The Science of Happiness and Financial Well-Being

Episode Transcript
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(00:51):
Aloha. Welcome Inspired Money Maker. Thanks for tuning in. If
this is your first time here, welcome. If you're returning welcome back
to Inspired Money, where we explore how to make more, give
more, and live more. We've all heard the saying
money cannot buy happiness. But is it really true?
Research tells us it's a little more complicated. Sure, money can

(01:13):
make life easier and less stressful, but beyond a
certain point, more dollars don't automatically mean more joy.
So what does? Is it how we spend? The choices we make with our
partners? Or maybe the sense of purpose that comes with aligning money
with our values? That's what we're diving into today, the science
of happiness and financial well being. And to

(01:36):
explore it, we've brought together an amazing lineup. Leading
voices in psychology, consumer behavior and happiness
studies. People who have spent their careers
untangling the complicated relationship between money and
joy. It's going to be a fascinating conversation
and I think that you'll walk away with new insights for both your wallet

(01:57):
and your well being. Before we introduce today's
experts, I want to thank today's sponsor. This episode of Inspired
Money is brought to you by my financial advisory firm, Runnymede
Capital Management. When it comes to money and happiness, clarity
brings peace of mind. That's why I invite you to try our
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(02:20):
Go to runnymede.com/getplan and you'll see
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(02:42):
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runnymede.com/getplan.
See how close you are to financial freedom
today. Now let's bring in our expert panelists.

(03:05):
It's the end of August, so this is kind of like going back to
school for me. We have three esteemed
professors. Let me start with our first guest. He
is the "Master Teacher of Happiness," according to Professor Martin
Seligman at UPenn. Tal Ben-Shahar
taught two of the most popular courses in Harvard's history on

(03:27):
positive psychology and the psychology of leadership.
His best selling books including Happier and Being Happy
have been translated into more than 30 languages. Today
he's pioneering the world's first advanced degrees in
happiness studies. Please welcome Dr. Tal Ben-Shahar.

(03:48):
Hi Andy. Great to be here. Thank you for having me on the
show. Glad you're here. You couldn't get the green screen
going. I thought we were going to see you like in different places all over
the earth. Yeah, I wanted to be in Hawaii right now. It
didn't quite work out, but I like your thinking. Aloha.
Next we have Scott Rick. He's a behavioral

(04:11):
scientist whose work covers why we spend, save
and sometimes sabotage our financial well being. He's a
professor at the University of Michigan's Ross School of Business and
author of Tight Wads and Spendthrifts. His research
has been featured everywhere from the New York Times to NPR.
Please welcome Dr. Scott Rick. Andy, thanks so much for

(04:33):
having me. So glad that you're here. And rounding out
our panel today we have Talya
Miron-Shatz. You should say it.
Talya Miron-Shatz. How do you pronounce her name? You're pronouncing it perfectly.
Andy. Oh gosh. Thank you. Thank you.
She's a psychologist and author whose career has been

(04:54):
dedicated to understanding how we make life's most important
decisions, from money to medicine to happiness itself.
She studied under Nobel Prize winner Daniel
Kahneman, taught at Wharton, and is the author of Your

Life Depends on It (05:10):
What You Can Do to Make Better
Choices. Please welcome Dr.
Talya Miron-Shatz. Thank you. It's a pleasure to
be here and it's a pleasure to be speaking about these topics which are
always relevant also to me as a person. It's not like I know
everything and then I'm good. We need to learn and keep on learning and

(05:32):
keep on thinking and deciding. Well, I'm so excited to
have the professors here today. This esteemed panel of
experts. We're going to have a thoughtful and fascinating conversation
about happiness and well being. Let's get into it with
segment one.
Happiness is influenced by factors beyond financial wealth.

(05:55):
Research in positive psychology highlights the importance of relationships,
purpose, personal growth and wellbeing practices.
Strong social connections provide emotional support, reduce stress and
enhance life satisfaction. A sense of purpose gives direction
and fulfillment, improving resilience and long term happiness.
Personal growth fosters self confidence and competence through learning,

(06:17):
challenges and self improvement. Mindfulness,
gratitude and acts of kindness are practical tools that contribute to well
being. Studies show that individuals with strong social ties,
meaningful goals and a commitment to self improvement report higher life
satisfaction than those who focus solely on financial success.
While money can provide security, its impact on happiness diminishes

(06:39):
beyond a certain point. A balanced approach that prioritizes
relationships, purpose and personal development leads to greater
well being and a more satisfying life.
So before we get started into the questions, I did see messages flashing
across the screen very quickly. So greetings to everybody joining us.

(07:02):
I did see Natália from Brazil. So thank you
for joining us, everybody. So excited that you're here with us. Let me
start with Tal. You've called happiness life's ultimate
currency. How do you explain to people that happiness is
about more than wealth? Yeah.
So, you know, think about it this way. If you had as

(07:25):
much money as you wanted, a billion dollars just handed over to
you, and suddenly you found out that
with that billion dollars you're
guaranteed misery. So you'll have
all the money in the world that you need, but you're guaranteed misery.
Would you take that money now? Of course, many people would say, you know, when

(07:47):
I did it with my kids, they said, well, with a billion dollars, I'll find
a way to be happy. What if you really couldn't?
Well, then that money wouldn't be worth much to you.
You would rather have a lot less money
and be guaranteed or at least have the opportunity to
pursue happiness. This goes back thousands of years ago

(08:10):
to the idea of Aristotle, who talked about happiness being
the highest end, the goal towards which
all other goals lead. In other words, at best, money
is a means towards happiness,
not an end in itself. Happiness is the end. Wealth
potentially is the means. So most of us did not

(08:32):
have a happiness class in elementary school, middle
school, high school, or college. Is it about
defining our happiness?
Well, first of all, we need to understand what happiness is.
Happiness is not about, is not the
same as pleasure, for example. Yeah, sure, pleasure is part of it.

