our end state.
(03:28):
And that's something that drives me a lot and I find very powerful.
I actually followed that this time.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Embrace the absurdity of life.
I love it.
I love it.
My inspired insight of the week.
So we've been talking about this for a while.
(03:49):
My 50th birthday has now finally come and gone.
We've been leading up to it for a while.
And part of the birthday celebration was a new tattoo.
And we've talked about this idea of the let them philosophy for a while.
And I think there's something about turning 50 that makes that click on a little even
(04:12):
bit more prominently.
And so as we approach what I anticipate to be a contentious election season, I think
let them is probably where I'm camping out in my inspired insight of the week.
Just the importance of that being a thing.
(04:34):
With the election already having happened.
Yes.
Already have happened, which is wild to even think about.
Yes.
What does the future hold?
Well mine piggybacks very nicely off of Chris.
This is Emily.
I also turned 50 this year and this quote actually dovetails nicely with yours.
(04:56):
So this is a Roosevelt quote, but it comes to the forefront of my mind this week because
I heard it again in a Brene Brown podcast and it is the man in the arena.
So we can, we can use, well, let's all read it as it's written, which is with man, but
we can just remember this applies to all humans.
(05:17):
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles
or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust
and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who airs, who comes short again and again.
And if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.
(05:39):
And that quote is a huge inspiration to Brene because she actually named a book after the
daring greatly quote.
Just as somebody who struggles with anxiety, I really have to remind myself constantly
to not worry about the critics, especially the critics that are criticizing from a place
of not putting themselves out there.
(05:59):
And so in teaching, it's something I really strive to talk about with my students, but
also in my life, I have to remind myself that no matter how it goes, it's always better
to put yourself out there and try and that you're always stronger for the trying and
to sort of quiet those critics that are always around because maybe they're not trying it
(06:21):
themselves, but you're the one out there.
Yeah.
The magic of turning 50.
I know, right?
Curtain's part.
Kelsey.
I'm going to take my inspiration from a student today.
Actually, I was thinking it connects really well actually to this idea of let them, but
also this idea of pushing through moments of difficulty or moments that you feel like
(06:46):
you can't accomplish because it's something you've never done before.
So end of the quarter when this was filmed, students are doing book talks right now.
And I had a student who was getting close to the end of quarter hadn't read a second
book and I offered him a book called Orbiting Jupiter by Gary Schmidt.
It takes place in Maine.
(07:07):
And I said, you know, this is a book that I give to students and it's one that I think
every kid should read before they graduate high school.
It's not a hard read, but it's a really meaningful read.
I call it Small But Mighty.
I love a good Small But Mighty book.
And so today he presented his book talk and he had multiple books to choose from, but
he chose that book.
And so he gets up and he shares this book and he's getting increasingly passionate
(07:28):
as he's talking.
And I'm looking at and he was the last one to go, by the way, which was also making him
anxious.
But he gets up there, he talks about this book and immediately after two kids came up
and said, well, I need to read that book.
I need to read that book because I was in foster care when I was younger.
And I think I really I know how it is.
And another kid said, well, I need to read that book because my life wasn't always easy.
(07:49):
And I want to see how this kid's story was.
And this was all happening real time and I'm like, what?
Like, you know, these are like unintended successes of pushing kids to share and letting
them read.
And I hope we'll talk more about that as time goes on.
But this idea of let them and let them read and let them let them be out there and share
themselves in all of their in all of their humanness.
(08:12):
And so that was my inspired moment that I didn't even expect to have today.
But that's so beautiful.
And you know what it also makes me think about?
Zorn and I in our first premiere episode of this season, our topic was around collecting
joy and the importance of intentionally finding those moments of joy and then packing them
away and hanging on to them.
(08:32):
And I imagine, well, for for educators similar to social work, you have to be really on your
game to grab on to those moments because they don't sometimes come as often as we would
like them to be.
And so when you see them get really intentional about packing it away so you can come back
(08:53):
to it.
What a great success.
Yeah.
Thank you all for that.
So when we were prepping for this conversation, you had a topic that I thought would be awesome
to kick us off.
And I think it's a bit of a retrospective and forward look of teaching.
(09:17):
Yeah, so I think today we've addressed the topics of trials and change.
And right in that wheelhouse, I'd like to start the conversation off by asking how you've
noticed the teaching space change both during and after the COVID-19 pandemic and what that's
(09:39):
looked like for your students, for your teaching style, and for your interactions with the
public and the like.
You want me to start, sir?
Okay.
Oh, my goodness, this is a big topic.
So March 2020, you know, sent us all home and we would have had no way to know that
we were not only not going back that year, but that the following teaching year would
(10:03):
be different and really just things would be different from then on.
I would say, and Kelsey, you can jump in any time, but that there are some things that
are better and some things that are harder.
Some of the things that are harder is that the relationship with school changed because
kids were home for over a year and therefore we are now struggling with attendance in a
(10:25):
way because of that relationship.
Some students feel that they can access education from home because so much of what we do is
also offered online in Google Classroom and classroom websites.
So there's sort of a mentality shift that's not always positive, which is that kids don't
feel that they need to be in the building and they're missing out on a lot and we're
(10:48):
missing on having them.
So that's one of the negatives.
One of the positives is that it forced us to really be creative and think outside the
box and to do things that we before would have said, well, you can't do that.
So we have been more creative in the way that we present material, the way that we reach
kids that are at home.
(11:08):
We have more options for kids because we were forced to create them.
So maybe a hybrid situation for a kid that's struggling with mental health.
We may be able to offer an online class here or there, whereas before that wasn't available.
And so in some ways it brought out the best in us as educators because we survived that
(11:30):
and that was crazy that our kids were just at home and we weren't with them anymore.
And then we figured out a way to make it work.
So I think it allowed us to think, okay, well, if we can do that, then we can do this and
this and this.
Yeah.
I think it also, like speaking to that, it also really solidified for everyone outside
(11:52):
of the school realm, just how important relationships between students and teachers really were.
I think, you know, you've always asked kids from the youngest age, who's your favorite
teacher?
What do you love about school?
Like those types of things.
And then COVID came and the ways in which we had to engage students, it was really,
(12:15):
really different.
And a lot of us were doing some of those things before, but it became clear that that was
the way forward.
And so I would say to like, I look at every assignment now and I look at every kid and
I'm like, okay, how is this going to be successful for them?
How am I engaging them to be their best selves?
(12:38):
And the options that we offer kids now are so varied, whereas I think it was a lot more
rigid before.
Agree.
And that was a lot of that was due to policy.
And I think that's an important piece too.
I think by allowing the outside world to come into our virtual classrooms, they saw our
creativity and were able to be like, hey, that's really working.
(13:01):
Thanks for what you're doing.
And then we got to keep doing that.
Whereas before it was like, you have to do this, this and this because this is what's
expected of you.
The hardship around attendance, I think is something that's very real.
And I think it alleviates this or not alleviates.
That's the wrong word.
Let's cut that.
(13:21):
English teachers saying the wrong word.
It really shines a light in a not so great way on the lack of structures that are in
place for kids that need support beyond the walls of a school.
I have been a part of many conversations around what systems do we have to make sure kids
(13:49):
can access school in a way that suits them best.
But there is no policy that exists around attendance and what that looks like for each
individual kid.
And I think that's what we're really going to come up against because no matter what,
I think the squirrel just threw an egg for me.
That was fantastic.
(14:12):
No matter what's going forward, we need to look at how school functions.
And at the end of the day, even though we have changed as educators, the time structure
of school has not changed.
And I think that's something that needs to be talked about at a higher level than just
an individual school, an individual department, an individual state because this is something
(14:33):
matching the school environment to the developmental levels and needs of kids.
You both are talking about innovation and creativity and still bumping up against some
of the rigid structures that exist of business as usual.
(14:55):
And I hear that as a social worker all the time.
Okay, COVID is done, back to normal, back to usual.
We hear it all the time.
Let's get back to normal.
And that's my big question is, why go back?
Why is it always let's go back to something?
Why are we not saying let's look forward, let's evolve, let's see what's working and
(15:19):
let's have conversations around the fire pit?
I agree.
And can I jump in?
Sorry.
I also think that it's not, I hear this comparison all the time of pre-COVID, post-COVID teaching.
I can't think of, and if you can then throw it out there, I can't think of a way that
that benefits our students now to compare them to what it was like four years ago or
(15:42):
two years ago.
I just don't know, their reality is their reality.
We asked for COVID, the struggles that kids have today are definitely impacted by the
year and a half that they missed from COVID, but they're also impacted by technology and
their cell phones that were literally created to cause them to become addicted.
