April 14, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode, Matt & Jenn tackle the concept of "organic sex" and whether truly spontaneous intimacy is even possible in a long-term marriage. The myth that good sex should just naturally happen without planning or effort has damaged many marriages and created unrealistic expectations.
• Sex is natural but not naturally perfect - it requires intentional cultivation
• Many couples believe the Hollywood myth that passionate encounters should happen effortlessly
• The best sex flows from creating space for connection across all dimensions of intimacy
• Physical intimacy is not separate from emotional, spiritual, and intellectual connection
• Seemingly "spontaneous" encounters are actually built on intentional groundwork
• Great sex isn't about spontaneity but about co-creating an environment where intimacy flourishes
• Most of what builds great sex happens outside the bedroom through everyday connection
• When couples focus on building multi-level intimacy, sex becomes a natural byproduct
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Cherishing,
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Jen want to talk about organic sex.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
We are not recommending sex in the produce
aisle Great.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Today we're going to answer a listener question about
whether the best sex isspontaneous, natural and organic
.
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome, we're Matt and Jen and this is the Intimate
Covenant Podcast.
Welcome, friends, welcome.
We're Matt and Jen, and this isthe Intimate Covenant.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Podcast, where we believe the Bible and great
married sex both belong on yourkitchen table.
That's right.
We're talking about godlymarriage with hot sex and
emotionally fulfilling oneness,and thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thanks.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, you can check out our
website at IntimateCovenantcom,and we'd always love to hear
from you.
You can email us at podcast atIntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
In fact, today we're answering a listener question
from a listener actually inCanada.
Did you know that we'reinternational?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I believe I did know that since we went to China last
year.
Remember that.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, good point, good point.
Always good to hear from folksoutside of our own national
boundaries.
Yeah, but we did get an emailfrom a listener in Canada and
we're going to read that emailand dig in in just a minute.
But the question, as we alludedto in the opener, is it centers
around a very common conflict,that conflict between
(01:29):
spontaneous and intentional sex.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, wanting to know which is better, which is the
ideal.
Can we have both?
Is there such thing asspontaneous sex?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So we'll get into that with those leading
questions that Jen has asked.
But before we get too far intothis episode, we wanted to first
acknowledge that, hey, it'sbeen a while.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yes, it has been a while.
As we said in what was our lastepisode, we had no idea that we
were going to end up with quitethe break we did.
But in January early January Iended up with an emergency
surgery.
All went well and I'm making afull recovery.
But that recovery was harderthan we expected.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It definitely threw us sideways for a bit, maybe
even backwards for a bit.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Recovery was a little more involved than I think you
were expecting, yeah yeah, noone's ready for emergency
surgery, especially not at thebeginning of the year.
That knocks out your entiremonth of January and February.
So it was fun.
But then after that we did havesome fun.
We had an amazing family trip.
It was kind of our big lasthurrah.
(02:47):
If you know us, you know ourfamily, you know that our
youngest is a senior in highschool.
We had two kiddos that justgraduated or are about to
graduate from college, Lots andlots of things to celebrate, and
so we took a really amazingtrip, but that occupied a lot of
(03:08):
time.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Pete, it did.
That was a little bit of adistraction from the podcast, if
you will.
And then, of course, on top ofthat, we're dealing with the
spring semester of our youngestdaughter's senior year.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
There is just anything and everything you can
imagine goes into that senioryear last semester, all the last
, all the big things which arefun, but you know we really
wanted to be present for all ofthat, so that's taken a lot of
time.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And then, probably the biggest detractor has been
some drama.
I guess is maybe a kind way ofputting it, that's a good way to
put it and maybe we'll get intothat a little bit later in the
episode, but we just wanted toacknowledge it has been a while
it has been.
We're sorry those of you thatare Intimate Covenant podcast
(03:59):
pursuers this is it's not arejection of you.
This is it's not a rejection ofyou.
This is uh, just uh, we've hadsome things taking our time and
we just uh, had to prioritizethose things.
But uh, we're back, we are, wehave every intention of staying
back.
Yeah, so hopefully this is more, uh, more of more to come
(04:19):
that's right.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So while we were away , big thing that happened is our
registration for this year'sannual retreat opened.
It opened on February 14th,like it does every year, and so
at this recording, we are rightat the halfway mark for being
full.
We can take about 52-ishcouples.
(04:44):
Sometimes we have a littleleeway there, but we're almost
halfway full.
So if coming to this year'sretreat is something that you
want to make sure and be a partof, you need to start signing up
.
Sign up soon.
All it takes is a $200 depositto save your spot, and we're
(05:05):
really looking forward to it.
This year's retreat isSeptember 18th through the 20th
that's right Going to be at thesame location, right outside of
the Woodlands, texas, here inour neck of the woods, and we
would love to have you join us.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yes, very much so.
We'd love to have you with us.
We have already a mix of someretreat veterans and some
newbies already, yeah, so it'salways fun to see some of the
new names come across.
But, yes, we are very excited.
The theme this year is ONE,just simply ONE, one.
(05:41):
We'll talk more about what thatmeans.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I guess we should say O-N-E-1, not W-O-N.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh, okay, yes, it's not a competition, not a victory
.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Maybe I'll treat your marriages like it's competition
.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It could be yes, but it is one, and we're going to
talk more about what that means,what that looks like, maybe
give you guys a little bit of asneak peek in maybe a future
episode here coming up.
But let's get into today'stopic.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And so this, as you alluded to Matt, this is from a
listener, from an email wereceived from a listener.
It's from a husband and he'sbeen married 17 years, and I'll
let you do the reading Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So with that context, here's what he wrote us.
He said your podcast has been agame changer for me.
It really helped me identifyand focus on my shortcomings and
how I've contributed to ourintimacy problems.
Well, first of all, thank youfor that compliment.
Good job, appreciate that andappreciate you for digging into
your own issues and your side ofthe equation.
(06:45):
He goes on to say a littlebackstory before my question.
When we got married, on ourwedding night we didn't have sex
.
We kissed and started to headthat way, but she was super
stressed and not feeling it, sowe stopped and waited until the
following night.
Once we had arrived at ourdestination for our honeymoon, I
was disappointed, but it wasn'tthe end of the world for me.
(07:05):
While we were on our honeymoon,things went okay.
We had sex and took timefiguring out this new thing for
us.
While I, being the high drivepursuer, would have liked more,
it wasn't alarming.
Once we got back from thehoneymoon, that changed.
The frequency tapered and overthe years became probably six to
seven times a year andsometimes went as long as a year
(07:27):
without as I would stoppursuing because the pain of
rejection was overwhelming.
Unfortunately, even these fewnumber of times, I felt like it
was mercy sex and I hated it.
It wasn't what I wanted.
I want her and the connection.
This past month I came to apoint where something had to
change.
I talked to her.
(07:47):
I went hard after resources tohelp me figure out what was
happening books, podcasts,webinars, courses, etc.
And we've had some good, hardconversations and made some
progress.
And this leads me to myquestion.
During one of those hardquestions, she brought up our
wedding night and how she feltmy disappointment that night.
(08:07):
Since that night, she told methat sex has always felt like a
duty to her and that she hasnever felt quote organic sex.
