May 19, 2025 • 44 mins
Warning: We cover necessary and important topics about the marriage relationship and sex. We use frank language without being crude or crass. Our approach is biblical and wholesome, but not intended for singles — especially not for children.
Difficult conversations are at the heart of successful marriages, yet many struggle with vulnerability and emotional expression. We explore practical ways to share feelings authentically and address how to reveal past mistakes you've been hiding.
- Sharing your feelings can be a difficult conversation for some. This is a skill which may require intentional practice.
- Vulnerability is the heart of intimate relationships. Revealing the fullness of yourself is the only way to be loved for who you really are.
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Cherishing,
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, jen wanna talk about difficult conversations.
Every conversation with youbehind the microphone is
difficult, Great today on thepodcast, we're talking about
having challenging conversations, like sharing difficult
feelings or sharing a pastyou're not proud of.
Is there a way to make thiseasier?
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're Matt and Jen, and this is the Intimate
Covenant Podcast, where webelieve the Bible and great
marriage.
Sex both belong on the kitchentable.
That's right.
We are talking about godlymarriage.
We're talking about hot sex andwe are talking about
emotionally fulfilling onenessin your marriage.
We're so grateful you're withus.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
That's right, and if you would like to learn more
about us, you can do so by goingto our website,
intimatecovenantcom, and wewould always love to hear from
you.
You can send us an email atpodcast at IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And, like many episodes, we're going to draw
from our email list with acouple of questions that have
been sent in to us.
You know, learning to havedifficult conversations is at
the heart of successfullynavigating marriage, and today
we're responding to two relatedlistener questions.
(01:25):
The first one is would love anysuggestions on how to make
sharing feelings lessintimidating.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
As a very non-confrontational introvert,
that's a good one, and thesecond one that we're going to
combine together in this episodeis this If you haven't been
completely vulnerable with yourspouse before and you may have
some quote skeletons, how do youinitiate that conversation with
them?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Tough questions about difficult conversations and
we're going to try to grab somemaybe general principles to help
you frame some difficultconversations for your marriage
and hopefully help you navigatethose successfully.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
But before we do that .
We have to remind you that ourannual marriage retreat is
happening again this year andretreat registration is open now
.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Open now.
The retreat, of course, happensin the middle of September this
year, september 18th throughthe 20th at the beautiful
Houston City Place Marriott.
That is right outside theWoodlands, texas in North
Houston, if you're not familiar,that's right.
That 18th to the 20th is aThursday evening through
(02:41):
Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It is, and if you're wondering what does that look
like?
How does that break down?
Thursday through Saturday?
You can go to our website andsee a sample itinerary, just to
give you a little bit of a clue.
We don't proclaim to say that'sexactly the itinerary, but it
gives you a clue what it lookslike.
So go to intimatecovenantcom.
(03:03):
Slash retreat Scroll down toabout halfway down the page-ish
and you'll find a link that youcan click on to see a sample
itinerary.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, See what we do, see what's happening there, see
why it is such an amazingweekend for us and for all the
couples that join us.
Also, if you go to that website, intimatecovenantcom slash
retreat, you'll find that ourtheme for this year, which we
are very excited about, istitled One period One period.
(03:35):
One One, as in becoming oneemotionally, spiritually and
physically.
That is really at the heart ofwhat we have tried to do with
Intimate Covenant, and so wekind of wanted to go back to
some of our foundationalmaterials, some of our
foundational principles andideas that we have really tried
to introduce and frame formarried couples to guide them
(04:00):
into their marriage journey andrelationship, really just
looking to guide couples towardsoneness.
To see that as a goal and apriority for marriage is to seek
that oneness that we're allmade for.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And we always start the retreat on Thursday night
with some form of fun,entertainment, relaxation, just
to kind of get us all there andenjoying the process and
everything together.
And we are going to be we're inthe middle of planning that
we're going to tie up some alittle bit of loose ends and get
(04:36):
a little bit more details foryou guys.
But we will be making anannouncement soon regarding a
very special guest entertainer.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yes, we're going to build a little bit of suspense
while we tie up some of thoseloose ends, but you're going to
be thrilled with thisannouncement.
We are super excited about thisone, so we'll build the
suspense now.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
There you go, you have to come back for the next
podcast.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yes, We'll make that announcement shortly, but we
can't wait to announce that andlet you all in on the big secret
.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And I feel like Matt.
Before we go on to the rest ofthe episode, we need to pause
and say hi.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Welcome, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
To new listeners.
We've had kind of an uptickhere in some of our numbers.
I got to be a guest on theChristian.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Sex Chat for Christian Wives.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Thank you, my words were not coming out with the
order of that name.
Sex Chat for Christian Wives.
I was a guest on their podcastand so I think we maybe gained
some new listeners from that andsome other things going on, and
so we just want to say welcome.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, welcome.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Thanks for being here .
If you're new here, we wouldlike to just pause for a second
and just explain a little bitabout our podcast.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I think that's appropriate.
We probably should do this morefrequently anyway because, who
knows, most of you probablyhaven't gone back to listen
through all 170, some oddepisodes.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
That's a lot of episodes.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So we do want to maybe just reintroduce ourselves
, reintroduce our goals for thispodcast and I think to just
kind of boil it down simply, ourhope here is that we have
created a safe space forconversations among Christians
about difficult topics,specifically with respect to
(06:31):
sexual topics.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Most of us did not grow up with resources to be
able to answer all of ourquestions about sex.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Most of us right.
We didn't necessarily know thatthere was even the option to
ask questions about sex.
Some of us didn't even knowthat sex was something we should
be asking questions about, yes,right, especially my own
(07:01):
sexuality, let alone.
What does that look like in mymarriage and how do I talk about
it when things aren't allperfect?
Or just how do I think aboutsex as a whole?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Exactly so.
We want you first to know thatyou're not alone if you have
questions about your sexualityand especially about the sexual
relationship in marriage, and wewant you to know you're not
alone if you're having conflictsabout sex in your marriage.
Those are normal processes andour hope is to be able to give
(07:34):
you some resources and create aframework for you to be able to
talk about these conflicts in amore productive way in your
marriage relationship.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Right.
We've said all along that ourgoal with this podcast is that
we can help provide theframework to start the
conversations in your marriage.
These are conversations for youto have.
The beauty of the podcast isyou're not sitting here looking
in my eyes I'm not looking intoyour eyes.
So this is a place, a privateplace, in which we can discuss
(08:06):
some of these more delicatetopics, if you will.
I mean, I know it's shocking tohear this, but Matt and I
actually do talk about thingsother than sex.
This is not the only thing.
If only and if you were to joinus at live events, you know that
those events are not just likea live podcast, right, well,
(08:27):
right.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
But I think that the reason we do the podcast and the
reason that we focus on sexualtopics here is because, number
one, this is a great venue to beable to do that and talk about
sensitive things without havingto look in people's eyes,
without having to look inpeople's eyes.
But also, there is a lot aboutthe sexual relationship that is
(08:49):
a reflection of your entirerelationship Absolutely.
And so we want to look throughthe lens of the sexual
relationship at your entiremarriage.
Right, look at the wholeness ofyour oneness.
Because, again, so, justbecause we start with sexual
topics, or maybe just becausewe're addressing specific
(09:10):
questions about sex, doesn'tmean that we want to neglect the
entirety of your relationship.
And we don't want you to neglectthe entirety of your
relationship, because spiritualintimacy and emotional intimacy
are, in fact, required for greatsexual intimacy.
You must have all of thoseelements in order to have great
(09:33):
sex.
So, similarly, your spiritualintimacy and, similarly, your
emotional intimacy are alsonever going to be as fulfilling
as they could be if your sexualconnection is neglected.
All of those elements must beworking together in relationship
, and so, again, just becausewe're starting from sex doesn't
(09:53):
mean that's what it's all aboutor that that's even the most
important part of yourrelationship.
It all is important.
It all must be part of who youare and what you are building.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Right, I think if you're listening for very long
at all, we hope what you walkaway from this podcast knowing
and hearing us say over and overand over, is that sex is about
connection.
