Ann: Mental Health and Religious Trauma

Ann Russo founded a private practice, turned into a larger corporation, AMR Therapy, to provide mental health services for marginalized communities. She has researched and studied religious trauma and how that intersects with mental health. More recently, she has created trainings for other mental health professionals surrounding trauma with Christianity and has gotten a book deal to focus on religious trauma as a whole. 

 

Ann’s Practice: https://www.amrtherapy.com

Ann’s Website: https://www.annrusso.org

 

Donate to the podcast: https://ko-fi.com/introducingmepodcast 

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Artwork: instagram.com/vashaundesigns 

Music/Editing: youtube.com/colemanrowlett

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
-
- Hello and welcome to Introducing Me.
I'm your host, Sarah. Istarted this podcast to get
to know other people and lifestyles while

(00:22):
discovering more about myself.
Each episode I'll givea new guest a chance
to discuss their background,culture, interests,
or whatever they want to talkabout to help increase all
of our own worldviews.
Today I would like tointroduce you to Ann Russo.
Ann is an advocate inthe mental health space,
particularly in queer issuesand religious traumas.
Ann is here to talk about the intersection

(00:43):
of those identities asa queer business owner
and all that Ann hasgoing on in their life.
So thank you so much, Ann.
Why don't you go aheadand tell the audience
more about you and your story.
- Hi Sarah. Thank you.It's always so funny
to talk about myself, you know,
it's like you're just out there doing this
stuff and I was like, oh wow.
Oh yeah, I'm doing this. So, yeah, so

(01:04):
basically I was raisedin a queer household
in the eighties and the nineties,
and I saw firsthand a lotof discrimination, a lot
of pain and harm being causedto the queer community.
And that came often from the hands
of religion, unfortunately.

(01:28):
And I had a passion for social justice
and I really had a passionfor the queer community
and social justice anyway.
And then as I got older, outof high school, I started to
interact a lot withconservative Christianity
and trying to understand why

(01:49):
Chris conservative Christianity was not
so pro LGBTQ.
And with that, I ended upgetting a master's in theology.
And then I ended up gettinga master's in social work.
And my primary work is aroundthe LGBTQ community in,

(02:10):
in various facets.
And over the past 10 years, I've
built a private practice
that has now become a larger corporation.
We have about 15 therapists
and we primarily work withmarginalized communities,
queer people, uh,non-monogamous relationships,
religious traumas, uh, POC,

(02:34):
and anyone that really has feltlike they didn't have a safe
space in the mental health community.
And most recently I'vebeen working on trainings
for therapists around these issues.
And I just signed a book deal with PESI
to write a book on religious trauma
for mental health providers.

(02:55):
So that's me in a nutshell.
- So you have a lot going on.
- Yes, yes. I hear that. Ihear that sometimes. Yeah.
- Um, and it sounds like, youknow, advocacy for you kind
of grew within you as you were growing up
and you know, how you then went to school

(03:15):
to further learning andfurther, um, you know,
help others in, in the therapy space.
So what did you kind
of learn when you werediving more into conservative
Christianity and figuring out where
the discrimination was, where there may
or may not have been acceptance?

(03:36):
What was that experience like for you?
- Well, Sarah, to be perfectly vulnerable,
it all started with a girl.
I met, um, a girl thatI was very much into,
and she was involved ina church that turned out

(03:58):
to be conservative Christianity.
And I was, had thatexperience when I was younger,
understanding like, Christiansare the people that hate us,
you know, as a queer family,and then me being queer myself.
So I always kinda steeredclear of religion.
But here was this veryinteresting and smart woman,

(04:19):
and I decided I would gocheck out this church.
Well, in the process ofseveral years, I really
got deeply invested in the church.
'cause I started to get more and more
and more curious, like, whyare they believing this?
How is the Bible making sense here?

