September 29, 2023 • 50 mins
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For episode 41, we catch up with Dr. Ikpeme Neto, Founder/CEO of leading InsurTech/HealthTech WellaHealth on their work around solving the challenge of out-of-pocket expenditure for healthcare; a $7b market.
In this episode, we venture into the often challenging terrain of global healthcare delivery, tackling thorny issues like regulation & market accessibility, and delve into how the diaspora could potentially unlock access to quality, affordable healthcare in Nigeria. The discussions don't stop there; we also scrutinize the importance of fostering trust within the insurance industry, and the potential impact of broad-scale education campaigns on changing people's perceptions and understanding of insurance benefits.
Finally, we put the spotlight on the potential game-changer: embedding insurance into products. Dr. Neto enlightens us on the exciting challenges and opportunities that this concept brings, emphasizing the importance of understanding customer needs for creating bespoke insurance products. We also take a deep dive into how technology can be a game-changer in making insurance accessible, especially in emerging economies. Plus, you won't want to miss our conversation on the role of partnerships in making insurance more accessible and the potential of technology in creating new markets. Take a listen and discover how insurance can be transformed, one innovation at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Neto (00:00):
Hi, I'm Dr Neto, Founder and CEO of Wellah ealth.
We're working on affordableaccess to healthcare using
technology and alternative carepathways, micro insurance being
central to our work.
Delighted to be on the chat onInsurTech Business Series, where
we talk about some of the stuffwe're learning at Wellah ealth
and how we can improve insuranceadoption across Nigeria and
(00:23):
Africa.
Enjoy.
Folumy (00:32):
Welcome to the InsurTech Business Series podcast.
Damola (00:35):
I am Folumy and I am Damola and together we host the
most exciting podcast oninsurance and insurance related
topics in Africa.
Stay tuned, and we have a lot ofpeople who are interested in
insurance and we're joined byall of the pioneers within the
(01:00):
InsurTech/ Health Tech space.
We had a conversation with himbefore yes, in 2020.
It was also at our twoInsurTech, conferences and it's
been, you know, a supporter ofthe work and being a part of the
journey so far, really, and Imean we must say thank you, Dr.
(01:21):
Neto, welcome.
Dr. Neto (01:22):
Thank you very much.
Always a pleasure to be hereand they're well done.
They're amazing what you'vebeen doing over the last few
years.
Thank you so much.
Damola (01:27):
Thank you, thank you very much, thank you.
We really appreciate thesupport.
So, before we go into theconversation, how are you, how
has it been for you?
I know there have been a lot oftravels, a lot of things, but
personally, how has it been?
Dr. Neto (01:45):
Yes, it's been a very interesting time.
You know I feel good, a lot ofevents and activities and I tell
that the industry has come up alot more, you know.
So there's a lot more interest.
We've closed a number of youknow really good partnerships.
You know we've grown adoptionand insurance companies are
paying claims now.
So things are, things arelooking up, things are looking
(02:08):
up, yeah, and not without itschallenges, of course.
You know, I think you know, inNigeria, where we work,
macroeconomically, we've seen alot of challenges, but I think
even globally, over the last,you know, 12 months, you know
things have been difficult.
Inflation has gone up.
You know costs of doingbusiness along, you know so many
different dimensions areincreasing and so you know it's
(02:30):
been a challenging last coupleof years, but there's also been,
you know, many good highlights.
So, you know, excited to diginto some of them in this chat.
Damola (02:37):
Awesome, awesome.
Yeah, it was great.
I mentioned claims, but I knowthat this was a second time of
last conversation and even atour first conference in 2020,
right, you were just dragging usleft, right, center, you know,
around the claim.
But, yeah, I'm just like yousaid.
I mean, a lot of things haschanged, and definitely
technology innovation, you know,within the space, looking at
(03:00):
2022 date, I think it has.
It has facilitated a lot ofthese things and I know that you
play within the health spaceand speaking to specifically
around technology and innovation.
One of the things that you offeris telemedicine, right, and
telemedicine is not yetgenerally accepted, right,
(03:23):
they're still divided theopinions around it.
But I wanted to ask, right,because we see that you are
facilitating a lot of things howdo we run telemedicine and make
it work?
Right?
So I'm going to be dropping alot of stats today, right, and
(03:46):
for this, I was looking atstatistics earlier and it
mentioned that the revenue fordigital health is going to grow
about like 26%, up to a 140million US dollars by the end of
2023.
Telemedicine will play a hugerole in terms of getting health
care to more people, especiallyin Nigeria.
Well, how can we get it right?
(04:08):
How are you doing it?
Dr. Neto (04:09):
Yes, thanks, so you know really good question and I
get this telemedicine question afair bit because telemedicine
has almost been the post-artchild, you know, for you know,
health technology in the lastfew years and especially with
COVID coming into play andin-person interactions reducing
again, telemedicine, you know ithad a big opportunity and we
(04:32):
did see a lot of, you know,uptake in actual telemedicine
adoption.
But as the pandemic has wanedand, you know, is almost gone,
at least a lot of the responsesand interventions are in place.
What we've also seen is, youknow, the uptake in telemedicine
adoption globally.
This is, you know, has kind ofcome down to almost, you know,
(04:53):
approximately near pre-pandemiclevels and so, you know,
starting to have people, youknow, think again whether
telemedicine is actually solving, you know, the right problems
for people Looking locally inNigeria.
You know we do a fair bit oftelemedicine.
But my belief is that, you know,telemedicine is useful, but
useful within a suite ofservices, and so, you know,
(05:16):
providing telemedicinestandalone, I think you know has
its limitations.
I think that the way peoplethink about, you know,
healthcare access is not just,you know, talking to a doctor on
the phone or, you know, usingvideo chats.
I think they think of it as youknow, the symptoms, the
experience and the best routefor them to get that care.
And when they have a partnerthat is able to deliver care via
(05:37):
a number of channels, then youknow they're more likely to
adopt that partner, not reallythe channel.
Because, see, the first pointof call that we've seen a number
of, you know health insurancedoing this is your front door
can be a telemedicine service,you know.
So you have an app where youtalk to a doctor and then the
next step so that's interactionjust doesn't end there.
(05:57):
The next step is actuallysomething that is in person, so
it might be a medication pickup,it might be a lab test, it
might be, you know, for theassessment by a doctor, but that
whole, you know, end-to-endinteraction can happen via the
same.
You know whether it's partnerinterface is really important,
(06:17):
and so that's where I thinktelemedicine really, you know,
can play a role, is that it isone of a suite of services that
people have access to and thenyou can choose to adopt it and
they know there is a feel safewhere they can fall back on if
you know they don't get the fullservice on telemedicine.
So that's the way I think youknow.
Personally, my thinking isevolving around it and even the
industry is organizing aroundthat idea.
Folumy (06:39):
So I just we don't want to piggyback on what you just
said now, because I'm currentlyin the UK and one of the areas
that we've been working onrecently has been around
telemedicine, and this isbecause there's been like a
major strain on, like the healthsector for the UK.
Right, while I know that theacceptance level is in that
great in Nigeria, we haven'tgotten to the point where we are
(07:01):
able to optimize the use oftelemedicine.
What would you say are like thebiggest challenge in terms of
ensuring that people I mean atthe first point of core tend to
reach out using telemedicinebefore ultimately going to have
like a face-to-face visit orcheckup at the hospital, because
(07:22):
I want to believe that this, ina way, will sort of reduce the
strain on the infrastructure andalso in terms of access to
quality out-cancers.
Anyone and everyone who justreally wants to go to the
hospital first, that's the firstpoint of contact.
Whether it's a minor or majorsickness, everybody just wants
to have that face-to-faceconversation.
(07:43):
So how would you think peoplecan encourage the use of
telemedicine?
Dr. Neto (07:48):
So very true.
A lot of it is very habitual andif you look at health systems
that have been relativelysuccessful with telemedicine
adoption, you find that it'sembedded into how they do usual
and general practice.
So I'm aware that in the NHS inScotland, for instance, in many
of the services there they'vehad a steady uptake in
(08:11):
telemedicine adoption, evenpre-pandemic.
And when pandemic came they sawa lot of growth and that growth
is persistent and that'sbecause they were very much set
up to take advantage of that.
They had the infrastructure inplace, they had the awareness in
place, they had a way to referpeople to a telemedicine service
if they went into their usualgeneral practitioner and so it
(08:33):
was really embedded in how theythought about delivering care.
And I think as well in systemswhere you can't get into a GP
very easily, it's not so much inNigeria.
Nigeria is relatively easy towalk into a clinic and get an
appointment or see a doctor orsee somebody.
Anyway.
It's not that easy in the NHS.
(08:54):
I know a number of people thathave moved and when I talk to
them they complain, say how doyou see a doctor?
And they say I should come backin a week or two weeks time.
So it's very jarring for people.
So in a system like that,telemedicine provides a greater
alternative, because if you callto book an appointment, they
say okay, how about you use thistelemedicine service?
So you can see how that solvesthe problem and if they have
infrastructure in place, they'repromoting it.
(09:15):
You can see how that adoptionworks In our own market or in
our own jurisdiction, where youhave that relative ease of
access, where you can walk inand just go to a clinic as long
as you have money in your pocket.
I mean this is a caveat, ofcourse If you have money in your
pocket, you can walk into aclinic and relatively easily see
(09:36):
a general practitioner.
So in that instance then Ithink it's always going to be
challenging to get adoption,because you've got to then try
to convince the average clinicon the streets to turn people
away when they present and turnthem to a telemedicine service.
I mean you struggle to find anyclinic or doctor that will be
(09:58):
willing to do that, because if apatient in front of him that's
willing to pay, he's not goingto turn them away, whereas in
the alternate example in the UK,for instance, that's what they
do.
You can see how adoption isgoing to be different.
So where we have that relativeease of access and where there
isn't ease of access so usuallywhere you now have the cues are
when you go to public hospitals.
(10:19):
So when you go into aspecialist, for instance, or you
go to a public hospital whereit's cheaper, then you have
hordes and hordes of people justwaiting.
What is the incentive there forthe doctor or the practitioner
to then switch over totelemedicine?
I think it's very challenging,it's limiting, because you don't
(10:40):
have the physical interaction.
You have to wrangle with thedevices, the internet, the voice
, like the experiences in thatideal hordes of times.
It's just easier to just seeyour patients in clinic and you
now ask yourself what is thebusiness model as well for the
public institution, for chargingfor that?
(11:00):
So it can be very difficult andcomplex and adoption can be
challenging, and so I think thatin the near future anyway, you
will not see that significantadoption unless there's a huge
awareness and huge push and alot of people across the board
to make it happen.
But I wonder whether thateffort is better spent in other
things.
So I think, like I said, it'sgreat as part of the suite of
(11:26):
services, but I don't think itwill become the bulk or the
habits for people just becausewe still have that.
