February 12, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode, Matt & Jenn answer a listener's question about shifting roles roles in the pursuer/responder dynamic. But first, a few important announcements:
- "Covenant Conversations" is the official name for the daily exercise formerly known as "Daily Check-in." Our thanks to Lamar Schrei for suggesting this!
- Registration for the Intimate Covenant Annual Marriage Retreat opens on Valentine's Day! www.intimatecovenant.com/retreat
- Plan to join us for the 7th annual Marriage Retreat in Houston, TX — September 19-21. Registration opens on Valentine’s Day.
- A shift in the roles of pursuers and responders is common in all relationships. Sometimes these role changes signal something detrimental to the relationship. Often they simply represent typical patterns of growth or seasonal shifts in the relationship.
- In a healthy relationship, labeling who is the pursuer and who is the responder is far less important than making sure that there is frequent and healthy pursuit and response in all realms of intimacy.
Please support these companies that support Intimate Covenant:
- Married Dance — https://marrieddance.com/?aff=29
Shop from this link and part of your purchase will support Intimate Covenant. - Coconu — http://www.coconu.com
Coupon Code: intimateconvenant for 15% off your purchase
To send your comments, questions and suggestions, go to our website: www.intimatecovenant.com/podcast and click on the button: “Contact the Podcast” for an ANONYMOUS submission form. Or, send an email: podcast@intimatecovenant.com
Thanks for sharing, rating, reviewing and subscribing!
Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
PS — If you have been blessed by the message of this podcast, we would deeply appreciate your support by donating to our mission of spreading God’s plan for intimate marriage and holy sexuality.
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Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Jen, wanna talk about the perfect Valentine's
Day gift.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
We are not doing another sex toys episode.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Great.
Actually, today we're going todiscuss the theme of the 2024
annual marriage retreat.
Registration opens onValentine's Day and we want to
answer a listener's questionrelated to our theme this year
Desire, let's do it.
Welcome to the IntimateCovenant podcast, where we
(00:39):
believe the Bible and GreatMarried sex both belong on your
kitchen table.
That's right.
We're talking about holy,covenant-bound intimate
relationships with hot sex.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're Matt and Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant.
We offer biblical teaching andresources to help married
couples achieve a fullerrelationship and an
extraordinary sex life.
For more information, visit ourwebsite, IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Welcome.
Thanks for joining us so gladto have you.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast and we
have a few important and funannouncements to make.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
That's right.
We're going to start with ourofficial name for the Daily
Check-In on episode 154.
We went through what our DailyCheck-In is.
You guys that are regularlisteners have heard us talk
about this before and you heardus say we think the name Daily
Check-In is quite boring.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And it is boring, and so that's why we asked you, our
creative audience, to come upwith a better name for us, and
we had-.
And you did, you did.
We had lots of greatsuggestions and we had lots of
you voting on social media andemail and we have narrowed it
down to one final winner.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
That's right, you all picked the name for the Daily
Check-In will now be CovenantConversations.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Covenant Conversations, so we love that
name.
That's how we're going to referto it from now on and probably
be releasing some resources togo along with that, now that we
have a nice new, official, cool,sexy name for the Daily
Check-In Covenant Conversations,and we're so happy that this
name was submitted by ourcontest winner, who is our good
(02:22):
friend Lamar Schrey.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you, Lamar.
Thank you, Lamar.
We think it's a perfect nameand we hope all of you guys
agree.
And again, thanks for sendingthe submission, thanks for
playing along, thanks for voting.
That was fun.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So we're going to send some cool merch to Lamar
for her submission and, yeah, weappreciate it.
And again, thank you to all ofyou for participating in that or
sending in your votes, and wejust really appreciate it.
Covenant Conversations I likeit.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I like it.
We also want to share somecoming marriage days that we're
going to be doing.
Coming up very soon, we'regoing to be heading to Austin,
Texas, just down the road, for amarriage day there Last weekend
in February.
This event actually is aprivate event.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It is.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
We're completely sponsored by a private
individual, but if you're in theAustin area and you really want
to come, contact us for moreinformation and we will make
sure that you get the detail ofthat.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
We'll see if some seats are available.
So the other place we're goingshortly after Austin is to Tampa
.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, we're heading back out to Tampa again.
That'll be on Saturday, march2nd, from 9 to 4.
So if you're in the Tampa area,we would love to have you join
us again.
We'll be presenting all newinformation.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
New material stuff we haven't presented in Tampa
before that event again March2nd.
We would sure love to see theirregistration for that event
just opened, and you can findout more about that at
IntimateCovenantcom slash Tampa,fittingly enough.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well, matt, this episode is dropping on February
12th, two days beforeValentine's Day, and in the
Intimate Covenant world,valentine's Day is a big deal,
because Valentine's Day equalsregistration opening for our
annual marriage retreat, that'sright.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Registration opens February 14th.
That is Valentine's Day.
Hopefully everybody is familiarwith that and if you're a
Patreon subscriber, you alreadyknow this because you've already
been informed that you haveaccess to early registration.
So we're happy for our Patreonmembers to take advantage of
that.
If you're a Patreon member, youhave a guaranteed spot.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
If you want to come, we will make sure that you get
to come Love our Patreon membersand the monthly support that
they provide for the IntimateCovenant podcast and Intimate
Covenant.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, everything that we could do, everything.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Intimate Covenant.
So that's our way of thankingPatreon subscribers.
We do expect this retreat tosell out again, and so we just
love giving the perk to Patreonsubscribers of registering early
, yeah make sure you get in.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So we do also want to announce at this time our theme
.
We have decided on a theme forthe retreat, and that theme is
desire, yes, desire.
So, as we're wording it, wewant to ignite the emotional and
(05:32):
physical passion in yourmarriage, and that will be the
purpose and the theme for theretreat this year.
Our plan is to really confrontthe challenges to maintaining
closeness in marriage, and thenwe want to try to offer some
biblical principles and alongwith our own personal experience
, so that couples can helpovercome those obstacles that so
(05:55):
commonly get in the way ofmaintaining and igniting
intimacy.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, so the title of this year's theme desire.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I loved the way you say that.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, did you?
Did you appreciate that?
Well, it might make some of youwonder if our material is just
going to be solely focused onsex.
We recognize that for some ofyou, you might be thinking well,
that would be amazing.
The other of you are thinking Iam not coming just for that
reason we get it.
(06:26):
So we just wanted to assure.
I mean, last year's theme wascovenant stories, right, and
that felt like a nice safe title.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Kind of tame.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Kind of tame, but we wanted to.
When we landed on the namedesire, we love it because we
really think it's gonna capturewhat all we're gonna do with the
retreat.
But we recognize that mightscare some people away, and so
we want to assure you that we,while we are going to be
(06:57):
discussing how we can increaseour desire for physical intimacy
, that will not be the onlything that we're talking about.
We will take part indiscussions that deal with all
realms of intimacy, not justtalking about sex.
We plan to explore how we canincrease desire for intimacy in
(07:18):
all areas of our marriage.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right, absolutely.
So.
While we're talking aboutphysical intimacy, certainly and
that's really where the podcastis kind of landed in terms of
what we tend to focus on withthe marriage relationship,
that's not what our live eventsare typically about.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Nobody, not even us, want to sit and talk about sex
for six straight hours a day.
So, and more importantly,that's really not the point
anyway, even with our podcast,as we're gonna talk about even
today, where we kind of come atthis through the lens of sexual
intimacy, but we're reallytrying to talk about the entire
(07:58):
relationship and that's whatwe're gonna talk about.
So, most importantly, what wehope to spur in the process of
the fullness of that weekend isto start the conversations that
are needed between you and yourspouse so that you guys can
build and co-create thisintimacy in all of the areas of
(08:21):
your marriage.
