November 29, 2024 • 26 mins
In this 2-part episode, Chris and Soren are joined by their two younger brothers to discuss the unique experiences and valuable lessons learned from growing up with older queer siblings. They share how these relationships shaped their understanding of diversity and acceptance, providing a heartfelt look into the dynamics of a supportive family environment and the importance of allyship within the family.
inspiredinsights@inspiredcg.com
https://www.youtube.com/@InspiredInsightsPodcast
*This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered health advice. This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
**Please note that this episode contains sensitive behavioral health topics such as suicide and substance use. If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis, please contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline by calling 988 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi friends, welcome to this week's episode of the Inspired Insights Podcast.
(00:04):
Today we're kicking off something really special, our first two-part episode.
Sword and I invited our younger brothers to join us and there was just so much good stuff
to fit into one episode.
So for part one, we're going to dive into the conversation.
Next week, we'll bring you part two of these episodes.
So let's get started.
(00:25):
The Inspired Insights Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should
not be considered health advice.
This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Please note that this podcast may contain discussions on sensitive topics such as mental
illness, suicide, and substance use.
If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis or need support, please contact the
(00:46):
9-8-8 suicide and crisis lifeline by calling 9-8-8 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.
Hello and welcome to the Inspired Insights Podcast, Brother edition.
(01:19):
I'm Sorin Peterson, a high school student and I'm Chris McLaughlin, Sorin's cohost
on the Inspired Insights Podcast.
We are out in nature again for another guest-filled episode.
I'm going to introduce the good-looking gentleman to my right and my left.
To my right, Nate McLaughlin, Chris's younger brother, younger, barely younger brother.
(01:44):
And to my left, I am Bodie Peterson, Sorin's younger brother.
And I actually think, fun fact, the age difference between you two is almost the same age difference
between the two of us.
We are 14 months.
No, you're the engineer, do the math.
If it's 14 months, it's like the exact same as me and Bodie.
(02:05):
June, we are July, August, September, October.
We are 16 months.
No, we're like 22 months.
Do you have, you have two grade levels?
My two years?
Not even two months.
Oh, I thought it was 23, 23 months.
Perhaps I'm foolish.
Never mind.
So we are, we just figured out we're 16, but two grade levels different in school.
(02:30):
Yeah, two grade levels different in school.
So maybe not chronologically the same age, but school age-wise the same.
Yeah, roughly the same.
The same equivalent experientially.
That's right.
That's right.
So we, Sorin and I, in planning some episodes for the second season of the podcast, thought
it'd be really neat to start bringing in more voices to our conversations.
(02:54):
And we thought, you know, let's go talk to our brothers.
Let's get a sense of how our brothers maybe experienced life with the personalities and
dynamics of having two interesting older brothers might be like.
So we want to talk about that.
We want to talk about current experience, past experience, and then anything else you
(03:20):
all want to talk about today.
So welcome.
Thanks for being here.
Good to see you both.
Sorin, how you been?
Me?
I've been lovely, as always.
And I guess I've been prompted to start it off with our first insight of the day.
And something that is rather themed, I'd say, and has come up in me and Bodhi's relationship
(03:43):
many a time, is that those that are closest to you can often ignite within you the deepest
rage and just deepest emotions, period.
And I think that is something that often comes up in me and Bodhi's relationship.
But I wouldn't say that it dampens our passion for each other.
(04:05):
Yeah, for sure.
And I have an, my inspired insight of the week plays off of that a little bit.
As I was hearing you share yours, something that I have thought about is, and maybe we'll
talk more about this during the course of our conversation, but thinking about how relationships
can change over time.
(04:27):
And someone that you may have had that bitter enemy perspective with as kids can grow up
to be one of your best friends and biggest allies and supporters.
So that's going to be my insight for this conversation.
Bodhi.
I guess I'm going to break off of the brotherly vibe, but still a topic where like looking
(04:51):
at our past, I think oftentimes we look at our wrongdoings and mistakes as negatives,
when a lot of the times they're not negatives.
If you look at them, they're actually positives.
And there's a lot of experience behind that that helps you grow.
And that was kind of inspired by a random YouTube short I was watching this morning.
(05:11):
How the, they're like yogurt was discovered by a mistake of milk sitting to lamb.
And then that sat too long and became cheese.
And every time that mistake was made and broken down, it became more valuable because yogurt's
worth more than milk and cheese is worth more than yogurt and milk combined.
(05:33):
I love that.
So I guess that would be my inspired insight.
I love that, that the biggest mistakes can turn out to be the most productive discovery.
