In this deeply engaging episode of the Integrated Wisdom Podcast, we explore the intersection of spirituality, psychology, and women's midlife experiences with psychologist and menopause advocate Belinda Bayliss. After navigating medical menopause at just 26 following cancer treatment, Belinda brings a unique perspective on how spiritual exploration can support both personal healing and professional practice.
About Our Guest
Belinda Baileys is a psychologist, educator, and menopause advocate with over 20 years of experience in mental health. She specializes in training healthcare professionals on the psychological impacts of menopause and perimenopause, helping them provide more informed, compassionate care to midlife women. Belinda combines her clinical expertise with personal experience to challenge outdated narratives around women's midlife transitions.
Key Topics Discussed
Spiritual Journey and Early Influences
- Growing up in an Anglo-Christian household and questioning organized religion
- The impact of losing a best friend at 20 and facing cancer at 26
- Discovering Buddhism as a more aligned spiritual path
- Moving from doctrine-based beliefs to personal spiritual exploration
Integrating Spirituality in Clinical Practice
- The importance of seeing clients as whole human beings
- Creating space for spiritual and cultural conversations in therapy
- Distinguishing between spiritual experiences and pathology
- Overcoming professional fears around discussing spirituality
The Connection Between Spirituality and Midlife
- How hormonal changes during perimenopause affect women's spiritual awakening
- The role of declining estrogen in rediscovering personal authenticity
- Why midlife women often return to spiritual practices they abandoned
- The freedom that comes with caring less about others' opinions
Professional Insights
- The over-medicalization of human experiences in modern psychology
- The importance of holistic assessment rather than symptom-focused treatment
- Creating therapeutic spaces that honor all aspects of human experience
- The value of grounded, spiritually-aware practitioners
Recommended Reading
- Works by Master Sheng Yen on Humanistic Buddhism
- "Zen and the Modern Girl" (book that lived beside Belinda's bed)
Connect with Belinda
Clinical Practice: Reset Psychology (telehealth available)
Educational Platform: Flourish Beyond
- Instagram: @flourish.beyond_
- Facebook: Flourish Beyond
FREE Guide: 20 Client Conversation Starters Guide:
https://www.integratedwisdom.com.au/20conversationstarters
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Intro and Outro music: Inspiring Morning by Playsound
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tatiana (00:00):
Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to
(00:02):
share something special withyou.
If you've been listening to ourconversations about integrating
screw trial into therapy, youmight be wondering where to
start with your own clients.
To help you with that, I'vecreated a free guide called 20
Client Conversation Starters, XExploring Spirituality
(00:24):
Ethically.
Now, these aren't just anyrandom questions.
They're carefully craftedprompts designed to open up
meaningful dialogue whilerespecting ethical boundaries
and diverse beliefs.
With each question, you will begiven a context for when and how
to raise it with a client toprovide you with that extra
(00:47):
guidance.
You can download this guideright now by heading to the link
in the show notes.
Let me know how you go withusing this conversation.
Starters, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Now, today's episode.
Welcome to the Integrated WisdomPodcast.
I'm your host, Tatiana DaSilva.
(01:09):
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology.
Neuroscience, epigenetics andenergy psychology.
(01:31):
I hope to empower you to createdeeper and more loving
connections with yourself andothers, whilst also paving the
way for humanity at large to bereimagined and inspired to
become the very best version ofit.
(01:52):
Hello and welcome to theIntegrated Wisdom Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining mefor yet another week.
Today I bring another one of myfavorite segments, the Soulful
Chats, and I'm so excited tohave a dear friend and
colleague.
Join me today for what I am surewill be a very.
Exciting and helpfulconversation for many of our
(02:14):
listeners, particularly thosethat are women.
So I am joined today by BelindaBaileys.
She's a psychologist, educator,and menopause advocate with over
20 years of experience afternavigating medical menopause at
age 26 following cancertreatment, Belinda became
passionate about improving.
(02:35):
How health professionals supportwomen through midlife and
menopause.
She now trains and educatespsychologists, counselors, and
allied health professionals onthe psychological impacts of
menopause, helping them providemore informed, compassionate
care.
Belinda brings a warm, practicalapproach to her teaching,
challenging, outdated narrativesand empowering professionals to
(02:57):
better serve midlife women.
I'm so excited for this chat.
Welcome, be.
Belinda (03:01):
Oh, thank you.
I am so here for this chat.
Tatiana (03:06):
And, you know, just a, a little behind the scenes sneak
peek.
Just before we jumped on, I wasasking Bell for advice on my own
perimenopause journey at themoment, which is doing my head
in, and she has been a wealth ofknowledge and support.
So I'm sure as we talk throughher own spiritual journey, we'll
also be able to talk about someof those insights and expertise
(03:27):
that she, she brings to thetable.
Belinda (03:29):
I am happy to be here.
Tatiana (03:32):
So on that, why don't you tell our listeners a little
bit about you, a little bit morethan what I've just said.
Belinda (03:37):
Yeah, so I'm a psychologist and have been
floating around the space indifferent roles for about,
roughly 20 years.
Now.
Previous to that, I was a highschool teacher, so that really
informs the way in which I dopsychology.
It's really, I, I have thatabsolute belief that knowledge
is power.
So I want, I want people to knowsort of not just what's
(03:59):
happening for them, but youknow, a little bit of an
understanding about, about whythat is.
And I think that it, that flowthrough of my passion sort of
extends to, to many areas of mylife.
And, the, the one that's sort ofsitting in that space right now
is sort of supporting women inperimenopause and menopause
because it's such a, a point anda, a transition in, it's a life
(04:20):
transition and a change point.
And I think that I think we'vesilenced it a lot and I don't
think that it's something Iagree with.
Tatiana (04:28):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And it is, it's, it's scary asyou start to learn more and more
about what this stage of lifemeans for women in particular,
it's mind blowing just how muchthere is, right.
That we didn't know, and we'reall just kind of feeling our way
in the darkness and trying to,to make the best of a situation
that doesn't need to be sochallenging.
Belinda (04:48):
Yeah.
And, and while it is that space,you know, it's, it's been that
taboo space.
The impact and the ripple effectof it is, is so vast because if
we think about it, it doesaffect women in midlife.
But we know that per can startanywhere from around 35 as our
estrogen starts to decline.
(05:09):
Well, it does affect thatparticular woman.
That woman might also be holdingthe space as mother or as
daughter or as partner or, youknow, there's so many roles and,
and we're now living with thesewomen who maybe are seeing that
transition point and that changein, in who they are and how they
feel.
So it's a, it, it isn'teverybody impact, even though
(05:32):
women are, are the ones livingwith it.
Tatiana (05:35):
Yeah.
Very well said.
So on that note, then can, maybewe should go back to your own
journey with spirituality andthen we can see how that inco
like leads into
Belinda (05:47):
Yeah.
Tatiana (05:48):
the midlife juncture.
So what's the, sparked yourinterest in spirituality?
Belinda (05:54):
Reflecting on this, so I grew up in.
Anglo Christian household,although not, not your go to
church on Sundays.
Mom, my mom and dad, uh, metthrough the church, but it was
Friday Youth Group, so I don'tknow that it was, uh, it was
that, you know, in, in everySunday type of thing.
So we, I.
(06:15):
We for our family, it was off toSunday school on Sundays and,
and we were a bit older youthgroup.
And as I aged, it didn't seemto, that idea of organized
religion didn't seem to resonatefor me because I would see
people who, who were religious,but who.
Sometimes weren't the nicest ofpeople.
(06:36):
So as a, as a sort of emergingteen, there was that real
questioning of, well, is thisactually the nicest and most
compassionate way for people tobe?
I.
I do know that, uh, there was acouple of, of points where I
moved back towards the church alittle bit.
So I I lost my best friend whenwe were 20.
(06:57):
He died in a car accident andthat was, that pulled me back to
that space of, of.
Needing something.
And I attended church for alittle while and, and you know,
in all honesty, the localreverend, he was, he was amazing
support for my family at that,that time, because although he
was a friend, he was also almostpart of the, you know,
(07:17):
unofficial family.
So it was a really huge loss.
But I also know how religionplayed a part in, in his death
as well, because he was raisedas, you know, Vietnamese
Catholic, and despite the factthat he didn't go to church and
he was not, not a religiousperson, it was, you know, that
(07:38):
the family needing that service.
Again, it put that realdisruption point for me around
religion versus spirituality andbeliefs and, and that type of
thing.
And I think that kicked inagain, probably around my cancer
diagnosis.
So all of a sudden at, at 26 outof nowhere, being faced with
(07:59):
your own mortality, it reallyleads to that, that questioning
space.
And, and again, like most of uswho, who reach a challenge
point, we, we go looking, we trwe try to seek reason or, or
rhyme to it.
And I sort of floated backtowards the church and I have
this moment of sitting in achurch service.
(08:21):
And the resonance of the singingwas overwhelming.
Like I just felt such anemotional positioning there.
But it was an overwhelm and, andI didn't go back after that.
It was just, it was too much forwhatever reason.
And I sort of put it all asidefor a while, but emerging in the
side was sort of an interest inBuddhism.
Tatiana (08:43):
Right.
Belinda (08:43):
So it aligned better with my own sense of beliefs.
So this idea of so for me,heaven didn't make logical
sense.
And it was a logical part of mybrain, which, you know, that's
why we psychologists.
But there was that idea thatthere wasn't.
There was this place that we allwent to if we were good, but if
(09:05):
we were bad, then we wentsomewhere else.
And the human can be both forthose things.
So we can have moments where weare incredibly compassionate and
there are other times where weare maybe not so great.
And it didn't, it didn't sort ofresonate for me.
So, moving into something, the,the other thing that sat there
was this idea that, how did wejust stop existing?
(09:28):
Like how to get, and thatprobably started to question
with, with my friends passing,like, how do we just stop?
And that idea of energy.
And I think that for me, movinginto that need for some type of
maybe structure I startedexploring Buddhism and, and it
(09:49):
felt like a, a more comfortablefit in some of the beliefs that
sat there.
Tatiana (09:54):
Oh wow.
Fantastic.
So what would you say was thefirst, I guess, spiritual
concept that you began yourexploration with?
Like when you actually startedto dive into understanding
spirituality.
Philosophy.
