Retirement Income Strategies: Maximizing Returns for Peace of Mind

Episode Transcript
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(00:50):
Aloha. Welcome. Inspired money maker. Thanks for tuning
in. If this is your first time here, welcome. If you're returning.
Welcome back. This is episode 77 of our
100 episode series. I can't believe how
quickly this has all gone by. We're three quarters of the way through.
I'm not sure what happens when we hit episode 100. Something

(01:13):
big and special. I'll just leave it there.
You've worked hard your entire life, diligently saving, checking
the boxes, 401k, IRA, maybe even
a pension. Then one day the paycheck stop.
Suddenly you're not managing money, you're

(01:33):
depending on it. As a financial advisor, I've seen the moment.
It really hits people. This is it. My savings have to last
me the rest of my life. Retirement should be a time of
freedom, not fear. But between market swings, inflation,
longer lifespans, shifting political landscapes, it's
no wonder so many people feel uncertain. That's why

(01:55):
today's conversation is so important. We're going beyond the
usual advice and diving into smart, flexible strategies for
turning your nest egg into a steady, reliable income. Because
peace of mind in retirement isn't just about having money.
It's about knowing what to do with it. Stay with us. You're about to
hear from some of the most trusted voices in retirement

(02:17):
planning. Before we dive in, I want to thank today's sponsor.
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(04:09):
affiliate link. If you make a purchase, I may earn a commission
at no extra cost to you. It helps to support Inspired
Money. Now, before we get into retirement income
strategies, I want to introduce you to the incredible panel of
experts joining us. These are the voices you want to hear from,
whether you're decades from retirement or right on the cusp of it.

(04:33):
First we have Jamie Hopkins. Jamie is Chief Wealth Officer at
WSFS bank and CEO of Bryn Mawr
Capital Management where he leads strategic growth across their wealth
businesses. He's also the Founder and President of Finserve
Foundation, a nonprofit focused on developing the next
generation of financial professionals. With a background in law,

(04:54):
finance and education, and years spent shaping thought
leadership and retirement planning, Jamie brings a powerful
blend of real world expertise and visionary insight
to today's conversation. Jamie, welcome back. Yeah, it's
good to see you again Andy. Thanks for having me on here today. So
yeah, it's exciting to see everybody. A lot of great people today. I'm

(05:17):
glad that you're here and you're powered up like eating power bars and drinking
Celsius. I suspect you'll be speaking fast.
Hopefully. Yeah. Next we're joined by
Dana Anspach, CFP®, RMA®. Dana is
the Founder and CEO of Sensible Money. She has
made it her life's work to help people build sustainable income

(05:39):
plans for retirement. She's the author of "Control Your Retirement
Destiny" and "Social Security Sesse," two must reads
if you want to turn your savings into income that lasts. Dana
brings a boots on the ground perspective informed
by years of hands on experience with real clients. And
I know that she also loves to ride motorcycles.

(06:03):
I do love to ride motorcycles, but I'm often ashamed
to say that I turned 54 this year, sold my Harley (Harley-Davidson Motorcycles)
and took up pickleball. I don't know if this is a sign of the
times, but this is what happens as we age.
That sign of the times. Do you still get the adrenaline rush on the
pickleball court? It's not quite the same. I do enjoy it,

(06:27):
but it's not quite the same as being out there with the wind in your
face, riding. Down the road I've got to try
some pickleball some more pickleball. I barely know how
to keep score, but I'm learning. Joining us
as well is Kerry Hannon, a nationally recognized
workplace futurist and personal finance expert. For over three

(06:49):
decades, Kerry has helped Americans, especially Gen X and
midlife professionals, navigate career transitions,
entrepreneurship and retirement with confidence. She's

the author of 14 books and her newest, "Retire Bytes (06:59):
A
Gen X Guide to Securing Your Financial Future" is now available
for pre-order. If you want financial strategies with a
dose of real life wisdom, Kerry always delivers. Kerry,
welcome. It's great to be here. Andy, thanks so much for
inviting me. I'm honored. And it's just what a great panel you put together.

(07:23):
I'm excited. And rounding out our panel, we've got Roger
Whitney. I have not counted, Roger, how many times
you've been on Inspired Money, but you're, you're up there.
You might be leading good or bad, I don't know.
Time will tell. We'll see what happens by episode 100.

(07:44):
Roger is better known as the retirement answer man.
With over 27 years as a Certified Financial
Planner, Roger is the author of "Rock Retirement" and
the creator of the Rock Retirement Club. His podcast has
over 8 million downloads and for good reason. Roger is
a master at helping people turn anxiety about retirement into

(08:06):
actionable plans. And he has a real gift for making the
complex feel approachable, always fun and
entertaining. I always like watching your YouTube channel, Roger.
Well, I also want to say, just to start off, I am a little disappointed
in Dana.
Exactly. I like two wheeled vehicles. I ride a mountain

(08:29):
bike and I'm here in Colorado at the moment and I'm not going to turn
it in. I understand the risks, but the, the wind in my hair
is just so awesome. You know, it's truthfully not about
risk. It's around time and energy. So you only have so
much of that. And I had to really think about, you know, how many
hobbies at a time can I have? And that was

(08:51):
one that I needed to back burner. I may pick it back up. It wasn't
a forever decision. So for me it was less about risk and more
really. Okay, I feel better about that then that I. Okay, okay. Good, good.
Roger, you got to slow down. You're riding too fast. You've lost your hair.
So with this kind of lineup, I don't know, we've got the

(09:14):
humor and retirement. A serious conversation.
You are in for an informative, inspiring conversation.
Let's get right into it with segment. One, the traditional
three legged stool of Retirement, Social Security, pensions
and personal savings has evolved with longer
lifespans and market volatility. Retirees must

(09:36):
diversify income sources to ensure stability. Asset
allocation balances growth stability and income.
Stocks provide long term appreciation while bonds offer steady
returns. Real estate and REITs generate passive
income and annuities can provide guaranteed payments.
Alternative investments can further diversify risk. Risk management

(09:58):
is key. Gradually shifting asset allocation, diversifying
within asset classes and incorporating insurance products help
protect against downturns and unexpected expenses. A
diversified retirement plan includes growth investments to combat
inflation, stable assets for security and multiple
income streams. Regular reviews ensure alignment with

(10:19):
evolving financial needs. Combining traditional and modern
approaches strengthens financial resilience, offering peace of
mind throughout retirement.
Jamie, let me open with a broad question. What key
principles should advisors and clients follow when designing