(16:06):
The same pressures that existed prior to March of 2020.
Yeah.
And the mental health issues, which are so much worse now.
So these students that we have now didn't ask for any of this, they're just products
of their time.
And it doesn't, I just can't figure out why it is beneficial to keep going back to how
(16:26):
we used to do things.
That's just not the world we live in anymore.
And those kids, these kids have different needs.
And one thing that I do differently now is I teach a little bit slower.
I don't cover as much material as I used to, but that is also not a negative.
I think diving in really deeply and spending more time on a text is not a negative, but
(16:50):
it is constantly compared to the pace at which we were going before COVID.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I could not agree more.
And I'm somebody that often talks with different industries that COVID has perhaps forever
changed the way we do the things we do, whether it's teaching, whether it's hybrid or remote
(17:10):
work settings, whether it's how we grocery shop or how we collect our paper supplies
and always thinking about having more or extra.
Yeah.
Soren, as a student during that time, when you hear Emily and Kelsey talk about like
(17:30):
innovation, creativity as an end user, did you feel, I'm curious, did you feel that shift
in doing things more uniquely?
I think that things have certainly transitioned online more.
I don't very much remember my education pre-COVID.
(17:51):
And during COVID, I'm going to be honest, I failed every class.
I failed the last half of seventh grade and then I failed all of eighth grade.
I think your class included.
I think that the most pronounced impact that I've seen is like precipitous psychological
(18:17):
shift in the students that I am interacting with and that are in my classes.
I think that online has, or the internet rather, has allowed students to diverge in interests
and personalities and psychological conditions a lot more than they previously were.
(18:42):
And I think that that is a net neutral shift.
I think it's good in that it's allowed students to express themselves more fully, develop
more unique and individualized personalities.
But I think it has hurt a lot of students in that the education system in the US right
(19:05):
now is still designed for homogeneity.
And a very heterogeneous group being put into a homogeneous school system is creating a
lot of conflict and causing attendance issues like you guys were mentioning.
(19:29):
I don't have the opportunity to interact with a large portion of the student body because
of the classes that I'm taking for the most part.
Like I, it's the same group of like 40 kids that I've been taking classes with my entire
career at school.
But I'd be interested to hear what you guys' perspective on how education is going to shift
(19:55):
to meet the needs of students.
But I don't see a future in which the same homogeneous treatment of students will continue
being successful in the future.
I think we're going to need to hyper specialize education in order to produce a diverse body
(20:16):
of laborers, right?
Because ultimately in my eyes from the utilitarian perspective, school is primarily to produce
an economically productive population.
You guys might have a different perspective on that.
Well, that is true.
But I think there's happy and healthy people.
(20:38):
Right.
Yeah.
Also prepared for adulthood.
Prepared.
Yeah.
Responsible.
Productive.
Engaged in the world.
Curious.
Yeah.
Regardless of host, like regardless of secondary education or vocational training or hanging
out.
You know, I think for me, what I like a theme that the three of you are talking about is
(21:00):
this idea that maybe through COVID, the attention shifted to get really much more student focused.
Like what does this student need?
And Emily, you're talking about how you're even seeing that now of being able to adjust
and bend and flex.
So maybe half day attendance, maybe some remote, some in person, maybe only this day or this
(21:24):
day, maybe coming on site for these classes.
I'm going to let that burn.
See, let them.
But I think that you, the ability to, instead of the collective student body, here's what
is good for all kids.
Honing that in.
(21:45):
What does Chris need?
What does Sora need?
And how do we flex the system to support the kids?
Which is really difficult in big schools, especially.
But I feel like the spirit is moving more in that direction.
And there's a lot more conversation about creating options to tap into every individual
kid's needs.
One of the things, I mean, I start every year and I've done this for many, many years now
(22:08):
with just saying to students, one of the things we're going to think about and talk about
all year is how does what we read as English and an English class, how does what we reconnect
to ourselves in the world around us?
And the idea of that being that my, one of my primary roles is to help you engage in
this safe space with ideas and themes and topics in a way that you feel comfortable
(22:32):
being a productive reader, writer, thinker, speaker.
And if I can help each individual kid feel confident in those aspects before they leave
my classroom, then I'm going to call it a success.
You know, then for some kids that might be, I want to focus in on being a better speaker
and what that looks like.
(22:53):
And maybe that's just being able to have a conversation with three people about something
that I'm passionate about.
Or maybe it's, I want to be a better writer.
And then they produce something that they feel is so profound that they bring it home
and share it with their family where they might not have before, you know?
And so I think a big part of this push forward in education is ultimately we are trying to
(23:16):
help children grow into adults that feel like they can be productive in a way that they
have success and they leave their mark.
Right.
Yeah.
And that will look different for every kid.
And so I think at the individual classroom level, we are working our butts off to make
it a more heterogeneous experience, even if the structure itself doesn't necessarily say
(23:43):
that we can, so to speak.
And at the end of the day, you have, you only have the tools that you have.
And so whether you're a giant thousand plus school kids, school district, or a K through
four school with 60 kids in it.
Like you only have the tools you have.
And we have our, I don't know how many students you have this year, Kelsey, but I have about
(24:07):
85 or 90.
And that's my focus.
I can't do it all.
I can't change the entire system, but I can work with every kid that I have.
And that totally links to safe spaces because that's our goal is to have every kid feel
like we see them, we see how they learn a little differently than the people sitting
(24:30):
right next to them.
We may offer them an opportunity to show us what they know in a slightly different way.
And we can really empower each individual kid.
So it's frustrating when we feel like we have great ideas that, you know, the system's just
too big to fix it all, but we can offer our own insight and we can also just be in our
classrooms with our awesome kids and one kid at a time.
(24:53):
One kid at a time.
Yeah, Sorin and I talk about allyship all the time as well and the importance of representation
and inclusion and safety in all spaces.
And I know that's a big mantra of mine in the work that I do, especially with queer
youth, but kids of all measures of diversity from the left-handed kids to the neurodiverse
(25:18):
kids to the differently abled kids to the BIPOC kids to, yes, the queer kids.
And so I'm curious, what are some of the things you both do intentionally to create that environment,
recognizing Emily to your point, like my scope of influence is my classroom and every kid
that enters this room.
(25:39):
And we do a lot of talking to other teachers and we work with pre-service teachers in some
capacity.
So we do try to spread our web a little wider.
I know I can speak for both of us when free choice reading and putting books in kids'
hands is super important, but Kelsey's really the pro on that.
(26:00):
So I'll let her talk about that one.
And both of us have really amazing classrooms that are super cozy and safe and everything
physically, I mean from tables instead of rows of desks.
I mean, turning off the fluorescent lights and having actual lamps in there, having everything
from having blankets available for kids that are cold, a snack drawer, you know, just then
(26:24):
books of bins, bins of books that they have chosen for themselves.
A teacher that says hello and talks to every kid, tries to talk to every kid every day.
All of that is, might sound generic, but it's so key to offering a kid a space in the building
where they feel that they can breathe and relax and let their guard down.
(26:48):
Obviously, they're going to learn the academics so much easier and more in depth if they feel
that way.
But just on a human level, I like being a place where kids are relieved to walk into
that space.
Yeah.
It's super important.
I can attest to the value of a more like casual learning environment because I like to talk
(27:11):
a lot in class.
And when a teacher makes me feel comfortable to do so and when the setting is more familiar
and casual, less like authoritarian, I am so much more driven to become interested in
what we're discussing and engage with it on a deeper level.
(27:34):
And I think teachers who have done that have really brought me from a place where I hated
the education system and had a loathing for material that I was being taught into a place
where now all I want to do is pursue the things that I'm learning outside of class.
(27:55):
And do more of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelsey, I know watching your 2022 journey as the main teacher of the year, one of your
platforms was really what Emily referenced around representation and reading.
Do you want to speak a little bit about the power of that for you?
Absolutely.
You know, I think, well, first of all, I will say I was really fortunate to have earned
(28:21):
a book love foundation grant back in 2020, 2021, like it was in the process there.
And even before that, obviously the power of reading and the power of students selecting
what they read, I saw how that was the foundation of my classroom.
But I also want to put out there that it is not always possible for teachers to be able
(28:42):
to facilitate the ability to help kids choose books the way that I have been able to, because
I've been able to.
I'm fortunate enough to have been able to build up a classroom library like I have.
Because of the grants and other resources.
Including the supportive people when I was named teacher of the year.
And so I'm really thankful for that.