I asked her to help meunderstand what organic sex was
to her.
What I heard her say was thatit was natural sex that just
occurs, it's not planned for,there's no expectation it will
happen, we don't talk about itbefore and schedule it, etc.
(08:30):
While you hear her heart andthat desire and absolutely never
want her to feel pressured orlike sex is a duty.
I don't really understand thisconcept of organic, natural sex
that just occurs, of organic,natural sex that just occurs.
My question is is truly organicsex?
Even a thing?
It seems like sex that's trulyintimate and emotionally and
(08:56):
spiritually connecting, isintentional and takes work,
something we learn together overtime and that won't just happen
on its own.
So how can something like thattruly be organic, especially in
context of a busy life andmarriage where we both work
full-time, have two kids that wehomeschool, dance, karate, etc.
Hopefully you can shed somelight or insight on this for me
(09:17):
to better change my heart andguide our marriage and her in
this area.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Thank you, and her in this area.
Thank you, Wow.
There's a lot to unpack here.
First of all, listener, thankyou so much for sending in this
question.
Thank you for trusting us to bea resource in your pursuit of
better understanding yourmarriage.
Just a little side note we takethat seriously.
When you all email us, thatmeans a lot to us, and so thank
(09:45):
you, Thank you for reaching outto us, and you can be assured
that if you have a question,while the details might be
different than somebody else'sdetails, someone has this same
question.
We know this because this is aquestion that we have heard in
many other settings live eventsand things like that.
So you're not alone, and thankyou very much for taking the
(10:09):
time to send this in, becauseit's a great question.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, and we appreciate the vulnerability and
the context of the question,because I think the context of
this question in particularbrings up a lot of kind of side
points that are not in the meatof this question.
So what's the print?
Yeah, there's a lot ofdirections we could go with this
.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So we're going to try to kind of hone in on just that
one main question.
But I do think it's somethingto recognize that this is a
17-year marriage, where he issaying that sex right now and it
sounds like for a while withinthis marriage, has been
happening six to seven times peryear, sometimes even just.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Pete Sometimes far less than that.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Kirsten Far less than that just yearly.
So I think it's important forus to share with you that this
is what many experts, or theexpert standard, would
categorize as a sexless marriage.
Pete.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Right, even though sex is happening, it's not
happening with enough frequencyto be an indicator of health in
this relationship, and so sexdoes not make a marriage and
vice versa.
But when sex is happening thisinfrequently, it is a sign that
there is likely some verydeep-seated problems in this
(11:34):
relationship and, as such,there's probably more to this
relationship and theserelational problems than just
the sex piece.
Right, it's unlikely that thisis a thriving, harmonious
marriage in every respect,except in the bedroom.
Right Now I don't know thesefolks, nope, and we don't know
anything more than what has beenshared in this email.
(11:55):
But that is at least a red flag, especially if you are dealing
with a professional relationshiptherapist or counselor.
I think they would handle thisas a challenging and a
devitalized kind of relationship.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I don't say that to scare the person who wrote this,
but to say to you obviouslywe're not going to be able to
give you the full depth that youneed in order to really even
dig into the depth of thisproblem in this one podcast
episode.
So we would highly highlyrecommend that you seek
(12:38):
professional counseling, becauseI think there is a lot to
unpack there and I think that isreally going to be.
We are big proponents ofprofessional counseling.
I mean, we would always adviseyou to find a professional
counselor that is faith-based,that has the same perspective
that you have.
I think that is very important,but I do think that this is a
(13:01):
case where some professionalcounseling is warranted.
But overall, I mean, within allof the complexity of that, I
think there is a good questionin there that is a good question
for us to consider and that isis truly organic sex, even a
thing?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I love how he words it.
Yeah, I love how he words it.
(13:52):
And again, I think this is aquestion regardless of the
affection, that sex is justgoing to happen naturally and
it's going to be beautiful andit's going to be perfect and
there's never going to be anytrouble.
And we shouldn't.
It's a gift from God, we'retold right, so we shouldn't have
to work for it, or so we think.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Or so we think that's right, but the truth is nothing
happens organically orspontaneously.
There must be preparation,there must be intentionality.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, I mean, even if you are a physicist or a
scientifically-minded person,you recognize that if you just
let things go….
Speaker 2 (14:33):
What direction do they go?
Do they get better or do theyget worse?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Does the state of your household get better
without any intentionality, orworse?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yes, yes, if you have any little people in your house
, you know what direction thatgoes?
Or if you just have a husband,sorry.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
If you just look at my desk, you would realize what
happens when there is nointentionality involved.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
But isn't it interesting that many of us do
have this mindset, that we canunderstand that in so many
realms of our life, and yet wethink that sex doesn't fit into
that same, you know, way ofbeing?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
We don't even apply this rule to any other kind of
our intimacy.
We don't expect that ourspiritual intimacy is going to
get better if we don't put anywork into it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Or that I'm going to know you better if we don't have
any conversation.
Yeah, it's such a it's justsuch a Satan's good at
perpetrating this lie by usingHollywood by using romance
(15:56):
novels and we look in thosestories and we see two people
that just fall head over heelsin love and then have this magic
love scene and everything isjust great and everybody's happy
and everybody's pleasured.
And it just happened.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Oh yeah, I mean, this lie is even started.
We started indoctrinating ourlittle girls with this lie from
the very first Disney princessmovies that they see.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh, here you go getting on your Disney soapbox.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I mean like two people who've never met before
just randomly fall in love withone glance, not even a
conversation.
They fall in love with a simpleglance and then it all just
works out magically andeverybody's in love by the end.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Well, and we believe you know again what's Satan done
in our society.
What's Satan done in oursociety?
He's told us that the best sexis happening in the one-night
hookups where two people don'tknow each other at all.
But it's organic, it's bodies,it's hormones, it's chemistry,
it's physical connection and itjust happens.
(17:05):
Well, can sex feel good justphysically?
Well, sure it can, but I wouldchallenge is that really good
sex?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Right and I think that's part of the lie is that
the best sex is happening withpeople who don't even know each
other.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And it's just again part of the lie, part of the
problem, part of themisconception and part of the
expectations sometimes that wego into a relationship with.
Now I'm not accusing, I'm notsaying this wife came into this
relationship with all of theseexpectations.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I think we're saying, like many of us recognize we
had those kind of similarexpectations or lies stuck in
our head.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But I love what sex therapist Martha Kalpe says
about this.
She says sex is perfectlynatural, but it's not naturally
perfect.
In other words, sex is anatural thing and it's a
beautiful thing and it'ssupposed to happen, is a natural
(18:10):
thing and it's a beautifulthing and it's supposed to
happen.
We are intended for it, we aredesigned for it and marriage
relationship is the best placefor it.
But just because it's naturaland, in our way of thinking,
just because it's given by Godand to be part of this natural
process by which men and womenare united in this covenant of
(18:35):
marriage, just because it'snatural doesn't mean that it
happens naturally without anyeffort.
It's not perfected just on itsown.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Now, can there be times in your marriage where sex
feels spontaneous?
Yeah, but I would say thosetimes it's not actually
spontaneous.
You have laid a groundwork tothen make it a natural extension
of the intimacy that you havebeen busy creating.