(10:41):
a diversified retirement income plan?
Well, yeah, that one's not broad, so that's good. It's just
super specific. And look, there's a lot of different ways you can
go here. I'll lay some stuff that hopefully we can build off of as we
go. Think the, you know, the little video talked about the,
you know, three legged stool. I think for more and more Americans, I kind of

(11:04):
use this analogy this year like we've more ended up on a retirement
pogo stick for a lot of people. You've got investments that are bouncing up
and down and that's what a lot of people are looking at. It's not entirely
that way, but it's more that way than ever before that our
personal savings is really the driver moving forward in this country
of retirement security. So that the shift there is occurring

(11:26):
and what that requires is to take on more of an onus that the individual
and advisor level to solve this problem. Right. This problem was initially kind
of tackled by companies and the government and that is
shifting to states, it's shifting down to individuals, it's shifting away from the
employer onto us. And that requires technology
and advisors to step up and for people to build their own

(11:47):
pensions and Social Security supplements, where those aren't going to come
anymore from kind of employers and government in the next future.
Right. Like those are falling behind on that pay scale.
So I think that's the big like macro change that's occurring out there
when you just look at the data and the way things are moving and then
that opens up a whole world of opportunities. At the same time though,

(12:10):
well said. I love the analogy. Dana, what are your thoughts? Is it,
are we all jumping up and down on this pogo stick
and what are your, well, what are your views?
Yeah, In a lot of ways, we are. And as you know from my comment,
I, I, you know, I took issue with the title of, of this today's episode
of maximizing returns for peace of mind because we

(12:31):
measure by that pogo stick. I love that analogy,
Jamie. And when the pogo stick's bouncing up, oftentimes we feel like,
yeah, I can retire, or if I'm already retired, yeah, you know, I'll be fine.
And when the pogo stick bounces down, we can tend to
feel like, oh, my gosh, am I going to be okay? Am I going to
run out of money? Am I going to have to go back to work? And

(12:51):
really, a good retirement plan shouldn't be tied to where
that pogo stick is on its trajectory.
And so, you know, when I think of a good retirement income plan, it's one
that focuses on stability of cash flows over time.
And we're not taught to measure that way. We
measure by our account balances or our net worth, and we

(13:14):
want to see those steadily going up. And in retirement,
that's not the right metric. There are different ways to measure
how much cash flow we'll have, if it can keep pace with inflation
and how long it's expected to last. And I think we really have to
shift to teaching people to look at it differently when
they enter that phase. Dana, to what extent do you

(13:36):
turn to annuities? I think
annuities can be a valuable piece of a retirement
income plan. When they are put in place as part
of a well thought out plan, they do something different
than any other piece of your portfolio, other than
perhaps Social Security. So when you think of longevity risk, one

(13:58):
of the risks we face in retirement is this unknown time horizon. And
oftentimes, you know, the way that the markets are reported
on, almost like a sports game, makes us
think in terms of maximizing returns or finding the latest hot
stock or, you know, growing our portfolio. But you
can make decisions for different reasons and

(14:21):
delaying Social Security or buying an annuity. The reason you might do
that is to protect a unique risk in retirement that none of
your other investment decision decisions can protect. And that's the risk of
having income long as you live. Okay, so
interesting. Maybe I need to. We need to redefine the
game that we're playing. It's not all about watching TV and figuring out, how

(14:43):
do I get more touchdowns in my investment portfolio?
Kerry, you've written a lot about career transitions in
midlife. How does continued work or entrepreneurship
fit into a diversified retirement income plan?
I am so glad you asked that because, I mean, when you were talking at
the top about the three legged stool, I mean, there is a full, and

(15:05):
that's work and working longer. I think that in today's retirement,
it's not what it used to be. I think particularly with longevity,
I mean, the idea of stepping away from work at
65, when you potentially have three decades to support
your living costs without an income stream
from work, I think it's something most Americans need to really pay attention

(15:28):
to. How can they continue to work longer? And by doing
so, what I think is so critical is, yes, and keep contributing to
those retirement accounts. You don't have to pull funds out of those
accounts for living expenses. And as Dana just said, oh my gosh, you can
push back, delay that Social Security benefit
until age 70, where you're going to get the biggest pop as it bumps

(15:50):
up 8% each year from your full retirement age. And so it's
a dramatic way to give yourself some security in
retirement if you can stay working longer. And I just think we're
going to see more of that as we move forward. And then in
order to work, you need to continue to add value to yourself. So
investing in yourself and your skills and that

(16:12):
sort of thing and your talents, where you're going to continue to work, that's
going to really involve some thinking ahead.
Roger, I'm sure you have a lot to say. I'm kind of curious
what frameworks you use to
balance some of these issues, like the need for a reliable income,
with a desire for financial freedom.

(16:36):
That is exactly where I think we need to go as practitioners,
because the answer of how to build the diversified
retirement income plan is actually very simple.
It depends. And that's the answer to almost
every question that we get up for the show or that a client has.
And the reason that it depends is that

(16:58):
this is not a macro homogeneous issue.
At the end of the day, one person is facing one retirement journey
and they have their own set of financial circumstances, health
circumstances, and preferences that they're trying to
solve for. And so frameworks, I think are really the key
in thinking through building a retirement income plan.

(17:23):
And it should start with what you want, what you want your
life to be. That's your vision. And then counting the
resources you have, human capital or social
capital, of Social Security and pensions and annuities and your financial capital
to see if it's actually feasible. And then your income
plan is going to be developed by making it resilient, which is

(17:45):
where the real down and dirty work goes. And it's the part that we
actually do the least of, I think, in our industry,
because it's not specific enough to the individual of exactly how
it's going to happen. But I think that framework,
in that order, will help you get to the one that is the right match
for you. And that might include annuities, it might not. It might include work, it

(18:07):
might not. I want to circle back to Jamie.
Since he can wear a legal hat, he can wear his advisor
hat. How do you recommend clients weigh
guaranteed income products like annuities against market
based investments? Yeah, it's a good way to phrase
it. So it's funny because when Roger mentions. Right. It's not this

(18:29):
homogeneous massive thing, but I always think in both
parts, right. Like I was an attorney by trade, so I think about policy
and big picture too. At the same time though, you always get down to this
individual level. You know what I think when I look at the
annuity and fixed income and guaranteed income world though,
I always think there's a disservice done when we just say annuities because

(18:51):
honestly, it's one of the challenges, like no two annuities look
alike. And whether we're talking about a fixed annuity or variable annuity, then how the
annuity is being used. And that's typically the area you have to get
to with a client when they come in and say we have an annuity. Well,
what is the purpose of that asset for your retirement?
I'm a big fan of starting any. A lot of times we're dealing with

