Ep. #857: Daniel Bourke – Crisis Apparitions & ESP

Visions of loved ones coinciding with their death or near death are reported in many cultures on Earth. The same can be said of ESP or telepathic experiences. Jeremy welcomes Daniel Bourke to discuss the cross-cultural history of crisis apparitions and extraordinary experiences often described as extrasensory perception. Plus, an app that uses AI to recreate the persona of a deceased loved one.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Five four three two one.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
A confirmed attack is taking place against the United States.
Aliens from an unknown location have been reported in multiple states.

Speaker 4 (00:21):
We are controlling transmission.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
There is another.

Speaker 5 (00:25):
World that awaits, far beyond what we can see and feel,
a place that's anything but ordinary.

Speaker 6 (00:32):
Would you believe? I not think?

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Step into the soul? How the first time?

Speaker 4 (00:41):
Know?

Speaker 7 (00:44):
Alas take expiracies and cover to the pair red not
a weegogo with Jeremy's Scott.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
It's the week of disclosure, right, That's what we're hearing.
I'm sorry to be a pessimist. I'm not holding my breath.
I don't think you should either, But we do have
some breaking news that I guess could help facilitate disclosure

(01:19):
if we don't get it from our politicians and the
extraterrestrials want to come to Earth. Well, you say, maybe
they're already here, and I can't disagree with you on that.
Maybe they are here, Maybe they've been here all along,
maybe we're the extraterrestrials. Who knows. But if it doesn't
happen with members of Congress, or with whistleblowers or any officials,

(01:43):
for instance, if this documentary is a big dud because
it's just more of the same and it doesn't lead
to anything that is promising, it may just be forgotten
like many others that have preceded it. Only time will tell.

(02:04):
But if there were to be an extraterrestrial revelation, perhaps
we might need a meeting point, a destination for these
talks to occur. Now you say, what talks would we need.
You've got some episodes to check out, because we break
down what diplomatic relations would likely have to take place

(02:26):
between an extraterrestrial race and the human race should they
decide they want to show themselves. Well, there's been an
organization that we've been supporting, the Alliance for Extraterrestrial Diplomatic Contact,
who has been working for many years now trying to
get this embassy. To make it a reality, you need

(02:48):
a member nation who is willing to provide the land
and also has to be welcoming to holding those conversations
with an extraterrestrial race. This nation that is apparently now
signed on to host this embassy is not being identified

(03:08):
at this moment in time, but obviously will be at
a later date once the groundbreaking begins. That's the goal,
a meeting place for extraterrestrial diplomatic contact. So the Alliance
for Extraterrestrial Diplomatic Contact has let us know that a
agreement has been reached between this member nation and the

(03:29):
Rialien movement. Of both organizations we have supported and have
done episodes talking about the work that they have been
doing to bring this to reality. So there is the
update et Embassy. An agreement has been signed coming to
a nation somewhere in time, but onto tonight's program, because

(03:52):
that is not what we're going to discuss on the
program tonight. We discuss so much that is a somewhere,
of course, between the pair normal and the abnormal, and
it was only a matter of time before artificial intelligence
and the afterlife meat well sort of. You know, there
is this saying that there is an app for that,

(04:14):
and how true it has become. We love apps, We
use many apps. We encourage the use of apps. It
makes our life so much easier to put this program
together than it would have been thirty years ago, even
twenty years ago, or ten years ago, probably even five
years ago. Not saying that it's easy putting the show

(04:35):
together by any stretch of the imagination, but you get
my drift. There is a new app though, that is
generating some controversy, and you know, we're not going to
name it because they didn't pay me to give them
a commercial. If they are out there listening, though, and
they'd like to pay me to do a commercial for them,
I am open to that possibility. But for now, we're

(04:58):
just going to tell you that it exist, and if
you care to do more research on your own to
find out what it is, well more power to you.
We encourage you to do your own research on anything
that we discuss, and by all means, if you disagree
with any of it, email us into the pair ofbnormal
at gmail dot com, or if you agree with it,
we like hearing those as well. This app uses AI

(05:21):
to create avatars of deceased loved ones. I know some
people are cringing at just that thought. They recommend, well,
apparently you need a three minute video. So if there
is a three minute video, or I guess a combination
of videos that make up three minutes of your loved one,
then they can use or you can use this app

(05:45):
and AI will create an avatar of your deceased loved one.
How many of you are interested in trying that, I
would be interested in hearing from you. There has been
a promotional ad which has generated some controversy as well.
It shows a woman interacting with an AI version of

(06:05):
her dead mother. Critics are calling the concept exploitative, unethical,
reminiscent of maybe that Black Mirror episode. Perhaps you saw
the story told of a young woman who discovers technology
that allows her to communicate with an artificial intelligence that
imitates her boyfriend who was killed in a car crash.

(06:30):
That was the gist of it. Well, this app promises
to resurrect real people, and it has raised serious concerns.
We've heard about these with other technologies and attempts to
digitally recreate the dead. So I don't know how I
actually feel about that, and maybe my feelings might evolve

(06:55):
over time, But on the surface it's it's creepy, nonetheless unethical. Well,
if there's a market for it, maybe that says more
about us as consumers than it does about the person

(07:16):
who created it. They know us better than we do,
and our habits and what we might be interested in,
and who knows, maybe there is a market for this.
There are other ways that the people are having contact
with loved ones. And there's a term that you may
or may not have heard. It certainly is not a

(07:36):
popular term, but I think once you hear it, you'll
realize exactly what we're talking about, and it'll make sense
to you. Crisis apparitions is that term. These are when
people vividly sense they see or hear loved ones at
the moment those loved ones die when you're not with them. Obviously,

(07:59):
if you're with them, you probably would experience something quite different.
But if you are far away in space and time,
as they say, and your loved one passes, you may
get a visitation. There's actually such an instance involving a
jazz and swing singer songwriter Billy Holliday. Something about her

(08:23):
voice just very soothing, I will say. Well, she told
about instantly knowing that her mother had died. Holiday actually
told her manager that her mother had died along with
the time of death, the morning after she actually passed away,
even though she had not been told this yet. Well,

(08:44):
this experience is a classic crisis apparition. And now that
I think about it, I think maybe we have experienced
a crisis apparition in this household. A phenomenon studied by
researchers in which the person receiving the vision has a
strong and immediate sense of the death, even from an

(09:08):
unexpected source. Researchers have proposed several possibilities to this to
explain it, but of course none fully do so, so
it sounds like something that we must discuss, which we
will do tonight. Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.
I'm Jeremy Scott.

Speaker 6 (09:48):
Into the para normal parent.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
Ethically, I think as some people will have a problem
with a piece of technology that allows them not to necessarily, well,
you're not connecting with your loved when you're connecting with
an artificial intelligence that somehow found a clip of their voice,
or maybe you submit a clip of their voice and
then the AI transcribe it and Sally sounds well, just

(10:29):
like Sally, except it's not Sally, and she didn't actually
have that message for you. It's not coming in from
the other side. But there are these natural I guess
we'll call them, you know, we used to call it paranormal.
And how we get into the pair abnormal is because
it is my opinion that far more things are abnormal

(10:52):
than are paranormal, and this really fits right in there
what we're going to discuss tonight. These are natural experiences.
You don't need a psychic, a medium, you don't need
an app These are things that people are experiencing, sometimes
just once at the moment individuals pass, or they're about

(11:16):
to pass, or they're at a crisis in life that
could go one way or another. These are known as
crisis apparitions. These are visions, as we've mentioned, and there's
actually an author who's written a book about this who
I'm honored to have on the program tonight. Daniel Burke, author, poet,

(11:39):
songwriter who has a background in the natural sciences, the arts,
and video game industry. He's been previously published in the
Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, and is the
author of two books, in particular, Apparitions at the Moment
of Death, The Living Ghost in Legend, Lyric and Lore,

(12:00):
and also Telepathic Tales, Precognition and Clairvoyance in Legend, Lyric
and Lore. I've been wanting to talk to Daniel for
quite some time, and here he is into the pair
of normal. Good evening, Good evening, Jeremy.