(08:55):
But happiness is a much deeper concept
which includes, as we saw in the segment, a sense of meaning
and purpose. It comes through gratitude. It certainly comes
through cultivating relationships. So
happiness is more of a holistic concept and
construct. Helen Keller said it more than 100 years ago. To me, the

(09:17):
only definition of happiness
is wholeness.
Talya, why do people often mispredict
what will actually bring them lasting happiness? Yes,
some of it has to do, you know, with our
background, meaning our historical background. You know, in the past

(09:40):
there was a great deal of scarcity, There was a
great deal of uncertainty. Today, in
today's world, for Most people, certainly not all,
but certainly people who are living in developed or even
developing countries. There is more certainty, there is
less scarcity. And yet our brain works in the same

(10:02):
way as it did millions of years ago, which
means that we equate
having enough with being happy, having enough
material goods to being happy. And now, since there
was always scarcity, there was never enough. So we
were never happy. Or we only became happier when

(10:24):
we thought that we could get more. This
mindset is not appropriate for
today's world. Talya, your thoughts.
I want to bring up the notion of what is countable and what
looks good on social media as opposed to what feels good.

(10:44):
So we're constantly exposed to. We're blasted by
images of people consuming things, of people doing things,
of people. You know, Friday, soon it's going to be Friday afternoon
in the US Having a nice cocktail, going out to
dinner. You can do all these things and they're going to look great
on social media. Granted, of course. But then you have

(11:07):
the distinction between hedonic and eudaimonic pleasures. And
hedonic are like having a cocktail, having a drink, having fun. All
these things that are. That are fun, but are. They're not
fulfilling. I don't want to say they're shallow. It's very judgmental.
But you need a good balance between that and the eudaimonic happiness, which
is about, what am I achieving in my life? Am

(11:29):
I connected to people in a meaningful way? Am I helping
anyone? Am I making a difference? Am I becoming
a better person? Am I proud of myself? And these things
bring on a deeper sense of happiness that
is more lasting, there's more meaningful, and I think is
less dented by someone else having a nicer shirt than me or buying a

(11:52):
better purse than me, or any of these things
that occur and are visible and
can look great and get multiple likes, but don't necessarily bring
us happiness. And while we're on the topic of likes, I want
to talk about the idea of a treadmill. And Kahneman
discussed it years ago that there's a happiness treadmill. It really relates to

(12:14):
what Tal was talking about in terms of what we have. I have
more now than I ever thought I would, honestly. But I don't
wake up every morning say, oh, my God. Which is a shame, by the
way, because I. I adjust. We all adjust. So we adjust
to what we have and we stop being impressed by it or overjoyed
by it. And we compare upward. We

(12:36):
compare to people who have more, better.
We don't compare downward. We don't say,
hey, this is hashtag have it. Really good, actually.
Yay, that's enough. That's fantastic. And
this is, you know, it's on a different level from finding one's life's
purpose and one's eudaimonic joy.

(12:58):
But it is also important on the more materialistic level. It's
like, it's a good exercise for us to, to try
and practice. It's interesting because it is.
The goalposts are always moving.
It's changing. You know, we think that, okay, I'm happy today, but
then tomorrow comes along and you see somebody drive by

(13:22):
in some like classic sports car or something, and you say,
oh, I'm not really doing as good as I thought.
Scott, I want to ask you about tightwads or
spendthrifts. Do tightwads or
spendthrifts tend to experience more emotional friction about happiness and
money? Yeah. So for people not

(13:44):
familiar with the terms, my research has found
that there are some people who we call, affectionately call
tightwads who are kind of frustrated with their
inability to spend in ways that they think they should.
There are vacations that they think they should take, but they just can't spend the
money on it. That's a very frustrating experience. On the other end of the

(14:05):
spectrum, there are some spendthrifts who tend to spend too much.
Know that maybe I don't really need this, or I might get kind of
bored with it, but they just can't. The brakes on the car don't work and
they can't stop themselves from getting it. So
these are two really interesting types of people
who money kind of is often taking them away

(14:28):
from happiness, but in very different ways. Kind of not spending enough or
spending too much. But the good
news is there are ways to adjust that
and develop a different sense of
distress when spending money. Some have too much of it, some have
not enough. But there are ways to work around it.

(14:51):
So both can be unhappy, both can be happy. It's just, I guess, what
lens are you looking through? Sure.
What are you worried about? They both want to,
you know, prevent bad things from happening, but they, they have different bad things in
mind. Like a tightwad might be worried about going broke.
Even if their bank accounts look wonderful. You might look at

(15:14):
them objectively and say they would not really have any anxiety about
spending money, but they're really worried about going broke. Whereas the
spendthrift might be worried about what if I get to the end of my life
and I haven't lived like a good adventurous, rich,
you know, a lot of variety and novelty. They're worried about that.
And so those worries can become

(15:37):
kind of overwhelming. And ideally you could find like some balance between
the two. Let me ask the panel, what are
your thoughts on the research that says that, you know,
after a certain dollar amount that
it doesn't make as much of a difference?

(15:59):
Is there only marginal gain after a certain point?
Yeah, I know there's been some very recent research on this and, you know, there's
a lot of questions about methods and how do you interpret the data properly. And
maybe people at different levels are reading the question differently,
but I think intuitively it does make some sense

(16:20):
that, you know, certainly at a. Once you've gotten past
fulfilling the basic needs and, and some
extra little varieties that, you know, there's only so much, there's
diminishing returns. I think that basic finding
makes a lot of sense.
Sorry, go ahead, go ahead, Talya please. I was at the University of

(16:42):
Princeton when Angus Deaton, Nobel Prize winner Angus
Deaton, came up with finding that
happiness does go up, but in a logarithmic way. So it
does add to your additional financial
benefits, do add to your happiness, but not in
a linear way, but in a logarithmic way. So there are

(17:06):
diminishing returns. I think the
question we need to ask ourselves, because most of us will not be
faced with the question of do you want to make another $100,000
a year? 200, 300,000? That's not really the question.
I think the question for us should be how am I living
my life or even how am I making my money?