(19:13):
people who have already accumulated different assets or income sources.
And then you're trying to piece them together, figure out if there's better things to
get. So they have a 401k and investments. You're trying to figure out, is that
the right mix of products and services and strategies, or do we need to
move some of that around? So you always kind of start with some
bucket of things and I do think putting a purpose to them

(19:34):
is really important. So is that annuity for lifetime
income like Dana talked about? However, if you look at the annuity
world, it's not the number one use of annuities. It's like we talk about
that a lot, but just fundamentally that's actually a really small percentage
of the annuity world. Most people use annuities more as like a CD
or bond diversifier, so that they'll have

(19:56):
swapping out bonds or CDs for two to three years of fixed income.
That's the driver right now in the annuity world. The second big driver
is actually to have kind of some downside protection, the RILA (registered index-linked annuities)
space. So these indexed annuities with like an
S&P, so they're kind of trading off some top end for some bottom
protection. Those are the two really big drivers actually in the

(20:19):
annuity space right now. So the purpose of those is different than lifetime
income. We're not seeing and have never seen that full
turnover to lifetime income that academics and annuity
providers, life insurance companies expected to see. So when you look
at that, you got to get down to what is the purpose? How are they
going to use these products? How does it fit into the plan? Thank you. For

(20:39):
that context, let's go to segment two.
Sustainable withdrawals are key to a secure retirement. The
4% rule, once a standard guideline, faces
challenges due to longer lifespans, market volatility and
lower interest rates. Adjusting withdrawal rates based on market
conditions or spending needs can help preserve assets.

(21:01):
Dynamic withdrawal strategies like the guardrails approach
or Guyton-Klinger rules adapt withdrawals based on
portfolio performance. The bucket strategy separates funds into
short term cash reserves, mid term conservative investments,
and long term growth assets to balance stability and income.
Tax efficient withdrawals reduce liabilities by prioritizing

(21:23):
taxable accounts before tapping tax deferred and tax free
funds. Managing required minimum distributions ensures
compliance while minimizing tax impact. A structured
withdrawal plan helps retirees balance spending and
portfolio longevity using strategies that adjust to economic
conditions and personal needs ensures financial security

(21:46):
throughout retirement.
Dana, in the last segment, Jamie talked about having
purposes for different buckets. What do you think about the
bucket strategy? Is it a powerful tool for retirement withdrawals?

(22:06):
I think it's a powerful framing tool. I mean, really
what we all do in our industry is something called asset allocation.
So, you know, I think of a triangle, and at one corner you have growth,
and another corner you have safety, and another corner you have income. And
as you move toward one corner of the triangle, you move away from the
other two. And whether it's a bucket strategy or asset

(22:28):
allocation, you're trying to decide, you know, how do I spread my
funds across these three different corners? What's the right balance
between safety, income and growth? And so I found the bucket
strategy, and the research supports that. It, you know, it may not deliver
a better outcome if I were to look at it purely
academically. But if I look at it in terms of people's

(22:50):
behavior and their understanding, which gives them
the, you know, the ability to stick with the strategy, that's where I think it
has a tremendous amount of value and it's something that we talk about in our
practice and, and deploy in portfolios.
Yeah. Keeping, keeping clients to plan. Jamie, can you
talk a little bit about adaptive approaches to

(23:12):
retirement income planning and what role do you think that guardrails
or guardrail based approaches should play? Yeah, so
I'll get, I'll get crap if I don't do this out there. But Roger
knows this one, right. 4% is not a rule. We'll get to that one later.
But the guardrails, I'm a big fan of that. I've been talking

(23:32):
and presenting on guardrails for a while. You know, there's a lot of
guardrails. Best way. I'll just do the simple explanation of this. Think
about a guardrails approach to retirement income. Like
keeping you within a safety bounds of where you can spend
those. You're driving down the road, you've got guardrails and those are there for
safety. Right. They're there to keep your car within this road framework, to

(23:54):
keep you alive. Now that's really your bottom
guardrail in a retirement income plan. When you talk about a top end guardrail,
it's actually a little different. I use the analogy of bowling and you go and
you put down the little bumpers or guardrails and the ball bounces in between
them. And that's actually for fun. So that top end guardrail
in a retirement income approach actually says you have so much saved,

(24:16):
you should increase your spending. So it's actually there for fun, for
enjoyment, while the bottom end guardrail says, hey, look, we're
probably underfunded for your longevity and your spending rate. At this point.
We need to change something for a period of time. It's much
more how we live our lives. When we start running out of money
and your bank account gets low, most people, what we do is we spend

(24:38):
less. And that's really where the guardrail approach came in, was
more akin to how actually looking at US Spending data, how
people spend their money, and then putting a framework around it so
advisors and clients could apply it to their situation.
Roger, you, you want to take us, you want to respond to
Jamie's audio visual? His

(25:00):
visual. I think I, I think there's, there's too much science
going on here in the sense that
what ends up happening as an industry is we approach
retirement planning as a complicated problem
that can be solved. And hence the 4%
rule, or even guardrails

(25:22):
tends to try to overlay an economic or financial
model on someone's life. And they are useful for
sure. And there's validity, validity in using
them. But at the end of the day, people don't spend that way. People
don't think of their life that way. I have these poker
chips that I created for, for my club and

(25:44):
on the back it says "Go Go Years."
And one thing that we don't recognize in actual practice, and
I'm a practitioner, is in
retirement. Life becomes more asymmetrical. Like I have
a 29 year old and his life's pretty symmetrical right now. He can wait
to do something when he's until he's 39 and he'll be

(26:06):
pretty much the same health, same energy, etc, but when
you're 60, there is pressure
to live your life now. We call those the "Go Go Years,"
et cetera. There's a pressure to get it in while you
have your life right now. And that may mean that you are spending
10% of your assets in a particular year

(26:29):
knowing in order to extract life while you're still alive.
So life is much lumpier than
the academic. Not I'm not being on academics, but the, the really all financial
advisors because we're financial geeks to begin with. There's a
much more lumpiness that we're bluntly
uncomfortable with. So we go back to our spreadsheets and create guardrails and

(26:51):
all these other things to try to fit people into a model that we make
that makes sense to us when it's really about their plan. I
want to go back to Dana really quickly because she's working on a book that
is talking about go go years and slow go years.
Dana, how do you manage for that and what are you discovering in your research,
in writing your book right now? Well, a lot

(27:14):
of exactly what Roger just said. And so when
I think about, you know, the fact that we are trying
to take a very complex thing and put it into a manageable set
of rules, you know, he's right. Life doesn't work that way. And so I'll
share my own personal story. You know, I turned 54 this year
and I realized my "Go Go Years" need to overlap with my