Speaker 4 (12:15):
I appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 3 (12:16):
Oh, it's my honor to have you on. So, as
we've mentioned, there's this fascination with individuals who are wanting
to connect with the departed, maybe a family member, and
we're familiar with contact that individuals have had through psychics
and mediums using a weege of boards and a variety

(12:37):
of other methods. But what you discuss is a more
natural kind of event. I would say, maybe not a
residual haunting. This is not something that returns time and again,
say in a haunted location, as we've discussed many times
on the program, but rather a thing that doesn't happen

(13:00):
often may only happen once, and it surrounds someone's death.
What is a crisis apparition?

Speaker 4 (13:09):
Absolutely the distinction is the distinction you made is absolutely correct.
I mean, the basic idea of a crisis apparition is
that there are to be clear, they are not just apparitions.
There are many forms in which the kind of intimation
of a distant death can become known to the individual,
but one of the more common experiences, they're often very

(13:30):
kind of quote unquote dull and boring. These are the
kinds of words that were used to describe them in
the early days, and one of the reasons why maybe
they haven't necessarily been written about as much because they're
very similar to each other. However, one of the simplest
ways to get across the idea of the Christs apparition
is to just read one out, if you'll allow me
to a very short one. This was a This was

(13:52):
playwright David Blasco. He was the author of a nineteen
eleven play This was the Return of Peter Grimm, and
he tells us that he went to bed in his
new Port home falls asleep. Almost immediately, however, he's awakened
to the form of his mother standing close to his bed,
and at the time he knew her to be in
San Francisco, but was unaware that there was anything kind

(14:14):
of wrong with her. And as he as he stands up,
she simply smiles at him, reassures him with a smile
as I said, speaks his name, Davy, Davy Davy, which
is what she used to call him in his boyhood,
and then simply kisses him before leaving. She tells him,
do not grieve. All is well, and I am happy,
of course. Plasco then discovers that in far distant in

(14:37):
San Francisco. She had not only had she died at
the very moment in which he had seen her at
the foot of his bed, but she had spoken those
very words as she had passed away, as confirmed by
those around her. So the very basic idea of a
christ's separation is perceiving the form of a loved one,
not always a loved one, but mostly often a loved

(14:57):
one at very much at or in and around the
very moment of their death, at a time when you
couldn't have known of their death by ordinary means.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
And is it primarily just a one way communication as
you mentioned in this case, where the mother makes an appearance,
she says something to her son, she kisses him, and
that's it. Or is there an actual conversation that takes
place in some of these.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
M well, the majority of Cristi's apparitions, they set themselves
apart from more general what are called after death communications,
these more general interactions with ostensible apparitions whom the individual
knows to be dead. With these experiences, though they are
often brief, in fact there's they're often it's often the

(15:48):
case that the ghost or the form of the individual
doesn't actually speak now I want to be clear, they
do speak a lot, but it's it's kind of enough
to be of note that they don't. And this is
then that's actually crept into the folklore. The folklore are
regarding the nature of the nature and behavior of the
ghost in many lands, suggests that ghosts do not speak
until spoken to. For example, I consider the possibility that

(16:11):
there's a link between that kind of folklore fact and
these these kind of real experiences. But to answer your
question more directly, you have sometimes there are some slightly
longer conversations, but in general the idea seems to be
simply to communicate the fact of the death, and this
can be done kind of in a number of ways.

(16:31):
One of the most common is simply the kind of
the waving goodbye, for example, or as we saw with
David's mother, she can they can kind of speak, they
can kind of reassurance in a way that suggests they
will not see each other again. Or they may even
appear in a way which metaphorically represents their situations, such
as with a suitcase, or as if they have or

(16:51):
if they have trained tickets for example. The idea the
message is very simple, where this will be the last
time that we see each other, at least in the
life of the individual.

Speaker 3 (17:02):
Hence the name the living ghost.

Speaker 4 (17:07):
Absolutely the living ghosts. The living ghost actually is kind
of comes from the one of the original some of
the original observations on the crisis operation, which were that
the individual does not actually have to be dead in
order for to be clarified a crisis apparition. So in
some sense it's a living ghost. But the original definition

(17:27):
of christis apparition was drawn up in the late and
eeth century, and it encompassed twelve hours before or after
the death of the individual. Now, me personally, I believe
that that's a little restrictive, and the authors did admit
at the time that it was relatively arbitrary, but it
was helpful to some extent to categorize accounts. But yeah,
you mentioned it's interesting because you mentioned earlier you mentioned

(17:50):
that kind of the hunters and the extent to which
the crisis apparition is separate from those kind of classical accounts.
There is an important similarity, however, in many of those
cases of hunters, where the individual may stay in a
hotel they've never been in before, perhaps kind of have
the strange experience of what they perceived us of was
having an encounter with a ghost. They don't know who

(18:11):
or what it is, but they later discovered perhaps it's
an image, perhaps it's the owner of the hotel who
knows that that was somebody who actually lived. So in
both cases, that death previously unknown is being discovered. So well,
they are distinct, they're connected in that way at least.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
And back to what you were saying, as far as
the timing, we don't know necessarily. In some of these
cases the death has already taken place, it is taking
place at the moment, or it is about to happen.
Would that be an accurate statement.

Speaker 4 (18:39):
That's exactly accurate. And that's for instance, in the day
of the account, we can sorry in the Blasco account,
we can see that like the words that were spoken
at the deathbed were those that were heard by Blasco
at the time, So it suggests that the individual wasn't
necessarily fully gone at the time. However, there are many
many accounts at which the individual is kind of has been.

(19:01):
The timing of the of the account is confirmed such
that the individual wasn't known to be dead at the time,
so it's before during or somewhat after. There is no
there's no distinction as such in that regard in terms
of classification, all right.

Speaker 3 (19:15):
Daniel Burke with us Tonight Apparitions at the Moment of Death,
The Living Ghost in Legend, Lyric and Lore is his
latest work talking about crisis apparitions. Tonight Into the Pair
of Normal. I'm Jeremy Scott.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
It's a newscast so wild you keep coming back for more.
Pair of Normal News with George Henry is next on
Into the Pair of Normal.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Pair of Normal News. I'm George Henry. The Chinese astronauts
who had to abandon their return vessel home due to
damage have returned to Earth. The crew of three touchdown
last week on a different space craft then the one
that carried them to the Tieongong space Station. Their return
was delayed for more than a week after Shenzu twenty

(20:07):
was hit by what officials believe was a small piece
of debris, leaving tiny cranks in the spacecraft's a viewpoint window.
Because of the damage, the Chinamanned Space Agency decided the
capsule wasn't safe for re entry, so it was left
behind and the astronauts departed aboard the newly arrived shen
Zu twenty one spacecraft. The new crew now awaits the

(20:28):
arrival of its return vehicle, which will travel to the
space station unmanned. China has made ten crude missions to
its space station since it was completed in twenty twenty two.
Here a pair ofbnormal news. Every hour on into the
pair ofbnormal.

Speaker 3 (20:50):
You're sitting quietly at home when you see a loved
one standing in the doorway. Their expression is calm but distant.

Speaker 4 (20:56):
Moments later, the phone rings with devastating news.