Right, Not just sexual intimacy, but all the realms of your
marriage.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right and within that , we're gonna dig in deeper to
this idea of a pursuer responderdynamic, and that's something
our regular listeners are quitefamiliar with.
We've used that language for awhile now.
But I think what we would liketo focus on is how we can better
define our individual roles andhow I, as an individual,
(08:50):
contribute to this dynamic in myrelationship and how I can
maximize the part that I play increating oneness, whether I'm a
pursuer or a responder.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Right, and again, that's kind of something we hit
on kind of every time we have anevent.
But as you and I kind ofconsidered what we wanted to
really cover this time, wereally thought we really wanted
to make that a more importantfocus and really dig into some
of the nuances of this wholepursuer responder dynamic.
(09:23):
So we have some fresh ideas, wehave some new directions that
we kind of want to take this,and so we're really excited to
flesh that out over the next fewmonths, while we're put
together.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I think for us, one reason that we're so drawn to
this pursuer responder languageis because that was a huge
paradigm shift within ourmarriage when we were able to
take our relationship and put itwithin that lens.
It really helped us betterunderstand our roles and,
frankly, every time that we talkabout the pursuer responder, we
(10:00):
get a lot of feedback from it,because we know it resonates
with you all as well.
So we really thought well, let'stake that and turn it into an
entire retreat.
But don't worry, if you'velistened to us for a long time,
if you've been around from thevery beginning, like you were
just saying, I think we've gotsome new, fresh approach to it.
(10:21):
So, even if you've heardeverything we've ever said about
pursuer responder, our prayeris that you will be able to walk
away from the retreat havinglearned something more.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Absolutely, and that's a little bit about what
this episode is about is kind ofdigging into some of the nuance
, so maybe you'll get a littleforetaste.
Maybe that's the point of thisepisode there you go.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
It's like a foreplay episode for the retreat Matt.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Wow, I see what you did there.
Are you impressed?
See what you did there.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So we're going to offer practical and realistic
advice for reigniting passionateromance in all realms of your
relationship, and that meansspiritually, mentally,
emotionally and sexually,because-.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yes, even your spiritual relationship should be
passionate and romantic.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
And maybe that's part of what we'll explore when we
get to the retreat time.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
So we'll have some fresh ideas and new directions
that we want to take it, and ourgoal every year is to present
something that will be relevantand challenging for everyone
that attends.
Whether you've come to everysingle retreat we've ever put,
out there.
This will be our seventh-.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Seventh annual.
Matt.
Seventh annual.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I knew we would keep going this long.
Or if maybe you've never cometo any of them, whether you've
listened to all of our podcastepisodes or this is your very
first one, whether you've beenmarried a month, a year, a
decade, lots of decades.
Whatever it is, we endeavor toput together a retreat that is
(11:55):
relevant to all.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And refreshing, and refreshing.
So if all that sounds excitingto you, get online.
You can find more informationabout the retreat and you can
register at intimatecovenantcom.
Slash retreat.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
All right.
So, in light of our opening ofregistration for the annual
retreat, like you said just aminute ago, we wanted to cover a
topic that's related to thegeneral theme that we'll be
covering at the retreat.
So we received this email froma listener, from a wife, and I'm
gonna read it and then we'llkind of dive into it a little
(12:30):
bit.
Can't wait.
She says hello, I've listenedto all your episodes.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Have you listened to all of our episodes?
I may.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
She goes on to say thank you for all that you do.
You've helped my marriage andmyself in many ways.
However, lately I seem to behaving more and more questions
about the pursuer-responderrelationship for sexual and
emotional intimacy.
Let's start first with myconfusion over the sexual
pursuer-responder dynamic.
I can really see how helpful itis, but what I cannot see is
(13:05):
how my love and I fit into theseroles consistently.
For us, these roles seem tochange from week to week or even
day to day, for a variety ofreasons.
Number one the natural monthlychanges in my hormones, since my
body hasn't gotten the memothat we're not having any more
kids.
I love how she praises that.
(13:25):
And number two, changes instress levels to do with life,
kids, work, family, the usual.
And then, number three,sometimes just diet and exercise
changes.
Her question is is it normalthat we flip-flop these roles so
often?
Well, I guess it doesn't matterbecause it's normal for us.
(13:49):
So I would love some clarityand guidance on how to better
navigate these ever-changingroles so we can grow in our
sexual intimacy, like whoinitiates if we both are
pursuing so many great questions?
I love how she lays out heremail and she herself lists some
of the reasons she thinks thatthings might change their
(14:14):
pursuer responder dynamic.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Clearly she's thought about this.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
She has.
I love how she just flat-outsays well, it doesn't matter if
it's normal for everybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
It's normal for us.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So the basis of her email is okay.
If this is our normal, what dowe do about it?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Right, right.
So she's listening to everysingle episode.
Let me just say, if you, as alistener, have listened to every
single episode, we want to hearfrom you.
Send us an email and we'regoing to send you something
special.
Send us an email at feedback atintimate covenant dot com, or a
podcast at intimate covenantdot com.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, we love hearing from you guys in that way.
So, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Thank you for listening, for sure, and so,
because you've listened everyepisode, we owe you a response
to your questions, and so we'rehappy to do so.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That's right.
So she is familiar with thepursuer responder dynamic and
she's asking us to dig into someof the nuances of it.
But, matt, maybe somebody'slistening.
Who's thinking?
What are you guys talking about?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, so I think it's worth reviewing at least, or
maybe laying out just the basicconcepts of what are we even
talking about with this pursuerresponder thing?
And so the simple way toexplain this is that in every
aspect of your marriage there isa pursuer and a responder.
Okay, so specifically, weusually talk about this in with
(15:41):
respect to there being a sexualpursuer and responder and an
emotional pursuer and responder,and you may be the pursuer in
one aspect of your relationshipand the responder in another
aspect of your relationship, butin every realm of intimacy and
every realm of your relationshipthere is a pursuer and a
responder.
So, briefly defining, then thepursuer is the one who assumes
(16:06):
the role of initiating that'stype of connection.
So if I'm the sexual pursuer, Iam the one who most commonly or
most often is the one who'sgoing to initiate sexual
connection, and that's becausesexual connection to the sexual
pursuer is something that ishighly valued.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Right, okay, they put a lot of value on that realm of
intimacy, and so they, bynature, then, are the one who is
seeking connection first andforemost.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
So they're typically the one who is going to initiate
that type of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah.
So then the responder is theone who is burdened to either
accept or reject those bids forconnection.
Often that, their way ofconnecting is not necessarily
through that realm of intimacy,and so it is upon them whether
to respond positively ornegatively to the pursuer, as
(17:09):
they're initiating.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Sure, and to be clear , it's not always a black and
white issue, and that's kind ofwhat we're going to flesh out as
we kind of answer this questiona little bit more, and it's
something that often will canchange in the course of the
relationship.
Again, as this listener ispointing out, and as we're going
to flesh out as we kind ofendeavor through this.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I'm excited to go through this one because I
think you know, like we said atthe beginning, like the pursuer
responder, just that mindset,understanding that dynamic was
super helpful for us as webetter understood our roles.
And because we think it, weknow from hearing from all of
you all that it's helpful foryou too.
(17:53):
We revert back to that, we usethat a lot, but we don't often
get the chance to really diginto the nuances.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There are always nuances.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It's not as black and white as sometimes.
I think we have presented itfor most for every couple, I
should say that way.
So there, there is definitelydifferent ways this plays out in
different marriages.
So her question of are wenormal?
Well, yes, it actually isnormal for the pursuer and
(18:28):
responder roles to change.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Sure, and sometimes that change happens over a long
period of time and sometimes, asthis listener is pointing out,
it's something that changes withsome frequency and the reason
for the change is the shift ofimportance in each realm of
connection for each individual.