I think that a lot of kids do a lot of reading when they're young, if they are fortunate
(29:06):
to have supportive systems that allow them to do that.
And then oftentimes when they get to middle school, there's this drop off.
And that's when you start hearing, I hate reading.
I hate to read.
And I always came back and said, I don't think you hate to read.
I think you haven't found the right book yet.
And I think once I started processing with students, like, let's just pass some books
(29:31):
around.
Let's decorate our walls in our classroom with the books that you love.
One of my favorite things that I do every year is I have our shared shelf and I have
students decorate book spines of their most right from the start, their most impactful
book from the last two years.
It could be favorite or most impactful.
Sometimes those are the same book.
And when they come in after doing those book spines and they see their their shelf all
(29:54):
in place, they go over and they're like, oh, that I've read that book before.
That's such a good book.
Oh, you know, that looks really cool.
I had a student come in.
He's like, I've never seen something like this before.
This is actually way cooler than I thought it was going to be when you told me I had
to color this rectangular paper.
And so a lot of the book pairing that I do comes from getting to know students and knowing
(30:18):
what they care about and who they want to be and what they are right now.
But the students themselves do a lot of the work to matchmaking matchmaking.
And to Emily's point with the classroom, I'm glad she brought that up because I was without
my own classroom for a year.
And one of the things that I missed the most was putting things up on the wall from my
(30:42):
students so that they could then interact with each other through the work that they
did.
And that in itself, I find, creates a safe space because they are able to facilitate
little independent conversations where they learn so much about each other.
Last year, more than ever, I've heard a lot of students after congratulating their peers
(31:02):
if they're presenting something or if they're in discussion, that was a really good point
you made.
They guys just little aside, they think they're not supposed to be talking.
But I all of a sudden, I love that you just supported each other.
Thank you for celebrating each other.
And I make a big deal out of it.
And they think that I'm so cringe.
And it's also cringe.
They say cringe now.
But it's, you know, I just.
Well, you're creating a community.
They're seeing their own work on the walls.
And they're like, they're like, oh, I'm going to do this.
(31:23):
And they're like, oh, I'm going to do this.
And they're like, oh, I'm going to do that.
And so they're in a community, right?
This is my space.
I belong here.
Yeah.
And that is so powerful for kids.
I'm curious, and I know we have listeners thinking this right now and I hate to put
you on the spot, what are some of the titles that come up year after year that you've
been building this shelf?
Absolutely.
So Hey Kiddo by Jarrett Krzysztofia is a graphic novel that comes up every single year.
(31:48):
That is so I do this thing as an aside, I have students when they finished, I put the
book cover on a Google Doc.
I print out all of the book covers
and I put them into a collage.
And so I can see pattern,
well, they can see what each other is reading,
but I can see patterns of books that appear more than once
and so on and so forth.
So I'm pulling that from this right now.
So, Hey Kiddo, Long Way Down by Jason Reynolds
(32:08):
is another really big one,
whether it's the book in verse version
or the graphic novel version.
Those are definitely two that come up
over and over and over again,
year after year, probably since 2020, 2021, I would say.
So they've kind of stood the test of time.
Do you think that's kids like sharing with each other
and kind of like passing the favorite titles down,
class to class to class?
(32:29):
Yes, I definitely think so.
I will say with the overpowering TikTok as it is,
there's been a lot more TikTok reads
in the last couple of years
that have kind of infiltrated the typical common reads
that I've seen.
And I think that there's some pros to that
and some, maybe not, but the pros are,
(32:52):
kids are talking about books more
than I think they ever really have,
which I can appreciate.
So those two for sure.
And then I would also say there's some authors
that kind of have stood the test of time.
People like Kwame Alexander and Nick Stone
and Tiffany Jackson and just to name a few.
And then the 1984 graphic novel
(33:15):
has kind of come around recently.
1984 was my favorite.
1984 was my favorite book in it.
Yeah, so that one hit,
the graphic novel version came out.
I don't know what year it came out,
but that one has started to kind of take off a little bit.
What does that graphic novel look like?
Because I saw it's huge.
It's like this big, it's heavy.
(33:35):
I've only ever read 1984 as like a book.
And the most impactful part for me
is just the multiple chapters where it's like verbatim.
The book that Winston was reading
to his girlfriend at the time.
So they really kind of,
the choice of color in it is very stark.
(33:57):
Like it hits you, like you've got the reds
and the neutrals, but it's very,
it's not full color.
It's very like in your face,
this is sameness in its entirety.
They separated by chapter,
but it's not as clear cut as the novel for sure.
But they do a really good job of
(34:19):
kind of making you feel a little scared,
I guess is the best way to put it.
It's got like a mood to it.
Yeah, it's definitely got a mood through color symbolism.
So I'll have to pick it up, sorry.
Yeah, you know, as you're like graphic novels,
I heard you reference TikTok.
We talk about AI from time to time,
as the shifts in technology and pop culture advance,
(34:42):
I'm curious how you see that play out in your classrooms.
And I can tell by the look on your face, Emily,
that it's not always a great thing.
It's not always a great thing.
There are some great things that we can talk about.
There are some great ways to use AI in the classroom.
Overall though, it can be very frustrating
because, and I don't blame kids for being tempted by it.
(35:05):
It's very easy to, you know, I just tried it today.
I cut and paste my entire assignment that I had given
into chat GPT to see what it would spit out.
And it confirmed what I was hearing.
Oh, like to produce a-
Yeah, so I had written this really,
we're reading a book that's an adapted version
(35:26):
of the Odyssey, and I wanted them to create their own story
that could fit into the, it's called the missing chapter.
It's just a creative writing idea
where they try to mimic the style of the writing
and they insert it in, it could be inserted into the story.
So they, it has to have all these qualities
of the story that we're reading.
So I wrote this great assignment
and I think that I shot myself in the foot
(35:47):
because if I had given it orally,
then they wouldn't have been able to replicate.
So I, several kids used chat GPT and got caught
because it's very easy to tell
when a ninth grader is using it.
Yeah, large language models, their specialty is adapting
other people's work and especially like an assignment
(36:10):
like that where they're attempting to create something
in a similar voice to-
It's worth it, chat GPT did it very well.
So, these are kids that I know struggle
with grammar and punctuation
and they're writing these flawless, long, complicated.
So it's very, and I tell them at the beginning of the year,
I can smell it from a mile away, so don't try it,
(36:30):
but they didn't believe me.
So it was a good life lesson.
I was, I don't punish the first time I just say like,
look, you cannot do this, it's not your work,
it's cheating, it's plagiarism.
And it's not why we're here.
We're not here to see what the computer can spit out.
I wanna see your thinking.
So even if it's poorly written,
(36:51):
I'd rather see your writing.
So I give everybody a first warning
and then hope they don't do it again.
But I had the thought today,
like I wish this didn't exist.
It is very frustrating that students think
that this is a way to do an assignment.
And I know that, you know, it's not,
(37:11):
this is not the, certainly not the first time
that we've dealt with possible plagiarism with students.
And they need to be educated about how it can be used
because it can be used as, if you,
somebody recently said, think of it as a peer
or a colleague that's going, you can bounce ideas off of,
you can use it as a tool,
(37:33):
but you can't let it do all the work for you
and then turn it in.
So it's too easy for kids.
It's like the shortcut that they think
is going to solve other problems.
And so there are some really cool assignments
that I've heard of and done in class that use AI,
(37:55):
which I can talk about,
but do you want to talk first about how it's frustrating?
Yeah, no, I think, I think you've kind of,
the last piece you said is a piece I want to expand upon,
this idea that like, I am trying now,
especially I would say last year and this year,
to be more transparent from the get-go
about how I've used AI as a tool, as a teacher,
(38:17):
how they can use it as a tool.
But at the end of the day, I want to see their thinking.
If I wanted, if I wanted the computers thinking,
I wouldn't even give them the assignment.
And I also have like, similarly to Emily,
if somebody does use it,
I have the conversation around trust and, you know,
and respect for themselves and for like their own learning.
(38:41):
And a lot of times I think it's that learning moment
that allows them to almost appreciate what happens next,
even more maybe.
And I think when it comes down to it,
there are so many, like I've seen,
I've gotten so many emails in my already full inbox
about professional development around AI
and what are we going to do and what does this mean?
(39:03):
And how can we, you know, accept essays anymore?
Maybe we'll have to stop doing essays altogether.
Like all this stuff coming to my inbox.
And I'm like, okay, hold on.
There's gotta be a way to approach this
with a structure and system that works.