(04:40):
But people aren't agreeing with it here,
or you're accepting me, but not the sin.
This is what you think it means to be gay,
but you're not, that's not accurate.
So I spent years really
invested in understanding the perspective
from the people ratherthan just reading about

(05:01):
what they thought or watchingnews about what they thought,
you know, as really being with them.
And through that experience,it gave me, believe it
or not, a little bit of empathy
and understanding ofwhere they're coming from,
which I think has given mekind of a unique perspective
because not being raised inthe church, I didn't have all

(05:23):
that, unfortunately, that baggage
around my sexual orientation.
Right. So I felt like Icould go into it a little
bit more objectively.
And also the understanding that there,
I didn't believe I was sinful.
I didn't believe that therewas something wrong with me.
Why do you, is kind of was the perspective
that I had going into that.

(05:44):
And I saw just theamount of pain and damage
and so many, uh, issuesaround mental health
and queer folks stemsback from religious shame.
- And so you didn't have that baggage, uh,
in religion growing up.
Instead you, you know, wereraised in a queer household.

(06:06):
So what was that like in termsof being in a queer household
and then eventually determiningthat you yourself are queer?
- Well, it could be assumedthat it would be easier,
and I think it is as far asthe family components go,

(06:27):
the immediate family components.
But you still have a society
that's giving you very different messages.
So while my household was a, to me,
a perfectly normal healthyhousehold with people
that loved each other and who cares
what your gender is, right?
Um, outside I saw thatthat wasn't accepted

(06:50):
because of the way thatour family had to live.
We had to live in secret.
We weren't allowed tosay that dad was gay.
We weren't allowed to.
Um, we, we presented likea heterosexual household
with a roommate throughmy elementary school

(07:10):
and junior high school years.
So already, you know, I'm,
I'm definitely receiving themessage that this is unsafe
and this is not what you wanna be.
So I absolutely tried to stuff that down
as hard as I possibly could.
- So then what made you likefeel like, okay, I can be safe

(07:33):
or just like I need to
actually be living the life of who I am?
- So we moved from, we wereliving in Arizona at the time
and we moved to Long Beach, California,
and Long Beach was, forlack of better terms, more

(07:55):
of a, a gay mecca.
There was a large populationof, um, LGBTQ folks,
and this is like the mid nineties.
And all of a sudden my dad wasout and his friends were out,
and we were allowed, my sister
and I, we were allowed totell our friends that dad

(08:16):
was gay shock to the system first
and foremost, because you've had,
I've had this other idea drilled into me
for 10 years, right?
On my formative years.
So now to be able to sayit, it was very stressful,
but we did start to say it
and people really didn'thave much of a reaction.

(08:40):
And then , when I, then I met people
that were dating same sexwhile I was in high school,
my friends, oh yeah, I'm,I'm bisexual, I'm bisexual.
I was, I'm dating this girl.And I was just stunned.
I couldn't believe that peoplewere just acknowledging,
you know, a different sexual orientation

(09:01):
besides heterosexuality.
But even with that, itstill took me maybe six
to seven months of beingaround queer folks for me
to say, I think I might be bisexual too.
You know, like just thatstepping stone for me.
So, um, that's how that happened.

(09:25):
And from there I just ran with it.
I started the LGBTQclub at the high school.
I just was such a social advocate from,
from that point forward.
- And since becoming a social advocate
and, you know, becoming moreaccepting of your identity,
have you had any momentswhere you kind of have

(09:48):
needed to kind of likerecede into those previous,
like formative years of like,we can't talk about this.
Like our identities do need to be hidden?
- Yes, yes.
I wish that was not the case,
but I think as a community
that has experienced harmin the greater society,

(10:12):
there's a hypervigilancethat comes along with that.
Whether or not we're evenconsciously aware of it, I think
that we scan environmentsfor safety, we look
for certain signs for safety.
So if there are things that I see
and it, it is terrible to say this,
I wish that it were not true.

(10:34):
But when I see thingslike people have a lot
of American flag paraphernalia
or they are in military fatigues,
or they have a cross aroundtheir neck, like there's the
assumption that this mightnot be a safe person,
and then I have to slowly learnthat they're a safe person.