(19:06):
I mean, we often think, likeyou know a vacation.
We often think, like you know,a vacation, a beautiful resort,
zero stress.
I didn't have to do a thing toworry about what we were eating.
Today We'll picture this as anall-inclusive resort, right?
No decisions needed to be madeand I spend the day totally
(19:32):
relaxed.
And then that leads into anamazing connection with my
beloved.
In that circumstance, sex feelsspontaneous right, pete.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, it does feel organic.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Kirsten, it does feel organic, but how did you get to
that resort?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Pete, yeah, there was a lot of planning.
I mean, maybe even awatered-down version of this is
date night and physical touchand connection, all of that when
that naturally then leads tobeautiful lovemaking at the end
(20:16):
of your date night.
Yes, that feels organic and itfeels natural and it feels
almost spontaneous.
But was it Only to the extentthat you put in quite a bit of
intentionality and preparationand you worked to build and
continue that intimacythroughout that evening?
It is a natural extension ofthe work that you have already
(20:41):
created, right.
So I think I would suggest toboth this husband and wife
because it has to fall on bothto build this.
You each have to be laying thegroundwork for sex to happen in
the time and the preparation,and you can set aside a time
where we can devote to buildingintimacy together.
(21:04):
If it feels too pressuring tosay that sex is necessarily
going to happen out from thisdate night or whatever it might
be, maybe that's too muchpressure for this moment, but it
doesn't have to be.
If we can set aside time forintimacy and relationship
building and physical closeness,sex can quote, organically grow
(21:29):
from that.
But it's not that we're notputting any effort into it, it's
not that it just happens byitself.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And I think this gets to the idea.
Actually, here we'll plug theretreat this year.
Here we go.
We tend to think of ourrelationship in these little
self-contained boxes and we putsex in its own little box, right
, and we act like we can take itor leave it and it doesn't
affect the rest of arelationship or it doesn't have
(21:57):
anything to do with the rest ofa relationship.
And, frankly, nothing could befarther from the truth, because
we, our marriages, are designedto have many different levels
and places in which we should beconnecting with one another,
seeking intimacy with oneanother.
We like to talk about it and Ithink the Bible actually is who
(22:18):
talks about it this way thatthere is, yes, there's physical
intimacy, but there's alsoemotional intimacy, there's
mental intimacy, there'sspiritual intimacy.
This year's retreat is built onhow do we maximize all levels
of connection and how do webecome one in all areas of
(22:41):
intimacy.
So how does sex feel?
How do you get to a place wheresex feels organic?
Well, you get there when yourecognize the connection that
all those levels of intimacyplay with one another.
And so, when we are emotionallyconnected with one another,
(23:02):
physical intimacy is a byproduct.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, I would suggest , if this wife feels like sex is
an obligation or that it's nothappening organically in her
words, that suggests to me thatthere is not enough intimacy in
the fullness of thisrelationship.
Otherwise, sex would be abyproduct Now, because if
(23:26):
there's pressure, if there'sobligation, if there's this duty
to have sex, if that is thefeeling, there is never going to
be any passion associated withthat.
So this husband, this couple,husband and wife, really have no
hope for there being passionate, organic sex, unless if there
(23:47):
is pressure or obligation.
If there is pressure orobligation, either an assumed
pressure perhaps the wife isfeeling pressure that is maybe
not there, or she has pressureinternally, or pressure that is
being put upon her by thehusband, who is the pursuer in
this case, and I think thatopens up a whole other dimension
(24:09):
of this conversation.
But this wife, it sounds like,had some pretty when it came to
the honeymoon.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Now, I'm not blaming her, I'm not trying to say
anything against her, but Iwould think that that's a red
flag, a clear sign at least,that she was entering into this
marriage with some, at the veryleast, poor understanding of the
beauty of married sex.
And maybe this is just a callto all of us who are married do
(24:58):
a better job, do a better job ofhelping brides see the beauty
of married sex, the connectionthat should be coming from that.
Not viewing it as an obligationno, I would love that's another
that not viewing it as anobligation.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
No, I would love you're right, but I would love
to know that every young brideand or groom are getting good
quality preparation for thispart of their relationship.
It's a place where I think thechurch has failed and we've had
these conversations in priorepisodes as well and other
events but it's a place wherethe church has failed in giving
(25:35):
our young people well, maybe notall young our newly married
people the tools they need tonavigate this complicated part
of their relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Well, because you see , like I mean he is, he's going
off, this is 17 years into theirmarriage.
Like I mean he's going off,this is 17 years into their
marriage and he goes back tonight one.
That just shows us the power.
Frankly, that's within nightone.
Now I don't say that to putmore pressure on that first
night, but it does show that shehad some anxiety from the
(26:09):
beginning.
Maybe they both did.
I mean, I don't know whatactually happened in that
bedroom, but clearly that's kindof where this began.
And so she has associated itsounds like for the vast
majority of her marriage she'sassociated sex with duty and
(26:30):
therefore an obligation andtherefore a place of anxiety.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, it sounds like she wasn't.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
She can't hope to have a passionate experience
surrounded by all of that.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
It sounds like she wasn't prepared to know how to
find the joy and the pleasure insex for herself.
Yeah, pleasure in sex forherself, it was.
She made it to be a duty forher husband and is waiting for
this magical time when she mightenjoy it herself, rather than
knowing how to be, to prepareherself, her mind, her spirit,
(27:04):
her body, how to prepare herselfto be able to receive the joy
from this.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Right, and so I would say, I mean again I think this
is a place where, if this isyour story, if this is your
spouse's story, that's a placewhere some therapy is needed,
some coaching, some mentorship.
If you can identify that therehas always been anxiety in your
(27:29):
marriage regarding sex, thatdefinitely has a place where
some unpacking needs to be done.
Where is that coming from?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Pete, absolutely Particularly.
If this is not something thatyou a hurdle that you have not
been able to get past in thefirst few months of your
relationship, if there's stillanxiety about sex, if there's
still a resentment or evenreservations about having sex,
that it's not enjoyable sex.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And I think that's important for wives to hear.
We have this misconception thatI just need to do my wifely
duty because all it is isphysical to him too.
He's just looking for a release.
He's looking for my physicalbody and I'll just show up in my
body, get it over with and wecan move on with our life.
(28:38):
But that's not what a godlyhusband wants for sure.
That's clearly not what thisman wants and he's mourning the
fact that he doesn't.
What we call that mercy sexwhen one partner just shows up
just to simply check it off, theto-do list just offers nothing
(29:01):
but a physical connection.
That's mercy sex.
That is not connection.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Pete, no, it's not godly sex.
It's not building connection inyour marriage.
In fact, in many cases, as thisemailer suggested, it just is
simply building more and moreresentment for the both of you.
Neither of you is getting whatyou want out of this and I think
there is some onus here on thehusband for continuing to accept
(29:27):
mercy sex Again, if thisproblem had been addressed and
you know, hindsight is 20-20,.
This is not criticism of thishusband, because he's trying to
do the right thing today, whichis all I can ask, but I can
imagine that if this was aconversation that they had in
year one or month one of theirmarriage, they'd be in a
different place now.
