November 11, 2024 • 42 mins
In this episode, Matt & Jenn answer the following listener questions:
- What advice do you have for couples that have great sex but struggle talking about sex? We’ve tried conversation starters but the answers are always brief.
- I’m ashamed how much value I place on my spouses physical appearance. Self-improvement is a good virtue, but how do I ensure my motives are not immoral or shallow
- I enjoy sleeping naked. My wife hates it. How can I encourage her to try & embrace it regularly. It's a great sensual way to enjoy each other without having sex.
- I crave physical touch (not just sexually), as a pursuer how do ask for this without coming across as needy? Rub my back, hold my hand, hug me. How do I ask?
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Cherishing,
Matt & Jenn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, jen, I've got a question for you, Actually four
questions.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The first question is the answer is no, just no.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Great.
Today on the podcast, we'reanswering four listener
questions, including how to talkabout sex, the importance of
physical attraction, sleepingnaked and asking for more
physical touch.
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We're Matt and Jen, and this is the Intimate
Covenant Podcast, where webelieve the Bible and great
married sex both belong on yourkitchen table.
That's right.
We are talking about godlymarriage and hot sex and
emotionally fulfilling onenessin that relationship.
That's what we do every monthhere on the Intimate Covenant
podcast and we are so gratefulthat you have joined us.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
We are thankful.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for being a part of ourpodcast.
If you'd like to find out moreabout us, you can visit our
website at intimatecovenantcom,and we always love hearing from
you, so feel free to reach outto us with any of your thoughts,
your questions.
You can send that via email topodcast at IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Love it For our last two episodes.
If you've been following along,we've shared some recordings,
some snippets, if you will, someexcerpts from our 2025 marriage
retreat.
That happened in September.
We always have a Q&A session, alive Q&A session during that
(01:35):
event and really every liveevent that we do and we received
during the course of thatweekend.
We received way more questionsthan we had time to answer.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We could have just done the entire retreat based
off of Q&A.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, no doubt.
I mean I think, if I rememberright, we had something like 40
questions, maybe something alongthose lines.
It was pretty high.
We got to a good number ofthose during that session, but
we had probably four or fivetimes as many questions as we
could answer.
So we felt like some of thosequestions definitely deserved
answers.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, probably all of them deserved answers, but some
of them we're going to make forsome great podcast episodes.
So we were like, hey, thanksfor writing our podcast episodes
for us.
So today we are pulling four ofthose questions from those
submissions and we're going toanswer those questions here for
you.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, we're looking forward to that.
Before we get to thosequestions and answers, we do
want to remind you we arebooking marriage weekends for
2025.
Some of that is already in theworks and we're very excited to
hopefully be making someofficial announcements about
some 2025 events coming soon,hopefully to an area near you.
(02:50):
But if you want to assure thata marriage weekend happens in a
location near you, invite us.
We want to come.
We would love to partner withyou and maybe some of your
friends and see if we can makesomething happen at a marriage
weekend in your area.
(03:10):
So give us a call, email,whatever, Find us smoke signals,
pigeons, whatever it takesReach out to us.
We'll be happy to reply andrespond and see if we can make
something happen.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
That's right.
So, like we said today, we'reanswering questions,
specifically questions about howto talk about sex, especially
if the topic is uncomfortablefor one or both of you.
Another question about howimportant is physical attraction
and whether or not you shouldput a lot of value in that in
regards to your spouse'sappearance.
(03:42):
Third question we're going toanswer is about sleeping naked
Maybe pros and cons of sleepingnaked, pros and cons, and maybe
how to introduce that into yourmarriage, if that's something
that you might both beinterested in.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And the final question is how to ask for more
physical touch without comingacross as being needy.
Yeah, that's a good questionand certainly some principles
that we can gain from that aswell, so we're looking forward
to answering those questionscoming up Again.
If you have questions, though,that you think would make for a
good discussion on our podcast,we'd love to hear from you.
(04:20):
You can email us podcast atintimatecovenantcom, or, if you
would like to submit a questionanonymously, you can feel free
to do that on our website.
If you go to our website,intimate covenantcom slash
podcast, there will be a buttonthere that says contact the
podcast and, as you mightimagine, that's how you contact.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
All right.
So first question coming up,Matt what advice do you have for
couples that have great sex butstruggle talking about sex?
We've tried conversationstarters, but the answers are
always brief.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Interesting.
Well, first, let mecongratulate you on having great
sex.
Yeah, that's great, and wecertainly encourage that.
That's what we're here for.
I would suggest to you, thoughand I certainly applaud the fact
that you are trying to talkabout sex.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That is an excellent starting place, the fact that
you are having conversations,that you are intentionally
trying to have thoseconversations.
Keep talking.
I think if I could answer thisquestion in two words, it would
be to keep talking.
Now, of course, I can't justanswer a question in two words.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Words than that, though, don't we Matt?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yes, exactly, but I think number one.
I would encourage you andadmonish you that if you have
great sex now, your sex will bebetter if you are talking about
it, Right right, and that isjust a requisite for having a
good sex life.
That's a requisite for growingyour sex life, your sex life,
(06:08):
and you will not be able tomaintain an excellent sex life,
particularly as you get olderand experience more challenges
to your sex life.
You're going to have a hardertime having a great sex life if
you're not capable of talkingabout it and keeping that on the
forefront.
John Gottman did, of course.
He is the guru of marriagerelationships and a very widely
respected scholar.
(06:29):
He's done numbers of studiesand one of the things that he
found in his studies is thatcouples who don't talk about sex
have less than a 1 in 10 chanceof having an excellent sex life
over the long run.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
That's pretty astounding.
I mean, you might have greatsex for a period, but what his
study found is that, like youjust said, over the long run, if
you're not able to talk aboutsex, it will break down.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Absolutely.
I mean abundant hormones andyoung, physically capable bodies
will get you only so far.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Well, because they don't stay young great physical
bodies.
That's exactly right.
So I think this first starts byunderstanding the benefits of
talking about sex and kind ofwhere you just started there.
But I think it's also learningto not settle for I don't know.
So sometimes, when we're tryingto have conversations about sex
(07:27):
, one or maybe even bothpartners can come up against a
feeling of, well, I don't know,I don't know how I feel about
that, I don't know what I like,because, in part because it's
uncomfortable to talk aboutsomething you've never really
put words to before.
You, frankly, have maybe nevereven put words to it in your own
mind.
(07:48):
So it's that much harder to thenshare, even though you know
we're one and I want to share mylife with my beloved.
It can be hard to find thosewords, and so it can be real
easy to kind of throw out an Idon't know and then just let
that be.
But our encouragement would bedon't settle an I don't know and
then just let that be.
But our encouragement would bedon't settle for I don't know
yeah, I don't know is not aperiod.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It's not the end of the conversation.
In fact, I would suggest that,if you don't know, that that
should be the beginning of theconversation.
That that is an opportunity,then for growth for both of you,
a place for exploration.
And you know, admittedly, manyof us grew up in homes where we
didn't talk about sex.
(08:30):
We're not used to talking aboutsex.
We don't even have, in somecases, the vocabulary to talk
about sex.
So sometimes this conversationstarts with making sure that you
even have a vocabulary for bodyparts and for the things that
you do, right, and then that canprogress to conversations about
(08:51):
things that we like or don'tlike, or make us feel
uncomfortable, or things that wemight want to explore.
So these are conversations thatmust happen over your lifetime.
These are conversations thatmust happen over your lifetime.
Don't feel like you have to getall of this over in a weekend
or even on a date night or inone conversation.
You can't and won't andshouldn't get this conversation
(09:14):
over in one sitting, so it issomething that you will have to
work on.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Right and I would say , along with the you know that
mindset, matt, of like, keepworking on it.
I think another important thingis, like, don't allow yourself
to just have brief answers,right, like the questioner says,
our answers are always brief.
Well, okay, again, you'restarting somewhere right, but
(09:42):
don't settle for brief answers,and I think that involves being
willing to dig deeper.