Belinda (10:11):
I really think that, I think it comes back to that
notion of existence, like how dowe just exist and then not
exist?
How do we.
How do we find joy in spaces butnot others?
How do we connect with somepeople and not others?
So that idea of it's, it's notas black and white as the way we
(10:34):
live our lives according to abook, uh, to a book.
There are sort of so many otherelements to human existence
distance that aren't easilyexplained.
And there was a curiosity inthere about what is this?
Thing, how do I connect withself?
How do I connect with others?
How do I connect with myenvironment?
(10:55):
And I think the curiosity aboutthe spiritual space was all sort
of fed by those, thosequestions.
Tatiana (11:04):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
So what benefits for you on apersonal level first did you
find from having spiritual, aspiritual perspective or
incorporating spirituality intoyour life?
Belinda (11:18):
I think, I think the notion of getting to know self
in a way that isn't necessarilywritten in doctrine.
Tatiana (11:28):
Mm-hmm.
Belinda (11:29):
that makes sense.
So that, that freedom to be, tolive without that level of
judgment.
Tatiana (11:36):
Mm-hmm.
Belinda (11:37):
if we, if we come back to that spirituality versus
religion space, that it's notjust that straightforward.
It is or it isn't becausethere's humans are not black and
white per se.
We're quite gray in our, in ourexistence.
I think viewing things from a, abigger picture that
(11:58):
interconnectedness.
There's a part of me and, andit's not really spirituality,
but I think as, as humans tothink that we are the only
existence in the universe ispretty arrogant.
The universe.
That's right.
That's right.
So I think that, I think thatthat perspective, and whether we
call that spirituality or, orwhat word we wanna label, I
(12:19):
think that idea that you know,we exist for a short time, but
what is, what is the purpose andintent?
How do we connect and, and what,what resonates for us?
And I think resonance is reallyimportant in spirituality.
Tatiana (12:32):
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
Because I think that's, that'show we start to identify the
things that speak to us on thatdeeper level.
Right.
And, and start to lead us back.
Back into the right path asopposed to knowing when we're in
spaces that don't actually fit.
Belinda (12:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and also I think not justthat, but living under doctrines
and beliefs that don't seem to,to fit either.
So I, I very much have a strongbelief, belief in the power of
kindness and compassion.
And I think that some of thethings that we see show up in,
(13:08):
in a, across a multitude ofreligious spaces aren't
necessarily compassionate orkind.
And so I think the space ofspirituality allows us to lean
into what we believe our beliefsand purposes are,
Tatiana (13:23):
Hmm.
Belinda (13:24):
and without judgment.
Tatiana (13:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Absolutely.
'cause I think when you havethat perspective, you can also
appreciate the fact that we'reall on this journey of evolving
as individuals, right?
And we, we're all at differentstages, but we're all kind of
working towards becoming abetter version of ourselves or
a, you know, a more fullyrealized version of ourselves.
And you can, you can give peoplegrace when you can see that.
Belinda (13:49):
and I definitely have an inherent belief in the
goodness of people.
some call it naive.
I just call it the way I wannaperceive the world.
Tatiana (13:58):
Well, I am wired the same way Bell, so
Belinda (14:02):
I love that.
Tatiana (14:02):
I'm gonna biasly agree with you.
I do think most of us are good,and even those of us that
aren't, we're not bad.
We're just, uh, not aware.
Belinda (14:14):
Yeah.
Or, or learning.
Tatiana (14:16):
Yeah.
Learning.
Belinda (14:17):
I think it's the intent behind what we, what we sort of
put out and try to do in theworld.
That's important and, andsometimes it doesn't always land
as, as kindly or ascompassionately as it could.
Tatiana (14:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
So have you found that there'sbeen any opportunity for you to
weave some of this into your,like your professional
offerings?
And if so, like what kind ofbenefits have you found from
doing that?
Belinda (14:49):
Yeah, sorry.
It's interesting.
I was, I was trained 20 yearsago in psychology.
Tatiana (14:55):
Mm-hmm.
Belinda (14:56):
And there was part of our training that talked about
how do we bring someone'sspirituality or their religion
into the room.
Like it was part of that whole,whole person sitting with us as
opposed to what can sometimes bequite a medicalized or
pathologized model.
Uh, I think if we see the wholeperson.
That is, that has so much morevalue.
(15:17):
And there will be times whereI'm sitting with clients and,
and I will ask, you know, so, sotell me about how faith or
spirituality or religion, youknow, feeds into this situation
and, and finding that peopleparticularly in crisis will,
will revert to that.
Space of, of faith on, on aslightly tangent, but similar
(15:41):
note sitting with clients whoare our indigenous populations,
our First nations people, likethat's that connection to, to
country and, and asking aboutthat.
And I recall one, one person whowas, was having quite a time
and.
They hadn't mentioned anywhereabout this, this their, their
(16:04):
cultural heritage and they saidsomething around they hadn't
been to visit their grandmotherwho was an aboriginal.
And, and I just sort of, I askedthe question, you know, where's
your mob?
When was the last time you wereon country?
Tatiana (16:18):
Mm.
Belinda (16:18):
And there was a physical reaction to that.
There was almost like a, a.
A holding that they let go andthey physically just sort of
just slumped into that.
And they said, it is so longsince someone has asked me that.
And they were able to talk aboutit and reflect on it and what it
meant to them.
(16:39):
Now did that provide healing?
I don't know.
I do know that they, they, theytook two weeks off sessions and,
and went back to country for acouple of weeks because that
they, they went back because forthem they're like, you're right.
I need some healing.
So it looks like so many thingsfor so many people, and we don't
have the answers, but we can askthe questions for people to
explore their own space.
Tatiana (17:00):
Absolutely.
It's about giving them thatpermission.
Right?
Because I think that, yeah, forsome people there's a
misconception that that's notthe space for those sorts of
conversations.
Belinda (17:09):
no.
Tatiana (17:10):
But if we're talking about human existence and human
experience, we're talking aboutall of
Belinda (17:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I've had clients sit with meand, and there's another memory
that sits there a number ofyears ago now about someone who
was asking me about my, mythoughts around death and, and
what that was.
And, and I thought that was areally unusual question,
particularly as we knew that itwas the last session we were
going to be sitting in that wedecided that, you know, therapy
got to point where they were.
They were doing okay.
(17:35):
And, and this was our last sortof check in.
And I sort of gave, gave abrief, but then the curiosity as
to why you asked that.
And they felt a, a connection asthey saw it with people who had
passed.
And that was, that was part oftheir spiritual.
Awake your awarenesses that theyhad this and, and they mentioned
(17:56):
that there'd been a spirithanging around the room.
And well, two actually, and, andI just said, I, I didn't know
really how to reply and I justsaid, oh, I'm, I'm sorry about
that.
And the interesting thing is shesaid to me sort of, ah, so and
describe them.
And she's like, do you know whothat might be?
And I'm like, yeah, I'm prettysure if, if you are detecting
(18:18):
spirits, I can probably know whothey are.
And I'm, I'm sorry.
They've been annoying.
But you know, that, that justpermission, uh, you know, I
wasn't psycho pathologizingthem.
I wasn't saying, oh, you know,delusional hallucinations, but
this person was very comfortableand, and in that space, and it
was that questioning about, do Ihave permission to share this
experience with you in the room?
(18:40):
And it was a, the curiosity ofthe therapist to allow that
space for people to explorewhat's there.
Tatiana (18:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
I was even having thisconversation earlier today with
some other colleagues about thefact that really our training is
lacking significantly in helpingus be able to discern between
spiritual abilities.
Like mediumship or web, youknow, individuals can connect
with spirit and receive thosesorts of communications versus
(19:07):
psychosis.
Those two exist, but they'redistinct.
and we now have a lot ofscientific data that shows that,
like that the identifyingfactors that you would use to
discern one from the
Belinda (19:22):
Mm.
Tatiana (19:24):
and why aren't we not being trained in, in identifying
these things?
And so, Yeah.
Belinda (19:29):
And, and it's, it's, it's curious.
I think early on, sort of myexperience of that type of space
was, uh, I, I went to have areiki healing.
I was in a place of change in mylife and was looking for things.
So I went to Reiki healing and,and.
The practitioner said, I alsochannel people who've passed.
(19:50):
Are you interested?
And I'm super skeptical and, andmy brain went to, you know, and,
and without the sounding crass,but what my brain thought was,
you know, I'll bring on the pastor the deceased grandparent
because I was at that age whereI would likely have a deceased
grandparent or a, or a greatgrandparent.
They sort of got to a point andthey said, someone's come
through.
Do you wanna know?
(20:10):
And I'm like, sure.
Cynical self.
And they, they basicallyidentified, and I mentioned that
I had a friend who passed awayat 20 and they basically said to
me, A young man has come throughand he, and he wants to know why
you're angry with him.
I was like, fully died.
And, and that was really, thatwas really curious because they
(20:32):
were, they actually gave anotherreally strong piece of
information that they couldn'thave known.
And so I remember they were sortof hovering around my, I, my
cancer was cervical.
They were sort of hovering.
They said, you've had cancer.
And I'm like, mm-hmm.
Like, I'm not giving youanything here.
Tatiana (20:48):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Belinda (20:49):
and they just said, you know, they want me, they want me
to tell you that you're okay.
Tatiana (20:54):
yeah.
Belinda (20:55):
it was.
And, and
Tatiana (20:56):
Yeah.
Belinda (20:56):
it, it wasn't a medium reading and not that I, I'm, you
know, either way on those, itwas, it was a$30 reiki healing.
So there was no gain.
There was no gain for thisperson in that space.
And that was enough for me togo, oh, there's something there.
I'll respect it at arm's length.
Tatiana (21:16):
yeah.
Fair enough.
Path.
Making sense, all those sort ofexperiences right, resonates
Belinda (21:27):
And I think, I think it is becoming harder in that we
put, we leave so much of adigital footprint now, so I
think that unfortunately thereis a space for people who are
maybe less than ethical to, tolean into that, you know, track
that digital footprint.
But, there was, I, I had no realdigital footprint.
I don't even think I hadFacebook back then.
(21:47):
So Yeah.
So there was, there was reallynowhere that it, it could have
been gathered from.
So it was curious, but itcertainly it was it sort of like
an evidential proof almost, orin an anecdotal way that someone
knew something that theycouldn't or shouldn't have.