Nate, I saw the same thing you saw.
That's interesting.
This morning.
My insight would be it's never too late to become the person you want to be.
(05:57):
I love that too.
And so, you know, I think as we navigate change and as a parent, as you help your children
navigate change, I think it's important to remember we're not static, that we're dynamic
and whoever or whatever you want to become is possible.
(06:17):
Work towards it.
Yeah.
Which is a huge theme for Soren and I in this podcast is our better days are still ahead
of us and that we're all works in progress.
For sure.
Yeah.
And we've actually made points that we've talked about a lot and how we can leverage
mistakes in order to create positive change in our own lives.
(06:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Cool.
Cool.
Thanks for those insights.
So to kick the conversation off, I want to kind of get into the sibling, the brother
stuff.
And something that Soren and I have talked about in preparation for this conversation
and at least in my relationship with my brother, I don't think we've ever talked about this.
(07:09):
But what was life like going back a couple decades for us, maybe a couple years for you
both?
Couple decades this kind.
Couple decades.
Maybe three.
Well, ish.
What was life like for you in a family where the older sibling was kind of different, not
(07:32):
necessarily fitting in with what the rest of the kids on the street were doing?
Well, I'll take a stab at it.
So I think as I've heard you talk about in the podcast before, you know, Chris, you came
out much later in your life than you, Soren, and so I think our experience together was
(07:53):
one of you being closeted and you being not only closeted, but it was never talked about,
which I guess is closeted.
But it wasn't even like we were having a conversation in private.
And so I think, you know, for me, as I would say, I was a fairly insecure adolescent and
(08:14):
preteen as well, I think there was, it was confusion as I look back on it.
I think it was confusion about, you know, why you were different, as you say.
And it was sort of like, I know my, the driving emotion I would have in the experiences where
your difference would come out would often be one of anger towards, not you, anger towards
(08:41):
whoever might've been bullying you or anger towards whoever was treating you different.
I always wished as I look back on it, that I could have acted on that differently.
I wish I was a more confident individual where I would have spoke up or talked to you about
it.
But I think for me at that time in my life, it was confusing.
(09:01):
I didn't really know what to do with that feeling of anger.
So I think as we, you know, we can get into kind of how our relationship has changed since
you've came out, but I think as a, when we were living together in the same house on
Poplar Street, that was an often emotion I felt.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
(09:21):
We'll definitely come back to that.
Yeah.
You kind of touched on how like, Soren was out at a very young age.
Soren's always drawn a lot of attention, which has definitely pulled some attention for me,
which I'm not looking at that as a negative because that shaped me to who I am.
And that's created my strong individualism and everything like that.
(09:42):
As I've been me and I've allowed myself to grow as an individual and not allowed my family
to hold me back or to try to baby me or anything like that.
And I feel like it's also a big difference is just the time that we're growing up in.
You guys were in the eighties, the nineties, everything like that.
(10:04):
Whereas me and Soren grew up in a very different time.
I always accepted Soren as Soren.
And from a young age, I just, even though I was the younger brother, I still wanted
to help Soren and motivate Soren and allow Soren to be who Soren was.
It was probably 11 or 12 when...
Yeah, I was 11 when COVID hit and all the pride festivals and everything were shut down.
(10:29):
And I actually organized a private pride festival for Soren.
So I feel like it was a different relationship than every other kid, but that was our brotherly
relationship and that's who we are and what we grew up as.
Yeah, Derek and I participated in that drive through COVID Pride Parade for Soren.
(10:55):
And I remember as Derek and I were leaving saying, that was really, really frigging cool.
That was really, really cool.
And you were beaming that entire afternoon.
I mean, there was what?
20, 30 cars of people kind of driving the loop where you all used to live.
(11:15):
Yeah, that was really cool.
Bodhi, you bring up an interesting point about the time that we were coming to age and as
being different and for Nate and I being two grades apart, so kind of being in high school
in the late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s almost, but yeah, where this was absolutely not talked
(11:43):
about.
I mean, I have shared with Soren, I can't think of, and maybe you can Nate, I can't
think of one kid at our school who was out, who was like publicly out as anything, LGB
or T.
I can think of a couple.
I mean, I certainly wouldn't name them.
Yeah, right.
You know, I can think of a couple, but a couple is not a huge number.
(12:05):
Right, right.
So I think it's the same point.
Yeah, and it was just, it wasn't talked about.
I mean, for you all, and Soren has talked about this at length, language is different,
the culture is different, what's accepted or not accepted, bullying absolutely still
exists.