Access is still a person andpeople like it yeah.
Folumy (11:37):
I want to talk about the cross-functional activity not
cross-functional butcross-border.
To start with, what youmentioned about people having
access back home in Nigeria Imean, one of the major things
that are shown over a period oftime, or that I've seen over a
period of time, has been thefact that see, for instance,
people that left or that movedaway from the country and are
(12:03):
trying to then gain access backto maybe their previous doctors
and they would want to accesshealthcare.
But what I'm trying to push nowis in terms of a better use of
this platform and integratingthem with the current
infrastructure.
So this is not just for, maybe,the African continent of
Nigeria alone, but then lookingat it holistically, from
(12:25):
cross-border.
So somebody in the US who wantsto have access to maybe
somebody in Nigeria, to dropdown in Nigeria, those are some
of the sort of use case that I'mtrying to wrap my head around.
So do you think that those aresome of the possible adoption to
the medicine?
Because we're beginning to seethat as well.
(12:47):
But again, like you said, we'venot seen people fully embrace
and tell medicine.
Dr. Neto (12:55):
Yes, I think the challenge, the main challenge,
across border utilization is theregulatory bit, because the
fact that I'm licensed inNigeria doesn't mean I'm
licensed in the UK and viceversa.
So I think the licensing is aproblem.
And if you look at the US,where they have state licenses,
what the telemedicine companiesdo is they actually go and get
doctors in each state or theyhave doctors that have licenses
(13:18):
for each state, which adds alevel of complexity.
So I think the regulatory bitmakes that difficult and even if
you surmount that, there's justa market size and a market
access and awareness problemthat I think is very challenging
to overcome and will beexpensive to actually reach the
kind of customers or clientsthat you need to make it
(13:38):
worthwhile.
So again, on paper might makesense, but I think in practice
it will be very challenging.
Damola (13:43):
Looking at it from the diaspora point of view, right,
and how they can help tofacilitate access to quality and
affordable care, even to theirloved ones back home in Nigeria.
Right, this is one use casethat I think that is underused
(14:05):
or not very much exploited.
What are your thoughts aroundcreating solutions, around
people in the diaspora beingable to buy healthcare cover for
their loved ones here inNigeria and scaling that really?
Because, yes, we send moneyhome for different reasons,
chief of it to be healthcare ifthat's accurate or not right but
(14:28):
I think that's being able toprovide that direct healthcare
cover.
So Mama just needs to go intothe hospital, get treated and go
home.
You don't need to make anypayment.
That's one use case that I'msaying, but from your point of
view, from your experience, whatdo you think about this?
Dr. Neto (14:44):
The diaspora opportunity is becoming more and
more apparent to me and inNigeria in the first quarter of
the year there was a hugeproblem around cash availability
because the central bank triedits demonetization and we saw
people really struggle to getaccess to cash.
People had really poor healthexperiences and in fact there
(15:04):
were some deaths as a result ofa cash shortage.
And I was chatting to a numberof friends abroad and they were
talking of how there's no pointeven sending money to Nigeria
because when they send moneytheir families can't use it.
And they got me thinking thatactually what I helped is set up
to enable that family memberwho they need to access that
(15:30):
healthcare without the need forcash at the point of care.
So rather than having theirfamily member take that money
remittance out as cash and pay,say, doctor, buy drugs and
pharmacy, we can facilitate thatand we can take the payment
from the family member in thediaspora.
So that got us thinking and werecently launched a product
around that.
(15:51):
But then when I looked at thenumbers, it's actually pretty
impressive, depending on who youbelieve, of course, but the
estimates for the United Nationsthat Nigerians send about $23
billion home annually and I meanthat's as much as we.
That's like a second FDI earner.
We end this like anymore fromoil.
So, as it turns out, nigeria'sbiggest export is its people.
(16:14):
You know.
So a lot of money is sent back,and if you look at Nigeria
Barrier Statistics, you knowthey do this surveys and about
5% of remittances is spent onhealthcare, and so when you do
the numbers, it's about abillion dollars a year that is
spent on healthcare from peoplein the diaspora.
So that's a massive marketopportunity and it's apparent to
(16:37):
me that you know there thereneeds to be a concerted and
defined efforts to try andorganize some of that capital to
just improve access in.
Nigeria.
So that's what we're working on, so I'm a big believer that you
know what's.
The diaspora is actually a goodmarket to help them organize
the healthcare spending so thatpeople back home really get good
access to.
Damola (16:56):
Definitely interesting and I like the point that you
made around intentionallyorganizing that to make it work,
because, yes, I know that thereare a number of players trying
things in that space well, likehealth inclusive but how can we
have a conscious and dedicatedeffort towards making it work?
I want us to go back a bitright From our previous
(17:17):
conversation.
The goal for Wellah ealth is tosolve the challenge of
out-of-pocket expenditure.
This is estimated to be about$7 billion being spent.
How has that journey been forWellah ealth?
Dr. Neto (17:33):
Well, we don't have $7 billion yet and I don't know if
that's what you're asking.
I mean, I've always known thatit's a long-term journey,
because the biggest challengesand we knew this early on the
biggest challenges we face arearound education and trust, and
so the fact that the marketexists, so people are spending
money, doesn't mean they'llspend it with you, because,
(17:54):
first of all, in who are you?
Why would they give you money?
Because we know the Nigeriansociety is very low trust and
low integrity, unfortunately.
So trust is a huge barrier toovercome and it's expensive to
overcome.
Related to that, of course, iseducation Is educating people
that this out-of-pocketexpenditure that you have, there
are more efficient ways tospend it, and that also takes a
(18:17):
good bit of work Because, as weknow, the trust for an
understanding of insurance inNigeria isn't really that high.
So you have to then spend agood bit of time and effort in
educating people, and so I'vealways known that it would take
a bit of time and it also beexpensive.
What I think the industry hasn'tbeen great at and correct me if
(18:39):
I'm wrong I don't feel likethere's been a concerted effort
to build that trust andeducation across the board in
the market.
I think that insurers andinsured texts and everybody in
this space should come togetherand really work on improving the
general awareness and trust andthe idea that in a rising tide
lifts all boats.
We need to subscribe to that sothat we don't have all this
(19:02):
pockets of energies and what'sgoing on.
Yes, they can, but can wecollaborate a bit more on a high
level to really fund hugeawareness campaigns, huge
marketing campaigns that letspeople know and understand that
insurance is the way to go, notjust for health care but, I
think, across the board, buildsome of that trust and then from
(19:25):
there, when the market is a lotbigger, there's more awareness,
the individual companies cancome in and maybe start
competing.
But I think there's a lot ofwork still to be done to build
that education and trust.
Folumy (19:35):
Again, we've always had conversations around
communication on marketing andadvertising, the awareness that
you just talked about.
But from some of the marketsurveys that's been done and
some of the interactions thatwe've had with people that are
in the non-insurance sector,I've been the fact that there's
still that trust issue that theycan give their money to an
(19:57):
insurance person because theyfeel that when it's gone or that
they will not be able toutilize the money.
So do you think it's the pointof when it's now, or it should
be a point of actually changingthe direction of how we
communicate to the people thatwe're trying to reach?
Dr. Neto (20:12):
Well, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of work on the how
I think so, for instance.
This is why I've always spokenabout paying claims in industry,
because actually the best storyyou can tell about insurance is
to show people that it works.
We can talk from now until thecows come home.
But if we don't have lots ofpeople that are saying, yeah, so
I'm using insurance, so I wentto claim well, they paid me,
(20:35):
they didn't stress me out,that's the way, that's the proof
of their putting.
So I think that we haven't donea great job at talking about the
success of insurance inpeople's lives.
Life insurance, for instance.
I mean the difference thatmakes to somebody if a great
(20:58):
story will be it stay at homemore, for instance.
Or a housewife with three kids,her husband is well off, he's
providing for the family andeverything is going well, and he
dies suddenly.
We know how disastrous that canbe.
That can push your family intopoverty.
But if life insurance pays out,that makes a massive difference
(21:18):
.
Have you ever heard a storylike that on TV anywhere?
No, not exactly no, but I'mpretty sure it happens.
We're not all the time, but I'mpretty sure there's at least
one person in Nigeria that hashappened to, but nobody has put
that window on TV to tell herstory.
Damola (21:37):
I think there's a lot also to it, right, because that
widow, for example, doesn't wantto be out there, so that family
members will not come and sayshe now has money.
Dr. Neto (21:49):
Well, I mean, you won't say that you paid her 20
million dollars, you know no.
Folumy (21:53):
But then a lot of people are quite aggressive when it
comes to testimony.
I saw a post recently onTwitter saying that everybody
complains that they don't trustinsurance, but when they pick
limbs there's nobody in Nigeriathat would come forward to say
I've been picked limbs or I havemoney now, but before then you
just hear a lot of comments onit, say insurance companies are
(22:16):
dubious and when people finallyget their claims paid they then
go mute.
We don't hear these thingsanymore yeah.
Dr. Neto (22:24):
Yes, you're right and we've seen that ourselves, you
know.
But we actively ask people.
I wonder how my insuranceinsurance companies actively do
this.
I mean, the truth is it's agame of numbers.
If you ask everybody, oneperson will eventually agree.
That's just the way.
But if you don't ask, if youask one person and they say no,
I say we're not going to do it,then we're never going to know.
I think that, as a matter ofcourse, everybody gets it
(22:48):
claimed, paid out, should beasked would you be willing to do
this for us?
And honestly, you ask 100people, you get that.
Damola (22:56):
So I'm wondering can partnerships work?
And so partnerships in thesense that so, for example,
insurers are partnering withWellah ealth, right?
So Wellah ealth is tech focusedand they are customer facing
and they are able to get thesetestimonials, for example,
provide that kind of guidance topeople OK, this is what
insurance is, so this is whatthey can benefit from it, right?
(23:19):
Can partnerships work in thatlight?
Because maybe insurancecompanies are not equipped today
to do all of that, but maybeextending their abilities
through some of these kind ofpartnerships perhaps can be a
way.
haven't got any mean Iinsurance companies has come to
me and said please give us twoor three people that we can put
(23:40):
on the billboard that says paidmy claim, go and get insurance.
So we still have to do thatwork and then go and sell it to
the insurance companies.
That this is the.
I think the strategy has toalso be.
There has to be a belief inthat strategy from the insurance
company so that we're workingtogether, so that it's almost
like the marketing from theresays you know what?
This is a definite strategy.
(24:02):
We already have the.
We just need the people to puton them.
Then it makes life easy for mewhen I go to find the person, as
opposed to going to find thatperson to tell a story and then
I have to still pitch that storythen to insurance company.
You know like life is hard foreverybody.
Yes, so I think that insurancecompanies with big budgets
should have this as a marketingstrategy and then approach us,
(24:24):
their partners, to say let'sfind two or three people for us.
