Mindful Investing: Integrating Values and Impact in Investment Decisions

Episode Transcript
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(00:51):
Aloha, Inspired Money Maker welcome back to
Inspired Money. If this is your first time joining us, welcome. If
you're returning, welcome back. In traditional
finance, the story has always been the same. Invest to
maximize your returns. Full stop. But what if there's more to the
story? You're reviewing your investment

(01:13):
portfolio, your numbers, tickers, performance charts.
Everything looks fine, but something feels off.
You're supporting industries maybe you don't choose to support in
real life, things like fossil fuels, questionable labor
practices, or companies with values that don't reflect your own.
For a growing number of people, that disconnect is too big

(01:35):
to ignore. So today we're exploring a new
way forward. Mindful investing. It's not just about growing
your wealth, but about growing it with intention. It's about
asking, can my money do well and do good?
Whether it's integrating environmental, social and governance
factors, investing with a gender or racial

(01:58):
equity lens, or seeking positive impact through
public markets and beyond, this episode is about turning capital
into a force for change and long term value.
We'll break down what mindful investing really means, how it works
in practice, and how to avoid the traps like greenwashing.
Along the way, you'll hear from leaders at the forefront of sustainable finance

(02:21):
systems thinking and values driven investing. So if
you've ever wondered whether your portfolio can reflect your purpose,
stick around. This conversation might change the way that you think about
money. We've assembled a great panel of experts today, so stay
tuned. Before we dive in, I want to thank today's
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(02:43):
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(03:26):
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and

(03:50):
start making more informed investment decisions today. Now let's
meet our incredible lineup of guests. Our
first guest is a true pioneer in sustainable investing.
John Streur is
Chief Investment Officer of All
Material Risk Investment Strategies, better known as

(04:12):
AMRIS, at Boston
Common Asset Management. Before this, he served as President
and CEO of Calvert Research and Management where he
helped grow the firm from $11 billion to over $40 billion in
assets under management. John led groundbreaking initiatives including
the Calvert Principles, the Calvert Research System and the

(04:34):
Calvert Indices, advancing ESG integration long
before it was mainstream. He brings decades of experience
and a global view on how to connect investment performance with
long term impact. John, welcome. Thank you.
Pleased to be here. Our next guest is a leading voice in values
aligned investing. Dr. Kristin Hull is the founder and Chief Investment

(04:57):
Officer of Nia Impact Capital where she
focuses on social justice, environmental sustainability and
gender equality. Kristin is widely known
for pioneering gender lens investing in public markets
and for developing thematic portfolios that
reflect the world that we want to live in. She started her

(05:20):
career in education before turning her energy toward transforming
finance itself and she has not looked back since.
Her work sits at the intersection of purpose and
performance. Kristin, so glad that you made it.

(05:43):
And rounding out our panel is a thinker and builder
challenging us to reimagine the very foundations of business and
investing. Dr. Manel Pretel-Wilson is a
social entrepreneur, system scientist and sustainability leader
with a deep academic background including a Ph.D. in system
science and multiple Master's degrees in International

(06:05):
Relations and Sustainability. His forthcoming book,
the Ethics of Human Creating Economic Value with
Impact for Good comes out in August of
2025. It presents a bold framework for
integrating ethics directly into economic systems.
Monell brings a rigorous values first lens to impact

(06:26):
investing that's both philosophical and deeply practical.
I want to give a shout out to Jed Emerson of Blended Value Group for
connecting us with Manel. Manel, welcome. Thank
you very much. With this dream team of experts, we're
in for an informative, inspiring conversation.

(06:46):
Let's jump right into segment one. Mindful investing
integrates financial goals with ethical and sustainability
considerations. Unlike traditional approaches, it may
factor in environmental, social and governance criteria.
Alongside financial returns, investors can use strategies
like negative screening to avoid industries that conflict with their

(07:08):
values or positive screening to prioritize companies with
strong ESG performance. The United Nations Sustainable
Development Goals provide a framework for aligning investments with global
sustainability targets. For instance, funding renewable energy
projects supports SDG 7 while investing in gender
equality focused businesses aligns with SDG 5.

(07:30):
One challenge is measuring impact consistently. ESG
scores vary across rating agencies, and impact washing remains
a risk. However, growing transparency and regulatory
initiatives worldwide are improving accountability.
Balancing financial returns with social impact requires
strategic diversification. Understanding available data

(07:51):
and setting realistic expectations can help investors make
informed decisions that reflect both their financial and ethical
priorities.
John, you helped create the Calvert Principles more than a decade ago.
How did that framework change your own view of investing when you first

(08:13):
implemented it? That's a great question. Your
video we just watched mentioned the Sustainable Development Goals, which
of course was backed by the United Nations.
Whenever you're creating global principles, I think you look
to norm setting organizations like the UN,
OECD, other governing

(08:36):
institutions, or multilateral institutions that we have around the world
to think through the set of
characteristics that are really applicable
to the global commons, if you will. And so
one of the things that happens going through the
process of creating those types of principles

(08:59):
is thinking about your situation, your
view, your values, versus the
values that are gonna work globally for
a population base that may
have little in common with yourself. So
one part, Andy, was kind of going through that

(09:21):
exercise and thinking about the impact that
companies have on individuals
around the world, people who will come in the future as
well, who may have nothing to do with capitalism or
the investing landscape and taking that kind of broad
overall view. So I think that was one change.

(09:45):
And I think another view
is around social
license to operate. All companies have
some adverse impact on the environment
and on certain aspects of society.
No company is just positives, that's for sure.