And I think that's what we keep coming back to
is this idea of everything's evolving.
(39:26):
We have to evolve our structures that, you know,
historically have been.
And it's a thing that exists.
So how do you?
It's not gonna go away.
Right.
I said that kind of, you know, tongue in cheek.
I wish it would go away.
But I think mathematicians said that
about the calculator too.
Right, right.
Just anything that is considered a shortcut.
And there are ways to work with it.
And so teaching students responsibility
(39:46):
around this new powerful tool
that we're so figuring out.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry.
Regarding that calculator example.
So I've never used AI for the synthesis or adaptations,
adaptation of ideas or the development
of anything that I've submitted.
But I am awful at spelling and I'm awful at punctuation.
(40:09):
And every single assignment, I run it through ChatGBT.
Do you think that it's still valuable
to teach kids grammar and stuff?
Like I think an understanding of linguistics
is really important.
And I really like that.
But like the rote memorization of spelling and stuff.
And that's your analogy with the calculator.
(40:30):
Like this tool exists.
Kids no longer know how to do a ton of brute multiplication.
And I'm an AP calc right now
and I never do brute multiplication
because I can just do it on my phone.
Yeah.
Yes, I still think it's important to teach grammar.
But I do also think that, you know,
I encourage them to use the tools
that are on their laptops to proofread.
(40:50):
And I think teaching grammar is not just spelling
and where to put a period and when to use an apostrophe,
which your computer can help you with.
And by all means that students should use all those tools.
But I think learning grammar can teach stylistically
some interesting ways to put a sentence together that.
Which is what I was addressing
with an understanding of linguistics, right?
(41:12):
Like I think learning Latin has helped my English
become far more interesting,
developed and varied.
And I think that's very important.
But I'm thinking more like punctuation.
I never learned how to apply punctuation
and or I never absorbed how to apply punctuation.
(41:33):
Maybe because you didn't have to.
Yeah.
Because the computer was your friend
and tapping you.
I mean, it's a great time to be a poor speller
because the computer will fix everything pretty much for you.
That's right, instantaneously.
I also think this brings back again,
that overarching theme of like,
how do we teach young people
how to use tools so that they can still represent themselves
(41:53):
the way that they want to,
express themselves the way they want to.
I think, I was teaching citations the other day
and we ended up talking about how
you can remove the period from a citation
to put it at the very end,
but you shouldn't remove a question mark
and an exclamation point
because that's a part of expression, right?
It means something.
(42:13):
It means something.
And so there's this idea of showing the meaning
beyond just the skill itself.
Like, what is it doing for you?
How is it showing what it is you want to say,
what it is you want to be heard as, what it is,
whether you're talking grammar or really anything.
And then the tools that we have absolutely use them.
(42:36):
And I think my bigger hardship
is when students have the tools,
I've taught them how to use them
and then they still don't get used.
Yes, that drives me crazy.
And then I have to figure out, okay,
what next step do I have to take
to make sure that everything kind of comes together?
You know?
(42:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So as we start wrapping this discussion up,
I wanted to kind of end on this note of
that teachers are human
and you all are people with lives
and interests and things
(43:17):
and just like all of us in every other profession,
a tough day can, you know, that tough commute,
that getting stuck in traffic, the flat tire,
the slip on the ice, whatever that is,
it impacts our day.
And so to balance that,
I'm curious about what your most joyful
(43:39):
moments of teaching have been
that remind you that this is why I do what I do.
And it comes back to maybe your how you started
with that inspired insight,
but I'm just thinking about giving you a chance
to share a moment in time that kind of summarizes your why,
why I do what I do, why I chose this
(44:01):
and keeps you motivated to that other Brene Brown quote
about collecting joy and fueling resilience.
So a moment that reminds you that I'm an educator, I matter,
and this is why I do that.
So I have a very specific answer to that question,
(44:23):
which is that about probably 12 years ago,
I said out loud to my class for the first time
that I have anxiety and it was such a relief for me
to say it and to own it and it actually made me feel better
at the time because one of the ways
(44:44):
that anxiety manifests itself for me
is just sort of a performance anxiety.
And then here I am in front of kids all day
and feeling like I have to constantly act like
I have it all together and everything's easy
and I'm very capable and this is all no problem.
And I went through a stretch of my life
where I was getting panicky in the middle of my teaching day
(45:04):
and I finally just owned it and told my students
that I was feeling that way and that it's something
that I have struggled with.
And it became completely my superpower as an educator
because first of all, it made me feel better, as I mentioned,
but I had so many students approach me
that they couldn't believe that I was anxious
(45:26):
and that I was talking about it
and that they, and then they would share
how they were anxious.
And so I guess just being human in front of my students
and realizing that I really enjoy their company
at the end of the day and that if they just see me
as somebody that also struggles sometimes, but shows up,
then they're gonna feel safe.
(45:48):
Yeah.
Oh, thanks, Emily.
You know, I think of a lot of different small moments,
but one moment that kind of keeps coming back up to me
is when I switched positions at school districts
a couple of years ago.
When I told my class, it was near the end of the senior year
(46:10):
and this was a class that we often had,
Harry Oakey Friday, we'd spend the last five
to 10 minutes of pause with our pencil microphones
that had like, safe flowers on top
and we would just kind of jam out whether.
Taylor Swift, of course.
They were big fans of the belonging.
Yeah.
Love story, but they also put some Miley Cyrus
(46:32):
to climb in there, so.
With that class in particular,
I told them that I was moving to a different position
and a couple weeks later,
they had their end of the gear field trip
and when we got back, we were on the bus
or we were turning into the school parking lot
and someone started playing,
(46:54):
You Belong With Me on their phone
and the whole bus started singing
and most of the kids were kids that were mine,
but there were some kids that weren't in my class
that they all just started singing
and one girl that was sitting across from me started prying
and I moved over and she just hugged me
and she wouldn't let go.
(47:15):
Yeah.
And then we get off the bus
and they all just kind of come around
and it was just kind of that moment of,
Oh, I have chills, yeah.
And there were lots of tears had
in the last day, but it was that moment
of this is why taking five minutes to sing karaoke
(47:38):
or taking 10 minutes to teach them a line dance
before winter break,
photo bombing, whatever picture it was they're taking,
it's why it all comes together and makes sense.
You know, and it's exactly why.
Yeah, well, that's awesome.
And I can say with a hundred percent honesty
(48:03):
that it's not only because I know you both
and our lives have interconnected,
it was important for Soren and I to have you on this episode
because you are two of the most impactful educators
I've ever met, having educated family members of mine
who still talk about you.
I'm trying to use that as a-
I know.
(48:23):
And who listens to this podcast, Bella, if you're listening
and having friends whose kids have had you, Emily,
who still talk about you and what you do matters
and how you show up for kids each and every day
(48:43):
is just so inspiring and keep doing what you're doing.
And thank you so much for being part of our little podcast
with Soren and I.
Yeah, thank you guys so much.
I really love what both of you guys have said
and I'm sure your classroom environments are lovely.
I can attest to this, I know.
(49:03):
Yeah, oh, I love this conversation.
Well, we could go on and on.
Thank you both so, so, so much for being here.
I'm Chris McLaughlin.
I'm Soren Peterson.
This has been Inspired Insights podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you, that was really fun.
The Inspired Insights podcast has been brought to you
(49:23):
by Inspired Consulting Group, LLC.
Edited and produced by Amanda Seidel and Derek Carter.
Marketing support for the Inspired Insights podcast
by Elizabeth Keenan, music by Derek Carter.
Please visit www.inspiredcg.com to learn more.
Copyright 2024, all rights reserved.
The Inspired Insights podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should
(00:04):
not be considered health advice.
This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Please note that this podcast may contain discussions on sensitive topics such as mental
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If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis or need support, please contact the
9-8-8 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline by calling 9-8-8 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.
(00:51):
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Inspired Insights podcast.
We have two lovely guests.
I am your host, Thorne Peterson.
Chris McAllen, welcome.
Wonderful to see you two around the fire pit side chat.
(01:12):
I think that's what we've been calling these.
Fire side chat, FDR.
And these two lovely ladies are...
I'll start.
I am Kelsey Sturinova and I teach English and I am also local Maine born and bred and
the 2022 Maine Teacher of the Year.
(01:32):
Woohoo!
Nice!
And I am Emily Frogmoren, also an English teacher in the state of Maine and have been
in Maine for 25 years now, even though I'm not from Maine.
And I am the 2024 Penobscot County Teacher of the Year.
Yes, we are sitting with royalty.
It's so nice to have you for our listeners in the spirit of transparency.