We can tell a good story, havea campaign, put it on billboards
, put it on TV, put it on radio.
Honestly, do that a couple oftimes.
And now we have a referencepoint because when we go to sell
, what I say is you don't seethat adverse, look at that
adverse Insurance?
They pay insurance points.
There's no reference points andpeople tell us this we have
(24:45):
hundreds of agents in the market.
People say I must see youaround.
We don't have a reference pointfor you.
I would like my agents to beable to say look outside the
market, see that billboard.
That's our partner that paidthat claim.
I can tell you it would be yourclaim.
So I think that you knowmarketing teams and insurance
companies should look at thisseriously and see.
You know how do we tell thosestories that make people believe
(25:07):
that these things happen?
Folumy (25:10):
Okay.
So for the marketing, I think,individually, the insurance
company or some insurancecompany tries to at least change
the narrative.
Well, you mentioned earlier inthis session was the fact that
we all need to come together anddo that, because it doesn't
seem like the weights one man iscarrying or one insurance
(25:30):
company is carrying is actuallychanging the narrative.
It just seems like people justknow that insurance companies
are saying, okay, they've comewith their adverts again.
But I mean, if it comes, youknow, from a wider range, like
with collaborative efforts fromdifferent parts of the insurance
industry, I think that thatwould, you know, sort of cost,
like a major impact.
Then you know, just one persontrying as much as possible to
(25:53):
maybe create as many adverts asthey can or marketing campaign
and trying to see how they can,you know, change the narrative.
But then, for instance, if itwas AXA months at is still just
going to be, axa months at isnot going to be.
That the industry has, you know,a whole sort of changes that
narrative in Nigeria, I want toassume, to be away from
communication.
(26:13):
In terms of claims payments, doyou also see a challenge with
the fact that people are notwilling to pay for insurance
because there's no flexibilityin payment.
I know that that's whatWellahealth does.
You know, by helping to unborndo products, say, for instance,
now we're starting with themalaria insurance, you know,
(26:34):
just making it affordable for,like, the average person on the
street.
Do you think that that has beeneffective in terms of
compression and, you know,bringing people into the
insurance space?
Dr. Neto (26:45):
And my thinking is evolving and it's not evolving
story.
We're still collecting data onthis.
I think that, to be honest, itis challenging to get people to
part with, you know, a regularpremium payment without getting
a service in return regularly,you know, and the market hasn't
evolved yet to that place.
And so I think that you know,unbornly unbornly is certainly a
(27:09):
what is certainly one way tostart a conversation on bonding
also in a way that they are ableto experience something outside
of, say, a claim, right.
So I mean the perfect insurergoal.
You know, episode is somethingthat is rare, but it's
significant, right.
So I mean that's why Lyla is agreat product, at least from the
insurance point of view, butyou only lose your life once, or
(27:32):
you know, whoever has that youknow product only loses their
life once, and you know it maynot happen for years, may not
happen at all, and we know thata lot of times, actually, the
most life products that we sellin the industry are either
mandatory products or embeddedproducts, you know.
So things like credit life orgroup life In voluntary life I
don't know that, I've not seenthe data, but I'd be very
(27:53):
surprised if it's up to.
You know 30% of premiums?
Do you know what it is at all?
Folumy (28:00):
I wouldn't necessarily say voluntary, I would say it's
a mixture because, again, whatwe do back home is it's a
mixture of investments involuntary life, so that people
don't come back and say I didnot die, I did not get my money
back.
So we don't try to do voluntarylife like expressively, it has
to come with something which islargely investment.
Dr. Neto (28:21):
Okay.
So making the point exactlythat the idea that I pay premium
and I didn't say so far theevent and I'm getting nothing
back, I know this is a scam, andso I think that's really where
you know the industry needs tofigure a way to serve people but
still, obviously, you know,make it a profitable venture for
the companies.
And so I think combining is oneway, so that people have kind
(28:44):
of smaller events thatpotentially they're more likely
to claim from.
But then going beyond that isthinking about how do we then
embed it into something else.
I think that the story aboutembedding is still evolving, but
I think that ultimately that'swhat we as industry have to
figure out is how to embedinsurance so that the service
(29:06):
it's embedded with becomes theregular experience, right, and
then the insurance is now theextra benefits.
Damola (29:15):
Yeah, absolutely I agree with you.
Embedded insurance, I thinkwould shape the future.
Dr. Neto (29:22):
It's too difficult to dummy.
Let me jump in.
It's not.
When we say embedded, I don'tlike.
The reason I'd like to reallysay and you know, pin my my flag
to embedded is that it's onething to embed is another thing
to be successful with an embed.
So the devil is in detail.
So not just embed it with acouple of embedding, but
thinking deeply about the valueof what it is that insurance
(29:44):
brings to that product.
Yeah, because we've done thisourselves and you know I have
learned is that it's one thingto just embed, and so if you buy
this and you get insurance, buthow does that play in the mind
of the customer?
Are they looking at the productas one, in that the experience
from this product is part of theexperience of insurance?
(30:06):
I don't know if that makessense.
I think that sometimes are veryremoved.
For example, if we embedinsurance with buying a bag of
flour, how do we get people tounderstand or feel that every
time they use their flour tobake bread, they are consuming
the insurance?
They're not consuming flour,they're not consuming bread,
(30:27):
they're consuming insurance.
So I think that's where theembedding has to get to, so that
it's now looks like actuallythe flour is part of the
insurance Not that I boughtflour and then insurance is
something on the side, but likea real and true deep embed.
I don't think that we asindustry have figured that out.
I think all of our embeds arevery superficial, at least in my
(30:48):
experience.
Damola (30:49):
I think it's a journey right.
I mean all of these thingsreally just pumped up post COVID
.
Honestly, the industry hasgrown.
The space has grown.
Embedded insurance we see a lotof people playing within that
space.
We've seen a lot ofpartnerships in short texts and
insurers doing thingsdifferently and seeing how
(31:10):
basically train things on thewall and seeing which sticks yes
.
So it's interesting and itwould be interesting to hear
about some of the partnershipsthat Wellah ealth has done in
the, at least since when we lastspoke.
I know that you've done a lotof partnerships.
There was Beema Lab as well.
(31:30):
Since then, I mean, just tellus.
Dr. Neto (31:33):
Yes.
So partnership we've done anumber, I think probably the
biggest one is one with StanbicBank.
So we've got a partnership withStanbic where when you sign on
to their mobile money wallet,you get health insurance and are
are able to upsell people onthat channel over at that
channel.
We also have a partnership withVerve, so with a Verve card you
(31:55):
can get insurance plan atsignificant discounts when you
buy using your Verve card.
So we have those two.
Those two are in really bigpartnerships that took a lot of
effort to put through and we'veseen decent uptake following
those partnerships, but still alot more work to be done.
I think that signing apartnership is one hard bit.
Getting a partnership to workis the second hard bit just as
(32:17):
hard, if not harder than theinitial partnership.
We've also had a couple ofpartnerships with MFIs.
I think MFI's provide a goodopportunity, so microfinance
banks provide a good opportunityto really get things going and
a few FinTech apps.
So we've got this partnershipwith Reprite, like a new bank
and savings app where when youopen an account, they actually
(32:40):
provide you with some of ourhealth benefits.
And then finally I think wejust launched this with KIPA.
Kipa is a FinTech thatprovides a merchant's tools and
financing for merchants, sopeople that buy fast moving
consumer goods.
These guys provide them withinvoicing, pos, those types of
(33:01):
services, and then we'veembedded some insurance into
them.
So we've got 3,000 of theirmerchants using our insurance
plans and we go to have way more.
I think some progress, butstill a lot more work to be done
.
Damola (33:15):
So for me, I'm looking at the SME space, the gig
workers space.
How do we get these guys to buyinsurance, not because we want
to sell insurance, but theyactually need insurance.
Folumy (33:29):
We do need it.
Damola (33:30):
Yes, so it was interesting when you talked
about that partnership.
What are your thoughts aroundwhat we need to do in order to
better serve this market?
Is it flexible, premium,flexible product or, you know,
really just designing somethingdifferent?
Because it's a news, it's adifferent space, different way
(33:51):
of life, different thinking,different mindset.
The pocket strength also is notthe same with the one that was
used to design insuranceproducts that exist today.
Dr. Neto (34:01):
Absolutely, and I think you've hit the nail on the
head, is that you know, forthese types of you know new
opportunities, it's really puton a you know customer discovery
and product hat and go into thetrenches and you know, work
with, you know the partners andthe actual people there to
figure out what are the risksthey are most worried about.
I think that's the key thing,and people people don't buy
(34:24):
insurance, right, they buy thatyou know risk protection, I
guess.
Is that okay?
Is it fire?
Is it you know theft?
Is it you know what?
Is it Lots of income.
You know what is it that I'mmost concerned about as a small,
you know merchant, smallbusiness owner and I think,
understanding that andunderstanding how they think
about it, understanding theirown cash flow, to also
(34:45):
understand collect payments anddesigning products and premium
collection around that process Idon't think that we've done the
work.
I mean I even say thisourselves.
You know we've obviously donesome partnerships there, but I
don't think that we have thebest product yet.
What we've been doing isshoehorning our current products
into that space.
But I think that the real youknow winners there will be
(35:08):
people that you know, really,you know, put on their t-shirt
and jeans, enter the market,sweat a bit with these guys,
understand what they're goingthrough and then come and design
very good products and speak tothem and then you'll see the
update will be significant.
I think that actually thebiggest opportunities around
this kind of small businessinsurance, because they
literally have no insurance.
You know, we work with 2,000small businesses and we've done
(35:31):
the service.
They have no insurance and theyhave significant risks.
You know, we've got people withinventory of, you know, two,
five, 10 million Naira andthere's zero insurance there.
You know.
Folumy (35:42):
I think it's a big opportunity.
Dr. Neto (35:43):
I don't know that anybody is really focused on it
yet.
Damola (35:47):
I think partnerships again I mean maybe because I
work within partnerships, I'm abig proponent for that right.
So I think that partnershipscan definitely extend the reach
of insurance companies.
Right and I think that's whyI'm talking with the likes of,
you know, Wellah ealth to reachmarkets that they've not been
able to, and beyond justproviding the current insurance
(36:09):
pros, how can they work withthose partners, for example, to
design new products?
Yes, I think it is.
Dr. Neto (36:16):
I think.
I think, Dammy, I think theproblem with the partnerships is
the partnerships arms-lengthare partnerships.
I mean you work in partnerships.
I think the way thatpartnerships really work is if
you enter the streets with me.
I think sometimes it's tooabstract because when we try to
have this conversation anddescribe things it doesn't
really hit home.
But you know, enter the streetswith me for a few days.
(36:38):
You need to click instantlyLike, okay, I see where you're
coming from and then you cantake that first hand learning to
go and you know, figure out howto put it within the.