(29:48):
If the husband had the wordsand the framework to address
this issue and to address thelack of connection in their sex
from the beginning, this couldhave been a very different
outcome 17 years later.
Again, that's perhaps on all ofus for not helping to prepare
(30:10):
married couples and giving themthe tools to even have these
conversations.
And some of this dynamic, I'msure, is compounded by even, in
some ways, the ways that thishusband may have been handling
rejection from the beginning,when he was not getting
(30:31):
responses to his overtures forsex.
How was he handling that?
Was he creating more tension?
Was he creating more pressure?
That's where pressure comesfrom in a lot of cases.
If this wife is feeling thepressure when she says no, then
that's a lot of times.
All she's going to be able tooffer then is mercy sex.
(30:53):
So there's a lot to thisdynamic.
We've addressed some of thatdynamic in previous episodes or
episodes like mercy sex and howto handle rejection.
So maybe something to go backto.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But Maybe kind of where we land.
This is what do we suggest.
How can we offer at leastsomething to help both this
listener and others that are inthe same kind of boat?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
relationship and in all sexual relationships, have
work to do in order to co-createa situation where intimacy is
being fostered in all the realmsof their relationship.
It's something that must beco-created, and it is not just
(31:45):
in the realm of what's happeningin the bedroom.
In fact, most of what buildsgreat sex is not happening in
the bedroom.
It is happening in all of thedaily life, right?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So when a couple comes to us and says we're not
having enough sex, our answer isnot well, just have more sex.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Right, that never helps.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
That doesn't help.
But the answer is look at theentirety of your marriage.
Start working on buildingintentionally building spiritual
intimacy, mental intimacy,emotional intimacy.
Be intentional about everyrealm of intimacy, physical
(32:26):
intimacy as well.
But just recognize that the wayto have more sex is not just to
act like this is just a sexproblem, because that's what you
don't want.
The answer is not just more sex.
The answer is how do we beconnected and fully intimate in
(32:48):
our marriage?
That's your goal.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes, and then sex becomes a natural byproduct.
It is the outflowing of thatintimacy and connection that we
are building in every sense Inour marriage.
That's your goal.
It still feels quote-unquoteorganic because it is flowing
(33:13):
out of this space that we havecreated.
When I create this space andreserve this space for the two
of us, when I reserve this spacefor time to share and to be
intimate and to be connected,when I build that space, create
that space, protect that space,then sex can happen in that
(33:35):
space and it feels quote unquotenatural and organic, if that's
kind of what you're looking for,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
So his question is is truly organic sex, even a thing
?
Yes and no?
Yes, it seems like sex that'struly intimate and emotionally
and spiritually connection isintentional and takes work Bingo
, yes, but so does sole focus ofyour marriage, but a beautiful
(34:21):
part of your, the wholeness ofyour marriage, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
And I think that's a goal for everybody, whether
you've been married 17 days or17 years, whether your marriage
and sex life are just off thecharts extraordinary or whether
it's something that you're stillworking on and building.
This is a great lesson for allof us that, yes, sex takes hard
(34:44):
work and we say that a lot andwe preach that a lot but it
doesn't have to feel like hardwork.
It doesn't have to feel likeit's something that we're just
scheduling on our to-do list andmaking it a to-do item.
It can feel natural when we'veput in the work and the
(35:05):
preparation to make it that way.
All right.
Well, before we end thisepisode, we just wanted to
acknowledge again that we misseda couple of months and we're
sorry.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Some of you have been reaching out to make sure that
we haven't fallen off the faceof the planet, we haven't been
kidnapped or worse.
We can assure you that we arestill here.
Aside from the health strugglesthat I mentioned, that
definitely knocked us for a loopat the beginning of our year,
we've kind of had an even biggersource of distraction.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, that primary distraction for us has come in
the form of some fairly intensecriticism, including attacks on
our character and attacks on ourjudgment that really are all
centered around the subjectmatter for this podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
We have heard and been told very loudly that some
people believe that it isinappropriate for Christians to
talk about sexual topics in apublic format.
To talk about sexual topics ina public format.
We've been told that that'sespecially true for leaders in
the church, that sex Christiansshould not be talking about sex.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Pete and some folks are just uncomfortable with this
concept and others believe thatthe podcast content is simply
outright sinful.
And while we acknowledge thatthe topics that we address in
this podcast are certainlypolarizing, we'll say, and
(36:51):
certainly these topics areuncomfortable for some and I'm
sure you wouldn't believe this,but they are even uncomfortable
for us sometimes.
These topics and this podcast,we believe provides an important
resource for married coupleswho love Jesus and who want to
love each other better.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, we have always said that the podcast is what it
is, first of all, because, fromthe very beginning, you all
begged us to do this podcast,but it is a place in which we
can discuss these sometimesuncomfortable conversations
(37:27):
through a private medium.
I'm not looking in your eyes,you're not looking in my eyes.
You're not sitting by your bestfriend, necessarily, unless you
choose to be so.
It is a format in which we canget more personal when it comes
to the married sex relationship,but it's some people have taken
(37:50):
that and I don't know the rightwords weaponized that.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's yeah, we'll leave it there.
This is not the time and theplace for all the details, but
we just want you to know we'veneeded some space and some time
to try to address some of theseconflicts directly and also then
deal with the fallout that wehave had to walk through.
(38:20):
We've really been forced torethink everything and
reconsider the consequences thatthis work and this podcast has
on ourselves, on our marriage,the consequences to our children
and the consequences to thework that we have to do even in
(38:44):
our own local church family.
Thank you for giving us sometime, some space to walk through
(39:06):
what has been some really hardmonths for us, and also from
many who are not close to thesituation but have heard about
everything and have reached outwith words of comfort and
support and life life-givingwords.
So many that have reached outand we have truly been touched
(39:27):
by their love.
But we really wanted to let allof you know about this for two
reasons.
One, we want to let you knowwe're not stopping this work,
including the podcast.
This is episode 173.
173, and 174 is coming up next.
(39:49):
So so we're not stopping.
We just needed time to dealwith the fallout and we thank
you for your patience.
Also, we just wanted to let youknow that we need your prayers
for comfort and for healing andfor the courage to get back up
(40:10):
and do what we know that we needto be doing, and so with that,
we need to be doing, and so,with that, we'll leave it there.
We appreciate you so very much.
For all of those of you wholisten, we know that you listen
because you reach out to us whenwe fail to get an episode out.
We know that you listen becauseyou've told us episode out.
(40:37):
We know that you listen becauseyou've told us.
So, whether that's one of youor a few of you, whether you are
in Canada or in the UnitedStates or anywhere else.
We thank you.
We're not celebrities by anymeans, but we do know that there
are a significant number of youthat appreciate this work that
we're doing, and so we just wantto let you know that we
(40:58):
appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for being a supportand an encouragement to us and,
most of all, thank you forproclaiming in your own
marriages the beauty ofconnection and oneness, as God
intended.
Now it's time to grab yourspouse and your Bible and head
to your kitchen table to have aconversation about how you can
(41:22):
create a better space for trulyconnected sex in your marriage.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
We'd love to hear your feedback about this episode
or any others.
