July 16, 2024 • 50 mins
When JD Mass’s parents had children, they wanted to raise their kids surrounded by Black culture and intentionally be anti-racist. JD grew up with predominantly Black friends and wanted to understand the roots of racism that he saw. From working with Nelly, to finding an accepting community in Israel, JD shares about many life experiences in this episode including more on his book “Race for What?” and his podcast “Same Difference.”
Connect with JD:
https://www.instagram.com/raceforwhat/
https://www.tiktok.com/@drjdmass
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Artwork: instagram.com/vashaundesigns
Music/Editing: youtube.com/colemanrowlett
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:15):
- Hello and welcome to Introducing Me.
I'm your host, Sarah. Istarted this podcast to get
to know other people and lifestyles while
discovering more about myself.
Each episode, I'll givea new guest a chance
to discuss their background,culture, interests,
or whatever they want to talkabout to help increase all
of our own worldviews.
Today, I would like tointroduce you to JD Mass.
(00:35):
He has been on a lifelongjourney to understand the roots
of racism and work towardsa more equitable world.
He is a white man who has beensurrounded by Black culture.
So he's here to talk about hisupbringing, his life today,
and all of the thingshe is, you know, doing
for a more equitable world.
So I'm excited to haveJD here this evening.
(00:58):
So thank you so much, JD.
Why don't you go ahead and tellthe audience more about you.
- Well, thank you, Sarah.I appreciate you, uh,
inviting me onto your platform and, um,
and you know, what yourplatform is all about
because I do enjoy the storytellingside of things as well.
(01:18):
Um, so my name is JD Mass.
I was born in the seventies,um, uh, the oldest
of two siblings who were raised by parents
that intentionally wantedwhite parents, uh, um,
who intentionally wanted to raise us in
and around Black culture.
(01:39):
And, uh, along the way teach us not
to be racist, which intention,that takes intentions
as well, because you, you know,we're inherently in a system
that is, is, uh, racist,
especially the furtherback we get, um, in time.
And so growing up, uh,
(02:04):
you can see on the cover of the book,
but your audience can't see.
But this was my prompicture and, uh, of me
and my closest friends,
and I'm the only, uh, person
of less melanated skinon the, on the picture.
So, um, all of my friends growing up
when I was born in Philly, um, in an area
(02:27):
that they chose because of its diversity,
and then they were born and raised in St.
Louis and moved back to St.
Louis when I was fouryears old, next door to
who became my best friends, their family.
It was grandmother, you know, aunts
and uncles living in the house, mom
and the sons that I was raised around.
(02:49):
And, uh, you know, so fromthe time I was four years old,
I've had my best friends
and their family be my second family,
or an extension of my family.
Um, and so through thattime, having in St.
Louis where it's really segregatedother than the part part
that I grew up in, which iscalled University City, um,
(03:13):
uh, the, the things I
started to notice were that Iwas raised differently, right?
My, when I was in the third grade,
and we learned aboutDr. Martin Luther King
and had to write a little essay,
I didn't quite understandwhy he was famous,
because to me it just made sense.
(03:33):
But learning about himmade me open my eyes
that maybe I was taughtdifferently than other folks.
And as I started to recognizeracism from cops stopping me
and my friends when we werewalking from going to the mall
and being treated differentlywhen I was with them
or treated differently, thenthey were treated, um, when I,
(03:54):
you know, I was alone,uh, it just started to
increase my awarenessthat racism was existing.
Um, discrimination wasexisting, and I wanted to learn
and understand why.
It just, it didn't make sense to me.
So why has been sort of the leading, uh,
(04:15):
part of my journey in, infinding out my purpose work.
I wanted to just get a graspon what made us way back when,
kind of create thesetypes of systems and, um,
and better understand whypeople had these prejudices,
had these discrimination, uh, techniques
(04:36):
and things of that nature. So.
- Yeah.
So your parents were veryintentional, you know, putting you
in areas to surroundyourselves with Black culture
to make sure you and yoursiblings wouldn't be racist.
So what, you know, kind of didyou do as you were growing up
to learn more, to figure out, like
(04:58):
what were other people were thinking?
Like how, you know, whatsort of learning did you do?
What sort of things did you learn that
wasn't your way of thinking?
- Right. So one of the things, um, that
growing up the way I didallowed me to learn was
(05:19):
through experiencing diff,you know, being around
and welcomed into thehomes of Black folks.
So, you know, the, when people try
to deny their racism, Idon't, I'm not racist.
I have my Black friends,I have my, you know,
colleagues at work that I get along with.
We treat each other this way.
(05:40):
Most of what they don't understand is
that they're in their culturewith somebody else sort
of visiting that space.
You know, I ask 'em, so when you meet
with your Black friends, doyou go to their neighborhoods
or do they come to yours?
Are they meeting you atWhole Foods and Starbucks,
or are they meeting, are yougoing into their neighborhoods
(06:00):
and parks and things of that nature?
And so one of the thingsI was able to hear
is how Black folks weretreated from their perspective,
how they thought of whiteculture from their perspective,
and then go home and haveconversations with my father
and my mother about thesesystems that were in place.
(06:23):
My mother is a doctor.
She wasn't necessarily intothe anti-racism as much
as she was into helping people.
And this medical systemthat was being set up, uh,
in the HMO time waslike when I was a child,
she was completely againstthis whole way of insurance
and hospitals forming these mergers
(06:45):
and creating a, a incentivenot to treat people well,
but to medicate them and, and,
and, you know, keep them, uh,
from really gettingaccess to the best care.
Because if they're not sick,
then we don't make as much money.