And the best way to dig deeperis to ask ourselves and each
other why.
So when you get that briefanswer, hooray, you're talking,
you had an answer.
But the next part is why?
Why that answer?
Why that preference?
(10:03):
Why you know, what is it about?
Whatever the subject is, dig alittle bit deeper and that might
give you five more words, butit's five more words.
You know.
This question kind of hits homefor me, matt, because for us I
know people do not believe thisabout me, but I used to hate
(10:25):
talking about sex and at thebeginning of our marriage, like,
that was terrifying to me andit took a very long time for me
to get comfortable with thisconversation.
You were gracious and beingpatient with okay, it's going to
start with brief answers, butbrief answers are at least
(10:45):
answers.
Then, from there I learned togrow into deeper answers, in
part because I started asking myown self why I stopped settling
for well, that's, I don't know.
That's all I need to thinkabout, that's all I need to say.
So my encouragement, comingfrom experience, is be willing
(11:06):
to talk about it, because justtalking about it makes
everything so much richer anddeeper and healthier and more
joyful.
Like every great emotion youexperience with sex becomes
amplified when you're willing toput words to it.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Absolutely with sex becomes amplified when you're
willing to put words to itAbsolutely and you know, I think
part of this is digging intowhy do we feel uncomfortable
about this or why are we willingto settle for brief answers?
Some of that is likely becausethere are these barriers of
shame that we just don't feelcomfortable about it, or we
(11:47):
don't feel comfortable diggingdeeper into it.
And it's just this greatparadox to me that we often feel
much more comfortable bearingour souls to our bodies, to each
other, than we do feelcomfortable bearing our emotion
and our souls to one another.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, so for a lot of us it's digging into where is
my shame coming from, right?
Oftentimes that inability totalk about sex is coming from a
place of shame, and that may bethat, again, like you were
saying at the beginning, thatthere's just been a lot of
silence that has cloaked sex,and some of that silence is
(12:28):
obviously healthy, right?
I mean, you don't need singlepeople talking about the
benefits of certain sexualpositions, right?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right that does no one any good.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
That does no one any good, but then that's a
conversation to have within yourmarriage.
So some of it is just learningto set aside the silence because
now is the time for addingwords.
So some of us it's shame fromsilence.
Some of us it's shames frommisusing our sexuality, sure,
and some of us it's shamebecause someone else has misused
(13:01):
our sexuality.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
So let's talk about some ways to maybe break through
some of those barriers or maybeopen up some of those barriers
in an easier way.
I think one of the importantthings that at least helped in
our relationship was to avoidtrying to have these
conversations around the timeswhen you are having sex.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Oh, this was a big one for us, because if we were
going to have a conversationabout sex and then I knew that
immediately following that I wasexpected to do whatever it is
we just talked about, I meanmajor, major pressure.
So for us we learned to havethese conversations completely
separated.
These were conversations we hadwhen we had a long car drive,
(13:46):
just obviously just the two ofus, not with our kids in the
backseat, but anytime that wecould have a conversation
separate from, okay and weimmediately afterwards are going
to have sex, or after, like,don't have this conversation
immediately after sex or afterlike don't have this
conversation immediately aftersex.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
That can feel very critical or blaming or just
uncomfortable because you'realmost judging what just
happened.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
It sure can feel like that, and I think that kind of
goes to maybe the second pointof how to have these
conversations have them in atimeframe and in a way where you
feel safe.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, well, I mean, I think this is the biggest.
This is the overall point ismake sure that you are both feel
secure and safe when you areattempting to have this
conversation.
That does mean certainlyphysically, and that gets back
to the timing of all this.
That also gets to making surethat no one can hear you having
(14:48):
this conversation.
No one else can have you hearyou having this conversation.
Make sure that, physically, youare relaxed and emotionally,
that you are relaxed.
This is not a greatconversation to have.
You know right when you walk inthe door from work, or you know
right when you walk in the doorfrom work, or you know while
you're trying to, you know getready for the day or you're busy
(15:08):
or you know.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Or in the middle of, like, holiday chaos, when your
in-laws are like sleeping in thebedroom next to you.
You know any of those kinds ofscenarios, right?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Now, if the conversation happens to happen,
then then by all means embraceit.
But for the most part you wantto try to have these
conversations in a time andplace when you are both quite
comfortable and you feel safe.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And I think really the other part of that safety,
matt and this I was kind ofalluding to, that you were so
good at is just approaching thisconversation from a standpoint
of no judgment.
Approaching this conversationfrom a standpoint of no judgment
, only curiosity.
In other words, like,especially for the one who's
maybe a little bit more afraidof the conversation, it's
(15:52):
important that the other spouseask the questions but then don't
judge the response.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
No.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Don't approach it with like a well, why would you
feel that way?
Or, oh, I don't feel that way,I feel this way and my way is
better.
I mean any sense of judgmentlike that can shut down someone
who's uncomfortable with this.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
It's vitally important that when you ask a
question, that your response tothe answer is not judgmental at
all.
It just needs to be a neutralcuriosity and that should be the
motivation for asking thequestion is what is my spouse,
(16:34):
who is my spouse, what can Ilearn about my spouse?
Rather than how can I convincemy spouse to change or do
something different?
So that's the.
I think that's the main.
That has to be the main.
Motivation is curiosity ratherthan judgment or trying to force
change on my spouse.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right, all right, I think that answers that question
, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, that's all we're going to give it.
The next question is I'mashamed how much value I place
on my spouse's physicalappearance.
Self-improvement is a goodvirtue, but how do I ensure my
motives are not immoral orshallow?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I like this question.
It's a little bit of a hardquestion to read, right, but I
appreciate this person askingthis question.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, they're being honest with themselves and I
think that's.
I mean, that's where this hasto start, that's where
everything has to start.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I appreciate that it starts with I'm ashamed, and so,
in other words, this is aperson who's looking to redefine
how they're viewing theirspouse, their spouse's physical
appearance and the importancethat they're putting upon that.
I do think it's important tosay that physical attraction is
important.
That is a part of our marriage.
(17:48):
We ought to be physicallyattracted to one another.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, this isn't going to work if you're not
physically attracted.
But I think I know that it ispossible to train your physical
attraction.
Yes, you can learn and you canmodify what you are attracted to
.
This is what Paul means byrenewing your minds when he
(18:12):
talks about this in Romans,chapter 12 and other places
where we become a new person inChrist.
Well, to become a new personmeans that I must go from
wanting and desiring things thatI shouldn't want to wanting and
desiring the things that Ishould want.
So I know that it can betrained.
(18:33):
The world would have us believethat, well, I'm just attracted
to what I'm attracted to, or Ijust I am what I am and I want
what I want, and I can't doanything about that.
And that is not true.
That is not how we are made,that's not what God expects of
us.
We can train what it is that wedesire.
Now, that's, of course, easiersaid than done, and that is the
(18:55):
struggle between the spirit andthe flesh, and that is the
struggle that all spirit and theflesh, and that is the struggle
that all of us must face in somany ways.
But it certainly applies.
This principle applies to how weview our spouse's physical
beauty and our attraction totheir physical appearance.
You know, I think one thingthis person says in this
(19:19):
question is thatself-improvement is a good, good
virtue, and I guess I canprobably agree with that on some
level.
I'm not sure exactly and Idon't want to put words in the
in this questioner's mouth, butif this person means that
self-improvement in the sense ofbecoming more physically fit or
(19:42):
having better cardiovascularhealth or being thinner and
fitting into a certain pantssize or dress size or whatever,
whether you are a size you know,15 or size 5, probably has very
little to do withself-improvement in my mind.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Right.
If we're sayingself-improvement is a good
virtue, well, I would hope thatwe would all recognize that,
growing in patience and love andjoy and peace, those are
self-improvements that ought tobe receiving the majority of
emphasis.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
The fruits of the Spirit are virtues where we
ought to be placing our emphasis.