Contact us by emailing podcastat intimatecovenantcom or to
submit anonymous feedback andquestions go to
intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by yoursupport and your encouragement.
We're truly humbled by yoursupport and your encouragement
and thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers from coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
(42:05):
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
And please support our affiliate businesses who
help support Intimate CovenantLinks, and exclusive discount
codes for thesemarriage-centered businesses are
in the show notes.
Until next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
Hey, Jen want to talk about organic sex.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
We are not recommending sex in the produce
aisle Great.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Today we're going to answer a listener question about
whether the best sex isspontaneous, natural and organic
.
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Welcome, we're Matt and Jen and this is the Intimate
Covenant Podcast.
Welcome, friends, welcome.
We're Matt and Jen, and this isthe Intimate Covenant.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Podcast, where we believe the Bible and great
married sex both belong on yourkitchen table.
That's right.
We're talking about godlymarriage with hot sex and
emotionally fulfilling oneness,and thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Thanks.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, you can check out our
website at IntimateCovenantcom,and we'd always love to hear
from you.
You can email us at podcast atIntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
In fact, today we're answering a listener question
from a listener actually inCanada.
Did you know that we'reinternational?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I believe I did know that since we went to China last
year.
Remember that.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Yes, good point, good point.
Always good to hear from folksoutside of our own national
boundaries.
Yeah, but we did get an emailfrom a listener in Canada and
we're going to read that emailand dig in in just a minute.
But the question, as we alludedto in the opener, is it centers
around a very common conflict,that conflict between
(01:29):
spontaneous and intentional sex.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, wanting to know which is better, which is the
ideal.
Can we have both?
Is there such thing asspontaneous sex?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So we'll get into that with those leading
questions that Jen has asked.
But before we get too far intothis episode, we wanted to first
acknowledge that, hey, it'sbeen a while.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yes, it has been a while.
As we said in what was our lastepisode, we had no idea that we
were going to end up with quitethe break we did.
But in January early January Iended up with an emergency
surgery.
All went well and I'm making afull recovery.
But that recovery was harderthan we expected.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
It definitely threw us sideways for a bit, maybe
even backwards for a bit.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Recovery was a little more involved than I think you
were expecting, yeah yeah, noone's ready for emergency
surgery, especially not at thebeginning of the year.
That knocks out your entiremonth of January and February.
So it was fun.
But then after that we did havesome fun.
We had an amazing family trip.
It was kind of our big lasthurrah.
(02:47):
If you know us, you know ourfamily, you know that our
youngest is a senior in highschool.
We had two kiddos that justgraduated or are about to
graduate from college, Lots andlots of things to celebrate, and
so we took a really amazingtrip, but that occupied a lot of
(03:08):
time.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Pete, it did.
That was a little bit of adistraction from the podcast, if
you will.
And then, of course, on top ofthat, we're dealing with the
spring semester of our youngestdaughter's senior year.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
There is just anything and everything you can
imagine goes into that senioryear last semester, all the last
, all the big things which arefun, but you know we really
wanted to be present for all ofthat, so that's taken a lot of
time.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
And then, probably the biggest detractor has been
some drama.
I guess is maybe a kind way ofputting it, that's a good way to
put it and maybe we'll get intothat a little bit later in the
episode, but we just wanted toacknowledge it has been a while
it has been.
We're sorry those of you thatare Intimate Covenant podcast
(03:59):
pursuers this is it's not arejection of you.
This is it's not a rejection ofyou.
This is uh, just uh, we've hadsome things taking our time and
we just uh, had to prioritizethose things.
But uh, we're back, we are, wehave every intention of staying
back.
Yeah, so hopefully this is more, uh, more of more to come
(04:19):
that's right.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
So while we were away , big thing that happened is our
registration for this year'sannual retreat opened.
It opened on February 14th,like it does every year, and so
at this recording, we are rightat the halfway mark for being
full.
We can take about 52-ishcouples.
(04:44):
Sometimes we have a littleleeway there, but we're almost
halfway full.
So if coming to this year'sretreat is something that you
want to make sure and be a partof, you need to start signing up
.
Sign up soon.
All it takes is a $200 depositto save your spot, and we're
(05:05):
really looking forward to it.
This year's retreat isSeptember 18th through the 20th
that's right Going to be at thesame location, right outside of
the Woodlands, texas, here inour neck of the woods, and we
would love to have you join us.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yes, very much so.
We'd love to have you with us.
We have already a mix of someretreat veterans and some
newbies already, yeah, so it'salways fun to see some of the
new names come across.
But, yes, we are very excited.
The theme this year is ONE,just simply ONE, one.
(05:41):
We'll talk more about what thatmeans.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
I guess we should say O-N-E-1, not W-O-N.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Oh, okay, yes, it's not a competition, not a victory
.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Maybe I'll treat your marriages like it's competition
.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
It could be yes, but it is one, and we're going to
talk more about what that means,what that looks like, maybe
give you guys a little bit of asneak peek in maybe a future
episode here coming up.
But let's get into today'stopic.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
And so this, as you alluded to Matt, this is from a
listener, from an email wereceived from a listener.
It's from a husband and he'sbeen married 17 years, and I'll
let you do the reading Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
So with that context, here's what he wrote us.
He said your podcast has been agame changer for me.
It really helped me identifyand focus on my shortcomings and
how I've contributed to ourintimacy problems.
Well, first of all, thank youfor that compliment.
Good job, appreciate that andappreciate you for digging into
your own issues and your side ofthe equation.
(06:45):
He goes on to say a littlebackstory before my question.
When we got married, on ourwedding night we didn't have sex
.
We kissed and started to headthat way, but she was super
stressed and not feeling it, sowe stopped and waited until the
following night.
Once we had arrived at ourdestination for our honeymoon, I
was disappointed, but it wasn'tthe end of the world for me.
(07:05):
While we were on our honeymoon,things went okay.
We had sex and took timefiguring out this new thing for
us.
While I, being the high drivepursuer, would have liked more,
it wasn't alarming.
Once we got back from thehoneymoon, that changed.
The frequency tapered and overthe years became probably six to
seven times a year andsometimes went as long as a year
(07:27):
without as I would stoppursuing because the pain of
rejection was overwhelming.
Unfortunately, even these fewnumber of times, I felt like it
was mercy sex and I hated it.
It wasn't what I wanted.
I want her and the connection.
This past month I came to apoint where something had to
change.
I talked to her.
(07:47):
I went hard after resources tohelp me figure out what was
happening books, podcasts,webinars, courses, etc.
And we've had some good, hardconversations and made some
progress.
And this leads me to myquestion.
During one of those hardquestions, she brought up our
wedding night and how she feltmy disappointment that night.
(08:07):
Since that night, she told methat sex has always felt like a
duty to her and that she hasnever felt quote organic sex.
I asked her to help meunderstand what organic sex was
to her.
What I heard her say was thatit was natural sex that just
occurs, it's not planned for,there's no expectation it will
happen, we don't talk about itbefore and schedule it, etc.
(08:30):
While you hear her heart andthat desire and absolutely never
want her to feel pressured orlike sex is a duty.
I don't really understand thisconcept of organic, natural sex
that just occurs, of organic,natural sex that just occurs.
My question is is truly organicsex?