(27:37):
"Pre Go Years" so as Kerry said, I want to keep working. I
enjoy what I do. I want to work until I'm 70, but
I don't want to get till 70 and have a hard stop and look back
and think, oh my gosh, I didn't do any of these things along the way.
And so for me it's been this realization of I need to start
planning some things now. So I'm off to hike the Swiss

(27:58):
Alps for two weeks, the first two weeks of July, something I've been wanting
to do for 30 years. And so I think it does
happen differently for each person. Some people are in the
corporate world where, you know, gradually scaling down
simply isn't an option. Their job may entail a hard stop. And
I think that's a little more challenging to figure out what is going

(28:21):
to light you up and give you purpose as you enter this new phase. You
know, other people are lit up by work and so we will continue to
work. I think understanding that those
"Slow Go Years" will happen
is, you know, it helps shape our perspective of what we're going to
do. Earlier on, I mentioned, you know, privately to all of you

(28:42):
the Wall Street Journal Journal article on Warren Buffett where He
said at 94, he's finally feeling his age.
And so we all, you know, hope that that will be us, but
that may not be our path. So how do we make sure we're doing the
things now so that we don't have those regrets later?
Kerry, the lines are blurring, right? It's not just

(29:05):
black and white. "Pre Go Years," "Go Go Years," and then you have
your "Slow Go Years." What are your thoughts on how do we,
how do we balance that? And maybe you also have comments about
are there gender based patterns for spending
behavior and planning accordingly. Yeah, I
think, Andy, that's a good question. I mean, I look at this phase of life

(29:28):
and as people begin to near retirement or enter
retirement is, you know, think of what you might want to do, what you're going
to retire to. So maybe it's not paying work, but you need to have
a plan. I mean, you can wallow around a bit that first year if you're
confident that you have enough savings there. But I think it's a time that
there's no blueprint for us. No one has done this

(29:49):
chapter of life before with these bonus years, so
to speak, you might do something
for a couple of years and shift to something different. You, you might start a
little business and then you sell it or you move on to doing something completely
different. So it really is, as we heard before, it's lumpy, right? I think
that's what Roger was. I love that term because for everybody it's going to be

(30:12):
different. What's going to turn you on? What? But this is
your time to take control of your life. It's not prescribed
about. This is what retirement looks like. It does not look that way anymore.
Somebody at 60 has much more vitality than perhaps our
parents did at this age, I'm not saying everyone does, but
it certainly is a generation that is ready to continue to

(30:34):
contribute and give back and have impact. So I think your financial
security is imperative. You need to sit down with an advisor
and think, what is it I have? What do I have to work with?
And that will determine what kind of work or what kind of projects you might
do in this next phase of life. How big a factor will financial
implications be? How much do you need to earn from something? Maybe you don't.

(30:57):
And so I think it's just important that people open themselves up to possibilities
at this point. I mean, there's so many things that, you know, I wrote
a book called "What's Next? Follow Your Passion and Find Your Dream Job" and
I spent three and a half years traveling around the country meeting people who
did something for about 30 years or so, or 25, 30 years, and shifted
to something completely different. And I was still. I didn't want to do exactly what

(31:20):
they had done, but I was so inspired by these individuals. But when I went
back five years later to update it, about a third of them were doing something
completely different. So there's no rule, as we use that
term, rules. I mean, there's no rules on what your next act is going to
be, but it's going to be vibrant, and your financial security is a
huge piece of it. One interesting part related to that,

(31:42):
Andy, is when we survey podcast listeners and club
members and we ask them what they mean by the word
retirement. I think retirement is actually a really horrible word.
We just can't come up with anything. It's almost taboo when someone
is engaged in life and it's too much work to try to put another piece,
another word into the nomenclature. But when I ask them what they actually

(32:04):
mean by that word, they never really say
absence of work. What they say is they want time
freedom. They want control of their time. They want
to have more agency in the
things they do and how they do it. And I think that's important
because a lot of times someone's going to approach retirement thinking of it as a

(32:26):
binary. I'm either working or I'm retired. And when
we think of retired, we think of our grandparents,
and that might cause them not to do it. Or to what
Kerry was referring to of. Sometimes you do need to re. You need
do need to know what you're retiring to. And we've often preached that.
And I had an A-Ha moment in a meetup with club members where he

(32:48):
was delaying his retirement because he didn't have that what he was going
to figured out. And I think that's actually
a dangerous framing as well. Sometimes you just need to take the
pain away if you're working too much and
too stressed out so you can have the freedom to figure out what the next
thing is. So I think how we frame these things are really important.

(33:11):
Yeah. And this is not your father's or your grandfather's retirement.
It's looking different and it's a perfect
segue. Next segment, we're talking longevity. Let's go to segment
three. Longevity risk. The possibility of outliving
savings is a growing concern due to longer life expectancies
and rising healthcare costs. A structured plan can provide financial

(33:33):
security throughout retirement. Annuities offer guaranteed
lifetime income with fixed annuities providing stability,
variable annuities offering market based returns and indexed
annuities balancing growth and protection. Optimizing Social
Security by delaying benefits can also enhance lifetime income.
Long term care planning is essential with options including

(33:55):
insurance, Medicaid and personal savings. Reverse
mortgages and home equity loans can serve as financial safety nets but
require careful evaluation. Retirees should assess their
income sources. Withdrawal strategies and risk tolerance
tools such as longevity calculators and retirement planning
software can help project financial needs and ensure a

(34:18):
sustainable income. A well rounded approach reduces
uncertainty and provides peace of mind.
So Roger, I've heard you talk about retirement
isn't a math problem, it's a life problem. How do

(34:38):
you help clients to emotionally prepare for the possibility of
living 30, 40 plus years in retirement?
Well, I don't think you help. I think it's a journey. It's lots of little
conversations as life unfolds. I think one part
go back to that complicated versus complex. In science it's really important
to understand what the difference is, right. If it's complicated, it

(35:02):
can be solved. If it's complex, it can only be
managed. And when we're talking about retirement
planning, income planning, longevity planning,
it is something that can only be managed because we don't know how long
we're going to live. We don't know what the quality of our life is going
to be. So this is part of, I think the little

(35:23):
conversations that you have on a consistent
basis to constantly make little adjustments
to your income plan and your health and what you do during
the life. I think that's the best way to approach it because even if we
teach it and we conceptually get it, we don't really
get it because it's worth. We have a hard time thinking

