July 14, 2025 • 44 mins
Matt and Jenn explore how ancient Greek philosophy has shaped modern Christian attitudes toward sexuality, creating an unbiblical culture of shame and stigma around sexual desire.
• Plato's dualism in the 4th century BC separated body and soul, viewing bodily desires as inferior to spiritual pursuits
• Stoicism further emphasized suppression of passions, teaching that sex was only acceptable within marriage and solely for procreation
• The Apostle Paul directly confronted these philosophies, calling those who forbid marriage and require abstinence "liars" devoted to "deceitful spirits"
• Paul teaches in 1 Timothy 4 that everything created by God is good and should be received with thanksgiving
• The biblical solution to misdirected desire isn't suppression but redirection toward what truly fulfills
• Proverbs 5 instructs husbands to "be intoxicated" by their wives' love—language of abundance, not restraint
• Sexual desire isn't worldly or dangerous but God-designed to teach us about our need for connection
• Modern Christians must examine where their beliefs about sexuality come from—Scripture or Greek philosophy
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Intimate Covenant | Matt & Jenn Schmidt
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, jen want to talk about Plato and Stoic
philosophy.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
It's all Greek to me.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Great.
Today on the podcast, we'retalking about how ancient Greek
philosophy has influenced ourmodern Christian attitudes and
biases about sex.
Let's do it.
Welcome friends.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome.
We're Matt and Jen, and this isthe Intimate Covenant podcast,
where we believe the Bible andgreat married sex both belong on
the kitchen table.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
That's right.
We're talking about godlymarriage and hot sex with
emotionally fulfilling oneness,and we are so grateful to have
you joining us for this anotherepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
That's right.
Thanks for joining us.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, you can go to our
website, IntimateCovenantcom,and we would always love to hear
from you.
You can email us at podcast atIntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So today on the podcast, as we maybe alluded to
in the intro, we're talkingabout Greek philosophy, Riveting
.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sounds riveting, riveting, sounds riveting,
riveting conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
In reality, the intro is really there to pique your
interest, of course, but I hopewe're going to make it more
interesting than a Philosophy101 course.
That's right, but before we getto the content, we of course
want to remind you it is gettingdown to go time for the annual
retreat, in terms of go time toregister.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's right, we still have some available spots.
They are filling, but we dohave some available spots, so if
you would love to join us,now's the time.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yes, we would love to have you.
The retreat, of course, isSeptember 18th through the 20th,
that is, a Thursday nightthrough Saturday afternoon.
Among other exciting thingshappening at the retreat, we are
so proud and excited toannounce that we will have a
live musical guest performanceby none other than Trey Keller.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, we talked about this on our episode a couple of
weeks ago, super excited tohave Trey joining us.
He's done a lot of things inthe musical world.
His voice has been heard on howmany Like it was a crazy high
number.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Something like six billion times his voice has been
downloaded or streamed, sothat's pretty impressive and
we're very excited to have himjoining us and performing.
It will be an incredible set oflove songs and just some fun
feel-good songs to kick off theretreat, so we're very excited
about that.
We are talking this year at theretreat about oneness.
(02:42):
In fact, that's the title forthe retreat.
The theme for the retreat isOne.
We're talking about learninghow to grow closer together in
all aspects of your relationship, and so we're really excited
about this material.
We're excited about some of theideas we have to put it all
together.
In fact, jen and I just gotback from a little weekend to
(03:05):
really dig down into preparingsome of that content.
So we're just every time welook at it, every time we work
more with it, we're getting moreand more excited about how
we're presenting it.
A lot of it is foundationalkind of material, but the
presentation will be differentand I think it will be at a
level of depth that will beappropriate for you.
(03:26):
Whether you've been married twodays or two years or 20 years,
there will still be somethingthere, challenging for you to
dig into and to wrestle withyour spouse with we write the
retreat material.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
We try to balance it to where those that have come to
every single retreat can stillcome and feel like they get
something out of it that's newand fresh, and those that have
never been can come and get thesame.
So I think we're doing thatagain this year, and so we
really hope that you could beable to join us too.
If you'd like to learn moreabout the retreat or to register
, go to our website,intimatecovenantcom slash
(04:09):
retreat, and that will get youall the information.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yes, and, of course, email us if you have questions
that can't be answered on thewebsite.
Okay, so again, today's episodereally more than just Greek
philosophy.
This episode is really aboutthis culture of sexual shame and
taboo that surrounds the topicof sexuality, particularly in
(04:37):
the church.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Exactly, and it comes .
The idea for this comes from anemail that we received, so I'll
read that email to us.
It says this your podcast isgreat.
Oh well, thank you very much.
Thank you for what you do.
I've tried to listen to a fewother sex podcasts as well.
They sometimes have interestingtopics, but most of them end up
(04:57):
being somewhat vulgar or theyaren't done well.
We do need words to describesexual things or body parts, so
it's not really the words used,but more.
I don't enjoy the general toneof those podcasts.
They clearly have anon-biblical focus in how they
discuss it all, or it's filledwith filth and perverted topics
(05:19):
too, so I have stopped trying tolisten to those.
I appreciate your godly focus,even when discussing highly
sexual topics.
Goes on to say when I've heardit discussed among Christians,
it's almost like it's a negative, almost like it's worldly or
too sex-focused.
(05:41):
And then he asks this questionso why does it seem so
stigmatized to consider new waysto feel pleasure?
You do great with topics thatare sometimes stigmatized and in
some ways all of these are.
Either they seem kind ofextreme or maybe it's
(06:01):
embarrassing or shameful to talkabout for some reason.
I know you have touched on someof these before, but there are
likely other topics too thatseem stigmatized, especially by
Christians.
I think it's great when youbring these kinds of things up,
so it's actually a longer emailand so we've paraphrased and
(06:25):
summarized it just to really getto the heart of what this
reader is asking.
He does go on to name somespecific sexual practices which
he believes have been unjustlyavoided like we just seem to
condemn them, or many Christiansseem to condemn them, and so he
(06:47):
talks about that.
But his general question iswhere does the stigma of talking
about sex come from?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Well, I would agree with this reader and I think
many of us have probablyexperienced something similar
that there is a culture of shameand stigma surrounding sex,
especially in the church.
I mean just looking around,like the idea of celibacy in the
Catholic priesthood to thePuritans in the 16th century, to
(07:19):
even the purity culture of the1990s.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right, which we've done, some episodes kind of
digging into that.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Exactly.
I mean, there have been so manyreligious influences throughout
Western culture which havereally taken sort of this
outspoken, sometimes very severeview of sex and sexual desire.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And I think for a lot of us who have grown up in a
Christian culture, so to speak,we think that this is biblical,
like in our minds.
This goes hand in hand.
I think we, often, many of usmaybe I'm just speaking for
myself I did think that therewas somehow some sense of shame
(08:04):
tied to sexuality, and that thatcame from the Bible itself.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right, right, and I think what we want to try to do
with this episode and at thispoint we're probably going to
turn this into a couple ofepisodes is to take a little bit
deeper look into history andsome of the cultural and
religious views of sexualitythroughout history.
(08:30):
Now, to do that in real depth,to do a real deep dive, would
certainly require maybe the restof the year of episodes.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
We are not going to do that.
We're not doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
But I do think it's worth recognizing, and I think
this is really where we want tokind of land.
All of this is to recognizethat not all of our, either
individually or our as inculturally, or when I say our,
perhaps even if we're justtalking about the religious
world or the church, it is worthrecognizing that not all of our
(09:06):
perspectives, not all of ourassumptions and not all of our
opinions about how to handlesexuality are based in Scripture
alone.