I would think Well, I know, Iknow that that's what Scripture
says.
That is where the benefit comes.
Now, is there value in makingsure that your body is being
well taken care of?
I certainly won't deny that.
(20:43):
I think that the Bible alsoteaches that to an extent.
But even Paul himself says thatphysical fitness is of limited
value.
It's not no value, but it iscertainly of limited value,
particularly in comparison tothe eternal characteristics.
Right, because what my waistsize is right now has almost
(21:05):
nothing to do with what myspiritual body will look like in
heaven.
It just won't, right?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
So prioritize eternal virtues in our spouses and what
you hope to improve and whatyou are.
See the beauty of your spousegrowing in their you know again
their love, their joy, theirpeace.
See the beauty of your spousegrowing in that way, more than
(21:36):
their physical appearance, andthat way more than their
physical appearance.
Now, that said, you know,proverbs 5 says let your wife's
breasts satisfy you.
So yes, your wife's physicalbody is meant for your enjoyment
.
But he doesn't say when thebreast is a certain shape or
(21:57):
size, right, it's just thecommandment is her breast should
satisfy you.
So I think that again goes backto physical attraction must and
can be trained.
I mean all of Proverbs 5 and 6,it's about drinking from your
own cistern learning to see thebeauty in what you have before
(22:20):
you frankly, regardless of howperfect or imperfect that is
Well, no, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I mean, if it's so important that your spouse look
a certain way, I have bad newsfor you.
They will not look the same way10 years from now or 20 years,
regardless of how hot or smokinghot they are now or not.
They're going to look differentin 10 years.
That is just an inevitability.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And if you've put a lot of emphasis in that, well
you might be satisfied for thenext six months.
But guess what?
Most women's bodies aredifferent six months from now.
I wish we would just all acceptthat a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Your bodies are meant to fluctuate and so stop honing
in.
This person asked how do Iensure my motives are not
immoral or shallow?
Well, your motives are likelyimmoral or shallow, if you
believe their physicalappearance is all that there is
or is a reflection on you.
(23:23):
So, a lot of people get theirself-worth from what their
bodies look like, but then thatkind of bleeds over into what
does my spouse's body look like.
So if that's where you are,then, yeah, you ought to feel
ashamed.
Now, that shame should motivateyou towards a change in
behavior.
(23:44):
And again, if that's where thisquestioner is, then I hope that
they're coming from a place ofwillingness and a desire to
change.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, I think a lot of this comes down to what
standard am I using to judgewhether my spouse is attractive
or not?
And if I'm using some standardthat is not based on eternal
priority, if I'm using astandard that's not based on
(24:16):
something that is actually goingto last, something that is
actually meaningful, and if I'mnot judging my spouse, my
spouse's beauty, in the same waythat God is judging their
beauty, then I am being shallowand immoral.
In fact, it is idolatry.
If I am holding my spouse tosome standard that is not godly
(24:37):
or biblical or spiritual, thenthat is idolatry.
That is absolutely.
What idolatry means is to holdsomeone to a standard that is
not godly, whether that's myselfor someone else.
So, rather than comparing yourspouse to some external standard
of beauty, I would encourageyou to begin to focus on loving
(24:58):
your spouse for who they areright.
Think about the passages in 1Timothy 3 or 1 Peter 3.
Yeah, I know those passages arewhat we'd like to go to to talk
about modest apparel, but readmore closely and look at how God
is encouraging women in thosepassages to demonstrate their
(25:20):
beauty.
He's saying their beauty is notabout external appearances,
it's not about what they wear.
It's not how they look, it'swho they are inside.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It is the hidden person of the heart.
And so start learning toidentify that and then call out
the beauty in your beloved whenyou're seeing true feminine
beauty.
I mean learn to be grateful forwho appreciate who they are and
what they do way more than whatthey look like.
(25:51):
Now, I get it.
That.
You know, some of us usuallymen are more physically, you
know, are more in tune withphysical appearances than maybe
women sometimes, and I get that.
I'm not denying that, that'sthere.
But again, you can trainyourself to appreciate who your
(26:15):
spouse is way more than whatthey look like.
Appreciate who your spouse isway more than what they look
like and see them as beautifulas what they look like, because
you see them as the wholeness.
It's not just denying like,well, she's not perfect
physically, but I'm going to bethankful that she's a nice wife
and mom.
No, see the wholeness of whothey are and therefore you will
(26:38):
see them as physically beautiful.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Well, right, when you learn to dwell on and, from a
practical standpoint, the waythat this begins to happen is
when you actually start spendingtime meditating on who your
spouse is and focusing in onbeing grateful for the kind of
person they are.
When you begin to see them andembrace them with that gratitude
(27:02):
of what they are and what theyare offering to you, then the
package that they are in, thatis, their body, is just the
package, and you will learn toembrace and love the package
that they are in, regardless ofwhat it looks like at whatever
time you know you, you lose theum, the obsession with their
(27:26):
young, 20 year old body, becausethey don't have a young, 20
year old body when they're 40.
Uh, and that's how you learn toum, place your spouse on this
pedestal so that they become thestandard of beauty, however it
is they woke up.
Looking this morning is exactlywhat I see as beautiful.
That's how you learn to embracethat, which is by spending time
(27:49):
focusing in gratitude andthanksgiving for who they are
and what they are and what theyare giving you.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Very good, All right.
Next question I enjoy sleepingnaked.
My wife hates it.
How can I encourage her to tryand embrace it regularly?
It's a great sensual way toenjoy each other without having
sex.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
So it's a great question and this is not an
uncommon conflict.
It's not an uncommon placewhere couples agree or disagree.
Often one person of the coupleenjoys sleeping without clothes.
They enjoy the feeling ofcloseness that that affords, and
the other spouse justabsolutely hates it.
Now, in some relationships thedifference in affection for this
(28:46):
kind of sleeping may not bethis great, but it's not
uncommon, and this again justdemonstrates the common theme
that often my desires don'talways and often don't can't
align with what my spouse alsowants and likes.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So then the question is what do we do with that?
Well, and it's really.
Does my spouse have to come inline with how I feel about this?
That's really the heart of thisquestion, right?
I would say that to thisquestioner if you have pressured
in any way, then you've built abarrier, right?
(29:28):
If you think that yourpreference is the superior
preference, frankly you're wrong, because a preference is a
preference, it is not a.
My way is greater than your way.
Your preference does not haveto be her preference.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, and to his point I mean are there benefits
of sleeping naked together?
I mean, yes, there are.
Skin-to-skin contact createsoxytocin.
It helps to encourage theemotional and physical bond
between two people.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Right.
This is why we put newbornbabies straight up onto mama if
at all possible.
Skin to skin is great.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It builds connection.
There is benefit to skin toskin contact.
That said, if you put togethera spreadsheet and a PowerPoint
presentation and try to argueyour point with your spouse,
you're not going to change theirmind.
If they have some other hang upto, it's not going to matter
how well you argue the benefitsof sleeping naked.
If your spouse doesn't like it,they don't like it.
(30:32):
I mean, you can tell me all daylong that asparagus is good for
me, but that doesn't mean thatI'm ever going to love it.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Right.
So the question how can Iencourage her to try it and
embrace it regularly?
Well, maybe it's the wrongquestion right, yes, there you
go.
Maybe you're kind of startingfrom a place that is at least
appearing to have a lot ofpressure in it.
So I think the other part ofthis I mean he says it's a great
sensual way to enjoy each otherwithout having sex my question
(31:02):
would be does she view that assuch, or does she actually maybe
feel pressured to have sexevery time that she is naked?
So if you have at all providedthat place of pressure well to
her, then her clothing might bea little bit of a barrier just
to signal that not everything ison the table right now, right?
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Right If I've done a poor job of pursuing in the past
and so my spouse never knowswhen I'm going to be trying to
make a move, and they never knowwhen they're safe to go to
sleep versus when they're goingto be pressured or guilted into
trying to have sex.