(35:46):
about our future selves now when it comes to income planning and
longevity because it's such an important decision. My
tact, and I'm not saying I'm right, is to hold on to
optionality for as long as possible to do a
more financially based retirement
strategy in those early years with the anticipation of

(36:08):
moving to a more guaranteed income phase
in your later years. But I think when you're
making those very important decisions that are
irreversible, it's good to hold on to optionality as long as possible. Because the
closer you get to 80, the more clarity you'll have what that person's going to
look like. Great point. Jamie,

(36:29):
as an advisor, how do you reframe longevity risk
as a planning opportunity? Yeah, I think actually I've
probably talked to you about this before. Definitely. Roger, I don't like
using the term longevity risk at all. I call it a risk
exacerbator because longevity is actually phenomenal.
It's not a risk that you're going to live a long time. It's the problem

(36:50):
with that is exacerbates other risks, right? Frailty risk, the risk of running out
of money. Longevity in and of self is not a risk. Like, that's a
great thing, right? That's the winning the lottery. You get
to live a long time. And that has shifted, right? Like that's been different,
but it does ebb and flow, right? We've been on kind of a mostly good
run on longevity growth here. You know, I think

(37:13):
one of the things that always stands out to me from a social standpoint,
right, is that Tom Cruise now is older than Betty
White was in Golden Girls, right? So he's like,
that's the movie Cocoon, right? I forget that guy's name,
Wilford something. And he was nine, right? And Tom
Cruise is like three years older than him and doing Mission Impossible movies. And

(37:35):
that guy was in a retirement home and getting abducted by aliens, right? So like,
you know, the world as, as we heard before, like, you know,
vitality shifted a little bit and people are doing things at ages that we
used to think not possible. I do worry when I talk
to clients, though, in all honesty, when people say I'm going to continue to work,

(37:55):
it does happen. But if you look at studies on that,
right, And I see this often is people say, I think it's only
11 or 12% of Americans say that retirement, right,
Will not include work. To Roger's point that, like, there'll be no work in it.
Only about like 15 to 20% of people do any work
whatsoever once they say they retire. So building that into a

(38:17):
plan, honestly for me, for most clients is planning to fail because
they are not going to have that income 80% of the time. And so we
usually back that out of is a great thing if you can
do it. Meaning income sources, if you can push retirement off
six months, has huge impact. So usually we focus more on that
side, to be honest, is like, should you stop saving? That's a

(38:40):
technique we use sometimes two to three years before retirement. Saving
15 grand a year has almost no impact on the sustainability of that
portfolio. So take that money, spend it, go on three more
vacations a year, go to the Alps like Dana, do it and
work six months longer. That's going to have a much more meaningful impact to
your future, your happiness, than saving an extra 15 grand a

(39:02):
year for three years. And so that's one that I'd say is different than a
lot of people do that I've actually put into place now both
my last two firms. I like that balance
of actually living versus fearing
and try to be like, I'm just going to work, I'm going to work longer
and I'm going to save every penny because I'm worried about

(39:23):
what the future holds. Dana,
how do you help clients prepare for cognitive decline
as part of income planning? You know, that
is one of the most challenging things. I don't know,
you know, how you can help people prepare for it,
other than to raise the level of awareness. To talk about

(39:46):
this in the "Slow Go Phase" of the book I'm writing, I did some of
my own research and learned that on average, the brain
shrinks about 5% a year each. Not 5% a year,
5% per decade. Let me clarify that. 5% per
decade, starting when we turn 40. And
so the part of the brain that's most impacted is also the

(40:08):
part of the brain that typically governs our self awareness. Which is
why when you see cognitive decline begin, people are often
unaware that their behaviors have changed. And
so some of the experts that I've talked to have
suggested things like having a trusted advocate that
can help pay attention to your behaviors. You know,

(40:30):
asking, you know, if you're dealing with an elderly parent, for example,
asking them, you know, how did they handle their parents when they
reached that phase? How do you recognize if you
are beginning to pay bills on, you know, no
longer on time, or if you're having difficulty
understanding the insurance renewals that are coming up on your

(40:51):
home? So there's things like that that get more challenging and we
may not recognize those challenges and, and so
I think it's so important. You know, I'm obviously a
big advocate of having a financial advisor or a trusted financial
advocate as you go through this phase, because they're going to be able to
identify things and if that relationship is in place, you're going to have some

(41:13):
trust there to believe them and let them guide you
through that process. Some of
us feel like our brains are shrinking faster than others.
I want to ask Kerry, since you've been, since you have this new
book coming out, Love the title, "Retirement Bites." How can Gen

(41:33):
X catch up if they feel like
they're behind in their planning for a longer retirement?
Well, Andy, that's a good question. I think that there is hope.
There's definitely, you know, the first gen Xer turned 60 this year,
so that's sort of amazing. But it's this generation that has gone through a lot
of ups and downs and recessions and so forth and

(41:56):
401ks were just getting started when they entered the workforce, so
nobody quite understood how those work. But there is still time. And
as we were just talking about, if
someone can work just a little bit longer, if they don't want to have an
encore career, fine. But if they can stave off having
to step away just a few more years and can keep socking money

(42:18):
away, there is power in being able to do that. And I think
this whole thing that it comes down to one piece that you sort of
alluded to here with Dana is this medical thing. Because I just
did a column last week for Yahoo Finance on
the rising senior debt crisis, medical
debt crisis. And it is amazing. I mean this is a

(42:40):
huge factor in many people because they think Medicare is going to cover
everything for them. And in fact it does not. And there's just significant
out of pocket costs. And I know both of my parents had dementia.
I know what we spent for them to be in memory care units
have in house care, I mean it's astronomical what you can end up.
I have a friend now who, her husband has Parkinson's and she's had to

(43:04):
put him in a memory care unit and it's $22,000 a
month. Now this is something financial advisors can help you
prepare for a health care plan so that your portfolio and
you're financially set to understand not everyone's going to have
these medical crises, but it can happen in a blink of an eye. And all

(43:24):
of a sudden everything you've saved and worked hard for is gone because
of the healthcare crisis. So I do think this is an important
piece of the retirement planning that somebody at Gen X, they have
time to start, okay, I'm going to make sure I carve out just this cushion
to be sure that I'm going to be able to go through and plan
to work a bit longer, if you can possibly do that. And I love the

(43:46):
idea of entrepreneurship because that gives you that, you
know, autonomy, the ability to work on your schedule, to do what something you
absolutely love to do, something you may have put off for years doing. And
you don't have to have bricks and mortar. You can do this at home, you
can do it virtually, and it's not a huge expense to get up
to speed on something and get rolling and at least bring in some income from

(44:07):
something you love to do. One thing Andy related to the
question about what do you do if you're behind? And we were talking about
this, I think off air, and Dana made the point how important
it is to talk to people that are in their 80s or even their 90s.
We recently had Charles Ellis on the show, and his life
wisdom was even more important than his investing

(44:30):
wisdom. But one thing that I have learned or observed
and that's very not talked about near as much, I think, as
it could be, is design a life that doesn't cost that
much. I don't the people, when I think of the
cohort of people that I. Know. Increase
in spending does not create more happiness in retirement.