So it may be due to yourindividual shift in focus, in
(18:54):
other words, for whateverreasons, for, for example, if
she's using the example ofsexual intimacy, so we'll go
with that realm, but thishappens in every other realm of
intimacy.
But, for example, in her case,because of changing
circumstances, her shift infocus waxes and wanes in terms
(19:15):
of her sexual desire, and so orit could be that your spouse is
also changing in their level ofdesire or interest or focus on
that same particular realm ofintimacy.
So if your focus is going up oryour partner's focus is going
down, then that's potentiallygoing to flip-flop the
(19:35):
difference in your desire, thediscrepancy in your desires.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Right.
So there might be times whereyou feel like you are more
taking on that pursuer role andother times you feel much more
of a responder in that realm ofintimacy.
I think if the roles don'tentirely reverse in your
relationship, then it's almostinevitable that the gap in your
levels of desire will changesignificantly one way or another
(20:03):
.
Yeah sure.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I mean the difference in your desires for whatever
that realm of intimacy is goingto be, if they're not reversing,
in other words, if you're notreversing roles entirely, there
are going to be times in yourrelationship where you're going
to be assuming, sometimes moreof a pursuer role, or less of a
pursuer role, or more of aresponder role, less of a
(20:26):
responder role.
So it's going to change, evenif it never flips.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You are at least going to have sometimes where
you're going to be displayingmore of those behaviors, or not.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Right, I mean human nature is where there are going
to be times when we are seekinga stronger connection than
others, whether that's in apursuing kind of way or a
responding kind of way.
So let's go through somereasons why your roles may
change.
You know what would causesomeone to go from feeling like
(20:57):
I'm a pursuer to now, maybe, I'ma responder.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, I think I mean in this listener with her
question answers this to someextent.
I mean she talks about thingslike hormones.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
She gets like one, two and three.
I'm a conical.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Hormones, stress and you know hormones in particular.
That can be a plus or a minusdepending on which hormones
we're talking about.
But hormones are going tochange just naturally with age,
with health problems or evenjust normal health.
With a woman's normal cyclethat's going to change her
(21:34):
hormones and her sexual desirelevels.
For some women that's a verydramatic change from week to
week.
Others it's less impactful.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
But that definitely can change your desire for
sexual connection.
It can become more or lessbased on where your hormone
levels are.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely, and there are certainly medications that
you may be taking or have beenprescribed that will also impact
your hormones and or impactyour libido in other ways.
So, yeah, there's lots ofthings that can change your
sexual desire and your desirefor sexual connection to make
(22:13):
that increased or decreased, andincluding health issues, I mean
lots of things that can changethat.
Of course, the biggest probablylibido influencer for most
people, especially for women, isstress and the stress, the way
that you are processing stressin your life.
(22:34):
She talks about quote kids,work, family, the usual yeah, I
mean that's life, right?
Life brings us stress, and theway that we are processing that,
the way that we're able tohandle it and how much of it is
we're dealing with at a timewill certainly affect our sexual
desire.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Well, and the age.
I mean, if you are a family, awife, mom especially that have
little children, that willgreatly influence your sexual
desire compared to when yourchildren get older, because,
frankly, they just require somuch more physical demand, which
(23:12):
influences everything, and sodefinitely those are different
ways that can, and that'sobviously not an exhaustive list
, but different things can causeyou to desire sexual connection
more or less, and the same istrue for emotional connection.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, we don't think about this as much when we talk
about this desire gap between apursuer and a responder.
But emotional connection canwax and wane.
Your desire for emotionalconnection can wax and wane, and
one reason for that I mean kidsare the problem for every
aspect of marriage.
So why wouldn't they affectyour emotional connection?
(23:52):
But if you're getting emotionalfulfillment simply from raising
kids and being around kids allthe time, then it would
certainly.
That certainly can take itstoll on your marriage If the
emotional fulfillment you'regetting from your kids becomes a
substitute or the connectionthat you should be seeking with
(24:13):
your spouse.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Right and the kids aren't the only way that you can
substitute that.
I mean you could besubstituting your need for or
desire for emotional connectionwith your spouse, with friends.
You know, if you have allowedyour friendships to have
stronger priority in your lifethan your relationship with your
spouse, you're gonna fillnaturally then a sense of
(24:39):
fulfillment from thoserelationships that will affect
the kind of connection you'relooking for from your spouse.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So you know again the other.
I guess the other side of thisis sometimes you may lose a
little bit of that desire forinitiating emotional connection,
because the emotionalconnection that you're getting
is perhaps healthier or moresatisfying.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
That's a good point, like it may be that you know at
one point of your relationshipyou were really seeking and
maybe seeking in an unhealthyway a connection, maybe because
you felt a sense of scarcity.
Maybe you felt a sense of youknow I have to grab on to all
(25:31):
that I can get.
If your relationship has gottenhealthier, it's actually gonna
end up feeling like I'm notseeking that as much because
you're naturally you're just atthat point.
You're more filled by yourconnection and so there may be
less dependency on your spousethat you were trying to use to
soothe anxiety.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Right, exactly, a mental health professional would
call that moving from asituation of codependency to
more of a secure attachmentstyle, but we're not gonna get
too geeked out on that kind oflanguage Now.
That said, your roles maychange.
(26:12):
Your levels of desire for thesekinds of connections may change
, and there are some reasons whythose roles will change, like
we've talked about.
But I think something to really, I guess, first emphasize is
most of the time, this is notreally a problem, and I guess I
(26:33):
want to make sure this listenerunderstands it.
It's not necessarily a problemthat your roles are changing
from time to time, or evenfrequently, and this is
especially true in a couple thatis relatively closely matched
in terms of their relativedesire for whatever this
particular type of intimacymight be.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, we tend to kind of think of this as, like you
know, a pursuer and responderare far apart and almost
opposite one another.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, there's-.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And it can certainly be that.
But there can also berelationships in which both
partners have almost a similaror same amount of pursuit of
desire, in both responsive andpursuing desire.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, opposites attract, yes, but it doesn't
mean you have to be opposite inevery single realm of your life.
And so it is perfectly feasibleand reasonable to recognize
that there are some couples.
When they get together, atleast at some point in their
life, their sexual desire may beclose to equal, or their
emotional desire may be close toequal, and if that's the case,
(27:45):
it doesn't take much of a changein either individual for those
roles to sometimes reversethemselves, as one person is
gaining or losing more or lessinterest in that particular type
of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Right, I mean most couples.
The gap between pursuer andresponder roles is significant
enough that one spouse tends tojust assume that sexual
responder role and the otherwill assume the sexual pursuer
role for the vast majority oftheir lives together, maybe all
of their life together, right.
Right, and that might be thesame.
(28:21):
It's true, can be true foremotional relationship.
But while this stereotype isthe norm, maybe it's certainly
not unusual for a couple to bejust closely matched in their
desire for sexual or emotionalintimacy, and so that may be the
case for this listener, andmaybe it's just a matter of
saying, okay, and I think shewas kind of getting there right
(28:44):
Like, are we normal?
Well, it doesn't matter,because it's normal for us.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Sure, and how do?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
we do this the best.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, and if it's working for them and I think
that's maybe where we're gettingto if it's working for them,
then there may not be anythingthat requires repair.
So I guess what I'm getting atis labeling yourself or labeling
your spouse necessarily as apursuer or a responder In my
mind is far less important thanjust noticing or acknowledging
(29:13):
whether or not there is healthy,frequent pursuit and response
in the relationship as a whole.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Right, I mean as long as, as a couple, someone is
making bids for connection andthe other is responding to those
bids for connection, then itreally makes no difference who
was doing which or how often.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So we don't ever want these names, the titles, if you
will, of pursuer and responder,to get in the way.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right.