Speaker 6 (21:00):
He didn't make it.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
Something happens to a person like say they got an accident,
they died. Suddenly they make an appearance to their loved ones.
A crisis apparition is the appearance of somebody at the
time of their death, or possibly at the time of
an extreme crisis when they nearly died. Sudden unmistakable appearance
of someone at the moment they die, or just before.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
You're traveling at the speed of light into the pair abnormal.

Speaker 6 (21:28):
Air abnormal air, abnormal abnormal.

Speaker 3 (21:31):
Or Jeremy Scott and Daniel Burke tonight. Somewhere between the
paranormal and the abnormal. Crisis apparitions apparitions at the moment
of the death is the book is the name of
Daniel's books. So we were talking about the timing of
these experiences. I guess when should we call these crisis apparitions?

(21:52):
When should we not based on the timing alone.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
It's actually a very interesting question and the hard one
to answer, because you know, I suppose technically we should
kind of offer a nod to the authors of the
Phantasms of the Living, those kind of early classicists and
psychologists of the Society for Psychic Research who kind of

(22:20):
drew up those original definitions and say it's twelve hours
before or after, but allow ourselves to understand that anything
after that. Let me say it this way. For me,
what's important is that the individual has discovered a distant
death in a manner that was other kind of defies
ordinary means, because we have to remember that in many

(22:40):
christ separations, when the individual experiences kind of perceiving the
form of a loved one, it's not just that they
didn't know the individual had died. In many cases, they
were unaware they were even unwell, if they were unwell
at all. In many cases, these are very kind of
sudden deaths. For example, car crashes. Many of these accounts
come in during war, during wartime, for example, So like

(23:02):
we're kind of dealing with a very fundamental mystery here,
because for instance, with that and to get slightly wipromed
your question and then come back to it like after
death communications, these general kind of appearances vaporations to individuals.
You know, very often hallucination is appealed to kind of
breathement related hallucinations, which are real thing, are appeals to

(23:23):
our expectations. The individual expects this, therefore it occurs. Now,
there are problems with that in and of itself, but
they cannot apply in these cases because with the Christis operation,
there was no expectation of death, no knowledge of illness,
and therefore the kind of moment itself. In my opinion,
it's a mystery that was while it was honed in
on the late nineteenth century and somewhat followed up on

(23:44):
in the following decades, it has been somewhat overlooked kind
of in parapsychology in general. And I think that kind
of bringing light back onto the Christ that person could
be an interesting and important thing. And yes, again, to
speak directly your question, I personally can honestly say, I
don't know exactly when I would say it isn't a
christ that version, But for me it's less important than
did I discover this death by in this manner as

(24:08):
opposed to or quote unquote ordinary means?

Speaker 3 (24:12):
Sure? So what about the relationship to near death experiences,
because we've heard those who say that this not necessarily
always involves a death, but someone came very very close.
So that speaks to you know, something else that might

(24:33):
be at play here, which could be just about human survivability,
maybe when we are maybe it has something to do
about being on the brink, you know, having as they say,
one foot here and one foot there. I don't know
what are your thoughts. It's possible, of course.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
The issue is that many people die very quickly, and
so there isn't necessarily time for the living mind to
be quote unquote on the brink and therefore kind of
work in such a way as to kind of send
a message. Now that's not to say both things aren't true,
those two things that I'm much exclusive, but just to
suggest that it couldn't necessarily be one. But in terms
of the relations to ship to the near death experience,

(25:13):
that's a really interesting question in many ways, like and
one of those ways that they're the first of all,
let me say there are experiences that have been coined
peak in Diary and Experiences. One of the better papers
on this was written by doctor Bruce Grayson in twenty ten.
Seeing People Unknown to have Died as the name of
the paper for anyone interesting and those are cases which

(25:34):
essentially echo the crisis operation inso much as they inform
of the death. However, they occur while the individual is
undergoing a near death experience. So for example, the individual
maybe maybe maybe pronounced clinically dead. Of course, whatever amount
of time later, they return, sometimes very very much unexpectedly
due to their condition they return. We know that while

(25:58):
in these other worlds journey death experiences, the individual claims
to meet disease relatives very commonly. What's interesting here is
that the individual will meet with relatives that they that
tell them while they're there that they have died. But
the dying individual not only didn't know that, sorry the
dead individual, but couldn't have known that because the timing
of the death was when the individual was having their

(26:20):
near death experience. These are called picking dying experiences. So
then the individual returns to life often offers the information
to those around the deathbed, including many kind of clinical professionals, doctors,
et cetera. And it turns out later that yes, that
individual had died during the near death experience. So that's
one very interesting connection between the two experiences, which is
kind of lesser explored.

Speaker 3 (26:42):
Right, So if we take this at face value, what
is a crisis apparition actually signify in your research?

Speaker 2 (26:51):
What do you what do you think?

Speaker 4 (26:53):
Well, for me, the crisis that apparition is one of
the kind of fundamental vertical human experiences. It's a natural
human experience which seems very to more often than not,
and to be honest, I have seen very little cases
where it is not the case accurately or suggest the
occurrence of a distant death. So what you're seeing is

(27:13):
a concordance between the inner world of the individual and
the external world.

Speaker 3 (27:18):
This is the kind of.

Speaker 4 (27:21):
This is a kind of a synchronistic moment, which is
very challenging to kind of explain under kind of our
current ideas of how mind works and how and its
relationship to matter and our kind of philosophical materialism and
its kind of basis challenged by these experiences. So for me,
it's fundamentally it's fundamentally a common human experience. And to

(27:42):
be clear, that was the goal of this book, was
to show that it wasn't just late twenty late nineteenth
century Victorian England and Germany, et cetera, et cetera, where
these experiences are so common. These experiences are common throughout
the world, and the legends, the myths, the tales, the folklore,
this is a common human experienerience, which, to be honest,

(28:02):
even today, like I've had many hosts tell me during
interviews that they've had this kind of experience, and you
will kind of when you come into conversation about these experiences.
Often individuals will kind of say, oh, I've had an
experience like this, but I've never told anyone, for example,
And there is that kind of obvious, you know, shame
attached to explaining these experiences, but not just that, there

(28:24):
are also they're also very private, personal, meaningful experiences which
the individual doesn't necessarily feel the need to share.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
So yeah, absolutely, I actually, yeah, I get that, because
who's going to believe you that your loved one came
and visited you, you know, and and then they died.
Those who are not open to these ideas are going
to look at you sideways exactly exactly, And.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
If you'll allow me to say like that, there are
kind of some deeper mysteries to the crisis opperation itself
which I find interesting and I could draw the listeners
at ten two Also is that, like, for example, for me,
the fundamental mystery is that the individual who in many
cases have never had a quote unquote hallucination in their

(29:10):
entire life, happened to kind of perceive the form of
the individual who does actually happen to be dying at
a distance at the very time they die. That's the
fundamental mystery. But it actually goes a little deeper, guess.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
Right, So let's go deeper when we continue. Daniel Burke
is our guest tonight. I'm Jeremy Scott. Somewhere between the
paranormal and.

Speaker 6 (29:29):
Abnormal into the paraormal.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Parent Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal. I'm Jeremy Scott.
Our website is Parabnormal radio dot com. Free to listen

(30:02):
on all of the podcast apps to this program. Is
it that subscribe button on any of your favorite podcast apps?
Thanks for those of you who are doing that to
appreciate you listening to the podcast, but we appreciate wherever
you're listening, even if it's on the radio side of things.
Daniel Burke, our guest tonight, apparitions at the moment of death,
the living ghost and legend, lyric and lore. You have

(30:25):
found these crisis apparitions in almost every culture and part
of the world. As we're saying, and you were telling
us right before the break, please continue.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Absolutely like I was going to. Yeah, I found these
experiences like in every culture, among indigenous scribes, among the
kind of rarest law of the least non saints, for example.
One area you find many of these accounts are in
the lives of the saints. And it'll be very easy
to read an account in kind of an Irish higiography.