(44:52):
I know we have, we've had retirement plan live case studies
where they're spending like $30,000 a year and they're the happiest people in the world.
And I know people that are spending, you know, $200,000 a year.
They're constrained and they're not happy. If you design a life
that fulfills you, that doesn't have to cost a lot
of money, that's a huge lever if you feel like

(45:14):
you're behind the eight ball. Because ultimately happy isn't going to come from the, the,
the amount that you spend every year. Great
perspective. Yeah. Go ahead. Can I add one thing to
that? Just what Roger was saying. I read, there was a Gallup study that
came out recently that showed that, you know, people before their retirement
are, you know, fearful of not having saved enough and what's it going to

(45:37):
be like. And then when they went back and followed these people when they were
in retirement, they had done just what Roger said. They had adjusted to
whatever they're spending. They were far happier. And then everyone
they had ever imagined they would be, and they weren't as concerned about money.
As the pre retirement phase, when they're freaking out about not,
you know, running out of money, but once they get there, you make adjustments,

(45:59):
you live a simpler life if you need to. Yeah. And I will
plug the previous episode that Dana was
on. She made the point that so many retirees fear
running out of money going into it, but in her experience,
so many actually have a surplus of savings and
find that, oh, they can actually relax, breathe and make an

(46:21):
adjustment to spend a little bit more. So let's go to
segment four. Financial anxiety in retirement is
common, driven by concerns about outliving savings, unexpected
expenses, and market downturns. A structured plan
helps reduce stress and maintain financial confidence. Tracking
expenses, distinguishing between essential and discretionary

(46:43):
spending, and adjusting budgets during downturns can create
a more predictable income flow. Awareness of cognitive
biases such as loss aversion and overconfidence
prevents emotional decision making and costly mistakes. Seeking
objective advice from a financial planner or using online tools
can provide reassurance. Beyond finances, A fulfilling

(47:04):
retirement involves lifestyle design. Purpose driven activities like
volunteering, hobbies and travel contribute to well being.
Strong social connections also play a role in financial and emotional
stability. A peace of mind checklist covering financial security,
health care, lifestyle and emotional well being ensures
retirees stay on track. Proactive planning fosters

(47:27):
confidence, helping retirees enjoy a secure and fulfilling
future.
So, Dana, you objected a little bit to the title of this episode,
maximizing returns. What role do you see

(47:47):
for financial planning tools or even behavioral
coaching in helping clients to reduce retirement anxiety?
You know, I would say the number one thing that we
hear after an annual review with a client, you know,
let's say we've been building their plan and working together for a while is,

(48:07):
wow, you know, I feel so much better after we meet. And
particularly with everything in the news right now. You
know, I would say at the beginning of this year, probably 40% of
our client base would have made emotional decisions
with their money if not for
a sound guiding voice, reminding them

(48:29):
of perspective, reminding them of the long term plan
and having that counsel. You know, this is where I do think
the math comes into play. You know, we're managing the
complexity. I love that description. Having someone
on your side that can help with that brings back
reason, it reduces anxiety, it brings

(48:52):
peace of mind. And that is one of the key roles that
an advisor plays. Yeah,
that's a, that's a win for Sensible Money.
Jamie, what cognitive, cognitive
biases are the most damaging in retirement planning? And
since you spoke about an adaptive approach,

(49:14):
how does a client maintain discipline?
Yes, I'll kind of answer this question.
So I think one of the things, I got the opportunity to interview President Bush
a couple years back, and it was 2021, the world was
kind of trying to figure out where it was going. And I remember asking him,
kind of, how does he think America is going to play out? And he said,

(49:36):
we're going to be fine because we have some of the most adaptable and resilient
people on the planet. Reality is, you know, markets, economy,
all those things have actually done really well since that time period. Right. We've
continued to move forward. I think that's true. When you look at retirees,
there's a lot of fear heading into it. And then when you look at people
who do become disenfranchised or upset in retirement, it

(49:57):
is mostly connected to lack of meaning and like connection to
people. Right. They're communities diminish, they move away from them.
They don't get the connection from work. It's less so about the financial
aspect. People adapt, they figure it out. In retirement, as
Roger said, you probably have more control over cutting your expenses and
lifestyle. You can't just generate an extra million dollars or more income.

(50:20):
It's actually really hard to do at that point. But you can change your life
around a bit. The thing that I worry about most today,
kind of two things. I think that fraud in, you know,
looking at, you know, AI videos, all of that is going
to become rampant. I mean, it's the biggest concern out there. If you talk to,
you know, government, the Fed, any of those agencies,

(50:42):
because it's getting really complicated. I think that's going to be a huge fear
generator in the next couple years for, for our senior
Americans that are less technologically savvy.
And it's a big concern. I think the other thing is, you know, while
misinformation has always been out there, you know, I saw last year, I
think it was 80% of Americans thought the stock market was down at the end

(51:04):
of the year. Right. Like, it's, it's wildly
inaccurate. I think the other part was, I saw recently, most
Americans are worried about the violence in the country right now.
America, from like a violent crime standpoint, break ins,
burglaries, assault, is like, we're about the
safest we've ever been since this country was founded. It does not

(51:25):
feel that way to people, but, like the world's about as safe as it's
ever been. It does not feel that way when you check into the news at
all. Because we see these things occurring that we used to not see
occurring. But like, the reality is, like, those things are vastly
different than what we think is going on in the world today. Right.
And I think that that's a challenge for people moving forward. When you have

(51:47):
more time on your hands, you sit and you watch the news, you become fearful
and disenfranchised and, and you know, you can spend
most of your day right on your phone and your computer. Nowadays, we
have the least amount of people with like three close friends at any point
in history. Those are the things that, like, I worry about when it comes to
retirement. I don't see the savings or spending financial crisis

(52:09):
that people talk about. I think we'll be okay there.
Kerry, can you share a story of someone who found purpose in
retirement that positively impacted their financial well
being too? Well, I will say there are so many of
them, Andy. But one thing I'll just quickly say, loneliness is
a huge, a huge issue that we need to pay attention to for the aging