You know the constraints ofcost, that you have an insurance
side.
But I think that you know it'snot enough to just, you know, do
zoom calls, haveair-conditioned in offices and
talk about partnerships.
I think the partnership is bros,come with me, make a new market
(37:00):
.
Let's see how this thing isworking.
You know, not to sell, but toreally understand, yes, and when
we understand, then we can nowbuild the right product for
people.
Folumy (37:09):
Okay, before we start talking about, you know,
building products.
Do you think that?
I mean, judging by the factthat you've said now that
partnership is practicing Do youthink that this might be?
I mean, before we put theproduct out, we might have to
evaluate the infrastructure, andyou know flexibility of having
(37:32):
to remove some of our businessstrategy to fit into the current
market changes.
I mean, technology is changing,people are, consumer behavior
is changing.
You know some of the marketfindings that you currently have
as well.
I'm sure they were really notthere before, and then you know
because it had evolved over time, but then we still have
(37:52):
infrastructures in place thatare still catering to the
traditional, previous ways ofinsurance.
Do you think that this might belike the first aspect to review
before we then start to designproducts that would then that
would be best suited for thismarket segment?
Dr. Neto (38:08):
So I think it's a bit of chicken and egg.
You know, I think that it's hardto know you know how you're
redesigning your existingsystems If you don't go out and
you know, find out what you needto redesign it for.
But then again, you know, ifyou don't redesign, maybe you
can't really go out and do itthe right way.
So I think on a level there's abit of a chicken and egg
problem there.
But I would say that you know,going out and figuring out what
(38:29):
it is that's out there isprobably the way to go to inform
the changes we need to make,because I think there are a lot
of changes we need to make.
I think you know insurance andI've said this number of times
has been very much built inNigeria for the big corporate.
You know production, whereinsurance companies have made
their money, and so it's a verydifferent way of thinking when
you're trying to do kind ofsmall businesses, you know
(38:49):
because which are big corporate.
You know you wear a suit andtie, get into a condition with
small businesses.
You wear a T-shirt and jeansthat you go and sweat in the
markets.
So the people you hired for theAC and suits is not the same
people that you hire for youknow sweat on the streets and
also it takes a bit of time.
You know with one.
You know big business you close,you know it's what's?
100 million Naira in premium.
You know everybody's happy, thebonuses are good.
(39:11):
But with the small business,you know to get 100 million
Naira in premium, you know cantake a bit of work but once you
get it right that grows almostindefinitely to, you know,
billions of Naira in premium.
So I think again it's astrategy thing.
Like we said, the marketing andthe storytelling.
It has to be strategy.
But also with this product andmarket development there also
has to be strategy from the topthat says we believe that the
(39:32):
future is in small businesses.
We know that's where theopportunity and market is.
We're going to do the work andmake the investment to figure it
out.
You know long term.
So I think when the insurancecompanies have that as central
to their strategies, thenperhaps we'll start investing
long term in the work that needsto be done to get us to
improving their systems formaking this work.
Damola (39:51):
Absolutely.
What does the future hold forWellah ealth?
And then also, like all theinsurance, innovation and
technology space?
Dr. Neto (39:59):
I'm very bullish, I'm an entrepreneur, so by
definition I'm very.
You know, if I was optimistic Iwouldn't start a business.
So, I'm very bullish.
I think that the only way is up, and that's the advantage, I
guess, of being in a marketwhere the penetration is low.
It means that we can only getbetter and I think that the
ingredients are coming intoplace.
What I just wish is thereshould be a bit more
(40:21):
acceleration, a bit moreunderstanding that we are early
days and so you know things willnot be right.
You know some of the numberswill not make sense, Some of the
things will not add up, butbelieving that if we are to make
the progress we need to make,we need to be patient and, you
know, invest.
So I'm very optimistic.
Like I said, I think that lotsof opportunity, there's more
capital coming in, there's agood bit of startups around.
(40:43):
The enterprises as well areopen to partnerships.
You know, we've seen, like Isaid, it's an act.
So I have done some thingstogether.
We've got something withStanbic, I think MTN coming
into the space.
So there's a lot going on andI'm very excited to have some
more of this actuallycrystallizing to real progress.
Damola (41:02):
Yeah, and you want Wellah ealth to be in the middle
of it.
Dr. Neto (41:06):
Oh, absolutely as far as the health care goes yes, I
think we're not too true to ourhome, but we're the best
partners as far as deliveryhealth care services really
affordably goes.
We work with over 30 partners.
We manage tens of thousands ofpatients every month.
We have a lot of experience.
We've built really greattechnology, you know.
So, I think, by the partner ofchoice as far as health care
goes.
So use Wellah ealth.
Folumy (41:30):
I think before we go to questions that we need to ask,
you know that there's a big liketo assume that there's
currently technology disruption.
We just wanted to know whatyour advice would be, especially
now.
It hasn't really beendisruptive in the African
continent, but what we did seeabout using that to the
advantage of the majority of thehealth sector.
(41:52):
So I'm going to start your back.
Dr. Neto (41:54):
Yes, so great question .
And so, first of all, I don'tuse the word disruption actually
, when it comes to, you know,africa, and the reason is, is
that there's nothing to disrupt.
What's the batting with?
And if you look at the originalof that, you know idea of
disruption.
Professor Christensen, heactually wrote a book focused on
your markets, like Africa, andit talks of non consumption,
(42:14):
right, market creation.
Yeah, so actually that is whattechnology affords us in
emerging economies that reallyhaven't been participating in
markets like this is.
With technology, it reduces thebarrier and cost for creating
markets and for actually helpingpeople pull in products into
their lives.
(42:35):
And so now, for instance, youknow something like over 90% of
our customers never hadinsurance before, and in fact,
you know in that book on marketcreation that is the prosperity
paradox, micro and sure is a isa specific example they use.
And on how you know a marketcreating innovation using
technology, can you know, enablepeople to pull in products that
(42:57):
make a difference in theirlives.
So I think the model is reallyusing technology to create
markets and using businessmodels based on technology to
create new markets that canreally, you know, revolutionize
access.
Damola (43:10):
Protection gap across the world.
I was looking at one of theposts from Simon Torrance
recently and he puts that atabout $7 trillion and if you
look at Africa, insurancepenetration is about 3%.
In Nigeria is less than 1%,maybe around 0.5% or 0.4%,
whoever is counting.
So, yes, the opportunities thatthe gap is there.
(43:31):
How are we using technologyinnovation to remodel our
products and how we viewcustomers and better serve them?
It's an interesting time.
We're super excited aboutwhat's happening within the
space.
Yes, it's early days.
We are growing, but again, theidea around our podcast, our
webinars, conferences as well,is how can we learn from others
(43:55):
and also take those learnings tobuild what we are building so
we don't repeat their mistakes?
Also, understanding that theAfrican market is peculiar.
It's different.
I know that recently you openedup shop in Akwa Ibom .
What's happening there?
What do we be expecting next?
Dr. Neto (44:13):
Yeah, so that is two-fold strategy wise.
One is working with stategovernments.
So we wanted to work with aprogressive state government
that's looking at healthinsurance, in particular,
adoption, and you know Nigeriarecently passed it's probably a
year now so it's no longer thatrecent but a year ago Nigeria
passed the new Health InsuranceAct and that act put state
(44:34):
health insurance schemes at thecore of how health is going to
be delivered, and so that officein Akwa Ibom state helps us to
start to do state healthinsurance work across the south
side and even the south side.
That was the strategy there.
So you see us a lot more workwith the government.
And the second thing was reallyactually helping us to grow out
(44:55):
our customer service operations.
So we found that growing a lotof people and, as you know,
Abuja and Lagos can be quiteexpensive, so to keep our costs
low, we thought that would be agreat second office location for
us.
So those are the two thingsthat led us to do that and,
(45:17):
surprisingly, actually part ofthe reason why we chose a quiet
coincidentally I'm from there,but that's not the reason
Coincidentally Coincidentally.
But the reason is a Akwa Ibom isa more successful state.
Wow, okay, yes, you know we hadquite a lot of interest there
and, you know, did a lot of goodnumbers in Akwa Ibom state and
we had some people there as wellthat we could build our office
(45:39):
on top of.
So that's the reason that wewent there in the end.
Damola (45:43):
Okay, I mean interesting .
You said that because a lot ofpeople are targeting Lagos,
lagos, maybe you're going to abad number, but in the West,
right, you say you're doingstuff at a quiet bomb Because,
again, nigeria is huge, right,the opportunity is Nigerian, not
Lagos.
Perhaps, maybe it is the waythat we are looking at it as
(46:04):
well, because those in the South, in the North, they actually
need these services.
Perhaps we are not so in termsof the success in that space, is
it a thing of culture?
Is it language?
Dr. Neto (46:18):
So yeah, very good point.
I think there's a number ofreasons.
I mean culture, of course,being one of them.
For instance, in the North youstruggle to sell insurance if
you go to the North because ofthe culture there.
But I think that very simply,you know, without kind of doing
too much of an analysis, it'sactually cheaper Because, if you
think about it, the noise inLagos for you to cut through
(46:39):
that noise, for anybody to payattention to you, it's so
challenging.
If I want to buy a spot onradio, you can imagine what
you'd cost me.
If I want to buy a billboardyou know it's significant again
Whereas I can go to a smallerstate, somewhere in the South,
southeast, even in the NorthCentral, and buy out all the
(46:59):
billboards in the town for lessthan one billboard in Lagos.
And I'm doing low-cost plans.
So why would I go, spend a lotof money buying ads or getting a
share of money in Lagos andAbuja when I can go for a
fraction of the cost to get ashare of money in a smaller
state and still do quite well?
(47:20):
So, especially like a smallcompany like ours, starting off
with something that's a bitchallenging, the smaller states
can be a good ground, betterplace for us to experiment and
then, when we get successful, wecan now come to Lagos and start
to fight with big amountsInteresting.
Folumy (47:35):
Thank you for your good work and also for coming on our
podcast.
I mean it's been an interestingconversation, especially around
insurance penetration,telemedicine, as well as the
infrastructures that we need toput in place to ensure that
we're able to get this productto people.
So I want to say a very bigthank you and, before we go off,
(47:56):
I would like to ask, on behalfof our audience, how they can
reach out to you.
All right, thanks.
Dr. Neto (48:02):
Always a pleasure jumping on a conversation.
So LinkedIn, I think, is agreat way to look at the updates
on whether I help any officialstuff, and then for the kind of
more unofficial, informal andtroublesome side, you can follow
me on Twitter, so onI'm Doc neto, Doc NETO , but
here on LinkedIn Ikpeme Neto ,so depends on the flavor you
(48:24):
want, you choose the channel.
Thank you .
Damola (48:29):
Awesome I mean thank you very much.
It's been a pleasure speakingwith you, Really appreciate you
coming on and sharing as much asyou did.