But also, if you'regetting tests done, then
(07:07):
that's gonna cost the, thebusiness, which we call hospitals
or, you know, insurance companies,
and then you're notgonna get paid as much.
And so that whole idea,she was just fighting that,
and I got to experience andwatch her stand her ground
and try to maintain a private practice
(07:27):
where she really took the timeto get to know the patients.
Right. On the flip side,my father was an attorney,
or is an attorney, and hewould teach me about from the
criminal justice systemto the education system.
He was very well read in Cornell West or,
or, um, I, Michael Eric Dyson,
(07:48):
or I think it's Michael Eric, um, uh,
but, uh, in various authors and, and
and whatnot that wouldteach about the way systems
of oppression were set up.
So I got to learn about theconditions people grew in,
and then go and experiencehow they internalized it
and reflected it back on us.
(08:10):
- And so then were you everkind of looked at differently
because you were likegoing into Black culture,
that there was kind of a, like,
what is this white guy doing here?
- So, yes. You know, in thebeginning, um, I would go
with my friends playing,they would play basketball
(08:30):
and I would just be hanging out with them.
And we would go into inner city parks,
into inner city rec centers,
and I would be the onlywhite person there.
And I remember when, um, youmay be too young to know about,
uh, midnight basketball,
but this was an initiativeback in the Clinton presidency
where they tried to give,uh, this alternative, um,
(08:54):
to being out in the streets this midnight,
and it literally startedat midnight basketball
league, right?
And they would have'em all over the place.
Well, literally, I would bethe only white person there
nine times outta 10.
Um, and so yeah, we would get stares,
and then somebody from eachcommunity would often come
(09:17):
and say, okay, you keep showing up.
Let me introduce myself.
Some others would, you know,oh, there goes the police,
or, you know, make fun of me or whatnot.
And as long as I took it
and accepted it as just being fun, uh, it,
it started to break the ice.
But the consistency ofme showing up, the fact
(09:37):
that my friends stood up for me
and vouched for me, often helped as well.
On the flip side, I would play tennis.
I would be around white folks doing that.
I would go to mygrandparents' country clubs.
I would go in
and experience other thingsin, in my synagogue or whatnot,
and I would get white.
(09:57):
I would get the opportunityto develop relationships
with white children my age.
And a lot of the times whenthey would find out that
majority of my friends are Black,
they would get sick whenit was time to hang out ,
and we would no longerhave this relationship
that was starting to build.
(10:18):
Right. And so I, I watched
and noticed how uncomfortable they were,
or even to the point of, ofbeing afraid that to even come
around and hang out withme at that level. So.
- Definitely an interesting path
to be taking as a young kid.
So what was schooling like for you?
(10:40):
Like, was your schooldistrict also very segregated?
- So in University City,
the population at the time Igrew up was literally about 50
50 with a very small Asian population.
So half the rest of it washalf and half white and Black.
(11:00):
However, the school district was 85%,
um, Black.
And so a lot
of the white parents weresending their children
to private schools or religious schools.
Um, the, uh, as you got even older, right?
So there were two, um,two elementary schools
(11:24):
that had a predominantly white,
or at least a heavilywhite, um, uh, population.
As you got into middleschool, it was up in the 90%.
And at high school it was around93% Black African American.
So I was definitely in the minority.
And I even watched inthere, there's a book,
(11:44):
something about sitting in the cafeteria.
Um, but, uh, that's how it would be most
of the white students would sitat those two or three tables
and, and everybody else wouldsit at the other tables,
and I would be one ofthe few white students
that were sitting amongstthe Black folks in
(12:05):
the, in the cafeteria.
But I just, I had a levelof acceptance of them.
I didn't necessarily,like, I definitely speak
with the slang, um, in comfort growing up,
but I didn't necessarilytry to portray myself
as not being white.
I just accepted who they wereand they accepted who I was.
(12:26):
And I, I felt very welcome.
- Right. That's definitelyimportant to acknowledge kind of
where you were at and howlike that acceptance worked.
Then what was it likepost high school for you?
A lot of people, youknow, sometimes they'll go
past high school to likecompletely different situations
(12:48):
and cultures, or they kind of like. - Right.
- Do the same sort of thingthey've been used to.
- Right. So Sarah, I had
what I call three freshmanyears of college. .
I was not the, uh, moststudious person in, in, uh, in,
you know, uh, elementarythrough high school.
(13:10):
But I did wanna start being studious
when I became in college.
And I went to Ohio State University,
which I do not recommend ifyou're not a good student
and wanting to become a good student
to start at the largest school in America.
Right. Um, and I endedup in the athletic dorm,
but what I did notice was I was
(13:31):
around a lot more white students
and I got to developrelationships with them.
And some of them grew up in,in kind of racist households,
they would use the N word quite a bit.
And yet we still foundquite a bit to share in an,
in an experience that allowed us
to develop good relationships.
(13:52):
Um, and over that timeI even witnessed them
feeling uncomfortablewith how they grew up
or how their friends wouldspeak to them when I was around.
Right. And you could see
and feel the change ofenergy happening over time
because I wasn't trying toforce or fight them, right.
(14:12):
I was much more interestedin fighting the system,
but not individual people,
because I understood howwe grew up differently.
And I wa I wasn't gonnaget along with a lot
of the people in my space,
but they also got to see meinteract with like athletes.
The Ohio State football teamhad quite a few athletes in the
(14:32):
dorm, and they took a liking to me.
And so they got to seeme interact with them,
and it was a, it was really a great social
setting in that standpoint.
And I, like you said, I, I got to see how
students going into college,you're really trying
to figure out who am Igonna be as an adult?
(14:53):
So some of us take our childhood with us
and continue, others say,okay, that was my childhood.
This is going to be different.
