November 2, 2025 • 42 mins
We trace how Darwin and Freud shaped cultural ideas about sex and how these philosophies have infiltrated even modern religion.
- Darwin and Freud both rejected a divine order of the universe or a spiritual guide for moral and ethical living. Their influences profoundly shape the course of modern philosophy and our current society.
- Many modern Christians have unwittingly adopted influences from Darwin and Freud into their own theology, especially in how we approach sexuality and sexual desire.
- We must reject the idea that sex is purely biological or that sex is in contrast to spirituality. The Bible teaches that sexuality is created by God with spiritual significance, purpose and importance.
Warning: We cover necessary and important topics about the marriage relationship and sex. We use frank language without being crude or crass. Our approach is biblical and wholesome, but not intended for singles — especially not for children.
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Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
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Intimate Covenant | Matt & J
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hey Jen, want to talk about Darwinian evolution?
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Uh, I'd rather just sail to a remote island and
watch birds.
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Today on the podcast, we're talking about the
influences of Charles Darwin andSigmund Freud on modern
Christian views of sexuality.
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Welcome.
We're Matt and Jen, and this isthe Intimate Covenant Podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
Where we believe the Bible and great married sex both
belong on your kitchen table.
That's right.
We are talking about godlymarriage and hot sex and
emotionally fulfilling oneness,and we are so grateful that
you've joined us.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Yeah, thanks for coming along with us.
If you'd like to find out moreabout us, you can do so by going
to our website,intimatecovenant.com.
And we would always love to hearfrom you.
Feel free to email us at podcastat intimatecovenant.com.
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
If you're new to the show, uh we again are Matt and
Jen.
We have been married for almost30 years.
Ooh, that sounds old.
Uh yes, uh maybe, maybe, maybetoo old.
Um, but uh our passion issharing God's plan for beautiful
and holy sexuality, uh,especially within the marriage
(01:12):
covenant.
And you have found the IntimateCovenant podcast where we
discuss God's plan for marriageand specifically we focus a
little bit on the sexual side ofmarriage, um, because a podcast
is a great place to do that,where I'm not looking in your
eyes, you're not looking in myeyes.
(01:33):
That's true.
Uh, but we can have someconversations here that we just
probably wouldn't otherwisehave.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
And if you haven't picked up on it as of yet, this
is a podcast intended formarried people.
Yep.
If you're not in the covenant ofmarriage, thanks for being
interested, but maybe pause andcome back when you are a married
person.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
There you go.
Uh, and we do have some uhmaterial that is appropriate for
singles, so feel free to emailus and we'd be happy to point
you in that direction.
SPEAKER_00 (02:00):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
So today on the podcast, we are talking about
Charles Darwin, Sigmund Freud,and the modern church's approach
to sexuality.
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Oh boy, that's gonna be a great episode, honey.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
That is a strange trio, admittedly.
Uh, but I promise we're gonnapull all of that together in
just a minute.
But first, uh, we did want toprovide you with uh maybe a
personal update, we'll call it,uh, a life update.
We probably owe you at leastsome explanation.
If you're a regular listener,you know, uh, or you I well, I
(02:36):
hope that you've noticed uh ourabsence um yet again.
Uh this has been uh achallenging year and what was
intended to be a monthlypodcast.
Um I think a little rough thisyear.
Yeah, I think Jen uh realizedthat to this to date, we have
put out uh now six episodes.
(02:58):
I think um and we should be muchfurther along than that.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
Well, yeah, given that it this is day one of the
11th month of the year, um, wedid have some incredibly joyful
um changes in our family thisyear.
Our youngest daughter graduatedhigh school um and started, um
we moved her off to college inAugust, which any of you out
(03:22):
there who are walking the roadof like last one leaving the
nest, you know that that is aplace of incredible excitement
and joy, and also some somelittle bit more bittersweet um
feelings that go along withthat.
Um, the exact same week that ourdaughter moved into college in
Florida, earlier that week, ourson got married in California.
(03:45):
Um, we literally went coast tocoast in one week with some
amazing, wonderful things.
Um, and we have now a beautifuldaughter in love that we are
just over the moon in excitementand enjoyment of her.
Um, so both of those things werehuge and wonderful changes in
our family that we're obviouslyadjusting to.
(04:07):
Um, but it's also been atremendously difficult year.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
Yeah, on a number of levels.
Uh well, we started out the yearlast year uh with this year.
Yeah, within a few days.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
It looks like it's been way more than a year.
Goodness.
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
With it within a few days of the new year, uh, Jen
had emergency surgery and washospitalized for a short period
of time and had a pretty longand difficult um physical
recovery um following thatsurgery.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
Yeah.
So you you didn't really hearfrom us the month of January,
February, thanks to that.
Um and right when we thought wewere gonna get our feet
underneath us in the month ofMarch, uh more troubles came our
way.
SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
Yeah.
Um we we faced some uhcriticism, some uh opposition.
Um I I think is maybe putting itprobably mildly, but we've we
faced some of that um frominternally within uh some some
of those whom we uh worshipwith.
(05:05):
And so we we've we just had somedifficulty in uh navigating that
and some difficulties thatreally lasted for several months
um in creating quite a bit ofturmoil in our own personal
lives and and uh uh with with alots lots of those whom we love
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Yeah, this podcast kind of came under some scrutiny
and and then um sadly someattacks.
Um, those that um just didn'trecognize the point of the
podcast, the um the intendedaudience of the podcast, and and
frankly, um have questionedwhether or not a podcast like
this um is is biblical, issomething that Christians ought
(05:49):
to be doing.
Um and so we have spent we'vespent the year trying to, we
spent the year soul searching,obviously, um and trying to
defend our work.
Um, and it's it has been reallyhard.
Um and then um just severalweeks after moving our daughter
(06:09):
into college and our son gettingmarried, my dad passed away.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Yeah, in the beginning of September.
And so that has just added tothe difficulty that that we have
faced.
Um and again, um not that Iguess we owe anybody an
explanation, but we do feel likewe want to explain to you um
where we've been, what's beengoing on, and and why there's
(06:36):
been such a a lack of podcastepisodes this year.
That's just more of that thathas contributed.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
I mean, we we always say, you know, something about
y'all being our friends, andthat's because that's true.
That's not just you know a aname we're throwing out there.
Um we do feel like, you know, somany of you have become our
friends, and um and because ofthat, we want to share with you
both our joys and ourchallenges.
(07:04):
Um, I had an amazing daddy and Imiss him every single day.
And I'm navigating what it is tolive without my daddy here.
Um and that's hard.
If you've lost a parent, youknow how very difficult that is.
Um so it's been a hard year.
(07:26):
It's been a really hard year.
Um, despite these challenges, wehad were able to still pull off,
by the grace of God, pull offour marriage retreat, which
happened just two weeks after mydad's funeral.
Um, we we had a wonderfulretreat, um, mostly to the
(07:47):
credit of Matt, who uh bore thelion's share work, um, pulling
it off this year.
Um, but also because of thegrace and just amazingness of
the couples that were able tojoin us.
And and even though it was umobviously a very, very difficult
time for me, it was so healingum to be surrounded by all of
(08:11):
those couples that were, youknow, there together to work on
their marriages, um, and justthe hugs um and the the support
meant a lot to me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
Yeah, we we did have a good attendance and so many
great people.
Uh so uh I'll just put that outthere as a plug.
I mean, you if you are notjoining us at the retreat, um,
you're really missing something.
And this year was it's powerful.
It's clearly no exception.
It was a powerful gathering andum really a testament to the the
(08:45):
good work that God uh is doingin all of you and uh the fact
that so many of you were able tobe such a blessing to us as well
in that time.
It was great.
We had very good conversations.
The material, some folks told usit was their favorite yet.