Tatiana (22:04):
Yes.
And then that.
Belinda (22:10):
Yeah.
But then from a therapyperspective, if somebody was
bringing that through a room,what would we start thinking of,
of their behaviors?
Would we try to pathologizethem?
Would we start, you know,wondering and, and I think
you're absolutely right.
The training for therapists tobe able to distinguish between
those two spaces and at least becurious enough to ask the
(22:31):
questions is really important inour, in our space to go forward
as a profession.
I.
Tatiana (22:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So on that, and you know, I've,I've spoken very openly on this
podcast, but also I think insome conversations that you and
I have had and other people thatwe know have had around the fear
that permeates us in ourprofession around talking about
spirituality, I think it's, it'sdefinitely a, a much more open
(23:00):
landscape today, but like Iwould say 10 years ago to be a
psychologist in a room talkingopenly about this stuff,
mediumship and things like that,like that just wouldn't happen.
So would from your, like yourown lived experience, have you
had any fears around, I guess,combining those two things,
being a psychologist and beingspiritually minded?
(23:21):
And if so, how did you overcomethat fear?
Belinda (23:24):
I think that.
Because, you know, I'm, 20 yearsago this was, this was part of
our conversation when sittingwith people sort of, I guess
there's that old school trainingthat.
We sit with the person with allof their parts you know, and,
and that is if they'respiritual, if they're holistic,
if they're and it is to supportthem and advocate for them where
(23:45):
they're at while being mindfulof whether or not this is, you
know, impacting in any big way.
Because what we are looking foris, is this causing harm?
Tatiana (23:54):
Yes.
Belinda (23:55):
And I, I really believe that the profession has swung
too far The other way that weare also fearful of having human
conversations.
I.
That we can sit with that, thatrisk.
And do I raise this with, isthis person going to put a
complaint in?
There is a, it's a sadindictment in the profession
(24:17):
when we have a general termwhere we refer to our, our
professional body as a, orsorry, our registrate
registering body as a jail.
Like that is, that is a.
That isn't got, that has to beaddressed in some ways.
And I believe that they'retrying, I know the latest psych
Board of Australia came out withthat.
They're going to try and make itnot so for be, can't find a
(24:40):
better word right now, but witchhunty.
So there is, there is that idea.
I hadn't thought about that, butYeah, absolutely.
But I, I do, I do think if Iwas.
You know, and it doesn't meanthat I'm immune to complaints or
anything.
I think being in the professionfor a little bit longer has, has
(25:02):
sort of allowed me the space tofeel a calmness and, and being
able to read my clients andwhich ones that I would raise
this conversation with and whichones I wouldn't.
I think if I were new into theprofession now, I think it would
be a really hard topic toapproach.
I don't think there's thetraining in new graduates for
this.
I don't, I think it's more apathologized, you know, the
(25:25):
first two sessions should reallyabout be about treatment
planning is, is what I hear.
And, you know, make sure thatyou've got a treatment plan and
you've, you've done this andyou've diagnosed and you've
medicalized
Tatiana (25:36):
Yeah.
Belinda (25:37):
and my first session is, hey.
Let's have a chat and find outwho you are.
You know, the questions.
I definitely sit under apositive psychology framework,
so that might be a little bitdifferent.
But the questions I do my spielat the beginning, you know, here
are the, here are theboundaries.
This is, you know, if you tellme this, then I may need to seek
support outside the room.
We know them, the interestspiel, but my questions for my
(26:00):
clients on a first session istwo things.
I'm curious in what got youthrough the door and if coming
to see me made a difference,what might that look like?
Tatiana (26:09):
Yeah.
Belinda (26:10):
questions
Tatiana (26:11):
Beautiful.
Belinda (26:13):
clients can, so can't sometimes tell you why they're
coming to see you.
Tatiana (26:18):
No,
Belinda (26:18):
That, and then it might take two sessions and we might
treatment plan in the firstsession and third session,
they're like, I actually I'm analcoholic.
But until there's a trust in thespace.
So if we spend, if we spend thefirst two hours medicalizing our
space and not connecting, thenhow do we establish that
therapeutic alignment, you know?
(26:40):
Yeah.
Where people are comfortable tosay, I have an issue with
alcohol, or I'm questioning myspirituality.
Or whatever it is that is inthere.
Like, am I going crazy becauseall of a sudden I, I feel like I
can, you know, I, I feel like Iknow what's gonna happen.
Am I crazy?
You know, have I got a braintumor?
Tatiana (26:59):
Yeah.
Belinda (27:00):
You know, or, or women in midlife who come in and can't
find their words and think theyhave dementia like.
Tatiana (27:06):
Oh gosh, yes.
That's me at the moment.
Belinda (27:11):
Yeah, if we look at the medicalization of the menopause
peral space, women are beingsent to multiple medical
professionals.
So, oh, you've got a soreshoulder.
It's probably frozen.
So shoulder, go and see this.
Oh, your feet hurt.
You need a podiatrist.
Oh, you've got a burning sensasensation on your tongue.
Oh, you probably need to go andsee, you know, a a third, A ENT
(27:34):
type.
Because that's, whereas theseare all, if we have a chat with
someone, we might go, actually,the alignment here is there are
perimenopause symptoms, so wherewe leave the human outside the
room and whether that's theirpresentation, their
spirituality, then we are, youare risking losing what makes
(27:54):
our profession thatcompassionate profession.
It should be.
Tatiana (28:00):
yeah.
But also, but also worryingineffective in helping our
clients.
Belinda (28:05):
Yeah,
Tatiana (28:06):
Because we're only in, and I don't speak just for
psychology.
I think it's all of all ofhealth.
When we're just looking atsymptoms or we're like looking
at systems, like components ofpeople, we're missing the whole
process.
Like the whole context.
It's all happening in, right?
Belinda (28:22):
That, that silo siloing of, of the medical profession.
Actually, I think I.
Things are being missed.
Gps don't have time.
He used to be the holder and,and the conduit of all the
knowledge at Central Point.
They're so very busy now, and,and they get what, 10, 15
minutes with a person toactually say, oh, you've got
(28:43):
seven reports here that are allreport.
You know, I think we, we aremissing that and I.
In a way, I feel like aspsychologists, we are privileged
because if someone sits with us,there's an expectation that we
are with them from 50 minutes toan hour and we can get those
other pieces.
And, and I know there hasdefinitely been times where I've
needed to feed some of thatinformation back to the GP
(29:04):
around the context of what,what's going on, because the GP
has only had 10 minutes and, andbeen under that pressure.
Tatiana (29:12):
Yeah, 100%.
So I do hope that things arestarting to shift away from
that.
And like I know obviously thatin our.
In psychology in Australia,they're introducing some new
competencies from the end ofthis year that are going to ask
us to look at individuals alittle bit more holistically,
right?
Like, we'll factor in otheraspects of, of their lived
experience, like their, theircultural aspects, their
(29:36):
neurodivergent needs but alsotheir spiritual beliefs.
So.
I, yeah, we're starting to kindof course correct.
But we need to be
Belinda (29:45):
It's always gonna be a pendulum, isn't it?
I do believe that we need tokeep our professional ethical
hats on.
I don't think we need topathologize as much as some
parts of our professionalpushing.
Tatiana (30:01):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, I mean this is not aconversation for this podcast,
but like just a lot like thefact that today people can have
five or six diagnostic labelsblows my mind.
Belinda (30:15):
Yeah.
Tatiana (30:15):
Right.
I'm pretty sure we are supposedto identify the one that
explains the most,
Belinda (30:21):
Yeah.
That's why we have differentialdiagnosis, isn't it?
Tatiana (30:24):
Exactly, because most there, there's overlap in most
things, but when like, you can'tpossibly have all these things,
like you're just explaining, oh,this explains this symptom, this
explains that symptom again.
Like that's how you end up withtoo many labels and it's, yeah,
it's
Belinda (30:40):
and, and I think it's, I think it's confusing for our,
the people we sit with too,whether we call them our
patients or our clients, becausethe DSM is constantly expanding.
And there's more, myprofessional opinion and my
personal opinion is that thereare more things in there that
are, are, are in some ways justnormal human traits.
Tatiana (31:00):
Agreed
Belinda (31:02):
but then we also see with the, you know, the
expansion of social mediaclients now coming to us saying,
Hey, I think I've got this.
I saw it on TikTok.
And, and, and I'm just like, letme get my dsm, let's run through
this.
Let's have a look at it.
So, yes, but you know, I knowyou're saying this, but it can
(31:23):
also be explained by the factthat you already have a
diagnosis of this.
You know?
So I think that there are somany elements to existing as a
human that I think we need tovalue all of them.
Tatiana (31:36):
Absolutely.
That's why it all needs to beintegrated, right?
Like, Yeah, we're, we're muchmore powerful that way.
And then we can empower ourclients much more that way.
Belinda (31:44):
Yeah.
Isn't that what we want though?
Isn't I often, I joke that wehave like the worst business
model ever because our, ouractual, you know, target is for
our clients not to need usanymore.
Tatiana (32:00):
Uh, I make the same joke with my clients.
My goal here is to becomeobsolete in your life.
Belinda (32:07):
It's business model ever.
Tatiana (32:11):
It really is.
Uh, but yeah, but it's true.
So, okay, so on that.
What value do you see forpsychologists and therapists in
general in embracing theirspiritual selves or at least be
more curious about spirituality?
Belinda (32:27):
Uh, I think there is so much value in.
Having and knowing that part ofyourself.
Tatiana (32:35):
Hmm,
Belinda (32:35):
We sit in rooms with people where we can be advocate,
we can be challenger, we can besupport guide, like whatever
word or or role we wanna use,but having that idea of being.
Grounded in our, withinourselves, I truly believe has a
flow on effect to our clients.
(32:56):
If you're sitting with somebodywho is, is grounded and I think
spirituality can can assist withthat sense of feeling grounded.
I think that we in that spacejust allow a safer space for our
clients.
Tatiana (33:11):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
But even on a personal level,what would you say
Belinda (33:17):
For me, it, it's so vast, really.
Uh, I am very much, I, I.
Do my best to live my lifealigned to Buddhist ethics.
So, you know, kindness,compassion, you know, being a
decent human.
If, if you look that, that waswhat drew me to Buddhism in that
(33:40):
it's really, I remember beingquestioned when I was not being
questioned, but someone waschatting with me because I was
looking at doing my triple gem.