Our modern, quote-unquoteChristian ideas about sex are a
view of scripture through thelens of both modern and ancient
(09:27):
secular philosophy, ancientsociopolitical ideology and even
the evolving Western culturesthat have influenced kind of who
we are and where we are today.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And that's what I think we don't really recognize
where our assumptions and ourperspectives and our opinions
are coming from.
So it's worth digging into,it's worth saying what does the
Bible really truly say or notsay about sexuality and how we
should approach that topicindividually and collectively as
(10:05):
a church.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the hardest things toknow and to see and to recognize
about oneself are our biases,and that's what I want to try to
maybe lift the curtain on alittle bit is to see and to
examine and challenge.
Why do we think the way that wethink about sexuality in
(10:27):
particular?
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So I think, without getting too academic, matt, or
too philosophical, I think it'sworth exploring the historical
influences of our modernChristian approach to sexuality.
So this is going to be a littlebit of a different episode than
what we normally put out.
(10:49):
You're probably going to hearMatt talking a little bit more
than me, because he's the onewho's really been digging in
deep and to taking some time toreally parse this out for us.
But I think this is going to bea great couple of episodes to
help us reframe again.
Why is it?
I think, the way that I think.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, and why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we teach what we believe?
And again, it is critical, inevery facet of our worldview,
that we would be willing toacknowledge where our biases
might be and especially, whereare our non-biblical influences.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Right.
We should always be willing tochallenge why we believe, what
we believe and how it is that wegot there.
The challenge of that is notwrong.
That is how you develop andbuild your faith, right.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You should be able to give a defense right.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Why do we do what we do Right and then, once we've
examined that, it is so criticalthen to go back and to hold on
to what Scripture says yes, andthen be willing to let go of
everything else that doesn'tserve us.
Let go of everything else thatis especially contrary to what
(12:07):
scripture teaches, that iscontrary to the attitude that
God has, in this case, aboutsexuality.
So most of us don't realize howmuch our core beliefs and how
much our attitudes are shaped bysocietal influences, and those
societal influences have in turnbeen influenced by centuries of
(12:28):
, in some cases, non-biblicalphilosophy or other ideology
that comes from a secularworldview.
The historical Christianapproach to sexuality, which
includes tendencies towardssilence and taboo and shame and
(12:49):
moral regulation of sexuality,the historical Christian
approach, is definitely aproduct of historical layering,
and it is layering that goes allthe way back to ancient Greece,
maybe even further back thanthat, but at the very least
we're going to start ourconversation with ancient Greek
philosophy, and I think most ofus will be a little surprised to
(13:14):
realize that our modernthinking about sexuality has
roots even going back to thefourth century.
Yeah, we still think like.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Greeks, we think we're so modern and so with it,
no.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So we're going to start by acknowledging these
influences, greeks and beyond,and hopefully some of us can be
compelled to shift our mindsettoward a view of sexuality that
is purely biblical and lets goof the Greek philosophy and the
(13:52):
other secular influences as wego through this.
So, with your indulgence, wewant to take an episode or two
to kind of broadly investigatesome of these influences, and
again, we're going to start withthe ancient Greeks in this
episode.
At some point we're going tomove on to other influences,
like Augustine and the earlyCatholic Church as it had
(14:16):
influence through the MiddleAges.
We're going to see howProtestant groups like, for
example, the Puritans in the16th century, and then how the
Victorians in the 19th centurystill influence our modern
attitudes of sexual shame.
And then more recently, in the20th century, thinkers like
(14:38):
Sigmund Freud of course had agreat deal of influence in how
we think about sex today.
And then the sexual revolutionof the 1960s of course brought
about a whole nother wave ofthinking.
That maybe well, and I thinkwhat we'll see is it both
influenced the churches thinkingabout sexuality, but also
(14:58):
influenced an extreme reactionto sexuality, starting in the
1960s that culminated mostrecently with purity culture,
like we've talked about.
So, again, these are historylessons, so to speak, but I'm no
historian, I don't even reallylike history that much, right?
But we're going to hopefully beable to look at these different
(15:25):
philosophies and, I hope, totry to point out where do they
differ with how the Bible viewssexuality?
Where do these ideas differfrom even ancient Jewish
attitudes about sexuality?
So sounds exciting, right.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I feel like you should be like hi, I'm Matt,
Welcome to my TED Talk.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, okay, so maybe history and philosophy is not
your thing.
Not your thing, right?
Jen?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
That's yes.
Don't worry, though.
The goal is not for us all tobecome sex history experts.
Nope, Like Matt is no.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
We're going to try to go light on the boring stuff,
yeah, okay, like Matt is.
No, we're going to try to golight on the boring stuff, okay,
yeah, and we're going to try tobring it all around to.
Why is this important for metoday?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And I think that's the biggest thing.
Why does this matter to metoday?
And I think what you'll see isthat you will be shocked, as
Matt has already alluded to.
You will be shocked at kind ofwhat has gone into why we think,
how we think within the broaderChristian world today when it
comes to sexuality.
(16:31):
So I think you're going to besurprised that some of the ways
we think and talk about sex inthe church today aren't actually
necessarily based on biblicalattitudes, even though we think
they are.
Yes.
All right, Matt.
So without further ado, getinto it for us.
Let's start with some ancientGreek philosophy.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, and I know if you are a regular listener, you
probably never would haveimagined that we would be
talking about ancient Greekphilosophy.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Stick with us, because it does matter.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Even and especially if you're a new listener, you're
like oh, that's a podcast aboutmarried sex.
I wonder what the topic istoday.
Ancient Greek philosophy.
Probably not ancient Greekphilosophy, but let's just dig
in, Hang with me for just likethree minutes and then we're
going to see how this influenceseven how you think about this
(17:24):
today.
We're going to see how thisinfluences even how you think
about this today.
So in the 4th century BC, therewas a guy named Plato.
Everybody's heard of Plato,right?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Not talking about the toy clay stuff Plato, plato
Plato and a whole other group ofphilosophers who we won't get
into, but Plato's the mostpopular.
One of them brought about thisthinking called dualism, and
dualism was this idea where thebody was seen as the prison of
(17:59):
the soul.
So in Plato's thinking, thesoul was primary, the soul was
most important, and the body wasthis fleshly prison, if you
will, that contained the soullines up with a biblical
(18:27):
worldview, but in other ways ithas influenced even how we think
about how the mind and the bodyand the soul are all connected.
We won't dig too deep into allof that, but let's just say,
though, that, because of thisidea of dualism, desire any
physical desire, but especiallysexual desire, or at least
including sexual desire, anykind of physical desire, was
(18:51):
associated with this lower andirrational nature of human
beings, whereas the soul,especially the soul in terms of
thought and reason and logic,all of that was seen as higher
and was seen as more divine.
In other words, the body andthings that were physical were
(19:15):
disregarded and thought of asmore animalistic, whereas the
things of the soul and thingsthat were spiritual, as it were,
were seen as closer to deity,closer to God, if you will.
And so true virtue for Plato andother dualists.
True virtue required masteryover the body.
(19:39):
Okay, now, on some level that'smaybe even consistent with what
is biblical, right, we have tohave control over our bodies,
and there is some aspect ofChristianity which embodies this
idea of self-control, right.
But this laid the groundwork,then, for dualists to begin to
(20:06):
associate sexuality withweakness or with irrationality,
where sexuality and sexualdesire was seen as inferior and
something that needed to bemastered not even just mastered,
but also even transcended.
Okay, mastered.
Not even just mastered, butalso even transcended, okay.
And so you get to.
(20:26):
So Plato again, 4th century BC.
You move the followingcenturies, the 3rd century BC
and onward, even up until thetime of Christ.
Plato and dualism evolved intothis idea of Stoicism.
And there were Stoics, therewere also Epicureans and there's
(20:50):
a lot of other kind of facetsin different directions that
Greek philosophy goes.