(52:32):
population. But for example, John
Covington is a gentleman who, when he retired, he
did take mandatory retirement from the Navy, and he was a captain
and so forth. And Don had been stationed
all over the world. And he actually could have gone on to be a commercial
pilot, work for the Defense Department in some way. But what Don did is

(52:54):
he ran away with the circus. And the thing is, Don absolutely
loved the circus Ever since he was a little kid. He'd go to the circus
in Baltimore with his dad and, and so forth, and everywhere he was deployed,
he would find a circus. He got circus magazines. So when he took that
retirement, Don went and joined the Big Apple Circus
as the project, as the company manager. And he managed this

(53:16):
troop of people up and down the east Coast. It was a nonprofit.
And I'm like, Don, what does the, what does the military and the circus?
How does this relate at all? And he goes, kerry, they are very similar.
It was just because he redeployed his skills. And so what that is, is
all of his project management leadership skills. And that's really what

(53:36):
happens, is you're able to take the things that you did and shift it into
a new direction. And he only worked part of the year doing this. His wife
was a nurse. She became the wardrobe director for the troop.
And, you know, it was a brilliant period in his life. And it was a
retirement that he was giving back. But he was also enriched himself
like a kid under the big top. Love it. Love it. Can we, can we

(53:58):
take a moment and just congratulate Kerry? You stayed on that
story and your wonderful puppy wanted some attention. It's
my sister's Rhodesian Ridgeback who I'm taking care of for a month.
I've been there, but she burst into. The room and then she was like
out of control. Yeah, kudos for
saying on track with the story. I wasn't sure if the dog

(54:20):
was objecting to the circus or needs to go out for a walk.
I think she's just bored. She misses her mom,
probably. Definitely. She definitely. Loneliness. Loneliness.
Loneliness. Exactly. Thanks, Roger. You help yourself.
Roger, you help your clients design an "ideal week" in retirement.

(54:40):
How does that exercise improve both their financial
and emotional outcomes? So I've been married
35 years in October, and one
thing I found is that you have to tell your spouse that
you care about them and demonstrate it consistently.
You can't just do it at the altar and think that they get it. And

(55:03):
retirement planning is very much the same way. You have to
continually rebuild what I call. It's cheesy, but it's the
campfire of confidence. And that's the experience that
Dana's client had. And having clarity
on what you're going to do week by week or
exactly, literally exactly how you're going to create your

(55:25):
paycheck over the next few years brings
confidence. And so the how do you build that
ideal week? When you're thinking about it, it gives some structure or
scaffolding so you're not just waking up and wondering what's what the
heck is going to happen. And I believe confidence is
the confidence to lean into your life

(55:47):
is really what a good retirement plan or retirement planner
does. And we just happen to do it with financial planning
and some non financial planning. So I think that
clarity is really important. It's important on the week, but it's also
important on the year and the next five years because that's how you're going
to have enough confidence to actually show up for your life.

(56:09):
Confidence. I love it. And I want to take the opportunity to
thank both Jamie and
Kerry in case they have to drop off. As we approach the top of the
hour, we're going to go straight into segment five now.
A retirement plan isn't static. It must evolve to keep pace

(56:30):
with inflation, market shifts and personal circumstances.
Inflation can erode purchasing power, making it important to invest in
inflation protected securities, dividend stocks and real
assets. Regular rebalancing helps maintain an
appropriate asset allocation, avoiding excessive
conservatism that could limit growth. Unexpected expenses can

(56:52):
be managed with emergency cash reserves and insurance solutions
like long term care policies. Estate planning ensures assets
are distributed according to personal wishes while minimizing
taxes. Key milestones, such as market downturns,
health changes, or shifts in family needs should prompt
a reassessment of financial strategy. Regular plan reviews,

(57:14):
inflation adjustments, and portfolio rebalancing keep
finances on track. A structured roadmap helps
retirees stay financially secure, adapt to change, and
maintain peace of mind throughout retirement.
Okay, Jamie has 30 seconds. How do you define resilience

(57:36):
in a modern retirement plan? Oh, he's. Oh, he's there. That's a.
That's a great one. Resilience. So I talk about
resilience like grit, right. It's. It's the ability to go through the
bumps and hurdles throughout retirement when things aren't going exactly what you want,
how you want them to do, but to get back towards it with purpose.
So it's not just like what they say, just get back on the horse and

(57:57):
keep riding. That's actually stupid. Right. You have to have a purpose to get back
on the horse. Right. So you know, where are you going and why? I
think that's the most important part. Right. Start with your why, and then everything
else will work out. So that's, that'll be my closing thing for today. That's the
most important thing. My kids are my why. I know that every day. So that's
why I, I do everything that I do. But appreciate it. Everyone. Dana,

(58:20):
Andy, Roger, and I think Kerry's gone, but thanks, Kerry too. Have a great
day, everyone. Thank you, Jamie. He drops the mic and he's out.
Dana, how do you stress test retirement plans and what scenarios do
you model most frequently to help clients stay on track?
Yeah, so when we stress test, we do get into the

(58:41):
math, and it is our way of trying to manage that
complexity. So we use something called "Fundedness",
which is, I think of it as a lifetime 4%
rule. So I agree with Jamie.
4% is not a rule. It's a very broad general starting
place, and it doesn't account for spending

(59:03):
volatility, a term that I just read in JP Morgan's retirement
report. Early in your retirement years, spending
volatility is high, there are a lot of lumpy expenses,
and you could easily and healthily exceed the 4%
rule and, you know, withdraw more in many years, especially if you're
spending declines in the later years. And so we have mathematical formulas

(59:25):
we use to account for all of that in terms of
the scenarios we're planning for, we're often building in
those "Go Go Year" experiences, whether it's travel
Helping an adult child buy a home, funding the
grandkids college education, doing a family
lifetime trip where, you know, someone's paying for everyone to come

(59:48):
along. I remember a 50th year wedding
anniversary ring that I was able to encourage, you know, someone to
buy for their spouse. So those are some of the fun things that we
help plan for that, you know, we find joy in helping people accomplish
these things also. Roger, how often
should retirees revisit their retirement plan?