If they don't know where thoselines are, then that could be
part of this barrier.
(31:45):
And, honestly, what I don'thear in this question is why
does your wife hate sleepingnaked?
Which suggests to me, perhaps,that this side of the
conversation has never been had.
Now maybe your wife won't tellyou why she doesn't want to
sleep naked.
(32:05):
Maybe she just stops theconversation altogether.
That's certainly possible.
But if I know why she doesn'tlike having sex, more
importantly, if you know why shedoesn't like sleeping naked,
then you might be able toconsider how to address that
barrier.
But again, is it because shefeels pressured to have sex?
(32:26):
Is it because she just feelsmore vulnerable when she's naked
and sleeping?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And I think that's a good point.
I mean, a woman, by nature, isvulnerable and more sensitive,
and so for a woman to becompletely exposed some women
love that, some women it's likefingernails on a chalkboard.
I mean, frankly, women'sbreasts are more sensitive.
I mean, we are designed in adifferent way, and so you might
(32:53):
even consider the fact that itdoesn't actually feel
comfortable to her.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
There's more of her that needs to be protected,
right?
So again, she is by nature morevulnerable, more sensitive.
What I would suggest to you,husband, is if you like sleeping
naked, then sleep naked.
Just because she's putting onpajamas doesn't mean that you
have to, and you can continue toinvite your spouse to join you,
(33:21):
maybe from time to time, butyou have to.
If you're going to invite, youhave to avoid language which
shames her or pressures her fornot also participating.
You can't get in bed naked andsay, oh, this feels so good.
You really, you're reallymissing out.
(33:42):
I mean, you're ruining any kindof invitation if you're trying
to make her feel guilty by howyou do it or what you say when
you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, and I think also for someone who is clearly
more reluctant to do this, theninviting at a time when she
already feels safe and more freewould be the better call.
So this frankly you need to letgo of the expectation that this
is going to happen regularly,that she's going to embrace it
(34:13):
regularly.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Nobody goes from hating it to loving it overnight
.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
No, and that's not how preferences work.
So instead, invite her at atime when she already feels safe
and a little bit more free,like maybe a getaway in a
luxurious hotel room, is abetter time to make that
invitation versus her bedroom.
That's down the hall from thekids who might need her in the
middle of the night.
(34:36):
Right, that's a whole notherthing.
I mean, we don't know, doesthis couple have kids or not?
But let me just tell you, mostof the time the baby's waking up
, whose side of the bed do theycome to?
And mamas don't want to betotally bare butt.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Often yeah, exactly Often they come into the room
before you have time to even getdressed.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
So make an invitation in a place where she feels a
little bit more safe.
But again, even in that place,that invitation should not come
with pressure.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah.
And so getting back to the why,if you can pursue the why why
does my spouse hate this?
Then I think you might be ableto get some traction in being
able to find ways to get thebenefits of the skin-to-skin
contact.
Again, I won't deny there aredefinitely benefits to sleeping
naked, but it's not just thesleeping naked that is the
(35:29):
benefit.
The benefit comes from theskin-to-skin contact and the
feeling of closeness from there.
So if your wife isn't interestedin doing it that way, what are
some other ways you can do that?
So maybe, before you both getdressed for bed, you just get in
bed naked and cuddle for fiveminutes naked and make sure sex
(35:50):
is not on the table.
I just want to be close to you.
Make sure that the boundariesare well-defined.
Your wife may then feel moresecure in engaging in this.
We know there's a time.
Set a timer.
Tell her I just want to do thisfor five minutes.
I just want to hold you andfeel you and be close to you.
That might be something thatyou could both get on board with
.
Then she can put on howevermany layers of clothes that she
(36:12):
needs to feel comfortable forthe rest of the night and you
both get the benefit of havingthat naked skin to skin contact.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Or spend time embracing at a time when you're
already naked, like after you'vehad sex.
So you know, draw out thatperiod of afterglow.
Don't just rush off to clean upand get dressed, but instead
maybe cuddle.
Then have a little bit more ofpurposeful afterglow time
(36:42):
together and extend that periodof time after sex when you're
already feeling that greatoxytocin high, and just cuddle.
Have all the supplies you needto contain the mess so that you
can cuddle.
I mean other times that you'realready naked, right when you're
showering and when you'rebathing.
So enjoy that together.
(37:03):
Have that be a little bit moreof a regular part of your time
together and just embracing oneanother when you're dressing,
during the day.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, have a naked hug while you're getting dressed
for the day.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I mean so I think the point is that you can find
places to get this skin-to-skincontact that you're loving and
you're appreciating.
You know he says it's a greatsensual way to enjoy each other
without having sex.
That's true, that's great, butit doesn't have to be every
single night in bed beside eachother, naked right.
(37:36):
So look for other ways tosatisfy this.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Absolutely All right.
One more question.
So look for other ways tosatisfy this.
Absolutely All right.
One more question, and that isI crave physical touch, not just
sexually, as a pursuer.
How do I ask for this withoutcoming across as needy, such as
rub my back, hold my hand, hugme?
How do I ask?
So this is actually a little.
The concepts here are very muchin line with what we just talked
(38:02):
about in terms of pursuing in away that is not making, is not
coming across as pressure.
Whatever way, I'm usingpressure as the way to try to
(38:27):
change my spouse's mind versus aconfident pursuit, and a
pursuer who exudes security isjust simply seeking connection
rather than just the pureselfish motives.
So, boiling all that down tosomething maybe more practical
is can I turn this request intoa win-win?
Right?
(38:47):
I want more physical touch.
How can I invite my spouse in away that makes this a win-win?
So what that might look like.
And specifically, the questionis how do I ask?
Well, maybe one way to ask andI don't know what this looks
like in your relationship, butmaybe one way to ask is hey,
babe, take a walk with me whilewe hold hands and talk to each
(39:13):
other.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Right, because, likely, maybe she's looking for
the connection through words,and so you're making an
invitation that invites her tosomething she would appreciate
in a way that also meets what itis that you're craving, that
you're looking for, or somethinglike I would love to tell you
(39:35):
about my day.
How about you rub my back whileI do so?
Right?
So again, you're looking forways that meet a need, a desire
for both of you, and I don't Imean, we're just giving examples
, we don't know what the spouselikes or doesn't like, but
that's your job, right?
So for this questioner, figureout what is it that she craves?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yep exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
And can you find a place to have both cravings
fulfilled?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah, I think the other side of this is to use
words and conversation to try toexpress to your spouse what it
would mean to you.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yes, that is the truth.
On any time you have adifferent preference than your
spouse.
The way to approach that isalways expressing to one another
what it means to you, Becausewhen you put it into words now,
your spouse has the opportunityto hear your heart.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Absolutely so maybe that looks like telling your
spouse you know what your hugsmake me feel, so deeply
connected to you.
Can we hug more often, or canyou just hold me for a moment so
that I can reconnect to thisfeeling of oneness that I want
to continue to feel with you?
(40:56):
Because if your spouse feelslike you are seeking them and
not just their body or not justthe physical act, then your
requests for physical connectionare then not going to be
perceived as needy.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
They're going to be perceived as trying to build
oneness and build connection andbuild relationship Well, and if
your spouse knows that you'reseeking to take care of their
needs as well, then they'regoing to be more likely to see
that your needs are being mettoo.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah precisely so.
Four questions, four longanswers.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Let us know how did we get it right or how did we
get it wrong.
What did we miss?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Absolutely.
We'd love to hear your feedback.
Contact us, as always, byemailing us at podcast at
intimatecovenantcom, or again tosubmit an anonymous feedback or
questions, you can go to ourwebsite intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and your support,
and thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And be sure to check out the show notes, where you'll
find links to our affiliates.
Support the companies that helpto support Intimate Covenant.
You will get amazing discountsand you'll find incredible
companies who are also devotedto supporting marriages and holy
sexuality.
So again, check out the shownotes and you'll find some great
(42:35):
deals there.