(01:58):
I have known both of you for years, have traveled and vacationed with your parents and have
been connected with you and your family also for years.
And so we have talked about this particular episode for a while now and I'm just so excited
for you all and our listeners know that Sorin and I have chatted about issues of education
(02:22):
as far back as really our introductory episode as education having two parents being raised
by parents of educators.
This is a topic that's so important to me as well.
So I'm glad and so thankful that both of you could join us.
Yes, I know.
(02:43):
Well, let's start off with our inspired insights.
Alright, Sorin, lead us.
I'm going to go first.
Earlier today, I was reading a bit of Albert Camus, a famous French philosopher, and I
read a quote that really struck me.
(03:04):
We must imagine Sisyphus happy.
And this is regarding how the fight against our seemingly unending issues and the turmoil
of life is what we should derive our happiness from, not our end state.
(03:28):
And that's something that drives me a lot and I find very powerful.
I actually followed that this time.
Yeah, that's a good one.
Embrace the absurdity of life.
I love it.
I love it.
My inspired insight of the week.
So we've been talking about this for a while.
(03:49):
My 50th birthday has now finally come and gone.
We've been leading up to it for a while.
And part of the birthday celebration was a new tattoo.
And we've talked about this idea of the let them philosophy for a while.
And I think there's something about turning 50 that makes that click on a little even
(04:12):
bit more prominently.
And so as we approach what I anticipate to be a contentious election season, I think
let them is probably where I'm camping out in my inspired insight of the week.
Just the importance of that being a thing.
(04:34):
With the election already having happened.
Yes.
Already have happened, which is wild to even think about.
Yes.
What does the future hold?
Well mine piggybacks very nicely off of Chris.
This is Emily.
I also turned 50 this year and this quote actually dovetails nicely with yours.
(04:56):
So this is a Roosevelt quote, but it comes to the forefront of my mind this week because
I heard it again in a Brene Brown podcast and it is the man in the arena.
So we can, we can use, well, let's all read it as it's written, which is with man, but
we can just remember this applies to all humans.
(05:17):
It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles
or where the doer of deeds could have done them better.
The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust
and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who airs, who comes short again and again.
And if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly.
(05:39):
And that quote is a huge inspiration to Brene because she actually named a book after the
daring greatly quote.
Just as somebody who struggles with anxiety, I really have to remind myself constantly
to not worry about the critics, especially the critics that are criticizing from a place
of not putting themselves out there.
(05:59):
And so in teaching, it's something I really strive to talk about with my students, but
also in my life, I have to remind myself that no matter how it goes, it's always better
to put yourself out there and try and that you're always stronger for the trying and
to sort of quiet those critics that are always around because maybe they're not trying it
(06:21):
themselves, but you're the one out there.
Yeah.
The magic of turning 50.
I know, right?
Curtain's part.
Kelsey.
I'm going to take my inspiration from a student today.
Actually, I was thinking it connects really well actually to this idea of let them, but
also this idea of pushing through moments of difficulty or moments that you feel like
(06:46):
you can't accomplish because it's something you've never done before.
So end of the quarter when this was filmed, students are doing book talks right now.
And I had a student who was getting close to the end of quarter hadn't read a second
book and I offered him a book called Orbiting Jupiter by Gary Schmidt.
It takes place in Maine.
(07:07):
And I said, you know, this is a book that I give to students and it's one that I think
every kid should read before they graduate high school.
It's not a hard read, but it's a really meaningful read.
I call it Small But Mighty.
I love a good Small But Mighty book.
And so today he presented his book talk and he had multiple books to choose from, but
he chose that book.
And so he gets up and he shares this book and he's getting increasingly passionate
(07:28):
as he's talking.
And I'm looking at and he was the last one to go, by the way, which was also making him
anxious.
But he gets up there, he talks about this book and immediately after two kids came up
and said, well, I need to read that book.
I need to read that book because I was in foster care when I was younger.
And I think I really I know how it is.
And another kid said, well, I need to read that book because my life wasn't always easy.
(07:49):
And I want to see how this kid's story was.
And this was all happening real time and I'm like, what?
Like, you know, these are like unintended successes of pushing kids to share and letting
them read.
And I hope we'll talk more about that as time goes on.
But this idea of let them and let them read and let them let them be out there and share
themselves in all of their in all of their humanness.
(08:12):
And so that was my inspired moment that I didn't even expect to have today.
But that's so beautiful.
And you know what it also makes me think about?
Zorn and I in our first premiere episode of this season, our topic was around collecting
joy and the importance of intentionally finding those moments of joy and then packing them
away and hanging on to them.
(08:32):
And I imagine, well, for for educators similar to social work, you have to be really on your
game to grab on to those moments because they don't sometimes come as often as we would
like them to be.
And so when you see them get really intentional about packing it away so you can come back
(08:53):
to it.
What a great success.
Yeah.
Thank you all for that.
So when we were prepping for this conversation, you had a topic that I thought would be awesome
to kick us off.
And I think it's a bit of a retrospective and forward look of teaching.
(09:17):
Yeah, so I think today we've addressed the topics of trials and change.
And right in that wheelhouse, I'd like to start the conversation off by asking how you've
noticed the teaching space change both during and after the COVID-19 pandemic and what that's
(09:39):
looked like for your students, for your teaching style, and for your interactions with the
public and the like.
You want me to start, sir?
Okay.
Oh, my goodness, this is a big topic.
So March 2020, you know, sent us all home and we would have had no way to know that
we were not only not going back that year, but that the following teaching year would
(10:03):
be different and really just things would be different from then on.
I would say, and Kelsey, you can jump in any time, but that there are some things that
are better and some things that are harder.
Some of the things that are harder is that the relationship with school changed because
kids were home for over a year and therefore we are now struggling with attendance in a
(10:25):
way because of that relationship.
Some students feel that they can access education from home because so much of what we do is
also offered online in Google Classroom and classroom websites.
So there's sort of a mentality shift that's not always positive, which is that kids don't
feel that they need to be in the building and they're missing out on a lot and we're
(10:48):
missing on having them.
So that's one of the negatives.
One of the positives is that it forced us to really be creative and think outside the
box and to do things that we before would have said, well, you can't do that.
So we have been more creative in the way that we present material, the way that we reach
kids that are at home.
(11:08):
We have more options for kids because we were forced to create them.
So maybe a hybrid situation for a kid that's struggling with mental health.
We may be able to offer an online class here or there, whereas before that wasn't available.
And so in some ways it brought out the best in us as educators because we survived that
(11:30):
and that was crazy that our kids were just at home and we weren't with them anymore.
And then we figured out a way to make it work.
So I think it allowed us to think, okay, well, if we can do that, then we can do this and
this and this.
Yeah.
I think it also, like speaking to that, it also really solidified for everyone outside
(11:52):
of the school realm, just how important relationships between students and teachers really were.
I think, you know, you've always asked kids from the youngest age, who's your favorite
teacher?
What do you love about school?
Like those types of things.
And then COVID came and the ways in which we had to engage students, it was really,
(12:15):
really different.
And a lot of us were doing some of those things before, but it became clear that that was
the way forward.
And so I would say to like, I look at every assignment now and I look at every kid and
I'm like, okay, how is this going to be successful for them?
How am I engaging them to be their best selves?
(12:38):
And the options that we offer kids now are so varied, whereas I think it was a lot more
rigid before.
Agree.
And that was a lot of that was due to policy.
And I think that's an important piece too.
I think by allowing the outside world to come into our virtual classrooms, they saw our
creativity and were able to be like, hey, that's really working.
(13:01):
Thanks for what you're doing.
And then we got to keep doing that.
Whereas before it was like, you have to do this, this and this because this is what's
expected of you.
The hardship around attendance, I think is something that's very real.
And I think it alleviates this or not alleviates.
That's the wrong word.
Let's cut that.
(13:21):
English teachers saying the wrong word.
It really shines a light in a not so great way on the lack of structures that are in
place for kids that need support beyond the walls of a school.
I have been a part of many conversations around what systems do we have to make sure kids
(13:49):
can access school in a way that suits them best.
But there is no policy that exists around attendance and what that looks like for each
individual kid.
And I think that's what we're really going to come up against because no matter what,
I think the squirrel just threw an egg for me.
That was fantastic.
(14:12):
No matter what's going forward, we need to look at how school functions.
And at the end of the day, even though we have changed as educators, the time structure
of school has not changed.
And I think that's something that needs to be talked about at a higher level than just
an individual school, an individual department, an individual state because this is something
(14:33):
matching the school environment to the developmental levels and needs of kids.