I'm going to start, you know,becoming this as an adult,
and that's that age when youare, you know, learning what
that means for yourself.
So I could see peoplegoing through changes.
(15:15):
I could see others thatwere kind of, you know, more
grounded in who they were.
And so, yeah, it was a good experience.
So that was my first freshman year,
but my grades were such,
my mother did not want me coming back.
And, uh, so I had to learnhow to get, you know, better
(15:36):
at being a student.
- So what were the othertwo freshman years then?
- So, uh, my second freshman year, I,
I got into some troublewhen I came back, um, uh,
from, um, college, uh, that summer
my friends were starting to get access
(15:58):
to guns.
Um, and there were somerivalries that were developing
that we weren't necessarilytrying to be a part of,
but felt like we had to,um, uh, protect ourselves.
And, um, and so at onepoint there was an incident
with a friend's brother wherethe father of the person
(16:21):
of the kid that he got intoit with came and got involved,
and we had to get involvedand police were called,
and my parents weren't used to that,
and they put me on punishment.
And so I ended up thatnext freshman year, sort
of in a night school at what's Webster
University here in St.
(16:41):
Louis. And that taught me, I was at home.
If I wasn't at work orat school, I was at home
and I was getting mystudy skills together.
And, uh, I eventuallyended up going to St.
Louis University for the next four years.
Um, and, uh, and going through
and figuring out that Iwanted to be in business
(17:04):
and be entrepreneurial, andI took, uh, finance and,
and so, um, that was where I ended up
for the next four years.
So that was my third freshman year.
- And so then, you know, youdecided entrepreneurship,
doing finance, but you alsoat the same time, you know,
(17:26):
are passionate about an equitable world.
So like, how do those two things mix?
- So when I'm in high school, um, the
malls weren't technologically as advanced
as they were today.
And so we could go in, I could,
(17:47):
the return policy workeda lot better for me than
for my friends, right?
And I would see this in action.
I would see friendsget who wear a size 13,
I'm five foot three, somy shoe size is nine.
And you know, I gotfriends that are six five,
and they would come out intothe parking lot, hand me shoes
(18:08):
that they were not able to return.
And I would go back into the mall
and I would return them to the same person
that denied them five minutes ago
and get a different pair of shoes.
And I saw this work over
and over again to where I tookback shoes from size seven
to 13, almost to thesame stores regularly,
(18:28):
and got no problems.
Uh, and it was just,
it was very eyeopening and amazing to me.
And it sort of set meon this path of, okay,
probably can't fight thesystem from the outside.
What if I learn thesystem from the inside?
And in studying finance,
I learned about the banking industry,
and I really wanted to go intothe banking industry, kind
(18:51):
of work my way up to the top
and see where I could make aninfluential change either by,
you know, offering loans
and teaching people how to get loans
for entrepreneurial projectsor whatever that was.
Well, um, so my des my design was, my,
my mission was kind of workmy way through the inside.
(19:12):
I, I was hotheaded, so I wasn'tgonna be a great protester
and try and argue pointswithout getting angry
and, and whatnot.
So I thought if I, if I wentinto the, uh, system that way.
And then, I don't know if you'veseen the cover of the book,
but kneeling next to me is Nelly, um, who,
(19:32):
whose career started to take off right
around the time when I wasin, uh, going into banking
and had just finished college.
And so when his careertook off, he asked me
to come help him start upsome entrepreneurial projects.
Eventually his career tookoff so fast that his, um,
(19:52):
managers approached me
and asked me could Ihelp them with, you know,
setting up their company.
And I became his businessmanager as a partner
of their management company.
And so I started to realize,oh, I can make any phone call
and start off and get towhoever I wanted to talk to just
by saying, this isNelly's business manager,
(20:15):
JD, right?
And so I thought, okay,I can work my way up,
develop relationships, and
because of Nelly, I willeventually get my chance
to make an impact the way I want it to.
Well, through difference in cultures and,
and your listeners can, can get the book
(20:37):
and learn from, uh, um, uh,
chapter five about my time with him.
I recognized that therewas a difference in
how I would do business, howthey would do business in,
um, inside his camp.
And it was a struggle at times.
And I made my mistakes not,you know, earning the trust
(21:00):
that I knew, you know, better.
And they made, and Nellycertainly had different ways
of wanting to manage hisbusinesses than I did.
And eventually in 2004, we kindof stopped working together.
Um, but I had met through his uncle
a community in Israel of expatriate, uh,
(21:22):
African Americans that left in the sixties
to form another way of living.
And it was about peace.
It was about vegan diet, and,
and it was about, uh, so health and,
and all of these things kindof getting back to living a, a,
a way of caring and sharing forone another, but also caring
and sharing for the planet and being one
(21:45):
and connected with the planet.
And when I saw this community, the level
of peace and,
and care for one another,the level of humanity
that I experienced in myfirst trip there, uh, really
opened up my eyes.
My grandmother went to Israel with me,
(22:05):
and she took some time tocome see this community,
and we were walking through the community
and I had to use the restroom.
And the prince that wastaking us through said, Hey,
just go in any door.
And I was like, yeah,that's not gonna happen.
These were like single story apartment
looking like structures.
I was like, Hey, I'm notwalking through any door.
(22:25):
That's not gonna happen. So I keep going
and he goes, you know, you saidyou had to use the restroom,
go up there and, and walkin and use the restroom.
And so I go up and Iwent to knock on the door
and he said, I didn't say, knock,
we haven't locked our doors in 40 years.
Open the door and peek your head in
and tell 'em you wanna go to the restroom.
They'll let you knowwhere to go. And so I did.