Until next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
Hey, jen, I've got a question for you, Actually four
questions.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The first question is the answer is no, just no.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Great.
Today on the podcast, we'reanswering four listener
questions, including how to talkabout sex, the importance of
physical attraction, sleepingnaked and asking for more
physical touch.
Let's do it.
Welcome, friends.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We're Matt and Jen, and this is the Intimate
Covenant Podcast, where webelieve the Bible and great
married sex both belong on yourkitchen table.
That's right.
We are talking about godlymarriage and hot sex and
emotionally fulfilling onenessin that relationship.
That's what we do every monthhere on the Intimate Covenant
podcast and we are so gratefulthat you have joined us.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
We are thankful.
Thanks for joining us.
Thanks for being a part of ourpodcast.
If you'd like to find out moreabout us, you can visit our
website at intimatecovenantcom,and we always love hearing from
you, so feel free to reach outto us with any of your thoughts,
your questions.
You can send that via email topodcast at IntimateCovenantcom.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Love it For our last two episodes.
If you've been following along,we've shared some recordings,
some snippets, if you will, someexcerpts from our 2025 marriage
retreat.
That happened in September.
We always have a Q&A session, alive Q&A session during that
(01:35):
event and really every liveevent that we do and we received
during the course of thatweekend.
We received way more questionsthan we had time to answer.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We could have just done the entire retreat based
off of Q&A.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, no doubt.
I mean I think, if I rememberright, we had something like 40
questions, maybe something alongthose lines.
It was pretty high.
We got to a good number ofthose during that session, but
we had probably four or fivetimes as many questions as we
could answer.
So we felt like some of thosequestions definitely deserved
answers.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Well, probably all of them deserved answers, but some
of them we're going to make forsome great podcast episodes.
So we were like, hey, thanksfor writing our podcast episodes
for us.
So today we are pulling four ofthose questions from those
submissions and we're going toanswer those questions here for
you.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, we're looking forward to that.
Before we get to thosequestions and answers, we do
want to remind you we arebooking marriage weekends for
2025.
Some of that is already in theworks and we're very excited to
hopefully be making someofficial announcements about
some 2025 events coming soon,hopefully to an area near you.
(02:50):
But if you want to assure thata marriage weekend happens in a
location near you, invite us.
We want to come.
We would love to partner withyou and maybe some of your
friends and see if we can makesomething happen at a marriage
weekend in your area.
(03:10):
So give us a call, email,whatever, Find us smoke signals,
pigeons, whatever it takesReach out to us.
We'll be happy to reply andrespond and see if we can make
something happen.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
That's right.
So, like we said today, we'reanswering questions,
specifically questions about howto talk about sex, especially
if the topic is uncomfortablefor one or both of you.
Another question about howimportant is physical attraction
and whether or not you shouldput a lot of value in that in
regards to your spouse'sappearance.
(03:42):
Third question we're going toanswer is about sleeping naked
Maybe pros and cons of sleepingnaked, pros and cons, and maybe
how to introduce that into yourmarriage, if that's something
that you might both beinterested in.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
And the final question is how to ask for more
physical touch without comingacross as being needy.
Yeah, that's a good questionand certainly some principles
that we can gain from that aswell, so we're looking forward
to answering those questionscoming up Again.
If you have questions, though,that you think would make for a
good discussion on our podcast,we'd love to hear from you.
(04:20):
You can email us podcast atintimatecovenantcom, or, if you
would like to submit a questionanonymously, you can feel free
to do that on our website.
If you go to our website,intimate covenantcom slash
podcast, there will be a buttonthere that says contact the
podcast and, as you mightimagine, that's how you contact.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
All right.
So first question coming up,Matt what advice do you have for
couples that have great sex butstruggle talking about sex?
We've tried conversationstarters, but the answers are
always brief.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Interesting.
Well, first, let mecongratulate you on having great
sex.
Yeah, that's great, and wecertainly encourage that.
That's what we're here for.
I would suggest to you, thoughand I certainly applaud the fact
that you are trying to talkabout sex.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
That is an excellent starting place, the fact that
you are having conversations,that you are intentionally
trying to have thoseconversations.
Keep talking.
I think if I could answer thisquestion in two words, it would
be to keep talking.
Now, of course, I can't justanswer a question in two words.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Words than that, though, don't we Matt?
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yes, exactly, but I think number one.
I would encourage you andadmonish you that if you have
great sex now, your sex will bebetter if you are talking about
it, Right right, and that isjust a requisite for having a
good sex life.
That's a requisite for growingyour sex life, your sex life,
(06:08):
and you will not be able tomaintain an excellent sex life,
particularly as you get olderand experience more challenges
to your sex life.
You're going to have a hardertime having a great sex life if
you're not capable of talkingabout it and keeping that on the
forefront.
John Gottman did, of course.
He is the guru of marriagerelationships and a very widely
respected scholar.
(06:29):
He's done numbers of studiesand one of the things that he
found in his studies is thatcouples who don't talk about sex
have less than a 1 in 10 chanceof having an excellent sex life
over the long run.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
That's pretty astounding.
I mean, you might have greatsex for a period, but what his
study found is that, like youjust said, over the long run, if
you're not able to talk aboutsex, it will break down.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Absolutely.
I mean abundant hormones andyoung, physically capable bodies
will get you only so far.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Well, because they don't stay young great physical
bodies.
That's exactly right.
So I think this first starts byunderstanding the benefits of
talking about sex and kind ofwhere you just started there.
But I think it's also learningto not settle for I don't know.
So sometimes, when we're tryingto have conversations about sex
(07:27):
, one or maybe even bothpartners can come up against a
feeling of, well, I don't know,I don't know how I feel about
that, I don't know what I like,because, in part because it's
uncomfortable to talk aboutsomething you've never really
put words to before.
You, frankly, have maybe nevereven put words to it in your own
mind.
(07:48):
So it's that much harder to thenshare, even though you know
we're one and I want to share mylife with my beloved.
It can be hard to find thosewords, and so it can be real
easy to kind of throw out an Idon't know and then just let
that be.
But our encouragement would bedon't settle an I don't know and
then just let that be.
But our encouragement would bedon't settle for I don't know
yeah, I don't know is not aperiod.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
It's not the end of the conversation.
In fact, I would suggest that,if you don't know, that that
should be the beginning of theconversation.
That that is an opportunity,then for growth for both of you,
a place for exploration.
And you know, admittedly, manyof us grew up in homes where we
didn't talk about sex.
(08:30):
We're not used to talking aboutsex.
We don't even have, in somecases, the vocabulary to talk
about sex.
So sometimes this conversationstarts with making sure that you
even have a vocabulary for bodyparts and for the things that
you do, right, and then that canprogress to conversations about
(08:51):
things that we like or don'tlike, or make us feel
uncomfortable, or things that wemight want to explore.
So these are conversations thatmust happen over your lifetime.
These are conversations thatmust happen over your lifetime.
Don't feel like you have to getall of this over in a weekend
or even on a date night or inone conversation.
You can't and won't andshouldn't get this conversation
(09:14):
over in one sitting, so it issomething that you will have to
work on.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Right and I would say , along with the you know that
mindset, matt, of like, keepworking on it.
I think another important thingis, like, don't allow yourself
to just have brief answers,right, like the questioner says,
our answers are always brief.
Well, okay, again, you'restarting somewhere right, but
(09:42):
don't settle for brief answers,and I think that involves being
willing to dig deeper.
And the best way to dig deeperis to ask ourselves and each
other why.
So when you get that briefanswer, hooray, you're talking,
you had an answer.
But the next part is why?
Why that answer?
Why that preference?
(10:03):
Why you know, what is it about?
Whatever the subject is, dig alittle bit deeper and that might
give you five more words, butit's five more words.
You know.
This question kind of hits homefor me, matt, because for us I
know people do not believe thisabout me, but I used to hate
(10:25):
talking about sex and at thebeginning of our marriage, like,
that was terrifying to me andit took a very long time for me
to get comfortable with thisconversation.
