EP 190: Undreaming Wetiko (the mind virus): Breaking the spell with Paul Levy

We are in the midst of a collective psychosis that the Native Americans call "wetiko." Wetiko can be likened to a mind-virus. Quantum in nature, it contains both the deepest evil and its own medicine. Wetiko can either destroy our species or wake us up, depending on whether or not we recognize what it is revealing to us.

A pioneer in the field of spiritual emergence, Paul Levy is a wounded healer in private practice, assisting others who are also awakening to the dreamlike nature of reality. He has written three books on the wetiko mind-virus - his most recent book is "Undreaming Wetiko: Breaking the Spell of the Nightmare Mind-Virus."

He is the founder of the “Awaken in the Dream Community” in Portland, Oregon. An artist, he is deeply steeped in the work of C. G. Jung, and has been a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner for close to 40 years.

Connect with Paul Levy here:
https://www.awakeninthedream.com

Levy, an insightful pioneer in unearthing the depths of this psychic epidemic, joins us to unfold the mystery of how Wetiko can distort our perception and identity, urging us to awaken to our intrinsic creative power. Through our conversation, we unearth the vampire-like nature of this entity and its ability to turn our own genius against us, prompting behaviors that echo a planetary self-destruction. As we dissect the elusive threads of this mind virus, we also uncover the potential for healing, emphasizing the critical need for self-connection to combat its blinding illusions.

Levy's compelling arguments draw from the awe-inspiring implications of quantum physics, dissolving the subject-object divide and illuminating the path to self-realization. The episode serves as a call to arms, challenging you to leverage your innate creative agency to dismantle the hold of Wetiko, thus sparking a contagious cycle of self-discovery and outward expression. Our discussion illuminates how embracing creativity is not merely a personal endeavor but a revolutionary act with the potential to reshape our collective world.

Tales of channeling, personal awakenings, and the rich interplay of intuition and coincidence reveal the deeper layers of the psyche. Levy inspires us with reflections on Jungian insights and the enigmatic experiences of Philip K. Dick, pondering the capacity for sudden, impactful shifts in consciousness that could signal a new epoch for humankind. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:18):
Your life is your greatest work of art, and it all
relates back to the sacredmystics.
Welcome to Integrate Yourself.
I'm your host, Alison Pillow,and you can find me at
allicinpillowcom and, finally,thrivingprogramcom.
Today I'm here with a veryspecial guest, Paul Levy.

(00:41):
He is a pioneer in the field ofspiritual emergence, a wounded
healer in private practice,assisting others who are also
awakening to the dreamlikenature of reality.
He has written three books onthe Wittego Mindvirus.
His most recent book isUndreaming Wittego Breaking the
Spell of the Nightmare Mindvirus.

(01:01):
He's the founder of the Awakenin the Dream Community in
Portland Oregon.
He's an artist and he is deeplysteeped in the work of Carl
Jung and has been a TibetanBuddhist practitioner for close
to 40 years.
You can find him atAwakenInTheDreamcom.
Paul, thank you so much forbeing on.

(01:22):
I'm so glad you're here.
We've made a personalconnection in Portland Oregon,
and so I am honored that youwere wanting to be on my show as
well.
So thank you for being here.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Oh, thank you.
I'm so happy and excited to behere with you today, alison, so
thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Yeah, you're welcome.
You've written so many booksabout Wittego and you have
shared also with me some of yourpersonal experiences that
you've written about in some ofyour books as well.
You've written everything frominformation about the quantum
field to Wittego, this mindvirusthat, if people don't know,

(02:02):
we're going to talk about thattoday and share more about what
that is.
But this is something I'mfeeling like most definitely
throughout the last couple ofyears, we've been needing to
really know more about, becauseup until now, it's pretty much
been hidden.
So I'd love for you to start byjust sharing what Wittego is

(02:23):
with my audience and how youcame to realize what Wittego was
in your life as well, and yourexperience in the outside world.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, for sure.
No, thank you.
So it's a Native American termand Wittego really connotes it's
like a virus of the mind andit's a cannibalistic spirit
that's really the source of allof the evil that we're plying
out in our personal lives,collectively, as a species.
But I point out, so I'm just atranslator, because every

(02:57):
spiritual tradition it's notjust Native Americans they came
up with the word Wittego butevery spiritual tradition and
visionary artists, thinkers,philosophers throughout history
have been pointing at Wittego,but just in different names.
And so I'm just a translator.
It's not like, oh, I'vediscovered something, no, I'm
just translating this indigenousancient term into a modern

(03:22):
psychological idiom so that wecan understand it.
And I point out that Wittegoit's a quantum phenomena, and
what I mean?
Just like, if you have light,what is the nature of light?
Well, it's a wave or a particle, it depends how you observe it.
Wittego being a quantumphenomena, it contains the
deepest evil and it's in thesuperposition of states.

(03:44):
It also contains its ownvaccine, its own medicine, and
not only does it contain its owncure, but it actually is
catalyzing the evolution of ourspecies and helping us to wake
up.
So what Wittego is?
It's like this, this form ofthis revelation.
But if we don't recognize it asa revelation, it will kill us.

(04:05):
And the origin of Wittego iswithin the human psyche.
And when people hear about amind virus, some people think oh
, that's all woo-woo and newagey and just this goblin book.
But what it really means isthat the origin of the
collective madness becauseWittego is a form of collective
psychosis the origin of thecollective madness that we're

(04:26):
playing out all over the worldis to be found within the psyche
, and that's a no-brainer.
Like where in the world elsecould it be found?
And so Wittego, just to give areal, essential articulation of
it, it's a virus of the mind.
It's like this vampiric spiritthat feeds off of our own energy
.
You know, in the Bible, in theapocryphal text, they talk about

(04:48):
Wittego.
They call it the counterfeitingspirit.
So it puts us on, itimpersonates us, it offers us
like this false version ofourselves oh, I'm limited, I'm
wounded, I'm traumatized.
And if we're not awake in thatmoment and we identify with its
version of ourselves, then ithas us, then it can manipulate
us and control us.
But as long as we're in touchwith our true nature, it has no

(05:12):
currency over us at all.
And so, wittego, it's a form ofthis blindness.
It's a psychic blindness, butit's a very peculiar form of
blindness in that it actuallythinks it's sighted and it
doesn't know it's blind.
And not only that, it thinksit's more sighted than people
who actually see.
So, wittego, it operatesthrough, it covertly operates

(05:34):
through the projectivetendencies of the mind, because
we're always projecting onto thewaking ink plot, but in such a
way that we hypnotize ourselvesby our own, our own genius, our
own creative genius, in a waygets turned against us.
In a way, you can think of itlike we create this cocoon
around us and we suffocate andwe're actually killing ourselves

(05:57):
.
And this process I'm describingis getting played out writ
large on the world stage.
But what I'm pointing at isthat encoded in the revelation,
in the Wittego mind virus that'skilling us, you know, because
clearly we're enactingcollective suicide on the planet
I mean, that's a no brainer butencoded in or acting out, and

(06:22):
this gets mapped on collectivelyand individually.
Think about people withaddictions, you know, or in
trauma, you know.
They're acting out theiraddiction, they're
re-traumatizing themselves.
But encoded in the acting outof their addiction or their
trauma, they're actually tryingto actually unconsciously
experience something consciouslyso as to free themselves from

(06:44):
that malady.
That's a way of describingWittego, that we're acting it
out as a way of actuallybecoming conscious of it, and
when we do, that's when, all ofa sudden, the energy that it was
using against us to empower itsnefarious agenda and to destroy
us, all of a sudden, that sameenergy becomes available for us

(07:05):
to express ourselves creatively,with love and compassion.
So it's a very profound idea.
Like I'm saying, I'm just atranslator and how I came to
this was in my own life.
This isn't just, oh, I havelike this abstract idea.
No, you know, I'm a 67 and whenI was in my early 20s I'm an
only child and you know, withoutgoing into the story, my father

(07:27):
was the one.
I didn't have any conception ofthis, but he was taken over by
his unconscious because hewasn't dealing with his abuse
and just enacted it on the nextof kin, like a lot of people do.
And, being the only child, Iwas the recipient of that and it
almost killed me.
It was so intense and it woundup that the suffering that

(07:49):
resulted, you know, itcatapulted me in so deeply in
words that I had.
This was when I was.
This was 1981.
So I was like 24 at that pointthat I had a life transforming
spiritual awakening thatimmediately got me thrown in
mental hospitals because fromthe consensus point of view, the
mainstream reality, I had had aradical personality change and

(08:12):
I was realizing, oh my God,we're having a collective dream.
And I was so excited I no waycould you be, at least I wasn't
prepared for that realizationand I was just so excited about
what I was realizing that I'dfreak people out.
And within a day I got thrownin my first mental hospital and
all the doctors you know, and Iprobably got put in hospitals

(08:34):
another four or five timesduring that next 18 months and
every single doctor was oh, youhave this newly discovered
chemical imbalance, you know,and it's since come out.
The same authors of the DSMthree, which had come out of
1980, years later came out andsaid oh, we confess, we're sorry
, there's actually no such thingas a chemical imbalance.
We just made that up.