(17:29):
Because money is accountable. I mean, is something that you can
count. You make a million dollars a year. Wow. You make two,
three millions. Amazing, amazing, amazing. More than me because I only
make five. You make seven. You know, it's very easy to count and it's very
easy to have people be impressed by it and for us to be impressed by
it. And the question is, how am I making this

(17:50):
money and what am I doing alongside making
this money? Because if I'm making money in a way that's making me
miserable, if I am working
my butt off, sorry to be making this
money and I'm pushing myself away from my family and
I don't have a moment to breathe and all I base my

(18:13):
self esteem on is my money, that may not be very
healthy for me. So these are other things to consider
because, you know, when you're making $7 million, that's a
beautiful amount of money. And nobody's asking you
listen, you live. So I'm, I'm in Cambridge right now.
Cambridge, UK. So have you, have you managed to walk by the river

(18:35):
like last week? Did you go on Jesus Green? So
beautiful. Did you have an ice cream? Nobody will ever ask you these
questions, but this will really add to your happiness.
So to balance it out, I think is
crucial. It's important, even if
nobody counts that and your bank manager is unimpressed by you having

(18:57):
an ice cream on Jesus Green. And I want to go
back to the idea of happiness being the ultimate currency.
If you do look at happiness at the ultimate currency, then you can actually
measure the, or evaluate rather the
benefits of each one of your actions.

(19:17):
So how much is it worth to me that I have,
say, the extra $50,000 in the bank?
Well, if my basic needs are not met, a lot.
But if my basic needs are met, then it's going to add very little
to my happiness. However, how much

(19:37):
is spending an extra two hours a week
with my best friends or with my loved ones? How
much is that going to add to the ultimate currency, the currency
of happiness? Now, if there is a trade off, and there often is, because
I may need to stay extra hours at work to make
that extra money, then I can evaluate

(20:00):
what's contributing more to my happiness. But again, the question is
not how can I make more money once basic needs are
met, how can I become happier? And if the answer is work
harder, make more money, then by all means, put in
the extra effort. But if the answer is I'll get more, if I
spend more time with loved ones, or maybe get an extra hour of sleep,

(20:25):
or take another week's vacation once
every three months, or do work that
is meaningful to me, that is purposeful,
even though I make less money, well, then the choice is very
clear. Again, money in and of itself has no value.
It only has value in terms of what it

(20:46):
can attain for us. And one of the things that it can
attain potentially is life's ultimate currency.
I love this thinking and all of you have presented
that we do have to take time to think about how
work, money, how it influences our

(21:07):
identity, our priorities, and then
sacrifices in our choices. Based on what Tal just said,
I need to figure out how to make money while I'm sleeping.
Let's go to segment two. We're going to talk about this concept of what is
enough. Financial contentment is shaped by mindset,
values and habits. A positive money mindset fosters financial

(21:29):
stability. While comparison culture can lead to dissatisfaction
regardless of income, aligning spending with Personal
values, such as prioritizing experiences over material
goods, enhances satisfaction. Lifestyle
inflation, where spending rises with income, can be managed through
mindful budgeting and and automatic savings. Gratitude

(21:51):
plays a role by shifting focus from what is lacking to what is already present,
reducing materialism and improving financial decisions.
Contentment based financial planning prioritizes well being over wealth
accumulation, emphasizing control over finances rather
than external comparisons. Financial success is not solely
about net worth, but about aligning financial decisions with personal goals.

(22:15):
While financial freedom is a long term goal, achieving financial
contentment along the way leads to reduced stress and greater overall life
satisfaction.
Scott how can couples with mismatched spending habits
develop the shared sense of enough?

(22:38):
Yeah, it's very tricky and couples partners are often
mismatched in terms of their feelings on how to spend money.
You know, one kind of rule of thumb, and this is
imperfect, but one kind of rough suggestion I have is that
when there's a disagreement about a more materialistic
physical purchase, tend to defer

(23:01):
to the more tightwad partner. Just based on the
research on what kind of happiness
this brings us over the long run, maybe let the
tightwad tend to win those disagreements. Whereas if you're disagreeing
over an experience, particularly a shared
couple or family experience, I would tend to let the spendthrift

(23:23):
win those disagreements. We just know from a lot of research
that those kind of shared novel experiences can
be really important for couples and families. And not just the experience
itself, but the anticipation of it, the stories you have
afterwards, the memories you really get to learn about each other
when you're experiencing something novel. Much more so than when you're going through

(23:46):
kind of the day to day kind of routine experiences.
So yeah, that's kind of some
tiebreaker rules that I would suggest
couples to consider. I will clip that for my
wife because I'm the tightwad. She's the spendthrift. And
it's an ongoing experiment, but I think that we get the

(24:08):
best of both worlds, as you say. Yes, exactly.
Because we each approach it and sometimes I win, sometimes she wins.
Tal, how can individuals reframe this
concept of enough in a consumer driven world? We're just
inundated with marketing constantly.
Yeah. One of the ways to do it is by recognizing

(24:31):
the high cost that we pay for
what Nathaniel Brandon calls the nothing is enough
syndrome. Because what happens when nothing
is enough? We're never satisfied. And no matter how much
money we make or how many vacations we go on
or how amazing, objectively speaking, our life

(24:53):
is, will subjectively ruin it.
So a prerequisite for Happiness is, of
course, the mindset. And one element
of the happiness mindset is that
we don't need to have it all, we don't need to do it all, and
that good enough is good enough.