You both are talking about innovation and creativity and still bumping up against some
of the rigid structures that exist of business as usual.
(14:55):
And I hear that as a social worker all the time.
Okay, COVID is done, back to normal, back to usual.
We hear it all the time.
Let's get back to normal.
And that's my big question is, why go back?
Why is it always let's go back to something?
Why are we not saying let's look forward, let's evolve, let's see what's working and
(15:19):
let's have conversations around the fire pit?
I agree.
And can I jump in?
Sorry.
I also think that it's not, I hear this comparison all the time of pre-COVID, post-COVID teaching.
I can't think of, and if you can then throw it out there, I can't think of a way that
that benefits our students now to compare them to what it was like four years ago or
(15:42):
two years ago.
I just don't know, their reality is their reality.
We asked for COVID, the struggles that kids have today are definitely impacted by the
year and a half that they missed from COVID, but they're also impacted by technology and
their cell phones that were literally created to cause them to become addicted.
(16:06):
The same pressures that existed prior to March of 2020.
Yeah.
And the mental health issues, which are so much worse now.
So these students that we have now didn't ask for any of this, they're just products
of their time.
And it doesn't, I just can't figure out why it is beneficial to keep going back to how
(16:26):
we used to do things.
That's just not the world we live in anymore.
And those kids, these kids have different needs.
And one thing that I do differently now is I teach a little bit slower.
I don't cover as much material as I used to, but that is also not a negative.
I think diving in really deeply and spending more time on a text is not a negative, but
(16:50):
it is constantly compared to the pace at which we were going before COVID.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
I could not agree more.
And I'm somebody that often talks with different industries that COVID has perhaps forever
changed the way we do the things we do, whether it's teaching, whether it's hybrid or remote
(17:10):
work settings, whether it's how we grocery shop or how we collect our paper supplies
and always thinking about having more or extra.
Yeah.
Soren, as a student during that time, when you hear Emily and Kelsey talk about like
(17:30):
innovation, creativity as an end user, did you feel, I'm curious, did you feel that shift
in doing things more uniquely?
I think that things have certainly transitioned online more.
I don't very much remember my education pre-COVID.
(17:51):
And during COVID, I'm going to be honest, I failed every class.
I failed the last half of seventh grade and then I failed all of eighth grade.
I think your class included.
I think that the most pronounced impact that I've seen is like precipitous psychological
(18:17):
shift in the students that I am interacting with and that are in my classes.
I think that online has, or the internet rather, has allowed students to diverge in interests
and personalities and psychological conditions a lot more than they previously were.
(18:42):
And I think that that is a net neutral shift.
I think it's good in that it's allowed students to express themselves more fully, develop
more unique and individualized personalities.
But I think it has hurt a lot of students in that the education system in the US right
(19:05):
now is still designed for homogeneity.
And a very heterogeneous group being put into a homogeneous school system is creating a
lot of conflict and causing attendance issues like you guys were mentioning.
(19:29):
I don't have the opportunity to interact with a large portion of the student body because
of the classes that I'm taking for the most part.
Like I, it's the same group of like 40 kids that I've been taking classes with my entire
career at school.
But I'd be interested to hear what you guys' perspective on how education is going to shift
(19:55):
to meet the needs of students.
But I don't see a future in which the same homogeneous treatment of students will continue
being successful in the future.
I think we're going to need to hyper specialize education in order to produce a diverse body
(20:16):
of laborers, right?
Because ultimately in my eyes from the utilitarian perspective, school is primarily to produce
an economically productive population.
You guys might have a different perspective on that.
Well, that is true.
But I think there's happy and healthy people.
(20:38):
Right.
Yeah.
Also prepared for adulthood.
Prepared.
Yeah.
Responsible.
Productive.
Engaged in the world.
Curious.
Yeah.
Regardless of host, like regardless of secondary education or vocational training or hanging
out.
You know, I think for me, what I like a theme that the three of you are talking about is
(21:00):
this idea that maybe through COVID, the attention shifted to get really much more student focused.
Like what does this student need?
And Emily, you're talking about how you're even seeing that now of being able to adjust
and bend and flex.
So maybe half day attendance, maybe some remote, some in person, maybe only this day or this
(21:24):
day, maybe coming on site for these classes.
I'm going to let that burn.
See, let them.
But I think that you, the ability to, instead of the collective student body, here's what
is good for all kids.
Honing that in.
(21:45):
What does Chris need?
What does Sora need?
And how do we flex the system to support the kids?
Which is really difficult in big schools, especially.
But I feel like the spirit is moving more in that direction.
And there's a lot more conversation about creating options to tap into every individual
kid's needs.
One of the things, I mean, I start every year and I've done this for many, many years now
(22:08):
with just saying to students, one of the things we're going to think about and talk about
all year is how does what we read as English and an English class, how does what we reconnect
to ourselves in the world around us?
And the idea of that being that my, one of my primary roles is to help you engage in
this safe space with ideas and themes and topics in a way that you feel comfortable
(22:32):
being a productive reader, writer, thinker, speaker.
And if I can help each individual kid feel confident in those aspects before they leave
my classroom, then I'm going to call it a success.
You know, then for some kids that might be, I want to focus in on being a better speaker
and what that looks like.
(22:53):
And maybe that's just being able to have a conversation with three people about something
that I'm passionate about.
Or maybe it's, I want to be a better writer.
And then they produce something that they feel is so profound that they bring it home
and share it with their family where they might not have before, you know?
And so I think a big part of this push forward in education is ultimately we are trying to
(23:16):
help children grow into adults that feel like they can be productive in a way that they
have success and they leave their mark.
Right.
Yeah.
And that will look different for every kid.
And so I think at the individual classroom level, we are working our butts off to make
it a more heterogeneous experience, even if the structure itself doesn't necessarily say
(23:43):
that we can, so to speak.
And at the end of the day, you have, you only have the tools that you have.
And so whether you're a giant thousand plus school kids, school district, or a K through
four school with 60 kids in it.
Like you only have the tools you have.
And we have our, I don't know how many students you have this year, Kelsey, but I have about
(24:07):
85 or 90.
And that's my focus.
I can't do it all.
I can't change the entire system, but I can work with every kid that I have.
And that totally links to safe spaces because that's our goal is to have every kid feel
like we see them, we see how they learn a little differently than the people sitting
(24:30):
right next to them.
We may offer them an opportunity to show us what they know in a slightly different way.
And we can really empower each individual kid.
So it's frustrating when we feel like we have great ideas that, you know, the system's just
too big to fix it all, but we can offer our own insight and we can also just be in our
classrooms with our awesome kids and one kid at a time.
(24:53):
One kid at a time.
Yeah, Sorin and I talk about allyship all the time as well and the importance of representation
and inclusion and safety in all spaces.
And I know that's a big mantra of mine in the work that I do, especially with queer
youth, but kids of all measures of diversity from the left-handed kids to the neurodiverse
(25:18):
kids to the differently abled kids to the BIPOC kids to, yes, the queer kids.
And so I'm curious, what are some of the things you both do intentionally to create that environment,
recognizing Emily to your point, like my scope of influence is my classroom and every kid
that enters this room.
(25:39):
And we do a lot of talking to other teachers and we work with pre-service teachers in some
capacity.
So we do try to spread our web a little wider.
I know I can speak for both of us when free choice reading and putting books in kids'
hands is super important, but Kelsey's really the pro on that.
(26:00):
So I'll let her talk about that one.
And both of us have really amazing classrooms that are super cozy and safe and everything
physically, I mean from tables instead of rows of desks.
I mean, turning off the fluorescent lights and having actual lamps in there, having everything
from having blankets available for kids that are cold, a snack drawer, you know, just then
(26:24):
books of bins, bins of books that they have chosen for themselves.
A teacher that says hello and talks to every kid, tries to talk to every kid every day.
All of that is, might sound generic, but it's so key to offering a kid a space in the building
where they feel that they can breathe and relax and let their guard down.
(26:48):
Obviously, they're going to learn the academics so much easier and more in depth if they feel
that way.
But just on a human level, I like being a place where kids are relieved to walk into
that space.
Yeah.
It's super important.
I can attest to the value of a more like casual learning environment because I like to talk
(27:11):
a lot in class.
And when a teacher makes me feel comfortable to do so and when the setting is more familiar
and casual, less like authoritarian, I am so much more driven to become interested in
what we're discussing and engage with it on a deeper level.