(08:55):
I mean, I have the quotes.
The same doctors who DSM three.
They were saying thepharmaceutical companies, who
was their marketing campaign tosell more drugs, to make more
money.
But when they were telling methat I was mentally ill.
I was diagnosing them going oh,they're just incredibly
ignorant, right they?
I never for a second bought into that.
I was ill because it was madevery clear to me that I was

(09:16):
having an awakening, and but itwas unbelievably difficult
because then I got sotraumatized by the psychiatric
system and I began to realizethe same sort of this dark force
that was coming through theperson of my father.
I was recognizing wait a second,this is the same force, almost
like it's non locally pervadingthe field, that was coming

(09:38):
through the system of psychiatryand then, like iterations of a
fractal that are internestedwithin each other, I began to
realize, wait, that's the samedarker force that's playing
itself out collectively in theworld's body politic.
That's when I began to have theinitial sort of like
understanding of the revelationthat was being shown to me.

(09:58):
That could have absolutelykilled me and it destroyed my
mother.
It killed both my parents.
I haven't had a family for 20somewhat years, you know,
because all of the relativesbought in to my father's version
of opulses in denial of hismental illness, and so you know
I've had to deal with that.
But the point is, is that whatI'm writing about?

(10:19):
It's not just like a theory.
It's come out of my ownexperience.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, yeah, that's wow.
Thank you for sharing that,paul.
That's, and I know that youwrite about that in your book
too, and you explain a lot.
You share that story a lot, andI think I know I was reading
the Undreaming Witego and yourWitego book, the one before that
, so I remember reading aboutthat and, yeah, that's amazing

(10:48):
that you were able, though, tosee so clearly that you know
where your truth was within allof that and still be able to
heal, you know.
So that was that's reallyincredible story.
Yeah, well, when you say heal,keep in mind I'm still a work in
progress.
I mean it's.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
You know, I'm still assimilating and metabolizing
because it was like having adirect encounter with archetypal
evil, not just personal evil,but you know, the evil that's
portrayed in myths and fairytales.
And yeah, and I just want to saythe only way I was able to not
subscribe and buy into theauthority figures of the
psychiatrist, their version ofme.

(11:25):
I remember one time in one ofthe last hospitals they had a
big conference with all thepsychiatrists in the hospital
and me, and they were saying oh,we're all in agreement that
you're mentally ill, paul, andyou'll have this illness the
rest of your life and you'regoing to need to be on
medication until you're dyingbreath.
And I just openly said to themyou have no idea what you're
talking.
And here I'm like locked up ina psychiatric ward.

(11:48):
And I was saying to them youhave no idea what you're talking
about, you're incrediblyignorant.
You know and of course thatjust fed into their diagnosis
that I'm mentally ill, that Iwould respond that way, but it
was just.
It couldn't have been made moreclear in my own mind that I was
having an awakening.
So what they were saying it.
Never, not even for ananosecond, you know, did I

(12:08):
invest it with any truth.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, that's incredible and, as you
were talking as well in the verybeginning about what Tigo it
was it reminded me of, and Iwould also like to ask you this
question is it basically anentity, an energy without a body
that keeps going from, you know, like a trickster energy kind

(12:35):
of thing?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, I would say it's a seeming entity, not just
an entity, but we subjectivelyexperience it as if it's an
entity.
So subjectively our experience,when we're encountering what
Tigo in our own minds, wesubjectively experience it as if
it's an actual, self-existing,other alien entity.
But you know from the ultimatesense and I point this out in my

(12:58):
work that it has actually noreality, doesn't even exist.
There's no such thing as whatTigo, and yet it can kill us.
That's the paradox that it hasno intrinsic independent
existence separate from our ownconsciousness.
And that's in Buddhism that'swhat's called emptiness, and
emptiness is like in Buddhism.
That's the analogy.
To like God is that you know,when you realize the empty

(13:20):
nature of the universe and ofyourself and of your experience.
And so, yeah, it has no, youknow.
So to say it's an entity isunconsciously, by our words,
investing it with the realitythat it doesn't deserve.
Because if we, you know so, ifour listeners hear, oh, my God,
there's this mind virus and it'san entity, they'll be afraid,

(13:42):
you know, and being afraid issuperfood for Tico.
So then they're colluding inactually conjuring up the
seeming entity that will destroythem.
But they don't recognize whatit's revealing about ourselves
and it's actually showing us theprofound importance of the
psyche in creating ourexperience, in creating world
events.

(14:03):
So you know, it's really trickytalking about this stuff, you
know, because, like I'm saying,subjectively, we experience it
as if it's an entity.
From the ultimate point of viewit doesn't even exist.
And but if we say, if some oneof the mistakes people make I've
seen this is, they justimmediately identify with the
ultimate, absolute point of viewoh what, tico, doesn't exist,

(14:24):
it's nothing to be afraid of.

Speaker 1 (14:26):
That would be my next question.
Yeah, yeah, there's a choleraepidemic in the next town.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
And if we just say, oh, cholera doesn't exist and we
don't take precautions, it'llkill us.
So if we think, what Tico?
If it doesn't exist, then itwill kill us.
If we think it does exist, thenwe're empowering it, you know,
with its unwarranted power, andthen it'll kill us.
You know so.
But the thing that I'm so, thisis the conundrum that I'm
continually circulating in mywork.

(14:51):
But you know what Tico is?
Is this dreamed up phenomena?
You know, and I'm all like whenI had the realization in 1981.
Oh, my God, we're having acollective dream and, just like
in a night dream, you can havethis lucidity and recognize oh,
it's all.
I'm inside of my psyche, thisis all my own energy.
The same thing, the sameunderstanding can happen in our

(15:14):
waking dream.
And then you begin to see, ohyeah, we've been programmed and
conditioned, based on ourunconscious, our unconscious
stuff, to dream up thiscollective epidemic like we see
in the world today but that'swhat I keep on pointing at, it's
a revelation and actuallyrecognize what it's showing to
us.
Then, all of a sudden, theenergy that that's bound up to

(15:38):
compulsively conjure up thisinsanity and the evil we're
playing out in the world.
All of a sudden that energybecomes available for us to
express ourselves with love andcompassion and by being creative
.

Speaker 1 (15:51):
Yeah, exactly, I see it as something that we
experience.
Well, it sounds like we'recreating it first of all, and
then, if we're creating it, thenif we're, we're seeing it,
we're acknowledging that itexists without letting, without
giving our power away to it,then we're actually able to
transmute it.

(16:12):
So we're able to, in a way, Ithink, if we can take full
responsibility for ourselves andnot, like you said, be afraid
of it or let it take over, andthen it's not needed anymore,
right In a way?