(10:08):
So, you know, really kind of thinking through the concepts
of net benefit.
Does the company create a net benefit to society
or is the company simply profiteering? So those were
things that kind of dealt with in creating the principles

(10:29):
that I think are additive to this discussion. I look
forward to digging deeper into that. Kristin, I know that
you've built portfolios with social justice and gender equity
as core themes. What was a moment that made you pivot
from traditional finance to purpose aligned investing?
Thanks, Andy. Hello everybody. It's great to be here.

(10:53):
I grew up in a trading firm where we did algorithmic trading,
high frequency, buy low, sell high, largely in
derivatives. And when we ended up selling
that business, there was time to step back and say what
is needed. And what I saw at that time was
that individual investors, endowment investors,

(11:16):
large institutional investors all really needed a way to engage in
public equities that was more meaningful,
more purposeful. We do get the economy that we invest
into. That sounds really obvious. And yet each one of us has a role
to play and so making it easier for
every investor of every size to be able to invest into the

(11:39):
economy. That will work for all of us. So I
started impact investing in 2007 and
then Nia Impact Capital evolved from that as a
way to support investors. So very similar
to what we've spoken about already is really just asking the
question what is needed for people in planet to

(12:01):
not only survive but to thrive together and
then what will the capital markets reward for?
And that's really what we do at Nia is we start with the end in
mind. We look for solutions, focused companies whose
revenues are coming from the very solutions to our greatest
global risks. And then we look for very well managed companies

(12:24):
where we weave in gender lens I for racial equity
and social justice as well when we're talking about human capital management.
Manel, your forthcoming book reframes ethics as
foundational to economics. How did the systems perspective
alter your approach to thinking about portfolio

(12:44):
design or asset allocation?
Well, I have to say that all sciences are grounded
in philosophy, but there's a few group of sciences,
the natural sciences, that we have
somehow a world hypothesis that grounds them.
But when it comes to the human world, I saw that what was missing was

(13:07):
human world hypothesis in order to ground the human
sciences. And the most fundamental of all was ethics. The same
as in the natural sciences was physics. And that's what
got all this started.
And John, I want to ask you, there has been some
pushback more recently on

(13:29):
ESG. Where do you think we stand
today? There definitely has been some pushback on
ESG. I think that the pushback actually predates
the change in government administration in the US
and is, I think largely
rooted in challenges that we

(13:53):
have with data. ESG data I think really
created an environment where
ESG investing was
subject to challenge. You mentioned greenwashing in the
intro. In addition to
weak data regarding a company's impact on

(14:16):
the environment, there's also data, you know, information
that companies provide or managers use that
overstates positives. So
I think the pushback, you know, was made possible
because of challenges in the
information that investors have available

(14:38):
to really understand a company's impact on the environment
or really broader impact.
I think that the industry, the investment
industry, I think the sustainability segment,
has been working hard to address those issues

(14:59):
and to attempt to strengthen the information set
that we have to work with so that investment
decisions can be viewed more
logically. It can be easier to understand
in terms of how that is changing
a portfolio's exposure to greenhouse gas,

(15:21):
emission risk or climate risk or social justice issues.
I think it's beginning to be addressed, but I think there's quite a bit of
work left to do. So those are some
initial comments on the ESG pushback. I
do think, Andy, that the
outcome is going to be a stronger

(15:44):
investment discipline, a stronger set of investment
strategies behind sustainable investing or
ESG investing. I think the data will be addressed,
the disciplines will be strengthened, and I think that
over the course of a fairly short period of time,
the industry will be strengthened, but certainly facing some pushback

(16:06):
today. Kristin, any thoughts?
So the pushback has been really interesting, I think in
that a couple years ago, no one really
knew what we did. This was very niche, it was over on the side.
And now that there is pushback, people are starting

(16:29):
to know what the letters ESG, Environment, Social, Government,
dei, Diversity, equity, Inclusion are and
they're starting to have opinions about that and starting to ask
questions. And so, you know, just as you mentioned, it is time for us to,
as an industry, make some further definitions. You know, for
us, we see this both as a way to measure risk

(16:53):
as far as what types of, in the
case of E, what types of risks could happen to
your company based on the rate of climate change or the weight
of extreme weather. It's also an
incredible way to look at opportunities as far as where our
industry and where our economy is going and where can we invest

(17:16):
for that transition. Similar with the S we're
seeing definitely pushback about
what does DEI mean? What are those programs mean? And yet
there's some pretty clear financial research showing that
diverse teams have stronger returns, are more
innovative, and can actually have better

(17:39):
governance as well. So it's an interesting time to be in
this. And I don't say that I welcome the pushback, though. I
welcome the dialogue and I welcome us all jumping in and really making
some commitments about what does this mean? What are the best business practices?
What are the best investments practices? And then, you know, as
we mentioned earlier, there's greenwashing too, so and pink washing.