So I'm not sure how that couldbe because uh I'm not even sure
(09:05):
I was entirely mentally presentfor for the weekend, but um it
it was uh good conversations,and we are doing it again next
year.
We are um stay tuned for theexact dates.
We know that it will be in lateSeptember, um, as usual.
And as usual, of also uhregistration for next year will
(09:26):
open on February 14th.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
Just a coincidental date.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Um, I I think it's probably worth at this point
also just acknowledging andexpressing our gratitude for so
many of you, not just those ofyou at the retreat, but so many
of you who have noticed our uminconsistent uh presence on the
podcast and have reached out umand just expressed your um
(09:58):
condolences for those who knewof Jen's dad's passing, uh your
uh expressions of sympathy andoverwhelming support and love
for those of you who uh arefamiliar with some of the
difficulties that we've beenfacing um throughout the year.
Uh it it has been I I tellpeople all the time, we have
(10:19):
literally been overwhelmed withlove and support uh and just an
outpouring of um well wishes andprayers and thoughtful gifts and
cards and emails and textmessages.
It's just been overwhelming, andwe are so blessed to have so
many good people in our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
And and quite honestly, that has been
life-giving in a year that hasbeen so full of difficulties to
open up our emails and seesomeone who is essentially a
stranger to us, you know, sharewith us their story, the the the
way that this podcast hasimpacted them or our work.
(11:03):
Um, that is uh I don't I don'teven have the words for what
that is, other than life givingto to read those.
And so thank you all so much forsharing um with us in the the
trials of this year, but alsobeing there to hold our arms up
and be willing to to stand withus in a very, very difficult
(11:27):
year.
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and speaking of um strangersbecoming friends, yeah, uh in in
uh just a few weeks ago inOctober, uh we went to
Bloomington, Illinois.
Uh we met lots of new friends.
SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
Yeah, we had a marriage uh day there.
That one had been like on thebooks for quite a while.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
And I think we started planning this one like
three years ago, it feels likeyeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
And given the events of the year, it was obviously
very uh tempting to just bowout, and yet we chose not to.
Yeah.
So glad to.
And again, so so thankfulbecause it was also life-giving.
It was so good.
Um, you know, hopefully uh someof our new friends are listening
and we just want you to knowthat whatever you got out of
(12:15):
that, out of that weekend, wegot more.
Um, it was it was a very neededweekend for us as well.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
God God's timing there um was was apparent.
Uh we were we were very muchencouraged by that weekend.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
And it helped us remember the joy in this work
that we do and the joy it is tobe surrounded by other couples
who also are desiring to havenot just a good marriage, but a
great marriage.
And being willing to put in thatwork.
Um, there is something sopowerful that happens when you
(12:51):
get a room full of those kind ofcouples together.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Unquestionably.
Yes, it is it's palpable.
Uh, and so because of the joythat it is to be with you in
your own communities, we want tomake a special offer.
Never, never before have we madean offer like this, uh, but we
are just so motivated.
We have decided that for thenext three groups that book a
(13:17):
date with us for 2026, that is adate for us to come and to uh
share God's plan for marriage inyour community, for the next
three groups who book with us,we are going to waive our
speaking fees.
SPEAKER_00 (13:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Meaning, if you can get us there by taking care of
our travel and our lodging uhand whatever uh you know costs
uh uh that are uh that occur inputting on a uh a day like that,
if you can get us there, we willbe there.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Right.
And and we will be there nomatter the size of your group.
If you want to plan for 10couples to meet in your living
room, great.
If you can get a communitycenter and fill it with 50
couples, great.
You plan it, we will come.
Um, again, because it is such asource of joy for us.
(14:12):
And um and and we just love it.
We love getting to meet you.
We love getting to make newfriends, and we love getting to
share God's beautiful plan forintimate marriages with you in a
personable, one-on-one kind ofway that the marriage day
provides.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Yeah.
So reach out to us.
Let's figure out how we can makethat happen.
Uh, we want to do that with youand for you in your community.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
And you might be wondering so, what's happening
with the podcast?
Again, we've only put out ahandful of episodes this year.
Um, but we want to assure you umthat we we want to continue this
podcast.
Um, we believe in the power ofthis podcast.
We hear your stories.
(14:58):
Um, we know that the the gloryis not ours, it's God's.
Yes.
And we recognize what he doeswith this podcast.
And so if he wants us to keepserving in this way, we want to
assure you that it is firmly ourour plans to continue to do that
if he puts this work before us.
(15:20):
Um for the rest of the year,though, we've decided kind of
the easiest thing for us isgoing to put out, be to put out
a couple of QA episodes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
Yeah.
Obviously the holidays are abusy time for you and us.
Um, and we're looking forward tosome good times over the next
couple of months to maybe shiftthe uh tone of the the last uh
little bit of the year.
But we we uh are gonna put out acouple of QA episodes before the
new year.
That is the plan.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Some content from our retreat and from our most
recent marriage day.
SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
And then 2026 is to be determined.
Now, what is not to bedetermined is whether we're
going to keep doing it.
Okay, to be clear, like Jensaid.
But we are considering someformat changes, um, maybe a
little bit different ways to dothis, a different approach.
And we are looking for yourfeedback along those lines.
So um, if you are of an opinion,we would love to have it.
(16:17):
So, what we want to know fromyou is is a monthly podcast
enough?
Is it not enough?
Do we need to be doing this morefrequently along those lines?
Are you more interested in morefrequent but shorter episodes
versus the longer format that wehave done traditionally?
Um, another option that's beenthrown around is perhaps doing
(16:41):
weekly episodes in bursts, likedoing a season of you know, many
uh several episodes in a rowwith designated breaks in
between them.
Yeah.
I think it's unhighly unlikelythat we will be able to commit
to doing weekly podcastsforever.
But we could do thempotentially.
Yes, we could do thempotentially in some seasons.
(17:03):
Yeah.
Um, and so again, maybe that's abetter strategy.
Um I don't know.
I I don't know what it lookslike.
Help us decide.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Y'all are the listeners.
So um, I mean, this this podcastis very listener-driven in that
we are frequently just tacklinguh uh subjects uh from questions
that you all send us.
So let's let's together decidewhat makes for the best when it
comes to these episodes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Yeah, and and what kind of content is missing?
What kind of content um have wenot explored yet that you are
interested in covering?
Or maybe what do we need tocover again, perhaps in a
different um from a differentperspective or in a different
format.
Uh we'd love to hear from youabout what uh what what your
what is your vision for thepodcast?
Again, like Jen said, thispodcast is pretty meaningless
(17:52):
without listeners.
Um, and so uh we want to hearfrom you about that.
So we are very excited um forwhat we hope 2026 will hold for
Intimate Covenant and for uspersonally.
Uh, but for the rest of thisyear, Jen is gonna be stepping
away to take some time forhealing, which um she needs, and
(18:15):
I'll just say that I think shedeserves.
Um, and so she's gonna step awayfrom that uh for a little bit.
You'll hear from me uh for therest of the year, along with
well, you'll hear Jen's voiceand some of the QA uh responses,
uh, which we all look forwardto.
But um Jen will step away fromit for an intimate covenant in
general.
(18:35):
And so that means you're stuckwith me uh for whatever that's
worth.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
I like being stuck with you.
So thank you guys.
Thank you for your love, thankyou for your support.
Thanks for creating the spaceand the grace to allow me to
step away and spend some timehealing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Yeah, appreciate that.
Now, there is no segue to getinto the content, no good segue
uh to get into the content umfor this episode.
But we are finishing our serieson the historical philosophical
influences on our modernChristian view of sexuality.
(19:15):
And for some, it probably feelslike this series has moved at an
evolutionary pace.
See what I did there.
Um, but today we are finishingup this discussion by looking at
two of the most influential menin modern history.