Speaker 2 (16:26):
yeah, yeah, yeah, Right.
Exactly that's why the title ofmy new book is Undreaming
Watiko.
It's exactly that it's likewhen you realize you're creating
it, you can uncreate it.
When you realize it's adreaming phenomenon, you can
undream it.
And what I'm pointing out in mywork is that this realization is
available to all of us rightnow and one way of imagining it

(16:46):
just imagine being in a dream,right In a night dream, and you
have lucidity and you realize,oh my God, this is all this.
I thought it was objectivelyreal and I was just being
conditioned by the forms of thedream.
But when you have the lucidity,what you recognize is that wait
a second, this isn't outside ofmyself, this is my own energy.
I'm actually inside of my ownpsyche.

(17:07):
Well, that's one person, onedream character in that dream
having that realization.
What if we imagine that otherdream characters, which are just
aspects of ourselves in thatnight dream, they're also having
realization of that sameunderstanding and imagine and
all of this is via the creativeimagination and then imagine

(17:27):
that you and other of your dreamcharacters, parts of yourself
in the night dream, hang outtogether and trip out and
contemplate what we're realizing.
Oh my God, this dream ismanifesting in such a
problematic, dark, crazy way,because we've been programmed
and we've been conditioned todream it that way.
When you connect with otherpeople who are realizing that,

(17:49):
what you discover is what I callour sacred power of dreaming,
in which you realize, notintellectually but
experientially, we can put ourlucidity together and change the
dream.
We can dream a dream that'smore in alignment with who we're
discovering ourselves to be,which is not the separate self,
because what he got, one simpleway of understanding it, is that

(18:10):
it's when we're identifyingwith a separate self, with an
artificial self which is not whowe are, and then we spend the
rest of our lives investing allof our energy in protecting and
defending the separate self thatdoesn't even exist.
That's insane.
That's what what he goes is.
But when you actually realize,you see through that illusion
and you connect with otherpeople who also see through that

(18:32):
illusion and recognize, oh myGod, we're interdependent, we're
interconnected, and youdiscover, oh my God, we can
change the dream and what thatis, that's to consciously step
into and participate in our ownevolution, and that's available
to us not in just in the nightdream, but in the waking dream.
That's what this is all about.
What's happening in the worldis an initiatory or deal, and

(18:56):
you know when.
Everything depends if we havethe recognition of what's being
revealed to us.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
We went through a hugeinitiation and I feel like what
you're talking about has beenhappening.
We have been, people have beenwaking up and we have had this
collective dream and things havegotten better, I feel like, in
many ways, but we're stillworking on it.
We're still working on this.

(19:23):
You know this collective dreamhere and it's that illusion of
separation that is reallyunnatural, and we've just been
taught that a lot of things thatwe're living in are which are
very unnatural or normal, andyou know, but what?

Speaker 2 (19:39):
we're learning is yeah, it's not.
Well, that's what happens.
You know, there's the physicistDavid Baum has a phrase, an
illusion generating illusion,and in a way that's, as soon as
we see, once we identify withbeing a separate self, which is
an illusion, that illusiongenerates a whole host of other

(20:01):
illusions, that self reinforceeach other, or one way of
understanding that is.
You know, like in the quantumphysics book that I wrote, I
point out that quantum physicshas empirically proven that
there's no such thing as anobjective world separate from
our consciousness.
You know, and I can go intothat a lot, I mean, I've written
a book about it but the idea isthat subjective hallucination

(20:24):
of that the world existsobjectively feeds into and
reinforces the illusion that weexist as a subject.
Because as soon as we think theworld is an object, well then
what coerises immediately is usas a subject, that's in
relationship to the object.
But quantum physics is pointingout oh, it makes no sense at all

(20:44):
to talk about the worldexisting objectively.
That's just an idea in our mindwith no correlate to reality.
And when you have thatrealization of that, there's no
world objectively out there.
Well, what happened to thesubject?
Because we as a subject need anobject to be in relationship to
in order to be a subject, butonce you realize there's no

(21:05):
object, who am I?
You see, that's where quantumphysics, which is actually
offering the medicine for whathe called in the way I just
described it, becomes.
It's promoting itself to becomea spiritual path.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's so.
Here you saying we are the, ifwe're what we're observing, is
what we're perceiving as areality.
Is that what you're saying in away?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, well, we become entranced by our creative, by
our unconscious creative geniusfor invoking reality.
And one way of understandingthis, once again, is through the
imagination.
Say if, if I'm in a dream,right, and I'm holding a
perspective in the dream, well,what is the dream?
But it's a reflection of my ownmind.
So if I'm holding a particularpoint of view, then the dream,

(21:51):
which is not nothing other thana projection of my mind or
reflection of how I'm viewingthe dream, instantaneously has
to just offer all the evidenceconfirming the viewpoint I'm
holding, because the dream isnothing other than reflecting
our own mind.
And now I have evidence in thedream that what I'm seeing
objectively exists, because thedream has shape shifted and

(22:11):
offered me all the proof andconfirmation that it is out
there.
So then I become even moreentranced and fixed in my
viewpoint that what I'm seeingis objectively true.
So I see it that way even more,and the dream, just you know,
endlessly reflects that back, insuch a way that I entranced
myself, I've literallyhypnotized myself, and the
origin of that process is withinmy own mind.

(22:33):
And that's a completedescription of what you go that
you see.
It has no creativity at all,but it's a master personator.
So, to the extent that we'renot awake to our own creativity,
it plugs into our own createcreativity and turning it
against us.
That's why, again and again, Ipoint out that you know there
are a lot of ways I talk aboutwhat's the medicine for what you

(22:55):
go, you know, seeing throughthe objective reality, illusion,
or developing compassion,recognizing the dream, all of
those are facets of the jewel,of the medicine to heal what you
go.
But the other facet is toconnect with the creative spirit
, because who we are is creative, you know.
Or another way of saying thesame thing, because I'm

(23:15):
endlessly just funding, you know, these new ways of articulating
the same realization that I'mtrying to get out to people,
because I see, this is medicine,you know, is that one of the
ways of really protectingyourself against what he go is
to be who you actually are, isto be in touch with your nature.
Well, that's such a clichethough.
What does that mean?

(23:35):
Yeah, and I point out well,what is our nature?
Our nature, by its very nature,is creative, and so when you
have the realization of yournature, you embody and express
yourself creatively, and themore you do that, the deeper you
have the realization of yournature in a positive feedback
loop that creates light uponlight.
And that's why you know I wassaying before when what he go,

(23:59):
you know, which is thecounterfeiting spirit it offers
us a false version of yourtraumatized or whatever you know
of who you are.
And I said, yeah, if we're notawake and we identify with its
version, then it has us.
But if we at that moment areawake, you know that false
version, we see through thatillusion and it even deepens our
realization of who we are, andyou know.

(24:22):
So that's really what this isall about, that any of us
individually can reallystabilize and to deepen our, you
know, experience of our nature,and then, in a way, we're
embodying the medicine, becausethat becomes contagious and then
that can go viral.

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Absolutely.
I 100% agree with that.
Yeah, I've experienced that aswell.
The creative aspect when we tapinto that, we do begin to
really connect with ourauthentic self, which is true
for us.
And also, you know, you kind ofexperience yourself in
different ways more, and in thatinnocence, you know, like that

(25:02):
connecting with the innocencewithin through your creative
powers, you know, and throughthose creative expressions, I
feel like is is the way to getto know yourself, especially if
you haven't really, you know, ifyou've just been going through
the motions or identifying toomuch with, you know, some trauma
and those kinds of things, andI haven't been stuck in that,

(25:24):
you know.
So it's opening yourself up tosomething greater.
You know more than just likeyou're saying that limited kind
of, you know, suffocating self.
You know that you're so muchmore than that.
Yeah, we have.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
What I point out again and again in my books is
that we, each one of us, youknow the one hand, we all are
have been conditioned to feelpowerless or helpless with
what's happening in the world.
Oh, there are eight billion ofus, only one person, you know.
And that's really dangerouswhen you fall into that place of
despair and pessimism andhelplessness.
But I point out again and againthat each one of us has this