I mean we use the pursuer andresponder labels to kind of help
identify that there are twosides to every connection and
somebody has to be playing therole of the initiator and
someone has to be playing therole of the responder.
But to me it's not thatimportant who's doing what, as
(30:06):
long as it's happening.
So if you're an emotionalpursuer one day and you're an
emotional responder on anotherday, no problem, Just keep
making those bids and just keeplistening for those bids and
playing your role in the dynamicas it's happening.
Just recognize the importancethat there are both sides of the
(30:29):
equation and both sides have tobe working for there to be
healthy, positive interactionand building of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Right.
And another reason that rolesmay change is that one or both
of you begin to appreciate andeven leverage the fact that all
realms of intimacy in yourmarriage are connected.
Yes, and this has very muchbeen the story of our marriage.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Oh yeah, I mean, for example, the more that our
relationship has matured, I havelearned that, even though my
nature makes me an emotionalresponder, that's just kind of
naturally who I am and how I'mbuilt as an emotional responder.
I am now, though, much morewilling and much more eager to
(31:15):
initiate emotional connectionsRight, and I think that's
probably for a couple of reasons.
One I've come to appreciate andenjoy emotional connection.
I love it more, and Iappreciate the value of the
closeness that is built fromintimate conversations and being
(31:38):
vulnerable, and so I've becomemore comfortable with emotional
vulnerability.
So, therefore, I'm less likelyto withdraw, and in fact, I'm
even more likely to sometimesinitiate a deep conversation on
my own.
Now, that probably has to dowith a couple of reasons, at
least a couple.
(31:59):
One reason I can think of,though, is that one reason I'm
more comfortable with that partof the relationship is because I
have grown to trust thesecurity of our relationship, so
the outcome of thoseconversations is less in doubt,
so I'm more comfortable, so I'mable to put myself out there and
(32:19):
be more vulnerable, and I'vealso done some personal work in
trying to grow and expand my ownemotional capacity, so I've
taken on some responsibilitymyself to grow myself in that
realm of relationships ingeneral and specifically in my
marriage.
And then, secondly, I've alsolearned that, even though I'm a
(32:42):
sexual pursuer, it's the deepemotional connection that makes
sex better.
So I've recognized that agenuine investment and a sincere
pursuit in the emotionalrelationship is actually an
investment also in the sexualrelationship, because they're
(33:04):
inseparable.
So, as I've learned that if I,if I put myself out there
emotionally, it benefits mesexually, and so if I'm a sexual
pursuer, that's a win-win forme.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I'm just sitting here listening to you say all that
and thinking how far we've come.
Oh man Because this iscertainly not where we were 20
years ago.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
And that's why we're sharing, because we hope that
this Exactly we are walking thisjourney, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
So, and you know, I, as a sexual responder, and most
sexual responders in a healthymarriage, will also have this
same arc of growth with respectto their sexual relationship.
And so for me, as a sexualresponder, when I learned to
(33:52):
trust our relationship and Ibegan truly valuing the benefit
of a thriving sexualrelationship for both of us,
right, I gained a just a greaterand deeper appreciation for our
sex life as a whole, which alsoplayed into me having a
(34:13):
stronger sexual desire.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And while I will never likely become the primary
sexual pursuer in our marriage,I've grown more comfortable in
sharing some of that pursuerrole, just from the standpoint
of learning to even initiatesexual connection myself, right
Because I see the beauty of therole that our sexual, our
(34:41):
physical intimacy plays in ourwhole relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
And, just like you're saying, you recognize how much
deeper a sexual relationship iswhen there's an emotional
connection.
Vice versa, if I want to have adeep and real emotional
connection with you, I know thata sexual connection plays a
(35:06):
huge part of that, just likespiritual connection plays a big
part of that.
Right, it's just this learningthat all of it works together.
And when you learn toappreciate that, when both of
you start learning to appreciatethat, it takes the pressure off
.
And so what may seem like I'mnot pursuing as strongly, I'm
(35:29):
not having to respond asstrongly, it might just be that
there's less pressure from oneor both of you.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
So that's our vulnerable bit inthe episode, so you'll never
know how this all happens withthe details.
But we do think it's importantto give you a little bit of
glimpse, kind of how this atleast works in a general sense,
because I think you'll find thatsame kind of growth in your own
(35:57):
relationship, or at least wewant that to be something that
you can pursue in yourrelationship.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Right.
So it's not always an importantsign if your roles are changing
.
It's not necessarily a markerof anything problematic in your
relationship.
It may just represent naturalor harmless variations or cycles
.
But, sometimes it is animportant indicator.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
There are some reasons to at least be aware
that it could be somethingproblematic in your relationship
if these roles are changing.
And, most importantly, I thinkit's a problem if it means that
one of you is just simplywithdrawing your investment from
the relationship.
(36:43):
If one of you was a pursuer andsuddenly you're not, and that's
because you've withdrawn yourpursuit, because you just don't
care anymore, or you just stopresponding because you just are
checking out or just gettinglazy, perhaps then the other of
you is going to be left to takeon that role of pursuit in all
(37:07):
the realms of intimacy and,generally speaking, if that
becomes the case, that can be areally important sign that
something is unhealthy in yourrelationship.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Right and that one spouse stops pursuing because of
constant rejection.
It's no longer worth it to themto be vulnerable in their
pursuit because it just hurtstoo much and ultimately what
that might lead to is themfinding fulfillment elsewhere,
and I mean emotionally orsexually.
(37:39):
If you're constantly shut downand criticized and told you know
you're too much.
Yeah, you're too much by yourspouse, then at some point most
people will stop trying, and sothat may be that you know that
pursuer is just feeling a senseof constant rejection, and it
(38:01):
could be that sometimes a spousestops responding because they
feel like they can never do itgood enough.
There's just a sense of failureI give and then my pursuer asks
for more like that.
It's whatever.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
They're never satisfied.
They're never content.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yes, Right and ultimately that might be driving
a responder to look forfulfillment elsewhere,
themselves, emotionally andsexually.
And so you do have to pay closeattention to what might be
feeding into this dynamic.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Absolutely, and there are lots of scenarios and we
would never try to name them allwhere a role change could
signal a serious problem in therelationship, but they all boil
down, I think, to one importantfactor and that is that one
spouse, in these situationswhere it's where it could
indicate something dangerous tothe relationship, it's when one
(38:56):
spouse or both spouses stopresponding, when there is
pursuit without response, onwhatever side of that you might
be on, if there's pursuitwithout response, that is a big,
huge red flag with strobelights and fireworks.
(39:17):
That is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It's time to get some help.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah.
So I think, summing it all up,it's less important who fulfills
each role in the pursuerresponder dynamic, as long as
there is frequent and healthypursuit and response.
So what that means for all ofus is that we each have a
(39:41):
responsibility to initiate bidsfor connection and be eager to
respond when our spouse isreaching out.
Keep reaching out.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
And keep listening and paying attention to our
spouse, as they're reaching outto us as well.
Precisely Well said All right,Matt, give us our wrap up.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
First of all, plan to join us for the seventh annual
marriage retreat in HoustonTexas.
It is September 19th throughthe 21st.
Registration opens onValentine's Day.
Happy Valentine's Day everybody.
Secondly, a shift in the rolesof pursuers and responders is
common in all relationships.
(40:21):
Sometimes these role changessignal something detrimental to
the relationship.
Often they simply representtypical patterns of growth or
seasonal shifts in therelationship.
In a healthy marriage, labelingwho is the pursuer and who is
the responder is far lessimportant than making sure that
(40:42):
there is frequent and healthypursuit and response in all
realms of your intimacy.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Now it's time to grab your spouse in your Bible and
head to your kitchen table tohave the conversation about how
the roles of pursuing andresponding have played out in
your marriage.
Which role do you most oftensee yourself in?