You were gracious and beingpatient with okay, it's going to
start with brief answers, butbrief answers are at least
(10:45):
answers.
Then, from there I learned togrow into deeper answers, in
part because I started asking myown self why I stopped settling
for well, that's, I don't know.
That's all I need to thinkabout, that's all I need to say.
So my encouragement, comingfrom experience, is be willing
(11:06):
to talk about it, because justtalking about it makes
everything so much richer anddeeper and healthier and more
joyful.
Like every great emotion youexperience with sex becomes
amplified when you're willing toput words to it.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Absolutely with sex becomes amplified when you're
willing to put words to itAbsolutely and you know, I think
part of this is digging intowhy do we feel uncomfortable
about this or why are we willingto settle for brief answers?
Some of that is likely becausethere are these barriers of
shame that we just don't feelcomfortable about it, or we
(11:47):
don't feel comfortable diggingdeeper into it.
And it's just this greatparadox to me that we often feel
much more comfortable bearingour souls to our bodies, to each
other, than we do feelcomfortable bearing our emotion
and our souls to one another.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, so for a lot of us it's digging into where is
my shame coming from, right?
Oftentimes that inability totalk about sex is coming from a
place of shame, and that may bethat, again, like you were
saying at the beginning, thatthere's just been a lot of
silence that has cloaked sex,and some of that silence is
(12:28):
obviously healthy, right?
I mean, you don't need singlepeople talking about the
benefits of certain sexualpositions, right?
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right that does no one any good.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
That does no one any good, but then that's a
conversation to have within yourmarriage.
So some of it is just learningto set aside the silence because
now is the time for addingwords.
So some of us it's shame fromsilence.
Some of us it's shames frommisusing our sexuality, sure,
and some of us it's shamebecause someone else has misused
(13:01):
our sexuality.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
So let's talk about some ways to maybe break through
some of those barriers or maybeopen up some of those barriers
in an easier way.
I think one of the importantthings that at least helped in
our relationship was to avoidtrying to have these
conversations around the timeswhen you are having sex.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Oh, this was a big one for us, because if we were
going to have a conversationabout sex and then I knew that
immediately following that I wasexpected to do whatever it is
we just talked about, I meanmajor, major pressure.
So for us we learned to havethese conversations completely
separated.
These were conversations we hadwhen we had a long car drive,
(13:46):
just obviously just the two ofus, not with our kids in the
backseat, but anytime that wecould have a conversation
separate from, okay and weimmediately afterwards are going
to have sex, or after, like,don't have this conversation
immediately after sex or afterlike don't have this
conversation immediately aftersex.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
That can feel very critical or blaming or just
uncomfortable because you'realmost judging what just
happened.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
It sure can feel like that, and I think that kind of
goes to maybe the second pointof how to have these
conversations have them in atimeframe and in a way where you
feel safe.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yeah, well, I mean, I think this is the biggest.
This is the overall point ismake sure that you are both feel
secure and safe when you areattempting to have this
conversation.
That does mean certainlyphysically, and that gets back
to the timing of all this.
That also gets to making surethat no one can hear you having
(14:48):
this conversation.
No one else can have you hearyou having this conversation.
Make sure that, physically, youare relaxed and emotionally,
that you are relaxed.
This is not a greatconversation to have.
You know right when you walk inthe door from work, or you know
right when you walk in the doorfrom work, or you know while
you're trying to, you know getready for the day or you're busy
(15:08):
or you know.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Or in the middle of, like, holiday chaos, when your
in-laws are like sleeping in thebedroom next to you.
You know any of those kinds ofscenarios, right?
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Now, if the conversation happens to happen,
then then by all means embraceit.
But for the most part you wantto try to have these
conversations in a time andplace when you are both quite
comfortable and you feel safe.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And I think really the other part of that safety,
matt and this I was kind ofalluding to, that you were so
good at is just approaching thisconversation from a standpoint
of no judgment.
Approaching this conversationfrom a standpoint of no judgment
, only curiosity.
In other words, like,especially for the one who's
maybe a little bit more afraidof the conversation, it's
(15:52):
important that the other spouseask the questions but then don't
judge the response.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
No.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Don't approach it with like a well, why would you
feel that way?
Or, oh, I don't feel that way,I feel this way and my way is
better.
I mean any sense of judgmentlike that can shut down someone
who's uncomfortable with this.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
It's vitally important that when you ask a
question, that your response tothe answer is not judgmental at
all.
It just needs to be a neutralcuriosity and that should be the
motivation for asking thequestion is what is my spouse,
(16:34):
who is my spouse, what can Ilearn about my spouse?
Rather than how can I convincemy spouse to change or do
something different?
So that's the.
I think that's the main.
That has to be the main.
Motivation is curiosity ratherthan judgment or trying to force
change on my spouse.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right, all right, I think that answers that question
, okay.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, that's all we're going to give it.
The next question is I'mashamed how much value I place
on my spouse's physicalappearance.
Self-improvement is a goodvirtue, but how do I ensure my
motives are not immoral orshallow?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I like this question.
It's a little bit of a hardquestion to read, right, but I
appreciate this person askingthis question.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, they're being honest with themselves and I
think that's.
I mean, that's where this hasto start, that's where
everything has to start.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
I appreciate that it starts with I'm ashamed, and so,
in other words, this is aperson who's looking to redefine
how they're viewing theirspouse, their spouse's physical
appearance and the importancethat they're putting upon that.
I do think it's important tosay that physical attraction is
important.
That is a part of our marriage.
(17:48):
We ought to be physicallyattracted to one another.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, this isn't going to work if you're not
physically attracted.
But I think I know that it ispossible to train your physical
attraction.
Yes, you can learn and you canmodify what you are attracted to
.
This is what Paul means byrenewing your minds when he
(18:12):
talks about this in Romans,chapter 12 and other places
where we become a new person inChrist.
Well, to become a new personmeans that I must go from
wanting and desiring things thatI shouldn't want to wanting and
desiring the things that Ishould want.
So I know that it can betrained.
(18:33):
The world would have us believethat, well, I'm just attracted
to what I'm attracted to, or Ijust I am what I am and I want
what I want, and I can't doanything about that.
And that is not true.
That is not how we are made,that's not what God expects of
us.
We can train what it is that wedesire.
Now, that's, of course, easiersaid than done, and that is the
(18:55):
struggle between the spirit andthe flesh, and that is the
struggle that all spirit and theflesh, and that is the struggle
that all of us must face in somany ways.
But it certainly applies.
This principle applies to how weview our spouse's physical
beauty and our attraction totheir physical appearance.
You know, I think one thingthis person says in this
(19:19):
question is thatself-improvement is a good, good
virtue, and I guess I canprobably agree with that on some
level.
I'm not sure exactly and Idon't want to put words in the
in this questioner's mouth, butif this person means that
self-improvement in the sense ofbecoming more physically fit or
(19:42):
having better cardiovascularhealth or being thinner and
fitting into a certain pantssize or dress size or whatever,
whether you are a size you know,15 or size 5, probably has very
little to do withself-improvement in my mind.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Right.
If we're sayingself-improvement is a good
virtue, well, I would hope thatwe would all recognize that,
growing in patience and love andjoy and peace, those are
self-improvements that ought tobe receiving the majority of
emphasis.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
The fruits of the Spirit are virtues where we
ought to be placing our emphasis.
I would think Well, I know, Iknow that that's what Scripture
says.
That is where the benefit comes.
Now, is there value in makingsure that your body is being
well taken care of?
I certainly won't deny that.
(20:43):
I think that the Bible alsoteaches that to an extent.
But even Paul himself says thatphysical fitness is of limited
value.
It's not no value, but it iscertainly of limited value,
particularly in comparison tothe eternal characteristics.
Right, because what my waistsize is right now has almost
(21:05):
nothing to do with what myspiritual body will look like in
heaven.