What we're also saying is thatyour marriage is about the goal
of connection, the goal ofoneness as the Bible puts forth
(10:28):
for us as our goal, and sothat's what this podcast is all
about.
It is about connection, seekingconnection, seeking intimacy,
seeking oneness in our marriage,sexually and in every other
avenue.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah.
So if you're new here, we woulddefinitely invite you to check
out the rest of our episodes,but understandably, not everyone
is going to binge listen to 170plus episodes.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
What?
Not everybody has that time.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I don't.
I wouldn't listen to all ofthem myself, but we do recommend
if you're starting out here, ifyou haven't already listened to
episode 43, also episode 1A.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It did eventually get saved as 1A.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So you'll find it in both places if you're looking
through the list.
But 1A is our story.
Yeah, and it is a way to helpyou get to know us a little bit
better.
We're Matt and Jen, again bythe way you get to know us a
little bit better we're Matt andJen again, by the way.
Get to know us a little bitbetter and to be able to better
understand our mission and ourpurpose and where all this comes
(11:31):
from and why we do what we do.
We think that'd be insightfulfor you.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So again, if you're new, welcome.
Thanks for being here, and nowlet's jump into our episode.
So, as we were saying, we havetwo questions that we want to
tackle today.
Both come from listeners to thepodcast.
So thank you, listeners, thanksfor sending in these questions.
Again, if you have questions,you can email them to us at
podcast at intimatecovenantcom.
(11:57):
But both of these questions areabout navigating difficult
conversations with spouses.
One of them, one of thequestions, is from an introvert,
about sharing feelings.
Matt, you don't know anythingabout that one right Never heard
of it.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Never heard of it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
The other is about revealing skeletons that we may
not have been fully transparentabout in the past.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
These sound like difficult conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
They both are.
That's our theme today, sothat's where we're going to go.
All right, let's start with ourintrovert emailer.
Thank you for emailing us, mrIntrovert.
Do we know if it's male orfemale?
We don't know we don't I justmade assumptions.
Sorry about that.
Maybe it's Mrs Introvert itsays I would love any
(12:45):
suggestions on how to makesharing feelings less
intimidating.
As a very non-confrontationalintrovert, I love how they
explain themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, well, as you have alluded to, I can
definitely relate to being anon-confrontational introvert.
That is where I started out inmy life.
That is where I started out inmy life.
That is where I started out inour marriage.
I'm happy to say that I amstill an introvert.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You are.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
But I am.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's shocking to people who hear you on this
podcast, but if you know Matt,in social settings he is very
much an introvert.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I'm definitely an introvert in social settings.
He is very much an introvert.
Yeah, I'm definitely anintrovert in social settings.
I can turn on this persona thatis a little bit more engaging
in a public setting, butdefinitely an introvert yeah but
you started there.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
You started our marriage from a place of sharing
feelings, even getting to thedepth of considering why you
feel what you feel, what it isthat you're feeling.
That was a hard.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That was a scary place for me because I was
definitely non-confrontational.
Not only was I an introvert,but I was also an avoider in
terms of avoiding any kind ofconflict or difficulty.
I'm happy to say that I am notthat any longer.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So what's your advice ?
How did you get where you arenow, and what would you say to
this emailer?
Oh, so you're turning this onme.
I'm just yeah, why not?
Okay?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So I think one place to start in this if you are
feeling non-confrontational oryou're scared about having
conversations about yourfeelings, I guess I would first
have you consider and thinkabout what is holding you back.
What is it exactly that you areafraid of?
(14:33):
If you're scared to share yourfeelings with a coworker or
scared to share your feelingswith your boss okay, that's
understandable.
That is probably not a verysafe place to share your
feelings with your boss.
Okay, that's understandable.
That is probably not a verysafe place to share your
feelings.
But consider why you might beafraid of sharing your feelings
with your spouse.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
The person that you have covenantally bound yourself
to and declared that you wouldseek oneness with.
Why are you holding yourselfback from them?
Yeah, that's a good place tostart.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I think that's a good place to start, because if
that's where you start, youmight come to quickly realize
that maybe this is not areasonable fear to have Now.
It might be, and if that's thecase, then there's probably some
other work that needs to bedone.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Certainly, it could be that you are married to
someone who has let it be knownthat it's not safe to share your
feelings Right right.
And if so, then that's anotherissue, right.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Well, it's another issue.
It's certainly wrapped up inthis Well right, not, where you
feel unsafe to share yourfeelings.
I think you have to alsoconsider, not only consider
what's holding you back, butconsider what the alternative is
.
If the alternative to sharingyour feelings means that you
(15:56):
will never be known for who youare, and if that's the path that
you continue, then you'll neverknow full oneness, you'll never
be able to get beyond just asuperficial understanding of one
another.
And I would just ask you I mean, do you want to be loved for
(16:19):
who you really are or do youwant to be loved for some other
version of yourself?
Because when you're dating, andespecially when you first are
married, you're growing together, you're in that honeymoon phase
.
The reality is, you're notloved for who you are.
Your spouse is in love withyour PR department, and so the
(16:44):
only way to get to know eachother and to love each other for
who you really are is toactually be sharing who you
really are.
So that's the reward that is atthe end of the risk of sharing
who you are Now.
Sharing who you really are,sharing your feelings that comes
with the risk of being rejected, and so I think that is what
(17:08):
introverts are afraid of.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And I kind of think that that's what's being alluded
to here.
So, as someone who is very openwith sharing my feelings, what
I picked up on in this email wasthat that they equated sharing
feelings with confrontation.
How do I make sharing feelingsfeel less intimidating as a very
(17:33):
non-confrontational introvert?
So, in other words, why isthere a connection between
sharing feelings andconfrontation?
And maybe that connectionreally does exist in their
marriage?
But is it also possible thatbecause rejection is such a
(17:53):
place of fear that that negativemotivator is causing them to
hold back from sharing feelingsbecause that feels like I
potentially could put myself ina place of rejection?
That feels a lot likeconfrontation, right, yeah
absolutely.
So why the tie?
And could you maybe break thattie a little bit?
(18:15):
Could, you consider thatsharing your feelings doesn't
have to be confrontation.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I think that's an astute observation of the
question and the fact that maybethis person is tying
confrontation to sharingfeelings and maybe that's
something that comes from thisparticular marriage relationship
, but my guess is it probably issomething that originated far
well before they even knew eachother that this is something
(18:41):
that maybe this person has beeneither rejected or they have
been confronted or are for somereason afraid to share their
feelings.
Again, that's something thatthis questioner has to really
wrestle with.
Where is that fear coming from,and is it a rational fear?
Is my spouse someone that I cantrust with my feelings?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Right, and you just said you know they may need to
wrestle with this.
I think that's really the heartof a lot of this is it may just
be and I think this was theplace that you started out just
a complete unfamiliarity withyour own feelings or needs or
wants, I mean.
And if you're not sure of howyou feel or what you might need,
(19:25):
how in the world can youpossibly share that with someone
else?
Right?
What you might need, how in theworld can you possibly share
that with someone else?
Right?
So sometimes it's coming from aplace of like.
Have you even been willing toreally look into your own self,
to do the hard work ofunderstanding your own self, to
challenge yourself foridentifying what is it that I am
feeling?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Absolutely.
I think you hit the nail on thehead, at least for me.
My fear of sharing feelings wasnot that I was afraid of
something specific.
It was really more along thelines of I just was so
non-emotionally intelligent Idon't know what the right word
is there.
(20:05):
You're a very intelligent man,but I was emotionally unequipped
, in that I didn't even know howto describe my feelings.
And I think a lot of men maybewomen too, but at least I can
speak, probably for men a lot ofus are unequipped to wrestle
with our feelings.
We really know and arecomfortable with just less than
(20:27):
a handful of feelings, primarilyanger.
We understand that really welland we can do that really well,
but we are very unfamiliar withthe nuance of all the different
types of feelings.
So that is, and so I mean aconversation has to start with
vocabulary, right?
(20:48):
If I only know whether I'mhappy, sad or angry, I'm not
going to be able to have a veryin-depth conversation about how
I'm feeling Now.