(10:56):
It's just, there's certain,there's certain little triggers
of this as a potentiallynot a safe person due
to previous life experiences.
Now granted that's totallybias and judgmental
and not necessarily fair,
but it is just the waythat my brain has developed
to see these certain things.
You know, I don't letpeople live in that space.

(11:16):
Like, oh, you have a cross on,I'm never gonna talk to you.
I'm just a little morecautious. If that makes sense.
- Yeah, it makes sense in,in the scheme of, you know,
you needing to be safe yourself, wanting
to make sure you'reassociating, um, with folks
who are a safe place foryou and are accepting.
So as you know, the years have gone by

(11:39):
and we're no longer in the nineties.
Do you find that religious trauma
is even more prevalent now than it was?
Or is it slowly gettingbetter? Potentially?
- So that is a tough question

(12:00):
because religious traumaseeps into so many aspects
of people's lives, evenoutside of queerness.
I see people with religioustrauma constantly.
I think for, how would I say this?
I think more churchesspecific to queerness,

(12:22):
more churches are affirmingthan they were in the nineties.
Absolutely. That's absolutely true.
Do I think that religioustrauma as a whole is better?
I'm not sure. I'm not really sure.
You know, I just, doingthe work that I do, I, I,
it's very prevalent, butof course I'm also kind

(12:45):
of in this box of like religious trauma.
But seeing how the mentalhealth field doesn't have a lot
of people that specialize inreligious trauma would make me
think that it's still pretty prevalent
because folks don't haveplaces to process this
or they're not asaccessible to process this.

(13:07):
And we are a, a prettyreligious country whether
or not we acknowledge thator not on the surface.
- And so then how, as apractitioner, are you working
with folks with religious trauma?
Like what sort
of processing do folks need to do?

(13:29):
And like, how is it that you kind
of like ended up in this spacewhen it sounds like there
aren't a lot of practitionersfocusing in religious trauma?
- Well, I ended up in this space
because I just saw, itwas just so prevalent
and that experience I had in my late teens
and early twenties reallysolidified the level of what

(13:50):
that could look like andhow harmful it could be.
And how I work with folksis very much dependent upon
where they are in their journey,
because you're gonna havefolks that are very much
invested in faith or theirreligion or certain doctrine,
and it's not my job to tryto move them away from that,

(14:12):
but to help them maybeunderstand why they have those
viewpoints, perspectives,where does it come from?
What are their values? Whatare, what are their morals,
better understanding of themselves, right?
And then there's some folks
that are completely away from a religion
and feel like it has traumatized them
and they don't wanna participate,participate in a faith.

(14:33):
So it really is a very individual process.
My main goal for allclients is to meet them
where they're at, to respect
and honor what it isthat they want from their
religious experience orcontinued experience,
and then help them integrate and feel safe

(14:55):
and comfortable in themselves.
- And are you finding thatas you work through folks
with religious trauma, isit a lot of queer folks
or is it just kind of some queer folks?
Like where does that intersection
lie in the folks specificallythat you're working with?
- So I specialize in theintersection of queerness

(15:18):
and religion.
So for me it tends tobe the, that population,
right, that intersection.
However, I've workedwith various populations
and just even friends,family acquaintances,
there's religious trauma allover the place that has nothing
to do with queerness, butI specialize in queerness.

(15:41):
But I could absolutelywork with like someone
that's coming in, there's maybesome shame around sexuality
or, you know, losing theirvirginity or purity culture
or, uh, fear of hell.
I mean, there's just so many levels that
how religious trauma can showup in so many different ways.
- And so then how did you decide to kind

(16:02):
of grow your business goingfrom, you know, private practice
to it's not just you and the business?
- Yeah, well, I always saythat my practice is, uh,
an accident because I, it's
because I had myself doing the work

(16:22):
and then I was getting moreclients than I could take on.
So then I asked some friendsthat I had gone to grad school
with, if they were interested in coming on
and working with me
and, you know, followinglike this mission statement,
like knowing that they hadthe same mind, you know,
of social justice and, youknow, marginalized communities

(16:43):
and affordable accessible service.
So the first several people Ihired were people that I went
to grad school with, and then
they started referring some people
and we just start getting so many clients.
And then those clients were referring, and
before I knew it, we had 15 therapists
and we serve almost 400 active clients.