Dr. Neto (48:35):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, it was apleasure .
Damola (48:40):
And I hope you did enjoy that conversation.
I hope you had an interestingone.
Do ensure that you continue tolisten to our podcast and share
as well with your colleagues andfriends future episodes and
even previous ones, on Apple,Spotify, Google Podcasts, on
every platform that you get yourpodcast Right.
Folumy (49:01):
And also don't forget to join the conversation on all of
our social media platforms.
We might have comments, reviews, as well as questions.
Please do share on our LinkedInpage or on our Twitter page, as
well as remember to follow us.
Hi, I'm Dr Neto, Founder and CEO of Wellah ealth.
We're working on affordableaccess to healthcare using
technology and alternative carepathways, micro insurance being
central to our work.
Delighted to be on the chat onInsurTech Business Series, where
we talk about some of the stuffwe're learning at Wellah ealth
and how we can improve insuranceadoption across Nigeria and
(00:23):
Africa.
Enjoy.
Folumy (00:32):
Welcome to the InsurTech Business Series podcast.
Damola (00:35):
I am Folumy and I am Damola and together we host the
most exciting podcast oninsurance and insurance related
topics in Africa.
Stay tuned, and we have a lot ofpeople who are interested in
insurance and we're joined byall of the pioneers within the
(01:00):
InsurTech/ Health Tech space.
We had a conversation with himbefore yes, in 2020.
It was also at our twoInsurTech, conferences and it's
been, you know, a supporter ofthe work and being a part of the
journey so far, really, and Imean we must say thank you, Dr.
(01:21):
Neto, welcome.
Dr. Neto (01:22):
Thank you very much.
Always a pleasure to be hereand they're well done.
They're amazing what you'vebeen doing over the last few
years.
Thank you so much.
Damola (01:27):
Thank you, thank you very much, thank you.
We really appreciate thesupport.
So, before we go into theconversation, how are you, how
has it been for you?
I know there have been a lot oftravels, a lot of things, but
personally, how has it been?
Dr. Neto (01:45):
Yes, it's been a very interesting time.
You know I feel good, a lot ofevents and activities and I tell
that the industry has come up alot more, you know.
So there's a lot more interest.
We've closed a number of youknow really good partnerships.
You know we've grown adoptionand insurance companies are
paying claims now.
So things are, things arelooking up, things are looking
(02:08):
up, yeah, and not without itschallenges, of course.
You know, I think you know, inNigeria, where we work,
macroeconomically, we've seen alot of challenges, but I think
even globally, over the last,you know, 12 months, you know
things have been difficult.
Inflation has gone up.
You know costs of doingbusiness along, you know so many
different dimensions areincreasing and so you know it's
(02:30):
been a challenging last coupleof years, but there's also been,
you know, many good highlights.
So, you know, excited to diginto some of them in this chat.
Damola (02:37):
Awesome, awesome.
Yeah, it was great.
I mentioned claims, but I knowthat this was a second time of
last conversation and even atour first conference in 2020,
right, you were just dragging usleft, right, center, you know,
around the claim.
But, yeah, I'm just like yousaid.
I mean, a lot of things haschanged, and definitely
technology innovation, you know,within the space, looking at
(03:00):
2022 date, I think it has.
It has facilitated a lot ofthese things and I know that you
play within the health spaceand speaking to specifically
around technology and innovation.
One of the things that you offeris telemedicine, right, and
telemedicine is not yetgenerally accepted, right,
(03:23):
they're still divided theopinions around it.
But I wanted to ask, right,because we see that you are
facilitating a lot of things howdo we run telemedicine and make
it work?
Right?
So I'm going to be dropping alot of stats today, right, and
(03:46):
for this, I was looking atstatistics earlier and it
mentioned that the revenue fordigital health is going to grow
about like 26%, up to a 140million US dollars by the end of
2023.
Telemedicine will play a hugerole in terms of getting health
care to more people, especiallyin Nigeria.
Well, how can we get it right?
(04:08):
How are you doing it?
Dr. Neto (04:09):
Yes, thanks, so you know really good question and I
get this telemedicine question afair bit because telemedicine
has almost been the post-artchild, you know, for you know,
health technology in the lastfew years and especially with
COVID coming into play andin-person interactions reducing
again, telemedicine, you know ithad a big opportunity and we
(04:32):
did see a lot of, you know,uptake in actual telemedicine
adoption.
But as the pandemic has wanedand, you know, is almost gone,
at least a lot of the responsesand interventions are in place.
What we've also seen is, youknow, the uptake in telemedicine
adoption globally.
This is, you know, has kind ofcome down to almost, you know,
(04:53):
approximately near pre-pandemiclevels and so, you know,
starting to have people, youknow, think again whether
telemedicine is actually solving, you know, the right problems
for people Looking locally inNigeria.
You know we do a fair bit oftelemedicine.
But my belief is that, you know,telemedicine is useful, but
useful within a suite ofservices, and so, you know,
(05:16):
providing telemedicinestandalone, I think you know has
its limitations.
I think that the way peoplethink about, you know,
healthcare access is not just,you know, talking to a doctor on
the phone or, you know, usingvideo chats.
I think they think of it as youknow, the symptoms, the
experience and the best routefor them to get that care.
And when they have a partnerthat is able to deliver care via
(05:37):
a number of channels, then youknow they're more likely to
adopt that partner, not reallythe channel.
Because, see, the first pointof call that we've seen a number
of, you know health insurancedoing this is your front door
can be a telemedicine service,you know.
So you have an app where youtalk to a doctor and then the
next step so that's interactionjust doesn't end there.
(05:57):
The next step is actuallysomething that is in person, so
it might be a medication pickup,it might be a lab test, it
might be, you know, for theassessment by a doctor, but that
whole, you know, end-to-endinteraction can happen via the
same.
You know whether it's partnerinterface is really important,
(06:17):
and so that's where I thinktelemedicine really, you know,
can play a role, is that it isone of a suite of services that
people have access to and thenyou can choose to adopt it and
they know there is a feel safewhere they can fall back on if
you know they don't get the fullservice on telemedicine.
So that's the way I think youknow.
Personally, my thinking isevolving around it and even the
industry is organizing aroundthat idea.
Folumy (06:39):
So I just we don't want to piggyback on what you just
said now, because I'm currentlyin the UK and one of the areas
that we've been working onrecently has been around
telemedicine, and this isbecause there's been like a
major strain on, like the healthsector for the UK.
Right, while I know that theacceptance level is in that
great in Nigeria, we haven'tgotten to the point where we are
(07:01):
able to optimize the use oftelemedicine.
What would you say are like thebiggest challenge in terms of
ensuring that people I mean atthe first point of core tend to
reach out using telemedicinebefore ultimately going to have
like a face-to-face visit orcheckup at the hospital, because
(07:22):
I want to believe that this, ina way, will sort of reduce the
strain on the infrastructure andalso in terms of access to
quality out-cancers.
Anyone and everyone who justreally wants to go to the
hospital first, that's the firstpoint of contact.
Whether it's a minor or majorsickness, everybody just wants
to have that face-to-faceconversation.
(07:43):
So how would you think peoplecan encourage the use of
telemedicine?
Dr. Neto (07:48):
So very true.
A lot of it is very habitual andif you look at health systems
that have been relativelysuccessful with telemedicine
adoption, you find that it'sembedded into how they do usual
and general practice.
So I'm aware that in the NHS inScotland, for instance, in many
of the services there they'vehad a steady uptake in
(08:11):
telemedicine adoption, evenpre-pandemic.
And when pandemic came they sawa lot of growth and that growth
is persistent and that'sbecause they were very much set
up to take advantage of that.
They had the infrastructure inplace, they had the awareness in
place, they had a way to referpeople to a telemedicine service
if they went into their usualgeneral practitioner and so it
(08:33):
was really embedded in how theythought about delivering care.
And I think as well in systemswhere you can't get into a GP
very easily, it's not so much inNigeria.
Nigeria is relatively easy towalk into a clinic and get an
appointment or see a doctor orsee somebody.
Anyway.
It's not that easy in the NHS.
(08:54):
I know a number of people thathave moved and when I talk to
them they complain, say how doyou see a doctor?
And they say I should come backin a week or two weeks time.
So it's very jarring for people.
So in a system like that,telemedicine provides a greater
alternative, because if you callto book an appointment, they
say okay, how about you use thistelemedicine service?
So you can see how that solvesthe problem and if they have
infrastructure in place, they'repromoting it.
(09:15):
You can see how that adoptionworks In our own market or in
our own jurisdiction, where youhave that relative ease of
access, where you can walk inand just go to a clinic as long
as you have money in your pocket.
I mean this is a caveat, ofcourse If you have money in your
pocket, you can walk into aclinic and relatively easily see
(09:36):
a general practitioner.
So in that instance then Ithink it's always going to be
challenging to get adoption,because you've got to then try
to convince the average clinicon the streets to turn people
away when they present and turnthem to a telemedicine service.
I mean you struggle to find anyclinic or doctor that will be
(09:58):
willing to do that, because if apatient in front of him that's
willing to pay, he's not goingto turn them away, whereas in
the alternate example in the UK,for instance, that's what they
do.
You can see how adoption isgoing to be different.
So where we have that relativeease of access and where there
isn't ease of access so usuallywhere you now have the cues are
when you go to public hospitals.
(10:19):
So when you go into aspecialist, for instance, or you
go to a public hospital whereit's cheaper, then you have
hordes and hordes of people justwaiting.
What is the incentive there forthe doctor or the practitioner
to then switch over totelemedicine?
I think it's very challenging,it's limiting, because you don't
(10:40):
have the physical interaction.
You have to wrangle with thedevices, the internet, the voice
, like the experiences in thatideal hordes of times.
It's just easier to just seeyour patients in clinic and you
now ask yourself what is thebusiness model as well for the
public institution, for chargingfor that?
(11:00):
So it can be very difficult andcomplex and adoption can be
challenging, and so I think thatin the near future anyway, you
will not see that significantadoption unless there's a huge
awareness and huge push and alot of people across the board
to make it happen.
But I wonder whether thateffort is better spent in other
things.
So I think, like I said, it'sgreat as part of the suite of
(11:26):
services, but I don't think itwill become the bulk or the
habits for people just becausewe still have that.
Access is still a person andpeople like it yeah.
Folumy (11:37):
I want to talk about the cross-functional activity not
cross-functional butcross-border.
To start with, what youmentioned about people having
access back home in Nigeria Imean, one of the major things
that are shown over a period oftime, or that I've seen over a
period of time, has been thefact that see, for instance,
people that left or that movedaway from the country and are
(12:03):
trying to then gain access backto maybe their previous doctors
and they would want to accesshealthcare.
But what I'm trying to push nowis in terms of a better use of
this platform and integratingthem with the current
infrastructure.