Again, not going to bore youwith a lot of those details, but
maybe to boil it all down,there were Stoics who emphasized
, then kind of working off ofPlato's idea of sexuality and
sexual desire and any kind ofphysical desire being weak and
(21:13):
lesser.
They began to emphasize rationalthought and self-control and
even began to emphasize andprioritize suppression of
passions.
Not just that passions weresomething that needed to be
transcended or elevated above,but even to the point of
(21:39):
suppressing passions,suppressing desires, suppressing
any kind of physical pleasure,including sexual desire,
especially sexual desire.
And so they began to hold viewsthat sex was acceptable, but
only within marriage and onlyfor procreation, not for
(22:01):
pleasure.
And so this idea that not forpleasure, and so this idea that
sex was something that was kindof necessary but something that
needed to be handled onlyoccasionally and handled only
with caution and care, andsuppressed to whatever extent
(22:22):
Stoic ideas, and you may haveheard of the term asceticism.
Asceticism is this idea ofdenial of pleasure.
So any kind of pleasure it wasthought of you were virtuous,
the more pleasures you deniedyourself.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, and this is all in the time before Christ,
right.
Correct, just to set the stagefor those of us who are not
history buffs.
This is all the thought and thecommon beliefs, if you will,
before Christ comes into theworld.
That's exactly right, becauseChristianity, so this isn't
(22:59):
coming off of Christianity atthis point is what I'm trying to
say, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It was born of Greek pagan philosophy, but
Christianity.
It's important to recognizethat Christianity is introduced
into a world that is steeped indualism and Stoicism.
So the people in the world atthe time of Christ are all
dualists.
(23:24):
They are all Stoics to someextent.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, this is the culture that they're living in.
So they're affected by it,whether or not they do or don't
fully buy in or believe it.
They're not all practicing itof course.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I mean they're obviously people are people.
They're going to behave the waythey want to behave and they're
going to be hedonistic inwhatever sense that that is
practiced in that culture.
Be hedonistic in whatever sensethat that is practiced in that
culture.
But Christianity is introducedinto a world where at least
everybody has some sense ofbelief that suppressing your
physical desires is somehownoble and virtuous.
(23:57):
And so, just like, if you'refamiliar with your Bible, you
know, especially if you've readthe book of Acts, that there
were Judaizing teachers in thefirst century.
These are Jewish people whowanted to insert and influence
the way that the Christian codesof ethics and morals were going
(24:18):
to be taught.
Just like the Judaizingteachers in the first century
threatened to kind of inserttheir own man-made regulations
on Christians, the Stoicphilosophers and the Greco-Roman
culture also threatened toimpose things like asceticism
and dualistic ideology on earlyChristianity.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Right, so Christ comes.
He's born into that world livesas a man, dies.
Church begins just setting thestage here.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, and the apostles are trying to spread
the gospel and spread godlyChristian ideals, they're
budding up against not just theJewish people who want to shape
Christianity into a Jewishreligion.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
They're also butting up against the Greco-Roman
philosophers and culture whowant to make it shapes how we
should be reading certain wordsof Paul.
Absolutely, because Paul andsome of the other apostles
(25:35):
address this very directly inthe New Testament, because this
is exactly what they were upagainst.
Think about 1 Timothy, chapter4.
Feel free to turn there if youhave your Bibles, but I'm going
to read it for you and justthink about this context of
Plato and dualism and stoicismwhen you read what Paul says to
(25:59):
Timothy.
Now, the Spirit expressly saysthat in later times, some will
depart from the faith bydevoting themselves to deceitful
spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of
liars whose consciences areseared, who forbid marriage and
require abstinence from foodsthat God created to be received
(26:22):
with thanksgiving by those whobelieve and know the truth For
everything created by God isgood.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Wow, when you read those verses in context of what
is happening culturally, itdefinitely makes it.
I don't know.
It solidifies, like what isbeing said.
It gives it more weight.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well and remember.
I mean, Timothy grew up amongGreeks, His father was a Greek,
he grew up among this culture,and so Timothy has been charged
by Paul to spread the gospelthrough this Gentile world.
But Paul tells Timothy and hesays to those who insist on
(27:18):
denying God's blessing, such assexual pleasure or food, he says
of those who want to deny thosepleasures, that those people
are liars and they are devotedto deceitful spirits and demons.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Whoa, that's a pretty serious accusation.
Paul is dead serious, thatthese people are dead wrong,
that it is not godly to denypleasure just for the sake of
denying pleasure.
Instead, paul instructs thateverything that God created is
(27:53):
good.
I mean, remember Genesis 1.31,at the end of creation, god
specifically says thateverything he created is not
just good, he says it is verygood.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Right and Paul is saying it's good and should be
received with thanksgiving,Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And again.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I mean he's talking about marriage and he is talking
about food in the same sentencethere.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Exactly there.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So sexual pleasures and physical pleasures that are
part of our being human beingmade in the image of God.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
And further.
Then he says that all thingsthat are given by God are made
holy through the word of God andthrough prayer.
We can be sure that God frownson those who deny or suppress or
degrade the blessing and thepleasure of married sex.
God not just frowns on them,but again Paul calls them
(28:55):
deceitful spirits.
He calls them liars.
If you say that what God hascreated is not good, you are a
liar.
Good, you are a liar.
And Paul also says that if amarried couple steeps their
sexual relationship in prayerand in the word of God, then
their sexual desires and theirpractices are holy and they
(29:17):
ought to be and should be andcan be enjoyed without shame.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Right, I mean just clearly.
Scripture teaches us thatexpressing our sexuality is
designed for marriage, so we'renot saying that.
This verse is saying justfreely enjoy your sexuality
anywhere and everywhere.
This is about how do we use oursexual energy within the
(29:47):
context of marriage.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, well, I think that's what he means, that if
you receive it with the Word ofGod and by prayer, in other
words, if you receive yoursexuality through the lens of
what God has planned for you andyou involve God in that
practice of your sexuality, thenit is holy Right and you ought
to be able to enjoy it and to doso with thanksgiving to God.
(30:13):
In Colossians, chapter 2, verse16, it's a very curious kind of
passage there.
We can't get into the wholecontext, but Paul actually
quotes one of the Stoicphilosophers.
When he says do not handle, donot taste, do not touch, he's
quoting some contemporaryphilosopher at the time, or at
least, at the very least, he'squoting some common cultural
(30:35):
guideline that is based on thisStoic philosophy.
In that same context, inColossians 2, he's urging his
readers to reject, quote theappearance of wisdom and to
reject, quote self-made religionthat is manifested as
asceticism.
It's manifested by what hecalls severity to the body.
(30:58):
Because he says that kind ofapproach, this approach of
self-denial and asceticism andseverity of the body, these are,
he says, of no value instopping the indulgence of the
flesh.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Is that surprising?
Is that simply denying, simplyignoring or suppressing our
desires is actually of no battle, no value in battling lust and
sin.
But isn't that exactly how wetend to teach?
How do you handle your sexualdesire, especially those to
(31:42):
unmarried people?
How do you handle that?
Well, you just deny it, youjust stop thinking about it, you
ignore it, you suppress it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
You just have to wait , just hold on and wait.
But listen, silence is not theanswer.
Suppression is not the answer.
Hiding sexual desires is notthe answer.
Pretending that we don't livewith sexual desire is not the
answer.
Refusing to speak plainly aboutsexual desire is not the answer
.
Embarrassment, shame, these arenot the answer.
This approach, paul clearly says, this kind of approach of
(32:19):
severity to the body, ofsuppressing our desires, of
ignoring our desires, this kindof approach, he says, is of no
value in stopping indulgence ofthe flesh.
What is the answer then?