Which is your first sort of, Iguess, movement into being a, a.
I don't know, noticed orregistered, but I don't know.
It's, anyway, you do your triplegem as your first step and the
(34:02):
one of it is so is that there'ssort of five ways to live your
life and, and I remember sittingwith this person and they told
me, and I'm like, oh, sobasically just being a decent
human.
It's like, it's like, don't,don't hurt people when you're
in, you know, don't move into,into drug use or things that are
gonna sort of have you break theothers, you know, don't cheat,
(34:25):
don't steal, don't lie.
Like just the, the basic thingsthat we see as, as, as common
decency.
So I really like that.
I have an anchoring point forthat helps me with.
Decision making and living.
So, you know, I very much, youknow, sit with that, you know,
kindness of thoughts, kindnessof words, kindness indeed that
they're very tenant to myself.
(34:47):
But then there's other thingsbeyond that that I can't explain
the fact that when I am bybeach, I am a karma person.
I have that resonance in thatwater space and, and for me
that, that leans into thatspiritual home.
The curious thing is, uh,recently I was, I've been
looking at a little bit at humandesign just on the side, and
Tatiana (35:09):
Oh yeah.
Belinda (35:09):
it came up with my, my space is Sure.
And I'm just like, likeS-H-O-R-E and I'm just like,
yep.
By the water.
Tatiana (35:16):
There you go.
Belinda (35:17):
It was just, so I think that the fact that we have that,
that bigger.
Is really important and, and howwe wanna word that and where
that sits in our space, I thinkis, is very personal thing, but
having it allows us just to leaninto being the person we want
(35:39):
more.
Tatiana (35:40):
Yeah.
100%.
So beautifully said.
So on that, a final reflection,if you had to pick one
transformative aspect ofembracing spirituality more
fully, both on that personal andprofessional level, what aspect
would that be for you?
Belinda (35:58):
The first thing that comes to mind is gonna sound
weird, and that is justconnection to the breath.
Tatiana (36:04):
Okay.
Belinda (36:05):
for me.
Breath is life.
It's, you know, the differentspaces have different words for
it.
But I think if we wanna reallythink about everything that is
in our, in our world justbreath, come to the breath,
connect with your breath, andyou connect with bigger things
and you connect with yourself.
It is our conduit between theout and the end.
Tatiana (36:27):
That's so true.
Lovely.
Uh, so I do have a, a bit of atradition where I get my guests
to recommend a book to the, uh,our listeners where they can
begin their journey withexploring spirituality if
they're curious about doingthat.
And I would love to hear whatyour recommendation is.
Belinda (36:52):
It is, it's, it's curious because from
spirituality, I don't know thatI've actually read too much that
would, that I would think wouldsit under that.
But definitely the temple.
I serve master s.
He's, his work is always very'cause humanistic Buddhism, it's
how do we be Buddhists in likea, in a modern world.
(37:13):
I think it's, is reallyimportant.
But, uh, I do remember, and I'mtrying to remember the name of
it, and it was something likeZen and the Modern Girl or
something.
It was really, I had that book.
It was so dogeared because itwas just about.
Ways to approach things justwith a sense of calm and coming
back to breath.
(37:34):
And that was one that, thatreally resonated for me.
And, and somewhere along the wayit got, it was lost.
But it, it lived beside my bedand it was so dogeared.
And I don't normally do that tobooks.
I'm usually respectful and booksget bookmarks.
But this one, it was way moreone that lived with me.
It was a living book for me.
Tatiana (37:52):
Yeah.
Oh, wonderful.
I'll add a link to the shownotes to that one.
It's, I've had so many differentbooks and poems and all sorts of
things suggested, like my, mypile of reading material just
grows and grows and grows.
Belinda (38:06):
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll I'll definitely get the name
through the, I'll, I'll jumponline and find it because it
was just so practical and, andit was, it was sort of a bit of
a life manual at a time when Ineeded it.
Tatiana (38:17):
Fantastic.
And, and look, there may not bea neat connection on this right
now, but from that, like thatmidlife perspective and some,
what, some of the things thatyou are, you are witnessing in
your space and in your work,where do you see spiritually
fitting into that, if at all?
It may not,
Belinda (38:37):
Oh, I, I definitely think it has a space.
Spirituality comes up often forus when we hit change or crisis.
And if we consider what ourwomen in midlife experience
around perimenopause,particularly with the silencing
of it, the, it's just in yourhead, which it probably is a
(38:58):
little bit because we have,well, we have estrogen and
neuroreceptors all at work inthe brain.
So it is, part of it is an ahead, but the reality is that we
will often go seeking.
I think when we don'tunderstand, and when
perimenopause and midlife startto, to sort of impact, we know
(39:19):
it is a, a stage of crisis.
We know the statistics aroundmental health and mental health
risk increase for women in, inthat perimenopause age group.
Uh, so we know that there iscrisis that sits there.
For some women though, if wehave a look at who.
Might find spirituality in theiryoga practice or who do we see
(39:41):
that, that are moving towardsallowing the hair to grow out
and wearing the beads?
And, you know, if, if we thinkabout, if we think about the
people who traditionally mightbe sort of around, for me it's
sort of, you know, themullumbimby area or, or moving
down.
You know who, who are the Byron?
(40:01):
There's a lot of women who usethat as actually, I need to
connect to myself in differentways.
And I think spirituality has abeautiful place in that,
particularly as our estrogendecreases and we become more
mindful of our own needs asopposed to the needs of others.
So estrogen is a very caringhormone.
It is.
(40:22):
It.
We see it happen, you know,we've got three main estrogen
dominance points in our orinfluencing points.
So we've got sort of puberty,pregnancy, and perimenopause.
And estrogen plays a role ineach of those phases.
So when we see it decliningbeing such a caring hormone, or
it influences our caring nature,when we see that in decline.
(40:43):
And our estrogen, testosteronestarts to, the ratios start to
change.
Tatiana (40:49):
Yeah.
Belinda (40:49):
find that women start to rediscover themselves because
that caring component of theirpersonality is lessening.
And for a lot of women that willlead that curiosity about
spirituality.
I hear a lot of women say, oh,when I was younger I used to
think about this, but I lostthat summer along the way, and
(41:10):
I'm curious about it again.
Tatiana (41:12):
Wow, how fast, how fascinating.
Belinda (41:16):
Yeah.
Tatiana (41:16):
So, yeah, like it brings you to this, it awakens
this need for authenticity,
Belinda (41:22):
Yeah,
Tatiana (41:23):
right?
And I guess rediscovering andredefining yourself and.
An intuitive understanding thatyou need to have that spiritual
component.
Belinda (41:33):
Yeah.
And, and I was sitting behi, Iwas standing behind a lady in a
shop the other day who, who wasprobably a few years older than
me, and she was talking tosomeone else.
She said, oh, aging is great.
You give less cares about anyoneelse, what anyone else thinks.
And I'm like, oh, I really, thatjust, that made me smile
because.
When we do have the freedom notto be using all of our time for
(41:55):
caring for others, and, and thatdoesn't mean that we've
necessarily been in the role of,uh, mother, but we are as, as by
nature.
Uh, women have estrogen, whichimpacts that caring role.
So when that starts to diminish,it actually allows time for
self.
Tatiana (42:13):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Belinda (42:17):
So I think it's got a huge space.
Tatiana (42:20):
Yes.
Yeah, it does.
It'll be interesting to see asthe conversation start evolving,
like now that it's being muchmore widely spoken of and and
understood whether, yeah, thesesorts of concepts start weaving
in a little bit more
Belinda (42:34):
Yeah.
I would have to challenge thoughthat, I don't know, it is being
more widely spoken about.
But unless you're actually inthat circle, it's, it's not like
I sit with people who I justassume everybody knows what I
know.
And, and sitting with people,you know, I had two women last
(42:54):
week who had been, I.
You know, referred and at nopoint had their menopause
transition been addressed by anyother person they were seeing.
So while we, when we're inthere, we, we have that idea
that everybody's feeling thisway.
There's still a lot of work tobe done.
Mm-hmm.
Tatiana (43:11):
No.
No doubt.
Absolutely.
And you're one the champions inthat space, which is.
Belinda (43:17):
Uh, absolutely.
I, I've got a real passion forit and I could talk all day on
it, as you probably know.
I also feel that, you know, I, Iwanna expand that ripple effect.
And, and I think not justtherapists, but, but anyone
who's sort of working alongsidewomen or children of those women
or partners of those women thatall have a space, uh, to do
(43:39):
that.
As a friend of mine who was, uh,a marathon runner was.
Told by a physio that, oh,you've just a little bit sore
because you passed your years bydate.
Like, like that therapist needsto know that it's better place
to talk.
Tatiana (43:53):
Especially in this day and age when we're leaving too
close to a hundred.
Belinda (43:56):
Yeah.
Well, no, she was, she wastraining for like an overseas,
like, I think it was New York orBoston Marathon or something.
So.
Tatiana (44:03):
That's crazy.
Wow.
Alright.
No, definitely lots, lots ofneed.
Lots of change needed.
Well, thank you so much for, youknow, for coming on and, and
sharing your, your experienceand your insights and wisdom.
I really appreciate you agreewith and talk about this stuff.
Belinda (44:22):
Oh, I'm great.
I'm so grateful for you not onlygiving me this space, but for
all of the, all of the guestsand people who come on, and the
clients that you sit with.
I think it's such a beautiful,beautiful work that you do and,
and I feel privileged andgrateful that, you know, you
allow the space for my voice andothers.
Tatiana (44:39):
Oh, thank you.
And on that, I would love foryou to share a little bit about,
you know, where people can findyou, how they can work with you.
Belinda (44:47):
Yeah, so my clinical work, so as as a straight
psychologist, straight up, Ihave a practice reset
psychology, and I'm based inswi, but telehealth, so that is
a space that where.
Perimenopause and menopause orwomen can come and feel free to
talk about this stuff and to besupported Beyond that, I have
(45:10):
flourished beyond, which is aspace where I wanna influence
changing the narrative aroundmidlife and, and what it means.
So the menopause, so women inmidlife, menopause, all of the
different changes, perimenopauseand so flourish beyond.
You can find me on bothInstagram and Facebook.
There.