(18:02):
And how can we be really attuned and really
get onto the same page about what we mean when we're talking about these terms?
Let's go to segment two. We're going to talk about investment
decision making. Investors assess companies through
environmental, social and governance criteria to determine financial
risks and ethical standards. Strong ESG performance

(18:26):
can attract investors, improve access to capital and
lower borrowing costs. Environmental factors focus on carbon
emissions, renewable energy use and resource management.
Companies are expected to disclose emissions data and adopt
sustainable practices. Social factors examine labor standards
Human rights and workplace diversity. Ethical supply chains and

(18:48):
fair labor practices influence a company's reputation and long
term success. Governance factors cover board structure, executive
pay and transparency. Strong governance ensures accountability and
ethical leadership. ESG scores provided by agencies like
MSCI and sustainalytics help investors assess corporate
responsibility. However, standardizing ESG data

(19:11):
remains a challenge. To avoid greenwashing, investors should
review ESG reports, assess measurable actions and
verify claims against third party audits before making
decisions.
John, you mentioned data and a little bit of how

(19:34):
things are evolving. Can you share maybe a
story where including ESG data uncovered
unseen risk or opportunity the traditional analysis would
have missed? Sure. And just the video clip that we
just saw I think was great because it
presented the factors behind

(19:55):
ESG in the business context.
And of course, as you listen to it, as
an investor, these are the things that you want to understand
about any company that you would invest in. What is there
ability to manage their impact on the environment?
What is their ability to create a great workplace for

(20:18):
men and women and people of all backgrounds? And
what is the governance structure the company has? So, you know, first
and foremost we should realize that
these are pieces of information that we all want as
investors. So including this information
broadly should result in a much better

(20:39):
understanding of the company.
Now, what you just asked is can we give an
example of when including an ESG risk
is helpful or useful? There are
many situations where the

(21:00):
ESG information comes out as a risk factor.
And understanding that a company has a high
exposure to a risk area and is either doing a
good job managing that or a poor job managing it
is sort of the basics of fundamental research and
fundamental investment management. What's my risk exposure and

(21:23):
how is this company set up to manage the risk?
An area that's been in the news lately is healthcare
sector managed healthcare. And
certainly we would see, you know, a company like
UnitedHealth as a company that, you know, has a
set of governance risks, that has a set of,

(21:46):
you know, sort of ethical risks in terms of how they interact with
the Medicare and Medicaid systems. And so, you
know, that's an example of a company that scored poorly
on very specific ESG risks
and subsequently the stock did not do
well. I'm sure we can find examples where it went the other way. Just

(22:08):
full disclosure and no magic bullet here,
but just kind of broadening the aperture from strictly
environmental or moral issues to
just opening it up to your corporate risk
that kind of fits into these buckets and how
making clear how important it is to kind of understand

(22:30):
risk across the spectrum, how much has the company taken
on and how good are they at managing? It is kind of the essential
concept, I think, behind ESG management,
and there are many examples. I just picked UnitedHealthcare because it's been
in the news and it's had a pretty dramatic stock move recently.
Indeed it has. Kristin, as an institutional

(22:54):
manager, what ESG red flags
do you look for and what can we learn
as retail investors in. In identifying.
When reviewing a corporate annual
report, for example? Sure. Well,
so we do all of the letters, I would say,

(23:17):
and we start with our six solution themes. So we are looking from an
ESG perspective. How is a company baked? What are
their revenues and are they derived from one or more of our
Nia 6 solution themes? And those are highly aligned with the
UN Sustainable Development Goals. So we're looking at risk
from the very beginning about how a company is baked, what

(23:39):
are its revenue sources, what is its business model?
Then we're going to governance and we're looking to see is the
governance diverse, is it qualified and are
there any risk areas and are these basically the right people
to get this job done? You know, are they going to get these products and
services to market and are there any brand risks

(24:01):
that could be associated along the way? So we're looking both at risks
and at opportunities throughout the process.
Manel, as a systems thinker, how do you see ESG
criteria fitting into this broader ethical
architecture? And do you think there are things missing from the

(24:23):
framework? Well, I think there's
something fundamental which is where
ethics comes to the picture in the sense that
we should be measuring the realization of
values and the reinforcement of counter values. We
talk about risks. I suppose the counter values are included

(24:45):
in risks and opportunities. I see
them related to the economy in terms of creating
economic value. But what's missing is that
we use purpose in both the positive
way, but it's also related to the negative because written
values and counter values are realized through

(25:08):
purposes. So I see that there's a tendency to
use purpose in the positive. And we don't realize that all
systems, all human systems realize a
purpose. And that purpose can be a purpose because it reinforces
counter values, or it can be a good purpose because it realizes
values. And I see nothing of that in all the frameworks.

(25:32):
The idea of creating value for good,
how do we measure that?
Let me jump in. I propose in a book,
in the book Universal Morality Hypothesis,
it's not my values, I think the values shared by

(25:54):
peoples and by civilizations. And
it's something that we can inquire and we can think
about what are those values. But if we look at the whole history of moral
philosophy, there's some of them that are quite apparent. And all the
philosophers, and I would say in all the different regions
of the world, have a common consensus.

(26:16):
So it's easy to start identifying what are those
universal values. But we have to find a
framework in which we are not missing and we don't have any
loopholes and we have to fit them in. But a good way to
fill all those holes is by looking at the counter values, because all the moral
philosophers agree, which are those counter values. And since counterval

(26:39):
is related to values, we can figure out the values afterwards.
And John, how can you incorporate some of the
ESG measures?
How can you apply that to valuation and risk management?
Yeah, and I do want to be clear that I think what

(27:01):
Manel is working on is really fascinating and important in
the concept of
building a stronger capital
market, if you will, that explicitly
values positive impact on society broadly or the
environment broadly, is something that I think many of us

(27:25):
aspire to. So I think that's a great,
great body of work in terms of
incorporating these concepts into ESG
investing or just into
kind of general portfolio management. I think there's a couple
of lines of thought to introduce here, one of

(27:48):
which is just the strict business line of thought. In other words,
let's run with Manel's point, which is there's
a set of values, there's a set of
positive characteristics that society wants, broadly.
Improving human well being, improving equitable
distribution of goods and services, et cetera. That, let's assume