(17:03):
And we've served, probablyright now we're probably close
to 18 or 1900 people.
So it's just, I think it's grown
because there's not a lot of folks that
really have the specialty
and the understanding ofthese different populations.
- Well, and the fact that you're able to

(17:24):
provide additional services,able to say like, okay,
we see there is a high demand,we need to kind of meet that.
And, you know, we don'twant, you know, our,
our employees to be burnt out.
We don't want, you know, these people
to go without services.
Do you see yourself continuing to grow

(17:44):
as demand may increase?
- I don't think thatthe practice will grow
beyond the size that it is,
because at this moment Ithink it's really important.
I'm seeing the lack of education
with mental health providers as a whole.
So I feel like my energy atthis time is best utilized

(18:08):
to help train those providersso there can be more,
more of us out there.
And I think that, that,I see that that goal
as more, uh,
far reaching right than thisbuilding up this, this practice.
- Right. And you mentionedhow you are, you know,
focusing in this training.

(18:28):
So what are you doing to connect
with other practitionersto increase their training
around these specific topics?
- So I recently have beenan approved provider to do,
uh, continuing educationunits through the ASWB,
which is all, all mentalhealth providers are required

(18:50):
to have a certain amount ofunits every two years in order
to keep their license in good standing.
And I've been, and asan approved provider,
if they take classes with me,they'll be able to get some
of those credits towards that licensing.
So I think that's agood way to, to do that.
So I'm building up these, these trainings,

(19:10):
which will be availableonline and at your own pace.
And then writing the book, uh,with a contract through PESI
who is a tremendous providerof continuing education
and resources for all different types
of mental health providers.
So it's just starting toposition myself as someone who

(19:32):
knows this material andcan engage in this material
and just wanting to support other mental
health providers and the work.
- Yeah, it continuesyour advocacy. So. - Yes.
- So what was that first leap like for you
to become an approved provider?
Going from kind of the practitioner side

(19:52):
to, I wanna be the trainer
side.
- So as I'm trying tohire people, I'm seeing
that they don't have the skillset,
but they have the strong desire, right?
So it's, I really wanna come in here
and I really wanna workwith transgender folks

(20:15):
and I wanna work with people
that are a non-monogamous relationships.
I have zero experience, zero training.
Well, since we're a remotepractice, it's really hard
to just drop someone and okay, you don't,
you have this passion,but like, good luck.
Like you can't really do that, you know?
So the, what I was seeing more
and more is there is a lotof desire and a lot of heart
and a lot of passion aroundmarginalized communities,

(20:36):
but there aren't the resources.
So my goal is to provide those resources.
And who knows, maybe one daywe'll get into classrooms,
you know, and people canstart learning about these
things actually in school.
- And how far along haveyou come on the book deal?

(20:59):
- So I just signed the contract.
I have two completed chapters
working on my third, but the,
but it will not, the bookwon't see the light of day
for about a year and a half, just because
after I submit the manuscriptmanuscript, it takes a while
for them to do their thing

(21:20):
and get it out there to the public.
- And what was the processlike getting this book deal in
hand?
- Oh, Sarah, let,
so PESI actually reached out
to me about writing abook on these topics,

(21:42):
and I was really excited about it.
And I had already written almosta complete book about, um,
empowering female sexuality.
And I was like, great, Ihave this book almost done.
Let me send you a chapter.
So I sent the chapter onChristianity in female sexuality.

(22:02):
They come back to me and say, you know,
after reading thischapter, we just want you
to write a book about religious trauma.
So I was like, okay, I got it, I got it.
So they're like, let, like,great, this book's lovely,
but there's not enoughresources on religious trauma
for mental health providers.
And their audience reallyis mental health providers
and people that wouldbe interested in this.