(31:00):
This is a biography of a saint, of an account
of Saint Columbus, for example, who exits exits his meditation,
enters the room where his brothers are eating, speaks to
them and tells him that such and such has departed
for Heaven at this very moment. And later this news
comes that this individual had died at that moment. It

(31:22):
may be very easy for maybe the individual to read
that and think this is just a tale, this is
just something to kind of bolster the sanctity and power
of the individual saint. And don't get me wrong, it
is and can be, but we need to be very clear,
these are very real experiences which individuals still undergo in
exactly the same form. And I was going to speak
to just a little deeper aspect of the mystery of

(31:44):
these experiences is that it's not just that the that
the the experience, the timing of the experience matches up
with the timing of the death, but often the individual
form of the apparition displays, for example, the nature of
their death upon their form, whether it's a type of wound,
or it could be the clothing even that they're wearing
at that time, which later turns out to recorrect. And

(32:06):
if you'll allow me, it goes even slightly deeper than that,
And this is something I'm working on at the moment,
which that, for instance, we know certain aspects of apparitions
in general from near death experiences, from general encounters with
these forms. Okay, one of them is that they often
appear younger than at the time of death. This is
something we have very commonly. Now we could look at

(32:29):
that and kind of theorize if that's the case, and
if the apparition was a real external thing that is
not entirely dependent upon the individual's mind, wouldn't we expect
that during a Christ's apparition, when you don't know you're
looking at a ghost, you would still see some cases
where they appear younger if it's not solely mind dependent.
And as it happens, that is the case. Even when

(32:50):
even though the individual doesn't know they're looking at a
dead person, in many of these Christ's operations, they may
still appear younger. They may still communicate telepathically, for example.
And to wrapple my point very quickly, the basic point
is that not only the timing matches up, but there
are idiosyncratic similarities between the two kinds of apparitional forms
which connect the two together in such a way that

(33:13):
strongly suggests externality in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
All right, so you say that these apparitions that appear
to people in these moments of death are of all ages.

Speaker 4 (33:26):
Oh, absolutely one during many after death communications. If we
consider the mother who dies at the age of eighty six,
for example, during this and you know she's dead and
you're grieving, and you may have the experience of meeting
her again in the kitchen, for example. The apparitional form,
she appears maybe in her prime, in her thirties, in

(33:46):
her forties, for example. This is very common. The hair
is no longer gray, the wounds are no longer there,
the disease is no longer there. And of course one
could appeal and say, and one did appeal to kind
of expectation fulfillment. Of course, maybe they would appear that way.
It comforts the individual. The problem is that during the
crisis apparition, in many cases the individual apparition also appears

(34:11):
in their prime, maybe in their thirties or forties. However,
the experience here has no indication that they're viewing the
form of a dead person. So my point is that
the fact that that form is expressing a very idiosyncratic
aspect known of apparitions, while it is unknown to be
an apparition, that's a very interesting mystery that's deeply under

(34:33):
explored in this area.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
Interesting. And you say that these are brief encounter.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
Usually very brief, and this actually comes out in the folklore,
the legends, the literature too. So, for example, we had
the David Belasco example, which is very brief. The apparition
spoke a couple of lines and then left. You may,
as I said before, you may get no words. You
may just get a waving goodbye.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
For example.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
But you could look to the folklore of northeastern India,
for example, and there a child is awaiting their turn
of her mother from from fishing. It turned, as it happens, though,
while the child's mother was fishing, she had been killed,
obviously unknown to the child. That night, however, the child's
mother comes to the child in a dream and tells her,

(35:22):
quote unquote, you are waiting for me, but I'm no
longer alive. You find many of these counts in northeastern India.
You can go to Japan and find the same. In
a folk tale that was published in nineteen o eight,
for example, we have a man named Yoichi whose closest
friend agreed with him that if they would if one
would ever die, they would come to the other in
a dream. And as it happens, he awoke one night.

(35:45):
He awoke the night that Yoichi had died, and WHICHI
very clearly spoke to him the words I am no
longer a living man. I am indeed your friend Yoichi spirit.
So the very basic messages. You may not know this,
but I died at a distance, and later these facts
are confirmed. It's the same across cultures, across time, and

(36:06):
it will be the same into the future. People will
continue to have these experiences and very likely somebody that
you know, But.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
No return appearance right by these apparitions, right, because individuals
only die once. They would not appear as a crisis
apparition to us more than once, or would they.

Speaker 4 (36:27):
It's interesting because there are cases in the literature where
there's a couple of things to say here. Actually, it's
an interesting question because there are cases in the liture
where a there are multiple appearance appearances leading up to
the deaths. Now, I don't have this account in my book,
but from the top of my head, there was a
very interesting account wherein the individual had I believe, three

(36:48):
encounters with the operational form of their loved one who
was dying at a distance the initial and in each
kind of each form suggested the kind of the progress
of the death from the crisis to the death itself.
So you can have multiple appearances of an apparition during
these Christ separations. And to expand on that further, for

(37:10):
two quick points. One is more than one person can
experience this at the same time. These are collective crisis operations,
and there are other Christ operations wherein multiple people at
different locations will come together and kind of realize they've
all had an experience of this at the same time
of the individual's death in and around the same time. So, yes,

(37:33):
to answer a question, while it's very rare, these things
can occur kind of more than once.

Speaker 3 (37:39):
All right, interesting and in many different forms. Did I
understand you correctly when you said that earlier.

Speaker 4 (37:46):
Yes, many different forms.

Speaker 8 (37:47):
So, like.

Speaker 4 (37:49):
The one of the more basic forms is just an intimation,
a feeling, a sensation, a kind of a knowing the individual.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
There are cases in.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Some of the work of the Ryans, for example, in
The Gift, there are that's a book called The Gift,
and there are cases in there where a mother is
simply lying on her bed and she just awakens with
the kind of in her words, like this undeniable sense
that her son has died. There's no necessary reason why,
but it's kind of an overwhelming sensation. It's like she's
living in the fact that the person has died, and

(38:20):
of course later it turns out they've died at that moment,
or they may experience a sensation in their chest, for example,
the heart and it turns out that you know, their
loved one had died of a heart attack at that moment.
And then there are the voices. There are many accounts
for example, and these come out very commonly in the folklore,
especially like Irish folklore and Canadian folklore, also where the

(38:42):
individual maybe they simply hear their name spoken. Often often
in the tales it's three times. Coincidentally, in our real
story with blasco Ereer, it was three times. It's interesting
that turned up. But yeah, there are there are vocal
intimations of a dis and death also, and yep, that's
what some of.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
The are interesting. Because it was about a year ago
that I went on the air told the audience we
had a you know, a death in the family. It
was sudden, it was unexpected, it was very very tragic.
And what I have not shared with the audience yet
is that whether we want to call it a crisis

(39:25):
apparition or not, because I don't know that there was
a sighting or anything that was seen or anything that
was communicated. But there was a feeling from what I understand,
that the individual had passed and that news had not
come to pass yet in our household. In fact, it

(39:47):
was it was November twentieth of twenty twenty four that
we experienced that reality. So coming up now in a
day or so, Yeah, so that one's hitting home. I
appreciate what you have shared with us thus far. Tonight,
we've got more time with Daniel Burke, so stick with us.
Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal. I'm Jeremy Scott.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Into the Pair of Normal store. He's open show off
our brand with all sorts of items in the store
at Pairodnormal Radio dot com. There's a parallel universe.

Speaker 8 (40:37):
Fil that separations.

Speaker 7 (40:41):
While we received surreality.