The influences of Charles Darwinand Sigmund Freud on society are
not limited to just modernatheists.
(19:38):
The modern church and mostChristians, even you and me,
have unwittingly adopted some oftheir philosophy into our own
theology of sexuality.
And that's what we want to uhdiscuss today is the influences
of Charles Darwin, SigmundFreud, uh, and how that has
(19:58):
shaped the church's view and andreally most modern Christians'
view of sexuality uh and whatthat looks like in our own ideas
and our own behaviors uh as achurch.
So starting with Charles Darwin,Charles Darwin, of course, um
was uh lived in the late 1800s.
(20:18):
Well, I guess mid to late 1800sis when his uh most of his
influence came about.
He was a naturalist fromEngland, uh, and uh his work
fundamentally changed thescientific understanding of life
on Earth.
Uh he's obviously famous for histheory of biological evolution.
(20:39):
Um, and uh his work really laidthe foundation for modern
genetics, for ecology, forevolutionary science, profoundly
shaped uh scientific thought.
But his scientific work uhreally had its biggest influence
in modern philosophy, moderntheology, and even modern
(21:01):
culture in ways that we reallyprobably take for granted.
We could probably spend the restof this episode uh just talking
about Darwin's influence just onculture itself.
But we're gonna limit ourconversation uh to some extent
uh in talking about what hisideas uh have done to the shape
(21:23):
the modern view of sexuality,particularly from a Christian
standpoint.
But Darwin's theory of naturalselection paved the way for
modern society to reject God'sorder and to reject God's design
and to reject God's spiritualpurpose, to reject morality
based on any kind of theologicideas.
(21:46):
And so um what that all kind ofboils down to again from
specifically a sexual standpointis that Darwin convinced us that
our sexuality was the result ofmillions of years of random
genetic adaptations.
And as such, then, um, in in hisuh philosophy, is that we are at
(22:08):
the mercy of biology, and so weare no longer beholden to divine
moral instruction when it comesto um our sexual desires and our
sexual behaviors.
According to Darwin, ourbehaviors are driven by biology,
and so they are neither moralnor immoral.
So we just do what we areprogrammed to do.
(22:30):
Our uh biology dictates what wedo and how we behave.
And on the surface, Christiansought to reject his ideas
outright.
Obviously, any system whicheliminates a creator is by
nature diametrically opposed toChristianity and opposed to God
(22:51):
himself.
And yet we often treat people,especially men, as if their
sexuality is a biologicallyuncontrollable monster.
We teach them to fear sexualityrather than to view it as a
beautiful part of God'screation.
(23:11):
We have adopted a view of sexwhich separates biology from the
spiritual.
We believe Darwin's lie.
And as such, we have taken Godout of sexuality.
There are so many terribleconsequences to this.
Um when we uh when we believethe idea that sex is only about
(23:35):
the body, when we believe theidea that sex has nothing to do
with spirituality, that youcannot be sexual and spiritual
at the same time, when webelieve that, there are so many
terrible consequences.
But one consequence to this isthat our shame about sex has
given Satan the only voice ofinstruction that our kids
receive.
(23:57):
We have let the public educationsystem indoctrinate our kids
about evolution, and we havealso allowed the public
education system to indoctrinateour kids about sexuality.
And so they learn more fromtheir friends, they learn more
from internet pornography thanfrom the Bible about their
(24:17):
sexuality.
And let me just tell you thatthe church is way behind on
this.
Way behind.
We're already losing this battlewith our children and with uh
men in general.
We're losing this battle umamong the the uh young young
people as they grow up.
We've already lost this battlefor some.
(24:38):
And so we have to be more vocalabout this.
We have to be more vocal in thechurch about the God-given
beauty and the spiritual purposeof sexuality.
We've got to help peopleunderstand, we've got to like
crit help Christians understandthat sexuality is more than
about your body.
Sexuality is a God-givenspiritual uh endeavor, it is a
(25:04):
part of holiness.
And we'll talk more about thateven as we dig into um Sigmund
Freud's teachings.
But speaking of Sigmund Freud,um he uh came about uh a uh
maybe 50 years or so after uhDarwin.
He uh lived around the turn ofthe 1900s.
He was an Austrian neurologist,and he is the founder of
(25:28):
psychoanalysis.
Now, I don't need you to knowwhat psychoanalysis is.
I'm not sure that I knowentirely.
None of us are philosophers orpsychologists or scientists
here.
We're just you and me, we'rejust sharing these ideas.
But we do know that SigmundFreud developed this theory that
unconscious drives, that is, uhsexual instincts, aggressive
(25:51):
instincts, that these are whatshape behavior, these are what
shape personality, these arewhat shape uh uh crazy
behaviors, uh neuroses, or uhother behaviors that uh are
atypical.
Um but uh again his idea is thatit's these unconscious drives
(26:12):
that things like sexual drive,sexual um desire, uh
aggressiveness, those kinds ofthings are what shape uh what we
do.
Now, to be fair, his worktransformed psychiatry, it
transformed psychology.
And just like Darwin, Freud'sinfluence went way beyond the
(26:33):
realm of his study.
Uh Sigmund Freud's influences uhtransformed even art and
literature and philosophy andeven cultural ideas.
He really shifted, uh, he reallymoved the needle in terms of the
way that society understandsitself and the way that we
(26:55):
attempt to deal with problems insociety.
But he he shifted theunderstanding, really
fundamentally shifted thisunderstanding of human behavior
from moral explanations andreligious explanations toward
psychological uh explanations.
And so he really laid thisfoundation uh for psychotherapy
(27:16):
and really laid this foundationfor a new way of viewing this
inner self, the the psychologyof self.
So from uh specificallyspeaking, at least in terms of
sexuality, uh Freud taught thatsexuality is central to the
self.
It is central to um who I am,and it is the fundamental
(27:40):
driving thing that shapespersonality.
It's a fundamental uh drive thatshapes motivation, it's a
fundamental drive that shapesemotional life.
But sexuality is really centralto all of that.
And his ideas really laid thegroundwork for modern psychology
to extend this idea uh to thisidea that sexual identity is
(28:06):
what defines personal identity.
So, in other words, who you aresexually, they would say, is
fundamentally a part of who youare, and really a uh it really
is not just a part of, it is whoyou are.
That sexuality is who I amrather than simply what I do.
(28:27):
And you we see this played outum in in modern times, even
today, where uh folks reallygain so much of their identity
in who they are attracted tosexually.
So that's just where the thetrans movements come from.
This is where the LGBTQ plusmovements come from, that these
(28:48):
folks um are so motivated bythese ideas, they are so
motivated um by their sexualidentity uh because they feel
like their sexual identity istheir personal identity.
The problem is uh that uh thishas been adopted into even
(29:11):
Christianity, and and I wouldsay even in conservative
Christianity, uh, in that manyconservative Christians mirror
this philosophical shift bytreating sexuality as the most
important aspect of moralidentity.
Uh and this goes back all theway to the purity culture, and
(29:32):
you can go back and evenreference our um podcast
episodes on purity culture, butthis goes back to this idea that
purity is almost always definedby sexual activity.
Uh when we speak about purity inthe church, what we mean by that
is sexual purity, at least inmany cases, rather than viewing
(29:56):
purity as a holistic idea ofHoliness and sanctification of
the entire self, we really meanit in a sexual sense almost
exclusively.
And so um sexual sin becomes theultimate measure of a person's
holiness when we view it thatway.
It overshadows other virtueslike humility or justice or
(30:19):
mercy.
Again, this was really the partof the damage that was done in
the purity culture movement,although, again, probably well
intended, uh, sexual puritybegan to overshadow all of the
other ways in which we manifestrighteousness and holiness.
And so people with sexualstruggles, people that are in
(30:42):
bondage to pornography or peoplethat have same-sex attraction,
are often then defined primarilyby those struggles.
