Ep. #865: John Burroughs & Mark Christopher Lee – Rendlesham Forest UFO Incident

The events that put Britain on the UFO map unfolded in late December 1980 in Rendlesham Forest on England’s east coast when U.S. Air Force personnel reported encounters with strange lights or craft over several nights. Jeremy welcomes retired USAF officer John Burroughs to discuss what he and fellow servicemembers witnessed, the lasting health effects, and what he believes is a secretive race to master UAP technology. Mark Christopher Lee revisits the incident and explores other strange activity that has happened at Rendlesham in the 45 years since those sightings.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Five four three two one.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
You interrupt our program to bring you this important message.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
A confirmed attack is taking place against the United States.
Aliens from an unknown location have been reported in multiple states.

Speaker 4 (00:21):
We are controlling transmission.

Speaker 5 (00:24):
There is another world that awaits, far beyond what we
can see and feel, of a place that's.

Speaker 6 (00:31):
Anything but ordinate.

Speaker 7 (00:32):
Would you believe.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
I not think.

Speaker 8 (00:38):
Step into the song of the first time, no expiracies
and cover to the pair read not a week ago.

Speaker 6 (00:53):
We share the Scott.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Well. I don't think that three iyat List has revealed
itself to be an alien mothership. I haven't seen any
pictures of its close approach to Earth that would indicate such,
but you know, only time will tell. The closest approach
of three I Atlas has come and gone now and

(01:19):
that it is our final show of the year. It's
actually been our best year yet. The number one podcast
on talkstream Lives Paranormal Radio app for four straight years now,
thank you, also one of the top streaming shows, and
of course Talk Media Networks syndicating our show via satellite
to radio stations nationwide. More and more people are hearing,

(01:44):
in fact more than ever, this program, and we think
each and every one of you. This time of year
always reminds me of the Rendelsham Forest incident, because I'm
interested in UFOs and there are those famous events and
this is one of them. In fact, it put Britain
firmly on the UFO map. In December nineteen eighty, over

(02:06):
the nights of the twenty sixth and the twenty eighth,
US Air Force personnel stationed at two nearby bases, rif
Betwaters and Woodbridge bordering Rendelsham Forest on England's east coast,
reported extraordinary encounters after leaving base to investigate lights in
the surrounding forest. They thought it was a plane that crashed,

(02:30):
but it turned out to be much more. In fact,
Lieutenant Charles Halt was recording as he and fellows servicemen
approached the scene.

Speaker 9 (02:44):
Mary air possibly could be a plant, not a small glass?

Speaker 2 (03:01):
What looks like a glass or struck up area here?

Speaker 9 (03:06):
Pretty positive brain? See is that center?

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes? This is what we like that center?

Speaker 10 (03:12):
Thinking up all go off.

Speaker 9 (03:17):
To seven tents.

Speaker 3 (03:20):
Seven seven years.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
That's calling on that point.

Speaker 9 (03:24):
On scale, all right.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
So they go out in search of if they can
find any radiation. So they've got this equipment and they
find what they believe to be a blast site, and
they're still picking up radiation. And this is after whatever
came and landed in the forest came and went. So

(03:53):
the question even remains today, forty five years later, what
did the air force encounter? There were also those civilian witnesses.
One villager in particular reported a mushroom like object flying
over his garden. And it was not the first or
the last time some of this stuff has happened. At

(04:16):
Rendalshom Forest.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
In the heart of Suffolk, England, lies a place shrouded
in mystery and intrigue, Rendelssome Forest. It was here, in
December of nineteen eighty that one of the most compelling
UFO incidents in history unfolded. Witnessed by military personnel stationed
at nearby ra at Bentwaters, they encountered not just lights,

(04:40):
but an experience that would challenge their understanding of reality itself.
But what if these events were not confined to a
single night. One of Randelsome Forests holds secrets that extend
far beyond that fateful December.

Speaker 11 (04:58):
And there was a flash of blinding light and then
the appearance of a pyramidical shaped object. It made no
sound and as I got nearer and nearer and got
under it Hickon.

Speaker 4 (05:12):
In this film, we embark on an extraordinary journey back
to the site where history was made, exploring not only
its story past.

Speaker 10 (05:20):
To start filming as massive helicopter repairs.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
But also its present, a place where strange sounds echo
through the trees and shadows flip.

Speaker 7 (05:28):
Just beyond our visions.

Speaker 4 (05:30):
We will also look into the Cepi process close Encounters
of the Fifth Kind, which claim that through meditation you
can manifest.

Speaker 7 (05:38):
Orbs freaking well and even UFOs.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Could our investigation reveal answers that change how humanity perceives
its place in the cosmos, or will we find ourselves
lost among legends and folklore. One thing is certain, but
lies ahead may redefine our understanding of existence itself.

Speaker 3 (06:01):
William B. Davis, smoking Man from The X Files, doing
the narration for the new film from our guest, Mark
Christopher Lee, the rendallsham Ufo, the British Roswell. Mark Christopher
Lee is a writer, producer, director and musician who's made
several films about UFOs and the paranormal, and he joins

(06:24):
us now.

Speaker 7 (06:25):
Hello, Hello, thank you for having me again.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Oh it's my pleasure. Now, you're not too far away,
at least in the vicinity of where the Rendelsham Forest
incident happened back in the day, right.

Speaker 7 (06:40):
I'm a couple of hours drive away. But yeah, that's
not that far, is it.

Speaker 3 (06:45):
I mean, in the scheme of things, it's it's it
would take me days to get there, you short hours drive.
Is this an event though, that is ingrained in you?
I mean, is this something you grew up hearing about.

Speaker 10 (06:58):
It was the first major UFO case in the UK,
and there were a couple of things that got me into.

Speaker 7 (07:05):
UFOs in the first place. In the paranormal there was
Arthur C.

Speaker 10 (07:08):
Clark's Mysterious World, a TV program in the UK, and
then the X Files, which sounds a bit cliched, but
that kind of.

Speaker 7 (07:17):
Opened my mind a little bit.

Speaker 10 (07:18):
And then you know, this Renders from Forests case was
kind of reinvestigated in the nineties and there's so much
more has come to light, so I wanted to make
a film about it.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
So tell us about the event as you've come to.

Speaker 10 (07:33):
Know it, sure, I mean, like you said in your intro,
is over the Christmas weekend nineteen eighty twenty six, twenty seven,
twenty eight December, the twin Air Force baces, which were
both NATO bases with US serviceman station there. They were
both holding nuclear warheads, which I think is important to mention.

(07:56):
And over that course of the weekend, various officers saw
life in the forest, renders from forest. A couple of
them went out to investigate, Jim Peniston and John Burrows.
Jim Peniston claimed to have seen a triangular shaped craft
and which had landed and he claimed to have touched it.
It had strange hieroglyphics on. Peniston also said that he

(08:18):
had a binary code download, which is quite important.

Speaker 7 (08:22):
I'll talk about that later. And yeah, it's just a
whole weird weekend.

Speaker 10 (08:27):
Then Colonel Holt, as you've alluded to, recorded his trip
out into the woods and that's very very weird what
he saw, you know, and it still can't be explained today.
Something definitely happened that one of two of the main witnesses,
Jim Peniston John Burrows, both suffered from ill health due

(08:48):
to the incident. So something physically happened in that forest
and affected people of course, of those three days.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
And so you believe that nuclear warheads played as significance here.
We've heard that in other instances, the Malmstrom incident probably
the most famous example in the US, but over there
in the UK. Whatever was landing here and maybe was
it a landing or was it a crash had some

(09:20):
interest in those. Will take a break actually come right
back with Mark Christopher Lee and get his thoughts on
that as we talk about the Rendelsham Forest incident tonight,
I'm Jeremy Scott. Somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal.
We will be right back.