Speaker 8 (40:46):
Over the King, then the truth be known, it's all
into the pair, into the par.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
We discussed the subjects that defy explanation into the Pair
of Normal.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal. Our conversation continuing
tonight with Daniel Burke, author of Apparitions at the Moment
of Death, The Living Ghost and Legend Lyric and Lore.
We're also going to talk about telepathic tales, precognition and
clairvoyance and legend lyric in lore during our second hour
with Daniel. These crisis apparitions that appear to individuals at

(41:51):
the moment of death, before their death, maybe slightly after
their death, in many different forms, very brief encounters. Generally
from what we've lear learned so far, so far across
pretty much every culture and part of the world. Are
these both physical and non physical encounters because what I

(42:12):
had or apparitions, because what I had, you know, described
was not a physical sort of thing. Individuals are experiencing
non physical events, right.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
Yeah, there's it's interesting because you know, like one of
this is one of the kind of the big debates
that raged regarding the nature of the operation in the
late nineteenth century and hope into the nineteen fifties and sixties,
was the kind of work of George Terrel, for example,
like because and also there because the problem is that

(42:47):
there are men well, there are many cases in which
the operation, probably the majority seems to it seems to
be suggest that the operation isn't necessarily physical. It may
glow to some extent and may move through an object, etc. However,
in many of these cases. In fact, it seems to
be in the majority of these cases the apparition itself
is actually indistinguishable from a living person. And this this

(43:12):
is to the extent that, as we mentioned earlier, the
individual is often not even aware they're in the presence
of an apparition or a so called dead person. So
believable is the form for example, so whether or not
they're physical or non physical, like for example, there are
cases in the early literature where it's claimed that light

(43:34):
lighting is blocked, for example, by the apparition, you know,
backlighting maybe from a hallway after a door opens, for example.
And there are cases where like for example, I just
read a case from the work of Evelyn else the
Swiss author Evelyn Elzeizer's work recently, wherein during a crisis apparition,
the individual claimed that they actually embraced their grandmother. So

(43:57):
it's not for me to necessarily say what is the
nature of the apparition when there are so many conflicting reports,
but it's a fascinating question. One other thing that ties
into that is, for example, if you look at the
work of Celia Greene and Charles McCreery in I believe
nineteen eighty, they wrote a kind of an overlooked work
called Apparitions. They've dealt with experiences in which the entire

(44:20):
d during a hallucinatory episode, the entirety of the actual
room itself was part of the hallucination. So, in other words,
even if you're seeing an apparition interact with the environment,
they suggest that even in those cases it may be
non physical because the entirety of the scene is potentially

(44:40):
somewhat contrived. That's why, for me, the interest is that
something ridical occurred, something concrete, synchronistically tied your experience, whatever
it's nature, whatever the nature of that apparition and its environment,
et cetera, something tied that directly to the distant death.
It's that for me is the focus of my work

(45:02):
and my books. But I find most interesting.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
Right, So, we're talking about visual apparitions, but also physical sensations, conversations,
maybe emotional experiences, that sort of.

Speaker 4 (45:17):
Thing, massively emotional experiences in many cases, like especially like
there are many cases, for example, in which the individuals
believe either their belief in the afterlife is bolstered by
these experiences or it's engendered in the first place. These
kinds of experiences actually convince the individual so realistic they are,

(45:39):
for example, are so like they're left they're often left
with no doubt that this was really the mind or
the kind of form of the individual that I love it.
It's unmistakable. They feel it in their bones, they feel
in their body that feel this specific connection and you know,
so there there are case And for me, I found
it interesting that there are many cases in the kind

(45:59):
of olderly that kind of reflect this. You can go
back to ancient Rome, for example, where like what scholar
Debbie Felton Delta called this a good example of a
chrisis a person. It was in seven sixteen BCE and
was said that the individual who had the apparition which
related to the death of the founder of Rome, Romulus,

(46:21):
and he when he told others it kind of it
assuaged them of their grief. Okay, so what's interesting. The
interesting thing about the crisis that person is that it
actually it helps people deal with the grief of the
death itself. And it's it's not enough to just observe that.
The sociologists may find it interesting to just observe that,
but for me, it's interesting to say, well, why is

(46:42):
it that I was so convincing. It's because they they
actually believed what was occurring represented what it's proposed to
be representing. They believe that this really is the form
of their loved one appearing to them, and that's why
they are quote unquote filled all with great joy and
caused to return to the This is a saint's account,

(47:05):
Almighty's testimony regarding the date undoubted beautifaction of their dearly
seased patron. Apologies, that has a bit confusing, But the
point is that the same effects that are observed in
the ancient literature still are observed today.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
And this happens across vast distances, like people who are
separated by hundreds or thousands of miles.

Speaker 4 (47:28):
Oh there's yeah, there's no limit on the distances as
relates to these experiences, you know, there are like this
obviously speaks to like what is the nature of these experiences?
You know, what is the nature of mind? How can
such things occur? Like aren't there aren't their speed limits
in this universe for example? You know, but no, in

(47:50):
these cases, whether it's a woman in England having you know,
having the experience of her son at war across the
other side of the world, or someone in Vietnam, for example,
dying on their mother in America awakens to their form
at the very moment. It's not in many cases not
a moment after, it's not a moment before, it's the

(48:11):
very moment of the death. So it does suggest to
kind of instant instantaneity, if you will. And this kind
of speaks more generally to the nature of what we
have called telepathy, and it's why a lot of these
cases are referenced as a crisis telepathy and whatever it is,
it does seem to be instantaneous. And maybe that's one

(48:32):
of the reasons why mainstream science kind of keeps away
from it to some extent, because if that's to be
taken at phase value, it would it would kind of
pose some issues in that regard.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Okay, so there could be a telepathic connection here that
this uh, you know, when when you're when you're having
one of these crisis apparitions, that telepathy is involved.

Speaker 4 (48:53):
Or esp absolutely, And of course the individual somebody who
thinks that telepathy is kind of restricted to a living
mind may say, well, it can't be telepathy because in
many of the cases they're dead. But of course that
assumes the nature both of death and telepathy to things

(49:13):
which are great mysteries and will we shouldn't be so
quick to put limits on it. Does seem to be
the case that, if anything, the fact that these experiences
are so similar, either before, during, or after the death,
would suggest that the process itself is external to the
mind fundamentally, or at least to the limitations that we

(49:34):
would place on it in relation to whether it's living
or not, for example. So I think it's important, in
these cases, and in these areas where we know so little,
too insomuch as is reasonable, allow the experiences to guide
our research, rather than allow our ideas to guide the research.

Speaker 3 (49:50):
All right, to Daniel work with us tonight, author of
Apparitions at the Moment of Death and also Telepathic Tales.
Into the Pair of Normal. I'm Jeremy Scott will continue
with him in just a couple of moments.

Speaker 6 (50:27):
Into the pair of normal, pair of.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal. I'm Jeremy Scott
talking with the Daniel Burke tonight, author of Apparitions at
the Moment of Death, Living the Living Ghost and Legend,
lyric and Lore and I'll so telepathic tales, precognition and
clairvoyance and legend lyric and lore. So talking about these,

(51:09):
you know, the telepathic I guess connection here. What is
your research found as far as that is concerned.

Speaker 4 (51:20):
Now, to be clear, are you referencing telepathy as it
relates to the Christs Apparation? Or am my general research
on the second book? Okay, well, this book, this first book,
doesn't necessarily go into that in much detail. However, I
do have my own thoughts on it in regarding kind
of my own reading and in these areas like, for example,

(51:40):
like this book fundamentally, just for the interested listener, This
book fundamentally deals with presenting hundreds of accounts of these
app chrisis operations as they occur throughout cultures and throughout time.
This is something that I believe was kind of sready needed,
and I hope that people enjoy it. But the reation
to your question, it seems to me that if we

(52:03):
look at what occurs during episodes of what we call telepathy,
whether it seems that people send receive messages instantaneously regarding
the kind of state or nature of distant things. So
what we can say is that during your death experience,
for example, the same thing seems to occur to these individuals.