A conversation can start fromthere and then we can work
through some of that nuance.
But this is something that, forme at least, required quite a
bit of practice, something that,for me at least, required quite
(21:12):
a bit of practice.
So for some of us it's going torequire practice and it's going
to require a spouse who iswilling to be patient enough to
help us learn how to expressthat emotion.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Well and I can speak to that, I had to learn that the
more pressure I put on you to,how are you feeling?
Why are you feeling that way?
Are you feeling the right thing?
No, I don't think you'refeeling that.
I think you're feeling this.
All of that equated into awhole lot of pressure that made
it real easy for you to thenfeel like that was confrontation
(21:44):
, right.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, well, pressure feels like confrontation.
So, as the spouse of someonewho's struggling with learning
how to share feelings, if Icould speak to that spouse I
would say be patient, be patient, yeah, be patient, and if this
is a scary process to you orthis is just something you're
unfamiliar with, you also justneed to be diligent and
(22:07):
constantly ask yourself what isthis emotion that I'm feeling?
Can I be more specific thanhappy, angry or sad?
And can I learn then how tocommunicate that with my spouse
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
So what are things that you did that helped you get
there?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well, I think part of it is.
You know, I started askingmyself those kinds of questions
and asking myself that even whenI'm telling you, especially
when I'm just telling you thedetails of my day, yeah, so a
conversation probably everycouple has in the evening or
after a long day is how was yourday?
(22:45):
How was your day and then wetalk about, we tell each other
the stories about what happenedduring the day, we tell the
facts of the day.
But you're right, we tell thefacts at least, especially I'll
speak for myself and probablymost men.
We tell the facts of the day.
But I had to push myself to bea little bit more, go a little
bit more in depth, ask myselfand then be able to describe to
(23:06):
my spouse.
How did that make me feel, yeah, can I be more specific?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
And when you started doing that I felt like it opened
up a whole world to now.
I am learning so much moreabout you and knowing you.
You know I didn't franklyreally care about the facts of
the day.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You didn't care how many surgeries I did or how many
patients I saw.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right about the facts of the day.
You didn't care how manysurgeries I did or how many
patients I saw, right, but Icared about how that made you
feel, because that's your heartand that's where I learn who you
are.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, and that's because sharing with you the
facts of the day only helps meshare myself so much.
But if I can tell you thatthose events made me stressed or
anxious, or they made me feelfulfilled and accomplished, or
proud or whatever it was, thatis sharing the realness of who
we actually are.
That's getting below thesurface and getting to something
(23:58):
much more meaningful.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Now a tool that we started using in our marriage
and then we kind of furtherdeveloped it into something that
you guys can use.
Previously we called this thedaily check-in.
We renamed it a little bitnicer name to covenant
conversations.
You can hear all about this inepisode 154, but this was a tool
(24:23):
that really helped us practicethis skill.
It's a guided conversation,takes less than 20 minutes and
it was a way, a structured way,in which we could like apply
this every day.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
It's a structured way and it helps you turn this into
a ritual, something that you'redoing regularly and that you
can learn how to value andcherish.
But again, the value, I think,is in that it is structured.
There is a framework in whichto have this conversation, where
we go from having conversationand building mental intimacy it
(24:59):
builds emotional and spiritualintimacy and even physical
intimacy.
So it's a great way to helplearn this skill.
And then one tool that you canwrap into this covenant
conversation is something calledan emotion wheel.
This was not created by us, butwe have adapted it for this use
(25:21):
.
It is a way to look atsometimes for some of us who
think about emotion very simply.
Look at sometimes, for some ofus who think about emotion very
simply, in the center of thiswheel are the eight basic
emotions and then, fanning outfrom those eight basic emotions,
are nuances of those emotions,and it helps you really dig down
to something deeper than justsad.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And I remember when we first discovered this and
again, we didn't create it, butit was a big breakthrough for us
I remember looking at all thosenuanced emotions and I could
immediately come up with a time,a place.
I could connect that word to animmediate feeling.
And I remember being shocked,shocked that you would look at
(26:08):
these words and be like, okay,I'm working, let me think about
this, you know, and seeing thecenter of that wheel and the
basic emotions and being likethat's where you're at, like
goodness, I am way out here andyou're just in that little
center.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, there were words on that wheel that I would
have never thought to use,about how I felt about something
.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So if you're wondering, wow this emotion
wheel sounds like a great tool.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Well, if you send me an email, I will be happy to
send you a copy of the emotionwheel, but if you join Patreon,
you will have access to thisresource, as well as a number of
other resources, for free,forever.
You have access to that.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Patreon is a way for you to financially support us in
as little as $5 a month lessthan a cup of coffee but it's a
way that you can help support usand the work that we do here on
the podcast, and so in return,we'll give you some resources.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yes, so that's one of several that are available
there, and we'd be happy to haveyou join us.
Patreoncom slash intimatecovenant.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
All right, let's get to our second email and it says
if you haven't been completelyvulnerable with a spouse before
and you may have some quoteskeletons how do you initiate
that conversation with them?
So this is a good one.
This is somebody who recognizesthere are some difficult
(27:39):
conversations ahead, that theyseem to need to have.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
And how do you do that?
They've been withholding that.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
First of all, good job.
Good job for being at a placewhere you say I want more, I
want a deeper connection.
I don't want this to be betweenus.
I mean, that's the pursuit ofoneness, right?
So whoever sent this in to usjust know that we're here
cheering for you.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Because we're proud of you for asking this question.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
This is a big step in a lot of relationships and it's
a big question, and I would sayfor us to be able to answer
this question completely, itreally is highly dependent on
your individual situation.
It's dependent on the maturityof your marriage.
It is dependent on the natureof what you have to confess.
(28:28):
Yeah, your marriage it isdependent on the nature of what
you have to confess.
And I would just caution here,before we get too far into this,
that many conversations likethis should absolutely be guided
by a trained therapist or, atthe very least, a very wise and
godly mentor.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, and we did an episode about this way back at
the beginning.
So go all the way back toepisode 34 for maybe some more
details on how to go abouthaving those really difficult
conversations.
I do think that this emailer isusing the phrase skeletons.
(29:06):
That tends to be a phrase thatwe use when we're talking about
sexual pasts, and so it's likelynot always, but likely that
that's kind of where this isleading, and yet that's a really
hard conversation.
It can bring up a lot ofemotions on both sides.
(29:26):
So again, that might be a placewhere you recognize there needs
to be a third party to helpnavigate some or all of this
kind of conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, absolutely, but I think that's true just
generally, that the more we knowabout each other, the more that
(29:59):
we are open and transparentwith one another, the more we
can become one, and if there arebarriers between you, then
those barriers need to beremoved and that distance needs
to be healed.
In James 5.16, james is veryclear that healing begins with
(30:21):
confession, and so confession isessential and really, if you
just want to get really down andbasic with this, confession
just simply means to tell thetruth.
Yeah, so telling the truthJesus says the truth will set
you free right.
Telling the truth is essentialin a covenant relationship like
(30:44):
this.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And if you want true intimacy, if you want that level
of knowing and being known, youhave to reveal yourself.
I mean, just like the previousemail and questioner, if you're
not revealing who you are, ifyou're not sharing your feelings
, if you're not sharing thefullness of who you are, even
(31:09):
the parts that you're ashamed of, you're not going to have the
level of intimacy that I thinkGod intended, that scriptures
proclaim.
That is what God intended forour marriages.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Naked and unashamed.
That's how he defines thatfirst ideal marriage
relationship.
And if there is something thatyou're not willing to confess,
if there is something thatyou're not willing to confess,
then there is something thatyour spouse cannot know.
And you can only be known asmuch as you're willing to tell
the truth about yourself.
Your intimacy is only as deepas your honesty.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
That statement kind of hurts a little bit If you're
in a place of holding back thatyour intimacy is only as deep as
your honesty.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
And I think the corollary to that is that you
can only be loved as much as youare willing to reveal.