(22:48):
I go in, I open thedoor real quietly, kind
of peek my head in and he, they go, Hey,
baby, what do you need?
Some water, some food, youneed to use the restroom.
I'm like, I need to use the restroom.
I'm very timid at this point.
And I come out, they give mesome water, we keep walking,
and then a 2-year-old comesrunning around the corner.
(23:10):
Uh, we are the only adultsin sight, and my grandmother
and I are just like, what is going on?
And the prince says, oh,are you going to the park?
And we keep going andhe says, don't worry,
there's more eyes on thekid than you realize.
But also they are raised to realize
that the entire villageis their home, not just
inside their apartment.
(23:31):
Right. And that was eye-opening,still brings me, um,
goosebumps to speak about it,
and I wanted to be a part of that.
And so to get involvedin learning about that,
my sister ended up moving to Israel, um,
met her husband there,they have three children.
But to see that at thelevel of, in which I saw
(23:54):
and wanting to, you know, helpspread that type of energy,
um, I had to learn a lot more about
how much intentions go intobuilding something different.
And that kind of processput me through a change.
- Yeah, I mean, it's kind
of a completely different way of life.
(24:15):
It sounds like lots ofdifferent experiences, you know,
to see, you know, justsort of an open community
that, you know, is surroundedby peace and acceptance.
- Yeah. - So then, sinceexperiencing those moments, um,
what have you gotten up to?
(24:38):
- So I worked with them, uh,
I think financial strugglesin Los Angeles at this time.
I was living in Los Angeles.
I moved out there in 2003when I was with Nelly.
Um, and so I worked with themin the vegan food company
and Positive Music Works, uh, company.
And, you know, we put on, uh,different health fairs and,
(25:03):
and distributed food to markets.
And so I got to still bemy entrepreneurial self,
but I had to really learn adifferent way of doing it.
About 2011
or 2010, I met my son's mother.
Um, my son was six yearsold when I met his mom.
(25:24):
Um, and, uh, and I was, and
because of financial reasons, the,
the community in LosAngeles was struggling
to stay, stay there.
So she and I ended upmoving in with each other
and she was this moremilitant type, uh, you know,
aggressive person that that really had to,
(25:47):
that felt passionate about, you know,
wanting some systemic change.
And she said to me, well,at one point it is great
that you love us the way you do,
and it is great thatyou know what, you know,
but if you don't go over
and help your people change,
then you're not doing us any good.
(26:07):
And I didn't really wanna hear that.
And , I didn't, you know,I wasn't excited about
that I idea, and Ididn't really know where
to go and how to connect.
But at the same time, I was going
through a doctorate programin organizational psychology,
which was teaching me aboutthe intentions of leadership
(26:28):
and how something is started
and the, you know, the energyused to start something
and how that creates a cultureand develops into a culture.
And I was able to applythat to my initial search
for why did racism exist.
And so as I'm startingto apply these things
and learning the difference,
(26:49):
and I've learned thedifferences in the two cultures,
and I'm starting to kind of try
and put all this together,
Donald Trump ends upwinning the presidency.
And I hear about this communityout in LA called White
People for Black Lives.
I went, oh, I'm one of those,
let me figure out howto get a part of that.
(27:10):
And so I heard about them.
They were, you know,supporting Black Lives Matter.
Um, and I go to startto go to their meetings.
I want to go to every singlemeeting I can be, be a part of
and, um, and see how I can be involved.
And here's my chance todo exactly what she said
(27:31):
and to put me on the pathof, okay, now I can go meet
with people who also want change.
And what I realized ismany of them wanted change,
yet they had no experiencewith Black community.
And they, most of them justwere having aha moments,
whether it was Michael Brown,you know, Trayvon Martin, um,
(27:57):
uh, some different, youknow, murders by the police
or somebody at theirwork made them realize
that they didn't have thesame concerns as, you know,
their white colleagues did.
All of these differentthings were happening
where people were having these aha moments
and getting involved in this.
(28:17):
And it was, there was stilla lack of understanding of,
you know, what the otherside wants and needs.
And we are trying to help them.
And so I often, I wouldstruggle to relate.
I would feel like I'm a doctorate talking
to a fifth grader, right?
And, and so I, I was just missing them.
And I don't say that to put anybody down.
(28:39):
I say that based on experience.
I struggled and eventually I wanted to,
to write my thoughts out.
And that's what led meto writing the book.
Um, what really spur I wastrying, I was not a good writer.
My father was my editorthroughout my dissertation work.
Um, you know,
(29:00):
and he, when I would tellhim I wanna write a book,
he would be like, oh, I'm gonna have
to edit this whole thing .
So, um, he ended up, you know,
he didn't have the greatest belief in me
and I didn't really wanna write the book.
And I met someone who suggested
that they would be a ghost writer for me.
And they were a muchbetter ghost than a writer.
(29:23):
And eventually this George Floyd
incident happens and Murder happens.
And, and George W. Bush says,
we need to finally address,you know, the, the, the racism
of this country and finallyput an end to it kind of thing.
I'm paraphrasing and I gotfurious if you wanted to do that,
(29:47):
George W. Bush, you havepower, you have influence.
You could have made thattruly a mission of yours
and you could have donesomething about it.
And I had just watched Hillary kind
of do her political thing.
And so I'm pissed at this point,
and I meet a woman whocan be an editor for me,
(30:07):
and I wanted her to be a ghost writer.
And she was like, Nope,this needs to come from you,
but I will help guide you along the way.
And so we started off withstories about my journey and,
and, uh, in this processI came up with seven steps
to healing the harms of our culture
using my organizationalpsychology, some of the steps
(30:30):
that would take us throughthe change process.