We talk about homosexuals, andum that's how we want to define
it, rather than helping folksunderstand that yes, sexuality
is a part of how I live outholiness, but it's certainly not
(31:04):
the only part.
It's not the only way that Ilive out holiness.
Um, the in in so doing, then,the sexual self becomes this
battleground of sanctification,as if sexuality is at the core
of one's relationship with God.
Now, obviously, we haven't takenFreud's ideas all the way, but
we have at least, on some sense,uh incorporated this idea that
(31:29):
sexuality is central, and itsimply is not.
Sexuality is a part of who weare, it is fundamental to who we
are, but the way that we liveout our sexuality is not, does
not define our relationship withGod entirely.
There are is so there are somany other ways in which we
ought to be grappling withholiness.
(31:51):
The Bible defines identity inour relationship with God.
And this is the contrast.
Our identity is not in oursexuality, our identity is in
our relationship with God.
We are image bearers of God,whose sexuality is a part of our
created humanity, but it is notits essence.
Again, it is our sexuality isnot the fundamental thing.
(32:18):
The word Christian, in fact,describes our identity as one
who follows and is united withJesus.
Our identity is not in ourheterosexuality or in our
maleness or our femalenessentirely.
More importantly, our identityis in Jesus and in united being
(32:40):
united with Him.
Sexuality is meaningful.
Sexuality is sacred, but it isnot ultimate.
Our holiness is in relationshipwith God.
Our holiness is not merely inour sexuality.
Freud also saw religion andsexuality in tension.
(33:03):
He saw them as opposites.
As Freud saw it, religionsuppresses sex.
And if sex is fundamental to whowe are, uh in his mind, religion
was oppressive to the expressionof self.
And liberation and living in uhthe tr a true sense in his mind
(33:24):
meant leaving behind the guiltthat religion um brought about.
So I don't think he wasnecessarily observing this
incorrectly entirely, becausereligion and uh relationship
with God should cause us to befeel guilt when we misuse our
(33:44):
sexuality.
But I would suggest that Freudprobably saw and understood a
poor version of religion, andthat is why he reacted with such
a bad idea about sex, and he wasreacting to, because he was
reacting to very bad sexualtheology.
(34:08):
That said, again, his ideasreally strongly emphasize this
dichotomy of spirituality andsexuality.
And that has been internalizedby modern secular thought as
well.
Those who dismiss God and thosewho dismiss religion and those
(34:30):
who dismiss relationship withGod see religion and sexual
expression as opposing forces.
And ironically, conservativeChristians also often reinforce
this false dichotomy, this falsedichotomy that sexuality and
spirituality are at odds witheach other.
(34:51):
Sexual desire is often treatedas dangerous or sinful, or it's
pure and holy, dependingentirely and almost exclusively
on your marital status.
There is no acknowledgement inthis conversation of the
intended spiritual purpose ofsexuality and sexual desire for
(35:11):
single folks.
There's no room in theseconversations at times for
singles to investigate or tounderstand this divine purpose
for their God-given sexualdesire.
The only room in conversationfor the sexual desire of a
single person is simply torepress it or to get married.
(35:34):
That's the only options that aregiven to those.
There is no conversation abouthow God intends for me to
understand my sexuality as asingle person.
And many Christians feeldiscomfort, whether you're
married or not.
We feel uncomfortableintegrating our spirituality and
(35:55):
our sexuality.
We have a hard time believingthat holiness and physical
pleasure are not somehow atodds.
We have a very difficult timebelieving that we are allowed to
feel physical pleasure, sexualpleasure, and also be
spiritually holy at the sametime.
(36:17):
And again, those ideas don'tcome from Freud entirely.
Those ideas, unfortunately, um,like we've talked about in the
last two episodes, those twoideas come from historically bad
theology and started even beforeChrist.
But um here we are.
And uh Freud's ideas reallyre-emphasized that tension
(36:40):
between spirituality andsexuality in modern thought, and
um that has all the morere-emphasized that in modern
Christianity.
Scripture, though, presents nosuch divide.
God created sexual pleasure andhe called it very good.
When he created all of us withall of our parts, and he created
(37:04):
that potential for sexualpleasure, he called it very
good.
And in fact, it you don't haveto read very far in the Bible.
You can simply look at thecomplex and incredibly beautiful
design of even the human body.
And you realize that thebiologic design of the human
body reveals God's intention forsexual pleasure.
(37:27):
He created body parts for whichthere is no other purpose than
sexual pleasure.
The Song of Songs and evensections of the Proverbs
celebrate erotic love withoutshame as long as that
celebration is happening withinthe context of covenant
(37:48):
marriage.
Um, biblical sexuality isintegrated into who we are as
people.
It is not compartmentalized.
It is not set, it is not setaside.
Sexuality is not something thatyou just hide under your bed and
pull it out when God's notlooking.
Biblical sexuality is notsomething that is separate from
(38:09):
a spiritual walk with God.
Biblical sexuality is integratedinto who we are as human beings.
Sexuality is integrated into ourwalk with God and in reflecting
his image.
We are made in his image and weare also made male and female.
That those statements are madein the same breath, in the same
(38:32):
sentence in Genesis chapter one,that we are made in his image
and that we are made male andfemale.
And so our sexuality is intendedto be something that is
celebrated, something that islived out and can be and should
be lived out in a way thatglorifies God in his image.
Sexuality, just like every otheraspect of our physical human
(38:54):
existence, must be handled in away, though, that reflects God's
glory and brings him praise.
We cannot glorify God with oursexuality, though, if we are
covering it in shame.
We cannot glorify God with oursexuality if we are attempting
to repress our desires.
(39:14):
We cannot glorify God if we areignoring teaching about God's
beautiful design and hisbeautiful plan for our sexual
desire.
We cannot glorify God if werefuse to talk about the sexual
pleasure and the goodness ofcovenant love in the covenant of
marriage.
(39:37):
Sexuality and spirituality arenot opposed to each other.
And that is in opposition, andtruly in opposition to Darwin.
If we want to if we want toteach our kids about the
falsehood of Darwinism, that hasto be part of the conversation.
If we want to truly rejectFreudian psychology, that has to
(40:01):
be part of the conversation.
Darwin and Freud both rejected adivine order of the universe.
They both rejected a spiritualguide for moral and ethical
living.
And their influences,unfortunately, profoundly shaped
the course of modern philosophyand our own current society.
(40:22):
And unfortunately, also, manymodern Christians have
unwittingly adopted theseinfluences from Darwin and Freud
into their own sexual theology.
They have adopted Freudian andDarwinian ideas into how we are
approaching sexuality and sexualdesire, and we must reject the
(40:45):
idea that sex is purelybiological.
We must reject the idea that sexis in contrast to spirituality.
The Bible teaches that sexualityis created by God with spiritual
significance and purpose andimportance.
(41:06):
And so that's the episoderejecting Darwinian and Freudian
sexual psychology and philosophyand rejecting it even as it has
infiltrated our own modernChristian and biblical belief
systems.
So uh I would love to hear yourfeedback.
(41:27):
Contact us by emailing thepodcast.
Uh, you can email us at podcastat intimatecovenant.com, or you
can submit anonymous feedbackand questions.
Go to intimatecovenant.com slashpodcast, and you can click a
button there that will allow youto submit an anonymous
submission form.
Thank you to all of you asalways for listening.
(41:48):
Thank you for subscribing.
Thank you for sharing thepodcast.
We are truly, truly humbled byall of your encouragement, by
your support.
And we thank you especially uhto our Patreon subscribers for
coming along us in a very realway.
If Intimate Covenant has blessedyour marriage, we would love to
have you join us over on Patreonas well.
You can subscribe at patreon.comslash intimate covenant.
(42:12):
Till next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
Hey Jen, want to talk about Darwinian evolution?