Right, well, if you keepreading, if you get past
Colossians, chapter 2 and youget to Colossians chapter 3,
(32:42):
paul admonishes these Colossiansto not only put to death
earthly things.
Clearly, we have to put todeath sinful practices, but the
answer is not to get rid ofdesire.
The answer is to change whatyou desire.
It is to refocus what youdesire.
It's not to suppress yourdesire.
(33:03):
It's to instead seek the thingswhich are above, have desire
for something that is actuallyof value.
The solution to fleshly desireis to focus on something that is
godly and holy.
Again, desire is not theproblem.
Instead, we have to glorifywhat God's plan is for that
(33:25):
desire, the Bible's solution tofleshly desire is to glorify the
godly object of desire.
Again, I say this this is maybea paradigm shift.
This was a paradigm shift forme.
Might be for you too, but Iwould suggest that the problem
(33:45):
with our sexual desire is notthat we don't have enough desire
or that we have too much desire.
The problem is not that we havetoo much desire.
The problem is actually that wedon't have enough desire.
We don't have enough desire forwhat is actually real, what is
actually the purpose for ourdesire.
(34:06):
Instead, we have so littledesire, we settle for things
that aren't really healthy.
We settle for things thataren't really helpful.
We settle for things thataren't really going to be able
to fulfill us.
We don't have enough hunger forwhat is really going to fulfill
(34:27):
us.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Well, and that's where we in the church ought to
be proclaiming the beauty ofmarried sex and the joy that
exists within that expression ofsexual desire expression of
(34:49):
sexual desire which ought to bepointing us towards our desire
for intimate relationship withour true beloved, with God, and
that when we, as marriedChristians, fully embrace, live
out and proclaim that joy, thenit says to singles there's
something better, that themarriage and married sex isn't
(35:12):
the end-all be-all.
It's a metaphor for theintimacy we ought to have with
God, and singles can have thattoo.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, yeah, this is the problem with how we talk
about sex in the church.
We have, just like Plato, triedto separate the body and the
spirit.
We have tried to separate sexand spirituality.
Right, and when you do that,then sex if you only can see sex
as something that is physical,then you have no way of pointing
(35:41):
someone towards the real valuein sex, which is spiritual
connection with each other andwith God and our sexual desire,
just like our physical desirefor food, I mean, look, we don't
shame people who are hungry orthirsty.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Right, how dare you be hungry again?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Unless your hunger is driving you toward unhealthy
behavior or some unhealthyreliance on food, and so,
similarly, there's nothingabnormal or immoral about having
sexual desire right.
Contrary to Plato and contraryto the dualists, sexual desire
is not base, it's not weak, it'snot profane, it's not something
(36:21):
that needs to be overcome ortranscended.
It is God-designed, it isGod-given, it is God-blessed.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
God didn't mess up when he created us all to have
sexual desire, whether we'remarried or not.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know, I've heard some singles say before like.
I've heard some singles saybefore like why did God make me
with sexual desire when I don'thave an outlet, I don't have a
place for expression, unless I'mmarried?
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Well, he did that not on accident, but on purpose?
Yes, it is to—God gives usdesire to teach us about
something.
God gives us desire to teach usabout something, and in the
case of sexual desire, thepurpose of sexual desire is to
teach me that I need connection,that I need something more than
myself.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Now, if I only focus on the physical manifestation of
that, if I only focus on thephysical outlet for that, then
it becomes base and profane.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Whether you're married or single.
Plenty of married people lettheir married sex life become
base and profane because theymake it just about the physical.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
It's just about the orgasm, it's just about the
pleasure, it's just about memyself, Instead of becoming
about connection, something thatdraws me closer to my spouse,
something that draws me closerto God in a way that I can
receive it with thanksgiving.
If I can't be thankful, if Ican't pray to God in praise and
thankfulness for my sex life,then I shouldn't be having it
(37:59):
Right praise and thankfulnessfor my sex life then I shouldn't
be having it Right.
So, again, our physical hungerand thirst should remind us of
the living water.
Our physical hunger and thirstshould remind us of the bread of
life, from whence we receiveeternal fulfillment and from
whence we receive true life.
Again, if our food and drinkbecomes the focus instead of the
(38:23):
loving provider, then ourdesire becomes carnal and sinful
.
But instead, if we receive ourfood and drink with thanksgiving
, thanksgiving to the one whohas provided it, then our
desires are holy, then ourdesires are good, as Paul
teaches again in 1 Timothy 4,like we talked about.
(38:44):
And so, similarly, if wefulfill our sexual desires in
godly ways, if we feel oursexual desire in a way that
points us to God, the provider,to God, the one with whom we
have eternal connection, thenour sexual desires are made holy
and good.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
You know, proverbs teaches that the way that we
avoid the adulterous.
If you read chapter five inProverbs, the instructor there
is giving instruction to youngmen and he says the way that you
avoid the adulteress is not toignore your sexual desire.
That is not the advice that'sgiven in Proverbs 5.
Instead, in chapter 5, thereader is given instruction to,
(39:31):
in fact, rejoice and be filledwith delight in his wife.
He is instructed to be filledup with his wife's breasts and
to be intoxicated by her love.
Yeah, does that sound likerestraint?
Does that sound likesuppression?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
No, does that sound like shame?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Or embarrassment.
No, it's exactly the opposite.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Right, he's instructing toward excess.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yes, not restraint, it's exactly the opposite.
He's instructed to beintoxicated.
That is specificallyinstruction to take more than
you think you should, to beintoxicated to an irrational
level.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And yet do you feel like your church sometimes
teaches that sexual desire oughtto be pursued to excess in the
marriage bed?
Or is sexual desire treatedwith silence and shame Right?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Is sexual desire viewed like something dangerous
or even worldly in the way thatyour church teaches about it or
doesn't teach about it?
Do you view sexual desire asdangerous or worldly, and where
is that coming from?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Listen.
The Bible rejects dualism.
The Bible rejects stoicism, andyou should too.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Right, I mean the words of Paul and the other
apostles and New Testamentwriters were speaking into that
culture, that common teachingand belief, and we need to read
it in that context.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And very clearly and specifically about sexuality.
Very clearly and specificallyabout sexuality.
Sexuality is not at odds withspirituality.
Sexuality is not at odds withvirtue, Because God created
sexual desire and he wants tobless you with holy fulfillment
of your sexual desire so thatyou can receive it with
(41:40):
thanksgiving and holiness.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
All right.
Well, you explained Greekphilosophy, Matt, in a sex
podcast.
Well done.
Never thought we'd be here and Ithink that this again, I think
this is great to help usunderstand what challenge, why
(42:04):
is it?
I believe what I believe andjust this greater context of why
is the idea of church andmarried sex so divorced for so
many of us?
Why is it treated with so muchsilence and shame?
Where's that coming from?
So I hope you find value indigging into this.
We'll do a part two that kindof gets us a little bit more
(42:27):
into modern times.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, well, I think we're going to see there's a lot
of other ways in which we havebeen influenced, as a church and
as a culture, in how we thinkabout sexuality.
Again, that is not coming frombiblical influence.
It is coming from other places.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So, matt, give us the wrap for this part of the
episode at least Okay.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Modern religious attitudes about sex have deep
roots in ancient philosophicaland societal ideologies that
have converged over thecenturies, and so not all of our
quote religious convictions arebased on biblical concepts
about sex.
The ancient Greeks taught thatphysical desires were a sign of
(43:08):
weakness and were based oninferior virtues.
Therefore, they held thatsexual desire ought to be denied
and suppressed.
But in contrast, the Bibleteaches that sexual desire is
given by God and should beenjoyed to excess in the holy
marriage bed, with boththanksgiving and delight.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Now it's time to grab your spouse and your Bible and
head to your kitchen table tohave a conversation about your
attitudes about married sex.