Most importantly, do you makeconnection in all realms of
intimacy a priority and if not,what needs to change?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
We want to hear your feedback.
Certainly want to hear yourfeedback on this episode.
We would love to hear yourquestions, your concerns.
What did we leave out?
What did we forget?
Contribute to the conversationby emailing us podcast at
intimate covenant dot com, orsubmit an anonymous feedback
form or questions by going toour website intimate covenant
(41:33):
dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and your support.
Thanks, especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
We love you.
If the message of intimatecovenant has blessed your
marriage, we would love to haveyou join us.
(41:56):
Subscribe at patreon dot com.
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Until next time, keep striving and don't settle.
Hey, Jen, wanna talk about the perfect Valentine's
Day gift.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
We are not doing another sex toys episode.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Great.
Actually, today we're going todiscuss the theme of the 2024
annual marriage retreat.
Registration opens onValentine's Day and we want to
answer a listener's questionrelated to our theme this year
Desire, let's do it.
Welcome to the IntimateCovenant podcast, where we
(00:39):
believe the Bible and GreatMarried sex both belong on your
kitchen table.
That's right.
We're talking about holy,covenant-bound intimate
relationships with hot sex.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're Matt and Jen, founders of Intimate Covenant.
We offer biblical teaching andresources to help married
couples achieve a fullerrelationship and an
extraordinary sex life.
For more information, visit ourwebsite, IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Welcome.
Thanks for joining us so gladto have you.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Welcome to the Intimate Covenant podcast and we
have a few important and funannouncements to make.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
That's right.
We're going to start with ourofficial name for the Daily
Check-In on episode 154.
We went through what our DailyCheck-In is.
You guys that are regularlisteners have heard us talk
about this before and you heardus say we think the name Daily
Check-In is quite boring.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And it is boring, and so that's why we asked you, our
creative audience, to come upwith a better name for us, and
we had-.
And you did, you did.
We had lots of greatsuggestions and we had lots of
you voting on social media andemail and we have narrowed it
down to one final winner.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
That's right, you all picked the name for the Daily
Check-In will now be CovenantConversations.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Covenant Conversations, so we love that
name.
That's how we're going to referto it from now on and probably
be releasing some resources togo along with that, now that we
have a nice new, official, cool,sexy name for the Daily
Check-In Covenant Conversations,and we're so happy that this
name was submitted by ourcontest winner, who is our good
(02:22):
friend Lamar Schrey.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you, Lamar.
Thank you, Lamar.
We think it's a perfect nameand we hope all of you guys
agree.
And again, thanks for sendingthe submission, thanks for
playing along, thanks for voting.
That was fun.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
So we're going to send some cool merch to Lamar
for her submission and, yeah, weappreciate it.
And again, thank you to all ofyou for participating in that or
sending in your votes, and wejust really appreciate it.
Covenant Conversations I likeit.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I like it.
We also want to share somecoming marriage days that we're
going to be doing.
Coming up very soon, we'regoing to be heading to Austin,
Texas, just down the road, for amarriage day there Last weekend
in February.
This event actually is aprivate event.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It is.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
We're completely sponsored by a private
individual, but if you're in theAustin area and you really want
to come, contact us for moreinformation and we will make
sure that you get the detail ofthat.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
We'll see if some seats are available.
So the other place we're goingshortly after Austin is to Tampa
.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yes, we're heading back out to Tampa again.
That'll be on Saturday, march2nd, from 9 to 4.
So if you're in the Tampa area,we would love to have you join
us again.
We'll be presenting all newinformation.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
New material stuff we haven't presented in Tampa
before that event again March2nd.
We would sure love to see theirregistration for that event
just opened, and you can findout more about that at
IntimateCovenantcom slash Tampa,fittingly enough.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Well, matt, this episode is dropping on February
12th, two days beforeValentine's Day, and in the
Intimate Covenant world,valentine's Day is a big deal,
because Valentine's Day equalsregistration opening for our
annual marriage retreat, that'sright.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Registration opens February 14th.
That is Valentine's Day.
Hopefully everybody is familiarwith that and if you're a
Patreon subscriber, you alreadyknow this because you've already
been informed that you haveaccess to early registration.
So we're happy for our Patreonmembers to take advantage of
that.
If you're a Patreon member, youhave a guaranteed spot.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
If you want to come, we will make sure that you get
to come Love our Patreon membersand the monthly support that
they provide for the IntimateCovenant podcast and Intimate
Covenant.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Yeah, everything that we could do, everything.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Intimate Covenant.
So that's our way of thankingPatreon subscribers.
We do expect this retreat tosell out again, and so we just
love giving the perk to Patreonsubscribers of registering early
, yeah make sure you get in.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
So we do also want to announce at this time our theme
.
We have decided on a theme forthe retreat, and that theme is
desire, yes, desire.
So, as we're wording it, wewant to ignite the emotional and
(05:32):
physical passion in yourmarriage, and that will be the
purpose and the theme for theretreat this year.
Our plan is to really confrontthe challenges to maintaining
closeness in marriage, and thenwe want to try to offer some
biblical principles and alongwith our own personal experience
, so that couples can helpovercome those obstacles that so
(05:55):
commonly get in the way ofmaintaining and igniting
intimacy.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah, so the title of this year's theme desire.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I loved the way you say that.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Oh, did you?
Did you appreciate that?
Well, it might make some of youwonder if our material is just
going to be solely focused onsex.
We recognize that for some ofyou, you might be thinking well,
that would be amazing.
The other of you are thinking Iam not coming just for that
reason we get it.
(06:26):
So we just wanted to assure.
I mean, last year's theme wascovenant stories, right, and
that felt like a nice safe title.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Kind of tame.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Kind of tame, but we wanted to.
When we landed on the namedesire, we love it because we
really think it's gonna capturewhat all we're gonna do with the
retreat.
But we recognize that mightscare some people away, and so
we want to assure you that we,while we are going to be
(06:57):
discussing how we can increaseour desire for physical intimacy
, that will not be the onlything that we're talking about.
We will take part indiscussions that deal with all
realms of intimacy, not justtalking about sex.
We plan to explore how we canincrease desire for intimacy in
(07:18):
all areas of our marriage.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Right, absolutely.
So.
While we're talking aboutphysical intimacy, certainly and
that's really where the podcastis kind of landed in terms of
what we tend to focus on withthe marriage relationship,
that's not what our live eventsare typically about.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Nobody, not even us, want to sit and talk about sex
for six straight hours a day.
So, and more importantly,that's really not the point
anyway, even with our podcast,as we're gonna talk about even
today, where we kind of come atthis through the lens of sexual
intimacy, but we're reallytrying to talk about the entire
(07:58):
relationship and that's whatwe're gonna talk about.
So, most importantly, what wehope to spur in the process of
the fullness of that weekend isto start the conversations that
are needed between you and yourspouse so that you guys can
build and co-create thisintimacy in all of the areas of
(08:21):
your marriage.
Right, Not just sexual intimacy, but all the realms of your
marriage.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right and within that , we're gonna dig in deeper to
this idea of a pursuer responderdynamic, and that's something
our regular listeners are quitefamiliar with.
We've used that language for awhile now.
But I think what we would liketo focus on is how we can better
define our individual roles andhow I, as an individual,
(08:50):
contribute to this dynamic in myrelationship and how I can
maximize the part that I play increating oneness, whether I'm a
pursuer or a responder.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Right, and again, that's kind of something we hit
on kind of every time we have anevent.
But as you and I kind ofconsidered what we wanted to
really cover this time, wereally thought we really wanted
to make that a more importantfocus and really dig into some
of the nuances of this wholepursuer responder dynamic.