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Uh, I'd rather just sail to a remote island and
watch birds.
Great.
SPEAKER_01 (00:06):
Today on the podcast, we're talking about the
influences of Charles Darwin andSigmund Freud on modern
Christian views of sexuality.
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
Welcome.
We're Matt and Jen, and this isthe Intimate Covenant Podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
Where we believe the Bible and great married sex both
belong on your kitchen table.
That's right.
We are talking about godlymarriage and hot sex and
emotionally fulfilling oneness,and we are so grateful that
you've joined us.
SPEAKER_00 (00:38):
Yeah, thanks for coming along with us.
If you'd like to find out moreabout us, you can do so by going
to our website,intimatecovenant.com.
And we would always love to hearfrom you.
Feel free to email us at podcastat intimatecovenant.com.
SPEAKER_01 (00:52):
If you're new to the show, uh we again are Matt and
Jen.
We have been married for almost30 years.
Ooh, that sounds old.
Uh yes, uh maybe, maybe, maybetoo old.
Um, but uh our passion issharing God's plan for beautiful
and holy sexuality, uh,especially within the marriage
(01:12):
covenant.
And you have found the IntimateCovenant podcast where we
discuss God's plan for marriageand specifically we focus a
little bit on the sexual side ofmarriage, um, because a podcast
is a great place to do that,where I'm not looking in your
eyes, you're not looking in myeyes.
(01:33):
That's true.
Uh, but we can have someconversations here that we just
probably wouldn't otherwisehave.
SPEAKER_00 (01:38):
And if you haven't picked up on it as of yet, this
is a podcast intended formarried people.
Yep.
If you're not in the covenant ofmarriage, thanks for being
interested, but maybe pause andcome back when you are a married
person.
SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
There you go.
Uh, and we do have some uhmaterial that is appropriate for
singles, so feel free to emailus and we'd be happy to point
you in that direction.
SPEAKER_00 (02:00):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (02:01):
So today on the podcast, we are talking about
Charles Darwin, Sigmund Freud,and the modern church's approach
to sexuality.
SPEAKER_00 (02:11):
Oh boy, that's gonna be a great episode, honey.
SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
That is a strange trio, admittedly.
Uh, but I promise we're gonnapull all of that together in
just a minute.
But first, uh, we did want toprovide you with uh maybe a
personal update, we'll call it,uh, a life update.
We probably owe you at leastsome explanation.
If you're a regular listener,you know, uh, or you I well, I
(02:36):
hope that you've noticed uh ourabsence um yet again.
Uh this has been uh achallenging year and what was
intended to be a monthlypodcast.
Um I think a little rough thisyear.
Yeah, I think Jen uh realizedthat to this to date, we have
put out uh now six episodes.
(02:58):
I think um and we should be muchfurther along than that.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
Well, yeah, given that it this is day one of the
11th month of the year, um, wedid have some incredibly joyful
um changes in our family thisyear.
Our youngest daughter graduatedhigh school um and started, um
we moved her off to college inAugust, which any of you out
(03:22):
there who are walking the roadof like last one leaving the
nest, you know that that is aplace of incredible excitement
and joy, and also some somelittle bit more bittersweet um
feelings that go along withthat.
Um, the exact same week that ourdaughter moved into college in
Florida, earlier that week, ourson got married in California.
(03:45):
Um, we literally went coast tocoast in one week with some
amazing, wonderful things.
Um, and we have now a beautifuldaughter in love that we are
just over the moon in excitementand enjoyment of her.
Um, so both of those things werehuge and wonderful changes in
our family that we're obviouslyadjusting to.
(04:07):
Um, but it's also been atremendously difficult year.
SPEAKER_01 (04:11):
Yeah, on a number of levels.
Uh well, we started out the yearlast year uh with this year.
Yeah, within a few days.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
It looks like it's been way more than a year.
Goodness.
Yes.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
With it within a few days of the new year, uh, Jen
had emergency surgery and washospitalized for a short period
of time and had a pretty longand difficult um physical
recovery um following thatsurgery.
SPEAKER_00 (04:33):
Yeah.
So you you didn't really hearfrom us the month of January,
February, thanks to that.
Um and right when we thought wewere gonna get our feet
underneath us in the month ofMarch, uh more troubles came our
way.
SPEAKER_01 (04:45):
Yeah.
Um we we faced some uhcriticism, some uh opposition.
Um I I think is maybe putting itprobably mildly, but we've we
faced some of that um frominternally within uh some some
of those whom we uh worshipwith.
(05:05):
And so we we've we just had somedifficulty in uh navigating that
and some difficulties thatreally lasted for several months
um in creating quite a bit ofturmoil in our own personal
lives and and uh uh with with alots lots of those whom we love
as well.
SPEAKER_00 (05:23):
Yeah, this podcast kind of came under some scrutiny
and and then um sadly someattacks.
Um, those that um just didn'trecognize the point of the
podcast, the um the intendedaudience of the podcast, and and
frankly, um have questionedwhether or not a podcast like
this um is is biblical, issomething that Christians ought
(05:49):
to be doing.
Um and so we have spent we'vespent the year trying to, we
spent the year soul searching,obviously, um and trying to
defend our work.
Um, and it's it has been reallyhard.
Um and then um just severalweeks after moving our daughter
(06:09):
into college and our son gettingmarried, my dad passed away.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Yeah, in the beginning of September.
And so that has just added tothe difficulty that that we have
faced.
Um and again, um not that Iguess we owe anybody an
explanation, but we do feel likewe want to explain to you um
where we've been, what's beengoing on, and and why there's
(06:36):
been such a a lack of podcastepisodes this year.
That's just more of that thathas contributed.
SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
I mean, we we always say, you know, something about
y'all being our friends, andthat's because that's true.
That's not just you know a aname we're throwing out there.
Um we do feel like, you know, somany of you have become our
friends, and um and because ofthat, we want to share with you
both our joys and ourchallenges.
(07:04):
Um, I had an amazing daddy and Imiss him every single day.
And I'm navigating what it is tolive without my daddy here.
Um and that's hard.
If you've lost a parent, youknow how very difficult that is.
Um so it's been a hard year.
(07:26):
It's been a really hard year.
Um, despite these challenges, wehad were able to still pull off,
by the grace of God, pull offour marriage retreat, which
happened just two weeks after mydad's funeral.
Um, we we had a wonderfulretreat, um, mostly to the
(07:47):
credit of Matt, who uh bore thelion's share work, um, pulling
it off this year.
Um, but also because of thegrace and just amazingness of
the couples that were able tojoin us.
And and even though it was umobviously a very, very difficult
time for me, it was so healingum to be surrounded by all of
(08:11):
those couples that were, youknow, there together to work on
their marriages, um, and justthe hugs um and the the support
meant a lot to me.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
Yeah, we we did have a good attendance and so many
great people.
Uh so uh I'll just put that outthere as a plug.
I mean, you if you are notjoining us at the retreat, um,
you're really missing something.
And this year was it's powerful.
It's clearly no exception.
It was a powerful gathering andum really a testament to the the
(08:45):
good work that God uh is doingin all of you and uh the fact
that so many of you were able tobe such a blessing to us as well
in that time.
It was great.
We had very good conversations.
The material, some folks told usit was their favorite yet.
So I'm not sure how that couldbe because uh I'm not even sure
(09:05):
I was entirely mentally presentfor for the weekend, but um it
it was uh good conversations,and we are doing it again next
year.
We are um stay tuned for theexact dates.
We know that it will be in lateSeptember, um, as usual.
And as usual, of also uhregistration for next year will
(09:26):
open on February 14th.
SPEAKER_00 (09:28):
That's right.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
Just a coincidental date.