(26:02):
unimaginably vast creative power.
And I'll give you an examplelike, say, if you know, people
come to me and they'll say, oh,I'm not creative or I'm not in
touch with my creativity, or I'mblocked or feel resistance or
stuck or whatever.
And I get that.
I mean, you know, any creativeperson has to navigate that

(26:24):
feeling of resistance.
I mean that's part of the wholegig.
But you know, I try to pointout to people because we're
creating our experience everymoment, by the way we're
interpreting what's happening bythe meaning we're placing on
the waking implant.
And I try to point out topeople well, you're so
incredibly creative that you're,for some reason, you've chosen

(26:44):
to access and express yourcreativity to create the
experience of not being creative.
And you're so unbelievably sucha creative genius that you will
literally conjure up theexperience of not being creative
and then that will.
Then you'll identify with thatand thinking oh, I'm just not
creative.
Not realizing that itself is anexpression of your creative

(27:04):
policy.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Absolutely yeah, and we do.
We create every day.
When you wake up in the morning, you create your morning.
You know ritual.
You decorate your house.
You know you get dressed andyou have a schedule.
That's all of.
You're creating all of thatright.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Exactly, exactly.
There's no one else doing that,you're doing that yourself.
And that's where it involvesreally taking ownership and
having the realization of ohwell, I'm responsible for
creating my experience.
You know and like, for example,if something seemingly you know
dark or challenging happens,you know, like people who might

(27:47):
be just absorbed in their youknow, in their unconscious,
might, you know, right awayinterpreted as like, oh, this
negative thing, I'm victimizedand you know it's a bad thing,
but like somebody who might bemore in touch with their nature,
might be like, oh, wow, this istriggering me and it's painful.
Wow, this is like showing mesomething about myself.

(28:09):
Oh, my God, this is teaching meabout an unconscious part.
And it's the same experience,but it's a different way of
interpreting it.
And you know, in TibetanBuddhism there's, there are
these things called the hiddentreasures, the, the terma, and
it's a real thing.
One of the lineage I dopractice to you that's how the
lineage keeps itself fresh overthe centuries is that all of a

(28:31):
sudden, you know there'll bethese revelations, and they'll
talk about it in terms of, ohyeah, these terma, these hidden
treasures, are hidden and coatedwithin the universe, you know,
and within our minds, and all ofa sudden, something might
happen.
You might, somebody might saysomething and all of a sudden
some, like a, like a key,opening up a lock.

(28:52):
You'll some of these people whodiscover these termas.
All of a sudden, they'll see asyllable and 20 volumes of text
will just come out of their mindand they'll transcribe it.
And these texts are like theseliberating words that other
practitioners will when theyread them.
It's contagious and they'llhave, you know, hidden treasures

(29:12):
open up in their mind.
And you know that's such aninteresting and it's a real
thing.
You know it's not just afairytale.
You know scholars study thisand I've written about it and
you know it's all throughout mywork.
And I point out that you knowbeing being like a dream, this
universe.
Well, what happens when we getone sided in a dream?

(29:35):
The unconscious compensates ourone sidedness by sending a
symbols.
That that's the language ofdreams, that if we get in
alignment with the symbol, allof a sudden we get back in
balance.
And I'm pointing out that whenyou see this universe is
dreamlike and it's very magical.
You know there are certainhidden treasures that are coming

(29:57):
out, like quantum physics, Ipoint out, you know is a modern
day, analog to this idea, ofthis Tibetan Buddhist idea of
Terma, that it actually is likea compensation for the one
sidedness of the scientific sortof materialist point of view.
That here quantum physics islike is like the medicine for
that.

(30:18):
And because when you recognize,like, so what is quantum physics
saying?
Not only that there's nothingobjective, but that the act of
observing the universe actuallyinfluences the universe observed
.
That's a description of a dream.
And when you really see, that'sthe rabbit hole, when you
realize that you discover, oh myGod, my act of observation is
creative.

(30:38):
I'm not just a passive observerobserving the separate world
out there, no, but my act ofobserving it, just like a dream,
is creating the universe Iobserve.
So the act of observation iscreative.
You see, that's where quantumphysics is, and this is the most
hardcore, rigorous science.
It's showing us we have thisunbelievable creative agency

(31:01):
that we've been unconscious of.
And you know, say, for example,if somebody came into my office
today and they shared a dreamthey had last night, and the
dream was exactly what'shappening in the world, where,
oh, there was just a pandemicand and then all our liberties
are being taken away, andthere's these, this fascist
energy that's creeping all overthe world and you know, and they

(31:22):
would be describing the dream,which is exactly what's been
happening in our world.
And if they asked me well, youknow, help me to interpret it I
would say well, it's clear thatyou're not in touch with your
creative agency, that you'veoutsourced it, and then the
powers that be of the state orwhoever, are more than happy to
assume you're a creative agencyand use it against you.

(31:43):
And what the dream is showingyou is that you need to get more
consciously in touch with yourcreative power.
And that's really all of ourdream, that each one of us.
And that's why, if I didn't,you know, with all the trauma
and the abuse I went throughwith my father and with
psychiatric hospital, it couldhave killed me, it could have
made, it could have disabled me,you know, and I would have.

(32:05):
I was in deep, deep trouble andthen, as soon as I got out of
that last hospital in 82, Ibegan having, night after night,
the most incredible dreams andthey were showing what was
happening and then I beganrecognizing in the dreams that I
was dreaming and having luciddreams and connecting with my
dreams in that way saved me.
It, actually and it was it wasshowing me the, giving me this

(32:29):
initiation into my own creativepower.
So if I didn't connect withbeing a creative person and the
main medium that I expressedmyself is with my books, you
know, if I didn't connect withyou know, just, oh yeah, I'm a
creative person, like we all areI would have been in deep, deep
trouble.
And I'm 100% convinced.

(32:51):
The same is true for all of us,to the extent that any of us
are, you know, really familiar,you know, with our creative
process.
That's the extent that it'slike oxygen for the soul, it's
like we're accessing medicine.
But if we're not in touch withour creative power, I don't.
That's like a nightmare andthat's why I call it, like I

(33:12):
call it, to go in the subtitlethe nightmare mind virus,
because it will createnightmares both at night and
then our waking dream, as isevidenced all around us.
You know, in one final thing,like people, I make a joke.
I say, yeah, you know, if I hada publicity department, they
couldn't, and I do, but it's,you know, it's just a normal

(33:33):
publisher publicity department.
But if I had a global publicitydepartment, they cannot do a
better job and publicizing mywork Then, in what's happening
in the world.
You know, and if people think,so many people when I wrote my
first what's he?
Co-book in 2013 that gotpublished, people over the years
are like oh my god, you wereprescient, you were telling the

(33:54):
future, how did you know?
And I was like no, no, I'm notat all.
I was just tuning into thedeeper archetypal, you know,
sort of like matrix that wasinforming and giving shape to
what was happening.
It was just, you know, cuzartists are like the canary in
the coal mine, they're givingvoice, you know, to what's
beginning to happen in thecollective unconscious.

(34:16):
And, yeah, and it's just beenmore and more like, more and
more people are like oh yeah,your work maybe was a little bit
ahead of its time, but now moreand more people are getting.
You know, more and more peopleare talking about a mind virus.
You know they're using thatterm and it's just obvious that
the source of what's happeningin our world, all the craziness,

(34:37):
all the evil, is to be foundwithin our minds.
That's the whole idea of whatI'm pointing at.

Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, yeah, cuz our minds are.
In my experience, people wantthe attention of our mind
constantly, right?
Social media, it's like I heardthis guy described this the
other day.
He's like a big scrollingthrough social media is like
reading just like the first bitof the first chapter of a book,

(35:05):
and then reading another one,and another one, and another one
.
You know, it's just kind oflike it really trains your brain
to not be able to really focuson what matters to you and so,
right, yeah, it's just reallywhat we're training ourselves to
do right now.
It's just insane, right.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
And just a short attention spanthat so many, particularly of
the younger generation, have isof, you know, just reading like
stuff on Twitter, like so manypeople, you know, after they get
out of high school or college.
They don't ever even you know,the idea of of reading a book is
foreign to them.
And you know, in one daybecause I'm really fortunate and

(35:47):
then I have these greatteachers, and One day I was with
them, I was with one of themfor breakfast and they just
spontaneously said to me goes,you know, my whole practice is
to not get distracted.
You know, and what he means isthat, yeah, he has this living
experience of his nature and hejust doesn't forget, he just

(36:09):
arrests and abides in and asthat and everything gets
integrated through thatviewpoint.
You know where there is endlessdistractions in our world.
And you know, and what I pointout and this is just you know
really, you know TibetanBuddhism or you know Every
wisdom tradition is pointing atit is, yeah, you become a little

(36:31):
bit familiar with your nature.
You know with your nature, whatis our nature?
It's creative, it's love, it'scompassion.
In Buddhism it's called thebodhichitta, the precious
bodhichitta, which is that themost you know, that's like the
highest value that thepractitioner starts with.
You have to cultivate thebodhichitta, which is just a
good heart and oh, the heartfilled with love and compassion.

(36:52):
And they say, yeah, you startwhen you begin practice as a
beginner, that's what you startto cultivate and then, when you
become enlightened, that's whatyou get is the good heart, the
precious bodhichitta.
You know and you know, andthat's where compassion is
really the dissolver of what hego par excellence.
Because compassion really is aresult of snapping out of the

(37:16):
spell of the separate self andseeing that all we're, all dream
characters were allInterconnected, that we, we,
actually, I depend on all ofeveryone for my well-being and
vice versa.
And when you realize that, youknow, then just in a natural way
, compassion arises.
And and what he go?

(37:37):
It like compassion is likekryptonite.
So what he go?
It has no place to stand whencompassion is really there.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
Yeah, it's that's, it's the, it's a compassion,
it's this self acceptance whichneutralizes the power it has
over people, right in a way.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because what Tico, in a way it
feeds off of like Self-hatred.
Or then, if I'm not in touchwith my own shadow you know the
psychological sort of thisdynamic that underlies what he
go I point out, his shadowprojection is scapegoating.
So if I'm not in touch with myown shadow, you know what
happens.
I project it out and andinterestingly you know, in his

(38:17):
work Young call shadowprojection the lie.
And the lie who's the liar?
It's the devil.
And the idea is, is that shadowprojection is, you know, is the
actual Shadow in action?
Because then we sort of try toexterminate our own shadow or
own darkness.
We unconsciously project it outthere.

(38:39):
And think about a dream ifyou're projecting at your own
darkness, out there Into thedream will walk people who carry
your projection, who embody theshadow, and then, oh, you see
they really are evil.
And so then you get even moreinterest in that viewpoint that
the darkness exists outside ofyourself as a way of making
yourself feel good and righteousand all light.
And by doing that, you know,when you amplify that process,

(39:04):
you you go to war with thatperson because you're actually
trying to exterminate your owndarkness.
And what I'm describing isthat's an inner process
happening in your psyche thatyou're playing out in the outer
world.
Because what he goes, an innerdisease of the soul that has a
magical ability to somehowextend itself out into the world
and To express itself via outerevents.

(39:26):
And that's just like a dream,where the outer world is
reflecting Synchronisticallywhat's happening in the inner
psyche of the dreamer.
And by then trying to destroythat person who's embodying your
own darkness, you then becomepossessed by the very evil that
you're trying to destroy.
And and that's a way,psychologically speaking, of

(39:46):
understanding how this works.
You know, and I'm just trying topoint out in as many ways as I
can imagine, because what he gocan't stand to be seen, it's a
form of blindness and whenpeople see it, it becomes
unemployed.
It has no power over us when wesee how what a covertly
operates by by, you know,informing and giving shape to

(40:06):
events in our world, theexternal world, and by how it,
you know, effects our reactionsunconsciously in our minds.
But when you begin to see that,you take away its power and you
become empowered, you know.
So that's why what you go, it'sa trickster.
It'll do everything in, yeah,to hide itself from being seen.

(40:29):
And I'm just saying, yeah, weneed to factor all of this into
our equation, we need tounderstand how it works.
Every spiritual tradition I knowthey talk about you know the
profound importance ofconnecting with our true nature.
But they say but before you dothat, you have to become
conscious of what is that darkerforce in our minds that's
seemingly obscuring us?

(40:49):
That if you don't realize that,you know, then you have no way,
you can't protect your truenature If you're asleep to the
seeming darker powers in theunconscious that are seemingly
against us.
You know, and, uh, it's likeyour blind spot.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly,exactly, and that's why he goes.

(41:12):
A form of blindness, itoperates through our blind spots
in a way that it that thenentrances us.
That's the whole thing, and I'mtrying to point out it.
When you set light on that,then you become incredibly
empowered.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, and I was, and I kind of laughed a little bit
when you were talking about thetrickster, because I I just have
experienced that, like howtricky it can be, you know, and
it's so funny how theseinterviews go, because I will
think a question and then you'll, you will answer it without me
even having that casket, andthat's what just happened, which

(41:47):
was beautiful.
I want to bring up with whatyou just shared, the, the topic
of spiritual bypassing or in the, in the spiritual world that's
become really and you hadmentioned this from an
experience you had with thiswoman in your book and Dreaming
with Tico, I think was the onewhere I remember reading that
and then how some people in thespiritual communities becoming

(42:10):
more and more, we were just like, no, we're not gonna look at
the dark, we're just gonna bethe light and and pretend that
it's not there, and then thatreally, like you're saying,
really feeds it more if you'renot.
Yeah, you know, you'reacknowledging that you have that
within you.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
No, I have that I so have such insight into that,
because you know, I mean, we'reboth in Portland and you know
the big spiritual bookstore intown and you know I've been on
the faculty for years, they'llknow me and but they will not
carry my what Tico books becauseit has evil in the subtitle or
something like that and they'reall love and light and there's

(42:45):
nothing I can do.
You know they're just like youknow it, so interesting and and
and.
And I know because one of myfriends was an employee there.
So he would tell me theconversations that would happen
during their meetings and andyou know he was, he was the
lobby for bringing in my withTico books and the owners were
like having none of it.
They didn't, they wouldn't evenwant them, you know, in the

(43:08):
store at all and I would.
And I know they're thinking.
They're thinking is, oh, wedon't want to like put any
attention on evil because thatfeeds it.
And that's true up to a certainpoint.
But if we're avoiding, like tolook at evil, at the darkness,
at the shadow, we're actuallywhat we're doing.

(43:29):
We're avoiding Relationshipwith a darker part of ourselves,
we're turning a blind eye likean ostrich and that feeds what
Tico, by doing that, of course,what we don't want to do, on the
contrary, has become overlyfascinated by evil.
No, that that's really feedingthe evil too.
But I'm pointing out no, there'sno way around.

(43:49):
We have to see it, you know,because remember what he goes to
form blindness that operates tothe blind spots.
When we see it, how it works inthe world, how it works in our
own minds, then, as a sovereignbeing, we can choose, saying
okay, I see you, and now I getto choose where I place my
attention and I want to investmy attention in creating the

(44:10):
world I want to live in.
See, that's once again, that'skryptonite to what Tico and so,
yeah, I see this.
It makes me so sad that reallywell intentioned, very bright,
good, open-hearted people, youknow, just do the spiritual
bypassing thing and it's tragic.
It really is sad.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
Yeah, absolutely, and with that I would.
I want to bring up the topic.
I don't know if you haveexperienced much of this, but
with the whole, there's beenthis Channeling movement.
Like all of a sudden, peoplewant to be channelers in the
spiritual community and and thatyou know I I'm not it, I'm not
unfamiliar with channeling.

(44:49):
I used to really like you knowa, a ram Hicks, and you know all
the, you know the 90, thepeople in the 90s, and they're
in really 2000s and all that.
But I kind of feel different.
I really, over the years, have,you know, created more
spiritual maturity and like seeit different now.
And I see it as it's not ajudgment against them, because
you know there's some reallygood stuff that they shared, but

(45:12):
also I see it almost as an abat.
You're kind of abandoningyourself to let something else
come in right.
Yeah thinking to myself why,why don't you feel powerful
enough to just share it fromyour?