(22:25):
So they feel really confidentthat this is the kind of work
that's needed right now
and the kind of informationthat needs to be out there.
So I started a, a new book and .
So that's, that's where I'mat. But I feel good about it.
I mean, it's, it is my, mylanguage, it, it is my love

(22:46):
and female sexuality
and sexuality in general,queerness, all of
that is still my love too.
So I'm trying to figure outa way to kind of umbrella all
that stuff that I'm here, I'mhere for all of it, you know?
- Right. So you've got this, this new book
that you're now writingand, and working on,
and it's going to take a littlewhile to write and publish.

(23:08):
How has like the therapyspace changed over time
that, like, by the time youget your book published,
will there be so much moregoing on that it's like, okay,
we're gonna need a volume two?
- Well, between you and me
and everyone listening, what my plan is is

(23:31):
to get this book out
and then I really wanna getthis other book published,
and then if they come to me
and say, we need to do some revisions
or do a revised edition of this book,
or, I'm, I'm, I'm totally open for it,
but I really wanna get thatother book published as well,
because I think that it'sreally important to understand

(23:52):
for women to feel sexually powerful
and whatever that means for them.
And that book reallycreates a path to that
and an understanding of why we are
where we are starting all the way back
from religious doctrine.
So that has that, I have to publish

(24:12):
that one next now we'llsee where we go from
there.
- And where kind of are youtaking the inspiration,
the knowledge, like everythingyou're putting into this book
and even the book that you've already
written and want to publish?
Like, how much are you ableto just kind of like, sit down
and write, or how much doyou kind of have to like go

(24:34):
and be like, let me refreshmyself on something I learned
or an experience I had?
- So I think both of those things,
because since I'm writingthis book primarily for
mental health providerswho are gonna be working
with clients, it's very important for me
to have evidence-based work.

(24:55):
So there is a great deal of research
and kind of seeing whatother people have done
around religious trauma,around shame, around
PTSD, all these thingsthat show up in, you know,
religious trauma.
And then also to get a general sense

(25:17):
of the work that's alreadybeen done around it,
I think is very important too.
And really piggybackingoff of those folks,
but also to acknowledge themand the work that they've done.
Right. And then I pull alot from my own experiences
with my clients, or evenconversations that I've had
with people and experiencesI've had within myself in

(25:41):
relation to religious trauma.
So I don't, it's not a difficult topic
for me to write on
because I feel like this iswhat I've been studying my whole
life, you know, like I, it,
it really has been very long time.
So it's not hard to do that.
I just need to make sure thatit's cohesive for the reader.

(26:04):
So that would be the part
that I think it takesa little bit more time.
I can write all day long
and then only I understandwhat I'm saying.
Right. . So, so it's thatpiece, it's making it concise
and clear and, and understandingthat this is something
that I've looked atfor, you know, 30 years.
This is not something

(26:25):
that someone else haslooked at for 30 years.
So how do I need to speakto them in order for them
to follow my train of thought, right.
And work with their clients.
- Right, because as, asyou mentioned, you know,
in your hiring, you werefinding folks who didn't have
that background, didn'thave that experience,
so this would be anothertool for them to then be able
to work with these folks.

(26:47):
- Absolutely. And, and theother challenge too is we're
looking at religious trauma.
So I'm careful to acknowledge
that this is not just like a project
that's focused on Christianity.
So I'm looking at, you know,
how religious traumacan show up, uh, with,
with many different religions,

(27:07):
but it shows up very similarly
and how we as human beingsrespond to that trauma.
- And so then when you got yourmaster's, was this.
Also like a high focus and a thesis,
or were you focusing onsomething else at those times?
- So my focus was the intersection
of queerness and Christianity.

(27:30):
So everything that I was writing about
and was about how queerpeople have been impacted
by Christianity and it, so there was a lot
of mental health components there,
but there were other components as well.
And I didn't necessarily talk about other
religions in my work.
I had to study a lotof different religions.

(27:52):
And in my bachelor's degree I focused on
Southeast Asian religions.
So like I have a pretty good mix
of different religious beliefs
and spiritual beliefs in my mind.
But I, what I need todo is pull that thread.
How does religious trauma show up despite
the particular faith groupthat someone might belong to?