I identified seven steps
and that became, youknow, my purpose work from
that point forward.
- And so then, what isthe title of the book?
- The book is called Race for What?
The, uh, subtitle is a White Man's Journey
and Guide to Healing Racism from Within.
(30:53):
And, um, like I said,stories of my journey
of which I've summarizedhere as well as, uh,
seven steps to healing.
- Great. It sounds like it, you know,
it might've taken a littlewhile to get the book, uh,
in motion in a way youwanted it to, to read.
- Yes.
- But eventually got there
(31:14):
and, you know, has solid information.
- Yeah. My father, who'svery well read, uh,
gave me a compliment.
He said, I don't know ifyou're gonna take this
as a compliment, but it's much
better than I thought it would be.
And, and so I called my best friend
'cause I said, I don'tknow how to take that.
(31:34):
Is that a compliment?He said, oh, absolutely.
That's a compliment comingfrom Larry for sure. So.
- That is truly great from the man
who is editing your dissertations.
- Yes.- Now, uh, you haven't mentioned it yet,
but I do know that it exists.
So do you wanna talk a littlebit about your podcast?
(31:56):
- Yes. So the podcast iscalled Same Difference.
Uh, we recorded our firstseason of 27 episodes.
Um, prior to meeting this,Kory May, I started to try
and work with a different Kory May
who spelled their names thesame, both of them, Black men,
both of them lacked hair likeI do on the top of their head.
(32:20):
And I get a message one day, um, from
LinkedIn about a Kory May.
And so I see this spelled
K-O-R-Y-M-A-Y,
and I reach out to him on LinkedIn
and I say, Hey, K Mayyou know, congratulations,
great work, whatever.
(32:41):
And he goes, Hey man.
And he goes, what's up?What's happening with you?
And I said, oh, I justmoved down to Florida.
I took a job, you know, and whatever.
And he goes, Florida, that's interesting.
And then he looks at my profile
and he sees the work that I'm doing,
and he says, Hey, I would like
to know more about the work you're doing.
(33:02):
And I went, that's strange,
you know, about the work I'm doing.
And then I opened up his profile
and it said, Iowa City, not, uh, east St.
Louis. And I went, oh, thisis a different Kory May.
So we exchanged, um, contactinformation and we spoke,
and after about 30 to 45minutes, we both talked about
(33:24):
how we had a desire to do a podcast,
but we didn't reallyknow what to do it on.
And we are like, yeah,you know, if you can think
of something great,
otherwise very nice to meet you,
wish you well, kind of thing.
And that night I was falling asleep
and I was thinking, wow,
Black man grew up in Iowa City.
(33:45):
I bet you he grew uparound mostly white folks.
I grew up around mostly Black folks.
What if we just got to knoweach other on this podcast,
told our stories and startedto develop this relationship
and talk about how that'sinfluenced our perspective
and our approach to life.
And I called him the next day
and he said, you know, I was
(34:06):
kind of thinking something similar.
And so from there,
not knowing whether we couldtrust each other to follow
through or not, we justtook a leap of faith,
started putting it together,
and we purposely decided notto learn about each other
other than, you know, howwe wanted to set things up,
but nothing about our pastexcept for on the podcast.
(34:30):
And that's how we've done this.
- And then what's theplan for future seasons?
- So season two, we will continueto learn about each other.
I just started talkingabout my Nelly days.
We really went through upbringingthrough college right now.
So we are just now gettinginto work and family.
Um, but we're also gonnastart incorporating more
(34:51):
and more of what's happeningin the world, right?
Like if we were recording rightnow, it would be about, um,
about Kaitlyn Clark, who'sfrom Iowa, you know, who went
to college in Iowa City, um, and, uh,
and Angel Reese and the WNBA
and the popularity growing around that.
(35:14):
Or we would talk aboutthe presidential elections
and some of the things,uh, regarding that.
Um, and you know, we'll getinto some things from a,
uh, geopolitical economic in, in every,
in current lifestyle standpoint,
but mainly still also keeping the
main thing, the main thing.
(35:35):
We still have a lot more tolearn about each other.
- Right.It sounds like, youknow, you were able to kind
of luck into this relationship in a way to
put more good informationout into the world.
- Yes. - So then what is kindof the plan for the future?
You've got a book, you've gota podcast going, you know,
(35:56):
you've got your doctorate.
What other things are you hopingto like, help make change?
- So I would really love to getinvolved in the college age,
uh, group, right?
I, and I started reaching out to colleges.
I've actually spoken at,uh, college in Florida,
(36:16):
um, one in St.
Louis. Uh, I've been invited to come back.
Um, right now it's verydifficult to get in there.
This is too much of a polarizing issue
and there's a lot of fear around them.
But the college agestudent, right, though,
as we spoke about earlier,learning what you wanna be
as an adult, they're much more open
(36:38):
to the seven steps than some of us old,
foggy headed adults that havealready developed our ways
and, and , you know, voteaccording to our personal, uh,
you know, what's best in ourpersonal agendas and whatnot.
And I really wanna start
to see whether I candevelop an understanding
(36:59):
and a different approachbecause I feel like
that college student,whether, you know, no matter
what background you come from, you can see
that this system is not set up to really
bring us all in
and give us as great anopportunity versus try
and manipulate us
and things in, in certain waysto believe that all we have
(37:20):
to do is work a certain wayor behave a certain way.
And we can have these, these riches
and I want us to see this more, uh,
that there's a, a an opportunityto heal from the harms
of our culture to create adifferent way of interacting.
And that'll be beneficialto a lot more of us.
(37:42):
And, you know, that's mytarget and goal.
- Yeah, no, it's definitely agood age to get in front of
and to, you know, kindof speak your message.