So this is not just for, maybe,the African continent of
Nigeria alone, but then lookingat it holistically, from
(12:25):
cross-border.
So somebody in the US who wantsto have access to maybe
somebody in Nigeria, to dropdown in Nigeria, those are some
of the sort of use case that I'mtrying to wrap my head around.
So do you think that those aresome of the possible adoption to
the medicine?
Because we're beginning to seethat as well.
(12:47):
But again, like you said, we'venot seen people fully embrace
and tell medicine.
Dr. Neto (12:55):
Yes, I think the challenge, the main challenge,
across border utilization is theregulatory bit, because the
fact that I'm licensed inNigeria doesn't mean I'm
licensed in the UK and viceversa.
So I think the licensing is aproblem.
And if you look at the US,where they have state licenses,
what the telemedicine companiesdo is they actually go and get
doctors in each state or theyhave doctors that have licenses
(13:18):
for each state, which adds alevel of complexity.
So I think the regulatory bitmakes that difficult and even if
you surmount that, there's justa market size and a market
access and awareness problemthat I think is very challenging
to overcome and will beexpensive to actually reach the
kind of customers or clientsthat you need to make it
(13:38):
worthwhile.
So again, on paper might makesense, but I think in practice
it will be very challenging.
Damola (13:43):
Looking at it from the diaspora point of view, right,
and how they can help tofacilitate access to quality and
affordable care, even to theirloved ones back home in Nigeria.
Right, this is one use casethat I think that is underused
(14:05):
or not very much exploited.
What are your thoughts aroundcreating solutions, around
people in the diaspora beingable to buy healthcare cover for
their loved ones here inNigeria and scaling that really?
Because, yes, we send moneyhome for different reasons,
chief of it to be healthcare ifthat's accurate or not right but
(14:28):
I think that's being able toprovide that direct healthcare
cover.
So Mama just needs to go intothe hospital, get treated and go
home.
You don't need to make anypayment.
That's one use case that I'msaying, but from your point of
view, from your experience, whatdo you think about this?
Dr. Neto (14:44):
The diaspora opportunity is becoming more and
more apparent to me and inNigeria in the first quarter of
the year there was a hugeproblem around cash availability
because the central bank triedits demonetization and we saw
people really struggle to getaccess to cash.
People had really poor healthexperiences and in fact there
(15:04):
were some deaths as a result ofa cash shortage.
And I was chatting to a numberof friends abroad and they were
talking of how there's no pointeven sending money to Nigeria
because when they send moneytheir families can't use it.
And they got me thinking thatactually what I helped is set up
to enable that family memberwho they need to access that
(15:30):
healthcare without the need forcash at the point of care.
So rather than having theirfamily member take that money
remittance out as cash and pay,say, doctor, buy drugs and
pharmacy, we can facilitate thatand we can take the payment
from the family member in thediaspora.
So that got us thinking and werecently launched a product
around that.
(15:51):
But then when I looked at thenumbers, it's actually pretty
impressive, depending on who youbelieve, of course, but the
estimates for the United Nationsthat Nigerians send about $23
billion home annually and I meanthat's as much as we.
That's like a second FDI earner.
We end this like anymore fromoil.
So, as it turns out, nigeria'sbiggest export is its people.
(16:14):
You know.
So a lot of money is sent back,and if you look at Nigeria
Barrier Statistics, you knowthey do this surveys and about
5% of remittances is spent onhealthcare, and so when you do
the numbers, it's about abillion dollars a year that is
spent on healthcare from peoplein the diaspora.
So that's a massive marketopportunity and it's apparent to
(16:37):
me that you know there thereneeds to be a concerted and
defined efforts to try andorganize some of that capital to
just improve access in.
Nigeria.
So that's what we're working on, so I'm a big believer that you
know what's.
The diaspora is actually a goodmarket to help them organize
the healthcare spending so thatpeople back home really get good
access to.
Damola (16:56):
Definitely interesting and I like the point that you
made around intentionallyorganizing that to make it work,
because, yes, I know that thereare a number of players trying
things in that space well, likehealth inclusive but how can we
have a conscious and dedicatedeffort towards making it work?
I want us to go back a bitright From our previous
(17:17):
conversation.
The goal for Wellah ealth is tosolve the challenge of
out-of-pocket expenditure.
This is estimated to be about$7 billion being spent.
How has that journey been forWellah ealth?
Dr. Neto (17:33):
Well, we don't have $7 billion yet and I don't know if
that's what you're asking.
I mean, I've always known thatit's a long-term journey,
because the biggest challengesand we knew this early on the
biggest challenges we face arearound education and trust, and
so the fact that the marketexists, so people are spending
money, doesn't mean they'llspend it with you, because,
(17:54):
first of all, in who are you?
Why would they give you money?
Because we know the Nigeriansociety is very low trust and
low integrity, unfortunately.
So trust is a huge barrier toovercome and it's expensive to
overcome.
Related to that, of course, iseducation Is educating people
that this out-of-pocketexpenditure that you have, there
are more efficient ways tospend it, and that also takes a
(18:17):
good bit of work Because, as weknow, the trust for an
understanding of insurance inNigeria isn't really that high.
So you have to then spend agood bit of time and effort in
educating people, and so I'vealways known that it would take
a bit of time and it also beexpensive.
What I think the industry hasn'tbeen great at and correct me if
(18:39):
I'm wrong I don't feel likethere's been a concerted effort
to build that trust andeducation across the board in
the market.
I think that insurers andinsured texts and everybody in
this space should come togetherand really work on improving the
general awareness and trust andthe idea that in a rising tide
lifts all boats.
We need to subscribe to that sothat we don't have all this
(19:02):
pockets of energies and what'sgoing on.
Yes, they can, but can wecollaborate a bit more on a high
level to really fund hugeawareness campaigns, huge
marketing campaigns that letspeople know and understand that
insurance is the way to go, notjust for health care but, I
think, across the board, buildsome of that trust and then from
(19:25):
there, when the market is a lotbigger, there's more awareness,
the individual companies cancome in and maybe start
competing.
But I think there's a lot ofwork still to be done to build
that education and trust.
Folumy (19:35):
Again, we've always had conversations around
communication on marketing andadvertising, the awareness that
you just talked about.
But from some of the marketsurveys that's been done and
some of the interactions thatwe've had with people that are
in the non-insurance sector,I've been the fact that there's
still that trust issue that theycan give their money to an
(19:57):
insurance person because theyfeel that when it's gone or that
they will not be able toutilize the money.
So do you think it's the pointof when it's now, or it should
be a point of actually changingthe direction of how we
communicate to the people thatwe're trying to reach?
Dr. Neto (20:12):
Well, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of work on the how
I think so, for instance.
This is why I've always spokenabout paying claims in industry,
because actually the best storyyou can tell about insurance is
to show people that it works.
We can talk from now until thecows come home.
But if we don't have lots ofpeople that are saying, yeah, so
I'm using insurance, so I wentto claim well, they paid me,
(20:35):
they didn't stress me out,that's the way, that's the proof
of their putting.
So I think that we haven't donea great job at talking about the
success of insurance inpeople's lives.
Life insurance, for instance.
I mean the difference thatmakes to somebody if a great
(20:58):
story will be it stay at homemore, for instance.
Or a housewife with three kids,her husband is well off, he's
providing for the family andeverything is going well, and he
dies suddenly.
We know how disastrous that canbe.
That can push your family intopoverty.
But if life insurance pays out,that makes a massive difference
(21:18):
.
Have you ever heard a storylike that on TV anywhere?
No, not exactly no, but I'mpretty sure it happens.
We're not all the time, but I'mpretty sure there's at least
one person in Nigeria that hashappened to, but nobody has put
that window on TV to tell herstory.
Damola (21:37):
I think there's a lot also to it, right, because that
widow, for example, doesn't wantto be out there, so that family
members will not come and sayshe now has money.
Dr. Neto (21:49):
Well, I mean, you won't say that you paid her 20
million dollars, you know no.
Folumy (21:53):
But then a lot of people are quite aggressive when it
comes to testimony.
I saw a post recently onTwitter saying that everybody
complains that they don't trustinsurance, but when they pick
limbs there's nobody in Nigeriathat would come forward to say
I've been picked limbs or I havemoney now, but before then you
just hear a lot of comments onit, say insurance companies are
(22:16):
dubious and when people finallyget their claims paid they then
go mute.
We don't hear these thingsanymore yeah.
Dr. Neto (22:24):
Yes, you're right and we've seen that ourselves, you
know.
But we actively ask people.
I wonder how my insuranceinsurance companies actively do
this.
I mean, the truth is it's agame of numbers.
If you ask everybody, oneperson will eventually agree.
That's just the way.
But if you don't ask, if youask one person and they say no,
I say we're not going to do it,then we're never going to know.
I think that, as a matter ofcourse, everybody gets it
(22:48):
claimed, paid out, should beasked would you be willing to do
this for us?
And honestly, you ask 100people, you get that.
Damola (22:56):
So I'm wondering can partnerships work?
And so partnerships in thesense that so, for example,
insurers are partnering withWellah ealth, right?
So Wellah ealth is tech focusedand they are customer facing
and they are able to get thesetestimonials, for example,
provide that kind of guidance topeople OK, this is what
insurance is, so this is whatthey can benefit from it, right?
(23:19):
Can partnerships work in thatlight?
Because maybe insurancecompanies are not equipped today
to do all of that, but maybeextending their abilities
through some of these kind ofpartnerships perhaps can be a
way.
haven't got any mean Iinsurance companies has come to
me and said please give us twoor three people that we can put
(23:40):
on the billboard that says paidmy claim, go and get insurance.
So we still have to do thatwork and then go and sell it to
the insurance companies.
That this is the.
I think the strategy has toalso be.
There has to be a belief inthat strategy from the insurance
company so that we're workingtogether, so that it's almost
like the marketing from theresays you know what?
This is a definite strategy.
(24:02):
We already have the.
We just need the people to puton them.
Then it makes life easy for mewhen I go to find the person, as
opposed to going to find thatperson to tell a story and then
I have to still pitch that storythen to insurance company.
You know like life is hard foreverybody.
Yes, so I think that insurancecompanies with big budgets
should have this as a marketingstrategy and then approach us,
(24:24):
their partners, to say let'sfind two or three people for us.
We can tell a good story, havea campaign, put it on billboards
, put it on TV, put it on radio.
Honestly, do that a couple oftimes.
And now we have a referencepoint because when we go to sell
, what I say is you don't seethat adverse, look at that
adverse Insurance?
They pay insurance points.
There's no reference points andpeople tell us this we have
(24:45):
hundreds of agents in the market.
People say I must see youaround.
We don't have a reference pointfor you.
I would like my agents to beable to say look outside the
market, see that billboard.
That's our partner that paidthat claim.
I can tell you it would be yourclaim.