Speaker 6 (09:55):
Into the paradormal parent.

Speaker 3 (10:12):
December of nineteen eighty the Rendolsum Forest incident. The filmmaker
of the rendalsrom Ufo, the British Roswell, Mark Christopher Lee,
is with us. So nuclear warheads on the property that
may have played a role here, Yeah.

Speaker 10 (10:31):
I mean there were reports of beams of light coming
down from this alleged craft onto the area where the
nuclear weapons were being stored, which to me sounds quite scary.
There was definitely something there, and I think we need
to look at the context of the time and the place.
It was nineteen eighty it was the height of the
Cold War and this did have you know, nuclear weapons

(10:55):
on the base.

Speaker 7 (10:59):
And also nearby.

Speaker 10 (11:00):
Not many people realize this, but nearby torn From Forest
there were two secret military testing stations. For one of
the better word offeredness whether infamous lighthouse was was also
home to a secret radar technology department, and then on
the other side, not a few miles away, was also

(11:21):
a secret research facility called Martelsham Heath where they're experimenting
with new weapons basically, So you know my thoughts, So
is that a coincidence or has that got something to
do with what we're seen that weekend?

Speaker 3 (11:38):
I mean, I guess the verdict is still out as
far as what the crew actually encountered. Yeah, I mean
some sort Was it a true alien craft? Was it
something reverse engineered? There'd be any of those.

Speaker 7 (11:55):
It could be any of those.

Speaker 10 (11:56):
And the accounts from individuals vary quite a lot, which
doesn't I don't you know vouch this, you know, their honesty.
I just think the way they interpreted what happened to
them was different because maybe whatever it was, you know,
affected them differently and the perceptions were altered. So because

(12:17):
could be dealing with some secret, very advanced technology being
tested out, or we could be dealing with an alien craft.
The thing is, you know, Jim Peniston, he led to
have touch this triangular craft. I had weird hieroglyphics on,
but these claims to have a download of information which

(12:38):
he you know, years later you wrote down as binary code,
which gave a cryptic message. I always kind of dismissed
that a little bit of thinking, or maybe the electromagnetic
effects of whatever it was affected is, you know, this
perception of what happened. But then the weirdest thing happened
to me. After filming all day at Rendelshim, I got

(13:00):
I come in the late hours of the morning and
I just lay down on my bed and all I
could see in front of me were the ones and zeros.

Speaker 7 (13:07):
It's binary code.

Speaker 10 (13:08):
It's like, WHOA, what is going on? That was really
really weird, And you know, I have to be open
to the fact that my mind could be playing tricks
on me. But I've never had that before in my life.

Speaker 3 (13:21):
Well, people may be surprised to learn, although I guess
we shouldn't really be surprised because paranormal events certainly have
a history of repeating themselves, but that this area has
a history of other high strangeness events that happened before
Rendalship and them also happened since.

Speaker 10 (13:40):
Right, absolutely, yeah, I mean it's in Suffolk and England.
The county has got a lot of unexplained phenomena going
back centuries. You've got the will of the Wisps, the
lantern men on the fence, which are these ghostly figures
that would appear on water, got the Black Shook, which

(14:02):
is a cryptid like dog that is supposed to be
the devil taking the form of a dog.

Speaker 7 (14:07):
And a church nearby in the village of Bunger it's got.

Speaker 10 (14:11):
Claw marks on the church door where this dog, this
devil scratched the church door before terrifying the congregation. So
there's a big history of paranormal events in this area.
And what led me to make this film was not
just a nineteen eighty incident which still remains unexplained, but

(14:33):
I spoke an interview to various people who've been there
since and had weird paranormal experiences such as seeing orbs
of light, rods of light coming out of the sky,
and even stones just dropping out of the sky onto
the forest floor. This was an ex police detective John Hanson,

(14:55):
who was an executive producer on the film who caught
co offered two books which I holt on the Rendissance subject. Anyway,
he told me that he'd been to Renders him in
the nineties to basically to do a meditation with his
friends what we call see five now psionics, and during
this meditation, these stones just fell from the sky like

(15:18):
a ports and a stud on the forest floor and
they would.

Speaker 7 (15:23):
Pick him up and they were warm.

Speaker 10 (15:25):
Anyway, he sent these stones off and he showed me
the stones and be sent off to a lab and
they were tested.

Speaker 7 (15:30):
In as light they're just being formed. That is really
really strange.

Speaker 10 (15:34):
And then we spoke to people that have been there
and basically claims have manifested UFOs or cryptids in the forest,
and I've seen photos and videos, so disintrigued me.

Speaker 7 (15:46):
Why is this continuing? Okay, maybe the.

Speaker 10 (15:50):
Nineteen eighty incident could be explained away by secret technology
being tested out, but it doesn't explain why they're still
continuing paranormal phenomena happening every weekend at Renders from forest.
People go there from the UK, all of the UK
to go for these paranormal happenings in this forest. So
it's very very strange.

Speaker 3 (16:10):
One of the unique things about this case is forty
five years is really not so long ago. I mean,
Jim Peniston is still with us, John Burrows is still
with us, he'll be actually on next hour, Lieutenant, and
Charles Halt is still with us. That is very very
rare that you have this many key players in an

(16:30):
all time classic siting who are still alive and are
still taking questions. And I'm not sure if Lieutenant Halt
is taking questions anymore, but certainly John Burrows is and
Jim Peniston are and they're still talking about this incident
to this day.

Speaker 10 (16:49):
Absolutely, and you know, we need to get more of
their testimonies down on the record. When we originally had
the idea for the film because John Hanson executive producer
and had co authored to books for Colonel Charles Holtz,
Charles Holt was going to be in the film, but
for various reason didn't happen, which is why the film

(17:09):
took a different progression. But just for context, that year
nineteen eighty was a kind of record number of sightings
in that area. Wasn't just that weekend, it was the
whole year along the east coast of England, so there.

Speaker 7 (17:26):
Was something definitely happening.

Speaker 10 (17:27):
It's like a UFO wave, which obviously climaux at the
rendushrom Forest incident. But what not many people realize is
that just twenty four hours after this incident we had
the famous cash Landrum incident in Huffman, Texas in the USA,
where a diamond shapecraft was giving off some weird radiation

(17:50):
which caused harm to the people who saw it. So
is the reconnection with that.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Possibly you also document new ever evidence of a cover up.
Who would have been involved in this?

Speaker 10 (18:06):
Yeah, probably the ministry's defense. In the UK, we have
to go back to one of the first kind of
authors researchers, Georgina Bruney, who wrote a book called You
Can't Tell the People about Rendellsham and basically she investigated
it for years but then had the chance to speak

(18:27):
off the record with Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and basically
she asked the Prime Minister, you know, Renderlson, what happened?
And what the Prime Minister said, rather mysteriously, was it
wasn't aliens, But you can't tell the people.

Speaker 7 (18:44):
Why can't you tell the people what was it?

Speaker 10 (18:46):
So that's really, really, really weird, but it's still a
mystery today, something definitely happened, and like you said, we've
got very credible witnesses Jim Peniston, John Burrows, Charles Holtz.
Stuff is something definitely happened to them that weekend. And
you know, Colonel Charles Holt was in the dark. He

(19:07):
was deputy commander of the base, but he didn't know
what was happening. He wrote his famous Halt memo to
the Ministry of Defense, not knowing that hes later that
memo would go public. But he detailed what happened over
the course of that weekend, and you know he wanted
to dance as he didn't know what it was.

Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, still wants answers. Probably the rentalshim UFO the British
Roswell available on Amazon Prime and Apple TV. Mark Christopher Lee,
the filmmaker with US Tonight more to coom into the
Pair of Normal on Jeremy Scott.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Pair of Normal News on George Henry. After nearly a year,
NASA has an official leader. Billionaire private astronaut Jared Isacman
was confirmed by the US Senate this week, ending more
then a year of uncertainty at the Space Agency. During
Senate hearings, Isaacman voiced support for the administration's space priorities,

(20:09):
including returning astronauts to the Moon ahead of China and
eventually sending humans to Mars.

Speaker 12 (20:14):
We are in a great competition with a rival that
has the will and the means to challenge American exceptionalism
across multiple domains, including in the high ground of space.
This is not the time for delay, but a time
for action, because if we fall behind, if we make
a mistake, we may never catch up, and the consequences
could shift the balance of power here on Earth.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
Isaacman's path to becoming NASA administrator was an unusual one,
after being nominated by President Donald Trump, who later withdrew
his nomination, leaving NASA under a series of acting administrators.
Trump renominated him last month. Isaacman becomes the fifteenth NASA
administrator since nineteen fifty eight. Here more pair of normal

(20:57):
news every hour into the pair of minus.

Speaker 7 (21:09):
The events began on the evening of the twenty sixth
of December.

Speaker 11 (21:12):
Serviceman had thought there was a fire in the forest.

Speaker 10 (21:15):
Strange lights were seen about three to four hundred meters
away from an area that was called the East Gate.

Speaker 11 (21:22):
And when they were given clearance in orders to go
out to see what this was.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
We started the assessment from radar and what we were reporting,
felt that we should respond our base.

Speaker 6 (21:32):
As we started to enter the forest, there was a
flash that encompassed the lawyer.

Speaker 11 (21:39):
They discovered it wasn't a fire, but to a very
odd looking UFO.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Pair of normal.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
It's part pair of normal and part abnormal.

Speaker 7 (21:51):
There's nothing ordinary about what's.

Speaker 6 (21:52):
On your speakers into the pair of normal.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
The Jeremy Sky the Rendalshim Forest URFO incident tonight talking
with Mark Christopher Lee, who was re investigated this. Actually
him and a partner went to this site armed with equipment.
Right tell us about that.

Speaker 10 (22:14):
Yeah, We decided the best thing to do was to
go to the forest itself and do our own investigations
see if we could find any unexplained phenomena, and we
went there to test there also the close encounts of
the fifth kind process, whereby through meditation and using your
mind you can manifest UFOs orbs or paranormal phenomena. So

(22:37):
that was the plan, and we took some advice from
some experts like Ray Dove and chayl Ann who were
in the film about what to do. So we also
took an EMF reader for electromagnetic radiation, a metal detector,
and we had various sam recording equipment and we you know,
we did find a lot of unexplained phenomena whilst in

(23:00):
the forest, such as okay, well, we started the C
five plus encounters of the fifth kind process and as
soon as we did, we started hearing a weird electronic
percussive sound bouncing around the forest.

Speaker 7 (23:18):
It was really really strange.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
It was like.

Speaker 10 (23:22):
An old fashioned retro synthesizer from the seventies when someone
was playing it in various parts of the wood. It
was really really strange, and at the same time we
were going to go investigate it. Esther, our assistant director,
was also with us. She had dowsing rods and she
never used in dowsing rods before, didn't know how they

(23:43):
particularly were supposed to work. And they were just spinning
round in front of it, and go what is happening?
And then the EMF reader was bouncing high up the
charts picking up electro magnetic radiation from nowhere. So something
was happening in the forest, and we tried to find
the source of the sound. It kept disappearing, coming again
and we saw orbs of light coming through the trees,

(24:04):
but we couldn't capture them, we couldn't get close to them.

Speaker 7 (24:08):
It was it was a really really weird experience.

Speaker 10 (24:11):
And then on the way back after filming for hours,
it was pitch black and we were all tired, and
on the way back to the car, we heard a
really horrific howl like a werewolf. Bearing in mind we
don't have any wolves in the UK. It's scared the
Bejesus out, and it was like what it was that?

(24:32):
And there's like there's supposed to be some sort of
cryptid in the forest that researches like Nick Redfern had
talked about the rendalshoum shrug monkey, which is a little
bit like sasquatch, but who knows.

Speaker 7 (24:46):
It was very very strange.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
Could this be a testing ground of some sort for
some of these technologies?

Speaker 7 (24:53):
Quite possibly?

Speaker 10 (24:54):
I mean one theory is that's been proposed that when
they were testing out this new highly advanced craft or
weapon in nineteen eighty, maybe it kind of opened up
a portal to other worlds, other dimensions where this strange phenomena,
you know, comes in, which is why people still go

(25:15):
there every weekend in the UK and experience paranormal phenomena.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
There's new evidence that you bring forth in the documentary.
As far as additional witnesses, are these new people who
are telling your story or additional information that's not been
brought Yeah.

Speaker 7 (25:33):
Yeah, it's additional information.

Speaker 10 (25:36):
Our executive producer John Hanson, who runs this fabulous UFO
archive in England and Stratford upon Avon, it's definitely worth visiting.
He's got like one hundreds and thousands of documents on
the renders from UFO and he was one of the
original investigators along with Brenda Butler and Peter Parish, so
we've got all these original These were kind of locals

(25:59):
basically billion UFO investigators that went to the scene documented
damage to the tree line, the radiation levels that were
higher than background. But there was also an interesting map
that we found that was drawn by Peter Parrish at
another local and he claims to have interviewed people at
the time that claimed there were six crafts, not just one,

(26:24):
that descended upon the forest that weekend and they were
all recovered by the US.

Speaker 7 (26:29):
And taking time the same time.

Speaker 10 (26:31):
They have the same weekend, Well, I don't know the
time period, but they were all I mean.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Were the six craft landing at once or six total.

Speaker 10 (26:40):
Various times of the weekend, But they were all recovered
and taken back to a NATO base in Germany, West Germany.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
And how are they recovered.

Speaker 7 (26:50):
By helicopter winched out?

Speaker 3 (26:53):
That had to create quite a sight or was it
done in the cover of darkness?

Speaker 7 (26:58):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 10 (26:58):
I mean that there's only so much details we've got,
but also got other eyewitness accounts at the time from
people that were in the Territorial Army who were camped
nearby that weekend who claim to have seen six craft
and strange lights coming from the forest. So what we're
doing now is interviewing them for a second film, which

(27:20):
should be really interesting.

Speaker 3 (27:22):
So yeah, we focus on the military because that perhaps
adds some more credibility, but as we've also learned, it
doesn't necessarily mean that the evidence or that the analysis
that can be done with the evidence is any better
or any more valuable than say a civilian who might
encounter this activity, which is exactly what happened. I mentioned

(27:47):
there was a villager who reported seeing this mushroom like
UFO come over their garden. Others had to have reported
seeing these in the days and the hours leading up
and following what the military saw out there in the forest.

Speaker 10 (28:07):
Absolutely, I think civilian investigators are definitely, you know, they're
the ones that are going to get the truth out there.
The military one wanted to cover it up, and it
was covered up, like I've suggested. So thanks to the
work of civilian investigators like Brenda Butler, Peach Parrish that

(28:27):
we've got this original information that wouldn't have been released otherwise.
And you know, I think the same with UFO disclosure. Nowadays,
the government's not going to give us UFO disclosure. It
will be through the grassroots, through civilian investigators, researchers.

Speaker 7 (28:46):
That's how we'll get through UFO disclosure.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
I mean, we could hear the audio quality in the
tape from Charles Halt wasn't that good. I mean it
was nineteen eighty It was likely an early cassette device
I could imagine, which degrades the quality, and the microphone
may not have been very good. Video may not have
been an option either back then. But was there any

(29:10):
video of the actual event?