So that, I think that'sdefinitely important.
So then where kind ofare you at now with your
(38:02):
surroundings, your friends?
Are you still kind oflike living in an area
that is segregated or where are you now?
- Yes, so, so I still live in St. Louis.
It's still pretty segregated.
The, uh, coming back from Florida, um,
I ended up taking over aspace my mother was in, um,
(38:26):
and she had moved quitefar away from the, uh,
area in which I grew up in.
So I'm looking to move backinto that area soon, um,
and do some more communitywork as well as, you know,
continue to push to speak tothe, uh, college age students.
Um, but yes, I'm a littlefurther out than I'd like to be,
(38:49):
and it's a good experience.
Again, all of it's part of my journey
to really see, you know, St.
Louis is known, especially inside of St.
Louis, as sort of thiswhite flight capital.
And so as Black folks havemoved into the city, they moved,
white folks moved out to thecounty as Black move folks,
(39:11):
moved out to the county,
white folks moved to a different county.
And I'm at the far end ofthat different county where
white flight continues tomove further and further away.
Um, and so to just experienceand listen to folks and,
and see the difference inwhat and how that's going.
And so that I can also be ableto address that if, uh, if
(39:36):
questions or concernscome up along the path.
Um, that is some of thework that I'm doing.
I'm also, uh, started thebusiness that I went down
to Florida was an alternative
to health insurance calledmedical cost sharing.
It's much more of acommunity feel approach
to sharing in the cost ofmedical expenses without all
(39:59):
of the paperwork of, ofhealth insurance, which
also drives the cost up.
Um, so it's a low lower cost
alternative to health insurance.
And so we are starting anagency, three partners from
that business that I left, um,
and I are starting an agencycalled Because Health.
(40:21):
And, um, we are looking atoffering that as an alternative
to small businesses and, andindividual entrepreneurs and,
and contractors, uh, tobe able to have the access
to healthcare without the,the absorbent cost of it.
Um, and so that seems tofit along with my mission
(40:43):
and, uh, and so things that are, you know,
about offering analternative to this lifestyle
that actually is more aboutimproving the quality of life.
That's, that's where I'm setand what I would love to do.
- Awesome. And it all started with
that intentionality from your parents.
(41:04):
So what was, you know,their growing up experience,
their experience in whiteculture and Black culture?
- So I've asked them this
and they sometimes don't evenknow what, what spurned them
to want this for their children,
but my mother wrote thisessay back in school.
(41:25):
Her father was a well-to-do lawyer,
and um, they were raised by, you know, a,
a maid housekeeper
and a gardener
that was heavily involvedin their upbringing.
And they had greatrelationships with these folks.
And my mother's twin brother, uh,
(41:46):
was killed in a caraccident at 15 years old,
and she was in the kitchen
with her father whenthe, um, gardener came
around the back to enter thehouse when all of his friends
and colleagues werecoming in the front door
because he was Black,he came through the back
(42:07):
and he was the most hurt bythe loss of, of her brother.
And she witnessed herfather recognize this
and say, you actuallyfeel the loss more than
the people that arecoming in the front door.
Never again should youhave to come into the back.
(42:29):
You are, you know, you are welcome
to come in through the front.
And that change and that shift
and the relationship thather mom had with, uh, them,
because her mom was veryinfluential on me as far as,
you know, trying not to judge situations
before you really get the understanding,
seek some real understanding about
(42:50):
where folks are comingfrom, what's leading them
to behave certain ways.
So she was so open
and welcoming as well ofall my friends, um, to see
that from, from that experience led.
And I asked her
and she kind of identifiedthat as a point of wanting
(43:10):
something different for her children.
My father, um, you know, hejust kind of had this in some
of his brothers, whether itwas listening to R&B music
or whatnot growing up.
He just had this idea thathe wanted that different
and he went to, you know, college
and kind of fought forintegration at that level.
(43:33):
And he was more so on, onthe fighting the system side
or changing the system side, um,
than having the relationshipthat actually spurned him
to want, uh, want this for the, for them.
But between the two oftheir stories, that's
what led them towards this.
(43:53):
- Great. Well I appreciateyou sharing that, especially
because earlier when youwere talking about, you know,
wanting to get in front ofcollege age students, you know,
because that's a time when people are
figuring out who they are.
And you also mentioned, youknow, the people of your age
who might already be set in their ways
and you just shared stories about like,
this didn't even just necessarily start it
with your parents, but alsolike your grandparents.
(44:16):
And so it's not, you know,this is something for you,
it's been more thanjust since 2020. - Right.
- Um, so it's just kind oflike, great to hear that part
of your story as well.
- Yes. - Great.
Well, before I start to wrap things up,
is there anything elseyou would like to share
with the listeners today?
(44:37):
- Yes, I want to share that oneof the things that I learned
that were key to the developmentof our culture is that
in the northern regionwhere less melanated folks
found ourselves able tosurvive, let's think hundreds
of years ago before we wereever, you know, had cars
(44:59):
and planes and, and trains and,
and the ability to travelthe earth and, and internet
and phones and whatnot,
something had to spark.
It couldn't have been justborn with a certain skin.
You're evil born with a different skin.
You're not, something hadto create a, a desire to
(45:21):
have this level of racism.
And what that is, and what I learned about
what racism is, is it's trulyabout controlling resources.
And so, uh, uh, you can seethis, your audience can't,
but if you, and I only thoughtthat this was the amount
of water that I'm holding in my hand
left on the planet, right?
(45:42):
Because in this northern region,
we're not getting theresources that we need.
Our bodies are made up of thesame elements of the earth.
We need all of thoseelements with us, right?