(28:11):
that that's there. Theoretically,
companies that do a good job at
advancing those values should in
fact be more popular companies. We should want to buy more
product from them, we should feel
more favorably towards them, and we should assign a higher value

(28:34):
to them. Manel, stop me if I'm off track here, but I think
that would be consistent with your thinking.
And so I think there's an element to that that already
exists. A company's reputation, its
brand, the quality of its products,

(28:55):
the news flow from the company,
that all adds up and does have an impact
on the value of the company and its overall
performance has an impact in terms of who wants to go
work there, right? Who wants to be affiliated with it or
associated with it. The question of how do you take

(29:18):
those ideas and get to a data set that you
can actually use to
differentiate one company from another, you know,
on these fairly granular points is really where the challenge
comes in. And the traditional ESG data,
carbon emissions, et cetera, et cetera, don't

(29:40):
necessarily equate to the things that I just talked
about. The typical consumer
doesn't know what the carbon emissions of a particular company may or
may not be. It's fairly arcane.
So understanding kind of the overall mosaic of risks
and activities that the company is involved in from a

(30:04):
credible point of view so that we can have
a standardized set of information to work with
that's well distributed, all investors are seeing it. That's
an important step for this entire discipline
to take. We have clients on one hand and they want
to invest with their values. They also want to perform

(30:27):
and beat the market. And, you know, we're all working to serve
them and we're all looking for the information set that
will properly inform us on it if we have time. Andy, I'll
talk a little bit about kind of using, you know,
the, the information that exists that companies provide
to do that. But I do want to acknowledge that, you know,

(30:50):
that set of information which I think would be
important to serving, you know, Manel's concepts
and are also very, very important to serving the needs
of the great clients that we have who are mission
oriented, kind of values oriented investor, it's sort
of one and the same. And

(31:12):
the challenge is, you know, getting the right data that can be
appropriately incorporated into,
you know, investment decisions. Kristin
or Manel want to add to that? Yeah, no, I completely agree.
You got the point. I think there's a radical step to make,
which is by realizing values, by definition, you

(31:34):
counteract counter values. So instead of screening out things,
we should be focusing on realizing values because we
are already countering the, the counter
values. And I think the frameworks are very
ambivalent. You either look for something good or you
avoid something bad. But I think by pursuing a good

(31:57):
purpose that realizes value, you're already leaving behind all the other. And
I think the concepts have to be
rather ambivilent, then they have to be reciprocal.
I would just jump in to say that it's. I think many of us do
want to invest with our values and

(32:19):
others want to invest prudently for the best return.
What is a fair return and how, which of these are
material when it comes to values?
Sometimes we're talking about best practices in human capital management.
And you know, to an earlier point, who wants to work
at these companies? So attracting, being able to hire, retain and

(32:43):
promote top talent, that could be a value, though. It's
really a smart business practice. And so how do we make a brand
a company both palatable on
the consumer side so that products and services fly off the
shelves, and then also a company that people really want to work for
and be associated with. And some of that is values and some of it's really

(33:05):
material management of the S and the G and the
E fits right in there as well.
Thank you. For that context, it's a good segue into
segment three. Investors often question whether ESG
focused portfolios sacrifice profitability. Research shows
that ESG funds generally perform on par with or in some

(33:28):
cases outperform traditional investments. Over the long term,
strong ESG practices practices contribute to risk mitigation by
reducing exposure to regulatory penalties, reputational
damage and operational disruptions. During economic
downturns, companies with sound ESG frameworks tend to be
more resilient due to strong governance and sustainable business models.

(33:51):
Studies indicate that ESG factors can serve as indicators of financial
stability and long term value. However, investors must
assess ESG data critically as rating inconsistencies and
greenwashing present challenges. Impact investments in areas
like renewable energy and sustainable agriculture demonstrate
that financial returns and social outcomes are not mutually

(34:12):
exclusive. Diversification, clear impact goals
and access to reliable ESG analysis help investors
integrate sustainability into asset allocation without
compromising profitability.
Kristin, talk about the performance versus the

(34:35):
values and maybe how do you evaluate risk adjusted
performance at Nia? Sure. So that is
the question of our times, right? Is what are we going to invest
in at what rate of return and at what risk?
And so I'll just call into question
the way our investment economy is organized at this time because

(34:58):
largely developed in the 60s,
really popularized in the 70s and 80s is index investing.
And so choosing companies based on a criteria like
size or domicile like The S&P 500
is largely our largest US based companies.

(35:19):
So that was an interesting kind of
outcoming from what was called, is still called to this day, modern
portfolio theory. Yet it was developed over 50 years ago
and that theory did not take into account that
we live on a planet with finite resources. I think that the men that
developed that at the time were really thinking that we had infinite

(35:41):
resources so we could have infinite returns. And our world, really
the worldview is much different now. So which are those
companies that we can invest in that are actually solving for some of these
risks and really bringing us to the next just
and sustainable economy while making
financial returns for investors and all stakeholders along the way?