We know that's sort of a universal, but now it almost feels like the kids doing the bullying
(12:30):
are being looked down on as well.
Like that's not cool to be an asshole to other people.
Yeah, he brought up confusion at like how you were confused on what was happening and
whatnot.
But we had, me and Soren at least had the internet.
We've always had that.
It's always been very clear.
(12:52):
And even before Soren was out from that, like I was three or four, but I still understood
that there is a difference between Soren.
And as soon as I had access to the internet, it was very clear.
Like my parents were, it was very obvious that Soren was always queer and different.
And Soren was like always just this bold, bubbly character.
(13:16):
So the confusion was not an element for me where it was kind of obvious, maybe less obvious
for Soren as a confused individual growing up.
But from the outside, it was very clear who Soren was.
And I feel like that confusion was less of an element for me.
A lot of that was due to the open discussion about it and the internet and everything like
(13:40):
that where it was very clear, very accepted or more accepted at least than when you guys
were growing up.
Yeah.
Well, I would also say, you know, the confusion is maybe equal parts about not understanding
what the person is going through, but also that the messaging you're getting from the
world is not aligning with your experience with that person.
(14:04):
So like the world, whatever that is, is telling you that this behavior is wrong or deviant
or demonizing these groups of people, but your experience with them is nothing at all
like that.
And so I think to youth, youth, to you, it's just like how in any situation, how when your
(14:30):
experience doesn't align with the messaging you're being.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
So bringing it back to confusion and perhaps away from queer issues, what was your outlook
when I was like quite mentally ill?
And obviously I think our parents kept you in the dark for a lot of stuff just to shield
(14:53):
you from it.
But like, how were you processing that?
What did you think at the time?
What was your perspective on what was happening?
I mean, it's definitely a scary time.
You seem like from the outside, you were losing you, right?
Yeah.
(15:14):
And I was treating you very poorly at the time as well.
And well, especially because growing up with you, you had that bright bubbly personality,
everything like that.
And that was fading through time and everything like that.
So that definitely brought confusion for me.
Obviously I couldn't understand what you were going through.
(15:34):
And both our parents were obviously trying to shield me, which for me, I almost feel
like made the situation worse.
Yeah.
Because I will say I'm a bit of a control freak and I like to understand what's going
on and whatnot.
Where do you get that?
Yeah.
And not understanding what was going on and being sheltered and everything like that,
(15:57):
I feel like brought up more confusion and almost scared me more because I liked being
able to see the full picture.
Knowing that I couldn't help but still being able to understand what was going on.
But at the time I couldn't see what was going on and I was being sheltered, which has kind
of made it worse for me in the time.
And I imagine Sorin, you grew up and are growing up in a family that is incredibly open.
(16:25):
Like in your household, typically speaking, there's no conversation off limits.
You all talk about it all.
It's wide open.
And to have this experience be so different, like all of a sudden what's happening is very
closed off and quiet.
And you've kind of felt in the dark, I'm sure that increased the anxiety of the situation.
Yeah, for sure.
(16:46):
I have a kind of a question.
Sure.
So like, as we're focusing on what our experience was at that time period, I'm curious like
what each of yours experience was towards us as siblings who weren't living that lifestyle
(17:09):
or weren't having...
I'll stop there as opposed to leading.
Do you want to start with that, Sorin?
Yeah, I remember I was really mean to Bodhi.
I was not kind and I was angry.
I remember thinking a lot, especially when I was quite suicidal.
(17:33):
Bodhi was like the golden boy.
He was my replacement, right?
Because the investment had been lost on me, basically.
So I was like, oh, good, I have a replacement, right?
You guys have one healthy child.
Why do you need two?
And I resented Bodhi for being normal.
(17:57):
And I think I had placed a lot of anger and resentment towards like jocular people and
like masculine men because obviously I had some very negative experiences with that in
middle school.
And Bodhi to me, especially playing football and all that, was the image of that.
(18:19):
So then I think I took a lot of my rage at the people that I saw as my persecutors, whatever,
out on Bodhi and that really wasn't fair to him.
All while he was in the dark and I was actively engaging and really bad.
Yeah, under hey, disgusted.
Yeah, unsafe behaviors and the like.
And receiving treatment and all that.
(18:41):
So I just feel guilty.
Yeah, that's interesting.
And I totally understand.
I totally get that.
I think my experience, there's some similarities there.
I also have very vivid memories of how things seemed to come very easy for my brother.
(19:06):
And so resentment, but for me it was almost jealousy.