(01:00:10):
This is a great question, but I want to give a little bit of a
rebuttal for myself is I tend to come off as the
non math guy and I'm not saying you were saying that
data. I love math and I love the structure of it, but I feel like
I have to be ballast against all the geeks that are in our industry. Math
is important because it brings discipline and I know how Dana does her

(01:00:32):
practice and we're very similar in that regards. How often--this is
actually something I've been noodling on a lot lately is
retirement planning should be
compartmentalized. Once you build a
retirement plan of record, which is essentially a
artifact or log of the decisions of your current

(01:00:55):
version of what you want your life to look like after you've counted the cost,
made it resilient, then the next question is, well, how often should
you think about retirement planning?
We have a standard of care that we use in our practice and we preach
in the club which tries to compartmentalize it to
where you have two larger meetings a year, where the

(01:01:17):
more formal meetings a year where you test your resilience and you look at
feasibility and you, and you look at your life and then maybe two
off meetings where you're working on maybe it's the estate plan or something else.
But I believe more and more that we should,
even if you're doing it yourself, have a retirement planner hat on,
have those two core meetings, have the agenda for those

(01:01:41):
meetings and then outside of those meetings, go
live your life. I think sometimes this just becomes a free floating thing
that we read and think about and we forget to do what
the point is, right. Jamie is his kids, Dana is climbing
mountains. So I think two times a year,
unless you have a life change or you have some major

(01:02:02):
event that you have to navigate, is more than enough.
Dana, I see you nodding. Yeah, I would agree with that. You
know, I think that, you know, we have very defined touch points. You know, one
time of year where we're looking at the, the, all of the various stress tests
and the cash flow plan and another time of year where we're taking a deeper
dive on income taxes and, and, you know, doing some of that.

(01:02:27):
You know, I think something Roger said earlier is what, you
know, may not be related to the question, but it was really percolating in my
head was around the need for a schedule and, and designing
your ideal, you know, work, not work week, but
retirement week. I don't know for me personally if
getting down to the level of a week would be useful, but I can see

(01:02:48):
that it would be super useful for many people. I've
realized for me, having a schedule is going to be key.
You know, getting up and having nothing
planned is great for a few days, but not for the rest of my life.
And so I will need to get up and have a plan
and have goals, and maybe those will be health and fitness goals, that

(01:03:11):
maybe they'll be volunteer goals, maybe they'll be different ways
I'm continuing to contribute to the financial services industry
later in life, but I, I will clearly need goals and a schedule.
And I, I think that is part of resilience in retirement. Having a plan
for those things is probably more important even than
the finances. Roger, any last

(01:03:33):
word? Ditto. I think she's. Yeah, ditto.
Well, I think with a retirement planning standpoint point, treat it like
a dentist. Like, this is what we do. If you're, even if you're doing yourself,
just go ahead and schedule the meeting six months from now and have an
agenda and not think about it because it's about the outcome. And I think that's
where Dana and I, and we have similar training and philosophies. I

(01:03:56):
think it's about life
outcomes. You know, what are you trying to optimize? Is an
important question to answer in accumulation.
When it comes to finances, you're trying to optimize growth of
principal, growth of assets. And this
is something that I think is underappreciated in retirement.

(01:04:19):
The whole point of the exercise changes pretty dramatically
because we're trying to optimize life outcomes. And I think that's
something that we forget because the numbers are in. Investments are
so easy to dive into. I just used a
term I started writing for Fritz Gilbert's blog, the Retirement
Manifesto, and I just used a term in it called maximizing

(01:04:41):
my life satisfaction value. And I thought,
you know, as you get to a certain stage in life, that is really what
it's about. What are the decisions I'm going to make? How am I going to
use my time, my energy, my finances to
maximize my life satisfaction value?
You can get satisfaction, the Rolling Stones are wrong.

(01:05:05):
And Fritz Gilbert, another past guest on Inspired
Money. Big fan, early retiree, and he's
been navigating his way through retirement. What a powerful
conversation this has been. Thank you to all the panelists for sharing their
actionable wisdom. One of my favorite takeaways from today
is the reminder that retirement is not a finish line.

(01:05:28):
It's a new phase of life that deserves just as much planning,
intention and flexibility as you're working years.
And there are so many things outside of your control. So to focus on
outcomes and embrace the fact
that it's not just a snapshot in time,
your retirement plan, it really is a living

(01:05:51):
document that's going to be changing with
every financial decision, change in
the economy, the stock market, or even, you know,
your own decisions, whether it's making a big trip or buying that
50th anniversary wedding ring.
Last week we talked about money mindset and the importance of awareness. I

(01:06:14):
also like that awareness applies to retirement too. While
I don't advocate watching daily price fluctuations,
that's going to be very stressful. It pays to set a plan and check
in on that plan periodically to track your progress. And
we frequently hear the analogy of having a GPS on a road trip.
And your retirement plan is like having GPS so you can anticipate

(01:06:36):
detours, traffic jams, and adjust your route when needed.
If you've been feeling uncertain about your own retirement
income plan, here's your assignment for the week. Take just 30
minutes to map out your expected sources of income in
retirement pensions, Social Security, savings,
investments and identify any potential gaps.

(01:06:58):
Just getting it down on paper can give you clarity and
start pointing you into the right direction to
make smarter and more confident decisions. Thank you for
tuning in to Inspired Money. Keep learning, stay intentional and as
always, be inspired to take action. Inspired Money is
created and produced by me, Bradley John Eagle Feather, who is

(01:07:20):
behind the scenes doing the live stream and edited
segments. Chad Lawrence does our graphics, animations and
editing. A big thank you to our guests. Before we
close, I want to encourage you, our inspired money maker,
to check out our guests and their work. You can find Jamie at
hopkinsamiehopkins.com in dmt.com

(01:07:41):
to learn more. Dana
Anspach her books "Control Your Retirement Destiny" and "Social Security Sense" are at
sensiblemoney.com. Kerry Hannon you
can pre-order her newest book, "Retirement Bites" at kerryhannon.com.
And
Roger Whitney. Listen to the Retirement Answer

(01:08:03):
Man podcast. Grab his book "Rock Retirement." Rogerwhitney.com. Roger
and Dana,
anything else you want to add or plug before
we go? No.
I love these discussions. Me too. This has been great. Thank you so
much Andy. Thank you both for your time and your generosity. I

(01:08:25):
want to thank everybody for joining us today. Next week I'm
not sure yet what topic we're going to go with. It's going
to depend on guest availability and how things come together. Our

choices are "The Power of Networking (01:08:36):
Building
Meaningful Connections for Personal and Professional Growth"
or "Classic Car Restorations:
Reviving Automotive Legends." Very different topics,
but I think both we will have a lot of fun with.
If you have a preference, leave a comment. I'll let you know on social

(01:08:58):
media how we schedule the next show. That's going to be Wednesday, June
11th at 1pm Eastern. I look forward to seeing you then.
Until next time, do something that scares you because that's where the
magic happens. Thanks everybody.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Retirement Income Strategies: Maximizing Returns for Peace of Mind