(36:04):
So that's really one of the ways we assess risk is really starting from the
beginning is what are our largest global systemic risks,
such as the climate crisis, healthcare
crisis, education. One of the things that we look at
at Nia is actually wealth inequality. So we're looking at
CEO pay versus worker pay. We're looking at

(36:25):
what is a fair and living wage. We're also looking at access and
timely access to healthcare for every gender across
every state. So some of these are systemic risks
that companies can actually solve for. And so we want to be invested into those
companies that are actually solving for those risks.
John, when it comes to mindful investing, can you talk about

(36:49):
active strategies versus
passive indexes? Yeah, and I think, I think
Kristin makes a point that, you know, indexes aren't necessarily
perfect, and I agree
with that. They're rules based

(37:10):
and they may include companies that aren't attractive
investments because of the way the rules set up.
So generally speaking, in an
index, an investor is going to own an entire
chunk of a market. Good companies, bad companies,
everything in between. Whereas with

(37:33):
active strategies, research
has been applied to attempt to select the companies
that are the better companies. Certainly from a
return perspective, our entire industry is focused on trying
to figure out which companies in the index are going to be the better
performers. On this chat, we're really

(37:55):
discussing about the relationship between how the
company impacts society and the environment,
as well as the return
potential of the company. What's the relationship there and
how would you use that information to
select a better basket of stocks for your client

(38:17):
or yourself than what you can get out of an index?
I want to introduce an important point here which is
of the risks that we're talking about. Risks to
the environment, risks to social justice,
risks to equality, et cetera. How do we understand

(38:37):
which ones actually matter to a specific company?
I think we all care about these things. Most people care about these
things. The question is of these
issues, which ones matter to which companies,
how much, and where can we get the data? It's
interesting. Companies, you know, have always been required or since

(39:00):
the 1930s, have been required to provide
disclosure about the material risks that the
companies face. And they do that in
generally narrative form. And there are,
you know, hundreds of pages
in annual reports in addition to the

(39:22):
financial tables, which are really well organized in something that looks
like an Excel spreadsheet. Right? Then there's this entire
narrative risk discussion, which is text
and the company has been required to
disclose and discuss its material risks. That's a
treasure trove of information, I would say, in terms of

(39:45):
understanding the risks that the company has
decided it must disclose to investors based
on the regulatory format and most ESG risks are
included in there. So in terms of how do
we take the concept of we want to
own the right companies that are doing better things,

(40:07):
managing risks better, how do we solve that challenge?
I think the first place to go is through a
comprehensive understanding of the risks that the companies
have acknowledged and described in their
legal and regulatory materials.
That's a great way, I think, to also

(40:30):
hopefully avoid greenwashing
and deal with the overall data issue so we can
work with a set of data that we have confidence
in that hopefully is spot on
in terms of the issues that our clients are trying to grapple with.

(40:51):
Manel, your work reframes good investments
and I'm wondering if we're looking at an investment
redefined as valuable because of its ethical impact.
Can we measure that on a quantitative or qualitative
basis? Well,

(41:12):
you can measure anything you can realize. So
something that's lacking, obviously if it's not there, you could
also measure it. Counter value is already telling you that
there's something measuring that needs to be measured because something is
lacking and something that could be realized. So
since they are paired together, even if you can't

(41:34):
deduce one from the other, because the more fundamental is the value
you could measure if something is lacking very easily.
So I would say yes. And another thing I wanted to add is that values
and counter values are all related. So most of the
counter values are feeding some other counter
values. So you could start with one and

(41:56):
start finding the others. So that's also very important
because sometimes we are one sided and we just focus on one specific
issue and sometimes we think we're doing good, but that
bias is leaving the whole
framework out. So I think we need a comprehensive framework and
start filling in all the gaps and getting all

(42:19):
that data because it's the. And just a question
for the panel, one of our previous guests, Charlie Bressler,
when he was on and talking about
his investment philosophy, he was actually deemphasizing
the importance of performance because he felt like, well, if he earmarks
part of his portfolio, he just wants to do good.

(42:42):
He's not worried about the performance
metrics. Do you think that mindful
investing sacrifices profitability?
I can jump in here. So mindful
investing doesn't need to sacrifice profits

(43:02):
in any way. Mindful really just means
conscious. And so being conscious of where your money is so that we
are able to know what we own and then ideally be really
proud of what we own. And yet if you have
and an idea that you want a
certain theory of change, then you're going to want

(43:25):
that business to actually do what it does into perpetuity or,
or at least so that it grows big so that that change
happens. Right. So you want those revenues. If the revenues are
being defined or derived from purpose or
mindful or whatever the investor wants to
exist, then you're going to want, we as investors want

(43:48):
to see a really strong governance and really strong
talent being able to attract and retain top talent. And
then possibly if this company is
providing some of the best jobs with some of the best
resources, you know, health care benefits,

(44:08):
really positive, fulfilling jobs, then you're going to
want that company pretty provide more of those jobs.
And so you're going to want that company to do well. And if that company's
doing well, it's going to put off a profit. You know, so yes,
you could just invest in something that feels
values based. And yet just like you're giving money to a nonprofit,

(44:30):
you want to make sure that they're organized and doing the job right.
So that's how we see it from the Nia side.
Thank you. I don't know if anybody else wants to chime in.
Can I jump in? Absolutely. I would say that
creating economic value is intrinsically linked

(44:51):
to values in the sense that if you don't make a profit, you won't
be able to realize values. I mean, if you stop operating
because you can pay for
jobs or you can't really pay for the
supplies, then you're stopping your activity and your purpose is not
realizing values. So I think that's very important. Not to think

(45:13):
as a trade off as like, if I want to make
money, therefore I'm going to
risk society because I think
the money is a consequence or the profit is a
consequence of purpose. And that's very important.