Even a thing?
It seems like sex that's trulyintimate and emotionally and
(08:56):
spiritually connecting, isintentional and takes work,
something we learn together overtime and that won't just happen
on its own.
So how can something like thattruly be organic, especially in
context of a busy life andmarriage where we both work
full-time, have two kids that wehomeschool, dance, karate, etc.
Hopefully you can shed somelight or insight on this for me
(09:17):
to better change my heart andguide our marriage and her in
this area.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Thank you, and her in this area.
Thank you, Wow.
There's a lot to unpack here.
First of all, listener, thankyou so much for sending in this
question.
Thank you for trusting us to bea resource in your pursuit of
better understanding yourmarriage.
Just a little side note we takethat seriously.
When you all email us, thatmeans a lot to us, and so thank
(09:45):
you, Thank you for reaching outto us, and you can be assured
that if you have a question,while the details might be
different than somebody else'sdetails, someone has this same
question.
We know this because this is aquestion that we have heard in
many other settings live eventsand things like that.
So you're not alone, and thankyou very much for taking the
(10:09):
time to send this in, becauseit's a great question.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, and we appreciate the vulnerability and
the context of the question,because I think the context of
this question in particularbrings up a lot of kind of side
points that are not in the meatof this question.
So what's the print?
Yeah, there's a lot ofdirections we could go with this
.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So we're going to try to kind of hone in on just that
one main question.
But I do think it's somethingto recognize that this is a
17-year marriage, where he issaying that sex right now and it
sounds like for a while withinthis marriage, has been
happening six to seven times peryear, sometimes even just.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Pete Sometimes far less than that.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Kirsten Far less than that just yearly.
So I think it's important forus to share with you that this
is what many experts, or theexpert standard, would
categorize as a sexless marriage.
Pete.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Right, even though sex is happening, it's not
happening with enough frequencyto be an indicator of health in
this relationship, and so sexdoes not make a marriage and
vice versa.
But when sex is happening thisinfrequently, it is a sign that
there is likely some verydeep-seated problems in this
(11:34):
relationship and, as such,there's probably more to this
relationship and theserelational problems than just
the sex piece.
Right, it's unlikely that thisis a thriving, harmonious
marriage in every respect,except in the bedroom.
Right Now I don't know thesefolks, nope, and we don't know
anything more than what has beenshared in this email.
(11:55):
But that is at least a red flag, especially if you are dealing
with a professional relationshiptherapist or counselor.
I think they would handle thisas a challenging and a
devitalized kind of relationship.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I don't say that to scare the person who wrote this,
but to say to you obviouslywe're not going to be able to
give you the full depth that youneed in order to really even
dig into the depth of thisproblem in this one podcast
episode.
So we would highly highlyrecommend that you seek
(12:38):
professional counseling, becauseI think there is a lot to
unpack there and I think that isreally going to be.
We are big proponents ofprofessional counseling.
I mean, we would always adviseyou to find a professional
counselor that is faith-based,that has the same perspective
that you have.
I think that is very important,but I do think that this is a
(13:01):
case where some professionalcounseling is warranted.
But overall, I mean, within allof the complexity of that, I
think there is a good questionin there that is a good question
for us to consider and that isis truly organic sex, even a
thing?
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Yeah, I love how he words it.
Yeah, I love how he words it.
(13:52):
And again, I think this is aquestion regardless of the
affection, that sex is justgoing to happen naturally and
it's going to be beautiful andit's going to be perfect and
there's never going to be anytrouble.
And we shouldn't.
It's a gift from God, we'retold right, so we shouldn't have
to work for it, or so we think.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Or so we think that's right, but the truth is nothing
happens organically orspontaneously.
There must be preparation,there must be intentionality.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Yeah, I mean, even if you are a physicist or a
scientifically-minded person,you recognize that if you just
let things go….
Speaker 2 (14:33):
What direction do they go?
Do they get better or do theyget worse?
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Does the state of your household get better
without any intentionality, orworse?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yes, yes, if you have any little people in your house
, you know what direction thatgoes?
Or if you just have a husband,sorry.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
If you just look at my desk, you would realize what
happens when there is nointentionality involved.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
But isn't it interesting that many of us do
have this mindset, that we canunderstand that in so many
realms of our life, and yet wethink that sex doesn't fit into
that same, you know, way ofbeing?
Speaker 1 (15:12):
We don't even apply this rule to any other kind of
our intimacy.
We don't expect that ourspiritual intimacy is going to
get better if we don't put anywork into it.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Or that I'm going to know you better if we don't have
any conversation.
Yeah, it's such a it's justsuch a Satan's good at
perpetrating this lie by usingHollywood by using romance
(15:56):
novels and we look in thosestories and we see two people
that just fall head over heelsin love and then have this magic
love scene and everything isjust great and everybody's happy
and everybody's pleasured.
And it just happened.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
Oh yeah, I mean, this lie is even started.
We started indoctrinating ourlittle girls with this lie from
the very first Disney princessmovies that they see.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Oh, here you go getting on your Disney soapbox.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
I mean like two people who've never met before
just randomly fall in love withone glance, not even a
conversation.
They fall in love with a simpleglance and then it all just
works out magically andeverybody's in love by the end.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Well, and we believe you know again what's Satan done
in our society.
What's Satan done in oursociety?
He's told us that the best sexis happening in the one-night
hookups where two people don'tknow each other at all.
But it's organic, it's bodies,it's hormones, it's chemistry,
it's physical connection and itjust happens.
(17:05):
Well, can sex feel good justphysically?
Well, sure it can, but I wouldchallenge is that really good
sex?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Right and I think that's part of the lie is that
the best sex is happening withpeople who don't even know each
other.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Right.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And it's just again part of the lie, part of the
problem, part of themisconception and part of the
expectations sometimes that wego into a relationship with.
Now I'm not accusing, I'm notsaying this wife came into this
relationship with all of theseexpectations.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I think we're saying, like many of us recognize we
had those kind of similarexpectations or lies stuck in
our head.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But I love what sex therapist Martha Kalpe says
about this.
She says sex is perfectlynatural, but it's not naturally
perfect.
In other words, sex is anatural thing and it's a
beautiful thing and it'ssupposed to happen, is a natural
(18:10):
thing and it's a beautifulthing and it's supposed to
happen.
We are intended for it, we aredesigned for it and marriage
relationship is the best placefor it.
But just because it's naturaland, in our way of thinking,
just because it's given by Godand to be part of this natural
process by which men and womenare united in this covenant of
(18:35):
marriage, just because it'snatural doesn't mean that it
happens naturally without anyeffort.
It's not perfected just on itsown.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Now, can there be times in your marriage where sex
feels spontaneous?
Yeah, but I would say thosetimes it's not actually
spontaneous.
You have laid a groundwork tothen make it a natural extension
of the intimacy that you havebeen busy creating.
(19:06):
I mean, we often think, likeyou know a vacation.
We often think, like you know,a vacation, a beautiful resort,
zero stress.
I didn't have to do a thing toworry about what we were eating.
Today We'll picture this as anall-inclusive resort, right?
No decisions needed to be madeand I spend the day totally
(19:32):
relaxed.
And then that leads into anamazing connection with my
beloved.