So I think that you knowmarketing teams and insurance
companies should look at thisseriously and see.
You know how do we tell thosestories that make people believe
(25:07):
that these things happen?
Folumy (25:10):
Okay.
So for the marketing, I think,individually, the insurance
company or some insurancecompany tries to at least change
the narrative.
Well, you mentioned earlier inthis session was the fact that
we all need to come together anddo that, because it doesn't
seem like the weights one man iscarrying or one insurance
(25:30):
company is carrying is actuallychanging the narrative.
It just seems like people justknow that insurance companies
are saying, okay, they've comewith their adverts again.
But I mean, if it comes, youknow, from a wider range, like
with collaborative efforts fromdifferent parts of the insurance
industry, I think that thatwould, you know, sort of cost,
like a major impact.
Then you know, just one persontrying as much as possible to
(25:53):
maybe create as many adverts asthey can or marketing campaign
and trying to see how they can,you know, change the narrative.
But then, for instance, if itwas AXA months at is still just
going to be, axa months at isnot going to be.
That the industry has, you know,a whole sort of changes that
narrative in Nigeria, I want toassume, to be away from
communication.
(26:13):
In terms of claims payments, doyou also see a challenge with
the fact that people are notwilling to pay for insurance
because there's no flexibilityin payment.
I know that that's whatWellahealth does.
You know, by helping to unborndo products, say, for instance,
now we're starting with themalaria insurance, you know,
(26:34):
just making it affordable for,like, the average person on the
street.
Do you think that that has beeneffective in terms of
compression and, you know,bringing people into the
insurance space?
Dr. Neto (26:45):
And my thinking is evolving and it's not evolving
story.
We're still collecting data onthis.
I think that, to be honest, itis challenging to get people to
part with, you know, a regularpremium payment without getting
a service in return regularly,you know, and the market hasn't
evolved yet to that place.
And so I think that you know,unbornly unbornly is certainly a
(27:09):
what is certainly one way tostart a conversation on bonding
also in a way that they are ableto experience something outside
of, say, a claim, right.
So I mean the perfect insurergoal.
You know, episode is somethingthat is rare, but it's
significant, right.
So I mean that's why Lyla is agreat product, at least from the
insurance point of view, butyou only lose your life once, or
(27:32):
you know, whoever has that youknow product only loses their
life once, and you know it maynot happen for years, may not
happen at all, and we know thata lot of times, actually, the
most life products that we sellin the industry are either
mandatory products or embeddedproducts, you know.
So things like credit life orgroup life In voluntary life I
don't know that, I've not seenthe data, but I'd be very
(27:53):
surprised if it's up to.
You know 30% of premiums?
Do you know what it is at all?
Folumy (28:00):
I wouldn't necessarily say voluntary, I would say it's
a mixture because, again, whatwe do back home is it's a
mixture of investments involuntary life, so that people
don't come back and say I didnot die, I did not get my money
back.
So we don't try to do voluntarylife like expressively, it has
to come with something which islargely investment.
Dr. Neto (28:21):
Okay.
So making the point exactlythat the idea that I pay premium
and I didn't say so far theevent and I'm getting nothing
back, I know this is a scam, andso I think that's really where
you know the industry needs tofigure a way to serve people but
still, obviously, you know,make it a profitable venture for
the companies.
And so I think combining is oneway, so that people have kind
(28:44):
of smaller events thatpotentially they're more likely
to claim from.
But then going beyond that isthinking about how do we then
embed it into something else.
I think that the story aboutembedding is still evolving, but
I think that ultimately that'swhat we as industry have to
figure out is how to embedinsurance so that the service
(29:06):
it's embedded with becomes theregular experience, right, and
then the insurance is now theextra benefits.
Damola (29:15):
Yeah, absolutely I agree with you.
Embedded insurance, I thinkwould shape the future.
Dr. Neto (29:22):
It's too difficult to dummy.
Let me jump in.
It's not.
When we say embedded, I don'tlike.
The reason I'd like to reallysay and you know, pin my my flag
to embedded is that it's onething to embed is another thing
to be successful with an embed.
So the devil is in detail.
So not just embed it with acouple of embedding, but
thinking deeply about the valueof what it is that insurance
(29:44):
brings to that product.
Yeah, because we've done thisourselves and you know I have
learned is that it's one thingto just embed, and so if you buy
this and you get insurance, buthow does that play in the mind
of the customer?
Are they looking at the productas one, in that the experience
from this product is part of theexperience of insurance?
(30:06):
I don't know if that makessense.
I think that sometimes are veryremoved.
For example, if we embedinsurance with buying a bag of
flour, how do we get people tounderstand or feel that every
time they use their flour tobake bread, they are consuming
the insurance?
They're not consuming flour,they're not consuming bread,
(30:27):
they're consuming insurance.
So I think that's where theembedding has to get to, so that
it's now looks like actuallythe flour is part of the
insurance Not that I boughtflour and then insurance is
something on the side, but likea real and true deep embed.
I don't think that we asindustry have figured that out.
I think all of our embeds arevery superficial, at least in my
(30:48):
experience.
Damola (30:49):
I think it's a journey right.
I mean all of these thingsreally just pumped up post COVID
.
Honestly, the industry hasgrown.
The space has grown.
Embedded insurance we see a lotof people playing within that
space.
We've seen a lot ofpartnerships in short texts and
insurers doing thingsdifferently and seeing how
(31:10):
basically train things on thewall and seeing which sticks yes
.
So it's interesting and itwould be interesting to hear
about some of the partnershipsthat Wellah ealth has done in
the, at least since when we lastspoke.
I know that you've done a lotof partnerships.
There was Beema Lab as well.
(31:30):
Since then, I mean, just tellus.
Dr. Neto (31:33):
Yes.
So partnership we've done anumber, I think probably the
biggest one is one with StanbicBank.
So we've got a partnership withStanbic where when you sign on
to their mobile money wallet,you get health insurance and are
are able to upsell people onthat channel over at that
channel.
We also have a partnership withVerve, so with a Verve card you
(31:55):
can get insurance plan atsignificant discounts when you
buy using your Verve card.
So we have those two.
Those two are in really bigpartnerships that took a lot of
effort to put through and we'veseen decent uptake following
those partnerships, but still alot more work to be done.
I think that signing apartnership is one hard bit.
Getting a partnership to workis the second hard bit just as
(32:17):
hard, if not harder than theinitial partnership.
We've also had a couple ofpartnerships with MFIs.
I think MFI's provide a goodopportunity, so microfinance
banks provide a good opportunityto really get things going and
a few FinTech apps.
So we've got this partnershipwith Reprite, like a new bank
and savings app where when youopen an account, they actually
(32:40):
provide you with some of ourhealth benefits.
And then finally I think wejust launched this with KIPA.
Kipa is a FinTech thatprovides a merchant's tools and
financing for merchants, sopeople that buy fast moving
consumer goods.
These guys provide them withinvoicing, pos, those types of
(33:01):
services, and then we'veembedded some insurance into
them.
So we've got 3,000 of theirmerchants using our insurance
plans and we go to have way more.
I think some progress, butstill a lot more work to be done
.
Damola (33:15):
So for me, I'm looking at the SME space, the gig
workers space.
How do we get these guys to buyinsurance, not because we want
to sell insurance, but theyactually need insurance.
Folumy (33:29):
We do need it.
Damola (33:30):
Yes, so it was interesting when you talked
about that partnership.
What are your thoughts aroundwhat we need to do in order to
better serve this market?
Is it flexible, premium,flexible product or, you know,
really just designing somethingdifferent?
Because it's a news, it's adifferent space, different way
(33:51):
of life, different thinking,different mindset.
The pocket strength also is notthe same with the one that was
used to design insuranceproducts that exist today.
Dr. Neto (34:01):
Absolutely, and I think you've hit the nail on the
head, is that you know, forthese types of you know new
opportunities, it's really puton a you know customer discovery
and product hat and go into thetrenches and you know, work
with, you know the partners andthe actual people there to
figure out what are the risksthey are most worried about.
I think that's the key thing,and people people don't buy
(34:24):
insurance, right, they buy thatyou know risk protection, I
guess.
Is that okay?
Is it fire?
Is it you know theft?
Is it you know what?
Is it Lots of income.
You know what is it that I'mmost concerned about as a small,
you know merchant, smallbusiness owner and I think,
understanding that andunderstanding how they think
about it, understanding theirown cash flow, to also
(34:45):
understand collect payments anddesigning products and premium
collection around that process Idon't think that we've done the
work.
I mean I even say thisourselves.
You know we've obviously donesome partnerships there, but I
don't think that we have thebest product yet.
What we've been doing isshoehorning our current products
into that space.
But I think that the real youknow winners there will be
(35:08):
people that you know, really,you know, put on their t-shirt
and jeans, enter the market,sweat a bit with these guys,
understand what they're goingthrough and then come and design
very good products and speak tothem and then you'll see the
update will be significant.
I think that actually thebiggest opportunities around
this kind of small businessinsurance, because they
literally have no insurance.
You know, we work with 2,000small businesses and we've done
(35:31):
the service.
They have no insurance and theyhave significant risks.
You know, we've got people withinventory of, you know, two,
five, 10 million Naira andthere's zero insurance there.
You know.
Folumy (35:42):
I think it's a big opportunity.
Dr. Neto (35:43):
I don't know that anybody is really focused on it
yet.
Damola (35:47):
I think partnerships again I mean maybe because I
work within partnerships, I'm abig proponent for that right.
So I think that partnershipscan definitely extend the reach
of insurance companies.
Right and I think that's whyI'm talking with the likes of,
you know, Wellah ealth to reachmarkets that they've not been
able to, and beyond justproviding the current insurance
(36:09):
pros, how can they work withthose partners, for example, to
design new products?
Yes, I think it is.
Dr. Neto (36:16):
I think.
I think, Dammy, I think theproblem with the partnerships is
the partnerships arms-lengthare partnerships.
I mean you work in partnerships.
I think the way thatpartnerships really work is if
you enter the streets with me.
I think sometimes it's tooabstract because when we try to
have this conversation anddescribe things it doesn't
really hit home.
But you know, enter the streetswith me for a few days.
(36:38):
You need to click instantlyLike, okay, I see where you're
coming from and then you cantake that first hand learning to
go and you know, figure out howto put it within the.
You know the constraints ofcost, that you have an insurance
side.
But I think that you know it'snot enough to just, you know, do
zoom calls, haveair-conditioned in offices and
talk about partnerships.
I think the partnership is bros,come with me, make a new market
(37:00):
.
Let's see how this thing isworking.
You know, not to sell, but toreally understand, yes, and when
we understand, then we can nowbuild the right product for
people.
Folumy (37:09):
Okay, before we start talking about, you know,
building products.
Do you think that?
I mean, judging by the factthat you've said now that
partnership is practicing Do youthink that this might be?