Have either of you been exposedto, teaching or incorporated
attitudes that treat sexualitylike something worldly or
inferior?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
We would love to hear your feedback.
Contact us by emailing podcastat intimatecovenantcom or to
submit an anonymous feedback orquestions, go to our website,
intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and support.
Thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
(44:27):
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And please also support our affiliate businesses
who help support IntimateCovenant Links, and exclusive
discount codes to thesemarriage-centered businesses are
in the show notes.
Until next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
Hey, jen want to talk about Plato and Stoic
philosophy.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
It's all Greek to me.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Great.
Today on the podcast, we'retalking about how ancient Greek
philosophy has influenced ourmodern Christian attitudes and
biases about sex.
Let's do it.
Welcome friends.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome.
We're Matt and Jen, and this isthe Intimate Covenant podcast,
where we believe the Bible andgreat married sex both belong on
the kitchen table.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
That's right.
We're talking about godlymarriage and hot sex with
emotionally fulfilling oneness,and we are so grateful to have
you joining us for this anotherepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
That's right.
Thanks for joining us.
If you'd like to learn moreabout us, you can go to our
website, IntimateCovenantcom,and we would always love to hear
from you.
You can email us at podcast atIntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
So today on the podcast, as we maybe alluded to
in the intro, we're talkingabout Greek philosophy, Riveting
.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Sounds riveting, riveting, sounds riveting,
riveting conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
In reality, the intro is really there to pique your
interest, of course, but I hopewe're going to make it more
interesting than a Philosophy101 course.
That's right, but before we getto the content, we of course
want to remind you it is gettingdown to go time for the annual
retreat, in terms of go time toregister.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's right, we still have some available spots.
They are filling, but we dohave some available spots, so if
you would love to join us,now's the time.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yes, we would love to have you.
The retreat, of course, isSeptember 18th through the 20th,
that is, a Thursday nightthrough Saturday afternoon.
Among other exciting thingshappening at the retreat, we are
so proud and excited toannounce that we will have a
live musical guest performanceby none other than Trey Keller.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, we talked about this on our episode a couple of
weeks ago, super excited tohave Trey joining us.
He's done a lot of things inthe musical world.
His voice has been heard on howmany Like it was a crazy high
number.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Something like six billion times his voice has been
downloaded or streamed, sothat's pretty impressive and
we're very excited to have himjoining us and performing.
It will be an incredible set oflove songs and just some fun
feel-good songs to kick off theretreat, so we're very excited
about that.
We are talking this year at theretreat about oneness.
(02:42):
In fact, that's the title forthe retreat.
The theme for the retreat isOne.
We're talking about learninghow to grow closer together in
all aspects of your relationship, and so we're really excited
about this material.
We're excited about some of theideas we have to put it all
together.
In fact, jen and I just gotback from a little weekend to
(03:05):
really dig down into preparingsome of that content.
So we're just every time welook at it, every time we work
more with it, we're getting moreand more excited about how
we're presenting it.
A lot of it is foundationalkind of material, but the
presentation will be differentand I think it will be at a
level of depth that will beappropriate for you.
(03:26):
Whether you've been married twodays or two years or 20 years,
there will still be somethingthere, challenging for you to
dig into and to wrestle withyour spouse with we write the
retreat material.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
We try to balance it to where those that have come to
every single retreat can stillcome and feel like they get
something out of it that's newand fresh, and those that have
never been can come and get thesame.
So I think we're doing thatagain this year, and so we
really hope that you could beable to join us too.
If you'd like to learn moreabout the retreat or to register
, go to our website,intimatecovenantcom slash
(04:09):
retreat, and that will get youall the information.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yes, and, of course, email us if you have questions
that can't be answered on thewebsite.
Okay, so again, today's episodereally more than just Greek
philosophy.
This episode is really aboutthis culture of sexual shame and
taboo that surrounds the topicof sexuality, particularly in
(04:37):
the church.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Exactly, and it comes .
The idea for this comes from anemail that we received, so I'll
read that email to us.
It says this your podcast isgreat.
Oh well, thank you very much.
Thank you for what you do.
I've tried to listen to a fewother sex podcasts as well.
They sometimes have interestingtopics, but most of them end up
(04:57):
being somewhat vulgar or theyaren't done well.
We do need words to describesexual things or body parts, so
it's not really the words used,but more.
I don't enjoy the general toneof those podcasts.
They clearly have anon-biblical focus in how they
discuss it all, or it's filledwith filth and perverted topics
(05:19):
too, so I have stopped trying tolisten to those.
I appreciate your godly focus,even when discussing highly
sexual topics.
Goes on to say when I've heardit discussed among Christians,
it's almost like it's a negative, almost like it's worldly or
too sex-focused.
(05:41):
And then he asks this questionso why does it seem so
stigmatized to consider new waysto feel pleasure?
You do great with topics thatare sometimes stigmatized and in
some ways all of these are.
Either they seem kind ofextreme or maybe it's
(06:01):
embarrassing or shameful to talkabout for some reason.
I know you have touched on someof these before, but there are
likely other topics too thatseem stigmatized, especially by
Christians.
I think it's great when youbring these kinds of things up,
so it's actually a longer emailand so we've paraphrased and
(06:25):
summarized it just to really getto the heart of what this
reader is asking.
He does go on to name somespecific sexual practices which
he believes have been unjustlyavoided like we just seem to
condemn them, or many Christiansseem to condemn them, and so he
(06:47):
talks about that.
But his general question iswhere does the stigma of talking
about sex come from?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Well, I would agree with this reader and I think
many of us have probablyexperienced something similar
that there is a culture of shameand stigma surrounding sex,
especially in the church.
I mean just looking around,like the idea of celibacy in the
Catholic priesthood to thePuritans in the 16th century, to
(07:19):
even the purity culture of the1990s.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Right, which we've done, some episodes kind of
digging into that.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Exactly.
I mean, there have been so manyreligious influences throughout
Western culture which havereally taken sort of this
outspoken, sometimes very severeview of sex and sexual desire.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And I think for a lot of us who have grown up in a
Christian culture, so to speak,we think that this is biblical,
like in our minds.
This goes hand in hand.
I think we, often, many of usmaybe I'm just speaking for
myself I did think that therewas somehow some sense of shame
(08:04):
tied to sexuality, and that thatcame from the Bible itself.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Right, right, and I think what we want to try to do
with this episode and at thispoint we're probably going to
turn this into a couple ofepisodes is to take a little bit
deeper look into history andsome of the cultural and
religious views of sexualitythroughout history.
(08:30):
Now, to do that in real depth,to do a real deep dive, would
certainly require maybe the restof the year of episodes.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
We are not going to do that.
We're not doing that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
But I do think it's worth recognizing, and I think
this is really where we want tokind of land.
All of this is to recognizethat not all of our, either
individually or our as inculturally, or when I say our,
perhaps even if we're justtalking about the religious
world or the church, it is worthrecognizing that not all of our
(09:06):
perspectives, not all of ourassumptions and not all of our
opinions about how to handlesexuality are based in Scripture
alone.
Our modern, quote-unquoteChristian ideas about sex are a
view of scripture through thelens of both modern and ancient
(09:27):
secular philosophy, ancientsociopolitical ideology and even
the evolving Western culturesthat have influenced kind of who
we are and where we are today.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And that's what I think we don't really recognize
where our assumptions and ourperspectives and our opinions
are coming from.
So it's worth digging into,it's worth saying what does the
Bible really truly say or notsay about sexuality and how we
should approach that topicindividually and collectively as
(10:05):
a church.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
One of the hardest things toknow and to see and to recognize
about oneself are our biases,and that's what I want to try to
maybe lift the curtain on alittle bit is to see and to
examine and challenge.
Why do we think the way that wethink about sexuality in
(10:27):
particular?