And so hearing you say that you weren't a very confident teenager, that wasn't what
was projected into the world, of course.
And so whether it was friends, sports, dating, just existing, just seeming so comfortable
(19:33):
in your skin.
And popularity is an interesting thing.
We've talked about how it's kind of shifted and now there is one group that's by default
more popular than every other group.
You have a lot of academic and theater friends and those friends are super cool and super
(19:54):
popular in those rooms too.
Back when we were in school, that was absolutely not the case.
And so I saw Nate running with the cool kids.
And as we grew up, where we grew up was kind of isolated, kind of in the woods, 20 or so
minutes to get in town.
(20:15):
And so the kids on the street were your first playmates.
And then people start getting licenses and driving and the ability to leave.
And I remember watching Nate leave and I wasn't necessarily going anywhere.
And so I kind of remember like feeling a little left behind, even though we had very different
(20:37):
interests.
But you might remember my junior year in high school, your freshman year, you were running,
you were big track, you know, jumping and running and all of that stuff.
And I took on the role of videotaping your track meets.
And that was a way for me to be involved and fit in knowing that I wasn't going to do any
(21:02):
running or jumping or any athletic anything to try to fit in.
You also might remember my senior year in high school, I tried out for the tennis team
and it was my first time ever trying out for a sports team.
And I tried out because you had played tennis the year before and I didn't make the team.
(21:25):
And I probably covered it okay, but I was furious that here was my, finally I got the
courage to try something and it wasn't successful and it was another way for you to go do straight
(21:46):
boy things and need to not do those things.
So it was tennis being the most, the parallel straight boy.
Good point, good point.
Racquet sports, a different breed.
But yeah, so it wasn't resentment.
Like I was an angry symbol of what you said.
I wasn't angry at you.
I was jealous.
I was similar to what you said, maybe Sorin, about Bodhi.
(22:09):
Like watching the younger sibling embody everything that at that point in my life, I wish I had
too.
Can I share two observations of what Trudis said?
So it's so interesting because it's that, it's what you described, what you started
describing is that trap we all fall into of comparing our insides to somebody else's outside.
(22:33):
And so you were totally describing me or your perception of me as totally different than
how I felt about myself.
And so there's a lesson learned in that, right?
You've got to compare your insides to other people's insides and that takes time to know
what somebody's insides are.
The other thing is just that experience with the tennis team is like something that stands
(22:58):
out really prominently for me as well and just when I was speaking before to the anger
that I felt, I mean, I guess context matters.
I mean, you beat me all the time at tennis.
You were better than I was.
That's the thing.
I was better than you, better than me.
And I knew it.
So I went to the coach and sort of pleaded that that wasn't fair.
(23:23):
Yeah.
And it was whatever, I won't get into the response, but it was just sort of like that
was that probably at that point in my life when I was a sophomore in high school, that's
probably when I was more comfortable stick amp for you.
And so that's just interesting that you bring that up because that's one of the things that
really stands out for me.
(23:43):
Yeah, those core memories of school.
And I think it's important to note as I think about the two of you and I don't, I'd have
to think about it.
I don't know exactly when that when this flip switched.
Nate and I were mortal enemies.
Like my fourth grade school picture has three or four claw marks down the side of my face
(24:08):
from fights.
We got into knock down drag out.
It was almost a daily occurrence and we still kind of talked to our mom about it.
She will bring it up.
Like she thought arm one of our mom's many greatest fears was that that was who we were
(24:30):
going to stay into adulthood that we were going to grow up and keep that.
And I don't even know.
I think it was our closeness to age.
I think it was growing up kind of an isolated street in the middle of the woods.
My friends were your friends, your friends were my friends.
We weren't we spent we were each other's playmates.
(24:50):
We had to keep it like all of it.
We were just together all the time.
And my anger came from somewhere totally different than your sexuality.
We can get into that.
That's another whole.
We can have a parents episode.
Yeah but I you know we daily multiple times a day is and it's so cliche and you know you're
(25:12):
sitting on the couch and there's the couch cushion and that little finger starts creeping
over the line in the cushion and it was immediately mom Nate's on my side of the couch like constant
at each other.
And that's sort of where my insight came from as we were prepping for this conversation
is if I knew I wouldn't have believed you if somebody had told me or given me a crystal
(25:38):
ball and said here's the relationship you and your brother are going to have in just
15 years I would have been like hell no no way we were at each other's throats quite
literally and I'm kind of like I feel bad for our parents a little bit that we were
(25:59):
that Tasmanian double towards each other.