(09:23):
So we have some fresh ideas, wehave some new directions that
we kind of want to take this,and so we're really excited to
flesh that out over the next fewmonths, while we're put
together.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
I think for us, one reason that we're so drawn to
this pursuer responder languageis because that was a huge
paradigm shift within ourmarriage when we were able to
take our relationship and put itwithin that lens.
It really helped us betterunderstand our roles and,
frankly, every time that we talkabout the pursuer responder, we
(10:00):
get a lot of feedback from it,because we know it resonates
with you all as well.
So we really thought well, let'stake that and turn it into an
entire retreat.
But don't worry, if you'velistened to us for a long time,
if you've been around from thevery beginning, like you were
just saying, I think we've gotsome new, fresh approach to it.
(10:21):
So, even if you've heardeverything we've ever said about
pursuer responder, our prayeris that you will be able to walk
away from the retreat havinglearned something more.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Absolutely, and that's a little bit about what
this episode is about is kind ofdigging into some of the nuance
, so maybe you'll get a littleforetaste.
Maybe that's the point of thisepisode there you go.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
It's like a foreplay episode for the retreat Matt.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Wow, I see what you did there.
Are you impressed?
See what you did there.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So we're going to offer practical and realistic
advice for reigniting passionateromance in all realms of your
relationship, and that meansspiritually, mentally,
emotionally and sexually,because-.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yes, even your spiritual relationship should be
passionate and romantic.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Right.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
And maybe that's part of what we'll explore when we
get to the retreat time.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
So we'll have some fresh ideas and new directions
that we want to take it, and ourgoal every year is to present
something that will be relevantand challenging for everyone
that attends.
Whether you've come to everysingle retreat we've ever put,
out there.
This will be our seventh-.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Seventh annual.
Matt.
Seventh annual.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
I knew we would keep going this long.
Or if maybe you've never cometo any of them, whether you've
listened to all of our podcastepisodes or this is your very
first one, whether you've beenmarried a month, a year, a
decade, lots of decades.
Whatever it is, we endeavor toput together a retreat that is
(11:55):
relevant to all.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
And refreshing, and refreshing.
So if all that sounds excitingto you, get online.
You can find more informationabout the retreat and you can
register at intimatecovenantcom.
Slash retreat.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
All right.
So, in light of our opening ofregistration for the annual
retreat, like you said just aminute ago, we wanted to cover a
topic that's related to thegeneral theme that we'll be
covering at the retreat.
So we received this email froma listener, from a wife, and I'm
gonna read it and then we'llkind of dive into it a little
(12:30):
bit.
Can't wait.
She says hello, I've listenedto all your episodes.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
Whoa.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yay.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Have you listened to all of our episodes?
I may.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
She goes on to say thank you for all that you do.
You've helped my marriage andmyself in many ways.
However, lately I seem to behaving more and more questions
about the pursuer-responderrelationship for sexual and
emotional intimacy.
Let's start first with myconfusion over the sexual
pursuer-responder dynamic.
I can really see how helpful itis, but what I cannot see is
(13:05):
how my love and I fit into theseroles consistently.
For us, these roles seem tochange from week to week or even
day to day, for a variety ofreasons.
Number one the natural monthlychanges in my hormones, since my
body hasn't gotten the memothat we're not having any more
kids.
I love how she praises that.
(13:25):
And number two, changes instress levels to do with life,
kids, work, family, the usual.
And then, number three,sometimes just diet and exercise
changes.
Her question is is it normalthat we flip-flop these roles so
often?
Well, I guess it doesn't matterbecause it's normal for us.
(13:49):
So I would love some clarityand guidance on how to better
navigate these ever-changingroles so we can grow in our
sexual intimacy, like whoinitiates if we both are
pursuing so many great questions?
I love how she lays out heremail and she herself lists some
of the reasons she thinks thatthings might change their
(14:14):
pursuer responder dynamic.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Clearly she's thought about this.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
She has.
I love how she just flat-outsays well, it doesn't matter if
it's normal for everybody else.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
It's normal for us.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
So the basis of her email is okay.
If this is our normal, what dowe do about it?
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Right, right.
So she's listening to everysingle episode.
Let me just say, if you, as alistener, have listened to every
single episode, we want to hearfrom you.
Send us an email and we'regoing to send you something
special.
Send us an email at feedback atintimate covenant dot com, or a
podcast at intimate covenantdot com.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Yeah, we love hearing from you guys in that way.
So, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Thank you for listening, for sure, and so,
because you've listened everyepisode, we owe you a response
to your questions, and so we'rehappy to do so.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
That's right.
So she is familiar with thepursuer responder dynamic and
she's asking us to dig into someof the nuances of it.
But, matt, maybe somebody'slistening.
Who's thinking?
What are you guys talking about?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, so I think it's worth reviewing at least, or
maybe laying out just the basicconcepts of what are we even
talking about with this pursuerresponder thing?
And so the simple way toexplain this is that in every
aspect of your marriage there isa pursuer and a responder.
Okay, so specifically, weusually talk about this in with
(15:41):
respect to there being a sexualpursuer and responder and an
emotional pursuer and responder,and you may be the pursuer in
one aspect of your relationshipand the responder in another
aspect of your relationship, butin every realm of intimacy and
every realm of your relationshipthere is a pursuer and a
responder.
So, briefly defining, then thepursuer is the one who assumes
(16:06):
the role of initiating that'stype of connection.
So if I'm the sexual pursuer, Iam the one who most commonly or
most often is the one who'sgoing to initiate sexual
connection, and that's becausesexual connection to the sexual
pursuer is something that ishighly valued.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Right, okay, they put a lot of value on that realm of
intimacy, and so they, bynature, then, are the one who is
seeking connection first andforemost.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
So they're typically the one who is going to initiate
that type of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah.
So then the responder is theone who is burdened to either
accept or reject those bids forconnection.
Often that, their way ofconnecting is not necessarily
through that realm of intimacy,and so it is upon them whether
to respond positively ornegatively to the pursuer, as
(17:09):
they're initiating.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Sure, and to be clear , it's not always a black and
white issue, and that's kind ofwhat we're going to flesh out as
we kind of answer this questiona little bit more, and it's
something that often will canchange in the course of the
relationship.
Again, as this listener ispointing out, and as we're going
to flesh out as we kind ofendeavor through this.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah, I'm excited to go through this one because I
think you know, like we said atthe beginning, like the pursuer
responder, just that mindset,understanding that dynamic was
super helpful for us as webetter understood our roles.
And because we think it, weknow from hearing from all of
you all that it's helpful foryou too.
(17:53):
We revert back to that, we usethat a lot, but we don't often
get the chance to really diginto the nuances.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
There are always nuances.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It's not as black and white as sometimes.
I think we have presented itfor most for every couple, I
should say that way.
So there, there is definitelydifferent ways this plays out in
different marriages.
So her question of are wenormal?
Well, yes, it actually isnormal for the pursuer and
(18:28):
responder roles to change.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Sure, and sometimes that change happens over a long
period of time and sometimes, asthis listener is pointing out,
it's something that changes withsome frequency and the reason
for the change is the shift ofimportance in each realm of
connection for each individual.
So it may be due to yourindividual shift in focus, in
(18:54):
other words, for whateverreasons, for, for example, if
she's using the example ofsexual intimacy, so we'll go
with that realm, but thishappens in every other realm of
intimacy.
But, for example, in her case,because of changing
circumstances, her shift infocus waxes and wanes in terms
(19:15):
of her sexual desire, and so orit could be that your spouse is
also changing in their level ofdesire or interest or focus on
that same particular realm ofintimacy.
So if your focus is going up oryour partner's focus is going
down, then that's potentiallygoing to flip-flop the
(19:35):
difference in your desire, thediscrepancy in your desires.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Right.
So there might be times whereyou feel like you are more
taking on that pursuer role andother times you feel much more
of a responder in that realm ofintimacy.