Speaker 2 (45:25):
perspective.
You know, it's really funnybecause there was one friend of
mine, a good friend, and I wasdescribing you know, with my
books, you, the way I say it, Igo, I just become an instrument,
you know, an open instrumentfor something to come through.
And then, after that I'vewritten it, I'll read what I
wrote and I'll be like, wow,this is really good.

(45:47):
Who wrote this?
Cause I'm not identified.
And one friend of mine said oh,it sounds like you're
channeling.
And I'm like, said to her I go,well, I'm.
Actually, if I'm channelinganything, it's myself.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
And you know.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
And the thing is, you know, I mean, channeling is a
real phenomena.
You know, it's a genuinephenomena.
I mean, I'm friends with theguy who wrote the definitive
book on channeling, so I know alittle bit about it and I go
back to the work of young.
He points out, when we channel,you know, or hear a voice or

(46:21):
feel the spirit coming throughus, he goes.
It's incredibly important todiscern is it from the left
stream or the right stream?
In other words, is it the voiceof wisdom or of God, or is it
the deceiver, is it the devil?
Is it, you know?
Is it what he go?
And a lot of people I know whochannel, they don't, they
haven't developed theirdiscernment Cause one of the
things what he go does, itdisables our discernment and you

(46:45):
know to develop discrimination,differentiation, discernment
that feeds consciousness, thatfeeds the expansion of
consciousness.
So no, I'm right with you, andthat's another thing that makes
me sad that a lot of people whoare plugging into something, but
if they don't have thediscernment, you know, then they
could be unwilling inchanneling something that might

(47:07):
not be coming from like thehighest place, that could have
like a real negative effect onpeople.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, I agree, yeah, and I agree with what you said
about writing, because I've hadthe same experience writing my
book.
I just was writing and not eventhinking about it, was just
coming through and I think thatyou know, yes, we do have a lot
of energetic support there mightbe, you know, we may have
guides we may have a connectionto, we have a connection to

(47:33):
source, you know, and our higherself.
You know it comes maybe fromthe higher mind, but I think
that and again, like no judgmentfor people, but I think people
I brought it up because I feellike people are just jumping
right into it without whatyou're saying the discernment it
takes to really, you know, beable to do that, yeah, and the

(47:56):
thing is, you know what you justsaid.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
it brought to mind, you know, because I'm really
into, you know, studying young.
I mean, when I found his workit saved my life because I was
having these completely out ofthe ordinary experiences.
And you know, when I knew Iwasn't crazy but I was trying to
contextualize it.
And then I found the work ofyoung and in his like, for
example, in his autobiography,you know, there's a chapter of

(48:19):
the confrontation with theunconscious and he was
describing his experiences and Irealized, oh my God, he's like
articulating exactly what I'vebeen going through.
So that really really helped meand you know.
So what he was really after inthe therapy that he devised was

(48:41):
connecting people with theirinner guidance.
He had the living experiencethat there was an inner guide in
his psyche that, on one level,was part of himself but on
another level was some sort ofhigher dimensional seeming
entity that knew stuff that noone was teaching him.
It was his, it was like hisinner guide.

(49:03):
And you know, and that'sexactly what he was trying to
get across in the type oftherapy he created and he calls
it the ego, self-axis, that inother words, the ego who we
think we are, you know ourconscious identification all of
a sudden, like getting into anintimate relationship.

(49:24):
You develop an intimaterelationship with the self, with
the higher self, with yourtotality, with your wholeness,
and you more and more have this,like, you know, dialogue and
relationship, to the point where, instead of just being totally
opposite, they more and more, bybecoming intimate, you know,
ultimately they fuse and becomeone.

(49:45):
You know, and that's just ahypothetical, if that ever
happens, you know.
But and that totally makessense to me, because even when I
write my books, you know, Iwrite in the morning and I wake
up and I'm brushing my teeth andI'm getting downloads about
what to write about, and I'velearned to differentiate between
what is the voice of just sortof like you know, the neurotic

(50:07):
monkey mind that I just need toignore.
That has a different energeticsignature than when I'm getting
a voice from, you know, my innerguide, and it's telling me what
I'm gonna write about, how I'mgonna write about it, and I've
learned to pay attention,because then I'm like employee
and I'm getting the dictate fromthe boss and I've really
learned oh, I need to honor thatand that's what I mean.

(50:29):
When then I go to write and allof a sudden like something is
coming through me that I'm justa vehicle for you know.

Speaker 1 (50:36):
And when.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
I do that.
It's profoundly healing for me,you know, and it's real
medicine.
And that's what this is allabout is for us to connect.
We all have an inner guide, butwe become so conditioned and
programmed to sort of push it tothe margins and ignore it,
particularly in thismaterialistic, scientific
materialistic culture that, oh,it can't be measured, it's not

(50:58):
quantifiable, it's not real.
But what Jung says is what'sreal.
He talks about the reality ofthe psyche.
That that's the greatestdiscovery of the 20th century in
the realm of psychology.
And what's real is what has aneffect, is what works.
And when you connect with yourinner guide and you treat it as
if it's really real, well thenit'll have very real, these

(51:21):
life-transforming effects, youknow.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Yeah, yeah.
So I find that much of what Iexperience sometimes doesn't
even have a word to describe it,you know, like it's just an
energy right.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Right, it's ineffable , it's a mystery, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:39):
Yeah, yeah and yes, I agree with what you're saying.
Like a lot of times I get mydownloads in the shower, I'm
brushing my teeth or doing thedishes when I'm not like really
thinking, or Right.
About anything right?
I mean, yeah, it's pretty cool,and then I have to stop and
write something down before itjust goes.
But yeah, it's really kind of,when you relax and you let go

(52:04):
and you're not trying so hard,then I think that's when it
comes, right.
No, that happens to me a lot.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
I'll be like I'm like in the middle of an article on
writing and I'm like, oh, how doI solve this problem?
And I don't know.
And then I just go and sit inmeditation and in like a minute
they'll just the answer will bethere.
And it reminds me when I wentto the Institute for Advanced
Studies for a visit.
That's where Einstein and theyjust basically took all these
geniuses and put them togetherwithout any responsibilities.

(52:32):
They didn't have to teach, theyjust wanted to have them hang
out and see if they could reallytap into stuff.
And the thing I remember in theback of the Institute was this
woods where, like Einstein,would go for a walk and every
hundred feet they would havelike a little pad of paper
nailed on to a tree with apencil, because they didn't want
Einstein or whoever to behaving this revelation and not

(52:56):
be able to like coagulate it.
You know, in alchemy one of themajor stages is coagulatio, is
to coagulate, to take the dreamor the vision, to take the
spirit and turn it into earth,turn it into something.
And that, you know, brings tomind the importance of being the
artist, because the artist issomebody who tunes in.

(53:16):
Think about that hiddentreasure.
They tune in to the potential,you know, that's there in the
quantum field and they're ableto somehow symbolize it in
whatever medium they do, youknow, in a way that then gets
transmitted to other people.
You know, and that's what I'mreally, really hopeful, because
I feel like so many people are,you know, tuning in because of

(53:42):
times like this, of such extremeinsanity and darkness and
tension, creative tension, thatsomething's available to us, you
know, because there's suchpressure in our alchemical
vessels of our psyche that someof us are able to tune in and
bring forth something creativethat can be incredibly

(54:02):
psychoactivating and can have anincredible effect on all of us
and, like I'm saying, that cango viral and that can actually
catalyze a real deeper awakeningin our species.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Yeah, yeah, many people are talking about this,
that and it's going to behappening within all of us.
I believe this huge massawakening, you know, and I you
know, as you were talking, itreminded me that when we're
taking in these higher aspectsof ourself, we're actually
bringing into form through thebody.