Tatiana (45:31):
Okay, fantastic.
I'll put all the links in theshow notes for anyone who wants
to connect with Bell.
And once again, I'm so excitedto have had you here.
Thank you for the conversation,and I hope.
All your listeners, have a greatweek and I'll see you all next
time.
(45:53):
Thank you for tuning into thisepisode of Integrated Wisdom.
It's my sincere wish thattoday's episode may have
intrigued and inspired you toreclaim your power and step into
becoming more fully integratedspiritual beings.
New episodes are published everysecond Wednesday, and I hope
(46:13):
you'll continue to join us as wedive deeper into what it means
to live an integrated life.
So if it feels aligned to you, Iinvite you to hit subscribe.
Share it with others who youfeel may benefit too.
Meals will find me on Instagramat integrated underscore wisdom.
Remember, each moment is anopportunity to embrace your
(46:36):
divine potential and create aworld that is more frequently
inspired.
So for now, stay connected, stayinspired, and keep shining your
light into the world.
Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to
(00:02):
share something special withyou.
If you've been listening to ourconversations about integrating
screw trial into therapy, youmight be wondering where to
start with your own clients.
To help you with that, I'vecreated a free guide called 20
Client Conversation Starters, XExploring Spirituality
(00:24):
Ethically.
Now, these aren't just anyrandom questions.
They're carefully craftedprompts designed to open up
meaningful dialogue whilerespecting ethical boundaries
and diverse beliefs.
With each question, you will begiven a context for when and how
to raise it with a client toprovide you with that extra
(00:47):
guidance.
You can download this guideright now by heading to the link
in the show notes.
Let me know how you go withusing this conversation.
Starters, I'd love to hear fromyou.
Now, today's episode.
Welcome to the Integrated WisdomPodcast.
I'm your host, Tatiana DaSilva.
(01:09):
Join me as we discuss what itmeans to live an integrated life
and explore ways for you tocreate a life filled with
greater meaning, peace andconnection by integrating the
wisdom of spirituality,psychology.
Neuroscience, epigenetics andenergy psychology.
(01:31):
I hope to empower you to createdeeper and more loving
connections with yourself andothers, whilst also paving the
way for humanity at large to bereimagined and inspired to
become the very best version ofit.
(01:52):
Hello and welcome to theIntegrated Wisdom Podcast.
Thank you so much for joining mefor yet another week.
Today I bring another one of myfavorite segments, the Soulful
Chats, and I'm so excited tohave a dear friend and
colleague.
Join me today for what I am surewill be a very.
Exciting and helpfulconversation for many of our
(02:14):
listeners, particularly thosethat are women.
So I am joined today by BelindaBaileys.
She's a psychologist, educator,and menopause advocate with over
20 years of experience afternavigating medical menopause at
age 26 following cancertreatment, Belinda became
passionate about improving.
(02:35):
How health professionals supportwomen through midlife and
menopause.
She now trains and educatespsychologists, counselors, and
allied health professionals onthe psychological impacts of
menopause, helping them providemore informed, compassionate
care.
Belinda brings a warm, practicalapproach to her teaching,
challenging, outdated narrativesand empowering professionals to
(02:57):
better serve midlife women.
I'm so excited for this chat.
Welcome, be.
Belinda (03:01):
Oh, thank you.
I am so here for this chat.
Tatiana (03:06):
And, you know, just a, a little behind the scenes sneak
peek.
Just before we jumped on, I wasasking Bell for advice on my own
perimenopause journey at themoment, which is doing my head
in, and she has been a wealth ofknowledge and support.
So I'm sure as we talk throughher own spiritual journey, we'll
also be able to talk about someof those insights and expertise
(03:27):
that she, she brings to thetable.
Belinda (03:29):
I am happy to be here.
Tatiana (03:32):
So on that, why don't you tell our listeners a little
bit about you, a little bit morethan what I've just said.
Belinda (03:37):
Yeah, so I'm a psychologist and have been
floating around the space indifferent roles for about,
roughly 20 years.
Now.
Previous to that, I was a highschool teacher, so that really
informs the way in which I dopsychology.
It's really, I, I have thatabsolute belief that knowledge
is power.
So I want, I want people to knowsort of not just what's
(03:59):
happening for them, but youknow, a little bit of an
understanding about, about whythat is.
And I think that it, that flowthrough of my passion sort of
extends to, to many areas of mylife.
And, the, the one that's sort ofsitting in that space right now
is sort of supporting women inperimenopause and menopause
because it's such a, a point anda, a transition in, it's a life
(04:20):
transition and a change point.
And I think that I think we'vesilenced it a lot and I don't
think that it's something Iagree with.
Tatiana (04:28):
Yeah.
No, absolutely.
And it is, it's, it's scary asyou start to learn more and more
about what this stage of lifemeans for women in particular,
it's mind blowing just how muchthere is, right.
That we didn't know, and we'reall just kind of feeling our way
in the darkness and trying to,to make the best of a situation
that doesn't need to be sochallenging.
Belinda (04:48):
Yeah.
And, and while it is that space,you know, it's, it's been that
taboo space.
The impact and the ripple effectof it is, is so vast because if
we think about it, it doesaffect women in midlife.
But we know that per can startanywhere from around 35 as our
estrogen starts to decline.
(05:09):
Well, it does affect thatparticular woman.
That woman might also be holdingthe space as mother or as
daughter or as partner or, youknow, there's so many roles and,
and we're now living with thesewomen who maybe are seeing that
transition point and that changein, in who they are and how they
feel.
So it's a, it, it isn'teverybody impact, even though
(05:32):
women are, are the ones livingwith it.
Tatiana (05:35):
Yeah.
Very well said.
So on that note, then can, maybewe should go back to your own
journey with spirituality andthen we can see how that inco
like leads into
Belinda (05:47):
Yeah.
Tatiana (05:48):
the midlife juncture.
So what's the, sparked yourinterest in spirituality?
Belinda (05:54):
Reflecting on this, so I grew up in.
Anglo Christian household,although not, not your go to
church on Sundays.
Mom, my mom and dad, uh, metthrough the church, but it was
Friday Youth Group, so I don'tknow that it was, uh, it was
that, you know, in, in everySunday type of thing.
So we, I.
(06:15):
We for our family, it was off toSunday school on Sundays and,
and we were a bit older youthgroup.
And as I aged, it didn't seemto, that idea of organized
religion didn't seem to resonatefor me because I would see
people who, who were religious,but who.
Sometimes weren't the nicest ofpeople.
(06:36):
So as a, as a sort of emergingteen, there was that real
questioning of, well, is thisactually the nicest and most
compassionate way for people tobe?
I.
I do know that, uh, there was acouple of, of points where I
moved back towards the church alittle bit.
So I I lost my best friend whenwe were 20.
(06:57):
He died in a car accident andthat was, that pulled me back to
that space of, of.
Needing something.
And I attended church for alittle while and, and you know,
in all honesty, the localreverend, he was, he was amazing
support for my family at that,that time, because although he
was a friend, he was also almostpart of the, you know,
(07:17):
unofficial family.
So it was a really huge loss.
But I also know how religionplayed a part in, in his death
as well, because he was raisedas, you know, Vietnamese
Catholic, and despite the factthat he didn't go to church and
he was not, not a religiousperson, it was, you know, that
(07:38):
the family needing that service.
Again, it put that realdisruption point for me around
religion versus spirituality andbeliefs and, and that type of
thing.
And I think that kicked inagain, probably around my cancer
diagnosis.
So all of a sudden at, at 26 outof nowhere, being faced with
(07:59):
your own mortality, it reallyleads to that, that questioning
space.
And, and again, like most of uswho, who reach a challenge
point, we, we go looking, we trwe try to seek reason or, or
rhyme to it.
And I sort of floated backtowards the church and I have
this moment of sitting in achurch service.
(08:21):
And the resonance of the singingwas overwhelming.
Like I just felt such anemotional positioning there.
But it was an overwhelm and, andI didn't go back after that.
It was just, it was too much forwhatever reason.
And I sort of put it all asidefor a while, but emerging in the
side was sort of an interest inBuddhism.
Tatiana (08:43):
Right.
Belinda (08:43):
So it aligned better with my own sense of beliefs.
So this idea of so for me,heaven didn't make logical
sense.
And it was a logical part of mybrain, which, you know, that's
why we psychologists.
But there was that idea thatthere wasn't.
There was this place that we allwent to if we were good, but if
(09:05):
we were bad, then we wentsomewhere else.
And the human can be both forthose things.
So we can have moments where weare incredibly compassionate and
there are other times where weare maybe not so great.
And it didn't, it didn't sort ofresonate for me.
So, moving into something, the,the other thing that sat there
was this idea that, how did wejust stop existing?
(09:28):
Like how to get, and thatprobably started to question
with, with my friends passing,like, how do we just stop?
And that idea of energy.
And I think that for me, movinginto that need for some type of
maybe structure I startedexploring Buddhism and, and it
(09:49):
felt like a, a more comfortablefit in some of the beliefs that
sat there.
Tatiana (09:54):
Oh wow.
Fantastic.
So what would you say was thefirst, I guess, spiritual
concept that you began yourexploration with?
Like when you actually startedto dive into understanding
spirituality.
Philosophy.
Belinda (10:11):
I really think that, I think it comes back to that
notion of existence, like how dowe just exist and then not
exist?
How do we.
How do we find joy in spaces butnot others?
How do we connect with somepeople and not others?
So that idea of it's, it's notas black and white as the way we
(10:34):
live our lives according to abook, uh, to a book.
There are sort of so many otherelements to human existence
distance that aren't easilyexplained.
And there was a curiosity inthere about what is this?
Thing, how do I connect withself?
How do I connect with others?
How do I connect with myenvironment?
(10:55):
And I think the curiosity aboutthe spiritual space was all sort
of fed by those, thosequestions.
Tatiana (11:04):
Yeah.
Fantastic.
So what benefits for you on apersonal level first did you
find from having spiritual, aspiritual perspective or
incorporating spirituality intoyour life?
Belinda (11:18):
I think, I think the notion of getting to know self
in a way that isn't necessarilywritten in doctrine.
Tatiana (11:28):
Mm-hmm.
Belinda (11:29):
that makes sense.
So that, that freedom to be, tolive without that level of
judgment.
Tatiana (11:36):
Mm-hmm.