(28:13):
- And so, because youknow, you started more
with a focus in Christianitywith its intersection,
with queerness, but nowin this book you are
connecting to other religions.
But when you look atthe states as a whole,
like different religions are more popular,
is your practiceprimarily in one location?

(28:35):
Um, you know, you mentionedthat you are virtual.
So how does that kind of practice base
reflect into how much your training needs
to be relating to different religions?
- So the train, the book.Okay. Two different pieces.

(28:56):
So the training partthat I'm, that I'm doing
for the CEUs is specifically
Christianity and queerness.
And that goes very deep into Christianity.
Like I had to make two separate trainings,

(29:17):
one's just about Bible stuff, then,
but the book is, can be used
for anyone who's experiencedreligious trauma in any
religion, because we'relooking more at the
impact of the trauma.
So it, it will, it'shelpful for the practitioner

(29:39):
to have some understandingof culture and religion,
but it wouldn't necessarily be,
they don't need a master's in theology.
Like they can look at something
and go, ah, this could be coming out
of a person's religious upbringing.
Let me understand that.
And just to know that whenyou're doing your assessments
and you're working with,with clients to ask questions

(30:02):
around upbringing and religiosity,
because there might be a lotthat's, uh, interplaying with
what they're experiencing nowthat you may not even think
to ask or question.
So it's just creating awareness
and then dealing with the,the, the impact of, um,

(30:23):
high control religion really is
what we're kind of looking at here.
- That makes sense. And youhad this experience, you know,
as a late teen in your twenties, kind
of doing this deep dive into Christianity.
Where has your kind of like religious
experiences taken you?

(30:45):
- Oh my goodness. They'vetaken me all over the place
because I, I, I really spent,
I would say my entire twenties
and part of my thirtieslooking for answers.
And so I read a lot.
I traveled a lot,

(31:07):
and finally I, I got an answerthat I feel very good about.
I have no idea. And that felt fine
because I think what I've realized is
the more certain somebody is, the more

(31:28):
closed they are to something else.
And I don't think that, I don't think
that's just not me, you know?
So I wanna be open to all kindsof possibilities and ideas,
and I don't wanna be someonewho has a belief system
that creates a situation
where you can't lookat other belief systems

(31:48):
or other, other ideas or concepts.
Right. So I've, I went
to the Vatican, I've been to, uh,
Angkor Wat in Cambodia with the monks.
Like I've really,
and I like talking topeople about their faith
and their religion respectfully and, and,
and just learning from,

(32:10):
from the actual practitioners of a faith.
- And in learning fromactual practitioners.
Did you ever get met with resistance?
- Not in the traditionalsense of, I don't want,
like do you mean like, I don'twanna talk to you about this,
or something's wrong with you?

(32:30):
No, actually, and I haveput myself in some very
unique circumstances.
Uh, you may remember thatmaybe about 10 years ago,
there was a very popular church
for unfortunately the wrong reasons.
Westboro Baptist Church. Yeah.
There they would go and protest funerals

(32:53):
and just do terrible, veryharmful things to others.
Well, I'm, I've, they came,uh, to the area where I lived
and I just went right out there to talk.
And I ended up talking toone of 'em for like two hours
because I'm like, well, what do you like?
And I don't come, Idon't have any judgment.
Like, I'm not there to fight you.
I'm there to hear, well,tell me about this.

(33:15):
Where does this come from?How do you feel about this?
You know, I'm very open toreceiving whatever it is.
So I haven't actually had any resistance.
And I think that if therewas a place I'd have it,
it would be with theWestboro Baptist Church.
- I mean, that's, that'sa good thing to, to hear.
And even just you going intoit, like without judgment,

(33:36):
you're here to learn, you'rehere to gain knowledge.
Like you're not going in with trying
to like change somebody's mind.
- No, and I'm not gonnachange someone's mind
in that circumstance.
So the only thing that I cando is, is gain knowledge,
gain empathy, and then howdo I wanna be in the world?
Right? The way we changepeople, truly, I mean,