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So I think, without getting too academic, matt, or
too philosophical, I think it'sworth exploring the historical
influences of our modernChristian approach to sexuality.
So this is going to be a littlebit of a different episode than
what we normally put out.
(10:49):
You're probably going to hearMatt talking a little bit more
than me, because he's the onewho's really been digging in
deep and to taking some time toreally parse this out for us.
But I think this is going to bea great couple of episodes to
help us reframe again.
Why is it?
I think, the way that I think.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, and why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we teach what we believe?
And again, it is critical, inevery facet of our worldview,
that we would be willing toacknowledge where our biases
might be and especially, whereare our non-biblical influences.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Right.
We should always be willing tochallenge why we believe, what
we believe and how it is that wegot there.
The challenge of that is notwrong.
That is how you develop andbuild your faith, right.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You should be able to give a defense right.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Why do we do what we do Right and then, once we've
examined that, it is so criticalthen to go back and to hold on
to what Scripture says yes, andthen be willing to let go of
everything else that doesn'tserve us.
Let go of everything else thatis especially contrary to what
(12:07):
scripture teaches, that iscontrary to the attitude that
God has, in this case, aboutsexuality.
So most of us don't realize howmuch our core beliefs and how
much our attitudes are shaped bysocietal influences, and those
societal influences have in turnbeen influenced by centuries of
(12:28):
, in some cases, non-biblicalphilosophy or other ideology
that comes from a secularworldview.
The historical Christianapproach to sexuality, which
includes tendencies towardssilence and taboo and shame and
(12:49):
moral regulation of sexuality,the historical Christian
approach, is definitely aproduct of historical layering,
and it is layering that goes allthe way back to ancient Greece,
maybe even further back thanthat, but at the very least
we're going to start ourconversation with ancient Greek
philosophy, and I think most ofus will be a little surprised to
(13:14):
realize that our modernthinking about sexuality has
roots even going back to thefourth century.
Yeah, we still think like.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
Greeks, we think we're so modern and so with it,
no.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
So we're going to start by acknowledging these
influences, greeks and beyond,and hopefully some of us can be
compelled to shift our mindsettoward a view of sexuality that
is purely biblical and lets goof the Greek philosophy and the
(13:52):
other secular influences as wego through this.
So, with your indulgence, wewant to take an episode or two
to kind of broadly investigatesome of these influences, and
again, we're going to start withthe ancient Greeks in this
episode.
At some point we're going tomove on to other influences,
like Augustine and the earlyCatholic Church as it had
(14:16):
influence through the MiddleAges.
We're going to see howProtestant groups like, for
example, the Puritans in the16th century, and then how the
Victorians in the 19th centurystill influence our modern
attitudes of sexual shame.
And then more recently, in the20th century, thinkers like
(14:38):
Sigmund Freud of course had agreat deal of influence in how
we think about sex today.
And then the sexual revolutionof the 1960s of course brought
about a whole nother wave ofthinking.
That maybe well, and I thinkwhat we'll see is it both
influenced the churches thinkingabout sexuality, but also
(14:58):
influenced an extreme reactionto sexuality, starting in the
1960s that culminated mostrecently with purity culture,
like we've talked about.
So, again, these are historylessons, so to speak, but I'm no
historian, I don't even reallylike history that much, right?
But we're going to hopefully beable to look at these different
(15:25):
philosophies and, I hope, totry to point out where do they
differ with how the Bible viewssexuality?
Where do these ideas differfrom even ancient Jewish
attitudes about sexuality?
So sounds exciting, right.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I feel like you should be like hi, I'm Matt,
Welcome to my TED Talk.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, okay, so maybe history and philosophy is not
your thing.
Not your thing, right?
Jen?
Speaker 2 (15:52):
That's yes.
Don't worry, though.
The goal is not for us all tobecome sex history experts.
Nope, Like Matt is no.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
We're going to try to go light on the boring stuff,
yeah, okay, like Matt is.
No, we're going to try to golight on the boring stuff, okay,
yeah, and we're going to try tobring it all around to.
Why is this important for metoday?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
And I think that's the biggest thing.
Why does this matter to metoday?
And I think what you'll see isthat you will be shocked, as
Matt has already alluded to.
You will be shocked at kind ofwhat has gone into why we think,
how we think within the broaderChristian world today when it
comes to sexuality.
(16:31):
So I think you're going to besurprised that some of the ways
we think and talk about sex inthe church today aren't actually
necessarily based on biblicalattitudes, even though we think
they are.
Yes.
All right, Matt.
So without further ado, getinto it for us.
Let's start with some ancientGreek philosophy.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Okay, and I know if you are a regular listener, you
probably never would haveimagined that we would be
talking about ancient Greekphilosophy.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Stick with us, because it does matter.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Even and especially if you're a new listener, you're
like oh, that's a podcast aboutmarried sex.
I wonder what the topic istoday.
Ancient Greek philosophy.
Probably not ancient Greekphilosophy, but let's just dig
in, Hang with me for just likethree minutes and then we're
going to see how this influenceseven how you think about this
(17:24):
today.
We're going to see how thisinfluences even how you think
about this today.
So in the 4th century BC, therewas a guy named Plato.
Everybody's heard of Plato,right?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Not talking about the toy clay stuff Plato, plato
Plato and a whole other group ofphilosophers who we won't get
into, but Plato's the mostpopular.
One of them brought about thisthinking called dualism, and
dualism was this idea where thebody was seen as the prison of
(17:59):
the soul.
So in Plato's thinking, thesoul was primary, the soul was
most important, and the body wasthis fleshly prison, if you
will, that contained the soullines up with a biblical
(18:27):
worldview, but in other ways ithas influenced even how we think
about how the mind and the bodyand the soul are all connected.
We won't dig too deep into allof that, but let's just say,
though, that, because of thisidea of dualism, desire any
physical desire, but especiallysexual desire, or at least
including sexual desire, anykind of physical desire, was
(18:51):
associated with this lower andirrational nature of human
beings, whereas the soul,especially the soul in terms of
thought and reason and logic,all of that was seen as higher
and was seen as more divine.
In other words, the body andthings that were physical were
(19:15):
disregarded and thought of asmore animalistic, whereas the
things of the soul and thingsthat were spiritual, as it were,
were seen as closer to deity,closer to God, if you will.
And so true virtue for Plato andother dualists.
True virtue required masteryover the body.
(19:39):
Okay, now, on some level that'smaybe even consistent with what
is biblical, right, we have tohave control over our bodies,
and there is some aspect ofChristianity which embodies this
idea of self-control, right.
But this laid the groundwork,then, for dualists to begin to
(20:06):
associate sexuality withweakness or with irrationality,
where sexuality and sexualdesire was seen as inferior and
something that needed to bemastered not even just mastered,
but also even transcended.
Okay, mastered.
Not even just mastered, butalso even transcended, okay.
And so you get to.
(20:26):
So Plato again, 4th century BC.
You move the followingcenturies, the 3rd century BC
and onward, even up until thetime of Christ.
Plato and dualism evolved intothis idea of Stoicism.
And there were Stoics, therewere also Epicureans and there's
(20:50):
a lot of other kind of facetsin different directions that
Greek philosophy goes.
Again, not going to bore youwith a lot of those details, but
maybe to boil it all down,there were Stoics who emphasized
, then kind of working off ofPlato's idea of sexuality and
sexual desire and any kind ofphysical desire being weak and
(21:13):
lesser.
They began to emphasize rationalthought and self-control and
even began to emphasize andprioritize suppression of
passions.
Not just that passions weresomething that needed to be
transcended or elevated above,but even to the point of
(21:39):
suppressing passions,suppressing desires, suppressing
any kind of physical pleasure,including sexual desire,
especially sexual desire.