Your spouse can only love whatthey know about you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Right, and you know, and not that every part of us is
lovable, but there is real lovethat comes from knowing not
just the beautiful parts but thereal, authentic, sometimes ugly
parts as well.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I would contend that in this life, the greatest gift
that you will ever have is to beloved for who you really are.
That's true no matter whatrelationship we're talking about
.
I mean, it's true.
Your kids will love you as aparent in spite of all the times
that you mess things up forthem.
Your friends will often loveyou in spite of all the flaws
(32:49):
that they see in you.
But in the most intimate andmost, the closest relationship
that you have in this life ismarriage.
It's the only one that'scovenantally bound to another
person.
To be loved by that person, whoknows you the most deeply, is
(33:10):
the most and the greatest giftthat you will have in this life,
other than, of course, theblessing of God.
But guess what?
The blessing that comes fromGod is to be loved by Him in
spite of who we are.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I mean, yeah, that's the love that he offers us and
that's the love that he calls usto in marriage, because our
marriages are a metaphor of hislove for us.
And so, like you said earlier,it's all about the pursuit of
being naked and not ashamed withone another.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
So, in all of our relationships, but in particular
in the marriage relationship,god calls us to confession in
part, so that we will own it inpart, so that we will
acknowledge where we have fallenshort, that we will acknowledge
where it's our fault, where wewill acknowledge where we have
betrayed our spouse.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, we can be tempted to think that I don't
really need to confess, I justneed to do better, or I'll have
that in my closet, my skeleton.
But as long as I don't ever dothat again, or as long as I'm a
different person than that,that's good enough.
But it's ultimately theconfession, the owning it, the
(34:28):
taking it out, if you will, andlooking at it and owning it,
that confession is what willstrengthen the relationship
between two covenantly boundpeople, if they know how to
handle the confession correctly,if they know how to use that
confession to deepen thatcovenant and that connection
(34:51):
with one another.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
If both of us are willing to confront that truth,
as ugly as it might be, but ifwe're willing to confront that
truth with humility and graceand love from both sides, then
that confession becomes a placethat you didn't know before.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Now that's a knowledge that comes with pain,
certainly, but it is alsoknowledge that you didn't have
before, and so you have torecognize the beauty even within
that.
And so how do you get there?
(35:30):
How do you share in this kindof way?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Well, I think for this person who's trying to
gather, trying to figure out howto go about and start this
conversation, I think somethingprimary that this person needs
to understand is you mustconfess and come clean entirely
the first time.
If you try to spread this outor if you think, well, my spouse
(35:57):
can only handle this much andyou don't share the whole story,
you are ultimately going to bedoing more damage.
If you don't tell the wholetruth the first time, if you try
to reveal this in pieces, it'snot going to go well.
You're going to actually erodeyour spouse's trust rather than
(36:18):
build it.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
And within coming clean.
I think it's also imperativethat you take responsibility for
your past.
So it may be that your spousedidn't know about these
skeletons, but I can guaranteethat those have caused a barrier
in your marriage, and so youhave to own that.
You have to own that you havekept back a part of yourself
(36:42):
from your spouse and, whether ornot they knew that beforehand
them learning that highlightsthat barrier within your
marriage, and so you have totake your part of the barrier
that that has caused in yourmarital intimacy, and I don't
just mean sexually, I meanthat's emotionally too.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, even if this is a sexual sin again, whether
that sin happened before youwere married or after you were
married, even if it's a sexualsin, it's going to impact all of
the other ways in which you areintimate.
It's going to affect youremotional intimacy.
It's going to have placedbarriers between you spiritually
(37:25):
.
So you have to own that, youhave to take responsibility for
that and you also have to have aplan for making sure that that
kind of thing never happensagain.
That's what you need to bringto your spouse Come clean and
take responsibility for not onlyrepenting and confessing of
(37:45):
what's gone on in the past, butalso repenting and making your
life different now, today, andcommitting to being fully open
and honest with your spouse.
Now, when you do that, to beclear, when you do that, your
spouse is going to be hurt.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Now lots of people want to ask this question how
can I tell my spouse somethingand then not get upset about it?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
How can I control their reaction to what I'm about
to say?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
You can't, ain't going to say you can't, ain't
gonna happen.
No.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You can't, and so your spouse will be hurt.
I mean, in part, that's becauseyou've betrayed your covenant,
you have not been fully known,and so it will be hard.
But if you want to overcome theguilt and the intimacy issues
that come with having a sexualpast, you have to eliminate the
(38:41):
secrets, and so if your skeletoninvolves a sexual sin, the only
way you're going to overcomethat guilt, the only way you're
going to overcome the barrierthat that is, is by eliminating
the secret.
So just because it's going tohurt your spouse doesn't mean,
(39:01):
therefore, you shouldn't tellthem.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Right Now.
The other part of this is youalso have to let your speech be
seasoned with salt.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Your speech should be gracious and seasoned with salt
, and I think this is a vital,vital part of this conversation.
Right, you need to share basicfacts.
I mean, some things simplywould not be loving to share.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, if, for example , if we're confessing some
sexual betrayal, your spouseneeds to know that that happened
and your spouse needs to know,probably, who it happened with.
They don't need to know theroom number of the hotel room
that you used, they don't needto know what color the sheets
were or whatever else might havehappened, but they do need to
(39:46):
know the basic facts.
Some details are just not goingto be loving to share, right
Ephesians 4.15, speak the truthin love.
So the raw details of pastindiscretions, the raw details
of these kinds of traumas, arenot all loving.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And that's where, again, a trained professional
might be who needs to help guideyou through this.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yep.
Now I would say, if you are theone confessing, you should be
willing and be prepared to tellyour spouse as much as they want
to know.
You should be willing and readyto answer any question that
they have, because they need toknow that you're not keeping
secrets.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
And you also need to not be keeping secrets.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Right, if you're the spouse that it's being told, to
stop and recognize that certaindetails of who, what, when,
(40:52):
where, how, those all mightactually create a foothold for
jealousy and anger.
They will plant mental imagesthat might haunt your mind and
your heart for years to comeyour mind and your heart for
years to come.
So you need to recognize thatyou don't actually maybe want to
know all of those kind ofdetails and again, that's where
we would advise if that's thelevel of skeletons, then seek
the help.
(41:12):
To help guide this conversation, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
A trained mentor or a counselor can help both of you
understand what might be helpfulto share and what is probably
not going to be helpful to share.
They can help guide thatconversation and help you both
understand where those limitsneed to be, based on your
individual circumstances.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And so then, once those skeletons have been
revealed, now you know eachother in a way that you didn't
know before, and that, then, isa place for you to forgive
yourself and for both of you toforgive each other fully.
You've got to state it to eachother specifically, You've got
(42:00):
to find the freedom from thatsin and that shame.
I mean again, we're imploringyou to get rid of the skeletons.
It might be painful, it will bepainful, but there is so much
joy on the other side, andthat's what God calls you to.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yes, because then you both have an opportunity to
rebuild something from the ashesof that confession.
You can now build somethingthat is free of barriers, and
you can have an opportunity thento build greater trust with one
another, greater depth ofintimacy, greater depth of
knowing each other.
(42:39):
You can understand each otherbetter.
There is a place, then, to beable to celebrate and to expand
this new level of intimacy thatyou have created by confession.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
And that doesn't happen overnight.
We're not trying to make thissound like a completely simple
process, but we are calling youto begin.
Begin this journey.
Get rid of those barriersbetween you.
Be naked and not ashamed, right?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
All right, matt, give us our wrap-up can be a
difficult conversation for some,and this is a skill which will
require some intentionalpractice.
Vulnerability is the heart ofintimate relationships, and
revealing the fullness ofyourself is the only way to be
(43:29):
loved for who you really are.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Now it's time to grab your spouse and your Bible and
head to your kitchen table, havethe conversation about
difficult conversations.
What are you going to do tolean into conversations that
make you want to run and hide?
Speaker 1 (43:47):
We would love to hear your feedback.
Contact us by emailing podcastat intimatecovenantcom or to
submit anonymous feedback andquestions, go to
intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and your support.
Thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at Patreoncom.
Slash.
Intimate Covenant has blessedyour marriage.