(33:58):
I've learned this lesson over
and over again as a queer person.
I'm not changing anybody bysaying, your bible is wrong,
or your belief system's wrong,and why don't you do this?
And you're evil? Like, that doesn't work.
What works is me showing up authentically
and people going, oh, so wait,
a queer person isn't justa drug addict on the street

(34:19):
who wants to sleep witheverybody who hates God.
Like, seriously, like,
because that's what a lot of people think.
So like, if I, if I show up as myself
and I'm not showing up asthis demonized version of
what it means to be a queerperson, it gives pause.
It may not stop their belief system,

(34:39):
but it definitely gives them
a little something to think about.
And that is how I believethe change takes place
when you're dealing withstrong forces of, uh,
high control groups
and, um, really staunchdogmatic viewpoints.
- Right. And it's justkind of another example

(35:00):
of your advocacy, even outsideof this mental health space
to figuring out how can you learn more?
How can you listen more?
So you have a couple differentthings going on in mental
health with advocacy.
How, if at all, areyou an advocate outside
of mental health, like directly through

(35:23):
between like the book and thetrainings and your practice?
- I
like to think just theway I exist in the world.
Everything. I feel likeeverything that I do
has that spin on it.
You know, like by no mean,I mean I mess up constantly,

(35:46):
but I, I do try to understand people.
I do have a lot ofempathy for differences.
And I, and I am, I'malways wanting to learn
and I don't ever wantto be called an expert.
And I think that that's kind of funny
'cause people say, oh, oh,you're, you're an expert in this.

(36:06):
And I'll say no, 'cause Idon't believe anyone can
be an expert in anything.
I believe you can specialize in something
and have a lot ofknowledge about something,
but I feel like calling yourself an expert
doesn't leave room for growth.
And that just doesn't work for me.
- I think it's an important,you know, viewpoint to have,

(36:29):
um, realizing you canalways continue to grow
and you know what youcan be knowledgeable in.
And you've mentioned alot about empathy, so how
have you maybe like,strengthened your empathy
or like, come to learn thatempathy is so important?

(36:50):
- I wanna give this caveatbefore I answer this question
because some folks might findit to be, uh, a little odd.
Empathy does not excuse badbehavior and harmful behavior
and empathy does not mean no boundaries.

(37:10):
Uh, empathy does meanbeing safe in yourself
and valuing yourself as well.
And I think that real empa, real empathy
adheres to all of that.
With that said, empathyallows me to look at
people in this world

(37:32):
and have an understanding
of why they may be the way that they are.
And not to carry hate within myself
for why someone might do what they do.
You know, so I can look at,
I'm just gonna put itout there, the election.
I can look at someone like,like Donald Trump character,

(37:56):
and while he's not my favorite,I can look at that person
and go, this is a person that's hurting.
This is what his childhood was like.
He needs all this fame, allthis positive reinforcement.
This man is probably very empty
and I have a lot of empathy for
what he must actually be feeling inside.

(38:16):
I don't wanna spend time with him.
I didn't want him to be the president.
I'm not a fan of his policies,
but I don't hate the
the spirit under all thebullshit, I guess you could say.
- Yeah. You're looking at someone

(38:38):
beyond just their external.
Um, you're realizing kindof like there's a reason
for people's actions.
Like even just talkingabout religious trauma, like
that's not necessarilysomething that people tend
to like put on their face,
but that doesn't meanit's not affecting them.

(38:59):
- Totally. And I like whatyou said, it's the reason
that something happened.
It's not the excuse.
And I think that that's the caveat,
and that's why I wanna make it clear.
It doesn't mean that youdon't fight against a policy
or something that you don't believe in.
It doesn't mean that youdon't fight social justice.
It doesn't mean that you don't,
you know, speak truth to power.
It doesn't mean any of those things.