And if we're not getting that,
then there's a scarcity to that.
And if there's a scarcity,
if we think this is the only water left,
then Sarah, I got news for you.
(46:03):
We probably not gonna be as friendly
as we are right now, right?
'cause every sip that Itake, you're gonna see that
and go, Hey, that's asip I could have had.
And you start to developthe zero sum mentality.
And if you notice some ofthe characteristics of our
approach, our economics are taught to us
(46:25):
that there is a scarcity ofresources on the planet, and
therefore we need to control what we can
and everybody is in a competition.
And that goes back toa scarcity mentality.
When I experienced going
and living with the, um,with the group in Israel,
I learned that that's an abundantway of looking at things.
(46:49):
There's more than enough we canshare, we can, we don't have
to be threatened by one another.
We can all participate and
therefore we can alllook out for each other.
And that is called a villageto raise a child approach.
And that's the main difference.
It's not about who's goodand who's bad, right?
We, we so much get caughtup in men versus women,
(47:13):
LGBTQ versus straight,
like everything isresponded in a in a way that
as if we're in a competition,including the term race.
And if we just took a step back
and said, we don't have tobe opposed to one another
to have different pointsof view perspectives
and enjoy one another's perspectives,
(47:35):
there's more than enough for us
to all live comfortablyif we start to desire that
for everybody and recognize
that they're also desiring that for us.
And so that's what I'll leave you with.
- A good thing to leave ona good, you know, message
to share there, um, somegood analogies as well.
(47:57):
So I appreciate you sharing all of that.
Now, at the end of all my episodes,
I do ask my guests a random question.
So my question for youtoday is, what is the most
relaxing part of your day?
- The most relaxing partof my day is when I'm,
when I'm not rushed, whenI'm cooking for myself
(48:21):
or cooking for my family,
something about the abilityto provide nutrition and,
and in a flavorful way.
And, and it's expressive and it's caring,
and it's all of these different things
that should bring peaceto us in our lives.
(48:41):
And that is my littlezone of, of enjoying,
you know, my time.
And I'm not the greatestcook as far as like fancy
with all these different,
but I can saut myvegetables, I can, you know,
do my baked goods or whatever I need to,
but I, that part I really enjoy.
(49:09):
- All right. That bringsthis episode to a close.
So if you would like toconnect with JD himself,
his podcast, whatever youwould like, there will
of course be some linksin the description.
There will be his website andsome of his social medias.
So TikTok and Instagram, if you wanna go,
follow those pages and connect with him.
Of course, if you would liketo connect with this podcast,
(49:29):
our website is in the descriptionas well, brings you to all
of our past episodes, the various guests
and their resources bringsyou to our social media.
We are on Instagram,Facebook and LinkedIn.
And if you would like tobe a guest on the podcast
and share your own story, myemail is in the description.
That is always the best way to reach me.
And if you would like to donateto the podcast monetarily,
(49:51):
there is a link to do that as well.
So thank you so much, JD, forspending time with me today
and to my listenersfor taking the time out
of your day to hear a new story.
Until next time, bye.
- Thank you.
- Hello and welcome to Introducing Me.
I'm your host, Sarah. Istarted this podcast to get
to know other people and lifestyles while
discovering more about myself.
Each episode, I'll givea new guest a chance
to discuss their background,culture, interests,
or whatever they want to talkabout to help increase all
of our own worldviews.
Today, I would like tointroduce you to JD Mass.
(00:35):
He has been on a lifelongjourney to understand the roots
of racism and work towardsa more equitable world.
He is a white man who has beensurrounded by Black culture.
So he's here to talk about hisupbringing, his life today,
and all of the thingshe is, you know, doing
for a more equitable world.
So I'm excited to haveJD here this evening.
(00:58):
So thank you so much, JD.
Why don't you go ahead and tellthe audience more about you.
- Well, thank you, Sarah.I appreciate you, uh,
inviting me onto your platform and, um,
and you know, what yourplatform is all about
because I do enjoy the storytellingside of things as well.
(01:18):
Um, so my name is JD Mass.
I was born in the seventies,um, uh, the oldest
of two siblings who were raised by parents
that intentionally wantedwhite parents, uh, um,
who intentionally wanted to raise us in
and around Black culture.
(01:39):
And, uh, along the way teach us not
to be racist, which intention,that takes intentions
as well, because you, you know,we're inherently in a system
that is, is, uh, racist,
especially the furtherback we get, um, in time.
And so growing up, uh,
(02:04):
you can see on the cover of the book,
but your audience can't see.
But this was my prompicture and, uh, of me
and my closest friends,
and I'm the only, uh, person
of less melanated skinon the, on the picture.
So, um, all of my friends growing up
when I was born in Philly, um, in an area
(02:27):
that they chose because of its diversity,
and then they were born and raised in St.
Louis and moved back to St.
Louis when I was fouryears old, next door to
who became my best friends, their family.
It was grandmother, you know, aunts
and uncles living in the house, mom
and the sons that I was raised around.
(02:49):
And, uh, you know, so fromthe time I was four years old,
I've had my best friends
and their family be my second family,
or an extension of my family.
Um, and so through thattime, having in St.
Louis where it's really segregatedother than the part part
that I grew up in, which iscalled University City, um,
(03:13):
uh, the, the things I
started to notice were that Iwas raised differently, right?
My, when I was in the third grade,
and we learned aboutDr. Martin Luther King
and had to write a little essay,
I didn't quite understandwhy he was famous,
because to me it just made sense.
(03:33):
But learning about himmade me open my eyes
that maybe I was taughtdifferently than other folks.