Speaker 10 (29:13):
Yeah, there are rumors that there was video and photographs taken.
I think it was General Gordon Williams basically sent this
away to Germany. So I think there's a good possibility
that there is video evidence somewhere.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
Sent the voto of photos and videos to Germany. Yeah,
I wonder if we ever got them back. Marchostopher le
tonight talking about the red Elsham Forest incident into the
Pair of Normal, I'm Jeremy.

Speaker 6 (29:43):
Scott into the pair of normal Pairum.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
Yeah, I'm wondering if they got the what happened to
the videos and the pictures from the Rendelsham Forest incident
which were sent over to Germany. Sometimes we don't always
hear the end of this. It's like there's these strings
that don't necessarily lead anywhere, And that's what happens with

(30:37):
these stories over time. But was there some sort of
analysis done with this or what happened with them?

Speaker 2 (30:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (30:46):
That's as much information as I can get except the.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Story are there, yeah, which is coming with some of these.

Speaker 7 (30:56):
Absolutely.

Speaker 10 (30:57):
And you know, we also have to be aware that
because of time and stories changing, that things are added
on and things like that. So it's difficult to get
to the actual truth of what happened in nineteen eighty.
But you know, my opinion, something definitely did. There was
physical evidence, the marks on the ground, the higher than
level background radiation, the damage to the trees which showed

(31:21):
that something came in and landed or crashed, whatever you
want to say. There was dictaphone recording which still exists,
which is very strange. And some of the things that
he says about multen Glass coming out of this high
blinking was like, that's not a conventional after or a
lighthouse for instance, something. And you know, I also have
to remember the ill effects that it had on you know,

(31:44):
John Burrows and Jim Peniston, So they suffered ill health
because of what they experienced in that incident.

Speaker 7 (31:51):
So something definitely happened, that's all we can say.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Really well, and others could have as well. If something
was recovering and it was taken to a facility, there
might have been others who were affected. Wondering if Germany
is kind of like the UK's Area fifty one, because
you know, the rumor out here is when there's something
that crashes out in New Mexico or in the Midwest,
it's taken to Area fifty one and then goes somewhere else. Yeah,

(32:15):
there's some sort of a housing base in Germany.

Speaker 10 (32:18):
Yeah, but I think it would be controlled by the
US in terms of, you know, the NATO senior partner,
So maybe it was a NATO Area fifty one.

Speaker 3 (32:29):
So as far as the misinterpretations of people saying this
wasn't a UFO, it was just the lighthouse or some
other natural light, how does that stack up to the evidence.
I mean, the Air Force wasn't confusing the lighthouse, which
was seemingly always in operation for UFOs at other times

(32:53):
of the year, right.

Speaker 10 (32:55):
Yeah, I don't think the lighthouse would have been bright
enough to have such an impact. To look at Colonel
Holt's description of you know this kind of the morton
glass coming out out of this all, and then you
know the way it zipped off and split into numerous
craft or whatever they were. That doesn't fit the account.
And also, you know this craft shone beams of light

(33:18):
down on the weapon storage area.

Speaker 7 (33:19):
That's not a lighthouse.

Speaker 10 (33:21):
And also there's also physical kind of interruptions of radios
and electrical devices such as the big outdoor lights, the
light tools.

Speaker 7 (33:32):
They were malfunctioning.

Speaker 10 (33:35):
So something with an electromagnetic presence was there, it wasn't
the lighthouse. I mean someone suggested that maybe it was
a prank by the SAS, but I don't think so.
I don't know how that would work. If it is,
it is probably the greatest prank of all time.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
I mean is also asking to get shot because if
you're thinking that it could be a threat, I mean,
they could have used deadly force if if they felt threatened.

Speaker 10 (34:05):
Yeah, and you know it was nuclear weapons on the
base as well. It's a bit dangerous really to start messing,
you know, on a base of nuclear weapons, which you
know could trigger World War three.

Speaker 7 (34:18):
It's a bit prank too far in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (34:21):
You mentioned some of the electronical interference. Did you experience
that with some of your devices out in the area.

Speaker 7 (34:27):
We did, Yeah, we did.

Speaker 10 (34:29):
I mean there was mainly the electromf device, I mean
because we had a base reading which was nothing basically,
but every now and again it would just go way
into the red for no reason. I mean there's no
nothing electric around here. We met sure, we didn't have
any electrical honors. So it was really really yeah, really

(34:49):
really weird. And we had the other thing as well,
which happened esther, our system director had bought a new
phone that day to take some pictures on and she
got it out later on it was fully charged and
the battery just drained like that and it wouldn't work
at all and she.

Speaker 7 (35:09):
Had to take it back. It was it was just,
you know, that was really weird. We couldn't explain that.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Did you try to summon this phenomenon into existence while
you were there?

Speaker 2 (35:23):
We did?

Speaker 10 (35:24):
Yeah, that was our intention. And I mean we used
the word invite someone. Sounds a bit kind of a
bit dramatic, but we you know, invited whatever presence is
out there. I mean, I'm a little bit skeptical on
the whole close accounts of the fifth kind, but I
think that the mind does play into this phenomena and

(35:44):
to the paranormal as well. And you know, I think that,
like I said before, paranormal and ufo is are linked
and we're dealing with the same phenomena, and I do
think the mind does play a part in it. So
we did invite the presence in. And another weird thing
that happened. We had all the electronic sounds in the
woods bouncing around, and the orbs of light which we

(36:05):
couldn't find or the source of.

Speaker 7 (36:08):
But the following day in the morning.

Speaker 10 (36:10):
I was home in Hertfordshire, you know, two hour drive away,
and sitting in the garden with my wife and she said,
look at that there above the house, and there was
an orb above the house.

Speaker 7 (36:20):
It's like, what is that?

Speaker 10 (36:22):
Luckily I got it on film as well, but it
was like, did something follow us home? Did we manifest
something and it followed me home?

Speaker 7 (36:29):
Possibly?

Speaker 2 (36:31):
It's weird.

Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah, what other strange things did you experience while you
were out there with guy?

Speaker 10 (36:40):
Well, we had a great sense of disorientation, especially when
we started hearing the electronic sounds. We could feel, you know,
a skin kind of crawling a little bit, and it
was it was like like there was a ghostly presence,
which sounds a bit kind of dramatic, but it was very,

(37:03):
very spooky. And the other strange, unexplained thing that happened
to us that we had this weird medical smell that
we smell in a certain area. It was like ether
or something like that. It was really really weird and
there's nothing around there for this to emanate from. But

(37:25):
you know, that was maybe symptomatic of a paranormal presence,
you know, I don't know, but we did experience it.
You know, obviously we couldn't get that onto camera look
at the spell, but there you go.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
So based on the evidence that you've seen in your
own personal investigation, you would believe that this is a
genuine classic UFO sighting. And even though there may have
been some detractors and may have been some witnesses who
were found to have embellished some statements that that, you

(38:00):
can't take any of that away from the credibility that
this sighting has.

Speaker 7 (38:07):
No, you've got three very credible witnesses.

Speaker 10 (38:10):
You've got Colonel Charles Holt, You've got Jim Peniston and
John Burrows. You can't take away from their testimonies. Okay,
they're slightly different from each other, but they're all very
credible people that had some experience, some very very strange
experience that weekend in that forest. Something definitely happened, and
you know it's still happening now. So you know, we've

(38:31):
been calling it the UK's Roswell, but maybe we should
be calling the UK skin walker because I believe, you know,
this is an epicenter of high strangeness and you know
it's not an exaggeration. People in the UK are going
there every weekend to experience paranormal phenomena. You know, it's like,
you know, most people go to a ghost hunt in

(38:51):
an old haunted house or a castle or something, but
people are going to render from forest to witness this phenomena.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
And one of your upcoming films is going to focus
more on that aspect.