(27:34):
And I think teachers who have done that have really brought me from a place where I hated
the education system and had a loathing for material that I was being taught into a place
where now all I want to do is pursue the things that I'm learning outside of class.
(27:55):
And do more of it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelsey, I know watching your 2022 journey as the main teacher of the year, one of your
platforms was really what Emily referenced around representation and reading.
Do you want to speak a little bit about the power of that for you?
Absolutely.
You know, I think, well, first of all, I will say I was really fortunate to have earned
(28:21):
a book love foundation grant back in 2020, 2021, like it was in the process there.
And even before that, obviously the power of reading and the power of students selecting
what they read, I saw how that was the foundation of my classroom.
But I also want to put out there that it is not always possible for teachers to be able
(28:42):
to facilitate the ability to help kids choose books the way that I have been able to, because
I've been able to.
I'm fortunate enough to have been able to build up a classroom library like I have.
Because of the grants and other resources.
Including the supportive people when I was named teacher of the year.
And so I'm really thankful for that.
I think that a lot of kids do a lot of reading when they're young, if they are fortunate
(29:06):
to have supportive systems that allow them to do that.
And then oftentimes when they get to middle school, there's this drop off.
And that's when you start hearing, I hate reading.
I hate to read.
And I always came back and said, I don't think you hate to read.
I think you haven't found the right book yet.
And I think once I started processing with students, like, let's just pass some books
(29:31):
around.
Let's decorate our walls in our classroom with the books that you love.
One of my favorite things that I do every year is I have our shared shelf and I have
students decorate book spines of their most right from the start, their most impactful
book from the last two years.
It could be favorite or most impactful.
Sometimes those are the same book.
And when they come in after doing those book spines and they see their their shelf all
(29:54):
in place, they go over and they're like, oh, that I've read that book before.
That's such a good book.
Oh, you know, that looks really cool.
I had a student come in.
He's like, I've never seen something like this before.
This is actually way cooler than I thought it was going to be when you told me I had
to color this rectangular paper.
And so a lot of the book pairing that I do comes from getting to know students and knowing
(30:18):
what they care about and who they want to be and what they are right now.
But the students themselves do a lot of the work to matchmaking matchmaking.
And to Emily's point with the classroom, I'm glad she brought that up because I was without
my own classroom for a year.
And one of the things that I missed the most was putting things up on the wall from my
(30:42):
students so that they could then interact with each other through the work that they
did.
And that in itself, I find, creates a safe space because they are able to facilitate
little independent conversations where they learn so much about each other.
Last year, more than ever, I've heard a lot of students after congratulating their peers
(31:02):
if they're presenting something or if they're in discussion, that was a really good point
you made.
They guys just little aside, they think they're not supposed to be talking.
But I all of a sudden, I love that you just supported each other.
Thank you for celebrating each other.
And I make a big deal out of it.
And they think that I'm so cringe.
And it's also cringe.
They say cringe now.
But it's, you know, I just.
Well, you're creating a community.
They're seeing their own work on the walls.
And they're like, they're like, oh, I'm going to do this.
(31:23):
And they're like, oh, I'm going to do this.
And they're like, oh, I'm going to do that.
And so they're in a community, right?
This is my space.
I belong here.
Yeah.
And that is so powerful for kids.
I'm curious, and I know we have listeners thinking this right now and I hate to put
you on the spot, what are some of the titles that come up year after year that you've
been building this shelf?
Absolutely.
So Hey Kiddo by Jarrett Krzysztofia is a graphic novel that comes up every single year.
(31:48):
That is so I do this thing as an aside, I have students when they finished, I put the
book cover on a Google Doc.
I print out all of the book covers
and I put them into a collage.
And so I can see pattern,
well, they can see what each other is reading,
but I can see patterns of books that appear more than once
and so on and so forth.
So I'm pulling that from this right now.
So, Hey Kiddo, Long Way Down by Jason Reynolds
(32:08):
is another really big one,
whether it's the book in verse version
or the graphic novel version.
Those are definitely two that come up
over and over and over again,
year after year, probably since 2020, 2021, I would say.
So they've kind of stood the test of time.
Do you think that's kids like sharing with each other
and kind of like passing the favorite titles down,
class to class to class?
(32:29):
Yes, I definitely think so.
I will say with the overpowering TikTok as it is,
there's been a lot more TikTok reads
in the last couple of years
that have kind of infiltrated the typical common reads
that I've seen.
And I think that there's some pros to that
and some, maybe not, but the pros are,
(32:52):
kids are talking about books more
than I think they ever really have,
which I can appreciate.
So those two for sure.
And then I would also say there's some authors
that kind of have stood the test of time.
People like Kwame Alexander and Nick Stone
and Tiffany Jackson and just to name a few.
And then the 1984 graphic novel
(33:15):
has kind of come around recently.
1984 was my favorite.
1984 was my favorite book in it.
Yeah, so that one hit,
the graphic novel version came out.
I don't know what year it came out,
but that one has started to kind of take off a little bit.
What does that graphic novel look like?
Because I saw it's huge.
It's like this big, it's heavy.
(33:35):
I've only ever read 1984 as like a book.
And the most impactful part for me
is just the multiple chapters where it's like verbatim.
The book that Winston was reading
to his girlfriend at the time.
So they really kind of,
the choice of color in it is very stark.
(33:57):
Like it hits you, like you've got the reds
and the neutrals, but it's very,
it's not full color.
It's very like in your face,
this is sameness in its entirety.
They separated by chapter,
but it's not as clear cut as the novel for sure.
But they do a really good job of
(34:19):
kind of making you feel a little scared,
I guess is the best way to put it.
It's got like a mood to it.
Yeah, it's definitely got a mood through color symbolism.
So I'll have to pick it up, sorry.
Yeah, you know, as you're like graphic novels,
I heard you reference TikTok.
We talk about AI from time to time,
as the shifts in technology and pop culture advance,
(34:42):
I'm curious how you see that play out in your classrooms.
And I can tell by the look on your face, Emily,
that it's not always a great thing.
It's not always a great thing.
There are some great things that we can talk about.
There are some great ways to use AI in the classroom.
Overall though, it can be very frustrating
because, and I don't blame kids for being tempted by it.
(35:05):
It's very easy to, you know, I just tried it today.
I cut and paste my entire assignment that I had given
into chat GPT to see what it would spit out.
And it confirmed what I was hearing.
Oh, like to produce a-
Yeah, so I had written this really,
we're reading a book that's an adapted version
(35:26):
of the Odyssey, and I wanted them to create their own story
that could fit into the, it's called the missing chapter.
It's just a creative writing idea
where they try to mimic the style of the writing
and they insert it in, it could be inserted into the story.
So they, it has to have all these qualities
of the story that we're reading.
So I wrote this great assignment
and I think that I shot myself in the foot
(35:47):
because if I had given it orally,
then they wouldn't have been able to replicate.
So I, several kids used chat GPT and got caught
because it's very easy to tell
when a ninth grader is using it.
Yeah, large language models, their specialty is adapting
other people's work and especially like an assignment
(36:10):
like that where they're attempting to create something
in a similar voice to-
It's worth it, chat GPT did it very well.
So, these are kids that I know struggle
with grammar and punctuation
and they're writing these flawless, long, complicated.
So it's very, and I tell them at the beginning of the year,
I can smell it from a mile away, so don't try it,
(36:30):
but they didn't believe me.
So it was a good life lesson.
I was, I don't punish the first time I just say like,
look, you cannot do this, it's not your work,
it's cheating, it's plagiarism.
And it's not why we're here.
We're not here to see what the computer can spit out.
I wanna see your thinking.
So even if it's poorly written,
(36:51):
I'd rather see your writing.
So I give everybody a first warning
and then hope they don't do it again.
But I had the thought today,
like I wish this didn't exist.
It is very frustrating that students think
that this is a way to do an assignment.
And I know that, you know, it's not,
(37:11):
this is not the, certainly not the first time
that we've dealt with possible plagiarism with students.
And they need to be educated about how it can be used
because it can be used as, if you,
somebody recently said, think of it as a peer
or a colleague that's going, you can bounce ideas off of,
you can use it as a tool,
(37:33):
but you can't let it do all the work for you
and then turn it in.
So it's too easy for kids.
It's like the shortcut that they think
is going to solve other problems.
And so there are some really cool assignments
that I've heard of and done in class that use AI,
(37:55):
which I can talk about,
but do you want to talk first about how it's frustrating?
Yeah, no, I think, I think you've kind of,
the last piece you said is a piece I want to expand upon,
this idea that like, I am trying now,
especially I would say last year and this year,
to be more transparent from the get-go
about how I've used AI as a tool, as a teacher,
(38:17):
how they can use it as a tool.