In that circumstance, sex feelsspontaneous right, pete.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, it does feel organic.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Kirsten, it does feel organic, but how did you get to
that resort?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Pete, yeah, there was a lot of planning.
I mean, maybe even awatered-down version of this is
date night and physical touchand connection, all of that when
that naturally then leads tobeautiful lovemaking at the end
(20:16):
of your date night.
Yes, that feels organic and itfeels natural and it feels
almost spontaneous.
But was it Only to the extentthat you put in quite a bit of
intentionality and preparationand you worked to build and
continue that intimacythroughout that evening?
It is a natural extension ofthe work that you have already
(20:41):
created, right.
So I think I would suggest toboth this husband and wife
because it has to fall on bothto build this.
You each have to be laying thegroundwork for sex to happen in
the time and the preparation,and you can set aside a time
where we can devote to buildingintimacy together.
(21:04):
If it feels too pressuring tosay that sex is necessarily
going to happen out from thisdate night or whatever it might
be, maybe that's too muchpressure for this moment, but it
doesn't have to be.
If we can set aside time forintimacy and relationship
building and physical closeness,sex can quote, organically grow
(21:29):
from that.
But it's not that we're notputting any effort into it, it's
not that it just happens byitself.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
And I think this gets to the idea.
Actually, here we'll plug theretreat this year.
Here we go.
We tend to think of ourrelationship in these little
self-contained boxes and we putsex in its own little box, right
, and we act like we can take itor leave it and it doesn't
affect the rest of arelationship or it doesn't have
(21:57):
anything to do with the rest ofa relationship.
And, frankly, nothing could befarther from the truth, because
we, our marriages, are designedto have many different levels
and places in which we should beconnecting with one another,
seeking intimacy with oneanother.
We like to talk about it and Ithink the Bible actually is who
(22:18):
talks about it this way thatthere is, yes, there's physical
intimacy, but there's alsoemotional intimacy, there's
mental intimacy, there'sspiritual intimacy.
This year's retreat is built onhow do we maximize all levels
of connection and how do webecome one in all areas of
(22:41):
intimacy.
So how does sex feel?
How do you get to a place wheresex feels organic?
Well, you get there when yourecognize the connection that
all those levels of intimacyplay with one another.
And so, when we are emotionallyconnected with one another,
(23:02):
physical intimacy is a byproduct.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, I would suggest , if this wife feels like sex is
an obligation or that it's nothappening organically in her
words, that suggests to me thatthere is not enough intimacy in
the fullness of thisrelationship.
Otherwise, sex would be abyproduct Now, because if
(23:26):
there's pressure, if there'sobligation, if there's this duty
to have sex, if that is thefeeling, there is never going to
be any passion associated withthat.
So this husband, this couple,husband and wife, really have no
hope for there being passionate, organic sex, unless if there
(23:47):
is pressure or obligation.
If there is pressure orobligation, either an assumed
pressure perhaps the wife isfeeling pressure that is maybe
not there, or she has pressureinternally, or pressure that is
being put upon her by thehusband, who is the pursuer in
this case, and I think thatopens up a whole other dimension
(24:09):
of this conversation.
But this wife, it sounds like,had some pretty when it came to
the honeymoon.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Now, I'm not blaming her, I'm not trying to say
anything against her, but Iwould think that that's a red
flag, a clear sign at least,that she was entering into this
marriage with some, at the veryleast, poor understanding of the
beauty of married sex.
And maybe this is just a callto all of us who are married do
(24:58):
a better job, do a better job ofhelping brides see the beauty
of married sex, the connectionthat should be coming from that.
Not viewing it as an obligationno, I would love that's another
that not viewing it as anobligation.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
No, I would love you're right, but I would love
to know that every young brideand or groom are getting good
quality preparation for thispart of their relationship.
It's a place where I think thechurch has failed and we've had
these conversations in priorepisodes as well and other
events but it's a place wherethe church has failed in giving
(25:35):
our young people well, maybe notall young our newly married
people the tools they need tonavigate this complicated part
of their relationship.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Well, because you see , like I mean he is, he's going
off, this is 17 years into theirmarriage.
Like I mean he's going off,this is 17 years into their
marriage and he goes back tonight one.
That just shows us the power.
Frankly, that's within nightone.
Now I don't say that to putmore pressure on that first
night, but it does show that shehad some anxiety from the
(26:09):
beginning.
Maybe they both did.
I mean, I don't know whatactually happened in that
bedroom, but clearly that's kindof where this began.
And so she has associated itsounds like for the vast
majority of her marriage she'sassociated sex with duty and
(26:30):
therefore an obligation andtherefore a place of anxiety.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, it sounds like she wasn't.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
She can't hope to have a passionate experience
surrounded by all of that.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
It sounds like she wasn't prepared to know how to
find the joy and the pleasure insex for herself.
Yeah, pleasure in sex forherself, it was.
She made it to be a duty forher husband and is waiting for
this magical time when she mightenjoy it herself, rather than
knowing how to be, to prepareherself, her mind, her spirit,
(27:04):
her body, how to prepare herselfto be able to receive the joy
from this.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Right, and so I would say, I mean again I think this
is a place where, if this isyour story, if this is your
spouse's story, that's a placewhere some therapy is needed,
some coaching, some mentorship.
If you can identify that therehas always been anxiety in your
(27:29):
marriage regarding sex, thatdefinitely has a place where
some unpacking needs to be done.
Where is that coming from?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Pete, absolutely Particularly.
If this is not something thatyou a hurdle that you have not
been able to get past in thefirst few months of your
relationship, if there's stillanxiety about sex, if there's
still a resentment or evenreservations about having sex,
that it's not enjoyable sex.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
And I think that's important for wives to hear.
We have this misconception thatI just need to do my wifely
duty because all it is isphysical to him too.
He's just looking for a release.
He's looking for my physicalbody and I'll just show up in my
body, get it over with and wecan move on with our life.
(28:38):
But that's not what a godlyhusband wants for sure.
That's clearly not what thisman wants and he's mourning the
fact that he doesn't.
What we call that mercy sexwhen one partner just shows up
just to simply check it off, theto-do list just offers nothing
(29:01):
but a physical connection.
That's mercy sex.
That is not connection.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Pete, no, it's not godly sex.
It's not building connection inyour marriage.
In fact, in many cases, as thisemailer suggested, it just is
simply building more and moreresentment for the both of you.
Neither of you is getting whatyou want out of this and I think
there is some onus here on thehusband for continuing to accept
(29:27):
mercy sex Again, if thisproblem had been addressed and
you know, hindsight is 20-20,.
This is not criticism of thishusband, because he's trying to
do the right thing today, whichis all I can ask, but I can
imagine that if this was aconversation that they had in
year one or month one of theirmarriage, they'd be in a
different place now.
(29:48):
If the husband had the wordsand the framework to address
this issue and to address thelack of connection in their sex
from the beginning, this couldhave been a very different
outcome 17 years later.
Again, that's perhaps on all ofus for not helping to prepare
(30:10):
married couples and giving themthe tools to even have these
conversations.
And some of this dynamic, I'msure, is compounded by even, in
some ways, the ways that thishusband may have been handling
rejection from the beginning,when he was not getting
(30:31):
responses to his overtures forsex.