Speaker 7 (39:03):
Well, yeah, possibly, Yeah, it's going to what's your next
film about Mark?

Speaker 10 (39:08):
Well, actually the next film about Sir Francis Bacon and
the Holy Grail, going off on a tangent a little bit,
but going into the ross seclusions, secret societies and ancient
knowledge that's been passed down through thousands of years to
secret societies. So that's that's the next project I'm working
on the money.

Speaker 3 (39:28):
You've got others looking at the rural families, history of UFOs,
religion and other subjects.

Speaker 7 (39:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (39:36):
We did a film called God Versus Aliens which is
out on tub in America, which is about the religious
impact that first contact or disclosure would have on the world.
So that was good fun to make. And then we
had The King of the UFOs where we looked at
the British royal families interest in UFOs and the paranormal
and they were massively interested in rendels from Forest. John Hanson,

(39:57):
our executive producer who wrote these books, Charles Holt, sent
them to Prince Philip and Queen Elizabeth and they wrote
back thanking them for the books and they will add
them to their UFO collection.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
So I was like, whoa again. It's available on Amazon
Prime and also on Apple TV, and you'll find other
streaming platforms as well. The website Mark.

Speaker 10 (40:21):
Yeah, it's ww dot nub and ubfilm dot co dot UK.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
All right, fantastic, you can find a whole list there.
Best to you, Mark, always good to talk with you.

Speaker 7 (40:31):
Thanks, jere May take care.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Fantastic. From the cold dark depths of a secret dungeon
somewhere deep in the remote Pacific Northwest, We'll be back.

Speaker 7 (40:39):
Missed the show live, Listen to it anytime.

Speaker 5 (40:42):
Subscribe to our free podcast at Pairobnormal radio dot com.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
There's a pair of little universe.

Speaker 8 (40:58):
Sebaries.

Speaker 11 (41:00):
Well, we perceived.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Reality.

Speaker 13 (41:10):
It's all.

Speaker 11 (41:15):
Into the padle.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Into the parent, into the.

Speaker 5 (41:23):
Parent, bordering the lines between reality and the unknown. You
were writing into the pair of normal.

Speaker 9 (41:43):
It is.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
It is rare these days that we actually hear from
somebody who is involved in one of the all time
classic UFO cases, and we get that opportunity tonight. It's
the second time that we've had John Burrows here, and
if you know your UFAUX history, you know the named
John Burrows. And then it goes right there with the
Rendelsham Forest case, which is now forty five years old,

(42:08):
right after Christmas in nineteen eighty. Of course, a cold
night perhaps it's starting to it's just nasty out there
where we are. Thankfully we don't have any snow and ice.
It's just wayn and rain and wind. But that's enough.
But to hear it was where this took place, and
he was there front and center, so to speak. And

(42:31):
we welcome back retired Airman first Class John Burrows of
the eighty first Security Police Squadron, who was a present
for these events. As we've talked about tonight, it is
an honor to have you back.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 3 (42:44):
So I mean this history, this anniversary that comes up
every time around this year, I'm certainly it is one
that is significant for you. What are your thoughts on
it in general? Every time this year when the sighting
kind of comes back to the forefront, Well, you know you.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
Obviously you know the December is kind of that month
where you kind of go back and think about what happened,
you know, each year, the one was it the twentieth
or thirtieth, I can't remember. We actually got to go
over there for it. We went over there, filmed over there,
did a bunch of stuff, so that was pretty cool.
But he just takes you back into that mindset of

(43:27):
what happened, you know, And like I said, it's hard
to believe it's been forty five years.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
And as I was saying earlier, it's also rare that
we have so many living witnesses for such a classic case.
I mean, look at the others and many of them
are no longer with us, and here you are living
proof and you've been through a lot. I mean you
basically at one point it was acknowledged by our government
that you suffered, your health suffered as a result of

(43:57):
the content, right right.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
My attorney that was working with me on the overall case,
not the VA part of it, Patris going when we
got the settlement from the VA, rode out press release
and said the military, by the factos admitted your aps
are real. And the reason why he said that was
simply because the fact that the VA does not give
you disability or treat you for something that doesn't happen

(44:23):
in the military. So in other words, you can't get
vacare if you were just in the VA care. But
my case was based off the fact that I was
injured during in the line of duty during the event,
and another individual was with me got the same type
of settlement. So two of us that were out there
on those and during that three night period are being

(44:45):
taken care of through the VA based off the interest
we received during the event. And Colonel Hall just did
an interview Russ Colkart a couple of months ago, a
month ago now, and he even admitted then that what happened,
we got injured during that event. So he's even come
forward now and confirm that that's that the injuries that
we did get injured grade event.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
And these events to transpired December twenty sixth, twenty seventh,
twenty eighth of the year nineteen eighty.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, it started on at three hundred and twenty sixth.
Then they had stuff happened in the night of the
twenty sixth and in the morning of the twenty seventh,
and then the night Colonel Hall was out there was
the night of the twenty seventh.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
In the morning of the twenty eighth, so that would
have been on the third night of this and that's
when that famous recording took place.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Right, The recording and the memo was based off the
all three nights, but he was he was involved in
night three for sure.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
So which night were you involved in?

Speaker 2 (45:42):
Night one and three?

Speaker 6 (45:43):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (45:44):
And this was something that was out of the ordinary
that you were responding to or was it a typical call?
I'm guessing it was.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
No, No, it wasn't even a call. I mean we
were It was Christmas night, early in the morning of
Boxing of twenty six, so we came on duty at
Christmas night at eleven hundred, so we were just killing
time to get off shift. It was about three in
the morning and the guy I was riding with, my supervisor,
saw strange lights in the sky coming down into the forest.

(46:14):
So we reported it and they decided that we needed
to go out and investigate because radars showed something over
the area going down into the forest area, so they
thought maybe something crashed or went down into the area,
So they sent a three man team, myself and security
Soup and his writer went on to the forest to investigate.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
And this was a part of your typical duties. Is
what a security police officer?

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Well, I was law enforcement, so no security would have been.
It was a security thing more because it was something
that was happening, you know, on the perimeter of the base.
Law enforcement was like a regular cop. We took care
of the law enforcement duties, but we were back ups
for security. So since we only had the security soup

(47:01):
and his rider, two law enforcement patrols over there that
one of I went with them for a three man response.

Speaker 3 (47:08):
And this was off base that you were responding.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah, we went off base. Yes, we went off base
to investigate what went down.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
So did you have to get any special clearance.

Speaker 7 (47:17):
To do that?

Speaker 2 (47:18):
That was all done through CSC, the command post, So
I'm not sure exactly what the what you know, how
they came to the conclusion because I wasn't involved in
the phone calls or anything, but they cleared us to leave,
and it was based off of radar contact that saw
something over that area and that went down into the forest.

Speaker 3 (47:38):
So you had permission from your superior to a good Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
We were sent off. We were sent off based by
the shift commander.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Yes, and so this object was found on seen on radar,
and then when you actually physically get to the area,
what do you see.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Well, the first night, it's interesting because there were three
of us, and all three of us remember it differently.
So I remember getting close to it, hitting the ground,
then it kind of lit the area up, that dimmed
and then lit back up and went went up and
went back towards the coast. The airman that was his
first night remembers this getting close to something. Now he's

(48:16):
claimed in an interview did with James Fox that I
actually was still armed. I drew my weapon in a
zaptis and knocked us out. And then the Peniston who
was the security soup has gone into the detail of
we got up close to it, walked around it, took pictures,
wrote in his notebook, wrote saw glyfts, touched it, got

(48:37):
a buynary download. So there's like I said, three different
people remember.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
Three, But nobody actually fired upon this.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
No, no one fired. He just remembered. He just told Fox.
We never talked about that. He just told Fox, I
had my weapon, I drew it and then his zaptas
is what he said in an interview.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
I know what I saw interesting and so, yeah, I
mean seemingly if something had zapped you, you may have
had the physical injuries. Uh, were you in Were you
examined medically after these events?