Well I feel bad for our younger selves.
Thanks for joining us for part one of this two part episode featuring Sorna and I's brothers.
Be sure to come back next week and catch the rest of this conversation until then take
care of.
Hi friends, welcome to this week's episode of the Inspired Insights Podcast.
(00:04):
Today we're kicking off something really special, our first two-part episode.
Sword and I invited our younger brothers to join us and there was just so much good stuff
to fit into one episode.
So for part one, we're going to dive into the conversation.
Next week, we'll bring you part two of these episodes.
So let's get started.
(00:25):
The Inspired Insights Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and should
not be considered health advice.
This podcast is not intended to replace professional medical advice.
Please note that this podcast may contain discussions on sensitive topics such as mental
illness, suicide, and substance use.
If you are experiencing a behavioral health crisis or need support, please contact the
(00:46):
9-8-8 suicide and crisis lifeline by calling 9-8-8 or visiting www.988lifeline.org.
Hello and welcome to the Inspired Insights Podcast, Brother edition.
(01:19):
I'm Sorin Peterson, a high school student and I'm Chris McLaughlin, Sorin's cohost
on the Inspired Insights Podcast.
We are out in nature again for another guest-filled episode.
I'm going to introduce the good-looking gentleman to my right and my left.
To my right, Nate McLaughlin, Chris's younger brother, younger, barely younger brother.
(01:44):
And to my left, I am Bodie Peterson, Sorin's younger brother.
And I actually think, fun fact, the age difference between you two is almost the same age difference
between the two of us.
We are 14 months.
No, you're the engineer, do the math.
If it's 14 months, it's like the exact same as me and Bodie.
(02:05):
June, we are July, August, September, October.
We are 16 months.
No, we're like 22 months.
Do you have, you have two grade levels?
My two years?
Not even two months.
Oh, I thought it was 23, 23 months.
Perhaps I'm foolish.
Never mind.
So we are, we just figured out we're 16, but two grade levels different in school.
(02:30):
Yeah, two grade levels different in school.
So maybe not chronologically the same age, but school age-wise the same.
Yeah, roughly the same.
The same equivalent experientially.
That's right.
That's right.
So we, Sorin and I, in planning some episodes for the second season of the podcast, thought
it'd be really neat to start bringing in more voices to our conversations.
(02:54):
And we thought, you know, let's go talk to our brothers.
Let's get a sense of how our brothers maybe experienced life with the personalities and
dynamics of having two interesting older brothers might be like.
So we want to talk about that.
We want to talk about current experience, past experience, and then anything else you
(03:20):
all want to talk about today.
So welcome.
Thanks for being here.
Good to see you both.
Sorin, how you been?
Me?
I've been lovely, as always.
And I guess I've been prompted to start it off with our first insight of the day.
And something that is rather themed, I'd say, and has come up in me and Bodhi's relationship
(03:43):
many a time, is that those that are closest to you can often ignite within you the deepest
rage and just deepest emotions, period.
And I think that is something that often comes up in me and Bodhi's relationship.
But I wouldn't say that it dampens our passion for each other.
(04:05):
Yeah, for sure.
And I have an, my inspired insight of the week plays off of that a little bit.
As I was hearing you share yours, something that I have thought about is, and maybe we'll
talk more about this during the course of our conversation, but thinking about how relationships
can change over time.
(04:27):
And someone that you may have had that bitter enemy perspective with as kids can grow up
to be one of your best friends and biggest allies and supporters.
So that's going to be my insight for this conversation.
Bodhi.
I guess I'm going to break off of the brotherly vibe, but still a topic where like looking
(04:51):
at our past, I think oftentimes we look at our wrongdoings and mistakes as negatives,
when a lot of the times they're not negatives.
If you look at them, they're actually positives.
And there's a lot of experience behind that that helps you grow.
And that was kind of inspired by a random YouTube short I was watching this morning.
(05:11):
How the, they're like yogurt was discovered by a mistake of milk sitting to lamb.
And then that sat too long and became cheese.
And every time that mistake was made and broken down, it became more valuable because yogurt's
worth more than milk and cheese is worth more than yogurt and milk combined.
(05:33):
I love that.
So I guess that would be my inspired insight.
I love that, that the biggest mistakes can turn out to be the most productive discovery.
Nate, I saw the same thing you saw.
That's interesting.
This morning.
My insight would be it's never too late to become the person you want to be.
(05:57):
I love that too.