It just won't, right?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
So prioritize eternal virtues in our spouses and what
you hope to improve and whatyou are.
See the beauty of your spousegrowing in their you know again
their love, their joy, theirpeace.
See the beauty of your spousegrowing in that way, more than
(21:36):
their physical appearance, andthat way more than their
physical appearance.
Now, that said, you know,proverbs 5 says let your wife's
breasts satisfy you.
So yes, your wife's physicalbody is meant for your enjoyment
.
But he doesn't say when thebreast is a certain shape or
(21:57):
size, right, it's just thecommandment is her breast should
satisfy you.
So I think that again goes backto physical attraction must and
can be trained.
I mean all of Proverbs 5 and 6,it's about drinking from your
own cistern learning to see thebeauty in what you have before
(22:20):
you frankly, regardless of howperfect or imperfect that is
Well, no, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I mean, if it's so important that your spouse look
a certain way, I have bad newsfor you.
They will not look the same way10 years from now or 20 years,
regardless of how hot or smokinghot they are now or not.
They're going to look differentin 10 years.
That is just an inevitability.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And if you've put a lot of emphasis in that, well
you might be satisfied for thenext six months.
But guess what?
Most women's bodies aredifferent six months from now.
I wish we would just all acceptthat a little bit more.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Your bodies are meant to fluctuate and so stop honing
in.
This person asked how do Iensure my motives are not
immoral or shallow?
Well, your motives are likelyimmoral or shallow, if you
believe their physicalappearance is all that there is
or is a reflection on you.
(23:23):
So, a lot of people get theirself-worth from what their
bodies look like, but then thatkind of bleeds over into what
does my spouse's body look like.
So if that's where you are,then, yeah, you ought to feel
ashamed.
Now, that shame should motivateyou towards a change in
behavior.
(23:44):
And again, if that's where thisquestioner is, then I hope that
they're coming from a place ofwillingness and a desire to
change.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Yeah, I think a lot of this comes down to what
standard am I using to judgewhether my spouse is attractive
or not?
And if I'm using some standardthat is not based on eternal
priority, if I'm using astandard that's not based on
(24:16):
something that is actually goingto last, something that is
actually meaningful, and if I'mnot judging my spouse, my
spouse's beauty, in the same waythat God is judging their
beauty, then I am being shallowand immoral.
In fact, it is idolatry.
If I am holding my spouse tosome standard that is not godly
(24:37):
or biblical or spiritual, thenthat is idolatry.
That is absolutely.
What idolatry means is to holdsomeone to a standard that is
not godly, whether that's myselfor someone else.
So, rather than comparing yourspouse to some external standard
of beauty, I would encourageyou to begin to focus on loving
(24:58):
your spouse for who they areright.
Think about the passages in 1Timothy 3 or 1 Peter 3.
Yeah, I know those passages arewhat we'd like to go to to talk
about modest apparel, but readmore closely and look at how God
is encouraging women in thosepassages to demonstrate their
(25:20):
beauty.
He's saying their beauty is notabout external appearances,
it's not about what they wear.
It's not how they look, it'swho they are inside.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It is the hidden person of the heart.
And so start learning toidentify that and then call out
the beauty in your beloved whenyou're seeing true feminine
beauty.
I mean learn to be grateful forwho appreciate who they are and
what they do way more than whatthey look like.
(25:51):
Now, I get it.
That.
You know, some of us usuallymen are more physically, you
know, are more in tune withphysical appearances than maybe
women sometimes, and I get that.
I'm not denying that, that'sthere.
But again, you can trainyourself to appreciate who your
(26:15):
spouse is way more than whatthey look like.
Appreciate who your spouse isway more than what they look
like and see them as beautifulas what they look like, because
you see them as the wholeness.
It's not just denying like,well, she's not perfect
physically, but I'm going to bethankful that she's a nice wife
and mom.
No, see the wholeness of whothey are and therefore you will
(26:38):
see them as physically beautiful.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Well, right, when you learn to dwell on and, from a
practical standpoint, the waythat this begins to happen is
when you actually start spendingtime meditating on who your
spouse is and focusing in onbeing grateful for the kind of
person they are.
When you begin to see them andembrace them with that gratitude
(27:02):
of what they are and what theyare offering to you, then the
package that they are in, thatis, their body, is just the
package, and you will learn toembrace and love the package
that they are in, regardless ofwhat it looks like at whatever
time you know you, you lose theum, the obsession with their
(27:26):
young, 20 year old body, becausethey don't have a young, 20
year old body when they're 40.
Uh, and that's how you learn toum, place your spouse on this
pedestal so that they become thestandard of beauty, however it
is they woke up.
Looking this morning is exactlywhat I see as beautiful.
That's how you learn to embracethat, which is by spending time
(27:49):
focusing in gratitude andthanksgiving for who they are
and what they are and what theyare giving you.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Very good, All right.
Next question I enjoy sleepingnaked.
My wife hates it.
How can I encourage her to tryand embrace it regularly?
It's a great sensual way toenjoy each other without having
sex.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
So it's a great question and this is not an
uncommon conflict.
It's not an uncommon placewhere couples agree or disagree.
Often one person of the coupleenjoys sleeping without clothes.
They enjoy the feeling ofcloseness that that affords, and
the other spouse justabsolutely hates it.
Now, in some relationships thedifference in affection for this
(28:46):
kind of sleeping may not bethis great, but it's not
uncommon, and this again justdemonstrates the common theme
that often my desires don'talways and often don't can't
align with what my spouse alsowants and likes.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
So then the question is what do we do with that?
Well, and it's really.
Does my spouse have to come inline with how I feel about this?
That's really the heart of thisquestion, right?
I would say that to thisquestioner if you have pressured
in any way, then you've built abarrier, right?
(29:28):
If you think that yourpreference is the superior
preference, frankly you're wrong, because a preference is a
preference, it is not a.
My way is greater than your way.
Your preference does not haveto be her preference.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, and to his point I mean are there benefits
of sleeping naked together?
I mean, yes, there are.
Skin-to-skin contact createsoxytocin.
It helps to encourage theemotional and physical bond
between two people.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Right.
This is why we put newbornbabies straight up onto mama if
at all possible.
Skin to skin is great.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
It builds connection.
There is benefit to skin toskin contact.
That said, if you put togethera spreadsheet and a PowerPoint
presentation and try to argueyour point with your spouse,
you're not going to change theirmind.
If they have some other hang upto, it's not going to matter
how well you argue the benefitsof sleeping naked.
If your spouse doesn't like it,they don't like it.
(30:32):
I mean, you can tell me all daylong that asparagus is good for
me, but that doesn't mean thatI'm ever going to love it.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Right.
So the question how can Iencourage her to try it and
embrace it regularly?
Well, maybe it's the wrongquestion right, yes, there you
go.
Maybe you're kind of startingfrom a place that is at least
appearing to have a lot ofpressure in it.
So I think the other part ofthis I mean he says it's a great
sensual way to enjoy each otherwithout having sex my question
(31:02):
would be does she view that assuch, or does she actually maybe
feel pressured to have sexevery time that she is naked?
So if you have at all providedthat place of pressure well to
her, then her clothing might bea little bit of a barrier just
to signal that not everything ison the table right now, right?
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Right If I've done a poor job of pursuing in the past
and so my spouse never knowswhen I'm going to be trying to
make a move, and they never knowwhen they're safe to go to
sleep versus when they're goingto be pressured or guilted into
trying to have sex.
If they don't know where thoselines are, then that could be
part of this barrier.
(31:45):
And, honestly, what I don'thear in this question is why
does your wife hate sleepingnaked?
Which suggests to me, perhaps,that this side of the
conversation has never been had.
Now maybe your wife won't tellyou why she doesn't want to
sleep naked.
(32:05):
Maybe she just stops theconversation altogether.
That's certainly possible.
But if I know why she doesn'tlike having sex, more
importantly, if you know why shedoesn't like sleeping naked,
then you might be able toconsider how to address that
barrier.