I think if the roles don'tentirely reverse in your
relationship, then it's almostinevitable that the gap in your
levels of desire will changesignificantly one way or another
(20:03):
.
Yeah sure.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I mean the difference in your desires for whatever
that realm of intimacy is goingto be, if they're not reversing,
in other words, if you're notreversing roles entirely, there
are going to be times in yourrelationship where you're going
to be assuming, sometimes moreof a pursuer role, or less of a
pursuer role, or more of aresponder role, less of a
(20:26):
responder role.
So it's going to change, evenif it never flips.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You are at least going to have sometimes where
you're going to be displayingmore of those behaviors, or not.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Right, I mean human nature is where there are going
to be times when we are seekinga stronger connection than
others, whether that's in apursuing kind of way or a
responding kind of way.
So let's go through somereasons why your roles may
change.
You know what would causesomeone to go from feeling like
(20:57):
I'm a pursuer to now, maybe, I'ma responder.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, I think I mean in this listener with her
question answers this to someextent.
I mean she talks about thingslike hormones.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
She gets like one, two and three.
I'm a conical.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Hormones, stress and you know hormones in particular.
That can be a plus or a minusdepending on which hormones
we're talking about.
But hormones are going tochange just naturally with age,
with health problems or evenjust normal health.
With a woman's normal cyclethat's going to change her
(21:34):
hormones and her sexual desirelevels.
For some women that's a verydramatic change from week to
week.
Others it's less impactful.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
But that definitely can change your desire for
sexual connection.
It can become more or lessbased on where your hormone
levels are.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Absolutely, and there are certainly medications that
you may be taking or have beenprescribed that will also impact
your hormones and or impactyour libido in other ways.
So, yeah, there's lots ofthings that can change your
sexual desire and your desirefor sexual connection to make
(22:13):
that increased or decreased, andincluding health issues, I mean
lots of things that can changethat.
Of course, the biggest probablylibido influencer for most
people, especially for women, isstress and the stress, the way
that you are processing stressin your life.
(22:34):
She talks about quote kids,work, family, the usual yeah, I
mean that's life, right?
Life brings us stress, and theway that we are processing that,
the way that we're able tohandle it and how much of it is
we're dealing with at a timewill certainly affect our sexual
desire.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Well, and the age.
I mean, if you are a family, awife, mom especially that have
little children, that willgreatly influence your sexual
desire compared to when yourchildren get older, because,
frankly, they just require somuch more physical demand, which
(23:12):
influences everything, and sodefinitely those are different
ways that can, and that'sobviously not an exhaustive list
, but different things can causeyou to desire sexual connection
more or less, and the same istrue for emotional connection.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Yeah, we don't think about this as much when we talk
about this desire gap between apursuer and a responder.
But emotional connection canwax and wane.
Your desire for emotionalconnection can wax and wane, and
one reason for that I mean kidsare the problem for every
aspect of marriage.
So why wouldn't they affectyour emotional connection?
(23:52):
But if you're getting emotionalfulfillment simply from raising
kids and being around kids allthe time, then it would
certainly.
That certainly can take itstoll on your marriage If the
emotional fulfillment you'regetting from your kids becomes a
substitute or the connectionthat you should be seeking with
(24:13):
your spouse.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Right and the kids aren't the only way that you can
substitute that.
I mean you could besubstituting your need for or
desire for emotional connectionwith your spouse, with friends.
You know, if you have allowedyour friendships to have
stronger priority in your lifethan your relationship with your
spouse, you're gonna fillnaturally then a sense of
(24:39):
fulfillment from thoserelationships that will affect
the kind of connection you'relooking for from your spouse.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
So you know again the other.
I guess the other side of thisis sometimes you may lose a
little bit of that desire forinitiating emotional connection,
because the emotionalconnection that you're getting
is perhaps healthier or moresatisfying.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
That's a good point, like it may be that you know at
one point of your relationshipyou were really seeking and
maybe seeking in an unhealthyway a connection, maybe because
you felt a sense of scarcity.
Maybe you felt a sense of youknow I have to grab on to all
(25:31):
that I can get.
If your relationship has gottenhealthier, it's actually gonna
end up feeling like I'm notseeking that as much because
you're naturally you're just atthat point.
You're more filled by yourconnection and so there may be
less dependency on your spousethat you were trying to use to
soothe anxiety.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Right, exactly, a mental health professional would
call that moving from asituation of codependency to
more of a secure attachmentstyle, but we're not gonna get
too geeked out on that kind oflanguage Now.
That said, your roles maychange.
(26:12):
Your levels of desire for thesekinds of connections may change
, and there are some reasons whythose roles will change, like
we've talked about.
But I think something to really, I guess, first emphasize is
most of the time, this is notreally a problem, and I guess I
(26:33):
want to make sure this listenerunderstands it.
It's not necessarily a problemthat your roles are changing
from time to time, or evenfrequently, and this is
especially true in a couple thatis relatively closely matched
in terms of their relativedesire for whatever this
particular type of intimacymight be.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, we tend to kind of think of this as, like you
know, a pursuer and responderare far apart and almost
opposite one another.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, there's-.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
And it can certainly be that.
But there can also berelationships in which both
partners have almost a similaror same amount of pursuit of
desire, in both responsive andpursuing desire.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, opposites attract, yes, but it doesn't
mean you have to be opposite inevery single realm of your life.
And so it is perfectly feasibleand reasonable to recognize
that there are some couples.
When they get together, atleast at some point in their
life, their sexual desire may beclose to equal, or their
emotional desire may be close toequal, and if that's the case,
(27:45):
it doesn't take much of a changein either individual for those
roles to sometimes reversethemselves, as one person is
gaining or losing more or lessinterest in that particular type
of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Right, I mean most couples.
The gap between pursuer andresponder roles is significant
enough that one spouse tends tojust assume that sexual
responder role and the otherwill assume the sexual pursuer
role for the vast majority oftheir lives together, maybe all
of their life together, right.
Right, and that might be thesame.
(28:21):
It's true, can be true foremotional relationship.
But while this stereotype isthe norm, maybe it's certainly
not unusual for a couple to bejust closely matched in their
desire for sexual or emotionalintimacy, and so that may be the
case for this listener, andmaybe it's just a matter of
saying, okay, and I think shewas kind of getting there right
(28:44):
Like, are we normal?
Well, it doesn't matter,because it's normal for us.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Sure, and how do?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
we do this the best.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, and if it's working for them and I think
that's maybe where we're gettingto if it's working for them,
then there may not be anythingthat requires repair.
So I guess what I'm getting atis labeling yourself or labeling
your spouse necessarily as apursuer or a responder In my
mind is far less important thanjust noticing or acknowledging
(29:13):
whether or not there is healthy,frequent pursuit and response
in the relationship as a whole.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Right, I mean as long as, as a couple, someone is
making bids for connection andthe other is responding to those
bids for connection, then itreally makes no difference who
was doing which or how often.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
So we don't ever want these names, the titles, if you
will, of pursuer and responder,to get in the way.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right.
I mean we use the pursuer andresponder labels to kind of help
identify that there are twosides to every connection and
somebody has to be playing therole of the initiator and
someone has to be playing therole of the responder.
But to me it's not thatimportant who's doing what, as
(30:06):
long as it's happening.
So if you're an emotionalpursuer one day and you're an
emotional responder on anotherday, no problem, Just keep
making those bids and just keeplistening for those bids and
playing your role in the dynamicas it's happening.
Just recognize the importancethat there are both sides of the
(30:29):
equation and both sides have tobe working for there to be
healthy, positive interactionand building of intimacy.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Right.
And another reason that rolesmay change is that one or both
of you begin to appreciate andeven leverage the fact that all
realms of intimacy in yourmarriage are connected.