Speaker 11 (49:08):
Not?

Speaker 2 (49:08):
Not right afterwards. No, it was a few months later
that they discovered the heart murmur, which sent me to right.
Pat they did a bunch of testing, and then later
on down the road is when I start having really
health issues years later, which led to the government refusing
to release my medical records and classifying my personnel and

(49:29):
medical records.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
So was this an actual craft?

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Patterson remembers it as a craft Coban. Second, I remembered
his lights blinding light, Yeah, it was. It was pretty blinding,
the white light part of it when we got close
to it.

Speaker 3 (49:46):
Yeah, all right, And so did anybody report retina or
eye injuries as well?

Speaker 2 (49:53):
I had? I have eye injuries too. I have there's
damage to my right eyewall and I this tendsa has
that too.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yes, my issues present four. The Rendalship nineteen eighty UFO
incident is John Burrows Tonight honored to talk with him
somewhere between the paranormal and the abnormal. Our conversation will
continue in just a couple of moments somewhere between the
paranormal and the abnormal. I'm Jeremy Scott into the pair
of normal, into.

Speaker 6 (50:46):
The pair of normal, pair of normal.

Speaker 8 (51:02):
Just step to bid that, say Si nineteen eighty Strange
light said, the sky, blood smears the.

Speaker 13 (51:17):
Bond tree, the woods lit up like fires, electricity.

Speaker 9 (51:31):
Felt loose.

Speaker 3 (51:40):
Johnny Covin Jerry McCoy with their original Rendalsham talking with
John Burroughs, former US Air Force officer who was a
present nights one and ninete Night three of the Rendalsham
Forest UFO incident, which was incidentse So this blinding light,
what happened next?

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Well, the first night when that happened, Like I said,
I remember, it was bright when we came upon it.
We hit the ground, it dimmed briefly, then it got
bright again and went up into the sky and went back.
Kbansek said, we got close to it. He claims it.
I don't remember. I'm almost one hundred percent sure. Look,
I weapon behind because we were off base and we

(52:24):
weren't allowed to be armed our base. But he somehow
remembers that I was armed with my thirty eight. So
he climbs I drew it and it hit us something
knocked us out, and Peniston was the one. The city
got up, walked around it, touched it, had a binary
download and all that stuff. So two of us just

(52:45):
remember getting close to it, and then after the fact
we both remember all three of us chased it farther
out towards the coast before we lost it.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
So you actually did go in pursuit of it, yeah, briefly, yeah,
but it then eventually just went away.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
It was gone. It just disappeared in the sky. So
it was gone. And the interesting thing about it was
what we remember, at least what I remember was went
quite a distance to get to the coast. So I
went back in eighteen and based off where we started
at the gate, we drove as far as we could
into the forest from the point we dismounted to get

(53:26):
all the way out to where we got where I remembered,
and back. There's no way the time we could have
done it in that timeframe, because it started after three
and it was all over before five. So we just
went back and walked through it all and looked at
it all, and there's no way we could have physically
done all that in that too. Hour period, so and

(53:47):
our watches were forty five minutes slow when we got back.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
So sounds like some classic missing time Yep, it probably was.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
We probably went into a time dilation bubble soon. That's
something that I've worked on for a year just looking
at that area, which I don't know if you're aware
of it. That area back there where we went to
was the British area fifty one. It was awful of
research of fa yeah, all kinds stuff they worked That
was called Orford Nest they worked on right out of

(54:15):
they were the first country to.

Speaker 3 (54:16):
Develop right now was a testing ground of sorts.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Yes, it was a huge testing ground, yeah, of all
kinds of technology. They were working at Mars from heath
on SDI at that time.

Speaker 7 (54:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:27):
So well we talked about that in the last hour,
so interesting that we should hint on it again so
you finish your shift yep, and discussed do you have
to put it into a long entry or anything like that.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
But what ended up happening was not knowing what went
on with at the the at the CC or at
the desk, because the law enforcement desk was on bout
Waters and that's what I was assigned to CSC was
where we went back to turn in. We met to
shift commander he uh we Penison did all the talking,

(55:01):
basically told them what happened. He decided we should go
back out there and look around. There was a group
of people out there. We found the indentations in the
ground and damage to the trees in the area where
we were, so the British Police were there. So basically
from that point we were on break for three days.
So we went on break Friday morning. We were off
till Monday, so I went home, I leved our base

(55:24):
and I ended up going back up to the base
early Saturday morning and I got up on the desk
before midnight shift got off that you know, we were
on mids, went on break. The news shift took over
on mids and I talked to the death sergeant and
they had an incident happened one night too where they
saw strange lights. Shift commander went over there from Bentwaters

(55:46):
to Woodbridge and she had some kind of encounter and
a light went through a vehicles shut it down and
she ended up having a lot of problems with it.
I guess she got relieved to duty and sent off
the base. So that was night too, so I decided,
after hearing about that, two of my guys that I
worked with that worked on flight with we went back

(56:09):
out there for night three. And when we went out there,
Halt's team was already out there, and we ended up
meeting up with him, and eventually Halt let the stins
and I go forward and we got close to something again.
And that was the night that when I got closer,
Adrian saw it come over me, and I disappeared, and
he got knocked to the ground and it kind of

(56:31):
went partially over him, but I completely went into it
and disappeared.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
And reaccured taken somewhere.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Well, I disappeared inside the light form that was areas, all.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
Right, So you didn't disappear inside the craft, but in
the light within the light, it was lights.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
That we've never Penniston was the only one that ever
described it as a craft that I'm aware of.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
Okay, So was this object like actually present at that
level or was it like high higher above the trees
or being projected down onto you?

Speaker 2 (57:03):
Do you have a Well, if you listen to Haltz tape,
because this all happened before I met with him, you
can listen to his tape, and they saw stuff in
the skies. There was stuff going on with that. There
are beams of light coming down. At one point on
his tape, you'll hear he had a beam of light
come down to his feet from whatever was up in
the sky. When I went forward and met with him

(57:24):
and went forward with Adrian, there was like the lights
were up above the tree line, and we started going
toward it, and it came down into the field where
we were, and that's when we got close to it,
and that's when I disappeared into it, and Adrian had
he said it touched like his hands were on the
ground and it came over the top of his hands

(57:45):
and arms. But I went completely in and disappeared.

Speaker 3 (57:49):
So were there craters any sign of impact.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
There were three indentations in the ground for night one,
I said. When we went back out there that morning afterwards,
they found three indentations or a triangular you could triangulate them.
And there was damage to the trees. That was on
night one. As far as the other two nights, I've
never heard of any kind of evidence that supported what we.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Saw on Do you have a thoughts theories about what
it is you saw?

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Yeah, Well, There's two things that stand out about this
because I've done a lot of work on with some engineers,
different scientists. There was a study going on and the
guy wrote the book, his name Andrew Pike, and he
was working on a known phenomenon. It's there the British government.
They know there's a phenomenon in rendals for us, it's

(58:43):
a plasma type phenomenon. It's what a UAP is for sure,
and they were studying it and then our event happened.
So it's pretty good evidence that we were working on
technology there, developing technology, and it worked with SDI drones, lasers, satellites,

(59:04):
radars and all that other stuff. That there was an
interaction between all the systems they were working on, the
weapons systems they were working on, and the phenomenon itself.
And most likely there was a time dolation bubble created
or the phenomenon is the time is a time doalation
time bubble, and that's exactly what Adrian and I encountered,

(59:28):
most likely what we encountered on night one two.