And so, you know, I think as we navigate change and as a parent, as you help your children
navigate change, I think it's important to remember we're not static, that we're dynamic
and whoever or whatever you want to become is possible.
(06:17):
Work towards it.
Yeah.
Which is a huge theme for Soren and I in this podcast is our better days are still ahead
of us and that we're all works in progress.
For sure.
Yeah.
And we've actually made points that we've talked about a lot and how we can leverage
mistakes in order to create positive change in our own lives.
(06:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Cool.
Cool.
Thanks for those insights.
So to kick the conversation off, I want to kind of get into the sibling, the brother
stuff.
And something that Soren and I have talked about in preparation for this conversation
and at least in my relationship with my brother, I don't think we've ever talked about this.
(07:09):
But what was life like going back a couple decades for us, maybe a couple years for you
both?
Couple decades this kind.
Couple decades.
Maybe three.
Well, ish.
What was life like for you in a family where the older sibling was kind of different, not
(07:32):
necessarily fitting in with what the rest of the kids on the street were doing?
Well, I'll take a stab at it.
So I think as I've heard you talk about in the podcast before, you know, Chris, you came
out much later in your life than you, Soren, and so I think our experience together was
(07:53):
one of you being closeted and you being not only closeted, but it was never talked about,
which I guess is closeted.
But it wasn't even like we were having a conversation in private.
And so I think, you know, for me, as I would say, I was a fairly insecure adolescent and
(08:14):
preteen as well, I think there was, it was confusion as I look back on it.
I think it was confusion about, you know, why you were different, as you say.
And it was sort of like, I know my, the driving emotion I would have in the experiences where
your difference would come out would often be one of anger towards, not you, anger towards
(08:41):
whoever might've been bullying you or anger towards whoever was treating you different.
I always wished as I look back on it, that I could have acted on that differently.
I wish I was a more confident individual where I would have spoke up or talked to you about
it.
But I think for me at that time in my life, it was confusing.
(09:01):
I didn't really know what to do with that feeling of anger.
So I think as we, you know, we can get into kind of how our relationship has changed since
you've came out, but I think as a, when we were living together in the same house on
Poplar Street, that was an often emotion I felt.
Yeah.
That's interesting.
(09:21):
We'll definitely come back to that.
Yeah.
You kind of touched on how like, Soren was out at a very young age.
Soren's always drawn a lot of attention, which has definitely pulled some attention for me,
which I'm not looking at that as a negative because that shaped me to who I am.
And that's created my strong individualism and everything like that.
(09:42):
As I've been me and I've allowed myself to grow as an individual and not allowed my family
to hold me back or to try to baby me or anything like that.
And I feel like it's also a big difference is just the time that we're growing up in.
You guys were in the eighties, the nineties, everything like that.
(10:04):
Whereas me and Soren grew up in a very different time.
I always accepted Soren as Soren.
And from a young age, I just, even though I was the younger brother, I still wanted
to help Soren and motivate Soren and allow Soren to be who Soren was.
It was probably 11 or 12 when...
Yeah, I was 11 when COVID hit and all the pride festivals and everything were shut down.
(10:29):
And I actually organized a private pride festival for Soren.
So I feel like it was a different relationship than every other kid, but that was our brotherly
relationship and that's who we are and what we grew up as.
Yeah, Derek and I participated in that drive through COVID Pride Parade for Soren.
(10:55):
And I remember as Derek and I were leaving saying, that was really, really frigging cool.
That was really, really cool.
And you were beaming that entire afternoon.
I mean, there was what?
20, 30 cars of people kind of driving the loop where you all used to live.
(11:15):
Yeah, that was really cool.
Bodhi, you bring up an interesting point about the time that we were coming to age and as
being different and for Nate and I being two grades apart, so kind of being in high school
in the late 80s, early 90s, mid 90s almost, but yeah, where this was absolutely not talked
(11:43):
about.
I mean, I have shared with Soren, I can't think of, and maybe you can Nate, I can't
think of one kid at our school who was out, who was like publicly out as anything, LGB
or T.
I can think of a couple.
I mean, I certainly wouldn't name them.
Yeah, right.
You know, I can think of a couple, but a couple is not a huge number.
(12:05):
Right, right.
So I think it's the same point.
Yeah, and it was just, it wasn't talked about.
I mean, for you all, and Soren has talked about this at length, language is different,
the culture is different, what's accepted or not accepted, bullying absolutely still
exists.
We know that's sort of a universal, but now it almost feels like the kids doing the bullying
(12:30):
are being looked down on as well.
Like that's not cool to be an asshole to other people.