SPEAKER_00 (09:31):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (09:32):
Um, I I think it's probably worth at this point
also just acknowledging andexpressing our gratitude for so
many of you, not just those ofyou at the retreat, but so many
of you who have noticed our uminconsistent uh presence on the
podcast and have reached out umand just expressed your um
(09:58):
condolences for those who knewof Jen's dad's passing, uh your
uh expressions of sympathy andoverwhelming support and love
for those of you who uh arefamiliar with some of the
difficulties that we've beenfacing um throughout the year.
Uh it it has been I I tellpeople all the time, we have
(10:19):
literally been overwhelmed withlove and support uh and just an
outpouring of um well wishes andprayers and thoughtful gifts and
cards and emails and textmessages.
It's just been overwhelming, andwe are so blessed to have so
many good people in our lives.
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
And and quite honestly, that has been
life-giving in a year that hasbeen so full of difficulties to
open up our emails and seesomeone who is essentially a
stranger to us, you know, sharewith us their story, the the the
way that this podcast hasimpacted them or our work.
(11:03):
Um, that is uh I don't I don'teven have the words for what
that is, other than life givingto to read those.
And so thank you all so much forsharing um with us in the the
trials of this year, but alsobeing there to hold our arms up
and be willing to to stand withus in a very, very difficult
(11:27):
year.
SPEAKER_01 (11:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and speaking of um strangersbecoming friends, yeah, uh in in
uh just a few weeks ago inOctober, uh we went to
Bloomington, Illinois.
Uh we met lots of new friends.
SPEAKER_00 (11:43):
Yeah, we had a marriage uh day there.
That one had been like on thebooks for quite a while.
SPEAKER_01 (11:50):
And I think we started planning this one like
three years ago, it feels likeyeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
And given the events of the year, it was obviously
very uh tempting to just bowout, and yet we chose not to.
Yeah.
So glad to.
And again, so so thankfulbecause it was also life-giving.
It was so good.
Um, you know, hopefully uh someof our new friends are listening
and we just want you to knowthat whatever you got out of
(12:15):
that, out of that weekend, wegot more.
Um, it was it was a very neededweekend for us as well.
SPEAKER_01 (12:22):
God God's timing there um was was apparent.
Uh we were we were very muchencouraged by that weekend.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
And it helped us remember the joy in this work
that we do and the joy it is tobe surrounded by other couples
who also are desiring to havenot just a good marriage, but a
great marriage.
And being willing to put in thatwork.
Um, there is something sopowerful that happens when you
(12:51):
get a room full of those kind ofcouples together.
SPEAKER_01 (12:54):
Unquestionably.
Yes, it is it's palpable.
Uh, and so because of the joythat it is to be with you in
your own communities, we want tomake a special offer.
Never, never before have we madean offer like this, uh, but we
are just so motivated.
We have decided that for thenext three groups that book a
(13:17):
date with us for 2026, that is adate for us to come and to uh
share God's plan for marriage inyour community, for the next
three groups who book with us,we are going to waive our
speaking fees.
SPEAKER_00 (13:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
Meaning, if you can get us there by taking care of
our travel and our lodging uhand whatever uh you know costs
uh uh that are uh that occur inputting on a uh a day like that,
if you can get us there, we willbe there.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Right.
And and we will be there nomatter the size of your group.
If you want to plan for 10couples to meet in your living
room, great.
If you can get a communitycenter and fill it with 50
couples, great.
You plan it, we will come.
Um, again, because it is such asource of joy for us.
(14:12):
And um and and we just love it.
We love getting to meet you.
We love getting to make newfriends, and we love getting to
share God's beautiful plan forintimate marriages with you in a
personable, one-on-one kind ofway that the marriage day
provides.
SPEAKER_01 (14:29):
Yeah.
So reach out to us.
Let's figure out how we can makethat happen.
Uh, we want to do that with youand for you in your community.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
And you might be wondering so, what's happening
with the podcast?
Again, we've only put out ahandful of episodes this year.
Um, but we want to assure you umthat we we want to continue this
podcast.
Um, we believe in the power ofthis podcast.
We hear your stories.
(14:58):
Um, we know that the the gloryis not ours, it's God's.
Yes.
And we recognize what he doeswith this podcast.
And so if he wants us to keepserving in this way, we want to
assure you that it is firmly ourour plans to continue to do that
if he puts this work before us.
(15:20):
Um for the rest of the year,though, we've decided kind of
the easiest thing for us isgoing to put out, be to put out
a couple of QA episodes.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
Yeah.
Obviously the holidays are abusy time for you and us.
Um, and we're looking forward tosome good times over the next
couple of months to maybe shiftthe uh tone of the the last uh
little bit of the year.
But we we uh are gonna put out acouple of QA episodes before the
new year.
That is the plan.
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Some content from our retreat and from our most
recent marriage day.
SPEAKER_01 (15:53):
And then 2026 is to be determined.
Now, what is not to bedetermined is whether we're
going to keep doing it.
Okay, to be clear, like Jensaid.
But we are considering someformat changes, um, maybe a
little bit different ways to dothis, a different approach.
And we are looking for yourfeedback along those lines.
So um, if you are of an opinion,we would love to have it.
(16:17):
So, what we want to know fromyou is is a monthly podcast
enough?
Is it not enough?
Do we need to be doing this morefrequently along those lines?
Are you more interested in morefrequent but shorter episodes
versus the longer format that wehave done traditionally?
Um, another option that's beenthrown around is perhaps doing
(16:41):
weekly episodes in bursts, likedoing a season of you know, many
uh several episodes in a rowwith designated breaks in
between them.
Yeah.
I think it's unhighly unlikelythat we will be able to commit
to doing weekly podcastsforever.
But we could do thempotentially.
Yes, we could do thempotentially in some seasons.
(17:03):
Yeah.
Um, and so again, maybe that's abetter strategy.
Um I don't know.
I I don't know what it lookslike.
Help us decide.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Y'all are the listeners.
So um, I mean, this this podcastis very listener-driven in that
we are frequently just tacklinguh uh subjects uh from questions
that you all send us.
So let's let's together decidewhat makes for the best when it
comes to these episodes.
SPEAKER_01 (17:29):
Yeah, and and what kind of content is missing?
What kind of content um have wenot explored yet that you are
interested in covering?
Or maybe what do we need tocover again, perhaps in a
different um from a differentperspective or in a different
format.
Uh we'd love to hear from youabout what uh what what your
what is your vision for thepodcast?
Again, like Jen said, thispodcast is pretty meaningless
(17:52):
without listeners.
Um, and so uh we want to hearfrom you about that.
So we are very excited um forwhat we hope 2026 will hold for
Intimate Covenant and for uspersonally.
Uh, but for the rest of thisyear, Jen is gonna be stepping
away to take some time forhealing, which um she needs, and
(18:15):
I'll just say that I think shedeserves.
Um, and so she's gonna step awayfrom that uh for a little bit.
You'll hear from me uh for therest of the year, along with
well, you'll hear Jen's voiceand some of the QA uh responses,
uh, which we all look forwardto.
But um Jen will step away fromit for an intimate covenant in
general.
(18:35):
And so that means you're stuckwith me uh for whatever that's
worth.
SPEAKER_00 (18:40):
I like being stuck with you.
So thank you guys.
Thank you for your love, thankyou for your support.
Thanks for creating the spaceand the grace to allow me to
step away and spend some timehealing.
SPEAKER_01 (18:53):
Yeah, appreciate that.
Now, there is no segue to getinto the content, no good segue
uh to get into the content umfor this episode.
But we are finishing our serieson the historical philosophical
influences on our modernChristian view of sexuality.
(19:15):
And for some, it probably feelslike this series has moved at an
evolutionary pace.
See what I did there.
Um, but today we are finishingup this discussion by looking at
two of the most influential menin modern history.