And so they began to hold viewsthat sex was acceptable, but
only within marriage and onlyfor procreation, not for
(22:01):
pleasure.
And so this idea that not forpleasure, and so this idea that
sex was something that was kindof necessary but something that
needed to be handled onlyoccasionally and handled only
with caution and care, andsuppressed to whatever extent
(22:22):
Stoic ideas, and you may haveheard of the term asceticism.
Asceticism is this idea ofdenial of pleasure.
So any kind of pleasure it wasthought of you were virtuous,
the more pleasures you deniedyourself.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Yeah, and this is all in the time before Christ,
right.
Correct, just to set the stagefor those of us who are not
history buffs.
This is all the thought and thecommon beliefs, if you will,
before Christ comes into theworld.
That's exactly right, becauseChristianity, so this isn't
(22:59):
coming off of Christianity atthis point is what I'm trying to
say, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
It was born of Greek pagan philosophy, but
Christianity.
It's important to recognizethat Christianity is introduced
into a world that is steeped indualism and Stoicism.
So the people in the world atthe time of Christ are all
dualists.
(23:24):
They are all Stoics to someextent.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
Yeah, this is the culture that they're living in.
So they're affected by it,whether or not they do or don't
fully buy in or believe it.
They're not all practicing itof course.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I mean they're obviously people are people.
They're going to behave the waythey want to behave and they're
going to be hedonistic inwhatever sense that that is
practiced in that culture.
Be hedonistic in whatever sensethat that is practiced in that
culture.
But Christianity is introducedinto a world where at least
everybody has some sense ofbelief that suppressing your
physical desires is somehownoble and virtuous.
(23:57):
And so, just like, if you'refamiliar with your Bible, you
know, especially if you've readthe book of Acts, that there
were Judaizing teachers in thefirst century.
These are Jewish people whowanted to insert and influence
the way that the Christian codesof ethics and morals were going
(24:18):
to be taught.
Just like the Judaizingteachers in the first century
threatened to kind of inserttheir own man-made regulations
on Christians, the Stoicphilosophers and the Greco-Roman
culture also threatened toimpose things like asceticism
and dualistic ideology on earlyChristianity.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Right, so Christ comes.
He's born into that world livesas a man, dies.
Church begins just setting thestage here.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, and the apostles are trying to spread
the gospel and spread godlyChristian ideals, they're
budding up against not just theJewish people who want to shape
Christianity into a Jewishreligion.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
They're also butting up against the Greco-Roman
philosophers and culture whowant to make it shapes how we
should be reading certain wordsof Paul.
Absolutely, because Paul andsome of the other apostles
(25:35):
address this very directly inthe New Testament, because this
is exactly what they were upagainst.
Think about 1 Timothy, chapter4.
Feel free to turn there if youhave your Bibles, but I'm going
to read it for you and justthink about this context of
Plato and dualism and stoicismwhen you read what Paul says to
(25:59):
Timothy.
Now, the Spirit expressly saysthat in later times, some will
depart from the faith bydevoting themselves to deceitful
spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of
liars whose consciences areseared, who forbid marriage and
require abstinence from foodsthat God created to be received
(26:22):
with thanksgiving by those whobelieve and know the truth For
everything created by God isgood.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Wow, when you read those verses in context of what
is happening culturally, itdefinitely makes it.
I don't know.
It solidifies, like what isbeing said.
It gives it more weight.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well and remember.
I mean, Timothy grew up amongGreeks, His father was a Greek,
he grew up among this culture,and so Timothy has been charged
by Paul to spread the gospelthrough this Gentile world.
But Paul tells Timothy and hesays to those who insist on
(27:18):
denying God's blessing, such assexual pleasure or food, he says
of those who want to deny thosepleasures, that those people
are liars and they are devotedto deceitful spirits and demons.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Whoa, that's a pretty serious accusation.
Paul is dead serious, thatthese people are dead wrong,
that it is not godly to denypleasure just for the sake of
denying pleasure.
Instead, paul instructs thateverything that God created is
(27:53):
good.
I mean, remember Genesis 1.31,at the end of creation, god
specifically says thateverything he created is not
just good, he says it is verygood.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Right and Paul is saying it's good and should be
received with thanksgiving,Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And again.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
I mean he's talking about marriage and he is talking
about food in the same sentencethere.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
Exactly there.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So sexual pleasures and physical pleasures that are
part of our being human beingmade in the image of God.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
And further.
Then he says that all thingsthat are given by God are made
holy through the word of God andthrough prayer.
We can be sure that God frownson those who deny or suppress or
degrade the blessing and thepleasure of married sex.
God not just frowns on them,but again Paul calls them
(28:55):
deceitful spirits.
He calls them liars.
If you say that what God hascreated is not good, you are a
liar.
Good, you are a liar.
And Paul also says that if amarried couple steeps their
sexual relationship in prayerand in the word of God, then
their sexual desires and theirpractices are holy and they
(29:17):
ought to be and should be andcan be enjoyed without shame.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Right, I mean just clearly.
Scripture teaches us thatexpressing our sexuality is
designed for marriage, so we'renot saying that.
This verse is saying justfreely enjoy your sexuality
anywhere and everywhere.
This is about how do we use oursexual energy within the
(29:47):
context of marriage.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Yeah, well, I think that's what he means, that if
you receive it with the Word ofGod and by prayer, in other
words, if you receive yoursexuality through the lens of
what God has planned for you andyou involve God in that
practice of your sexuality, thenit is holy Right and you ought
to be able to enjoy it and to doso with thanksgiving to God.
(30:13):
In Colossians, chapter 2, verse16, it's a very curious kind of
passage there.
We can't get into the wholecontext, but Paul actually
quotes one of the Stoicphilosophers.
When he says do not handle, donot taste, do not touch, he's
quoting some contemporaryphilosopher at the time, or at
least, at the very least, he'squoting some common cultural
(30:35):
guideline that is based on thisStoic philosophy.
In that same context, inColossians 2, he's urging his
readers to reject, quote theappearance of wisdom and to
reject, quote self-made religionthat is manifested as
asceticism.
It's manifested by what hecalls severity to the body.
(30:58):
Because he says that kind ofapproach, this approach of
self-denial and asceticism andseverity of the body, these are,
he says, of no value instopping the indulgence of the
flesh.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Is that surprising?
Is that simply denying, simplyignoring or suppressing our
desires is actually of no battle, no value in battling lust and
sin.
But isn't that exactly how wetend to teach?
How do you handle your sexualdesire, especially those to
(31:42):
unmarried people?
How do you handle that?
Well, you just deny it, youjust stop thinking about it, you
ignore it, you suppress it.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
You just have to wait , just hold on and wait.
But listen, silence is not theanswer.
Suppression is not the answer.
Hiding sexual desires is notthe answer.
Pretending that we don't livewith sexual desire is not the
answer.
Refusing to speak plainly aboutsexual desire is not the answer
.
Embarrassment, shame, these arenot the answer.
This approach, paul clearly says, this kind of approach of
(32:19):
severity to the body, ofsuppressing our desires, of
ignoring our desires, this kindof approach, he says, is of no
value in stopping indulgence ofthe flesh.
What is the answer then?
Right, well, if you keepreading, if you get past
Colossians, chapter 2 and youget to Colossians chapter 3,
(32:42):
paul admonishes these Colossiansto not only put to death
earthly things.
Clearly, we have to put todeath sinful practices, but the
answer is not to get rid ofdesire.
The answer is to change whatyou desire.
It is to refocus what youdesire.
It's not to suppress yourdesire.
(33:03):
It's to instead seek the thingswhich are above, have desire
for something that is actuallyof value.
The solution to fleshly desireis to focus on something that is
godly and holy.
Again, desire is not theproblem.