Yes, and this has very muchbeen the story of our marriage.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Oh yeah, I mean, for example, the more that our
relationship has matured, I havelearned that, even though my
nature makes me an emotionalresponder, that's just kind of
naturally who I am and how I'mbuilt as an emotional responder.
I am now, though, much morewilling and much more eager to
(31:15):
initiate emotional connectionsRight, and I think that's
probably for a couple of reasons.
One I've come to appreciate andenjoy emotional connection.
I love it more, and Iappreciate the value of the
closeness that is built fromintimate conversations and being
(31:38):
vulnerable, and so I've becomemore comfortable with emotional
vulnerability.
So, therefore, I'm less likelyto withdraw, and in fact, I'm
even more likely to sometimesinitiate a deep conversation on
my own.
Now, that probably has to dowith a couple of reasons, at
least a couple.
(31:59):
One reason I can think of,though, is that one reason I'm
more comfortable with that partof the relationship is because I
have grown to trust thesecurity of our relationship, so
the outcome of thoseconversations is less in doubt,
so I'm more comfortable, so I'mable to put myself out there and
(32:19):
be more vulnerable, and I'vealso done some personal work in
trying to grow and expand my ownemotional capacity, so I've
taken on some responsibilitymyself to grow myself in that
realm of relationships ingeneral and specifically in my
marriage.
And then, secondly, I've alsolearned that, even though I'm a
(32:42):
sexual pursuer, it's the deepemotional connection that makes
sex better.
So I've recognized that agenuine investment and a sincere
pursuit in the emotionalrelationship is actually an
investment also in the sexualrelationship, because they're
(33:04):
inseparable.
So, as I've learned that if I,if I put myself out there
emotionally, it benefits mesexually, and so if I'm a sexual
pursuer, that's a win-win forme.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Right, thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I'm just sitting here listening to you say all that
and thinking how far we've come.
Oh man Because this iscertainly not where we were 20
years ago.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
And that's why we're sharing, because we hope that
this Exactly we are walking thisjourney, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
So, and you know, I, as a sexual responder, and most
sexual responders in a healthymarriage, will also have this
same arc of growth with respectto their sexual relationship.
And so for me, as a sexualresponder, when I learned to
(33:52):
trust our relationship and Ibegan truly valuing the benefit
of a thriving sexualrelationship for both of us,
right, I gained a just a greaterand deeper appreciation for our
sex life as a whole, which alsoplayed into me having a
(34:13):
stronger sexual desire.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
And while I will never likely become the primary
sexual pursuer in our marriage,I've grown more comfortable in
sharing some of that pursuerrole, just from the standpoint
of learning to even initiatesexual connection myself, right
Because I see the beauty of therole that our sexual, our
(34:41):
physical intimacy plays in ourwhole relationship.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
And, just like you're saying, you recognize how much
deeper a sexual relationship iswhen there's an emotional
connection.
Vice versa, if I want to have adeep and real emotional
connection with you, I know thata sexual connection plays a
(35:06):
huge part of that, just likespiritual connection plays a big
part of that.
Right, it's just this learningthat all of it works together.
And when you learn toappreciate that, when both of
you start learning to appreciatethat, it takes the pressure off
.
And so what may seem like I'mnot pursuing as strongly, I'm
(35:29):
not having to respond asstrongly, it might just be that
there's less pressure from oneor both of you.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yeah, absolutely Well .
So that's our vulnerable bit inthe episode, so you'll never
know how this all happens withthe details.
But we do think it's importantto give you a little bit of
glimpse, kind of how this atleast works in a general sense,
because I think you'll find thatsame kind of growth in your own
(35:57):
relationship, or at least wewant that to be something that
you can pursue in yourrelationship.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Right.
So it's not always an importantsign if your roles are changing
.
It's not necessarily a markerof anything problematic in your
relationship.
It may just represent naturalor harmless variations or cycles
.
But, sometimes it is animportant indicator.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
There are some reasons to at least be aware
that it could be somethingproblematic in your relationship
if these roles are changing.
And, most importantly, I thinkit's a problem if it means that
one of you is just simplywithdrawing your investment from
the relationship.
(36:43):
If one of you was a pursuer andsuddenly you're not, and that's
because you've withdrawn yourpursuit, because you just don't
care anymore, or you just stopresponding because you just are
checking out or just gettinglazy, perhaps then the other of
you is going to be left to takeon that role of pursuit in all
(37:07):
the realms of intimacy and,generally speaking, if that
becomes the case, that can be areally important sign that
something is unhealthy in yourrelationship.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Right and that one spouse stops pursuing because of
constant rejection.
It's no longer worth it to themto be vulnerable in their
pursuit because it just hurtstoo much and ultimately what
that might lead to is themfinding fulfillment elsewhere,
and I mean emotionally orsexually.
(37:39):
If you're constantly shut downand criticized and told you know
you're too much.
Yeah, you're too much by yourspouse, then at some point most
people will stop trying, and sothat may be that you know that
pursuer is just feeling a senseof constant rejection, and it
(38:01):
could be that sometimes a spousestops responding because they
feel like they can never do itgood enough.
There's just a sense of failureI give and then my pursuer asks
for more like that.
It's whatever.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
They're never satisfied.
They're never content.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yes, Right and ultimately that might be driving
a responder to look forfulfillment elsewhere,
themselves, emotionally andsexually.
And so you do have to pay closeattention to what might be
feeding into this dynamic.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
Absolutely, and there are lots of scenarios and we
would never try to name them allwhere a role change could
signal a serious problem in therelationship, but they all boil
down, I think, to one importantfactor and that is that one
spouse, in these situationswhere it's where it could
indicate something dangerous tothe relationship, it's when one
(38:56):
spouse or both spouses stopresponding, when there is
pursuit without response, onwhatever side of that you might
be on, if there's pursuitwithout response, that is a big,
huge red flag with strobelights and fireworks.
(39:17):
That is a huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
It's time to get some help.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah.
So I think, summing it all up,it's less important who fulfills
each role in the pursuerresponder dynamic, as long as
there is frequent and healthypursuit and response.
So what that means for all ofus is that we each have a
(39:41):
responsibility to initiate bidsfor connection and be eager to
respond when our spouse isreaching out.
Keep reaching out.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
And keep listening and paying attention to our
spouse, as they're reaching outto us as well.
Precisely Well said All right,Matt, give us our wrap up.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
First of all, plan to join us for the seventh annual
marriage retreat in HoustonTexas.
It is September 19th throughthe 21st.
Registration opens onValentine's Day.
Happy Valentine's Day everybody.
Secondly, a shift in the rolesof pursuers and responders is
common in all relationships.
(40:21):
Sometimes these role changessignal something detrimental to
the relationship.
Often they simply representtypical patterns of growth or
seasonal shifts in therelationship.
In a healthy marriage, labelingwho is the pursuer and who is
the responder is far lessimportant than making sure that
(40:42):
there is frequent and healthypursuit and response in all
realms of your intimacy.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Now it's time to grab your spouse in your Bible and
head to your kitchen table tohave the conversation about how
the roles of pursuing andresponding have played out in
your marriage.
Which role do you most oftensee yourself in?
Most importantly, do you makeconnection in all realms of
intimacy a priority and if not,what needs to change?
Speaker 1 (41:11):
We want to hear your feedback.
Certainly want to hear yourfeedback on this episode.
We would love to hear yourquestions, your concerns.
What did we leave out?
What did we forget?
Contribute to the conversationby emailing us podcast at
intimate covenant dot com, orsubmit an anonymous feedback
form or questions by going toour website intimate covenant
(41:33):
dot com slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and your support.
Thanks, especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
We love you.
If the message of intimatecovenant has blessed your
marriage, we would love to haveyou join us.
(41:56):
Subscribe at patreon dot com.
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Until next time, keep striving and don't settle.
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