(39:21):
It just means that maybeyou're a little softer in your
heart about the human experience.
- Yeah. I mean, being softer at heart
and the human experience isso different for everyone.
Um, and I think, you know, youcan kind of look back to some
of the things you've sharedabout in your growing up
and you know, how you had to be perceived

(39:44):
and how that changed.
Um, I think it's important torealize where, you know, you,
you come from yourself to thenbe connecting with others.
- Absolutely. And you know, and I, and I,
and as I grow older
and I talk to some of myfriends that I've had, you know,

(40:05):
since I was a teenager, I have one friend
and I gotta just likegive a shout out to her
because she's like, you know, I've been
so judgmental in my life about people
and the older I get theeasier I see that it is,
that it can be to, you know,go one way or the other
or change like it.
It's like, I think there'sthis, this openness

(40:26):
to the human experience is more cause
and effect than good or bad.
You know, it's likewhat kind of, what kind
of impact do you wanna have on the world?
And you're not always gonnado it perfectly, right?
But just trying to look at like,
who do I wanna be in this world?

(40:48):
How do I wanna treat people in this world?
And then go, go from there.
- Yeah. Yeah. I think those are all some
really good points in inner reflection
and you know, how you'reputting yourself out there.
Um, I'm not sure that I haveany more specific questions
for you, so I kind of wannaopen the floor for you to kind

(41:09):
of share anything elseyou wanna talk about
and you want the listeners to hear.
- I would just like the listenersto know that AMR therapy,
the practice that I have is open to them.
We serve many of states
and we, the agency is created

(41:32):
for affordable care.
So we're all, we're online,we were online before covid.
I created that way intentionally
so I wouldn't have the overhead of a brick
and mortar so I could actuallylower the rates for clients.
So we're sl we're sliding scale
and we do our best to,
to match anyone's budget while ensuring
that our therapists can also eat.

(41:53):
And we're all reallydedicated to social justice
and different intersections.
And if you've had a badexperience with therapy
or didn't feel like you'rebeing heard, I'm hoping that,
you know, we've turned that around
and don't be, you know,don't be shy to reach out
and, um, you know, let'sjust keep our head up

(42:14):
and continue to fight for, for people
and have compassion and,
and have empathy without being dismissive
of ourselves and our needs.
- Yes. I mean, I think thoselast pieces are so good
for people to hear and, youknow, to expand on, you know,
the practice you've got going,you know, we've heard a lot

(42:37):
of great things about youradvocacy, what you're focusing,
and I think it's good to, toacknowledge that, you know,
those services are available.
- Yes. Absolutely.
And people can feel freeto reach out to me as well.
I love to hear from the community,
I love to hear from people.
I, it they're part ofmy learning journey too.

(42:59):
You know, we are all in this together
and I really, really firmly believe that.
So we're all learning from each other
- 100%.
And I'll make sure to, you know, get all
of your good contactinformation in the description
for folks to be able to reach out.
And I'll mention that in the outro.
But before we get there, I do ask all
of my guests a random question.

(43:19):
So my question for you todayis, what is the best way
to waste time?
- Time is never really wasted
because even if you thinkyou're wasting it, you're not,
because you're probably doingsome kind of self-care, right?
That society told us like is a waste.

(43:41):
Um,
spending time withfriends watching movies.
Okay, Abbott Elementary,that's my thing right now.
I'm wasting time watchingAbbott Elementary at
night 'cause that show is hilarious. .

(44:11):
- All right, that bringsthis episode to a close.
So of course if you wouldlike to connect with Ann
and her practice, her practice's
website will be in the description.
That is AMRTherapy.com.
But that direct linkwill be there if you want
to go check them out.
And of course, if youwould like to connect
with the podcast, our websiteis in the description as well.
That brings you to all ofour past episodes, resources,

(44:32):
good information, our social media.
We are in Instagram,Facebook, and LinkedIn.
If you'd like to go follow those pages.
And of course my email isin the description as well.
That is always the best way to reach out
to me if you're interested in connecting.
And there is also alink in the description
to support the podcast monetarily, if
that is something you are interested in.
So thank you so much, Ann,for spending time with me today

(44:54):
and to my listenersfor taking the time out
of your day to hear our new story.
Until next time, bye. - Bye.