(25:15):
Now, related to that, and we saw this in the video,
is learning to appreciate. You know, appreciate is
my favorite word. Why? It has two meanings. The first meaning
of the word appreciate is to say thank you for something, not to take
it for granted. And that's of course a good thing. The second meaning of the
word appreciate, of course, is to grow in value. You know, money

(25:37):
appreciates in the bank. And the two
meanings of the word appreciate are connected
how? When you appreciate the good, the good
appreciates. When you appreciate the good in your life, when you don't take it
for granted, you actually have more of it, you learn to enjoy
it more, your levels of well being goes up significantly. So

(25:59):
appreciation is the antidote to the nothing is enough
syndrome. Beautiful sentiment.
Talya, can you speak to the neuroscience of
contentment and why at times it feels
elusive? I think, well,
contentment does feel elusive, especially as we're inundated, as you

(26:21):
said, with temptations. I want to go to an. Oh, I want to
talk about two things, and both of them are a little bit old school, but
they work. And one of them comes from my research on happiness.
What I found is that when people are
concerned over their financial security, their
happiness levels go down. So financial security is

(26:42):
a concept that's. It's not photogenic, it's not
sexy, it's not hip at all.
But it's vital when you're concerned about what's going to happen to me,
what's going to happen to me when I retire, will I be able to pay
my medical bills, etc. That is taking away from your
happiness in the moment. And I almost want to say

(27:05):
it should, because it should affect you. It should make you
think about, how am I managing myself? And sometimes you can't do
anything differently, but sometimes you can. And I think we live in
a generation and where many things
have become more expensive, prohibitively expensive.
Some people feel almost a desperation from their capability

(27:28):
to build a stable life. So instead they have a
consumer life and they enjoy the moment. But the fact is that
even if you're ignoring or pretend to
be ignoring the notion of financial security, it's there and it's
looming. So this is definitely something to take care of,
which will increase your happiness level and at least

(27:51):
decrease your unhappiness levels. So that's
like one thing, another Thing is, I want to share an experience.
I had. I had an amazing experience with my family at a
place just now. The place is called the Honeydew Retreat Center.
It's. It's basically a commune in Italy, in northern
Italy, in the middle of nowhere. And

(28:14):
it was fantastic. And it was fantastic because the
cost was very low. We were there with my daughter and her family, her
kids. It was wonderful. What made it wonderful
was the togetherness, the appreciation, exactly as
Tal said, just appreciating the time together,
the ability to move slower, having

(28:36):
basically no temptations. You know, we drove to the next
town and got a coffee, and that was. And another
coffee and a croissant and a gelato, and it was 10 and a half
euros. And we were all very happy. So
that was something that scaled down on comfort,
which was fine because we were

(28:59):
together and we weren't stressing. There was no
stress involved. It's not like when you're going and you can see the
dollar every second because you've spent so much money on the vacation.
You have to have fun, you have to enjoy it. You know, the whole, the
whole concept of work hard, play hard, I understand it, but I also
think it's detrimental because it means when you're working,

(29:21):
you don't have to enjoy yourself because then you'll enjoy yourself on vacation. But
no stress, right? No. No pressure to enjoy yourself immensely on
this tremendously expensive vacation. So I
think there's. There's a lot to be thought of in terms of what we. Again,
borrowing from Tal, the word appreciate. What do we appreciate? We
appreciate our time together. We appreciate just being able

(29:44):
to look at the chickens, go to the chicken coop and collect some
eggs. You know, just have fun, sit in the
hammock, read a book together, go to the pool together. Simple
things which are perfect. And you, you don't tire of them and
you don't need a lot of money for them. That's the thing. You can savor
them. You can enjoy them day after day after day

(30:06):
without needing to spend an
inordinate amount of money to have them. I'm saying, you know, it's.
I know. I realize it's. It's slightly old
school what I'm proposing, but I see how it's been working.
It's been working for us really well. I love the idea
of this retreat and I. I think

(30:29):
it's honeydew.community.
Yes. Yeah. People want to check it out.
Tal or Scott, have you embraced the idea of
taking a retreat to find and connect with your happiness.
Yeah. You know, one of the courses that we offer

(30:49):
is as part of our Masters in Happiness Studies
through the Happiness Studies Academy, is a Retreat
course, where throughout the course
they take time to meditate and
exercise and reflect on their nutrition and, and
their purpose. And to my mind, it's the

(31:12):
course that brings everything together. You know, it connects
theory and practice. Now, more generally,
the idea of retreat is the idea
of slowing down. There's a wonderful
work by Carl Honoré on the
slow movement. And then Tim Kasser and Ken Sheldon talk about

(31:34):
the idea of time affluence. This is the
feeling, the living, as
if we have enough time again, enough time to read, to
spend time with friends, and we're not always chasing after
our own tail. And time

(31:55):
affluence is as good a
predictor of happiness as
material wealth. And once we have enough
beyond basic needs, it's a better predictor of happiness than
material wealth. So this is something to think about, to slow
down. Because everything today is so fast. You know, even, you know, people are running

(32:16):
to yoga classes. You know, that's an oxymoron right
there. You know, people are eating
fast foods. You know. You know,
it's no longer, you know, taking time to make love. You know, it's
a quickie. And we don't take
time to enjoy, to savor and to appreciate

(32:39):
what's inside us and all around us. Slowing down is key.
Scott, did you have anything? Can I jump in? Oh, yeah, sure.
I, I, I love it. I want to connect this idea
through my own research that we did on with Daniel
Kahneman on the activities that foster the most

(33:00):
happiness. And we were surprised. So the three activities,
the three top activities. Are you ready for this, guys? Are religion,
spirituality, and hobbies. And when I thought of
why, I thought these are things that transcend you. They take you
above your common existence. They
take you somewhere else, they take your mind somewhere else. They take you to a

(33:23):
higher level of existence. And they don't have to cost
a lot of money. To the degree that you can incorporate those wonderful things that
Tal was talking about, the retreat, that you can incorporate them in your
own life. That's fantastic.
In any, in any, in any format. And by the way,
it doesn't need to cost money.