(54:34):
We're embodying that throughour expressions, but also
physically, you know.
So I think our bodies arechanging as we embody more of
these higher aspects of ourselftoo, but I think it hasn't until
now, just because we didn'trealize we could do that before.
And so now, as we realize weare the creators, we can

(54:54):
transmute the energy Like webecome, like you're saying that
transmitter to Light otherpeople up and well one.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
This brings to mind that there is really Not a
difference between the mind andthe body, you know?

Speaker 1 (55:10):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Yeah, you can't really separate that out.
And this is the synchronisticidea that young came up with,
where it took him over 20 yearsof tracking this before he was
courageous enough to publish hiswork because it was so out of
the accepted paradigm.
You know that the world isobjective and you know the
physical is separate from themental right, but you know he

(55:31):
had the rotation.
No, no, there's some sort ofdeeper Interconnectedness
between what's going on in ourpsyches and what's playing out
in the world.
Then, at those particularmoments of synchronicity, it's
like a fissure in in that veilwhere all of a sudden, this,
this unified field, or the onusMundus, the one world that's the
phrase he would use is actuallyrevealing itself.

(55:53):
And what that means is that thedreamlike nature is Showing
itself to us through thosesynchronistic phenomena.
And the thing which is wild isthat you know and I'll talk to
my materialist friends andthey're just like, oh, that's
just accidental, that'scoincidental.
But you know, the more we havemoments like that, where we see

(56:16):
the interfacing, you know,between psyche, you know, or
spirit, or the mind and matter,that the two aren't separable,
the more we actually take thatin and have experiences like
that and take that online intoour psyche, the more
synchronicities we have.
You know, and I'm going topoint out that in in the

(56:37):
undreaming, what he called,there's a big chapter on on
synchronicities and I point outthat to develop the
synchronicity awareness you know, and that's the step out of you
know, that sort of bifurcationof mind and matter and of us as
separate selves, you know, themore we establish ourselves in
that Synchronicity awareness oranother way of saying it,

(56:57):
symbolic awareness, becausesymbols being the language of
dreams, so we can interpret ourwaking life as if it's a dream,
that the universe is an oracle,the more we establish ourselves
in that viewpoint, the morewe're able to naturally dispel
what he come.
Yeah, and and be more naturaland are in inner true nature
like you, like you said beforeright, because the thing about
what he go, when it really Getsin and it's in the collective

(57:21):
unconscious, so we all have anpotential, you know.
I mean, think about it.
We've all who hasn't falleninto their unconscious and acted
stuff out.
You know, we all have.
You know, so if I think, oh,that person has what he go and I
don't, you know, that point ofview is showing, I wonder, the
spell of what he go.
But the what, what happens whensomebody, you know, in a way,

(57:41):
unconsciously becomes identifiedwith a what he go or taken over
by it.
They become like a robot, theybecome totally programmed, like
an automaton.
You know, think about AI, ai,yeah, yeah, and they become like
an embodiment of this, thisrobotic.
They're just a series ofprogram responses with no

(58:02):
creativity, you know, programmedin.
And that's why, you know, whenI meet people who have an open
heart or really creative or intouch with their soul, which is
something, it's a palpablefeeling they're like embodying,
you know, like what it's like tosort of be what he go, free,
you know, as compared to people.

(58:23):
You know, I think of my father.
He would, he would saysomething in a particular, you
know, situation, like 25 yearsearlier and then fast forward 25
years and you know the samesituation would happen and he
would literally be like a, likea play button just got hit on
the tape recorder.
He would just literally say thesame words he said in response
25 years ago.
And that was.

(58:43):
He was just completelyprogrammed and he had no idea.
You know he was.
So that's the thing you knowwhen I say it's an inner disease
of the soul that actually has amagical ability to extend
itself in the world andconfigure events to reflect back
the inner state of the psyche.
You know it's like.
You know it's so much.

(59:05):
You know where the innerbecomes the outer, where we are
literally playing out our innerUnconscious on healed abuse.
It's getting dreamed up andit's playing out in the world,
but it's revealing itself to uslike it's the quantum, it's the
superposition of states, whereit's like the problem, it's the
pathology, but it's also showingus our Unconscious and of

(59:28):
course, once again, you know,everything depends on, you know,
if we recognize what's beingshown to us.

Speaker 1 (59:36):
Yeah, it's a gift.
If you look at it like that,you know to be able to see that
for yourself.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but don't recognize the gift and it
just assumes its programresponse of destroying Right,
right yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah, well, my goodness, yeah, it's kind of
like the.
It does remind me of like an AItechnology that doesn't have
any consciousness, so much, butyou know, maybe just yeah, yeah,
yeah, and that's why theimportance, that's why that's
why the importance of for us toreally connect with our nature,
with our heart, with our soul,with our creativity, with our

(01:00:09):
love and our Compassion.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
You know, and and don't underestimate the power of
compassion.
You know, like it's the nuclearenergy.
You know, because it's a realdanger to get to fall.
It's so seductive andconvincing to fall into
pessimism.
Oh, we're going to hell in ahandbasket and Judgment you, you
know, yeah, yeah and judgmenttoo right.
But the idea is we hold apessimistic point of view, being

(01:00:32):
like a dream, we're just gonnaattract evidence confirming our
viewpoint, you know.
So then we'll fix in ourviewpoint of pessimism and then
we're part of the problem, thenwe're not, we can't be part of
the solution, you know.
But to see, for example,quantum physics points this out
really clearly the elementarypart.
So quantum physics was tryingto find the microstructure of
what this world was made of,like, what are the building

(01:00:53):
blocks of the universe.
And you know, as they went down, you know, and more sort of
like, you know, in scale, they,they, they realized oh, there's
nothing physical at the bottom,it's, it's, it's something
having to do with consciousnessand the way they would
understand it.
There are these elementaryparticles that exist, that had
existed in the state ofpotentiality Up until the moment

(01:01:16):
they were observed, and so inevery, in any possible state,
they existed in potentiality.
And then the moment ofobservation, the wave function
collapses and then one of thepotentialities would actualize
and manifest and all the otherpossibilities would, they would
vaporize, like into paralleluniverses.
But the point is, and what thequantum physicists were saying

(01:01:38):
was that that means, and this islike pretty much a quote, that
even if something isRidiculously and highly unlikely
, it could still manifest thisvery moment.
Now, just to do a commentary onthat, that is to say that at
this very moment we could have aquantum leap and or and there
would be a sufficient number ofus in our world who are

(01:01:58):
awakening To the quantum nature,the dreamlike nature is seeing
what he go, recognize in theshadow.
They're, you know, expressingthemselves creatively.
A lot of ways of saying thesame thing Any one of us might
be, you know, like.
I'll just say like share, likeone of the beautiful images
young used when you had a glassof water and you put dissolved

(01:02:19):
sugar in the water.
It would just dissolve anddissolve each grain of sugar.
Then it reaches a saturationpoint.
You had one more grain and acrystal manifests.
And he would say that's the waysymbols, you know, crystallize
in our psyche and any one of us,maybe even in this moment, you
know, awakening to whateverdegree could be that grain of

(01:02:40):
sugar, that crystallizes aglobal awakening in the
collective unconscious.
But then the quantum physicistswould say, even the idea that
our species could awaken, andyou know, in this moment,
because that's in the realm ofthe possible, even though it
sounds highly and ridiculouslyunlikely.
It could be this very moment.

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
That happens.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
And if you're not thinking that, if you're not
envisioning that and you're likein trans bipesimism, saying, oh
, that you're just magicalthinking and new age and all
that, then you're part of theproblem.
So just that's so inspiring tohold out that the hardest core
of the hardcore sciences aresaying, no, it's completely
within our realm, because wealready have the solution, we

(01:03:26):
are the solution.
It's like we have thephilosopher stone, the holy
grail we're in, but not only arewe in possession of it, we are
it in alchemy.
They say no, the idea isn't tofind the philosopher stone, the
idea is to become it, and wealready are it.
We just don't recognize that.
And when enough of us see thatand maybe even one person,
because what young is saying isthat the way to heal this world

(01:03:47):
situation?
It's not by politics orlegislation or laws.
No, we as individuals are thecarriers of what's happening in
the world, and so any one of usdoing our inner work and
shedding light on our you see,if we don't shed light on our
darkness inside, there's no waywe're going to be able to deal
with the darkness in the world.