But again, is it because shefeels pressured to have sex?
(32:26):
Is it because she just feelsmore vulnerable when she's naked
and sleeping?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And I think that's a good point.
I mean, a woman, by nature, isvulnerable and more sensitive,
and so for a woman to becompletely exposed some women
love that, some women it's likefingernails on a chalkboard.
I mean, frankly, women'sbreasts are more sensitive.
I mean, we are designed in adifferent way, and so you might
(32:53):
even consider the fact that itdoesn't actually feel
comfortable to her.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
There's more of her that needs to be protected,
right?
So again, she is by nature morevulnerable, more sensitive.
What I would suggest to you,husband, is if you like sleeping
naked, then sleep naked.
Just because she's putting onpajamas doesn't mean that you
have to, and you can continue toinvite your spouse to join you,
(33:21):
maybe from time to time, butyou have to.
If you're going to invite, youhave to avoid language which
shames her or pressures her fornot also participating.
You can't get in bed naked andsay, oh, this feels so good.
You really, you're reallymissing out.
(33:42):
I mean, you're ruining any kindof invitation if you're trying
to make her feel guilty by howyou do it or what you say when
you're doing it.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well, and I think also for someone who is clearly
more reluctant to do this, theninviting at a time when she
already feels safe and more freewould be the better call.
So this frankly you need to letgo of the expectation that this
is going to happen regularly,that she's going to embrace it
(34:13):
regularly.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Nobody goes from hating it to loving it overnight
.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
No, and that's not how preferences work.
So instead, invite her at atime when she already feels safe
and a little bit more free,like maybe a getaway in a
luxurious hotel room, is abetter time to make that
invitation versus her bedroom.
That's down the hall from thekids who might need her in the
middle of the night.
(34:36):
Right, that's a whole notherthing.
I mean, we don't know, doesthis couple have kids or not?
But let me just tell you, mostof the time the baby's waking up
, whose side of the bed do theycome to?
And mamas don't want to betotally bare butt.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Often yeah, exactly Often they come into the room
before you have time to even getdressed.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
So make an invitation in a place where she feels a
little bit more safe.
But again, even in that place,that invitation should not come
with pressure.
Speaker 1 (35:08):
Yeah.
And so getting back to the why,if you can pursue the why why
does my spouse hate this?
Then I think you might be ableto get some traction in being
able to find ways to get thebenefits of the skin-to-skin
contact.
Again, I won't deny there aredefinitely benefits to sleeping
naked, but it's not just thesleeping naked that is the
(35:29):
benefit.
The benefit comes from theskin-to-skin contact and the
feeling of closeness from there.
So if your wife isn't interestedin doing it that way, what are
some other ways you can do that?
So maybe, before you both getdressed for bed, you just get in
bed naked and cuddle for fiveminutes naked and make sure sex
(35:50):
is not on the table.
I just want to be close to you.
Make sure that the boundariesare well-defined.
Your wife may then feel moresecure in engaging in this.
We know there's a time.
Set a timer.
Tell her I just want to do thisfor five minutes.
I just want to hold you andfeel you and be close to you.
That might be something thatyou could both get on board with
.
Then she can put on howevermany layers of clothes that she
(36:12):
needs to feel comfortable forthe rest of the night and you
both get the benefit of havingthat naked skin to skin contact.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Or spend time embracing at a time when you're
already naked, like after you'vehad sex.
So you know, draw out thatperiod of afterglow.
Don't just rush off to clean upand get dressed, but instead
maybe cuddle.
Then have a little bit more ofpurposeful afterglow time
(36:42):
together and extend that periodof time after sex when you're
already feeling that greatoxytocin high, and just cuddle.
Have all the supplies you needto contain the mess so that you
can cuddle.
I mean other times that you'realready naked, right when you're
showering and when you'rebathing.
So enjoy that together.
(37:03):
Have that be a little bit moreof a regular part of your time
together and just embracing oneanother when you're dressing,
during the day.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, have a naked hug while you're getting dressed
for the day.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I mean so I think the point is that you can find
places to get this skin-to-skincontact that you're loving and
you're appreciating.
You know he says it's a greatsensual way to enjoy each other
without having sex.
That's true, that's great, butit doesn't have to be every
single night in bed beside eachother, naked right.
(37:36):
So look for other ways tosatisfy this.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Absolutely All right.
One more question.
So look for other ways tosatisfy this.
Absolutely All right.
One more question, and that isI crave physical touch, not just
sexually, as a pursuer.
How do I ask for this withoutcoming across as needy, such as
rub my back, hold my hand, hugme?
How do I ask?
So this is actually a little.
The concepts here are very muchin line with what we just talked
(38:02):
about in terms of pursuing in away that is not making, is not
coming across as pressure.
Whatever way, I'm usingpressure as the way to try to
(38:27):
change my spouse's mind versus aconfident pursuit, and a
pursuer who exudes security isjust simply seeking connection
rather than just the pureselfish motives.
So, boiling all that down tosomething maybe more practical
is can I turn this request intoa win-win?
Right?
(38:47):
I want more physical touch.
How can I invite my spouse in away that makes this a win-win?
So what that might look like.
And specifically, the questionis how do I ask?
Well, maybe one way to ask andI don't know what this looks
like in your relationship, butmaybe one way to ask is hey,
babe, take a walk with me whilewe hold hands and talk to each
(39:13):
other.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Right, because, likely, maybe she's looking for
the connection through words,and so you're making an
invitation that invites her tosomething she would appreciate
in a way that also meets what itis that you're craving, that
you're looking for, or somethinglike I would love to tell you
(39:35):
about my day.
How about you rub my back whileI do so?
Right?
So again, you're looking forways that meet a need, a desire
for both of you, and I don't Imean, we're just giving examples
, we don't know what the spouselikes or doesn't like, but
that's your job, right?
So for this questioner, figureout what is it that she craves?
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Yep exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
And can you find a place to have both cravings
fulfilled?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yeah, I think the other side of this is to use
words and conversation to try toexpress to your spouse what it
would mean to you.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yes, that is the truth.
On any time you have adifferent preference than your
spouse.
The way to approach that isalways expressing to one another
what it means to you, Becausewhen you put it into words now,
your spouse has the opportunityto hear your heart.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Absolutely so maybe that looks like telling your
spouse you know what your hugsmake me feel, so deeply
connected to you.
Can we hug more often, or canyou just hold me for a moment so
that I can reconnect to thisfeeling of oneness that I want
to continue to feel with you?
(40:56):
Because if your spouse feelslike you are seeking them and
not just their body or not justthe physical act, then your
requests for physical connectionare then not going to be
perceived as needy.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
They're going to be perceived as trying to build
oneness and build connection andbuild relationship Well, and if
your spouse knows that you'reseeking to take care of their
needs as well, then they'regoing to be more likely to see
that your needs are being mettoo.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah precisely so.
Four questions, four longanswers.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Let us know how did we get it right or how did we
get it wrong.
What did we miss?
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Absolutely.
We'd love to hear your feedback.
Contact us, as always, byemailing us at podcast at
intimatecovenantcom, or again tosubmit an anonymous feedback or
questions, you can go to ourwebsite intimatecovenantcom.
Slash podcast.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Thanks to all of you for listening, subscribing,
rating and sharing the podcast.
We're truly humbled by all yourencouragement and your support,
and thanks especially to ourPatreon subscribers for coming
alongside us in a very real way.
If Intimate Covenant hasblessed your marriage, we'd love
to have you join us too.
Subscribe at patreoncom.
Slash intimate covenant.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And be sure to check out the show notes, where you'll
find links to our affiliates.
Support the companies that helpto support Intimate Covenant.
You will get amazing discountsand you'll find incredible
companies who are also devotedto supporting marriages and holy
sexuality.
So again, check out the shownotes and you'll find some great
(42:35):
deals there.
Until next time, keep strivingand don't settle.
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