(33:48):
I love these thoughts. I, I am a bit of
a spendthrift, so my version of
slowing down might involve more
money than others. I remember my wife and I recently got
away from the kids, and we had this wonderful day of, like, walking around, and
there's a lot of shopping and fancy

(34:10):
restaurants, but it was quite slow and quite lovely.
So I however that people can
find some slowness or this change of pace whether
there's money involved or not. I'm all for it.
And I just will add that I love the idea of
connecting with others over a delicious meal,

(34:33):
but it doesn't have to be the most expensive meal. Like you can
go to a high-end fine dining restaurant, which is great, but you can also
find some little hole in the wall where I can take my son to New
York City and he just wants an gyro from the street vendor
and he's so happy. Andy,
even better. How about cooking together with your son?

(34:57):
Because you know, going back to basics, you know, in the past
cooking and the whole food process was
a relational experience.
So yes, you know, going to a restaurant and it can be a very modest
restaurant can yield a great deal of happiness
as can an afternoon cooking together or

(35:20):
even shopping for ingredients together and then cooking together and
eating together and cleaning the kitchen together.
Love it. So low tech. We will go old school
as Talya said. Let's go to segment three.
Financial behaviors directly impact emotional well being.
Budgeting provides a sense of control, reduces stress and

(35:42):
allows for intentional spending that aligns with personal goals.
Research shows that spending on experiences rather than material
goods leads to greater and more lasting satisfaction.
Financial security reduces anxiety, creating stability that
enables focus on relationships, personal growth and long
term planning. Mindful spending helps avoid impulsive

(36:05):
purchases by prioritizing needs over wants and aligning
financial decisions with values. Lifestyle inflation can
erode financial progress, making it essential to track expenses and
set aside savings before increasing discretionary spending.
Chronic financial stress is linked to anxiety, depression and physical
health issues, reinforcing the importance of financial planning.

(36:27):
Establishing healthy financial habits such as building an emergency
fund, managing debt wisely and tracking spending
supports both financial stability and overall well being.
Talya, can you share a story from your research

(36:48):
where someone's everyday financial behavior either boosted
or diminished their long term happiness?
Yeah. In the sense that when people spend money on something they love.
Absolutely love and enjoy and cherish and appreciate,
then that boosts the level of happiness for sure.

(37:10):
Like if you have a cake every day or that's, that's, you know, that kind
of conflicts with my medical decision making work.
But when you have a piece of chocolate that you appreciate and
you look forward to and you enjoy it, that's fantastic.
That's just great. I have
other findings from Adam Galinsky that I'm sure you guys are all

(37:32):
familiar with because he works on frustration,
he works on the detrimental effect that
being frustrated has on our financial habits. Because when you're
frustrated, when you feel you've been tramped on all day at work, you
will go out and you will seek to reassure,
reaffirm your self identity and your status. And you might

(37:54):
spend more on a fancy watch, on a fancy
meal, on anything that will strengthen,
bolster your, your sense of self.
So in a way, this is the
opposite of generating happiness through money.
It's something that should take us back to thinking about, why

(38:17):
am I doing this? Do I need this? Do I
need this super expensive watch? I'm just, you know, picking on a watch because
it's something that you can buy cheaper, you can buy incredibly expensive.
Do I need this? What am I looking for here? What's missing?
What am I missing? You know, am I, do I, do I need to tell
the time here? Or do I need to feel like I'm a really big

(38:39):
strong person and if I have this huge need,
where is it coming from? That's a good question to ask.
Ask the question and you'll find the answer is not in the watch. The answer
is somewhere completely different.
What is the why. Scott,

(39:00):
how do habits like budgeting or spending on
experiences versus things, how does that play into
emotional well-being? Well,
you know, it's, you know, the budgeting is
really interesting because we often think about budgeting
as a way to kind of reel in spending and kind of,

(39:23):
you know, exert some self control. But, you know,
I think for someone like a tightwad, a budget might be
helpful in kind of loosening them up. And the
research on this suggests that, you know, tightwads can't
justify in the moment a lot of
optional purchases. And so what they

(39:45):
benefit from is kind of earmarking some kind of
"fun money" in advance and having it there waiting for
them so they don't have to justify it in the moment. So
just like for spendthrift, the budgets can
help them control themselves. And that is true. The
tightwads can also benefit from this earmarking

(40:07):
process and deciding in advance. It's
kind of like, you know, you hear about save more tomorrow.
You know, the idea that we're willing to save if you can kind of push
it off into the future with tightwads, it's more like indulge more
tomorrow and they can kind of pre-commit to indulging later. They find
it hard in the moment though. Tal

(40:30):
which behavior shifts lead to the biggest leap in happiness
regardless of income? Yeah,
I often tell my students that if I were a therapist, which I'm
not. But if I were a therapist, the first question that I would
ask my clients, after asking for
their name, of course, is are you exercising? Are

(40:53):
you moving? Why? Because
we have research today. And again, you don't need research that. Because we know it
from personal experience that regular physical
exercise, as little as 30 minutes, three times a week
if you can, five times a week, even better,
is equivalent to our most powerful psychiatric

(41:14):
medication. In fact, it works in the same way. Releasing
norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, These are the feel good
chemicals in the brain. So being active, what
kind of exercise? Well, the one you enjoy most.
Because in addition to the physical
benefits, if you enjoy the exercise, whether it's dancing or

(41:36):
swimming or walking or watching TV on
your treadmill, whatever it is, as long as you
move it, move it.
And it goes back to Talya, the chocolate cake, so that,
you know, there's a cycle.
Anybody, ideally, what you want to find is,

(41:59):
you know, food that is delicious and healthy.
You know, that's the ideal food. Not that I'm against, you know, those chocolate
cakes, I mean, cakes. And indulging in
food as long as it is in moderation. What we
know from the healthiest places and happiest places in
the world, which Dan Buettner coined the "Blue Zones."