(52:24):
So what can we take from that These individuals during
your death experiences, they claim to discover veritical which is
Greek truth telling. It means truth telling vertical information regarding
distant events. For example, the individual who's clinically dead may,
as I mentioned earlier, they may discover the death of

(52:45):
another which occurred at that moment. This is something that
we in the literature associate with telepathy. So from that
we can say there is a connection here.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
What is the nature of it?

Speaker 4 (52:55):
I don't know, but it does suggest that whatever this
phenomenon is that we aid the telepathy we call telepathy
isn't necessarily dependent on a functioning brain and a living
human for that matter. So I think for me that
would be the kind of the most of it go,
the furthest out go. In terms of drawing conclusions as

(53:15):
to the nature of these phenomenon. As they write to telepathy, what.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Are some of the most common kinds of esp.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
Some of the most common kinds. Well, actually, these experiences
are certainly one of the more common kinds as relates
to death. However, there are many kinds like This is
something that hasn't been picked up on a lot in
the literature, is that, like many of these accounts, While
many of these accounts gather around kind of death or

(53:45):
crisis or events of great magnitude in the life of
the individual who's either sending the message or who receives it,
they also often pertain to relatively mundane events or events
that we would consider mundane. The individual may For example,
there was a case of a woman who dreamed of
her of her mother holding a specific blanket with polka

(54:09):
dot pattern on it, a pattern that she hadn't seen
or since she was a child. It was her childhood blanket.
Her mother, as it turns out, arrived the following day
with that exact blanket and brought that blanket over. That's
an example of a very kind of relatively mundane experience.
But these even these mundane experiences, as they're called, can
kind of shake the individual kind of from their kind

(54:32):
of world. A psychologist David Leeder, he said that some
often these people are forever convinced that a purely materialistic
world view is untenable, and that was in relation to
experiences that are relatively mundane. So's it's both and both
can be just as affecting as the other, which I
find interesting.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
All Right, So dreams, in your opinion, are a form
of ESP.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
Well, I wouldn't say that dreams are a form of ESP,
but I'd say that dreams seem to be very conducive
to experiences of VSP, like one of the most for example,
like a very common experience. And this is something that
isn't in telepathic tales, however, it is in a sequel

(55:18):
that I'm working on, and it's called Deja rev and
Desia Visite. Okay, So these are the experiences in which
the individual claims to have dreamed of a specific place
or person before having come upon them in life. These
are surprisingly common examples of what seems to be either,
depending on the case, telepathy or clairvoyance. Some may even

(55:41):
say precognition, but I'm not so sure yet about those.
And these are very common accounts, and again they turn
up in the tales in large numbers. You'll find so
many accounts in the lives of the saints. Are the
founders of famous cities like Mexico City, for example, who
claim that they the spot where they chose to found
the city and why they shows was because they dreamed

(56:01):
of that spot before having come to it, and in
the same way people today still say. For example, there
are many ethnologists. There was one Brazilian ethnologist who claimed
that he dreamed of the college that he went to
many years before he actually went to it, and when
he arrived there he realized, oh, this is the same place.

Speaker 3 (56:20):
What does this mean?

Speaker 4 (56:21):
I don't know, but it's very mysterious. So, yeah, there
are many different forms of these experiences, whether whether it's
a dream or otherwise.

Speaker 3 (56:29):
All right, what were those words you used? It kind
of sounded like deja vu, but it wasn't deja vu.

Speaker 4 (56:34):
Absolutely, yeah, So deja reve which is the experience. It
means it translates directly as already dreamed. It's an extremely
lesser known kind of variant on the dja vu experience,
and it sets itself apart very importantly. And this is
actually the subject of a book that I will be

(56:55):
releasing in the new year in January. This is the
dajah vu. Of course, as we know has already seen.
It's the sense that this has occurred before. It's the
feeling this has this moment has occurred before. But it's
not necessarily tied to an actual experience. It's a vague
sense of synchronicity. Desiah reve is very different. Dejah reve is, oh,

(57:16):
I have dreamed of this place before, very specifically, I
have had a vision of this place before. Not only that,
but maybe I have actually a dream journal where I
had recorded this experience beforehand. And there are often idiosyncratic
details which are recognized such that, like I have, there
are accounts in the work in the book that I'm
working on where and the individuals claim that in real

(57:38):
time they anticipated what was around the next corner, for example,
based on the knowledge they attained in the dream. So yeah,
that's daja reven deja visit a very simply is the
same thing, although it's as it relates, sorry, as it
relates to places rather than people. So they're very much
variance upon the same phenomen in that regard.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
I'm gonna throw one more in there. We're just gonna
confuse everybody tonight. The opposite of deja vu is jamvu,
the feeling that a familiar thing is suddenly strange, unreal,
or unfamiliar. It can occur when a familiar place, person,
or word suddenly seems new, often due to a temporary

(58:19):
disruption in the brain's memory processing pathways. So do you
think that has anything to do with some of these
different states? I guess that we if we want to
call them that that people experience.

Speaker 4 (58:33):
Absolutely, I'm not going to sit here and tell you
that I know the etiology and origins of each specific
account that I collect, but I will say that certainly
some of these accounts will be explained by more seemingly
mundane for Marceene regions reasons. These in the early days
in France and in England in the late nineteen and
even the late eighth sorry, yes, the late nineteenth centuries

(58:55):
and even sometimes the late seventeenth centuries, these were the paramnesias.
These were the in memory and perception errors in memory
and perception. The issue is that you know, we're almost
poisoning the well early on by kind of nailing down
the fact that if this occurs, it's an error in
memory and an error in a glitch in perception. The

(59:17):
issue is that we don't leave the door open for
kind of other explanations which may actually be more reasonable
to appeal to as regards certain aspects of the cases.
For example, there are often very idiosyncratic details that are
discovered ahead of time, regardless details of these places, and
sometimes they're actually recorded in journals. There are a number

(59:38):
of cases, and you'll I'll have to apologize it, don't
have them to hand right now, but there are a
number of cases in the book where the individual actually
recorded these dreams in journals and the later experienced tallies
with the dream. For example, like there's a very there's
an account. Excuse me, there's an account in the Irish Times.

Speaker 6 (59:59):
This is in resting.

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
Just to give that thought. We'll pick that right back
up when we come back after a bottom of the
hour break with Daniel Bork into the pair of normal.
I'm Jeremy Scott, pair of normal news.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
I'm George Henry. Astronomers say interstellar visitors to our Solar
System may pose a small but real impact risk to Earth,
and new research is helping define what that threat looks like.
While there have only been three confirmed interstellar objects so far,
scientists believe a countless number of them have passed through

(01:00:43):
and some may have struck Earth, leaving behind ancient craters.
Simulations by researchers at Michigan State University found that Earth
impacting ISOs are most likely to come from two directions,
the solar apex and the galactic plane. Models show that
while most travel fast, the ones that could actually hit

(01:01:05):
Earth tend to be slower, allowing the Sun's gravity to
nudge them. Their research shows that impacts are slightly more
likely in winter, and that regions near the equator, especially
the northern hemisphere, face the highest risk. Here parabnormal news
every hour on into the pirubnormal.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
People in every nation were discovering mind bending, Earth's shattering phenomena,
telepathy ESP, mind reading.

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
There was something very legit, shall we say, about ESP.
It was uncontrollable, it was unreliable, but nonetheless it existed.