(45:36):
Thank you. Let's move on to segment four.
Greenwashing occurs when companies exaggerate or misrepresent
their sustainability efforts. Common tactics include vague
claims, selective reporting and marketing that focuses on
minor improvements while ignoring broader negative impacts.
Investors can identify these issues by seeking third party party

(45:59):
certifications, reviewing independent reports and
analyzing a company's full operational history.
ESG data can be inconsistent due to varying methodologies in
selective disclosure. Without standardized reporting, companies may
present only favorable metrics to verify impact reports.
Investors should assess transparency, look for measurable commitments

(46:21):
and cross reference multiple sources. Regulatory bodies and
industry organizations. Organizations are introducing stricter ESG disclosure
requirements to improve accountability. Certifications and
independent audits help establish credibility. Investors should
approach claims with scrutiny, compare rating systems and use
investigative research to ensure they are supporting companies that align with

(46:43):
ethical and sustainable practices.
Manel, you warn against superficial ethics. Have
you come across egregious examples of greenwashing in your
research? Well, it's full of it.
I mean, all these claims that doing

(47:06):
good by doing well, like making
someone rich and being positive to the,
to the world. I think greed is somehow seen
as, as something if it's legitimate, if you've
earned it, you've done it legally, it's good. So there's, you
don't have to be ashamed of it. And, and so it's

(47:28):
somehow that we don't question that. It's like we have the
triple bottom line and we think, oh, we have to do good and also make
a lot of money for our investors. And, and
that's something legitimate. I don't think that
we have to accept something that's a counter value as a
value. And making a profit is not necessarily being

(47:51):
greedy, but there's ways to make a profit and
those ways can improve the world, and those are the
legitimate ways. So money is not actually the issue.
The issue is like sacrificing everything
for the sake of making money and destroying our world
by doing that. So I think that's a

(48:14):
claim that we always say, well, we have to make money and that's
good. Well, I don't know. I think money is a consequence of doing
something good, but it's not good
in itself. John,
how do you evaluate a company's credibility on its claims?
Well, the video clip you played was great because

(48:36):
it really said take all of the sustainability information
that the company is providing with a grain of salt. You know,
verify it, challenge it, and be careful when you compare
one company to another because they might not be comparable. And
that's a big difference between the data

(48:58):
or the information that a company voluntarily provides
and may provide in a marketing sense versus what a company
files with its primary regulator in the
US that's the SEC (US Securities and Exchange Commission.)
So I tend to rely on information
in the Amherst product area that companies have filed

(49:21):
with their regulators under Reg SK in the US
and using the IFRS standards outside of the US
and there's a massive amount of that information.
It needs to be structured, analyzed in order for it to
be useful. But once that's done, you can

(49:41):
have a fairly strong picture of the company's
risk profile and then that information
can be tested to understand its impact on
firm value. Essentially how is the market
valuing the company's management of
or exposure to a specific risk. And the

(50:04):
company has provided us with that information. So I think that's
important and in terms of I want to connect it to Manel's some
of his comments because the market does
place a value on these things. The trick
is understanding what that value is.
Where has the market gone to get the information?

(50:27):
And they've either assigned zero value to it, they've
penalized a company to it, or they paid a premium
for a company because of it. I think
that's really what's necessary today. I think
to really adequately serve a mission

(50:48):
oriented investor is a
very strong data set that we can look to
and explain. Here are the
specific risks and here is the impact on that
company's value. The market likes this risk,
the market doesn't like this risk. The market assigns

(51:10):
no value to this risk. I think that's critical
and I think for our clients, who I think are some of the best
clients in the world who want to align the portfolio
with their mission or values, it's very, very important to
kind of walk through that and do that very carefully. And that
may necessitate a discussion. It's possible

(51:32):
that the market isn't as concerned about
greenhouse gas emissions as my client
is. We need to have that discussion so that
we're doing the right thing that are we going to
actually penalize a company for something the market
is paying for so that we can at least do

(51:54):
this with total awareness?
Kristin, how does Nia define and detect
greenwashing beyond surface level ESG claims?
Yeah, it's such a good question. So when I started building these
portfolios in Public equities in 2012, one of the
criteria we had at that time was that somewhere on the website

(52:16):
and in the marketing materials we wanted to see a nod to sustainability.
And that was one of our criteria. Now that would
be impossible because literally every website, if you look
on it, is green, you know, with plants and with colors and
it has DEI photos on it.

(52:36):
So that's just kind of the style of the website now and it's the style
of the materials is to make it look sustainable. So
we really do emphasize the revenues. Where are the revenues
coming from? How is this business baked?
And across our six solution themes, that's how we tell
really where you know what, what's happening.

(52:59):
And then of course we dig into materials. We do seek to engage
with every company. So we're asking them, all of our companies to report
on their scope, 1, 2 and 3 emissions, all of their
carbon data. We're also asking them to spend, set
carbon neutral deadlines and target zones
and then we're asking them specifically for their plans. And so the

(53:22):
proof is really in the pudding is where are their
carbon numbers now, where are they looking at,
particularly in Scope three, where that has to do with
basically their value chain, what's upstream of them, where are they
getting their parts, are they coming from getting shipped, are they

(53:42):
getting shipped in single use plastics?
All sorts of questions about doing kind of that internal audit and
asking them to progress. And in that work with our companies,
we're really able to see which ones are dedicated
to this and which ones we're here for the window washing.
Thank you. We're going to bring it home and go to Segment five.