But at the end of the day, I want to see their thinking.
If I wanted, if I wanted the computers thinking,
I wouldn't even give them the assignment.
And I also have like, similarly to Emily,
if somebody does use it,
I have the conversation around trust and, you know,
and respect for themselves and for like their own learning.
(38:41):
And a lot of times I think it's that learning moment
that allows them to almost appreciate what happens next,
even more maybe.
And I think when it comes down to it,
there are so many, like I've seen,
I've gotten so many emails in my already full inbox
about professional development around AI
and what are we going to do and what does this mean?
(39:03):
And how can we, you know, accept essays anymore?
Maybe we'll have to stop doing essays altogether.
Like all this stuff coming to my inbox.
And I'm like, okay, hold on.
There's gotta be a way to approach this
with a structure and system that works.
And I think that's what we keep coming back to
is this idea of everything's evolving.
(39:26):
We have to evolve our structures that, you know,
historically have been.
And it's a thing that exists.
So how do you?
It's not gonna go away.
Right.
I said that kind of, you know, tongue in cheek.
I wish it would go away.
But I think mathematicians said that
about the calculator too.
Right, right.
Just anything that is considered a shortcut.
And there are ways to work with it.
And so teaching students responsibility
(39:46):
around this new powerful tool
that we're so figuring out.
Oh, sorry.
Sorry.
Regarding that calculator example.
So I've never used AI for the synthesis or adaptations,
adaptation of ideas or the development
of anything that I've submitted.
But I am awful at spelling and I'm awful at punctuation.
(40:09):
And every single assignment, I run it through ChatGBT.
Do you think that it's still valuable
to teach kids grammar and stuff?
Like I think an understanding of linguistics
is really important.
And I really like that.
But like the rote memorization of spelling and stuff.
And that's your analogy with the calculator.
(40:30):
Like this tool exists.
Kids no longer know how to do a ton of brute multiplication.
And I'm an AP calc right now
and I never do brute multiplication
because I can just do it on my phone.
Yeah.
Yes, I still think it's important to teach grammar.
But I do also think that, you know,
I encourage them to use the tools
that are on their laptops to proofread.
(40:50):
And I think teaching grammar is not just spelling
and where to put a period and when to use an apostrophe,
which your computer can help you with.
And by all means that students should use all those tools.
But I think learning grammar can teach stylistically
some interesting ways to put a sentence together that.
Which is what I was addressing
with an understanding of linguistics, right?
(41:12):
Like I think learning Latin has helped my English
become far more interesting,
developed and varied.
And I think that's very important.
But I'm thinking more like punctuation.
I never learned how to apply punctuation
and or I never absorbed how to apply punctuation.
(41:33):
Maybe because you didn't have to.
Yeah.
Because the computer was your friend
and tapping you.
I mean, it's a great time to be a poor speller
because the computer will fix everything pretty much for you.
That's right, instantaneously.
I also think this brings back again,
that overarching theme of like,
how do we teach young people
how to use tools so that they can still represent themselves
(41:53):
the way that they want to,
express themselves the way they want to.
I think, I was teaching citations the other day
and we ended up talking about how
you can remove the period from a citation
to put it at the very end,
but you shouldn't remove a question mark
and an exclamation point
because that's a part of expression, right?
It means something.
(42:13):
It means something.
And so there's this idea of showing the meaning
beyond just the skill itself.
Like, what is it doing for you?
How is it showing what it is you want to say,
what it is you want to be heard as, what it is,
whether you're talking grammar or really anything.
And then the tools that we have absolutely use them.
(42:36):
And I think my bigger hardship
is when students have the tools,
I've taught them how to use them
and then they still don't get used.
Yes, that drives me crazy.
And then I have to figure out, okay,
what next step do I have to take
to make sure that everything kind of comes together?
You know?
(42:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So as we start wrapping this discussion up,
I wanted to kind of end on this note of
that teachers are human
and you all are people with lives
and interests and things
(43:17):
and just like all of us in every other profession,
a tough day can, you know, that tough commute,
that getting stuck in traffic, the flat tire,
the slip on the ice, whatever that is,
it impacts our day.
And so to balance that,
I'm curious about what your most joyful
(43:39):
moments of teaching have been
that remind you that this is why I do what I do.
And it comes back to maybe your how you started
with that inspired insight,
but I'm just thinking about giving you a chance
to share a moment in time that kind of summarizes your why,
why I do what I do, why I chose this
(44:01):
and keeps you motivated to that other Brene Brown quote
about collecting joy and fueling resilience.
So a moment that reminds you that I'm an educator, I matter,
and this is why I do that.
So I have a very specific answer to that question,
(44:23):
which is that about probably 12 years ago,
I said out loud to my class for the first time
that I have anxiety and it was such a relief for me
to say it and to own it and it actually made me feel better
at the time because one of the ways
(44:44):
that anxiety manifests itself for me
is just sort of a performance anxiety.
And then here I am in front of kids all day
and feeling like I have to constantly act like
I have it all together and everything's easy
and I'm very capable and this is all no problem.
And I went through a stretch of my life
where I was getting panicky in the middle of my teaching day
(45:04):
and I finally just owned it and told my students
that I was feeling that way and that it's something
that I have struggled with.
And it became completely my superpower as an educator
because first of all, it made me feel better, as I mentioned,
but I had so many students approach me
that they couldn't believe that I was anxious
(45:26):
and that I was talking about it
and that they, and then they would share
how they were anxious.
And so I guess just being human in front of my students
and realizing that I really enjoy their company
at the end of the day and that if they just see me
as somebody that also struggles sometimes, but shows up,
then they're gonna feel safe.
(45:48):
Yeah.
Oh, thanks, Emily.
You know, I think of a lot of different small moments,
but one moment that kind of keeps coming back up to me
is when I switched positions at school districts
a couple of years ago.
When I told my class, it was near the end of the senior year
(46:10):
and this was a class that we often had,
Harry Oakey Friday, we'd spend the last five
to 10 minutes of pause with our pencil microphones
that had like, safe flowers on top
and we would just kind of jam out whether.
Taylor Swift, of course.
They were big fans of the belonging.
Yeah.
Love story, but they also put some Miley Cyrus
(46:32):
to climb in there, so.
With that class in particular,
I told them that I was moving to a different position
and a couple weeks later,
they had their end of the gear field trip
and when we got back, we were on the bus
or we were turning into the school parking lot
and someone started playing,
(46:54):
You Belong With Me on their phone
and the whole bus started singing
and most of the kids were kids that were mine,
but there were some kids that weren't in my class
that they all just started singing
and one girl that was sitting across from me started prying
and I moved over and she just hugged me
and she wouldn't let go.
(47:15):
Yeah.
And then we get off the bus
and they all just kind of come around
and it was just kind of that moment of,
Oh, I have chills, yeah.
And there were lots of tears had
in the last day, but it was that moment
of this is why taking five minutes to sing karaoke
(47:38):
or taking 10 minutes to teach them a line dance
before winter break,
photo bombing, whatever picture it was they're taking,
it's why it all comes together and makes sense.
You know, and it's exactly why.
Yeah, well, that's awesome.
And I can say with a hundred percent honesty
(48:03):
that it's not only because I know you both
and our lives have interconnected,
it was important for Soren and I to have you on this episode
because you are two of the most impactful educators
I've ever met, having educated family members of mine
who still talk about you.
I'm trying to use that as a-
I know.
(48:23):
And who listens to this podcast, Bella, if you're listening
and having friends whose kids have had you, Emily,
who still talk about you and what you do matters
and how you show up for kids each and every day
(48:43):
is just so inspiring and keep doing what you're doing.
And thank you so much for being part of our little podcast
with Soren and I.
Yeah, thank you guys so much.
I really love what both of you guys have said
and I'm sure your classroom environments are lovely.
I can attest to this, I know.
(49:03):
Yeah, oh, I love this conversation.
Well, we could go on and on.
Thank you both so, so, so much for being here.
I'm Chris McLaughlin.
I'm Soren Peterson.
This has been Inspired Insights podcast.
Thank you.
Thank you, that was really fun.
The Inspired Insights podcast has been brought to you
(49:23):
by Inspired Consulting Group, LLC.
Edited and produced by Amanda Seidel and Derek Carter.
Marketing support for the Inspired Insights podcast
by Elizabeth Keenan, music by Derek Carter.
Please visit www.inspiredcg.com to learn more.
Copyright 2024, all rights reserved.
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