Belinda (11:37):
if we, if we come back to that spirituality versus
religion space, that it's notjust that straightforward.
It is or it isn't becausethere's humans are not black and
white per se.
We're quite gray in our, in ourexistence.
I think viewing things from a, abigger picture that
(11:58):
interconnectedness.
There's a part of me and, andit's not really spirituality,
but I think as, as humans tothink that we are the only
existence in the universe ispretty arrogant.
The universe.
That's right.
That's right.
So I think that, I think thatthat perspective, and whether we
call that spirituality or, orwhat word we wanna label, I
(12:19):
think that idea that you know,we exist for a short time, but
what is, what is the purpose andintent?
How do we connect and, and what,what resonates for us?
And I think resonance is reallyimportant in spirituality.
Tatiana (12:32):
Oh, 100%.
Yeah.
Because I think that's, that'show we start to identify the
things that speak to us on thatdeeper level.
Right.
And, and start to lead us back.
Back into the right path asopposed to knowing when we're in
spaces that don't actually fit.
Belinda (12:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and also I think not justthat, but living under doctrines
and beliefs that don't seem to,to fit either.
So I, I very much have a strongbelief, belief in the power of
kindness and compassion.
And I think that some of thethings that we see show up in,
(13:08):
in a, across a multitude ofreligious spaces aren't
necessarily compassionate orkind.
And so I think the space ofspirituality allows us to lean
into what we believe our beliefsand purposes are,
Tatiana (13:23):
Hmm.
Belinda (13:24):
and without judgment.
Tatiana (13:26):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Absolutely.
'cause I think when you havethat perspective, you can also
appreciate the fact that we'reall on this journey of evolving
as individuals, right?
And we, we're all at differentstages, but we're all kind of
working towards becoming abetter version of ourselves or
a, you know, a more fullyrealized version of ourselves.
And you can, you can give peoplegrace when you can see that.
Belinda (13:49):
and I definitely have an inherent belief in the
goodness of people.
some call it naive.
I just call it the way I wannaperceive the world.
Tatiana (13:58):
Well, I am wired the same way Bell, so
Belinda (14:02):
I love that.
Tatiana (14:02):
I'm gonna biasly agree with you.
I do think most of us are good,and even those of us that
aren't, we're not bad.
We're just, uh, not aware.
Belinda (14:14):
Yeah.
Or, or learning.
Tatiana (14:16):
Yeah.
Learning.
Belinda (14:17):
I think it's the intent behind what we, what we sort of
put out and try to do in theworld.
That's important and, andsometimes it doesn't always land
as, as kindly or ascompassionately as it could.
Tatiana (14:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
So have you found that there'sbeen any opportunity for you to
weave some of this into your,like your professional
offerings?
And if so, like what kind ofbenefits have you found from
doing that?
Belinda (14:49):
Yeah, sorry.
It's interesting.
I was, I was trained 20 yearsago in psychology.
Tatiana (14:55):
Mm-hmm.
Belinda (14:56):
And there was part of our training that talked about
how do we bring someone'sspirituality or their religion
into the room.
Like it was part of that whole,whole person sitting with us as
opposed to what can sometimes bequite a medicalized or
pathologized model.
Uh, I think if we see the wholeperson.
That is, that has so much morevalue.
(15:17):
And there will be times whereI'm sitting with clients and,
and I will ask, you know, so, sotell me about how faith or
spirituality or religion, youknow, feeds into this situation
and, and finding that peopleparticularly in crisis will,
will revert to that.
Space of, of faith on, on aslightly tangent, but similar
(15:41):
note sitting with clients whoare our indigenous populations,
our First nations people, likethat's that connection to, to
country and, and asking aboutthat.
And I recall one, one person whowas, was having quite a time
and.
They hadn't mentioned anywhereabout this, this their, their
(16:04):
cultural heritage and they saidsomething around they hadn't
been to visit their grandmotherwho was an aboriginal.
And, and I just sort of, I askedthe question, you know, where's
your mob?
When was the last time you wereon country?
Tatiana (16:18):
Mm.
Belinda (16:18):
And there was a physical reaction to that.
There was almost like a, a.
A holding that they let go andthey physically just sort of
just slumped into that.
And they said, it is so longsince someone has asked me that.
And they were able to talk aboutit and reflect on it and what it
meant to them.
(16:39):
Now did that provide healing?
I don't know.
I do know that they, they, theytook two weeks off sessions and,
and went back to country for acouple of weeks because that
they, they went back because forthem they're like, you're right.
I need some healing.
So it looks like so many thingsfor so many people, and we don't
have the answers, but we can askthe questions for people to
explore their own space.
Tatiana (17:00):
Absolutely.
It's about giving them thatpermission.
Right?
Because I think that, yeah, forsome people there's a
misconception that that's notthe space for those sorts of
conversations.
Belinda (17:09):
no.
Tatiana (17:10):
But if we're talking about human existence and human
experience, we're talking aboutall of
Belinda (17:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I've had clients sit with meand, and there's another memory
that sits there a number ofyears ago now about someone who
was asking me about my, mythoughts around death and, and
what that was.
And, and I thought that was areally unusual question,
particularly as we knew that itwas the last session we were
going to be sitting in that wedecided that, you know, therapy
got to point where they were.
They were doing okay.
(17:35):
And, and this was our last sortof check in.
And I sort of gave, gave abrief, but then the curiosity as
to why you asked that.
And they felt a, a connection asthey saw it with people who had
passed.
And that was, that was part oftheir spiritual.
Awake your awarenesses that theyhad this and, and they mentioned
(17:56):
that there'd been a spirithanging around the room.
And well, two actually, and, andI just said, I, I didn't know
really how to reply and I justsaid, oh, I'm, I'm sorry about
that.
And the interesting thing is shesaid to me sort of, ah, so and
describe them.
And she's like, do you know whothat might be?
And I'm like, yeah, I'm prettysure if, if you are detecting
(18:18):
spirits, I can probably know whothey are.
And I'm, I'm sorry.
They've been annoying.
But you know, that, that justpermission, uh, you know, I
wasn't psycho pathologizingthem.
I wasn't saying, oh, you know,delusional hallucinations, but
this person was very comfortableand, and in that space, and it
was that questioning about, do Ihave permission to share this
experience with you in the room?
(18:40):
And it was a, the curiosity ofthe therapist to allow that
space for people to explorewhat's there.
Tatiana (18:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
I was even having thisconversation earlier today with
some other colleagues about thefact that really our training is
lacking significantly in helpingus be able to discern between
spiritual abilities.
Like mediumship or web, youknow, individuals can connect
with spirit and receive thosesorts of communications versus
(19:07):
psychosis.
Those two exist, but they'redistinct.
and we now have a lot ofscientific data that shows that,
like that the identifyingfactors that you would use to
discern one from the
Belinda (19:22):
Mm.
Tatiana (19:24):
and why aren't we not being trained in, in identifying
these things?
And so, Yeah.
Belinda (19:29):
And, and it's, it's, it's curious.
I think early on, sort of myexperience of that type of space
was, uh, I, I went to have areiki healing.
I was in a place of change in mylife and was looking for things.
So I went to Reiki healing and,and.
The practitioner said, I alsochannel people who've passed.
(19:50):
Are you interested?
And I'm super skeptical and, andmy brain went to, you know, and,
and without the sounding crass,but what my brain thought was,
you know, I'll bring on the pastor the deceased grandparent
because I was at that age whereI would likely have a deceased
grandparent or a, or a greatgrandparent.
They sort of got to a point andthey said, someone's come
through.
Do you wanna know?
(20:10):
And I'm like, sure.
Cynical self.
And they, they basicallyidentified, and I mentioned that
I had a friend who passed awayat 20 and they basically said to
me, A young man has come throughand he, and he wants to know why
you're angry with him.
I was like, fully died.
And, and that was really, thatwas really curious because they
(20:32):
were, they actually gave anotherreally strong piece of
information that they couldn'thave known.
And so I remember they were sortof hovering around my, I, my
cancer was cervical.
They were sort of hovering.
They said, you've had cancer.
And I'm like, mm-hmm.
Like, I'm not giving youanything here.
Tatiana (20:48):
Yeah.
Yeah,
Belinda (20:49):
and they just said, you know, they want me, they want me
to tell you that you're okay.
Tatiana (20:54):
yeah.
Belinda (20:55):
it was.
And, and
Tatiana (20:56):
Yeah.
Belinda (20:56):
it, it wasn't a medium reading and not that I, I'm, you
know, either way on those, itwas, it was a$30 reiki healing.
So there was no gain.
There was no gain for thisperson in that space.
And that was enough for me togo, oh, there's something there.
I'll respect it at arm's length.
Tatiana (21:16):
yeah.
Fair enough.
Path.
Making sense, all those sort ofexperiences right, resonates
Belinda (21:27):
And I think, I think it is becoming harder in that we
put, we leave so much of adigital footprint now, so I
think that unfortunately thereis a space for people who are
maybe less than ethical to, tolean into that, you know, track
that digital footprint.
But, there was, I, I had no realdigital footprint.
I don't even think I hadFacebook back then.
(21:47):
So Yeah.
So there was, there was reallynowhere that it, it could have
been gathered from.
So it was curious, but itcertainly it was it sort of like
an evidential proof almost, orin an anecdotal way that someone
knew something that theycouldn't or shouldn't have.
Tatiana (22:04):
Yes.
And then that.
Belinda (22:10):
Yeah.
But then from a therapyperspective, if somebody was
bringing that through a room,what would we start thinking of,
of their behaviors?
Would we try to pathologizethem?
Would we start, you know,wondering and, and I think
you're absolutely right.
The training for therapists tobe able to distinguish between
those two spaces and at least becurious enough to ask the
(22:31):
questions is really important inour, in our space to go forward
as a profession.
I.
Tatiana (22:37):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
So on that, and you know, I've,I've spoken very openly on this
podcast, but also I think insome conversations that you and
I have had and other people thatwe know have had around the fear
that permeates us in ourprofession around talking about
spirituality, I think it's, it'sdefinitely a, a much more open
(23:00):
landscape today, but like Iwould say 10 years ago to be a
psychologist in a room talkingopenly about this stuff,
mediumship and things like that,like that just wouldn't happen.
So would from your, like yourown lived experience, have you
had any fears around, I guess,combining those two things,
being a psychologist and beingspiritually minded?