(42:23):
They eat just about everything, but in
moderation. And mostly they focus on
healthy and tasty diet. So of course, less
processed food, less refined sugar,
and a great deal of exercise. And the
number one predictor of happiness, quality time we spend with

(42:44):
people we care about and who care about us. So
relationships, whether it's family, whether it's friends, whether it's colleagues,
and for that we need time. We need to slow down.
Scott, you look like you wanted to say something. No,
I'm just thinking about research by like Cassie Mogilner (Holmes) and

(43:05):
Ashley Whillans and people like that. And you
know, it's about using money to buy time and
outsourcing some
less personally urgent things that maybe
don't require a lot of expertise but are kind of annoyances
that you can kind of perhaps hire other

(43:27):
people to help out with. You don't want to outsource your whole life, of course,
but there is a lot of interesting work out there nowadays
on, on buying time and, and how good that can be.
Let's move on. Oh, go ahead. There are two angles here.
One is reducing the bad. And this is really what I hear
when Scott is talking about reducing the bad. You know, something's a hassle

(43:51):
if someone can come and take my car to the garage and bring it back.
Yay. You know, I don't have to spend the morning
doing that. And that's fantastic. And you know, does it make me happy?
It wouldn't go so far as to say it makes me happy, but it reduces
the inconvenience and that's fantastic. And I'm
really happy with what Tal said about exercise and nutrition. I think

(44:13):
it's, it's crucial we live in a society where people are
burdened with anxiety and depression. And a really good friend of
mine had major depression and she was hospitalized. But before that,
I was shocked that no psychiatrist offered, told
her to exercise or to mind her nutrition.

(44:34):
I was really shocked and I kept saying it to her and she didn't do
it. Now she does it, she's out of the hospital and she exercises and she
thanks me every time. And I think
it's one of those things that we can do to take good care
of ourselves. You're never wrong when you're going for a swim,
when you're going for a walk, you don't need the money for this. When I

(44:54):
was a kid, I used to exercise in my room with a little tape I
would run in my, in my room. It's, it was
ridiculous, but it was cute. And I would exercise for an hour every time and
I was fit. You know, we, we have everything on YouTube. We can
walk, we can do whatever we want if we put our mind to
it. And we will be healthier. We will be pushing

(45:15):
depression away. And isn't that fantastic to be doing
that with our own hands and with our own routines and habits
that we can acquire, making sure we're taking good care of ourselves
mentally and physically? Absolutely. And
I didn't, I wasn't expecting to be inspired to go exercise
after this episode, but thank you for that. I will.

(45:38):
Let's move on to segment four.
Aligning finances with values enhances fulfillment by shifting the
focus from accumulation to meaningful impact. Ethical
spending supports businesses that prioritize sustainability, fair
labor and social responsibility. Reinforcing a sense
of purpose. Philanthropy strengthens social

(46:00):
connections and fosters gratitude by contributing to causes that
align with personal values. Responsible investing integrates
environmental, social and governance factors into financial
decisions, allowing individuals to generate returns while
supporting ethical businesses. Practical strategies for
aligning money with impact driven goals include creating a values based

(46:21):
budget, researching ethical companies and incorporating
charitable giving into financial planning. Focusing on purpose driven
wealth fosters a sense of integrity and satisfaction. Knowing
financial decisions reflect personal beliefs. Impact driven
goals contribute to long term, well Being by emphasizing financial
security alongside positive contributions to society,

(46:43):
creating a more intentional approach to managing wealth.
Tal, you've written about the importance of meaning in life.
How can people apply that same lens of meaning to how they manage
and spend their money? Yeah. So

(47:04):
basically the way it works is that again, beyond our
basic needs, once our basic needs are met,
there is much more benefit to our well being
through giving than through acquiring.
Why specifically? Because when we give, when we

(47:24):
contribute, when we help others, when we feel that we are of
use, that provides our life with a sense of
meaning and purpose. And
not only does that contribute to our happiness levels, it
also makes us more resilient. It also helps us not just
overcome, but grow from hardship.

(47:46):
So being kind, being generous, being benevolent,
being contributing to others
contributes a great deal to our own well being. You
know, Ben Zander, who's a world renowned
conductor, talks about how
when we wake up in the morning, we need to put the lens of

(48:10):
contribution rather than achievement.
Because when we think contribution, we are
happier and we achieve more, ultimately.
Talya, do you think purpose driven spending or investing, is
it more about external impact or the internal sense

(48:31):
of integrity that it gives people? I think it
goes back to one's own identity and the sense that one is
meaningful. My son just
happens to be the CEO of a company that is, it's an NGO
that is called Probably Good. And what it does is
help people increase their impact in their work and their

(48:54):
impact on the world. And I think that is highly significant.
So I think it's internal in the sense that you feel you've made a difference
in my work. I help companies develop
programs for better medical decision making among people. I'm
also a professor, so I'm in charge of students who are writing their thesis.

(49:14):
And I know how much satisfaction I derive from
helping them, from motivating them, from inspiring
them, from empowering them. It's incredible.
Had I not felt that I would say, oh my God, I'm reading the same
thesis for the 10th time and shoot me now. But that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying look at how much this student has improved. And

(49:36):
I'm so proud of myself because he's going to submit a really good thesis
where he would not have been able to do this without me. So I think
that makes a huge difference. It makes it worthwhile. When
you feel that what you're doing is worthwhile, you're doing it
and you're happy. It's just like being with your family and doing things for your
family. That you would not do for others. Why do you do that? You

(49:58):
do that because they matter to you and because you feel that what you're doing
is meaningful. I want to. I want to say one last thing here.
I mentioned my son, and when I mentioned my youngest daughter, the. The thing
that she told me and made me happiest was years ago when she said,
mom, you have so much work to do. How come you always have time for
me? And that was the biggest compliment she's

(50:20):
ever paid me because I always put my work aside
and I was with her, you know, I didn't get that far in life.
That's fine. I'm happy. I'm a full professor. I published a book
on my topic. You know, I'm happy with where
I am. If I missed out on writing two more papers
but spent more time with my daughter, I think in the grand scheme of

(50:44):
things, that was absolutely worth it. That's
beautiful. Especially since time is our most finite
resource, and it doesn't matter if you have a lot of money
or you don't have any money. We're all limited
on time. Scott, what do you think is the link between
generosity and financial discipline?