The influences of Charles Darwinand Sigmund Freud on society are
not limited to just modernatheists.
(19:38):
The modern church and mostChristians, even you and me,
have unwittingly adopted some oftheir philosophy into our own
theology of sexuality.
And that's what we want to uhdiscuss today is the influences
of Charles Darwin, SigmundFreud, uh, and how that has
(19:58):
shaped the church's view and andreally most modern Christians'
view of sexuality uh and whatthat looks like in our own ideas
and our own behaviors uh as achurch.
So starting with Charles Darwin,Charles Darwin, of course, um
was uh lived in the late 1800s.
(20:18):
Well, I guess mid to late 1800sis when his uh most of his
influence came about.
He was a naturalist fromEngland, uh, and uh his work
fundamentally changed thescientific understanding of life
on Earth.
Uh he's obviously famous for histheory of biological evolution.
(20:39):
Um, and uh his work really laidthe foundation for modern
genetics, for ecology, forevolutionary science, profoundly
shaped uh scientific thought.
But his scientific work uhreally had its biggest influence
in modern philosophy, moderntheology, and even modern
(21:01):
culture in ways that we reallyprobably take for granted.
We could probably spend the restof this episode uh just talking
about Darwin's influence just onculture itself.
But we're gonna limit ourconversation uh to some extent
uh in talking about what hisideas uh have done to the shape
(21:23):
the modern view of sexuality,particularly from a Christian
standpoint.
But Darwin's theory of naturalselection paved the way for
modern society to reject God'sorder and to reject God's design
and to reject God's spiritualpurpose, to reject morality
based on any kind of theologicideas.
(21:46):
And so um what that all kind ofboils down to again from
specifically a sexual standpointis that Darwin convinced us that
our sexuality was the result ofmillions of years of random
genetic adaptations.
And as such, then, um, in in hisuh philosophy, is that we are at
(22:08):
the mercy of biology, and so weare no longer beholden to divine
moral instruction when it comesto um our sexual desires and our
sexual behaviors.
According to Darwin, ourbehaviors are driven by biology,
and so they are neither moralnor immoral.
So we just do what we areprogrammed to do.
(22:30):
Our uh biology dictates what wedo and how we behave.
And on the surface, Christiansought to reject his ideas
outright.
Obviously, any system whicheliminates a creator is by
nature diametrically opposed toChristianity and opposed to God
(22:51):
himself.
And yet we often treat people,especially men, as if their
sexuality is a biologicallyuncontrollable monster.
We teach them to fear sexualityrather than to view it as a
beautiful part of God'screation.
(23:11):
We have adopted a view of sexwhich separates biology from the
spiritual.
We believe Darwin's lie.
And as such, we have taken Godout of sexuality.
There are so many terribleconsequences to this.
Um when we uh when we believethe idea that sex is only about
(23:35):
the body, when we believe theidea that sex has nothing to do
with spirituality, that youcannot be sexual and spiritual
at the same time, when webelieve that, there are so many
terrible consequences.
But one consequence to this isthat our shame about sex has
given Satan the only voice ofinstruction that our kids
receive.
(23:57):
We have let the public educationsystem indoctrinate our kids
about evolution, and we havealso allowed the public
education system to indoctrinateour kids about sexuality.
And so they learn more fromtheir friends, they learn more
from internet pornography thanfrom the Bible about their
(24:17):
sexuality.
And let me just tell you thatthe church is way behind on
this.
Way behind.
We're already losing this battlewith our children and with uh
men in general.
We're losing this battle umamong the the uh young young
people as they grow up.
We've already lost this battlefor some.
(24:38):
And so we have to be more vocalabout this.
We have to be more vocal in thechurch about the God-given
beauty and the spiritual purposeof sexuality.
We've got to help peopleunderstand, we've got to like
crit help Christians understandthat sexuality is more than
about your body.
Sexuality is a God-givenspiritual uh endeavor, it is a
(25:04):
part of holiness.
And we'll talk more about thateven as we dig into um Sigmund
Freud's teachings.
But speaking of Sigmund Freud,um he uh came about uh a uh
maybe 50 years or so after uhDarwin.
He uh lived around the turn ofthe 1900s.
He was an Austrian neurologist,and he is the founder of
(25:28):
psychoanalysis.
Now, I don't need you to knowwhat psychoanalysis is.
I'm not sure that I knowentirely.
None of us are philosophers orpsychologists or scientists
here.
We're just you and me, we'rejust sharing these ideas.
But we do know that SigmundFreud developed this theory that
unconscious drives, that is, uhsexual instincts, aggressive
(25:51):
instincts, that these are whatshape behavior, these are what
shape personality, these arewhat shape uh uh crazy
behaviors, uh neuroses, or uhother behaviors that uh are
atypical.
Um but uh again his idea is thatit's these unconscious drives
(26:12):
that things like sexual drive,sexual um desire, uh
aggressiveness, those kinds ofthings are what shape uh what we
do.
Now, to be fair, his worktransformed psychiatry, it
transformed psychology.
And just like Darwin, Freud'sinfluence went way beyond the
(26:33):
realm of his study.
Uh Sigmund Freud's influences uhtransformed even art and
literature and philosophy andeven cultural ideas.
He really shifted, uh, he reallymoved the needle in terms of the
way that society understandsitself and the way that we
(26:55):
attempt to deal with problems insociety.
But he he shifted theunderstanding, really
fundamentally shifted thisunderstanding of human behavior
from moral explanations andreligious explanations toward
psychological uh explanations.
And so he really laid thisfoundation uh for psychotherapy
(27:16):
and really laid this foundationfor a new way of viewing this
inner self, the the psychologyof self.
So from uh specificallyspeaking, at least in terms of
sexuality, uh Freud taught thatsexuality is central to the
self.
It is central to um who I am,and it is the fundamental
(27:40):
driving thing that shapespersonality.
It's a fundamental uh drive thatshapes motivation, it's a
fundamental drive that shapesemotional life.
But sexuality is really centralto all of that.
And his ideas really laid thegroundwork for modern psychology
to extend this idea uh to thisidea that sexual identity is
(28:06):
what defines personal identity.
So, in other words, who you aresexually, they would say, is
fundamentally a part of who youare, and really a uh it really
is not just a part of, it is whoyou are.
That sexuality is who I amrather than simply what I do.
(28:27):
And you we see this played outum in in modern times, even
today, where uh folks reallygain so much of their identity
in who they are attracted tosexually.
So that's just where the thetrans movements come from.
This is where the LGBTQ plusmovements come from, that these
(28:48):
folks um are so motivated bythese ideas, they are so
motivated um by their sexualidentity uh because they feel
like their sexual identity istheir personal identity.
The problem is uh that uh thishas been adopted into even
(29:11):
Christianity, and and I wouldsay even in conservative
Christianity, uh, in that manyconservative Christians mirror
this philosophical shift bytreating sexuality as the most
important aspect of moralidentity.
Uh and this goes back all theway to the purity culture, and
(29:32):
you can go back and evenreference our um podcast
episodes on purity culture, butthis goes back to this idea that
purity is almost always definedby sexual activity.
Uh when we speak about purity inthe church, what we mean by that
is sexual purity, at least inmany cases, rather than viewing
(29:56):
purity as a holistic idea ofHoliness and sanctification of
the entire self, we really meanit in a sexual sense almost
exclusively.
And so um sexual sin becomes theultimate measure of a person's
holiness when we view it thatway.
It overshadows other virtueslike humility or justice or
(30:19):
mercy.
Again, this was really the partof the damage that was done in
the purity culture movement,although, again, probably well
intended, uh, sexual puritybegan to overshadow all of the
other ways in which we manifestrighteousness and holiness.
And so people with sexualstruggles, people that are in
(30:42):
bondage to pornography or peoplethat have same-sex attraction,
are often then defined primarilyby those struggles.