Instead, we have to glorifywhat God's plan is for that
(33:25):
desire, the Bible's solution tofleshly desire is to glorify the
godly object of desire.
Again, I say this this is maybea paradigm shift.
This was a paradigm shift forme.
Might be for you too, but Iwould suggest that the problem
(33:45):
with our sexual desire is notthat we don't have enough desire
or that we have too much desire.
The problem is not that we havetoo much desire.
The problem is actually that wedon't have enough desire.
We don't have enough desire forwhat is actually real, what is
actually the purpose for ourdesire.
(34:06):
Instead, we have so littledesire, we settle for things
that aren't really healthy.
We settle for things thataren't really helpful.
We settle for things thataren't really going to be able
to fulfill us.
We don't have enough hunger forwhat is really going to fulfill
(34:27):
us.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Well, and that's where we in the church ought to
be proclaiming the beauty ofmarried sex and the joy that
exists within that expression ofsexual desire expression of
(34:49):
sexual desire which ought to bepointing us towards our desire
for intimate relationship withour true beloved, with God, and
that when we, as marriedChristians, fully embrace, live
out and proclaim that joy, thenit says to singles there's
something better, that themarriage and married sex isn't
(35:12):
the end-all be-all.
It's a metaphor for theintimacy we ought to have with
God, and singles can have thattoo.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, yeah, this is the problem with how we talk
about sex in the church.
We have, just like Plato, triedto separate the body and the
spirit.
We have tried to separate sexand spirituality.
Right, and when you do that,then sex if you only can see sex
as something that is physical,then you have no way of pointing
(35:41):
someone towards the real valuein sex, which is spiritual
connection with each other andwith God and our sexual desire,
just like our physical desirefor food, I mean, look, we don't
shame people who are hungry orthirsty.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Right, how dare you be hungry again?
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Unless your hunger is driving you toward unhealthy
behavior or some unhealthyreliance on food, and so,
similarly, there's nothingabnormal or immoral about having
sexual desire right.
Contrary to Plato and contraryto the dualists, sexual desire
is not base, it's not weak, it'snot profane, it's not something
(36:21):
that needs to be overcome ortranscended.
It is God-designed, it isGod-given, it is God-blessed.
Speaker 2 (36:28):
God didn't mess up when he created us all to have
sexual desire, whether we'remarried or not.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
You know, I've heard some singles say before like.
I've heard some singles saybefore like why did God make me
with sexual desire when I don'thave an outlet, I don't have a
place for expression, unless I'mmarried?
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Well, he did that not on accident, but on purpose?
Yes, it is to—God gives usdesire to teach us about
something.
God gives us desire to teach usabout something, and in the
case of sexual desire, thepurpose of sexual desire is to
teach me that I need connection,that I need something more than
myself.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Now, if I only focus on the physical manifestation of
that, if I only focus on thephysical outlet for that, then
it becomes base and profane.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Whether you're married or single.
Plenty of married people lettheir married sex life become
base and profane because theymake it just about the physical.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
It's just about the orgasm, it's just about the
pleasure, it's just about memyself, Instead of becoming
about connection, something thatdraws me closer to my spouse,
something that draws me closerto God in a way that I can
receive it with thanksgiving.
If I can't be thankful, if Ican't pray to God in praise and
thankfulness for my sex life,then I shouldn't be having it
(37:59):
Right praise and thankfulnessfor my sex life then I shouldn't
be having it Right.
So, again, our physical hungerand thirst should remind us of
the living water.
Our physical hunger and thirstshould remind us of the bread of
life, from whence we receiveeternal fulfillment and from
whence we receive true life.
Again, if our food and drinkbecomes the focus instead of the
(38:23):
loving provider, then ourdesire becomes carnal and sinful
.
But instead, if we receive ourfood and drink with thanksgiving
, thanksgiving to the one whohas provided it, then our
desires are holy, then ourdesires are good, as Paul
teaches again in 1 Timothy 4,like we talked about.
(38:44):
And so, similarly, if wefulfill our sexual desires in
godly ways, if we feel oursexual desire in a way that
points us to God, the provider,to God, the one with whom we
have eternal connection, thenour sexual desires are made holy
and good.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
You know, proverbs teaches that the way that we
avoid the adulterous.
If you read chapter five inProverbs, the instructor there
is giving instruction to youngmen and he says the way that you
avoid the adulteress is not toignore your sexual desire.
That is not the advice that'sgiven in Proverbs 5.
Instead, in chapter 5, thereader is given instruction to,
(39:31):
in fact, rejoice and be filledwith delight in his wife.
He is instructed to be filledup with his wife's breasts and
to be intoxicated by her love.
Yeah, does that sound likerestraint?
Does that sound likesuppression?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
No, does that sound like shame?
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Or embarrassment.
No, it's exactly the opposite.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Right, he's instructing toward excess.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yes, not restraint, it's exactly the opposite.
He's instructed to beintoxicated.
That is specificallyinstruction to take more than
you think you should, to beintoxicated to an irrational
level.
Speaker 2 (40:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
And yet do you feel like your church sometimes
teaches that sexual desire oughtto be pursued to excess in the
marriage bed?
Or is sexual desire treatedwith silence and shame Right?
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Is sexual desire viewed like something dangerous
or even worldly in the way thatyour church teaches about it or
doesn't teach about it?
Do you view sexual desire asdangerous or worldly, and where
is that coming from?
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Listen.
The Bible rejects dualism.
The Bible rejects stoicism, andyou should too.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Right, I mean the words of Paul and the other
apostles and New Testamentwriters were speaking into that
culture, that common teachingand belief, and we need to read
it in that context.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
And very clearly and specifically about sexuality.
Very clearly and specificallyabout sexuality.
Sexuality is not at odds withspirituality.
Sexuality is not at odds withvirtue, Because God created
sexual desire and he wants tobless you with holy fulfillment
of your sexual desire so thatyou can receive it with
(41:40):
thanksgiving and holiness.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
All right.
Well, you explained Greekphilosophy, Matt, in a sex
podcast.
Well done.
Never thought we'd be here and Ithink that this again, I think
this is great to help usunderstand what challenge, why
(42:04):
is it?
I believe what I believe andjust this greater context of why
is the idea of church andmarried sex so divorced for so
many of us?
Why is it treated with so muchsilence and shame?
Where's that coming from?
So I hope you find value indigging into this.
We'll do a part two that kindof gets us a little bit more
(42:27):
into modern times.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, well, I think we're going to see there's a lot
of other ways in which we havebeen influenced, as a church and
as a culture, in how we thinkabout sexuality.
Again, that is not coming frombiblical influence.
It is coming from other places.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So, matt, give us the wrap for this part of the
episode at least Okay.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Modern religious attitudes about sex have deep
roots in ancient philosophicaland societal ideologies that
have converged over thecenturies, and so not all of our
quote religious convictions arebased on biblical concepts
about sex.
The ancient Greeks taught thatphysical desires were a sign of
(43:08):
weakness and were based oninferior virtues.
Therefore, they held thatsexual desire ought to be denied
and suppressed.
But in contrast, the Bibleteaches that sexual desire is
given by God and should beenjoyed to excess in the holy
marriage bed, with boththanksgiving and delight.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Now it's time to grab your spouse and your Bible and
head to your kitchen table tohave a conversation about your
attitudes about married sex.
Have either of you been exposedto, teaching or incorporated
attitudes that treat sexualitylike something worldly or
inferior?
Speaker 1 (43:51):
We would love to hear your feedback.
Contact us by emailing podcastat intimatecovenantcom or to
submit an anonymous feedback orquestions, go to our website,
intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and support.
Thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
(44:27):
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
And please also support our affiliate businesses
who help support IntimateCovenant Links, and exclusive
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in the show notes.
Until next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
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