Yeah, he brought up confusion at like how you were confused on what was happening and
whatnot.
But we had, me and Soren at least had the internet.
We've always had that.
It's always been very clear.
(12:52):
And even before Soren was out from that, like I was three or four, but I still understood
that there is a difference between Soren.
And as soon as I had access to the internet, it was very clear.
Like my parents were, it was very obvious that Soren was always queer and different.
And Soren was like always just this bold, bubbly character.
(13:16):
So the confusion was not an element for me where it was kind of obvious, maybe less obvious
for Soren as a confused individual growing up.
But from the outside, it was very clear who Soren was.
And I feel like that confusion was less of an element for me.
A lot of that was due to the open discussion about it and the internet and everything like
(13:40):
that where it was very clear, very accepted or more accepted at least than when you guys
were growing up.
Yeah.
Well, I would also say, you know, the confusion is maybe equal parts about not understanding
what the person is going through, but also that the messaging you're getting from the
world is not aligning with your experience with that person.
(14:04):
So like the world, whatever that is, is telling you that this behavior is wrong or deviant
or demonizing these groups of people, but your experience with them is nothing at all
like that.
And so I think to youth, youth, to you, it's just like how in any situation, how when your
(14:30):
experience doesn't align with the messaging you're being.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
So bringing it back to confusion and perhaps away from queer issues, what was your outlook
when I was like quite mentally ill?
And obviously I think our parents kept you in the dark for a lot of stuff just to shield
(14:53):
you from it.
But like, how were you processing that?
What did you think at the time?
What was your perspective on what was happening?
I mean, it's definitely a scary time.
You seem like from the outside, you were losing you, right?
Yeah.
(15:14):
And I was treating you very poorly at the time as well.
And well, especially because growing up with you, you had that bright bubbly personality,
everything like that.
And that was fading through time and everything like that.
So that definitely brought confusion for me.
Obviously I couldn't understand what you were going through.
(15:34):
And both our parents were obviously trying to shield me, which for me, I almost feel
like made the situation worse.
Yeah.
Because I will say I'm a bit of a control freak and I like to understand what's going
on and whatnot.
Where do you get that?
Yeah.
And not understanding what was going on and being sheltered and everything like that,
(15:57):
I feel like brought up more confusion and almost scared me more because I liked being
able to see the full picture.
Knowing that I couldn't help but still being able to understand what was going on.
But at the time I couldn't see what was going on and I was being sheltered, which has kind
of made it worse for me in the time.
And I imagine Sorin, you grew up and are growing up in a family that is incredibly open.
(16:25):
Like in your household, typically speaking, there's no conversation off limits.
You all talk about it all.
It's wide open.
And to have this experience be so different, like all of a sudden what's happening is very
closed off and quiet.
And you've kind of felt in the dark, I'm sure that increased the anxiety of the situation.
Yeah, for sure.
(16:46):
I have a kind of a question.
Sure.
So like, as we're focusing on what our experience was at that time period, I'm curious like
what each of yours experience was towards us as siblings who weren't living that lifestyle
(17:09):
or weren't having...
I'll stop there as opposed to leading.
Do you want to start with that, Sorin?
Yeah, I remember I was really mean to Bodhi.
I was not kind and I was angry.
I remember thinking a lot, especially when I was quite suicidal.
(17:33):
Bodhi was like the golden boy.
He was my replacement, right?
Because the investment had been lost on me, basically.
So I was like, oh, good, I have a replacement, right?
You guys have one healthy child.
Why do you need two?
And I resented Bodhi for being normal.
(17:57):
And I think I had placed a lot of anger and resentment towards like jocular people and
like masculine men because obviously I had some very negative experiences with that in
middle school.
And Bodhi to me, especially playing football and all that, was the image of that.
(18:19):
So then I think I took a lot of my rage at the people that I saw as my persecutors, whatever,
out on Bodhi and that really wasn't fair to him.
All while he was in the dark and I was actively engaging and really bad.
Yeah, under hey, disgusted.
Yeah, unsafe behaviors and the like.
And receiving treatment and all that.
(18:41):
So I just feel guilty.
Yeah, that's interesting.
And I totally understand.
I totally get that.
I think my experience, there's some similarities there.
I also have very vivid memories of how things seemed to come very easy for my brother.
(19:06):
And so resentment, but for me it was almost jealousy.
And so hearing you say that you weren't a very confident teenager, that wasn't what
was projected into the world, of course.
And so whether it was friends, sports, dating, just existing, just seeming so comfortable
(19:33):
in your skin.