We talk about homosexuals, andum that's how we want to define
it, rather than helping folksunderstand that yes, sexuality
is a part of how I live outholiness, but it's certainly not
(31:04):
the only part.
It's not the only way that Ilive out holiness.
Um, the in in so doing, then,the sexual self becomes this
battleground of sanctification,as if sexuality is at the core
of one's relationship with God.
Now, obviously, we haven't takenFreud's ideas all the way, but
we have at least, on some sense,uh incorporated this idea that
(31:29):
sexuality is central, and itsimply is not.
Sexuality is a part of who weare, it is fundamental to who we
are, but the way that we liveout our sexuality is not, does
not define our relationship withGod entirely.
There are is so there are somany other ways in which we
ought to be grappling withholiness.
(31:51):
The Bible defines identity inour relationship with God.
And this is the contrast.
Our identity is not in oursexuality, our identity is in
our relationship with God.
We are image bearers of God,whose sexuality is a part of our
created humanity, but it is notits essence.
Again, it is our sexuality isnot the fundamental thing.
(32:18):
The word Christian, in fact,describes our identity as one
who follows and is united withJesus.
Our identity is not in ourheterosexuality or in our
maleness or our femalenessentirely.
More importantly, our identityis in Jesus and in united being
(32:40):
united with Him.
Sexuality is meaningful.
Sexuality is sacred, but it isnot ultimate.
Our holiness is in relationshipwith God.
Our holiness is not merely inour sexuality.
Freud also saw religion andsexuality in tension.
(33:03):
He saw them as opposites.
As Freud saw it, religionsuppresses sex.
And if sex is fundamental to whowe are, uh in his mind, religion
was oppressive to the expressionof self.
And liberation and living in uhthe tr a true sense in his mind
(33:24):
meant leaving behind the guiltthat religion um brought about.
So I don't think he wasnecessarily observing this
incorrectly entirely, becausereligion and uh relationship
with God should cause us to befeel guilt when we misuse our
(33:44):
sexuality.
But I would suggest that Freudprobably saw and understood a
poor version of religion, andthat is why he reacted with such
a bad idea about sex, and he wasreacting to, because he was
reacting to very bad sexualtheology.
(34:08):
That said, again, his ideasreally strongly emphasize this
dichotomy of spirituality andsexuality.
And that has been internalizedby modern secular thought as
well.
Those who dismiss God and thosewho dismiss religion and those
(34:30):
who dismiss relationship withGod see religion and sexual
expression as opposing forces.
And ironically, conservativeChristians also often reinforce
this false dichotomy, this falsedichotomy that sexuality and
spirituality are at odds witheach other.
(34:51):
Sexual desire is often treatedas dangerous or sinful, or it's
pure and holy, dependingentirely and almost exclusively
on your marital status.
There is no acknowledgement inthis conversation of the
intended spiritual purpose ofsexuality and sexual desire for
(35:11):
single folks.
There's no room in theseconversations at times for
singles to investigate or tounderstand this divine purpose
for their God-given sexualdesire.
The only room in conversationfor the sexual desire of a
single person is simply torepress it or to get married.
(35:34):
That's the only options that aregiven to those.
There is no conversation abouthow God intends for me to
understand my sexuality as asingle person.
And many Christians feeldiscomfort, whether you're
married or not.
We feel uncomfortableintegrating our spirituality and
(35:55):
our sexuality.
We have a hard time believingthat holiness and physical
pleasure are not somehow atodds.
We have a very difficult timebelieving that we are allowed to
feel physical pleasure, sexualpleasure, and also be
spiritually holy at the sametime.
(36:17):
And again, those ideas don'tcome from Freud entirely.
Those ideas, unfortunately, um,like we've talked about in the
last two episodes, those twoideas come from historically bad
theology and started even beforeChrist.
But um here we are.
And uh Freud's ideas reallyre-emphasized that tension
(36:40):
between spirituality andsexuality in modern thought, and
um that has all the morere-emphasized that in modern
Christianity.
Scripture, though, presents nosuch divide.
God created sexual pleasure andhe called it very good.
When he created all of us withall of our parts, and he created
(37:04):
that potential for sexualpleasure, he called it very
good.
And in fact, it you don't haveto read very far in the Bible.
You can simply look at thecomplex and incredibly beautiful
design of even the human body.
And you realize that thebiologic design of the human
body reveals God's intention forsexual pleasure.
(37:27):
He created body parts for whichthere is no other purpose than
sexual pleasure.
The Song of Songs and evensections of the Proverbs
celebrate erotic love withoutshame as long as that
celebration is happening withinthe context of covenant
(37:48):
marriage.
Um, biblical sexuality isintegrated into who we are as
people.
It is not compartmentalized.
It is not set, it is not setaside.
Sexuality is not something thatyou just hide under your bed and
pull it out when God's notlooking.
Biblical sexuality is notsomething that is separate from
(38:09):
a spiritual walk with God.
Biblical sexuality is integratedinto who we are as human beings.
Sexuality is integrated into ourwalk with God and in reflecting
his image.
We are made in his image and weare also made male and female.
That those statements are madein the same breath, in the same
(38:32):
sentence in Genesis chapter one,that we are made in his image
and that we are made male andfemale.
And so our sexuality is intendedto be something that is
celebrated, something that islived out and can be and should
be lived out in a way thatglorifies God in his image.
Sexuality, just like every otheraspect of our physical human
(38:54):
existence, must be handled in away, though, that reflects God's
glory and brings him praise.
We cannot glorify God with oursexuality, though, if we are
covering it in shame.
We cannot glorify God with oursexuality if we are attempting
to repress our desires.
(39:14):
We cannot glorify God if we areignoring teaching about God's
beautiful design and hisbeautiful plan for our sexual
desire.
We cannot glorify God if werefuse to talk about the sexual
pleasure and the goodness ofcovenant love in the covenant of
marriage.
(39:37):
Sexuality and spirituality arenot opposed to each other.
And that is in opposition, andtruly in opposition to Darwin.
If we want to if we want toteach our kids about the
falsehood of Darwinism, that hasto be part of the conversation.
If we want to truly rejectFreudian psychology, that has to
(40:01):
be part of the conversation.
Darwin and Freud both rejected adivine order of the universe.
They both rejected a spiritualguide for moral and ethical
living.
And their influences,unfortunately, profoundly shaped
the course of modern philosophyand our own current society.
(40:22):
And unfortunately, also, manymodern Christians have
unwittingly adopted theseinfluences from Darwin and Freud
into their own sexual theology.
They have adopted Freudian andDarwinian ideas into how we are
approaching sexuality and sexualdesire, and we must reject the
(40:45):
idea that sex is purelybiological.
We must reject the idea that sexis in contrast to spirituality.
The Bible teaches that sexualityis created by God with spiritual
significance and purpose andimportance.
(41:06):
And so that's the episoderejecting Darwinian and Freudian
sexual psychology and philosophyand rejecting it even as it has
infiltrated our own modernChristian and biblical belief
systems.
So uh I would love to hear yourfeedback.
(41:27):
Contact us by emailing thepodcast.
Uh, you can email us at podcastat intimatecovenant.com, or you
can submit anonymous feedbackand questions.
Go to intimatecovenant.com slashpodcast, and you can click a
button there that will allow youto submit an anonymous
submission form.
Thank you to all of you asalways for listening.
(41:48):
Thank you for subscribing.
Thank you for sharing thepodcast.
We are truly, truly humbled byall of your encouragement, by
your support.
And we thank you especially uhto our Patreon subscribers for
coming along us in a very realway.
If Intimate Covenant has blessedyour marriage, we would love to
have you join us over on Patreonas well.
You can subscribe at patreon.comslash intimate covenant.
(42:12):
Till next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
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