(54:07):
Financial institutions are integrating ESG factors into investment
strategies, responding to regulatory shifts and investor demand.
ESG focused funds are expanding and AI driven
analysis is enhancing data accuracy for risk assessment and
opportunity identification. Blockchain technology is improving
transparency in impact reporting by tracking supply chains

(54:30):
and verifying ESG claims. Regenerative
finance is gaining traction, emphasizing nature based solutions like
reforestation and sustainable agriculture. Unlike traditional
ESG investing, ReFi prioritizes restoring ecosystems
while generating financial returns. Governments are advancing
policies to standardize ESG disclosures and

(54:51):
incentivize sustainable investments through tax benefits and
subsidies, mandatory reporting requirements. Investments are shaping
corporate accountability. Key investment areas include renewable
energy, sustainable agriculture and biodiversity credits.
Staying informed on evolving regulations, fintech advancements and
impact measurement tools will be crucial for investors positioning

(55:14):
themselves in the future of mindful investing.
Kristin, how do you see gender and racial lens investing
evolving in the next five years? Will they become mainstream or remain
niche? So Andy, that's such a good question

(55:34):
because with the pushback to DEI, companies are
largely we're seeing where they stand. We're
seeing where they stand about Are they going to
prioritize diversity and leadership? Are they going to prioritize
a healthy, active and inclusive workforce? That's one
way that a gender lens shows up, I would say, certainly

(55:57):
with the wealth transfer that's currently ongoing,
where the large amount of investable assets
are being transferred in our lifetime,
right now, in the next 10 years, largely to women investors. And
our hope would be that the industry also shifts with that so
that women are in the driver's seat of their own investments

(56:19):
where it would be a natural thing to ask.
And this actually I think the smart men are already onto this as
far as wanting to see a diverse executive
leadership team and a diverse board because
they're making better decisions and making stronger ROI (Return on Investment), more
innovation, et cetera. So where is a gender lens

(56:42):
about values and where is it about really material issues
within a company? I think that's going to be really important. And then when we're
looking at products and services that are beneficial to women, that's
actually a really nice lens for investors to use of all genders,
because generally those products that are beneficial to
women are beneficial to society at large. And

(57:04):
so there could be a greater TAM (total addressable market), a total addressable market when
we use that gender lens. So that's been a really interesting way
for us to capitalize, literally
capitalize on opportunities as well as reduce risks.
One way that that shows up has been interesting in the tariff wars
because we do have that

(57:25):
requirement for all of the companies we invest in, that they do have
diversity and leadership on the executive team and the board.
That largely keeps us out of China, where that isn't
a common practice. And so when there are
tariffs this high this week and maybe not next week, and maybe it's going to
be different that week, we have stayed a little bit out of that

(57:48):
volatility has been really nice. So using the gender lens can
be advantageous to all investors. Very
interesting insight. Well, I will. Thank you. In case you have to drop
off. Manel, I love that you talked
about just values driving the investment
decisions and the company's decisions that you

(58:10):
can't, you can't just make a profit
at any cost. If you're doing that while destroying the
environment, there's going to be a cost and it's not going to be
sustainable. What
philosophical paradigm shifts are needed to
transition from sustainability to regeneration?

(58:35):
Well, I would call it we have to shift from an
extractive economy which withdraws all the resources
towards purposes that reinforce counter values, to an
ethical economy in which the resources are directed
towards caring about others. Because at the end of the day, ethics is our caring
about others. And that shift has to come from realizing

(58:58):
ethics. It's not like a moral imperative
or like an obligation, but it's something out of the heart. So it's something
that you do it out of love and
not out of a duty, moral duty,
as, as a norm, as a rule, because it's, it's something that
you do and, and you appreciate doing it. So it's not

(59:21):
something that you sacrifice, it's what drives you. So
values, at the end of the day, come out of, of the care for
others. And I think that's what should, should be
reported. Because when you are seeing counter values,
you're seeing the opposite. You're seeing that it's otherwise. It's like
hate, indifference, pity towards others.

(59:43):
And I'm trying to brainwash.
I can say directly about trying to say,
look, I do so much on one side, but then I do this. So
I'm a good person and I feel great because I'm
greedy. But on weekends I do something
philanthropic or every year I do something

(01:00:06):
volunteering. And I think that's what we should stop
thinking because ethic is something we do every single day.
And purpose is not something we do on an occasion or
something we do out of generosity. No, it's
something we do from the minute we wake up every day.
John, what do you think? Can we lead with love?

(01:00:28):
I don't know about leading with love in particular, but
I do think that the concept of
business ethics and
kind of factoring in the overall needs of society
and the planet are what we were

(01:00:48):
getting towards with things like the Sustainable Development Goals.
It's kind of at the heart of sustainable or ESG investing.
And I think one of the points that's come out
in this session is how important it is to do that
in a way that works within our existing

(01:01:10):
financial system. And I think
Manel made that point nicely because the company
still has to be in business. It has to compete for capital,
it has to put money to work efficiently and effectively.
And so this is an incredibly important topic

(01:01:30):
because it gets
at the quality of life for the entire planet.
Companies have an impact on well being
for people that never buy their products, that live in different
countries, etc. And so kind of bringing that
element into firm valuation

(01:01:54):
and security values. I think it is happening.
Being able to analyze it and understand it is
an important step. So you know, Andy, I would say
that some of this is being done.
You know, the market doesn't place zero value on
ethics or, you know, negative value on high moral

(01:02:16):
standards. Being able to understand how
the market is doing that and being able to then
use that information to create the right
portfolio for a mission aligned investor
is really critical. And I think that science, that data
set that is advancing and despite

(01:02:39):
the current ESG pushback, companies are
continuing to advance these
disciplines. So I think one of the great things that's happening
is that corporations are actually continuing to make progress
in terms of improving their operations, reducing their
adverse impacts and really trying to build

(01:03:02):
a better future because they understand there's a connection
between value and values
and they understand they have to have the purpose that Maniel has talked
about. So thank you.
Thank you. Just a call out to the
inspired money maker audience out there. We did

(01:03:25):
have Andrew Behar on a previous
episode, CEO of As You Sow. So look up that
episode I'll put that in the show notes. Excellent resource for being
able to screen different mutual funds and investment
choices, including those in your
401k. Last question for you, John.