(23:21):
And if so, how did you overcomethat fear?
Belinda (23:24):
I think that.
Because, you know, I'm, 20 yearsago this was, this was part of
our conversation when sittingwith people sort of, I guess
there's that old school trainingthat.
We sit with the person with allof their parts you know, and,
and that is if they'respiritual, if they're holistic,
if they're and it is to supportthem and advocate for them where
(23:45):
they're at while being mindfulof whether or not this is, you
know, impacting in any big way.
Because what we are looking foris, is this causing harm?
Tatiana (23:54):
Yes.
Belinda (23:55):
And I, I really believe that the profession has swung
too far The other way that weare also fearful of having human
conversations.
I.
That we can sit with that, thatrisk.
And do I raise this with, isthis person going to put a
complaint in?
There is a, it's a sadindictment in the profession
(24:17):
when we have a general termwhere we refer to our, our
professional body as a, orsorry, our registrate
registering body as a jail.
Like that is, that is a.
That isn't got, that has to beaddressed in some ways.
And I believe that they'retrying, I know the latest psych
Board of Australia came out withthat.
They're going to try and make itnot so for be, can't find a
(24:40):
better word right now, but witchhunty.
So there is, there is that idea.
I hadn't thought about that, butYeah, absolutely.
But I, I do, I do think if Iwas.
You know, and it doesn't meanthat I'm immune to complaints or
anything.
I think being in the professionfor a little bit longer has, has
(25:02):
sort of allowed me the space tofeel a calmness and, and being
able to read my clients andwhich ones that I would raise
this conversation with and whichones I wouldn't.
I think if I were new into theprofession now, I think it would
be a really hard topic toapproach.
I don't think there's thetraining in new graduates for
this.
I don't, I think it's more apathologized, you know, the
(25:25):
first two sessions should reallyabout be about treatment
planning is, is what I hear.
And, you know, make sure thatyou've got a treatment plan and
you've, you've done this andyou've diagnosed and you've
medicalized
Tatiana (25:36):
Yeah.
Belinda (25:37):
and my first session is, hey.
Let's have a chat and find outwho you are.
You know, the questions.
I definitely sit under apositive psychology framework,
so that might be a little bitdifferent.
But the questions I do my spielat the beginning, you know, here
are the, here are theboundaries.
This is, you know, if you tellme this, then I may need to seek
support outside the room.
We know them, the interestspiel, but my questions for my
(26:00):
clients on a first session istwo things.
I'm curious in what got youthrough the door and if coming
to see me made a difference,what might that look like?
Tatiana (26:09):
Yeah.
Belinda (26:10):
questions
Tatiana (26:11):
Beautiful.
Belinda (26:13):
clients can, so can't sometimes tell you why they're
coming to see you.
Tatiana (26:18):
No,
Belinda (26:18):
That, and then it might take two sessions and we might
treatment plan in the firstsession and third session,
they're like, I actually I'm analcoholic.
But until there's a trust in thespace.
So if we spend, if we spend thefirst two hours medicalizing our
space and not connecting, thenhow do we establish that
therapeutic alignment, you know?
(26:40):
Yeah.
Where people are comfortable tosay, I have an issue with
alcohol, or I'm questioning myspirituality.
Or whatever it is that is inthere.
Like, am I going crazy becauseall of a sudden I, I feel like I
can, you know, I, I feel like Iknow what's gonna happen.
Am I crazy?
You know, have I got a braintumor?
Tatiana (26:59):
Yeah.
Belinda (27:00):
You know, or, or women in midlife who come in and can't
find their words and think theyhave dementia like.
Tatiana (27:06):
Oh gosh, yes.
That's me at the moment.
Belinda (27:11):
Yeah, if we look at the medicalization of the menopause
peral space, women are beingsent to multiple medical
professionals.
So, oh, you've got a soreshoulder.
It's probably frozen.
So shoulder, go and see this.
Oh, your feet hurt.
You need a podiatrist.
Oh, you've got a burning sensasensation on your tongue.
Oh, you probably need to go andsee, you know, a a third, A ENT
(27:34):
type.
Because that's, whereas theseare all, if we have a chat with
someone, we might go, actually,the alignment here is there are
perimenopause symptoms, so wherewe leave the human outside the
room and whether that's theirpresentation, their
spirituality, then we are, youare risking losing what makes
(27:54):
our profession thatcompassionate profession.
It should be.
Tatiana (28:00):
yeah.
But also, but also worryingineffective in helping our
clients.
Belinda (28:05):
Yeah,
Tatiana (28:06):
Because we're only in, and I don't speak just for
psychology.
I think it's all of all ofhealth.
When we're just looking atsymptoms or we're like looking
at systems, like components ofpeople, we're missing the whole
process.
Like the whole context.
It's all happening in, right?
Belinda (28:22):
That, that silo siloing of, of the medical profession.
Actually, I think I.
Things are being missed.
Gps don't have time.
He used to be the holder and,and the conduit of all the
knowledge at Central Point.
They're so very busy now, and,and they get what, 10, 15
minutes with a person toactually say, oh, you've got
(28:43):
seven reports here that are allreport.
You know, I think we, we aremissing that and I.
In a way, I feel like aspsychologists, we are privileged
because if someone sits with us,there's an expectation that we
are with them from 50 minutes toan hour and we can get those
other pieces.
And, and I know there hasdefinitely been times where I've
needed to feed some of thatinformation back to the GP
(29:04):
around the context of what,what's going on, because the GP
has only had 10 minutes and, andbeen under that pressure.
Tatiana (29:12):
Yeah, 100%.
So I do hope that things arestarting to shift away from
that.
And like I know obviously thatin our.
In psychology in Australia,they're introducing some new
competencies from the end ofthis year that are going to ask
us to look at individuals alittle bit more holistically,
right?
Like, we'll factor in otheraspects of, of their lived
experience, like their, theircultural aspects, their
(29:36):
neurodivergent needs but alsotheir spiritual beliefs.
So.
I, yeah, we're starting to kindof course correct.
But we need to be
Belinda (29:45):
It's always gonna be a pendulum, isn't it?
I do believe that we need tokeep our professional ethical
hats on.
I don't think we need topathologize as much as some
parts of our professionalpushing.
Tatiana (30:01):
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, I mean this is not aconversation for this podcast,
but like just a lot like thefact that today people can have
five or six diagnostic labelsblows my mind.
Belinda (30:15):
Yeah.
Tatiana (30:15):
Right.
I'm pretty sure we are supposedto identify the one that
explains the most,
Belinda (30:21):
Yeah.
That's why we have differentialdiagnosis, isn't it?
Tatiana (30:24):
Exactly, because most there, there's overlap in most
things, but when like, you can'tpossibly have all these things,
like you're just explaining, oh,this explains this symptom, this
explains that symptom again.
Like that's how you end up withtoo many labels and it's, yeah,
it's
Belinda (30:40):
and, and I think it's, I think it's confusing for our,
the people we sit with too,whether we call them our
patients or our clients, becausethe DSM is constantly expanding.
And there's more, myprofessional opinion and my
personal opinion is that thereare more things in there that
are, are, are in some ways justnormal human traits.
Tatiana (31:00):
Agreed
Belinda (31:02):
but then we also see with the, you know, the
expansion of social mediaclients now coming to us saying,
Hey, I think I've got this.
I saw it on TikTok.
And, and, and I'm just like, letme get my dsm, let's run through
this.
Let's have a look at it.
So, yes, but you know, I knowyou're saying this, but it can
(31:23):
also be explained by the factthat you already have a
diagnosis of this.
You know?
So I think that there are somany elements to existing as a
human that I think we need tovalue all of them.
Tatiana (31:36):
Absolutely.
That's why it all needs to beintegrated, right?
Like, Yeah, we're, we're muchmore powerful that way.
And then we can empower ourclients much more that way.
Belinda (31:44):
Yeah.
Isn't that what we want though?
Isn't I often, I joke that wehave like the worst business
model ever because our, ouractual, you know, target is for
our clients not to need usanymore.
Tatiana (32:00):
Uh, I make the same joke with my clients.
My goal here is to becomeobsolete in your life.
Belinda (32:07):
It's business model ever.
Tatiana (32:11):
It really is.
Uh, but yeah, but it's true.
So, okay, so on that.
What value do you see forpsychologists and therapists in
general in embracing theirspiritual selves or at least be
more curious about spirituality?
Belinda (32:27):
Uh, I think there is so much value in.
Having and knowing that part ofyourself.
Tatiana (32:35):
Hmm,
Belinda (32:35):
We sit in rooms with people where we can be advocate,
we can be challenger, we can besupport guide, like whatever
word or or role we wanna use,but having that idea of being.
Grounded in our, withinourselves, I truly believe has a
flow on effect to our clients.
(32:56):
If you're sitting with somebodywho is, is grounded and I think
spirituality can can assist withthat sense of feeling grounded.
I think that we in that spacejust allow a safer space for our
clients.
Tatiana (33:11):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
But even on a personal level,what would you say
Belinda (33:17):
For me, it, it's so vast, really.
Uh, I am very much, I, I.
Do my best to live my lifealigned to Buddhist ethics.
So, you know, kindness,compassion, you know, being a
decent human.
If, if you look that, that waswhat drew me to Buddhism in that
(33:40):
it's really, I remember beingquestioned when I was not being
questioned, but someone waschatting with me because I was
looking at doing my triple gem.
Which is your first sort of, Iguess, movement into being a, a.
I don't know, noticed orregistered, but I don't know.
It's, anyway, you do your triplegem as your first step and the
(34:02):
one of it is so is that there'ssort of five ways to live your
life and, and I remember sittingwith this person and they told
me, and I'm like, oh, sobasically just being a decent
human.
It's like, it's like, don't,don't hurt people when you're
in, you know, don't move into,into drug use or things that are
gonna sort of have you break theothers, you know, don't cheat,
(34:25):
don't steal, don't lie.
Like just the, the basic thingsthat we see as, as, as common
decency.
So I really like that.
I have an anchoring point forthat helps me with.
Decision making and living.
So, you know, I very much, youknow, sit with that, you know,
kindness of thoughts, kindnessof words, kindness indeed that
they're very tenant to myself.
(34:47):
But then there's other thingsbeyond that that I can't explain
the fact that when I am bybeach, I am a karma person.