I mean, before we put theproduct out, we might have to
evaluate the infrastructure, andyou know flexibility of having
(37:32):
to remove some of our businessstrategy to fit into the current
market changes.
I mean, technology is changing,people are, consumer behavior
is changing.
You know some of the marketfindings that you currently have
as well.
I'm sure they were really notthere before, and then you know
because it had evolved over time, but then we still have
(37:52):
infrastructures in place thatare still catering to the
traditional, previous ways ofinsurance.
Do you think that this might belike the first aspect to review
before we then start to designproducts that would then that
would be best suited for thismarket segment?
Dr. Neto (38:08):
So I think it's a bit of chicken and egg.
You know, I think that it's hardto know you know how you're
redesigning your existingsystems If you don't go out and
you know, find out what you needto redesign it for.
But then again, you know, ifyou don't redesign, maybe you
can't really go out and do itthe right way.
So I think on a level there's abit of a chicken and egg
problem there.
But I would say that you know,going out and figuring out what
(38:29):
it is that's out there isprobably the way to go to inform
the changes we need to make,because I think there are a lot
of changes we need to make.
I think you know insurance andI've said this number of times
has been very much built inNigeria for the big corporate.
You know production, whereinsurance companies have made
their money, and so it's a verydifferent way of thinking when
you're trying to do kind ofsmall businesses, you know
(38:49):
because which are big corporate.
You know you wear a suit andtie, get into a condition with
small businesses.
You wear a T-shirt and jeansthat you go and sweat in the
markets.
So the people you hired for theAC and suits is not the same
people that you hire for youknow sweat on the streets and
also it takes a bit of time.
You know with one.
You know big business you close,you know it's what's?
100 million Naira in premium.
You know everybody's happy, thebonuses are good.
(39:11):
But with the small business,you know to get 100 million
Naira in premium, you know cantake a bit of work but once you
get it right that grows almostindefinitely to, you know,
billions of Naira in premium.
So I think again it's astrategy thing.
Like we said, the marketing andthe storytelling.
It has to be strategy.
But also with this product andmarket development there also
has to be strategy from the topthat says we believe that the
(39:32):
future is in small businesses.
We know that's where theopportunity and market is.
We're going to do the work andmake the investment to figure it
out.
You know long term.
So I think when the insurancecompanies have that as central
to their strategies, thenperhaps we'll start investing
long term in the work that needsto be done to get us to
improving their systems formaking this work.
Damola (39:51):
Absolutely.
What does the future hold forWellah ealth?
And then also, like all theinsurance, innovation and
technology space?
Dr. Neto (39:59):
I'm very bullish, I'm an entrepreneur, so by
definition I'm very.
You know, if I was optimistic Iwouldn't start a business.
So, I'm very bullish.
I think that the only way is up, and that's the advantage, I
guess, of being in a marketwhere the penetration is low.
It means that we can only getbetter and I think that the
ingredients are coming intoplace.
What I just wish is thereshould be a bit more
(40:21):
acceleration, a bit moreunderstanding that we are early
days and so you know things willnot be right.
You know some of the numberswill not make sense, Some of the
things will not add up, butbelieving that if we are to make
the progress we need to make,we need to be patient and, you
know, invest.
So I'm very optimistic.
Like I said, I think that lotsof opportunity, there's more
capital coming in, there's agood bit of startups around.
(40:43):
The enterprises as well areopen to partnerships.
You know, we've seen, like Isaid, it's an act.
So I have done some thingstogether.
We've got something withStanbic, I think MTN coming
into the space.
So there's a lot going on andI'm very excited to have some
more of this actuallycrystallizing to real progress.
Damola (41:02):
Yeah, and you want Wellah ealth to be in the middle
of it.
Dr. Neto (41:06):
Oh, absolutely as far as the health care goes yes, I
think we're not too true to ourhome, but we're the best
partners as far as deliveryhealth care services really
affordably goes.
We work with over 30 partners.
We manage tens of thousands ofpatients every month.
We have a lot of experience.
We've built really greattechnology, you know.
So, I think, by the partner ofchoice as far as health care
goes.
So use Wellah ealth.
Folumy (41:30):
I think before we go to questions that we need to ask,
you know that there's a big liketo assume that there's
currently technology disruption.
We just wanted to know whatyour advice would be, especially
now.
It hasn't really beendisruptive in the African
continent, but what we did seeabout using that to the
advantage of the majority of thehealth sector.
(41:52):
So I'm going to start your back.
Dr. Neto (41:54):
Yes, so great question .
And so, first of all, I don'tuse the word disruption actually
, when it comes to, you know,africa, and the reason is, is
that there's nothing to disrupt.
What's the batting with?
And if you look at the originalof that, you know idea of
disruption.
Professor Christensen, heactually wrote a book focused on
your markets, like Africa, andit talks of non consumption,
(42:14):
right, market creation.
Yeah, so actually that is whattechnology affords us in
emerging economies that reallyhaven't been participating in
markets like this is.
With technology, it reduces thebarrier and cost for creating
markets and for actually helpingpeople pull in products into
their lives.
(42:35):
And so now, for instance, youknow something like over 90% of
our customers never hadinsurance before, and in fact,
you know in that book on marketcreation that is the prosperity
paradox, micro and sure is a isa specific example they use.
And on how you know a marketcreating innovation using
technology, can you know, enablepeople to pull in products that
(42:57):
make a difference in theirlives.
So I think the model is reallyusing technology to create
markets and using businessmodels based on technology to
create new markets that canreally, you know, revolutionize
access.
Damola (43:10):
Protection gap across the world.
I was looking at one of theposts from Simon Torrance
recently and he puts that atabout $7 trillion and if you
look at Africa, insurancepenetration is about 3%.
In Nigeria is less than 1%,maybe around 0.5% or 0.4%,
whoever is counting.
So, yes, the opportunities thatthe gap is there.
(43:31):
How are we using technologyinnovation to remodel our
products and how we viewcustomers and better serve them?
It's an interesting time.
We're super excited aboutwhat's happening within the
space.
Yes, it's early days.
We are growing, but again, theidea around our podcast, our
webinars, conferences as well,is how can we learn from others
(43:55):
and also take those learnings tobuild what we are building so
we don't repeat their mistakes?
Also, understanding that theAfrican market is peculiar.
It's different.
I know that recently you openedup shop in Akwa Ibom .
What's happening there?
What do we be expecting next?
Dr. Neto (44:13):
Yeah, so that is two-fold strategy wise.
One is working with stategovernments.
So we wanted to work with aprogressive state government
that's looking at healthinsurance, in particular,
adoption, and you know Nigeriarecently passed it's probably a
year now so it's no longer thatrecent but a year ago Nigeria
passed the new Health InsuranceAct and that act put state
(44:34):
health insurance schemes at thecore of how health is going to
be delivered, and so that officein Akwa Ibom state helps us to
start to do state healthinsurance work across the south
side and even the south side.
That was the strategy there.
So you see us a lot more workwith the government.
And the second thing was reallyactually helping us to grow out
(44:55):
our customer service operations.
So we found that growing a lotof people and, as you know,
Abuja and Lagos can be quiteexpensive, so to keep our costs
low, we thought that would be agreat second office location for
us.
So those are the two thingsthat led us to do that and,
(45:17):
surprisingly, actually part ofthe reason why we chose a quiet
coincidentally I'm from there,but that's not the reason
Coincidentally Coincidentally.
But the reason is a Akwa Ibom isa more successful state.
Wow, okay, yes, you know we hadquite a lot of interest there
and, you know, did a lot of goodnumbers in Akwa Ibom state and
we had some people there as wellthat we could build our office
(45:39):
on top of.
So that's the reason that wewent there in the end.
Damola (45:43):
Okay, I mean interesting .
You said that because a lot ofpeople are targeting Lagos,
lagos, maybe you're going to abad number, but in the West,
right, you say you're doingstuff at a quiet bomb Because,
again, nigeria is huge, right,the opportunity is Nigerian, not
Lagos.
Perhaps, maybe it is the waythat we are looking at it as
(46:04):
well, because those in the South, in the North, they actually
need these services.
Perhaps we are not so in termsof the success in that space, is
it a thing of culture?
Is it language?
Dr. Neto (46:18):
So yeah, very good point.
I think there's a number ofreasons.
I mean culture, of course,being one of them.
For instance, in the North youstruggle to sell insurance if
you go to the North because ofthe culture there.
But I think that very simply,you know, without kind of doing
too much of an analysis, it'sactually cheaper Because, if you
think about it, the noise inLagos for you to cut through
(46:39):
that noise, for anybody to payattention to you, it's so
challenging.
If I want to buy a spot onradio, you can imagine what
you'd cost me.
If I want to buy a billboardyou know it's significant again
Whereas I can go to a smallerstate, somewhere in the South,
southeast, even in the NorthCentral, and buy out all the
(46:59):
billboards in the town for lessthan one billboard in Lagos.
And I'm doing low-cost plans.
So why would I go, spend a lotof money buying ads or getting a
share of money in Lagos andAbuja when I can go for a
fraction of the cost to get ashare of money in a smaller
state and still do quite well?
(47:20):
So, especially like a smallcompany like ours, starting off
with something that's a bitchallenging, the smaller states
can be a good ground, betterplace for us to experiment and
then, when we get successful, wecan now come to Lagos and start
to fight with big amountsInteresting.
Folumy (47:35):
Thank you for your good work and also for coming on our
podcast.
I mean it's been an interestingconversation, especially around
insurance penetration,telemedicine, as well as the
infrastructures that we need toput in place to ensure that
we're able to get this productto people.
So I want to say a very bigthank you and, before we go off,
(47:56):
I would like to ask, on behalfof our audience, how they can
reach out to you.
All right, thanks.
Dr. Neto (48:02):
Always a pleasure jumping on a conversation.
So LinkedIn, I think, is agreat way to look at the updates
on whether I help any officialstuff, and then for the kind of
more unofficial, informal andtroublesome side, you can follow
me on Twitter, so onI'm Doc neto, Doc NETO , but
here on LinkedIn Ikpeme Neto ,so depends on the flavor you
(48:24):
want, you choose the channel.
Thank you .
Damola (48:29):
Awesome I mean thank you very much.
It's been a pleasure speakingwith you, Really appreciate you
coming on and sharing as much asyou did.
Dr. Neto (48:35):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much, it was apleasure .
Damola (48:40):
And I hope you did enjoy that conversation.
I hope you had an interestingone.
Do ensure that you continue tolisten to our podcast and share
as well with your colleagues andfriends future episodes and
even previous ones, on Apple,Spotify, Google Podcasts, on
every platform that you get yourpodcast Right.
Folumy (49:01):
And also don't forget to join the conversation on all of
our social media platforms.
We might have comments, reviews, as well as questions.
Please do share on our LinkedInpage or on our Twitter page, as
well as remember to follow us.
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