(44:19):
We'd love to have you join ustoo.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
And please support our affiliate businesses who
help support Intimate CovenantLinks, and exclusive discount
codes to these marriage-centeredbusinesses are now in the show
notes and until next time, keepstriving and don't settle.
Hey, jen wanna talk about difficult conversations.
Every conversation with youbehind the microphone is
difficult, Great today on thepodcast, we're talking about
having challenging conversations, like sharing difficult
feelings or sharing a pastyou're not proud of.
Is there a way to make thiseasier?
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We're Matt and Jen, and this is the Intimate
Covenant Podcast, where webelieve the Bible and great
marriage.
Sex both belong on the kitchentable.
That's right.
We are talking about godlymarriage.
We're talking about hot sex andwe are talking about
emotionally fulfilling onenessin your marriage.
We're so grateful you're withus.
Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
That's right, and if you would like to learn more
about us, you can do so by goingto our website,
intimatecovenantcom, and wewould always love to hear from
you.
You can send us an email atpodcast at IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
And, like many episodes, we're going to draw
from our email list with acouple of questions that have
been sent in to us.
You know, learning to havedifficult conversations is at
the heart of successfullynavigating marriage, and today
we're responding to two relatedlistener questions.
(01:25):
The first one is would love anysuggestions on how to make
sharing feelings lessintimidating.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
As a very non-confrontational introvert,
that's a good one, and thesecond one that we're going to
combine together in this episodeis this If you haven't been
completely vulnerable with yourspouse before and you may have
some quote skeletons, how do youinitiate that conversation with
them?
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Tough questions about difficult conversations and
we're going to try to grab somemaybe general principles to help
you frame some difficultconversations for your marriage
and hopefully help you navigatethose successfully.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
But before we do that .
We have to remind you that ourannual marriage retreat is
happening again this year andretreat registration is open now
.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Open now.
The retreat, of course, happensin the middle of September this
year, september 18th throughthe 20th at the beautiful
Houston City Place Marriott.
That is right outside theWoodlands, texas in North
Houston, if you're not familiar,that's right.
That 18th to the 20th is aThursday evening through
(02:41):
Saturday afternoon.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
It is, and if you're wondering what does that look
like?
How does that break down?
Thursday through Saturday?
You can go to our website andsee a sample itinerary, just to
give you a little bit of a clue.
We don't proclaim to say that'sexactly the itinerary, but it
gives you a clue what it lookslike.
So go to intimatecovenantcom.
(03:03):
Slash retreat Scroll down toabout halfway down the page-ish
and you'll find a link that youcan click on to see a sample
itinerary.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, See what we do, see what's happening there, see
why it is such an amazingweekend for us and for all the
couples that join us.
Also, if you go to that website, intimatecovenantcom slash
retreat, you'll find that ourtheme for this year, which we
are very excited about, istitled One period One period.
(03:35):
One One, as in becoming oneemotionally, spiritually and
physically.
That is really at the heart ofwhat we have tried to do with
Intimate Covenant, and so wekind of wanted to go back to
some of our foundationalmaterials, some of our
foundational principles andideas that we have really tried
to introduce and frame formarried couples to guide them
(04:00):
into their marriage journey andrelationship, really just
looking to guide couples towardsoneness.
To see that as a goal and apriority for marriage is to seek
that oneness that we're allmade for.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And we always start the retreat on Thursday night
with some form of fun,entertainment, relaxation, just
to kind of get us all there andenjoying the process and
everything together.
And we are going to be we're inthe middle of planning that
we're going to tie up some alittle bit of loose ends and get
(04:36):
a little bit more details foryou guys.
But we will be making anannouncement soon regarding a
very special guest entertainer.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yes, we're going to build a little bit of suspense
while we tie up some of thoseloose ends, but you're going to
be thrilled with thisannouncement.
We are super excited about thisone, so we'll build the
suspense now.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
There you go, you have to come back for the next
podcast.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yes, We'll make that announcement shortly, but we
can't wait to announce that andlet you all in on the big secret
.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And I feel like Matt.
Before we go on to the rest ofthe episode, we need to pause
and say hi.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Welcome, yes.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
To new listeners.
We've had kind of an uptickhere in some of our numbers.
I got to be a guest on theChristian.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Sex Chat for Christian Wives.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Thank you, my words were not coming out with the
order of that name.
Sex Chat for Christian Wives.
I was a guest on their podcastand so I think we maybe gained
some new listeners from that andsome other things going on, and
so we just want to say welcome.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, welcome.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Thanks for being here .
If you're new here, we wouldlike to just pause for a second
and just explain a little bitabout our podcast.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Yeah, I think that's appropriate.
We probably should do this morefrequently anyway because, who
knows, most of you probablyhaven't gone back to listen
through all 170, some oddepisodes.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
That's a lot of episodes.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So we do want to maybe just reintroduce ourselves
, reintroduce our goals for thispodcast and I think to just
kind of boil it down simply, ourhope here is that we have
created a safe space forconversations among Christians
about difficult topics,specifically with respect to
(06:31):
sexual topics.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Most of us did not grow up with resources to be
able to answer all of ourquestions about sex.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Most of us right.
We didn't necessarily know thatthere was even the option to
ask questions about sex.
Some of us didn't even knowthat sex was something we should
be asking questions about, yes,right, especially my own
(07:01):
sexuality, let alone.
What does that look like in mymarriage and how do I talk about
it when things aren't allperfect?
Or just how do I think aboutsex as a whole?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Exactly so.
We want you first to know thatyou're not alone if you have
questions about your sexualityand especially about the sexual
relationship in marriage, and wewant you to know you're not
alone if you're having conflictsabout sex in your marriage.
Those are normal processes andour hope is to be able to give
(07:34):
you some resources and create aframework for you to be able to
talk about these conflicts in amore productive way in your
marriage relationship.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Right.
We've said all along that ourgoal with this podcast is that
we can help provide theframework to start the
conversations in your marriage.
These are conversations for youto have.
The beauty of the podcast isyou're not sitting here looking
in my eyes I'm not looking intoyour eyes.
So this is a place, a privateplace, in which we can discuss
(08:06):
some of these more delicatetopics, if you will.
I mean, I know it's shocking tohear this, but Matt and I
actually do talk about thingsother than sex.
This is not the only thing.
If only and if you were to joinus at live events, you know that
those events are not just likea live podcast, right, well,
(08:27):
right.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
But I think that the reason we do the podcast and the
reason that we focus on sexualtopics here is because, number
one, this is a great venue to beable to do that and talk about
sensitive things without havingto look in people's eyes,
without having to look inpeople's eyes.
But also, there is a lot aboutthe sexual relationship that is
(08:49):
a reflection of your entirerelationship Absolutely.
And so we want to look throughthe lens of the sexual
relationship at your entiremarriage.
Right, look at the wholeness ofyour oneness.
Because, again, so, justbecause we start with sexual
topics, or maybe just becausewe're addressing specific
(09:10):
questions about sex, doesn'tmean that we want to neglect the
entirety of your relationship.
And we don't want you to neglectthe entirety of your
relationship, because spiritualintimacy and emotional intimacy
are, in fact, required for greatsexual intimacy.
You must have all of thoseelements in order to have great
(09:33):
sex.
So, similarly, your spiritualintimacy and, similarly, your
emotional intimacy are alsonever going to be as fulfilling
as they could be if your sexualconnection is neglected.
All of those elements must beworking together in relationship
, and so, again, just becausewe're starting from sex doesn't
(09:53):
mean that's what it's all aboutor that that's even the most
important part of yourrelationship.
It all is important.
It all must be part of who youare and what you are building.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Right, I think if you're listening for very long
at all, we hope what you walkaway from this podcast knowing
and hearing us say over and overand over, is that sex is about
connection.
What we're also saying is thatyour marriage is about the goal
of connection, the goal ofoneness as the Bible puts forth
(10:28):
for us as our goal, and sothat's what this podcast is all
about.
It is about connection, seekingconnection, seeking intimacy,
seeking oneness in our marriage,sexually and in every other
avenue.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah.