Speaker 3 (59:31):
So something was being tested, as you've described, and you
were witnessed to this.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Yeah, well we probably were involved with what they were
working on and a real phenomenon, which is if you
go into Project Condine, it identifies it as a UAP,
which is something that our own people have changed from
UFOs to UAPs. When the only went public had said
we now have a new termined, you know name for

(01:00:00):
it called you APS. That's when UAP's took off, and
then the the you know, the New York Times paper
article and all that. So transition from UFO to UAPs.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yeah, I sure did portical with John Burrows, Tonight president
for the Rendellshim Forest incidents in nineteen eighty. I'm Jeremy
Scott into the pair of.

Speaker 1 (01:00:20):
Normal, You're a normal News. I'm George Henry. Contact is

(01:00:45):
still lost with NASA's MAVEN spacecraft on Mars. So far,
efforts to re establish communications have not been successful since
it stopped responding in early December. Analysis indicates the spacecraft
was rotating in an unexpected way as it emerged from
behind Mars, and the signal's frequency suggests its orbital path

(01:01:08):
may have changed. Teams continue to study the data to
determine what may have caused the loss of contact. MAVEN,
short for Mars Atmosphere and volatile Evolution, is one of
four orbiters that relay communications for the Perseverance and Curiosity rovers.
It launched in twenty thirteen and arrived at the Red

(01:01:29):
Planet the following year. Here pair of normal news every
hour on into the pair of normals.

Speaker 13 (01:01:42):
Of like fives vitreousity.

Speaker 2 (01:01:53):
News. We don't know actually.

Speaker 5 (01:02:06):
Sat quiet, aw.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Grow grow stop we lost it, says shot.

Speaker 7 (01:02:26):
At in count.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
Show.

Speaker 6 (01:02:33):
You're traveling at the speed of light into the care
of normal.

Speaker 12 (01:02:40):
All right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:40):
We're talking with John Burrows, who was present for two
of the three nights of the Rendlesham Forest incident in
late December, right after Christmas, actually after they had returned
to duty after Christmas early morning hours the next day,
and then that happened the next night and the following night.

(01:03:03):
And I'm wondering if this was ever discussed. I mean,
you mentioned you you had different stories. Did you learn
that you all had different stories through media or was
there a point in time when you know you had
actually discussed it with each other.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
We didn't Seattle, Dase, Penicila dat base.

Speaker 7 (01:03:28):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
We drove back and forth together from to work. He
was new and he got moved off a flight really
fast and put in the back office. So I didn't.
I wasn't around him more than a week or so
more after the event, Command sect of dun Base, so
we never really discussed it afterwards. The interesting thing about
it was we got came back on Monday and we

(01:03:50):
got told the right statements. There's a whole different angle
with some people remember being called in to be interrogated
and all the other stuff. I don't remember every interrogated.
I remember writing the statement that's publicly available, and it
was just on night one, given it to Halt and
we had to go in front of Halt, then the

(01:04:10):
base command and Wink commander, and that was it for me.
But Peniston remembers being interrogated and all that other stuff,
so does Mestenza and then Commansek. I've really never talked
to him. He was brand new on flight, he was
security and a few years later or years later, I
tried to get him to get into the Encounters book

(01:04:31):
that we did, and he wasn't interested because after he
did the interview with James Fox, he claims the RS
came knocking and it scared him, so he didn't want
anything more to do with any of it. So I
never really did get to go in detail with what
he remembered other than what little he said in the
interview he did with James Fox.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
So you think maybe there's a reason here that each
one of you remembers it differently or tell it differently.
I mean, we've heard of the UFO amnesia effect, you know,
and things like that, and.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Well, I'm going to go into it in the book
I'm going to release sometime late spring early summer, and
it's called a Project Rentals from Crossing the Threshold. There's
a ton of evidence, documents, foy as I've done that
support the fact that when you interact with this phenomenon
and affects you in different ways, what you remember, how
you remember it for each individual. Never mind the fact

(01:05:31):
that if you get time dalation involved, So let's say
one of us goes into time dilation bubble, we're going
to be somewhere different. We're no longer in the same
time that you are. If you're outside the bubble, it's different.
Everything slows down or speeds up. In my case, I'm
pretty sure it slowed down, because that was always the
effect I had when the Night one and three. Everything

(01:05:53):
seems slower the closer we got to it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
So so now that you've had a while to think
about this, was there like some sort of secretive race
to reverse engineer to master some of this technology that
was taking place here.

Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
Perhaps, well, if you go if you look at what's
going on right now, if you go back to that timeframe,
I don't know if yeah, there's a race, because you
could just go back and look. The Russians were looking
at exict technology before we even started. After World War Two,
their scientific group that came from Germany, they went more

(01:06:33):
into the exotic field. We went more into the bullets,
rockets and everything else, and then they realized that we
were behind in that area. That's when Project Stargate got started.
Different things took place of around Stargate and stuff like
that because the Russians were ahead of that. There's a
guy by the name of a Lieutenant Colonel Bearden that

(01:06:54):
you can look at find books that he wrote about this.
We were behind the Russians in this area. So they
were really looking at this type of technology, including SDI.
But if you just go back to this latest movie
that just came out, the people that were involved in
these projects says the race to this technology is go
ongoing and whoever masters it will control the next one

(01:07:16):
hundred years. So I think Jay Stratton said that in
that movie. So it's like the next Manhattan Project, and
it probably did start back and was being worked on
right outside the back gate of Mountwater.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Someone bridge not only would control things on Earth, but
also in space perhaps as well.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
Well, Yeah, that's that's the whole thing, because if you
understand time dilation, you could, like darp is admitted they're
working on a small device that can go on a
backpack of a soldier and what happens is you disappear,
You're no longer you're here for a minute, you go
somewhere else. It's like cloaking. So if you can activate

(01:07:56):
that system around the soldier, tank, an aircraft, as ship,
So say like for example, you were going to shoot
at somebody or the tank or whatever. As it cloaks,
it's no longer where it's been identified, and the weapon
system would just go right where it was, but it
wouldn't be there anymore. It's gone. And that's the technology

(01:08:19):
they're working on, and it is based off of UAP technology.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Really we really have something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Yes, there's documents to support it. DARPA is working on
all this stuff, how put off the business stuff that
they got. He was working on a project with tanks
being able to cloak the tank. The problem they've had
is the energy to have the energy feel to be
able to activate the bubble, and then the computing to

(01:08:48):
keep up, because think about this, you're disappearing, so you're
going into a different dimension or slowing down or speeding
up in time. But when you come back out of it,
you've got to end up somewhere else. The computing systems
got a compute to keep put you back in a
safe zone where when you reappear. It's kind of like
the Philadelphia experiment, right, it really is. And one of

(01:09:11):
the key pieces of equipment that they use in this
is called a Marx generator.

Speaker 3 (01:09:15):
John Burrows with US tonight his books By the Way
RENTLSROM Signals from the Threshold, The Hidden Race for UAP
Technology and Weaponization of an Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon The Rentals
from Forest UAP Incident forty years later. Those would be
his latest and he's got another one coming out, and
there's some older ones as well that you can check out.
From the cold dark Depths of a Secret Dungeon somewhere

(01:09:37):
deep in the remote Pacific Northwest. Will wind down our
time tonight with John Burrows somewhere between the paranormal and
the abnormal. I'm Jeremy Scott into the pair abnormal. We'll
be right back.

Speaker 6 (01:10:26):
Into the pair of normal, pair.

Speaker 3 (01:10:28):
Of John Burrows tonight from the Rendelstrom Forest incident on
into the pair of normal. Forty five years ago this happened,

(01:10:50):
and that we've been talking with him about what exactly
he witnessed, what others witnessed that night, and what he's
come to believe actually has taken place. There's nuclear weapons
facilities within the vicinity. Does that play a role here?