(51:07):
Well, I think
thinking about kids right now and
kind of how they pick up, you know, being
disciplined, being generous, you know, I think it's really
important for parents to keep in mind that

(51:28):
kids are much more likely to mimic what they see you do than
follow verbal advice. So
if you are not very kind of
generous or values oriented with your spending, but
you encourage your kids to be, it's likely
that they're just going to kind of copy what you do. And so it's

(51:50):
really important to be mindful that,
you know, you can't just kind of verbalize support for kind of good
causes or, you know, ethical
pursuits. You really have to kind of demonstrate that you're putting your money where
your mouth is, because that's what they're much more likely to
pick up on. We have to watch what we

(52:13):
do and what we say. Both. Yeah. But
especially what we do. If
nobody has anything else to add. I'd like to
add something. So, going back to what Thalia
talked about yesterday, about how we want to avoid something
that's bad and

(52:35):
generate something that is good. Back in
1959, one of the giants of the field of
organizational behavior, (Frederick) Herzberg
talked about the two factor theory. What's
the two factor theory? One factor is what he called hygiene
factors. The other factors
are motivational factors. Hygiene factors are the things that we

(52:59):
need to get rid of, that
create dissatisfaction. Now one of those
things is financial pressure. One of those things
is the thought, what am I going to do in retirement? Or how am I
going to, you know, survive the next
month? How am I going to get food on the table? You know, we need

(53:20):
to get rid of those. These are hygiene factors if we
are to even begin to think about happiness.
But that's not enough to be happy. The next stage is, okay,
so how do we take ourselves to the next level? How can we help
our kids become happier? And here comes the important
lesson. Then it's not extra money. Then

(53:44):
it's more connection to people. Then it's more
contribution. Then it's going out for that walk
in the afternoon and savoring the beauty that's
all around us. Then it's about spending time
with the people we care about. So yes, we need
those basics, the fundamentals, those hygiene factors

(54:06):
to ward away dissatisfaction and anxiety and fear.
And then we need to ask, okay, so how can I build on that? If
we're privileged enough to be at a stage where we can
have the basics.
Well said. Let's bring it home and go to the last
segment. A fulfilling financial life

(54:28):
prioritizes happiness alongside long term security.
Integrating positive psychology into financial planning means
focusing on experiences, relationships, personal growth and
purpose. A values based budget allocates resources
toward meaningful activities while maintaining financial stability.
Mindful spending ensures purchases align with personal priorities,

(54:50):
reducing impulsive decisions. Balancing present enjoyment
with future security involves saving strategically while making space for
experiences that bring lasting satisfaction. Financial
contentment grows through regular reflection, gratitude and resisting
comparison culture. A purpose driven financial plan also considers
legacy. Incorporating philanthropy and responsible investment to

(55:12):
align wealth with long term impact. Adjusting financial strategies
to match evolving priorities ensures that money supports both
present well being and future goals. A thoughtful approach
to finances fosters stability, contentment and a meaningful
life beyond financial accumulation.

(55:35):
Talya, earlier you talked about security
and happiness or contentment going down.
In my business as a financial advisor,
financial planner, we tend to
focus a lot on numbers. How do you
see people designing financial plans that actually support long term

(55:57):
happiness rather than just security?
I think attaining financial
security is crucial first of all
and you need to do it wisely. And you started the show with
inviting everyone to use your free financial

(56:19):
planning tool. And I think that's crucial because once you have that, you have the
peace of mind. It's exactly what Tal was talking about in terms of hygiene.
You reduce the stress when you're no longer worried about what am
I going to do in the future? That's one thing. Another thing is to
allot money, to allocate
money to things that will make you happy. It doesn't have to be a lot

(56:42):
of money at all. It really,
it connects the dots with everything that Scott said as well.
If you're a tightwad, you'll say, well, I have an X amount of
money. I can, wow, I can spend it. Yay. I can have the ice
cream and the sweater as well. And isn't that fun? And that's not too much,
because I already know that it's not too much.

(57:04):
I want to borrow a term from Tal, and you talk about
the happiness currency. We have money and we have
happiness, and we have other things that I think are, are valuable,
like relationships, like my status in,
in society. I happen to belong to a religious community,
so people like me there, people appreciate me there. I

(57:27):
help there. I sometimes give sermons there. That's
meaningful to me. It doesn't cost anything, but it's something that I
feel that I own and I have
regardless of how much money I have. That's the beauty of it.
Because when people come there, nobody knows how
much money they have or don't have at all. It

(57:51):
also, it doesn't matter. And if you show up wearing super fancy
clothes, it will be like, what's going on here? It just, it
doesn't belong here. It makes no difference. And I think you can
accumulate this kind of wealth
everywhere. I swim. I've always been a swimmer.
There's a lady I know, I've known for 25 years. We've been going to the

(58:11):
same pool. She always shows up with a smile, with a flower in her
hair. She's in her 80s. Everybody knows her, everybody
loves her. It's like, oh, she's here, you know, and she's like the
Queen of Sheba. Everybody's super excited. And she's
accumulated that, that sense of appreciation and care.
It's meaningful for her. It doesn't cost anything. What

(58:34):
it cost is her attention and her smile and
her dedication to forming these relationships which
matter. And if I spoke about frustration earlier, I think
she doesn't need to compensate for frustration by buying
anything, because she walks in and everybody welcomes her with a huge smile.
And that has got nothing to do with money and everything to

(58:57):
do with happiness. I love
it. Scott, what emotional cues
might indicate that someone's finances are misaligned
with their goals? Yeah,
well, I'm not sure everyone fully understands what their goals and
values are, so it's good to kind of talk that through and