So if you're new here, we woulddefinitely invite you to check
out the rest of our episodes,but understandably, not everyone
is going to binge listen to 170plus episodes.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
What?
Not everybody has that time.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
I don't.
I wouldn't listen to all ofthem myself, but we do recommend
if you're starting out here, ifyou haven't already listened to
episode 43, also episode 1A.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
It did eventually get saved as 1A.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
So you'll find it in both places if you're looking
through the list.
But 1A is our story.
Yeah, and it is a way to helpyou get to know us a little bit
better.
We're Matt and Jen, again bythe way you get to know us a
little bit better we're Matt andJen again, by the way.
Get to know us a little bitbetter and to be able to better
understand our mission and ourpurpose and where all this comes
(11:31):
from and why we do what we do.
We think that'd be insightfulfor you.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
So again, if you're new, welcome.
Thanks for being here, and nowlet's jump into our episode.
So, as we were saying, we havetwo questions that we want to
tackle today.
Both come from listeners to thepodcast.
So thank you, listeners, thanksfor sending in these questions.
Again, if you have questions,you can email them to us at
podcast at intimatecovenantcom.
(11:57):
But both of these questions areabout navigating difficult
conversations with spouses.
One of them, one of thequestions, is from an introvert,
about sharing feelings.
Matt, you don't know anythingabout that one right Never heard
of it.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Never heard of it.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
The other is about revealing skeletons that we may
not have been fully transparentabout in the past.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
These sound like difficult conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
They both are.
That's our theme today, sothat's where we're going to go.
All right, let's start with ourintrovert emailer.
Thank you for emailing us, mrIntrovert.
Do we know if it's male orfemale?
We don't know we don't I justmade assumptions.
Sorry about that.
Maybe it's Mrs Introvert itsays I would love any
(12:45):
suggestions on how to makesharing feelings less
intimidating.
As a very non-confrontationalintrovert, I love how they
explain themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah, well, as you have alluded to, I can
definitely relate to being anon-confrontational introvert.
That is where I started out inmy life.
That is where I started out inmy life.
That is where I started out inour marriage.
I'm happy to say that I amstill an introvert.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You are.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
But I am.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
That's shocking to people who hear you on this
podcast, but if you know Matt,in social settings he is very
much an introvert.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Yeah, I'm definitely an introvert in social settings.
He is very much an introvert.
Yeah, I'm definitely anintrovert in social settings.
I can turn on this persona thatis a little bit more engaging
in a public setting, butdefinitely an introvert yeah but
you started there.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
You started our marriage from a place of sharing
feelings, even getting to thedepth of considering why you
feel what you feel, what it isthat you're feeling.
That was a hard.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
That was a scary place for me because I was
definitely non-confrontational.
Not only was I an introvert,but I was also an avoider in
terms of avoiding any kind ofconflict or difficulty.
I'm happy to say that I am notthat any longer.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So what's your advice ?
How did you get where you arenow, and what would you say to
this emailer?
Oh, so you're turning this onme.
I'm just yeah, why not?
Okay?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
So I think one place to start in this if you are
feeling non-confrontational oryou're scared about having
conversations about yourfeelings, I guess I would first
have you consider and thinkabout what is holding you back.
What is it exactly that you areafraid of?
(14:33):
If you're scared to share yourfeelings with a coworker or
scared to share your feelingswith your boss okay, that's
understandable.
That is probably not a verysafe place to share your
feelings with your boss.
Okay, that's understandable.
That is probably not a verysafe place to share your
feelings.
But consider why you might beafraid of sharing your feelings
with your spouse.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
The person that you have covenantally bound yourself
to and declared that you wouldseek oneness with.
Why are you holding yourselfback from them?
Yeah, that's a good place tostart.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I think that's a good place to start, because if
that's where you start, youmight come to quickly realize
that maybe this is not areasonable fear to have Now.
It might be, and if that's thecase, then there's probably some
other work that needs to bedone.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Certainly, it could be that you are married to
someone who has let it be knownthat it's not safe to share your
feelings Right right.
And if so, then that's anotherissue, right.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Well, it's another issue.
It's certainly wrapped up inthis Well right, not, where you
feel unsafe to share yourfeelings.
I think you have to alsoconsider, not only consider
what's holding you back, butconsider what the alternative is
.
If the alternative to sharingyour feelings means that you
(15:56):
will never be known for who youare, and if that's the path that
you continue, then you'll neverknow full oneness, you'll never
be able to get beyond just asuperficial understanding of one
another.
And I would just ask you I mean, do you want to be loved for
(16:19):
who you really are or do youwant to be loved for some other
version of yourself?
Because when you're dating, andespecially when you first are
married, you're growing together, you're in that honeymoon phase
.
The reality is, you're notloved for who you are.
Your spouse is in love withyour PR department, and so the
(16:44):
only way to get to know eachother and to love each other for
who you really are is toactually be sharing who you
really are.
So that's the reward that is atthe end of the risk of sharing
who you are Now.
Sharing who you really are,sharing your feelings that comes
with the risk of being rejected, and so I think that is what
(17:08):
introverts are afraid of.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And I kind of think that that's what's being alluded
to here.
So, as someone who is very openwith sharing my feelings, what
I picked up on in this email wasthat that they equated sharing
feelings with confrontation.
How do I make sharing feelingsfeel less intimidating as a very
(17:33):
non-confrontational introvert?
So, in other words, why isthere a connection between
sharing feelings andconfrontation?
And maybe that connectionreally does exist in their
marriage?
But is it also possible thatbecause rejection is such a
(17:53):
place of fear that that negativemotivator is causing them to
hold back from sharing feelingsbecause that feels like I
potentially could put myself ina place of rejection?
That feels a lot likeconfrontation, right, yeah
absolutely.
So why the tie?
And could you maybe break thattie a little bit?
(18:15):
Could, you consider thatsharing your feelings doesn't
have to be confrontation.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I think that's an astute observation of the
question and the fact that maybethis person is tying
confrontation to sharingfeelings and maybe that's
something that comes from thisparticular marriage relationship
, but my guess is it probably issomething that originated far
well before they even knew eachother that this is something
(18:41):
that maybe this person has beeneither rejected or they have
been confronted or are for somereason afraid to share their
feelings.
Again, that's something thatthis questioner has to really
wrestle with.
Where is that fear coming from,and is it a rational fear?
Is my spouse someone that I cantrust with my feelings?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Right, and you just said you know they may need to
wrestle with this.
I think that's really the heartof a lot of this is it may just
be and I think this was theplace that you started out just
a complete unfamiliarity withyour own feelings or needs or
wants, I mean.
And if you're not sure of howyou feel or what you might need,
(19:25):
how in the world can youpossibly share that with someone
else?
Right?
What you might need, how in theworld can you possibly share
that with someone else?
Right?
So sometimes it's coming from aplace of like.
Have you even been willing toreally look into your own self,
to do the hard work ofunderstanding your own self, to
challenge yourself foridentifying what is it that I am
feeling?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Absolutely.
I think you hit the nail on thehead, at least for me.
My fear of sharing feelings wasnot that I was afraid of
something specific.
It was really more along thelines of I just was so
non-emotionally intelligent Idon't know what the right word
is there.
(20:05):
You're a very intelligent man,but I was emotionally unequipped
, in that I didn't even know howto describe my feelings.
And I think a lot of men maybewomen too, but at least I can
speak, probably for men a lot ofus are unequipped to wrestle
with our feelings.
We really know and arecomfortable with just less than
(20:27):
a handful of feelings, primarilyanger.
We understand that really welland we can do that really well,
but we are very unfamiliar withthe nuance of all the different
types of feelings.
So that is, and so I mean aconversation has to start with
vocabulary, right?
(20:48):
If I only know whether I'mhappy, sad or angry, I'm not
going to be able to have a veryin-depth conversation about how
I'm feeling Now.
A conversation can start fromthere and then we can work
through some of that nuance.
But this is something that, forme at least, required quite a
bit of practice, something that,for me at least, required quite
(21:12):
a bit of practice.
So for some of us it's going torequire practice and it's going
to require a spouse who iswilling to be patient enough to
help us learn how to expressthat emotion.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Well and I can speak to that, I had to learn that the
more pressure I put on you to,how are you feeling?