(01:04:07):
But when we shed light on ourown shadow, that empowers us to
be able to know how to navigateEvil when it plays out in the
world, and so that's a veryinspiring, you know, sort of
this vision, not just young.
So many people have had thatover the centuries and it can be
really inspiring.
And it's not people out ofthat's that you know that curse

(01:04:29):
of pessimism.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Yeah, I love that.
Thanks for sharing that, paul.
That Is an example of I forgetthis too sometimes that to
remind myself everything canchange in an instant and we, we,
we just forgot who we are.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
That's what happened for me when I was saying I had
this awakening in 1981.
I didn't realize this because Ihad no context, but but years
later I realized, oh my god, I Iparticipated in a quantum jump.
You know, we're like as I wasin one world that I lived in 24
years.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
Is that the same as a timeline, timeline jump, a
quantum jump?
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
I think I think that's the same thing, an
equivalent term, because whathappened?
For 24 years I was living in,you know, the ordinary
mainstream reality where certainthings were possible and
certain things were impossible.
All of a sudden, I began havingthese experiences and this
world looked exactly the same,but it was radically different
because all of a sudden, therealm of the possible had
expanded to unimaginable degrees.

(01:05:27):
And then it's taken me over 40years of integrating what was
being revealed and I'm just sograteful that I didn't buy into,
you know, for a moment.
Like, so, if psychiatry, theywere completely trying to
convince me, you know that I wasmentally ill, that I needed
medication, blah, blah, blah,and.
And they took my saying no, no,no, that's not at all what's

(01:05:47):
happening, as just, oh, that'san expression of my pathology.
But say, if I did step intotheir timeline and if I did say,
oh, yes, I'm mentally ill andI'm like needing to be on
medication the rest of my life,well, from their point of view,
it would have been oh wow, we'vehad another successful
treatment.
You know, the patient hascomplied to our viewpoint and it

(01:06:09):
would have killed me.
So what is wrong with thatpicture, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
I'll say this real quickbecause this all reminds me of
Uh, yeah, I've experienced thattoo.
I've just everything changesovernight and it's like wait a
minute, this feels different, iteven things look different.
Okay, sorry, a little pausethere.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, itreminds me of the man Do you

(01:06:34):
remember, do you know the authorof the book the man in the High
Castle?
Yeah, philip K Dick.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Oh, I love in my in the Whatiko book there's a big
chapter on.
Philip K Dick was totallytracking Whatiko.
He called it the Black IronPrison and he literally said the
key to everything isunderstanding this mimicking
stuff.
Yeah, Whatiko is a mimic,Remember, it impersonates us, it
puts us on.
So, yeah, no, I'm super intoPhilip K Dick.

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
And I remember hearing something about like he
actually did go to that actualtimeline, he experienced it and
he came back into this one and Idon't know if that's true or
not, but I thought that was sointeresting because I was like,
wow, okay, that gives me adifferent perspective on how
this whole thing works, you know, because I have experience like

(01:07:21):
stepping into but like, okay,because you, sometimes I'll I'll
say this real quick because Iknow we're coming up, we've,
we're past the hour now, but Ijust I've talked to people and I
know that they remember.
I mean, it's like they have toremember that this, but they
don't.
And it's like sometimes I'mlike wait a minute, am I in a

(01:07:42):
different timeline?
Because everything it feelslike people have amnesia.
You know about what?

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Right, Well, that's the thing about amnesia.
There's a word and amnesia.
Which makes it unforgettable,you know and things they say in
Buddhism.
They'll have these greatenlightened beings who attain
enlightenment in one lifetime,and then they'll consciously
choose to incarnate, you know,instead of just by being.
You know the images instead ofa normal person, they die and

(01:08:10):
they're just the winds of karmajust blow them here and there
and they just incarnate based ontheir unhealed karma and
enlightened person.
You know, they can, consciouslythey can.
They can choose and direct.
Oh, I'm going to incarnate backin this universe, you know, and
help other people to awaken.
But one of the things that'smost interesting well, one of my
teachers is is like you knowthat incarnation and he was

(01:08:34):
telling me yeah, it's likehaving dreams on the course of
an evening and you havedifferent dreams.
And then one dream you're a 67year old male.
On another dream you're like a20 year old woman.
He goes imagine if you keep thecontinuity of your awareness
between those dreams at night.
That's like keeping thecontinuity of awareness between
your incarnations and and.
But one of the things that'smost interesting they say with

(01:08:57):
those beings who incarnate andthey were enlightened in the
last life, they're able to.
When you know, when they gettaught stuff, they're able to
learn really quickly becausethey're just remembering what
they already knew.
You know that.
That just really speaks to me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:12):
Me too.
Me too.
Well, thank you, Paul, Beforewe close up, do you have any
last words you want to share,especially about the next year
we're coming into?
Do you have any any take orfeeling about what we're
stepping in?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
So I would just say you know so what's happening in
the world.
It's so intense, it's unlikeanything that we've ever lived
through, and the image of busycreates incredible creative
tension, like the tension of theopposites in our mind, in the
alchemical vessel of our psyche,is getting, you know, very,
very intense.

(01:09:47):
And instead of, like you know,there are people I know who just
become numb or just they'llsplit and dissociate or just try
to make the best of it.
If we have the inner strengthor the courage, whatever the
quality is to be able to juststay with that tension, that
creative tension that's gettingconsolated in us, and to hold

(01:10:08):
that with awareness and to notprematurely just identify with
one of the opposites at theexpense of the other, to get
away from that pain, becauseit's a very, it can be, you know
, an agonizing experience.
But if there is, if you're ableto hold that and this is kind of
my practice, I do this withvarying degrees of success every
day then out of that and onceagain here's young he says out

(01:10:32):
of that comes the transcendentvision, in other words, whose
function is helping us totranscend, and all of a sudden
we begin to have a vision thatwe as an ego, didn't think of
like something.
We have this revelation or aninsight, and that's where we can
step into our creative selvesand express that in whatever
form we do.

(01:10:52):
And I just think, when thepandemic happened and the
lockdown first happened, youknow, I would typically write an
article every month or two.
I was writing a full articleevery day because I was so
freaked out, you know, andrealizing, god, what's happening
, and I was just turning it intolike infinite creativity, day
after day after day, and thatwas helping me keep my sanity.

Speaker 1 (01:11:13):
And I, I experienced the same thing.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Yeah, and I think so.
That opportunity is really,it's being made available to all
of us, because, you know, if wedon't, you know, pick up that
opportunity, then we just becomepartial and unconscious, and
you know, and develop symptomsand get depressed and
pessimistic, and that doesn'tserve anyone.
And yeah, so that would be my,my last thing to sort of offer

(01:11:39):
to people.

Speaker 1 (01:11:40):
Thank you so much, paul, and please leave my
listeners with a way to find you, your website your books and
whatever you want to share.

Speaker 2 (01:11:49):
So yeah, yeah, so real simple of people.
If they're interested, if theywant to awaken in the dream, go
to awakeninthedreamcom.
That's my website and it's notmonetized at all.
You know there's no paywall.
The only you can, you know, doI do private sessions where you
can buy my books, but everythingelse, all those tons of

(01:12:12):
articles and interviews it's allfor free because I just want
this information to get out,because it's medicine and so
that would be the way.
And then on on that on mywebsite.
You know there's a contact Paul.
They can send me emails orwhatever.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
Yeah, and you, you do coaching and then I've been in
one of your groups and they'rewonderful, wonderful group of
people really enjoyed, you know,and I'll be doing more of those
, but yeah so yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you.
Thank you, Paul.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Alison, thank you so much for the invite.
This has been so much fun.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Well, same here.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, your life is yourgreatest work of art.

(01:13:09):
It all relates back to the samething.