(59:19):
explore it and try to pin that
down a little bit. But I, I find that, you know, I
do research with couples and, you know,
often our partners can kind of diagnose
our own goals better than we can. And

(59:40):
so kind of looking for kind of outside input.
Getting an outside view is really good, whether that's from a spouse or a
financial advisor or friends or it's just good
to kind of talk things through. You can convince yourself that you can't
afford something or you can't afford something that you can be really wrong. And so
it's good to kind of get these kind of outside

(01:00:03):
perspectives so you're just not kind of talking
yourself into something wrong. An excellent tool
just to promote communication since so often
we don't have money conversations either because
it's uncomfortable or we just don't make time for it. So
an excellent reminder, Tal, is there

(01:00:25):
a formula you've seen work to balance
joy now with security later?
Yeah, I don't know if there is
a formula. Actually. I wish there was a formula. And if you do find
one, please send it my way. But I think there are
guiding questions that we can use. And

(01:00:48):
one of the guiding questions is, you know, a question that hovered
over our conversation, which is, you know, what are my basic needs?
And you know, let me get that out of the way, but, you know, really
basic needs. You know, seven cars and, you know, 20
rooms for, you know, a four person family,
that's more than enough. You don't, you don't need that much. So

(01:01:11):
what's enough? But here is an exercise that I think can
help us. You know, Scott talked about the importance of talking to others,
which is critical. Of course, I would add to it also having
conversations with oneself,
but specific conversations. One of the exercises that I
recommend my students and exercise that I do too

(01:01:34):
is what I've come to call the spell of anonymity
exercise. So imagine that a spell of anonymity has been
cast on you from now on and for the rest of your life.
No one will know what you do. No one will know how much money
you make. No one will know what a difference what
you're doing is making. No one will know how

(01:01:55):
successful, prosperous, impactful
you are. You and you alone will
know what you do. In such a world,
what would you do? Now, this is an important
question because it takes away
the social aspect of

(01:02:19):
life, which, by the way, we don't want to take away. This is just a
thought experiment, but it helps us think about what's really important for
me. What kind of life would I want to lead if it
didn't matter what I look like to my friends or
what my appearance is, you know, how
great my accomplishments are, how much money I have, they

(01:02:41):
go this question goes to the essence of what's really
important, meaningful, purposeful and matters
to me. And doing this exercise periodically and I do it every
know couple of years or so, at least for me and I know for many
people, helps hone in on those
essential, crucial elements that make for a

(01:03:04):
happier life rather than a wealthier life.
Perhaps. I love it.
Any final thoughts from the panel?
I'm going to then leave it there. This
has been such a powerful conversation. So many

(01:03:24):
takeaways. I think one of my favorite things is that I love
this idea that when it comes to health
there are different pillars. And I think we covered all of them. We talked
about physical health, spiritual health,
mental health and financial health. And I
think that they are so interconnected and

(01:03:46):
they're also emotional. Whether it's how we spend or how we
save or even how we talk about money with loved ones,
understanding our emotions and how these different
pillars connect can really help us to make better choices
and live with more happiness and intention. So
here's my challenge for you, Inspired Moneymaker, this week.

(01:04:09):
Pay attention to one financial decision you make, whether it's big or small,
and notice the emotions behind it. Are you spending out
of joy, fear, habit, or something else? Just the
act of noticing can be the first step toward more
clarity and confidence with your money. If you found value in
today's conversation and episode, please share it with a friend who'd

(01:04:32):
appreciate these insights. And don't forget to subscribe so you
don't miss what's next. A few more things before we part ways.
Let's connect on LinkedIn. Find me by Searching
Advisor Andy Just want to
thank our Inspired Money team. Inspired Money is created and
produced by me and Bradley John Eaglefeather. Bradley is behind

(01:04:53):
the scenes during the live stream. He edited segments.
Chad Lawrence does our graphics, animations and editing.
And of course, last but not least, I want to give a big shout out
to our amazing guests. Go
follow their work and keep learning from the best. Tal
Ben-Shahar check out his YouTube channel. It's full of great

(01:05:15):
interviews. You can find it at
YouTube.com/@talbenshahar-HSA.
And explore more of his work at www.talbenshahar.com.
Scott Rick, don't miss his book Tightwads and

Spendthrifts (01:05:30):
Navigating the Money Minefield in Real Relationships
and dive deeper into his research at
www.scottrick.com. Talya Miron-Shatz...
learn more about her at www.talyamironshatz.com
and also check out www.CureMyWay.com that's a science based
consultancy firm in the health and well-being segment,

(01:05:52):
strongly driving behavior change in patients,
consumers and caregivers. I
want to thank Tal, Scott and Talya for sharing their wisdom today. Anybody
have anything in particular that you want to plug or share?
Just want to thank for bringing us together. And you

(01:06:14):
know, just having these conversations is so important
for well being because it raises our level of awareness
of those things that we can do to increase
life's ultimate currency. So thank you for that.
Well, thank, thank thank you all three for

(01:06:35):
joining me today. I want to thank all the viewers and
listeners for watching with us live today. Thanks for your comments
and thank you if you're watching on the replay or to the
podcast. Really appreciate you joining us today
and our panelists for inspiring us on a path of
happiness. Inspired Money returns next week on Wednesday.

(01:06:57):
That's August 27th at 1pm I'm not
sure of the topic yet. It's either going to be

"Unlocking the Power of Credit (01:07:04):
Building and Managing Credit for
Financial Success," or we're going to be talking about the

Future of Cryptocurrencies (01:07:12):
Exploring Blockchain and
Digital Assets." Both very timely and
interesting topics. It's going to depend on availability
of guest panelists, so stay tuned. Hope to see you
next week. Until next time, do something that scares
you because that's where the magic happens. Thank you everybody.

(01:07:34):
Bye bye.

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