I have that resonance in thatwater space and, and for me
that, that leans into thatspiritual home.
The curious thing is, uh,recently I was, I've been
looking at a little bit at humandesign just on the side, and
Tatiana (35:09):
Oh yeah.
Belinda (35:09):
it came up with my, my space is Sure.
And I'm just like, likeS-H-O-R-E and I'm just like,
yep.
By the water.
Tatiana (35:16):
There you go.
Belinda (35:17):
It was just, so I think that the fact that we have that,
that bigger.
Is really important and, and howwe wanna word that and where
that sits in our space, I thinkis, is very personal thing, but
having it allows us just to leaninto being the person we want
(35:39):
more.
Tatiana (35:40):
Yeah.
100%.
So beautifully said.
So on that, a final reflection,if you had to pick one
transformative aspect ofembracing spirituality more
fully, both on that personal andprofessional level, what aspect
would that be for you?
Belinda (35:58):
The first thing that comes to mind is gonna sound
weird, and that is justconnection to the breath.
Tatiana (36:04):
Okay.
Belinda (36:05):
for me.
Breath is life.
It's, you know, the differentspaces have different words for
it.
But I think if we wanna reallythink about everything that is
in our, in our world justbreath, come to the breath,
connect with your breath, andyou connect with bigger things
and you connect with yourself.
It is our conduit between theout and the end.
Tatiana (36:27):
That's so true.
Lovely.
Uh, so I do have a, a bit of atradition where I get my guests
to recommend a book to the, uh,our listeners where they can
begin their journey withexploring spirituality if
they're curious about doingthat.
And I would love to hear whatyour recommendation is.
Belinda (36:52):
It is, it's, it's curious because from
spirituality, I don't know thatI've actually read too much that
would, that I would think wouldsit under that.
But definitely the temple.
I serve master s.
He's, his work is always very'cause humanistic Buddhism, it's
how do we be Buddhists in likea, in a modern world.
(37:13):
I think it's, is reallyimportant.
But, uh, I do remember, and I'mtrying to remember the name of
it, and it was something likeZen and the Modern Girl or
something.
It was really, I had that book.
It was so dogeared because itwas just about.
Ways to approach things justwith a sense of calm and coming
back to breath.
(37:34):
And that was one that, thatreally resonated for me.
And, and somewhere along the wayit got, it was lost.
But it, it lived beside my bedand it was so dogeared.
And I don't normally do that tobooks.
I'm usually respectful and booksget bookmarks.
But this one, it was way moreone that lived with me.
It was a living book for me.
Tatiana (37:52):
Yeah.
Oh, wonderful.
I'll add a link to the shownotes to that one.
It's, I've had so many differentbooks and poems and all sorts of
things suggested, like my, mypile of reading material just
grows and grows and grows.
Belinda (38:06):
Yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll I'll definitely get the name
through the, I'll, I'll jumponline and find it because it
was just so practical and, andit was, it was sort of a bit of
a life manual at a time when Ineeded it.
Tatiana (38:17):
Fantastic.
And, and look, there may not bea neat connection on this right
now, but from that, like thatmidlife perspective and some,
what, some of the things thatyou are, you are witnessing in
your space and in your work,where do you see spiritually
fitting into that, if at all?
It may not,
Belinda (38:37):
Oh, I, I definitely think it has a space.
Spirituality comes up often forus when we hit change or crisis.
And if we consider what ourwomen in midlife experience
around perimenopause,particularly with the silencing
of it, the, it's just in yourhead, which it probably is a
(38:58):
little bit because we have,well, we have estrogen and
neuroreceptors all at work inthe brain.
So it is, part of it is an ahead, but the reality is that we
will often go seeking.
I think when we don'tunderstand, and when
perimenopause and midlife startto, to sort of impact, we know
(39:19):
it is a, a stage of crisis.
We know the statistics aroundmental health and mental health
risk increase for women in, inthat perimenopause age group.
Uh, so we know that there iscrisis that sits there.
For some women though, if wehave a look at who.
Might find spirituality in theiryoga practice or who do we see
(39:41):
that, that are moving towardsallowing the hair to grow out
and wearing the beads?
And, you know, if, if we thinkabout, if we think about the
people who traditionally mightbe sort of around, for me it's
sort of, you know, themullumbimby area or, or moving
down.
You know who, who are the Byron?
(40:01):
There's a lot of women who usethat as actually, I need to
connect to myself in differentways.
And I think spirituality has abeautiful place in that,
particularly as our estrogendecreases and we become more
mindful of our own needs asopposed to the needs of others.
So estrogen is a very caringhormone.
It is.
(40:22):
It.
We see it happen, you know,we've got three main estrogen
dominance points in our orinfluencing points.
So we've got sort of puberty,pregnancy, and perimenopause.
And estrogen plays a role ineach of those phases.
So when we see it decliningbeing such a caring hormone, or
it influences our caring nature,when we see that in decline.
(40:43):
And our estrogen, testosteronestarts to, the ratios start to
change.
Tatiana (40:49):
Yeah.
Belinda (40:49):
find that women start to rediscover themselves because
that caring component of theirpersonality is lessening.
And for a lot of women that willlead that curiosity about
spirituality.
I hear a lot of women say, oh,when I was younger I used to
think about this, but I lostthat summer along the way, and
(41:10):
I'm curious about it again.
Tatiana (41:12):
Wow, how fast, how fascinating.
Belinda (41:16):
Yeah.
Tatiana (41:16):
So, yeah, like it brings you to this, it awakens
this need for authenticity,
Belinda (41:22):
Yeah,
Tatiana (41:23):
right?
And I guess rediscovering andredefining yourself and.
An intuitive understanding thatyou need to have that spiritual
component.
Belinda (41:33):
Yeah.
And, and I was sitting behi, Iwas standing behind a lady in a
shop the other day who, who wasprobably a few years older than
me, and she was talking tosomeone else.
She said, oh, aging is great.
You give less cares about anyoneelse, what anyone else thinks.
And I'm like, oh, I really, thatjust, that made me smile
because.
When we do have the freedom notto be using all of our time for
(41:55):
caring for others, and, and thatdoesn't mean that we've
necessarily been in the role of,uh, mother, but we are as, as by
nature.
Uh, women have estrogen, whichimpacts that caring role.
So when that starts to diminish,it actually allows time for
self.
Tatiana (42:13):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Belinda (42:17):
So I think it's got a huge space.
Tatiana (42:20):
Yes.
Yeah, it does.
It'll be interesting to see asthe conversation start evolving,
like now that it's being muchmore widely spoken of and and
understood whether, yeah, thesesorts of concepts start weaving
in a little bit more
Belinda (42:34):
Yeah.
I would have to challenge thoughthat, I don't know, it is being
more widely spoken about.
But unless you're actually inthat circle, it's, it's not like
I sit with people who I justassume everybody knows what I
know.
And, and sitting with people,you know, I had two women last
(42:54):
week who had been, I.
You know, referred and at nopoint had their menopause
transition been addressed by anyother person they were seeing.
So while we, when we're inthere, we, we have that idea
that everybody's feeling thisway.
There's still a lot of work tobe done.
Mm-hmm.
Tatiana (43:11):
No.
No doubt.
Absolutely.
And you're one the champions inthat space, which is.
Belinda (43:17):
Uh, absolutely.
I, I've got a real passion forit and I could talk all day on
it, as you probably know.
I also feel that, you know, I, Iwanna expand that ripple effect.
And, and I think not justtherapists, but, but anyone
who's sort of working alongsidewomen or children of those women
or partners of those women thatall have a space, uh, to do
(43:39):
that.
As a friend of mine who was, uh,a marathon runner was.
Told by a physio that, oh,you've just a little bit sore
because you passed your years bydate.
Like, like that therapist needsto know that it's better place
to talk.
Tatiana (43:53):
Especially in this day and age when we're leaving too
close to a hundred.
Belinda (43:56):
Yeah.
Well, no, she was, she wastraining for like an overseas,
like, I think it was New York orBoston Marathon or something.
So.
Tatiana (44:03):
That's crazy.
Wow.
Alright.
No, definitely lots, lots ofneed.
Lots of change needed.
Well, thank you so much for, youknow, for coming on and, and
sharing your, your experienceand your insights and wisdom.
I really appreciate you agreewith and talk about this stuff.
Belinda (44:22):
Oh, I'm great.
I'm so grateful for you not onlygiving me this space, but for
all of the, all of the guestsand people who come on, and the
clients that you sit with.
I think it's such a beautiful,beautiful work that you do and,
and I feel privileged andgrateful that, you know, you
allow the space for my voice andothers.
Tatiana (44:39):
Oh, thank you.
And on that, I would love foryou to share a little bit about,
you know, where people can findyou, how they can work with you.
Belinda (44:47):
Yeah, so my clinical work, so as as a straight
psychologist, straight up, Ihave a practice reset
psychology, and I'm based inswi, but telehealth, so that is
a space that where.
Perimenopause and menopause orwomen can come and feel free to
talk about this stuff and to besupported Beyond that, I have
(45:10):
flourished beyond, which is aspace where I wanna influence
changing the narrative aroundmidlife and, and what it means.
So the menopause, so women inmidlife, menopause, all of the
different changes, perimenopauseand so flourish beyond.
You can find me on bothInstagram and Facebook.
There.
Tatiana (45:31):
Okay, fantastic.
I'll put all the links in theshow notes for anyone who wants
to connect with Bell.
And once again, I'm so excitedto have had you here.
Thank you for the conversation,and I hope.
All your listeners, have a greatweek and I'll see you all next
time.
(45:53):
Thank you for tuning into thisepisode of Integrated Wisdom.
It's my sincere wish thattoday's episode may have
intrigued and inspired you toreclaim your power and step into
becoming more fully integratedspiritual beings.
New episodes are published everysecond Wednesday, and I hope
(46:13):
you'll continue to join us as wedive deeper into what it means
to live an integrated life.
So if it feels aligned to you, Iinvite you to hit subscribe.
Share it with others who youfeel may benefit too.
Meals will find me on Instagramat integrated underscore wisdom.
Remember, each moment is anopportunity to embrace your
(46:36):
divine potential and create aworld that is more frequently
inspired.
So for now, stay connected, stayinspired, and keep shining your
light into the world.
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