Speaker 2 (01:11:08):
I don't think so. No, I don't think it had
anything to do with it. I think it had to
do with Mars from heath ari At Bouzi and the
technology they were working on there, and coober Miss have
been there but they shut it down, but they didn't
completely shut it down. They kept some of it and
utilized it there. So I don't think it had anything
to do with the allegend new grow upons. It may

(01:11:31):
or may not have been there.

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
Interesting. What are your thoughts on disclosure? I know you
were hinting at some of the proceedings in including that
recent movie Age of Disclosure. So, I mean, it's been
forty five years since your event, and I'm I've been
looking into this stuff for twenty years and waiting for

(01:11:53):
it to happen. I don't believe it will happen in
my lifetime. Do you think disclosure official capital d lesure
is going to take place in your lifetime?

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
Well, here's the thing. We've got confirmation already. Big Ol'
talked about that a few years ago with NAP where
we're not talking about it, they're doing doing hearings. There's
clearly something out there that it's not being explained by
our government. I was asked to go up and meet
the Arrow Committee, meet the Gang of A testify in

(01:12:23):
front of Congress, and I refused because everything they've done
so far is just hearsay. I understand you. A witness
is coming forward and saying they saw this, they did this,
but there's no heart evidence. It's been presented. The press
is interested, but there's no smoking gun or document. The
guy that was the closest was the last hearing, I

(01:12:44):
forget his name, where he came on and they were
talking to him. He was working in these projects, and
he said, first of all, I can't talk to you
about any of this unless we go on to skiff. Said,
but even if we go into the skiff, none of
you will have the clearance to be clear to hear
what I know. So this stuff is so locked down
in SAP programs for a reason. As far as the

(01:13:06):
government and the military is concerned. It's all technology that
they're utilizing or working on. They don't want the Chinese
and our Russians to know what we have or don't
have and what we can do. So they're clearly not
going to disclose to the public what they have or
don't have. So if they admit to anything or any
documents that come out, it's going to basically it'll start,

(01:13:29):
you know, it'll open Pandora's box. So they've gone about
as far as I think they're going to. Now, if
something that's out there that they're aware of that may
be going to interact with this going forward, that may
force the issue. And I clearly think Steven Spielberg's moving
next year is really going to juice this all up.

(01:13:50):
I don't know, you know how much farther it's going
to go, but This is the kind of stuff that
the President doesn't totally know what's going on about, or
do most members of Congress. So it's compartmentalized. It's SSAP programs.
So yeah, the odds of disclosure are are, you know,
way out there. If ever, in my.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
Opinion, it comes down to a need to know, and
even presidents and members of Congress don't have that need
to know right well, they.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
Don't have the clearance. I mean, that's a lot of it.
I mean you could just go down the list of
different things that the DoD or Department Award does. President
wants something done and they just change the mission statement
or whatever, and so they're technically followed as orders, but
they're they're still there, like they're still in Iraq, they're

(01:14:37):
still in Syria. He wanted them out, President Trump did
the first term, and they just changed the statement from
being a combat unit to a training unit. There's all
kinds of things that go on that our Congress isn't
aware of. In fact, Mace said, they vote on these
SSAP programs. They're just given a number. It's up or down.

(01:14:58):
They want a five billion for this program. They don't
even know what the program is. They just agree to
give them five billion within the defense contract, so they
don't have access to all the good stuff. So there's
no oversight and we're not going to get disclosure. It's
just not going to happen.

Speaker 3 (01:15:16):
Yeah, it sounds like not in your lifetime, not in
my lifetime, and unless there's.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
Something lifetime, unless whatever we're dealing with, which is real,
I believe. I don't think it's nuts in both UFOs
like Hard and Craft necessarily or a biological beings, but
there is a life form that we're dealing with, and
if it decided it wanted us to know, then I
don't think they could stop it.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
So okay, mentioned the word life form. So where do
you stand on this aliens, non human intelligence, that sort
of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
Anyhry non human intelligence. It's it's a life form. It's
in condine, they minutes. Real UAPs are real. The British
government moved it in the early two thousands. Of you,
we moved it forward right before right after twenty seventeen.
I can't remember if UAPs were discussed before the New
York Times article or after, but they moved forward into

(01:16:10):
that in the early two thousands, and so that is
a life form a UAP is real. It's a life form.
It's just not a biological being as as it's been
presented in all these UFO shows and everything else. That's
hard part with nuts and bold tephology.

Speaker 3 (01:16:30):
So this particular case rentalship, you know, obviously happened over
in the UK, but it was these are US air
bases and so it would have been investigated by.

Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
Actually, see I'll clear the fact that they were not
US air bases, they were NATO bases. Yes, the US
was part of NATO. We leased, the NATO leased the
basis from from the British and the NATO charter was
completely different than what the British did. So, like I'll

(01:17:03):
give you example, people claim that there couldn't be nuclear
weapons there. Actually if you go to the NATO charter,
all these NATO bases had nuclear weapons on them. Off
the NATO treaty.

Speaker 3 (01:17:16):
Who would have been in charge of investigating this sighting,
They would.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
Have come from Langley, they would have come in. There
was a team that came in afterwards, it's been verified
there was a team of NSA was involved, CIA was involved,
d i A was involved. Then then the Air Force
OSI and the Navy was.

Speaker 3 (01:17:37):
Involved, but the British government as well, m I six,
m m I five were involved. Yes, interesting and so
much like we had blue Book. You mentioned Condine, which
is not to be confused with the Condn remort, but Condyne.
That was the British government's hack.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
They they did it. They had an engineer that may
have been involved in the original Rendols from incident in
the fifties, if I remember right, they had an encounter
over rendals from an aircraft chase something. I'm pretty sure
the guy that ended up leaving the RAF became an engineer,
was working for Marconi right outside the back of when
it happened. He wrote the report, Condom Report that covered

(01:18:23):
everything involving what UAPs are and what the government knew.
A lot of it was blacked out, but in that
report he said, we were that rentolsrom for US individuals
were exposed to UAP radiation. So that was part of
what was used to get my settlement with the United States.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Government right, and you deserve every penny of it. By
the way, I can tell you that much.

Speaker 2 (01:18:46):
Anybody that gets injured in the line of.

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
Oh we lost to John Burrows, he was talking about
getting injured in the line of duty. They must not
one of wanted to hear him talk about that anymore.
I don't even know if we get him back in
the time we have left. I was going to ask
him if he had experienced other events out there. Can

(01:19:11):
we get him back? I don't think we're no. I
don't think we're going to be able to in the
time that we have. But maybe for another program, maybe
on the fiftieth anniversary, we can have John Burrows back
and ask him if there were other events that happened
out there. Based on what we've heard tonight, it does
appear there were additional events out there, paranormal and otherwise,

(01:19:36):
not all of them involving UFOs and he remembers lights,
but others. Remember craft a perspective is important here, and
I think we should not discount as well the capabilities
of whatever it is that we're dealing with that they
would have or not have, the ability in this case

(01:19:59):
to to influence thought, which means you could remember something
differently than others because your memories are transplanted. And that's
not too far fetched, although it may sound far fetched
if you're new to this topic. Individuals have reported these
download experiences throughout the years where things happened to them

(01:20:24):
that they didn't remember or were not a witness to,
and yet there they are friends. This is it for
the year. It pains me not to be on the
air as many nights as were off the air, But
these next two weeks are special for me and my family,

(01:20:48):
and I'm sure you can respect that We're going to
step away, regroup, come back in twenty twenty six stronger
than ever. Your support this year has really meant so
much to us. Myself and my wife and are two
kiddies from the cold, dark taps of a secret dungeon
somewhere deep in the remote Pacific Northwest. In twenty twenty six,

(01:21:10):
We'll talk to you good night, and God bless