And popularity is an interesting thing.
We've talked about how it's kind of shifted and now there is one group that's by default
more popular than every other group.
You have a lot of academic and theater friends and those friends are super cool and super
(19:54):
popular in those rooms too.
Back when we were in school, that was absolutely not the case.
And so I saw Nate running with the cool kids.
And as we grew up, where we grew up was kind of isolated, kind of in the woods, 20 or so
minutes to get in town.
(20:15):
And so the kids on the street were your first playmates.
And then people start getting licenses and driving and the ability to leave.
And I remember watching Nate leave and I wasn't necessarily going anywhere.
And so I kind of remember like feeling a little left behind, even though we had very different
(20:37):
interests.
But you might remember my junior year in high school, your freshman year, you were running,
you were big track, you know, jumping and running and all of that stuff.
And I took on the role of videotaping your track meets.
And that was a way for me to be involved and fit in knowing that I wasn't going to do any
(21:02):
running or jumping or any athletic anything to try to fit in.
You also might remember my senior year in high school, I tried out for the tennis team
and it was my first time ever trying out for a sports team.
And I tried out because you had played tennis the year before and I didn't make the team.
(21:25):
And I probably covered it okay, but I was furious that here was my, finally I got the
courage to try something and it wasn't successful and it was another way for you to go do straight
(21:46):
boy things and need to not do those things.
So it was tennis being the most, the parallel straight boy.
Good point, good point.
Racquet sports, a different breed.
But yeah, so it wasn't resentment.
Like I was an angry symbol of what you said.
I wasn't angry at you.
I was jealous.
I was similar to what you said, maybe Sorin, about Bodhi.
(22:09):
Like watching the younger sibling embody everything that at that point in my life, I wish I had
too.
Can I share two observations of what Trudis said?
So it's so interesting because it's that, it's what you described, what you started
describing is that trap we all fall into of comparing our insides to somebody else's outside.
(22:33):
And so you were totally describing me or your perception of me as totally different than
how I felt about myself.
And so there's a lesson learned in that, right?
You've got to compare your insides to other people's insides and that takes time to know
what somebody's insides are.
The other thing is just that experience with the tennis team is like something that stands
(22:58):
out really prominently for me as well and just when I was speaking before to the anger
that I felt, I mean, I guess context matters.
I mean, you beat me all the time at tennis.
You were better than I was.
That's the thing.
I was better than you, better than me.
And I knew it.
So I went to the coach and sort of pleaded that that wasn't fair.
(23:23):
Yeah.
And it was whatever, I won't get into the response, but it was just sort of like that
was that probably at that point in my life when I was a sophomore in high school, that's
probably when I was more comfortable stick amp for you.
And so that's just interesting that you bring that up because that's one of the things that
really stands out for me.
(23:43):
Yeah, those core memories of school.
And I think it's important to note as I think about the two of you and I don't, I'd have
to think about it.
I don't know exactly when that when this flip switched.
Nate and I were mortal enemies.
Like my fourth grade school picture has three or four claw marks down the side of my face
(24:08):
from fights.
We got into knock down drag out.
It was almost a daily occurrence and we still kind of talked to our mom about it.
She will bring it up.
Like she thought arm one of our mom's many greatest fears was that that was who we were
(24:30):
going to stay into adulthood that we were going to grow up and keep that.
And I don't even know.
I think it was our closeness to age.
I think it was growing up kind of an isolated street in the middle of the woods.
My friends were your friends, your friends were my friends.
We weren't we spent we were each other's playmates.
(24:50):
We had to keep it like all of it.
We were just together all the time.
And my anger came from somewhere totally different than your sexuality.
We can get into that.
That's another whole.
We can have a parents episode.
Yeah but I you know we daily multiple times a day is and it's so cliche and you know you're
(25:12):
sitting on the couch and there's the couch cushion and that little finger starts creeping
over the line in the cushion and it was immediately mom Nate's on my side of the couch like constant
at each other.
And that's sort of where my insight came from as we were prepping for this conversation
is if I knew I wouldn't have believed you if somebody had told me or given me a crystal
(25:38):
ball and said here's the relationship you and your brother are going to have in just
15 years I would have been like hell no no way we were at each other's throats quite
literally and I'm kind of like I feel bad for our parents a little bit that we were
(25:59):
that Tasmanian double towards each other.
Well I feel bad for our younger selves.
Thanks for joining us for part one of this two part episode featuring Sorna and I's brothers.
Be sure to come back next week and catch the rest of this conversation until then take
care of.
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