Speaker 8 (01:01:55):
Telepathy is how these people who were contact that the
communication occurs.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
The truth is far more abnormal than we want to believe.

Speaker 5 (01:02:09):
You're headed somewhere between abnormal and paranormal, into the pair
and normal.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
It's a lotpathy and ESP. Talking with Daniel Burke tonight
about his book Telepathic Tales, Precognition and Clairvoyance in Legend,
Lyric and Lore, We've been talking a little bit about dreams.
I had asked whether that was a form of ESP.
He was getting ready to tell us about one particular account,

(01:02:41):
so please.

Speaker 4 (01:02:42):
Do so, Daniel, absolutely, this was an interesting account from
the Irish Times newspaper, a newspaper from my own country
in nineteen thirty one, and it was just a report
from the Zoological Society at the time, and kind of
as I write, and as I write it talked away
near its furthest end was a reference to an interesting

(01:03:02):
lecture on the interest and beauty of birds given by
a respected theologian at the time. This theologian his name
was Reverend Canon Charles Raven, and he opens with a
fascinating dream during this lecture, which occurred during the Great War.
He says that while staying in France in nineteen seventeen,
he dreamed quote unquote for many nights consecutively of birds
nesting upon the rocky shores of a little island. He

(01:03:24):
says that whenever he would reacquaint himself with sleep after waking,
the vision would persistently return, seemingly wishing to impress itself
upon him. He made a very clear this one in
the place he recognized, and this is what's interesting. He
was Fifteen years later, Raven was invited to Dublin Ireland
to Trinity College, which is a renowned college here, and

(01:03:45):
his friend took him to a place called Ireland's Eye,
which is a very small island just about a kilometer
off the coast, and he writes of that experience quote unquote,
there he saw the spot of his dreams, with the
rocks and the spray beating up the cliffs, and myriads
of seabirds supremely careless of his presence. So this is
a typical experience of dreaming ahead of time. And this

(01:04:05):
was fifteen years ahead of time, which is quite interesting
to me. And if you learn me to quickly expand
like well, we in the West would very simply refer
to some sort of glitch or error in memory, which
of course it may be. If we could look at
a tribe, for example of Indonesia, the Trajans, for example,
they have a type of dream called a tindo, a

(01:04:26):
true dream, and in their worldview, it's very common for
the soul to kind of exit the body during the
night and kind of travel of its own accord and
to specifically visit places it's never been before. So for
the terraton, if they have the experience of data visiting
it's very easily explained in their cosmology. Oh it's my

(01:04:47):
soul has probably been here before, for example. So it's
just a matter of the individual's worldview how they explain
these experiences. But obviously more scientific research would be interesting
to do.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
In these areas.

Speaker 4 (01:04:57):
Very little has been done as relates to dayja is
it a specifically?

Speaker 3 (01:05:01):
What do you think that is? I mean, to really
any of these phenomena in particular.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
Absolutely, I mean there was huge interest I say huge,
but I would say very significant interest in these phenomena,
in these telepathic phenomena, in these so called thought transference
phenomena as they were called by in a psychology in
and around its formation, and even the likes of Carl

(01:05:27):
Jung and Sigmund Freud like Young reported and multiple experiences
of this kind of in his work. Like he excited
an example of a student of his. His father had
promised him a trip to Spain if he passed his
final examinations, and the young man actually dreamed of walking
through a Spanish city where the streets led to a

(01:05:48):
square and a Gothic cathedral. He turns a corner and
sees an ornate carriage drawn by a couple of cream
colored horses before awakening. Carl Jung, in his work on synchronosity,
specifically recited the dream that the sorry He recited what
followed that dream, which was if you'll allow me to follow.
He wrote that shortly afterwards, having successfully pass examinations, he

(01:06:12):
went to Spain and recognized the very city of his dream.
He found the square, he found the cathedral, which exactly
corresponded to the dream image. He wanted to go straight
to the cathedral, but he remembered that in the dream
he had turned right, and therefore was curious to find
whether his dream would corroborate further. Hardly had he turned
the corner when he saw in reality the very carriage

(01:06:32):
with the two cream colored horses. So yes, there has
been huge interest in this historically, but in our own
times there's very little interest. And why it kind of
it's fundamentally, in my opinion, it's fundamentally that we have
in academi in Western academia, these deep materialist biases. You know,

(01:06:53):
brain equals consciousness, consciousness equals brain activity. You know, ghosts
equals hallucination. These very basic assumptions that would have to
be the case if everything kind of materialized in the brain,
for example, and it's just biases. And I mean imagine
going you can imagine in being in Harvard and asking

(01:07:14):
could I study, you know, whether or not the crisis
operation I experienced is actually a real thing. It's not
necessarily going to go down well with a lot of people.
But there is increasing interest scientific interest in these areas
from many different quarters. But again it is still relatively
small in the grand scheme.

Speaker 3 (01:07:31):
So when we're talking about, you know, telepathic tales, this
is anything from a premonition, say, something that could happen,
maybe a warning, or even a synchronicity, right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:45):
Absolutely, like one of the whatever. One of the interesting
experience types in telepathic tales, for in my opinion, is
the Norse vardogger. The vardogger. This is a premonitory sight
or sound of a person's arrival. So these are experiences

(01:08:06):
which may take the form of a vision or dream
or an intimation of another kind, in which the individual
claims that, for example, they knew they dreamed that somebody
was actually coming to their home or about to arrive,
and as it turns out they were on the way,
or in some cases it turns that they had actually
intended to leave at the moment of their experience, but

(01:08:28):
decided against it. For example, and there are so many
examples of this kind in the book. For example, a
folklorus named Barry Tolkien. He worked among the Navajo Indians,
and he gave an account from nineteen fifty six in
which he was driving over three hundred miles from Salt
Lake City to a reserve in Utah. When he arrived,
he found that the old Navajo woman he knew was

(01:08:49):
already preparing food for him. This is something very common
in these accounts, that food is prepared. Upon speaking to
her regarding his arrival, she said, quote unquote, of course,
that's why I cooked up all this food. Tolkien, as
he says, expressed great disbelief, noting this woman had no
way to know they were coming, no electricity, no phone,
or even windows. As I write, the rather measured folklores

(01:09:09):
had no doubt these things occurred, although he made very
clear that difficulty in explaining them. And to be clear,
there are dozens of accounts of ethnologists, anthropologists, explorers, social
scientists in journal arriving on indigenous indigenous shores or among
native communities and being greeted as if they were known
to already have been coming. For example, Elmer Miller, this

(01:09:33):
is an anthropologist in Pennsylvania. He gave many accounts. He
gave multiple examples of this kind in the note section
of his book kind of Hidden Away. In the footnotes
in the Grand Czechoregion of South America in nineteen sixty
he briefly pointed out that a practicing pastor of the
Toba people had a vision of their coming the night before,
and that they set out and he said in raising

(01:09:53):
to this vision, he wrote, despite more than a year
in this cultural milieu, I was perplexed.

Speaker 3 (01:09:59):
We got a powd Daniel Burke tonight with us.

Speaker 6 (01:10:08):
To the pair of.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
I'm Jeremy's got somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.
Make sure you subscribe wherever you get podcasts. You can
listen for free word on great radio stations all across
the country. Appreciate each and every one of them for
picking us up. But we know some of you can't
listen to the entire broadcast, or your station only carries
an hour the first or second hour of the program.
So that's the way to catch the entire program is

(01:10:50):
free on podcasts. We're talking with the Daniel Burke tonight,
author of Telepathic Tales, Precognition and Clairvoyance and Legend Lyric
and Lore. I'd like to have you finish up your
thoughts as you were discussing right before the break and
then interested in hearing about you know why you got
into researching till up the ESP and also crisis separations.