How was he handling that?
Was he creating more tension?
Was he creating more pressure?
That's where pressure comesfrom in a lot of cases.
If this wife is feeling thepressure when she says no, then
that's a lot of times.
All she's going to be able tooffer then is mercy sex.
(30:53):
So there's a lot to thisdynamic.
We've addressed some of thatdynamic in previous episodes or
episodes like mercy sex and howto handle rejection.
So maybe something to go backto.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
But Maybe kind of where we land.
This is what do we suggest.
How can we offer at leastsomething to help both this
listener and others that are inthe same kind of boat?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
relationship and in all sexual relationships, have
work to do in order to co-createa situation where intimacy is
being fostered in all the realmsof their relationship.
It's something that must beco-created, and it is not just
(31:45):
in the realm of what's happeningin the bedroom.
In fact, most of what buildsgreat sex is not happening in
the bedroom.
It is happening in all of thedaily life, right?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
So when a couple comes to us and says we're not
having enough sex, our answer isnot well, just have more sex.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Right, that never helps.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
That doesn't help.
But the answer is look at theentirety of your marriage.
Start working on buildingintentionally building spiritual
intimacy, mental intimacy,emotional intimacy.
Be intentional about everyrealm of intimacy, physical
(32:26):
intimacy as well.
But just recognize that the wayto have more sex is not just to
act like this is just a sexproblem, because that's what you
don't want.
The answer is not just more sex.
The answer is how do we beconnected and fully intimate in
(32:48):
our marriage?
That's your goal.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes, and then sex becomes a natural byproduct.
It is the outflowing of thatintimacy and connection that we
are building in every sense Inour marriage.
That's your goal.
It still feels quote-unquoteorganic because it is flowing
(33:13):
out of this space that we havecreated.
When I create this space andreserve this space for the two
of us, when I reserve this spacefor time to share and to be
intimate and to be connected,when I build that space, create
that space, protect that space,then sex can happen in that
(33:35):
space and it feels quote unquotenatural and organic, if that's
kind of what you're looking for,yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
So his question is is truly organic sex, even a thing
?
Yes and no?
Yes, it seems like sex that'struly intimate and emotionally
and spiritually connection isintentional and takes work Bingo
, yes, but so does sole focus ofyour marriage, but a beautiful
(34:21):
part of your, the wholeness ofyour marriage, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
And I think that's a goal for everybody, whether
you've been married 17 days or17 years, whether your marriage
and sex life are just off thecharts extraordinary or whether
it's something that you're stillworking on and building.
This is a great lesson for allof us that, yes, sex takes hard
(34:44):
work and we say that a lot andwe preach that a lot but it
doesn't have to feel like hardwork.
It doesn't have to feel likeit's something that we're just
scheduling on our to-do list andmaking it a to-do item.
It can feel natural when we'veput in the work and the
(35:05):
preparation to make it that way.
All right.
Well, before we end thisepisode, we just wanted to
acknowledge again that we misseda couple of months and we're
sorry.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Some of you have been reaching out to make sure that
we haven't fallen off the faceof the planet, we haven't been
kidnapped or worse.
We can assure you that we arestill here.
Aside from the health strugglesthat I mentioned, that
definitely knocked us for a loopat the beginning of our year,
we've kind of had an even biggersource of distraction.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, that primary distraction for us has come in
the form of some fairly intensecriticism, including attacks on
our character and attacks on ourjudgment that really are all
centered around the subjectmatter for this podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
We have heard and been told very loudly that some
people believe that it isinappropriate for Christians to
talk about sexual topics in apublic format.
To talk about sexual topics ina public format.
We've been told that that'sespecially true for leaders in
the church, that sex Christiansshould not be talking about sex.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Pete and some folks are just uncomfortable with this
concept and others believe thatthe podcast content is simply
outright sinful.
And while we acknowledge thatthe topics that we address in
this podcast are certainlypolarizing, we'll say, and
(36:51):
certainly these topics areuncomfortable for some and I'm
sure you wouldn't believe this,but they are even uncomfortable
for us sometimes.
These topics and this podcast,we believe provides an important
resource for married coupleswho love Jesus and who want to
love each other better.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, we have always said that the podcast is what it
is, first of all, because, fromthe very beginning, you all
begged us to do this podcast,but it is a place in which we
can discuss these sometimesuncomfortable conversations
(37:27):
through a private medium.
I'm not looking in your eyes,you're not looking in my eyes.
You're not sitting by your bestfriend, necessarily, unless you
choose to be so.
It is a format in which we canget more personal when it comes
to the married sex relationship,but it's some people have taken
(37:50):
that and I don't know the rightwords weaponized that.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
It's yeah, we'll leave it there.
This is not the time and theplace for all the details, but
we just want you to know we'veneeded some space and some time
to try to address some of theseconflicts directly and also then
deal with the fallout that wehave had to walk through.
(38:20):
We've really been forced torethink everything and
reconsider the consequences thatthis work and this podcast has
on ourselves, on our marriage,the consequences to our children
and the consequences to thework that we have to do even in
(38:44):
our own local church family.
Thank you for giving us sometime, some space to walk through
(39:06):
what has been some really hardmonths for us, and also from
many who are not close to thesituation but have heard about
everything and have reached outwith words of comfort and
support and life life-givingwords.
So many that have reached outand we have truly been touched
(39:27):
by their love.
But we really wanted to let allof you know about this for two
reasons.
One, we want to let you knowwe're not stopping this work,
including the podcast.
This is episode 173.
173, and 174 is coming up next.
(39:49):
So so we're not stopping.
We just needed time to dealwith the fallout and we thank
you for your patience.
Also, we just wanted to let youknow that we need your prayers
for comfort and for healing andfor the courage to get back up
(40:10):
and do what we know that we needto be doing, and so with that,
we need to be doing, and so,with that, we'll leave it there.
We appreciate you so very much.
For all of those of you wholisten, we know that you listen
because you reach out to us whenwe fail to get an episode out.
We know that you listen becauseyou've told us episode out.
(40:37):
We know that you listen becauseyou've told us.
So, whether that's one of youor a few of you, whether you are
in Canada or in the UnitedStates or anywhere else.
We thank you.
We're not celebrities by anymeans, but we do know that there
are a significant number of youthat appreciate this work that
we're doing, and so we just wantto let you know that we
(40:58):
appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yes, thank you.
Thank you for being a supportand an encouragement to us and,
most of all, thank you forproclaiming in your own
marriages the beauty ofconnection and oneness, as God
intended.
Now it's time to grab yourspouse and your Bible and head
to your kitchen table to have aconversation about how you can
(41:22):
create a better space for trulyconnected sex in your marriage.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
We'd love to hear your feedback about this episode
or any others.
Contact us by emailing podcastat intimatecovenantcom or to
submit anonymous feedback andquestions go to
intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by yoursupport and your encouragement.
We're truly humbled by yoursupport and your encouragement
and thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers from coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
(42:05):
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
And please support our affiliate businesses who
help support Intimate CovenantLinks, and exclusive discount
codes for thesemarriage-centered businesses are
in the show notes.
Until next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
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