Why are you feeling that way?
Are you feeling the right thing?
No, I don't think you'refeeling that.
I think you're feeling this.
All of that equated into awhole lot of pressure that made
it real easy for you to thenfeel like that was confrontation
(21:44):
, right.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Yeah, well, pressure feels like confrontation.
So, as the spouse of someonewho's struggling with learning
how to share feelings, if Icould speak to that spouse I
would say be patient, be patient, yeah, be patient, and if this
is a scary process to you orthis is just something you're
unfamiliar with, you also justneed to be diligent and
(22:07):
constantly ask yourself what isthis emotion that I'm feeling?
Can I be more specific thanhappy, angry or sad?
And can I learn then how tocommunicate that with my spouse
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:21):
So what are things that you did that helped you get
there?
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Well, I think part of it is.
You know, I started askingmyself those kinds of questions
and asking myself that even whenI'm telling you, especially
when I'm just telling you thedetails of my day, yeah, so a
conversation probably everycouple has in the evening or
after a long day is how was yourday?
(22:45):
How was your day and then wetalk about, we tell each other
the stories about what happenedduring the day, we tell the
facts of the day.
But you're right, we tell thefacts at least, especially I'll
speak for myself and probablymost men.
We tell the facts of the day.
But I had to push myself to bea little bit more, go a little
bit more in depth, ask myselfand then be able to describe to
(23:06):
my spouse.
How did that make me feel, yeah, can I be more specific?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
And when you started doing that I felt like it opened
up a whole world to now.
I am learning so much moreabout you and knowing you.
You know I didn't franklyreally care about the facts of
the day.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
You didn't care how many surgeries I did or how many
patients I saw.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right about the facts of the day.
You didn't care how manysurgeries I did or how many
patients I saw, right, but Icared about how that made you
feel, because that's your heartand that's where I learn who you
are.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, and that's because sharing with you the
facts of the day only helps meshare myself so much.
But if I can tell you thatthose events made me stressed or
anxious, or they made me feelfulfilled and accomplished, or
proud or whatever it was, thatis sharing the realness of who
we actually are.
That's getting below thesurface and getting to something
(23:58):
much more meaningful.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Now a tool that we started using in our marriage
and then we kind of furtherdeveloped it into something that
you guys can use.
Previously we called this thedaily check-in.
We renamed it a little bitnicer name to covenant
conversations.
You can hear all about this inepisode 154, but this was a tool
(24:23):
that really helped us practicethis skill.
It's a guided conversation,takes less than 20 minutes and
it was a way, a structured way,in which we could like apply
this every day.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
It's a structured way and it helps you turn this into
a ritual, something that you'redoing regularly and that you
can learn how to value andcherish.
But again, the value, I think,is in that it is structured.
There is a framework in whichto have this conversation, where
we go from having conversationand building mental intimacy it
(24:59):
builds emotional and spiritualintimacy and even physical
intimacy.
So it's a great way to helplearn this skill.
And then one tool that you canwrap into this covenant
conversation is something calledan emotion wheel.
This was not created by us, butwe have adapted it for this use
(25:21):
.
It is a way to look atsometimes for some of us who
think about emotion very simply.
Look at sometimes, for some ofus who think about emotion very
simply, in the center of thiswheel are the eight basic
emotions and then, fanning outfrom those eight basic emotions,
are nuances of those emotions,and it helps you really dig down
to something deeper than justsad.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And I remember when we first discovered this and
again, we didn't create it, butit was a big breakthrough for us
I remember looking at all thosenuanced emotions and I could
immediately come up with a time,a place.
I could connect that word to animmediate feeling.
And I remember being shocked,shocked that you would look at
(26:08):
these words and be like, okay,I'm working, let me think about
this, you know, and seeing thecenter of that wheel and the
basic emotions and being likethat's where you're at, like
goodness, I am way out here andyou're just in that little
center.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah, there were words on that wheel that I would
have never thought to use,about how I felt about something
.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
So if you're wondering, wow this emotion
wheel sounds like a great tool.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Well, if you send me an email, I will be happy to
send you a copy of the emotionwheel, but if you join Patreon,
you will have access to thisresource, as well as a number of
other resources, for free,forever.
You have access to that.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Patreon is a way for you to financially support us in
as little as $5 a month lessthan a cup of coffee but it's a
way that you can help support usand the work that we do here on
the podcast, and so in return,we'll give you some resources.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yes, so that's one of several that are available
there, and we'd be happy to haveyou join us.
Patreoncom slash intimatecovenant.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
All right, let's get to our second email and it says
if you haven't been completelyvulnerable with a spouse before
and you may have some quoteskeletons how do you initiate
that conversation with them?
So this is a good one.
This is somebody who recognizesthere are some difficult
(27:39):
conversations ahead, that theyseem to need to have.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
And how do you do that?
They've been withholding that.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
First of all, good job.
Good job for being at a placewhere you say I want more, I
want a deeper connection.
I don't want this to be betweenus.
I mean, that's the pursuit ofoneness, right?
So whoever sent this in to usjust know that we're here
cheering for you.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Because we're proud of you for asking this question.
Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
This is a big step in a lot of relationships and it's
a big question, and I would sayfor us to be able to answer
this question completely, itreally is highly dependent on
your individual situation.
It's dependent on the maturityof your marriage.
It is dependent on the natureof what you have to confess.
(28:28):
Yeah, your marriage it isdependent on the nature of what
you have to confess.
And I would just caution here,before we get too far into this,
that many conversations likethis should absolutely be guided
by a trained therapist or, atthe very least, a very wise and
godly mentor.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, and we did an episode about this way back at
the beginning.
So go all the way back toepisode 34 for maybe some more
details on how to go abouthaving those really difficult
conversations.
I do think that this emailer isusing the phrase skeletons.
(29:06):
That tends to be a phrase thatwe use when we're talking about
sexual pasts, and so it's likelynot always, but likely that
that's kind of where this isleading, and yet that's a really
hard conversation.
It can bring up a lot ofemotions on both sides.
(29:26):
So again, that might be a placewhere you recognize there needs
to be a third party to helpnavigate some or all of this
kind of conversation.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah, absolutely, but I think that's true just
generally, that the more we knowabout each other, the more that
(29:59):
we are open and transparentwith one another, the more we
can become one, and if there arebarriers between you, then
those barriers need to beremoved and that distance needs
to be healed.
In James 5.16, james is veryclear that healing begins with
(30:21):
confession, and so confession isessential and really, if you
just want to get really down andbasic with this, confession
just simply means to tell thetruth.
Yeah, so telling the truthJesus says the truth will set
you free right.
Telling the truth is essentialin a covenant relationship like
(30:44):
this.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And if you want true intimacy, if you want that level
of knowing and being known, youhave to reveal yourself.
I mean, just like the previousemail and questioner, if you're
not revealing who you are, ifyou're not sharing your feelings
, if you're not sharing thefullness of who you are, even
(31:09):
the parts that you're ashamed of, you're not going to have the
level of intimacy that I thinkGod intended, that scriptures
proclaim.
That is what God intended forour marriages.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Naked and unashamed.
That's how he defines thatfirst ideal marriage
relationship.
And if there is something thatyou're not willing to confess,
if there is something thatyou're not willing to confess,
then there is something thatyour spouse cannot know.
And you can only be known asmuch as you're willing to tell
the truth about yourself.
Your intimacy is only as deepas your honesty.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
That statement kind of hurts a little bit If you're
in a place of holding back thatyour intimacy is only as deep as
your honesty.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
And I think the corollary to that is that you
can only be loved as much as youare willing to reveal.
Your spouse can only love whatthey know about you.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Right, and you know, and not that every part of us is
lovable, but there is real lovethat comes from knowing not
just the beautiful parts but thereal, authentic, sometimes ugly
parts as well.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I would contend that in this life, the greatest gift
that you will ever have is to beloved for who you really are.
That's true no matter whatrelationship we're talking about
.
I mean, it's true.