Speaker 4 (01:11:13):
Absolutely so as making the point that although it's been
less collected together in one place, many ethnologists and anthropologists
and social scientists, they report experiences which are indistinguished from
such that I believe that the same as what we

(01:11:34):
consider in the West kind of typical ESP experiences. And
I gave the example from South America regarding knowledge of
a visitor's arrival, the visitor being the ethnologists himself. And
what's interesting is that like you find the same thing everywhere.
For example, George Waldron wrote in his History and Description

(01:11:54):
of the Isle of Man, which is between Ireland and England.
He wrote this as he wrote that as early as
seventeen seventy four on this phenomenon, writing that as difficult
as I found it to bring myself sorry just to
go back a little bit he Waldron always found himself
surprised when upon visiting a certain friend, the food was

(01:12:15):
already out, the table was already spread, everything was in
order to receive him, and he had been told by
the person that he had knowledge of his coming by
quote unquote good natured intelligences. Okay, and Waldron whites the
following just in the same way that Tolkien had written
this occurs. But I don't know how Waldron in seventeen
forty four had written that this is a fact. I'm

(01:12:37):
positively convinced by many proofs, but how or wherefore it
should be so has frequently given me much matter of reflection.
So from hundreds of years separated, we see people encountering
the same phenomena and having very similar reactions to it.
And to get back to your to come to your
the second and third part of your questions, Like I

(01:13:00):
will kind of redundantly say that the reason I got
into the second book was from the first book. It
was during the research for the Apparitions at the Moment
of Death that I kind of began to because I
was reading so much technology, anthropology and journals, etc. I
came across so many stories that I realized were indistinguishable
from what had been collected by parapsychologists in the last

(01:13:23):
one hundred years, for example, And I just felt the
need to put this in front of the interested reader.
I don't want to tell the reader what it means.
I don't want to kind of you batter the reader
over the head with anything other than the information itself.
And just to see it all one place is interesting.
And why I got into the actual Christ's apparition in

(01:13:45):
the first place, that would be related to my interest
in in your death experience, because, as I said, people
have those experiences during the end, So it was all
just kind of a natural law of interest from one
interest to another.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
What effects would you say some of these experiences have
had on the individuals? I mean, crisis apparitions can be
very shocking if you're seeing a family member and then
you realize that they have later on past. You know,
telepathic experiences esp. May not be as much shocking to
the core, but they can both all of them can

(01:14:19):
affect individuals.

Speaker 4 (01:14:22):
Absolutely. There are like there are like there are a
wide variety of kind of reactions to these kind of experiences, obviously,
and depending on the individual. And again It's kind of
like any area of human experiences. It can be good,
it can be bad. It can be positive or negative,

(01:14:42):
but even those are not naturally necessarily mutually exclusive. For example,
in many if you look at a lot of the
literature relating to negative near death experiences, near death experiences
in which kind of very frightening, un settling things occur
to the individual not at all, but in number of
those cases, the individual later clarifies that despite the nature

(01:15:04):
of the experience at the time, you know, I now
take these positive benefits for it. I now see why
it had to be that way.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
For example, like my for whatever reason, my.

Speaker 4 (01:15:15):
Receptivity to these experiences was going to was always going
to take this form, for example. So like and again,
when you talk about the effects, I mean, while it's
kind of lesser spoken about, like fundamentally these kinds of experiences,
they really do. They really do shake the individual from
the mondanity, if you want to use that word of

(01:15:36):
ordinary life we're talking about in a moment, in a flash,
the individual's entire relationship to the cosmos can change on
a dime. The individual can go from I don't believe
that those exist, for example, or that there is an afterlife,
or even that there is like necessary meaning to this life,
you know, to there actually is or there could be.

(01:15:57):
It seems like the universe is actually extending an olive
branch to these individuals, you know, giving them the opportunity
to kind of meditate upon their preconceptions regarding the nature
of things. You know, these are very powerful effects, and
they're very less, very little studied, especially for example, amongst
social scientists, who very rarely comment upon these kinds of

(01:16:18):
experiences as they relate to after like beliefs for example.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
So yeah, they can.

Speaker 4 (01:16:22):
The experiences range from you know, a shrug to fear
to fundamental change in the individual.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
Would you say with any certainty that these experiences have
a commonality to them? It sounds like the answer to
that might be yes, because you have found them across
many cultures dating back quite a long time. Is there
a commonality here with people experiencing everything we've discussed tonight.

Speaker 4 (01:16:53):
Absolutely, Like I would say, there are kind of fundamental commonalities,
and then we can kind of speak about more general
things when debate, because like the for me, the fundamental
commonality again speaks to the real interest of my work,
is that human a natural part of the human experience
seems to be the capacity to obtain accurate information regarding

(01:17:15):
events that are occurring or have occurred at a distance.
Okay for me, that's the fundamental that if you look
through all the accounts, through all the periods of time,
as far back as the ancient Egypt, even to some
of the Sumerian tablets, you know, the fundamental aspect is
that there seems to be this capacity shared among humans.
We can then get into the kind of specific similarity

(01:17:36):
between between accounts. You know, the apparition may behave similarly
between you know, across cultures for example.

Speaker 6 (01:17:43):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (01:17:44):
One very quick example comes to mind would be I
looked at many of the Norse sagas, the kind of
great poetic ed as and writings of the of the
Scandinavian countries for example, and Iceland, et cetera. You know,
there during the Christis operation, many of the ghosts they appear,
if they died at sea, for example, they will appear wet,

(01:18:06):
if they died at war in the mode for example,
they will appear with mood upon them.

Speaker 3 (01:18:10):
Okay, Now, then you.

Speaker 4 (01:18:11):
Can go thousands of years later, many hundreds of years later,
certainly to for example Ulster in Northern Ireland, where the
individual informant may say that you know, I saw I
saw my son who was at war. I saw him
in my front garden, walking across the walking coming around
to where he had to get in the back door.
So I went to the back door to see him,

(01:18:33):
opened it. He wasn't there anymore. But however, however, turned
out that he when she saw him, there was mud
Aliver's uniform, and later it finds out that he had
actually died in a trench with Mode Oliver's uniform. The
point being that the same idiosyncratic observation upon the ampersion
is made many hundreds of years apart between two separate parties.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Fascinating conversation that we have had tonight with Daniel Burke.
I'm afraid it does have to end right here, but
I do look forward to having him back at some
point in the future. Daniel, how does the audience contact
you anything you'd like to promote?

Speaker 2 (01:19:07):
Sure?

Speaker 4 (01:19:09):
You can find the work apperson of the Moment of
Death or Telepathic Tales on Amazon, and you can find
me on Twitter. Sorry X these days near underscore death,
underscore fe and now that'll be.

Speaker 3 (01:19:25):
Me fantastic Daniel, best to you. I really enjoyed our
conversation tonight.

Speaker 4 (01:19:30):
Likewise, appreciate you having me on.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
And by the way, Burke is with an O B
O U r K. In case you're searching in Amazon
and you don't put the O in there, I'm sure
if you put in apparitions at the moment of death
or telepathic tales, you probably would get there eventually. But
of course you can just go to pairabnormal radio dot
com click the show's section. You'll find the links to
Daniel's work right there, as you will for any of

(01:19:55):
the episodes on our website. We appreciate you going to
pairnormal radio dot com. And if you are interested in
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So make sure that you find us wherever you listen,
and to give us a follow from the cold, dark

(01:20:17):
depths of a secret dungeon somewhere deep in the remote
Pacific Northwest until we talk next time, friends, somewhere between
the paranormal and the abnormal. I'm Jeremy Scott, good night
and God bless facta user churcher