(01:03:46):
I know that you do
use data science. How do you
see AI and big data improving ESG risk
detection? Well, I think very, very,
in very, very important ways. So, you know, as I've mentioned,
companies produce a lot of information through their regulatory filings.

(01:04:09):
You know, we were talking about greenwashing earlier where the company
is advertising or they're creating some marketing oriented
report. There's a different set of information that's in the court
system. There's a different set of information that's in regulatory
documents which is, you know, very, very important to
get through. But it's, it's thousands of pages, it's dense,

(01:04:31):
it's not structured. AI in data science and machine
learning can assist
domain experts in processing all that
information and really being able to
use that information to understand the risk
mosaic that a company really is. So

(01:04:53):
Andy, I think AI used properly, data
science used properly
definitely is a critical tool
for this work. And as we all know, AI
is achieving new milestones literally every day.
Two or three years ago it was less useful of a tool.

(01:05:15):
It's become a useful tool. It's going to become a more useful
tool as we develop additional capability. So
I think in a big way and I think that that combined with
domain expertise will solve some of these challenges,
create greater transparency. One of the things that we really
seek is transparency. If we

(01:05:38):
could really understand the company's motivations,
its impacts, its exposures, it'd be easier for
people to parse value and make these decisions.
AI and data science, you know, create the
tools to take significant steps towards creating that
transparency. And Manel, your upcoming book, you

(01:06:01):
frame ethics as core. How do you see blockchain AI and other
tech? Is it supporting or threatening that vision?
I think all technology can be useful, as I say, purpose
driven things. I mean if you
use the technology in the right way, there's no problem. The problem is when you

(01:06:22):
want to reinforce something through technology counter value.
So I think we should be very careful about that because technology
can be used in the good way, in the bad way, so it's
morally neutral. I would say it's like purpose. It depends what
it does. You can. I think I should stress
because maybe I haven't said what I mean by purpose, but purpose is

(01:06:45):
what a company does for others on a regular basis
and what you do for us on a regular basis can harm or it can
do good to the world. And technology can be used for
both things. So I think we should be careful not to use the technology
for the wrong purpose. Well,
we're going to leave it there. I want to thank our panelists and

(01:07:08):
our audience for that insightful conversation.
One of my favorite takeaways is that but this idea of mindful
investing, it really marries a like
philosophical approach to
the real world. And I love that John talked about
we have to implement this within the framework

(01:07:30):
of the existing financial markets. So I love that
you know this. You're marrying like
idealism with what we have and
always try to make our best effort. And I see that every investment
we make can be a vote for the future that we want to see,
whether it's in public markets, private equity or community based

(01:07:53):
initiatives. Your capital does have power and
mindful investing means using that power with clarity
in intention. Inspired Money Maker if
there's one thing you can do this week, I want you to
focus and just pick one thing, because positive change requires action.
Take a look at just one investment that you hold and ask yourself,

(01:08:15):
does this align with my values? Dig into it. Look
beyond the ticker symbol. Who's leading the company? What do they stand
for? What's their environmental and social footprint?
That one moment of curiosity might just spark a broader shift
in how you view and shape your portfolio. If you found this episode
helpful, please share it with a friend. Leave us a review and let

(01:08:38):
us know what mindful investing means to you. Your voice adds
to the momentum of this movement. If you
if you if you're on LinkedIn, follow me at "Advisor
Andy." Inspired Money is created and produced by me, Bradley
Jon Eaglefeather. Bradley is behind the scenes doing
the live stream and he edited these segments. Chad

(01:09:00):
Lawrence does our graphics, animations and editing. Before
we part ways, I want to give a big shout out to our amazing guests.
If you found value in today's episode, go follow their work and
keep learning from the best. John Streur. You
can follow John his ongoing work at Boston Common Asset
Management, where he leads AMRIS Strategies focused

(01:09:23):
on integrating material ESG risks and opportunities
into investment decisions. Thank
you. Manel Patel-Wilson, Ph.D..
Keep your eye out for his forthcoming book the Ethics of Human
Creating Economic Value with Impact for Good, which
releases August and it's a real

(01:09:45):
fresh systems based look at how ethics and economics
must evolve together. You can find more of his academic
work at Research Gate. And Finally,
Kristin Hull, Ph.D.. You can
you can follow Kristin's work at the intersection of finance and
justice at

(01:10:08):
niaimpactcapital.com. Kristin and her team are leading the way in gender lens
investing. And if you're looking for an investment approach that aligns
with your values, Nia is a great place to start.
If something sparked your interest today, I encourage you to follow our guests
and check out their organizations. Dive deeper into their work.
Thank you both of you, and thanks for tuning in. Inspired Money

(01:10:31):
Maker Remember your money has power. Use it mindfully.
Inspired Money returns next week on Wednesday, July 16th
at 1:00pm Our topic will be Retirement, Wellness and Financial

Planning (01:10:42):
Nurturing Wholeness in Life's New Phase.
I'll see you then. Until next time, do something that scares you,
because that's where the magic happens. Thank you everybody.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Mindful Investing: Integrating Values and Impact in Investment Decisions