Your kids will love you as aparent in spite of all the times
that you mess things up forthem.
Your friends will often loveyou in spite of all the flaws
(32:49):
that they see in you.
But in the most intimate andmost, the closest relationship
that you have in this life ismarriage.
It's the only one that'scovenantally bound to another
person.
To be loved by that person, whoknows you the most deeply, is
(33:10):
the most and the greatest giftthat you will have in this life,
other than, of course, theblessing of God.
But guess what?
The blessing that comes fromGod is to be loved by Him in
spite of who we are.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I mean, yeah, that's the love that he offers us and
that's the love that he calls usto in marriage, because our
marriages are a metaphor of hislove for us.
And so, like you said earlier,it's all about the pursuit of
being naked and not ashamed withone another.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
So, in all of our relationships, but in particular
in the marriage relationship,god calls us to confession in
part, so that we will own it inpart, so that we will
acknowledge where we have fallenshort, that we will acknowledge
where it's our fault, where wewill acknowledge where we have
betrayed our spouse.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Yeah, we can be tempted to think that I don't
really need to confess, I justneed to do better, or I'll have
that in my closet, my skeleton.
But as long as I don't ever dothat again, or as long as I'm a
different person than that,that's good enough.
But it's ultimately theconfession, the owning it, the
(34:28):
taking it out, if you will, andlooking at it and owning it,
that confession is what willstrengthen the relationship
between two covenantly boundpeople, if they know how to
handle the confession correctly,if they know how to use that
confession to deepen thatcovenant and that connection
(34:51):
with one another.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
If both of us are willing to confront that truth,
as ugly as it might be, but ifwe're willing to confront that
truth with humility and graceand love from both sides, then
that confession becomes a placethat you didn't know before.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Now that's a knowledge that comes with pain,
certainly, but it is alsoknowledge that you didn't have
before, and so you have torecognize the beauty even within
that.
And so how do you get there?
(35:30):
How do you share in this kindof way?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Well, I think for this person who's trying to
gather, trying to figure out howto go about and start this
conversation, I think somethingprimary that this person needs
to understand is you mustconfess and come clean entirely
the first time.
If you try to spread this outor if you think, well, my spouse
(35:57):
can only handle this much andyou don't share the whole story,
you are ultimately going to bedoing more damage.
If you don't tell the wholetruth the first time, if you try
to reveal this in pieces, it'snot going to go well.
You're going to actually erodeyour spouse's trust rather than
(36:18):
build it.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
And within coming clean.
I think it's also imperativethat you take responsibility for
your past.
So it may be that your spousedidn't know about these
skeletons, but I can guaranteethat those have caused a barrier
in your marriage, and so youhave to own that.
You have to own that you havekept back a part of yourself
(36:42):
from your spouse and, whether ornot they knew that beforehand
them learning that highlightsthat barrier within your
marriage, and so you have totake your part of the barrier
that that has caused in yourmarital intimacy, and I don't
just mean sexually, I meanthat's emotionally too.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, even if this is a sexual sin again, whether
that sin happened before youwere married or after you were
married, even if it's a sexualsin, it's going to impact all of
the other ways in which you areintimate.
It's going to affect youremotional intimacy.
It's going to have placedbarriers between you spiritually
(37:25):
.
So you have to own that, youhave to take responsibility for
that and you also have to have aplan for making sure that that
kind of thing never happensagain.
That's what you need to bringto your spouse Come clean and
take responsibility for not onlyrepenting and confessing of
(37:45):
what's gone on in the past, butalso repenting and making your
life different now, today, andcommitting to being fully open
and honest with your spouse.
Now, when you do that, to beclear, when you do that, your
spouse is going to be hurt.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Now lots of people want to ask this question how
can I tell my spouse somethingand then not get upset about it?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
How can I control their reaction to what I'm about
to say?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
You can't, ain't going to say you can't, ain't
gonna happen.
No.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
You can't, and so your spouse will be hurt.
I mean, in part, that's becauseyou've betrayed your covenant,
you have not been fully known,and so it will be hard.
But if you want to overcome theguilt and the intimacy issues
that come with having a sexualpast, you have to eliminate the
(38:41):
secrets, and so if your skeletoninvolves a sexual sin, the only
way you're going to overcomethat guilt, the only way you're
going to overcome the barrierthat that is, is by eliminating
the secret.
So just because it's going tohurt your spouse doesn't mean,
(39:01):
therefore, you shouldn't tellthem.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
Right Now.
The other part of this is youalso have to let your speech be
seasoned with salt.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
Your speech should be gracious and seasoned with salt
, and I think this is a vital,vital part of this conversation.
Right, you need to share basicfacts.
I mean, some things simplywould not be loving to share.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, if, for example , if we're confessing some
sexual betrayal, your spouseneeds to know that that happened
and your spouse needs to know,probably, who it happened with.
They don't need to know theroom number of the hotel room
that you used, they don't needto know what color the sheets
were or whatever else might havehappened, but they do need to
(39:46):
know the basic facts.
Some details are just not goingto be loving to share, right
Ephesians 4.15, speak the truthin love.
So the raw details of pastindiscretions, the raw details
of these kinds of traumas, arenot all loving.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And that's where, again, a trained professional
might be who needs to help guideyou through this.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yep.
Now I would say, if you are theone confessing, you should be
willing and be prepared to tellyour spouse as much as they want
to know.
You should be willing and readyto answer any question that
they have, because they need toknow that you're not keeping
secrets.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
And you also need to not be keeping secrets.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Right, if you're the spouse that it's being told, to
stop and recognize that certaindetails of who, what, when,
(40:52):
where, how, those all mightactually create a foothold for
jealousy and anger.
They will plant mental imagesthat might haunt your mind and
your heart for years to comeyour mind and your heart for
years to come.
So you need to recognize thatyou don't actually maybe want to
know all of those kind ofdetails and again, that's where
we would advise if that's thelevel of skeletons, then seek
the help.
(41:12):
To help guide this conversation, yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
A trained mentor or a counselor can help both of you
understand what might be helpfulto share and what is probably
not going to be helpful to share.
They can help guide thatconversation and help you both
understand where those limitsneed to be, based on your
individual circumstances.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And so then, once those skeletons have been
revealed, now you know eachother in a way that you didn't
know before, and that, then, isa place for you to forgive
yourself and for both of you toforgive each other fully.
You've got to state it to eachother specifically, You've got
(42:00):
to find the freedom from thatsin and that shame.
I mean again, we're imploringyou to get rid of the skeletons.
It might be painful, it will bepainful, but there is so much
joy on the other side, andthat's what God calls you to.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
Yes, because then you both have an opportunity to
rebuild something from the ashesof that confession.
You can now build somethingthat is free of barriers, and
you can have an opportunity thento build greater trust with one
another, greater depth ofintimacy, greater depth of
knowing each other.
(42:39):
You can understand each otherbetter.
There is a place, then, to beable to celebrate and to expand
this new level of intimacy thatyou have created by confession.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
And that doesn't happen overnight.
We're not trying to make thissound like a completely simple
process, but we are calling youto begin.
Begin this journey.
Get rid of those barriersbetween you.
Be naked and not ashamed, right?
Speaker 1 (43:08):
All right, matt, give us our wrap-up can be a
difficult conversation for some,and this is a skill which will
require some intentionalpractice.
Vulnerability is the heart ofintimate relationships, and
revealing the fullness ofyourself is the only way to be
(43:29):
loved for who you really are.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Now it's time to grab your spouse and your Bible and
head to your kitchen table, havethe conversation about
difficult conversations.
What are you going to do tolean into conversations that
make you want to run and hide?
Speaker 1 (43:47):
We would love to hear your feedback.
Contact us by emailing podcastat intimatecovenantcom or to
submit anonymous feedback andquestions, go to
intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and your support.
Thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at Patreoncom.
Slash.
Intimate Covenant has blessedyour marriage.
(44:19):
We'd love to have you join ustoo.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
And please support our affiliate businesses who
help support Intimate CovenantLinks, and exclusive discount
codes to these marriage-centeredbusinesses are now in the show
notes and until next time, keepstriving and don't settle.
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