And as I started to recognizeracism from cops stopping me
and my friends when we werewalking from going to the mall
and being treated differentlywhen I was with them
or treated differently, thenthey were treated, um, when I,
(03:54):
you know, I was alone,uh, it just started to
increase my awarenessthat racism was existing.
Um, discrimination wasexisting, and I wanted to learn
and understand why.
It just, it didn't make sense to me.
So why has been sort of the leading, uh,
(04:15):
part of my journey in, infinding out my purpose work.
I wanted to just get a graspon what made us way back when,
kind of create thesetypes of systems and, um,
and better understand whypeople had these prejudices,
had these discrimination, uh, techniques
(04:36):
and things of that nature. So.
- Yeah.
So your parents were veryintentional, you know, putting you
in areas to surroundyourselves with Black culture
to make sure you and yoursiblings wouldn't be racist.
So what, you know, kind of didyou do as you were growing up
to learn more, to figure out, like
(04:58):
what were other people were thinking?
Like how, you know, whatsort of learning did you do?
What sort of things did you learn that
wasn't your way of thinking?
- Right. So one of the things, um, that
growing up the way I didallowed me to learn was
(05:19):
through experiencing diff,you know, being around
and welcomed into thehomes of Black folks.
So, you know, the, when people try
to deny their racism, Idon't, I'm not racist.
I have my Black friends,I have my, you know,
colleagues at work that I get along with.
We treat each other this way.
(05:40):
Most of what they don't understand is
that they're in their culturewith somebody else sort
of visiting that space.
You know, I ask 'em, so when you meet
with your Black friends, doyou go to their neighborhoods
or do they come to yours?
Are they meeting you atWhole Foods and Starbucks,
or are they meeting, are yougoing into their neighborhoods
(06:00):
and parks and things of that nature?
And so one of the thingsI was able to hear
is how Black folks weretreated from their perspective,
how they thought of whiteculture from their perspective,
and then go home and haveconversations with my father
and my mother about thesesystems that were in place.
(06:23):
My mother is a doctor.
She wasn't necessarily intothe anti-racism as much
as she was into helping people.
And this medical systemthat was being set up, uh,
in the HMO time waslike when I was a child,
she was completely againstthis whole way of insurance
and hospitals forming these mergers
(06:45):
and creating a, a incentivenot to treat people well,
but to medicate them and, and,
and, you know, keep them, uh,
from really gettingaccess to the best care.
Because if they're not sick,
then we don't make as much money.
But also, if you'regetting tests done, then
(07:07):
that's gonna cost the, thebusiness, which we call hospitals
or, you know, insurance companies,
and then you're notgonna get paid as much.
And so that whole idea,she was just fighting that,
and I got to experience andwatch her stand her ground
and try to maintain a private practice
(07:27):
where she really took the timeto get to know the patients.
Right. On the flip side,my father was an attorney,
or is an attorney, and hewould teach me about from the
criminal justice systemto the education system.
He was very well read in Cornell West or,
or, um, I, Michael Eric Dyson,
(07:48):
or I think it's Michael Eric, um, uh,
but, uh, in various authors and, and
and whatnot that wouldteach about the way systems
of oppression were set up.
So I got to learn about theconditions people grew in,
and then go and experiencehow they internalized it
and reflected it back on us.
(08:10):
- And so then were you everkind of looked at differently
because you were likegoing into Black culture,
that there was kind of a, like,
what is this white guy doing here?
- So, yes. You know, in thebeginning, um, I would go
with my friends playing,they would play basketball
(08:30):
and I would just be hanging out with them.
And we would go into inner city parks,
into inner city rec centers,
and I would be the onlywhite person there.
And I remember when, um, youmay be too young to know about,
uh, midnight basketball,
but this was an initiativeback in the Clinton presidency
where they tried to give,uh, this alternative, um,
(08:54):
to being out in the streets this midnight,
and it literally startedat midnight basketball
league, right?
And they would have'em all over the place.
Well, literally, I would bethe only white person there
nine times outta 10.
Um, and so yeah, we would get stares,
and then somebody from eachcommunity would often come
(09:17):
and say, okay, you keep showing up.
Let me introduce myself.
Some others would, you know,oh, there goes the police,
or, you know, make fun of me or whatnot.
And as long as I took it
and accepted it as just being fun, uh, it,
it started to break the ice.
But the consistency ofme showing up, the fact
(09:37):
that my friends stood up for me
and vouched for me, often helped as well.
On the flip side, I would play tennis.
I would be around white folks doing that.
I would go to mygrandparents' country clubs.
I would go in
and experience other thingsin, in my synagogue or whatnot,
and I would get white.
(09:57):
I would get the opportunityto develop relationships
with white children my age.
And a lot of the times whenthey would find out that
majority of my friends are Black,
they would get sick whenit was time to hang out ,
and we would no longerhave this relationship
that was starting to build.
(10:18):
Right. And so I, I watched
and noticed how uncomfortable they were,
or even to the point of, ofbeing afraid that to even come
around and hang out withme at that level. So.
- Definitely an interesting path
to be taking as a young kid.
So what was schooling like for you?
(10:40):
Like, was your schooldistrict also very segregated?
- So in University City,
the population at the time Igrew up was literally about 50
50 with a very small Asian population.
So half the rest of it washalf and half white and Black.
(11:00):
However, the school district was 85%,
um, Black.
And so a lot
of the white parents weresending their children
to private schools or religious schools.
Um, the, uh, as you got even older, right?
So there were two, um,two elementary schools
(11:24):
that had a predominantly white,
or at least a heavilywhite, um, uh, population.
As you got into middleschool, it was up in the 90%.
And at high school it was around93% Black African American.
So I was definitely in the minority.
And I even watched inthere, there's a book,
(11:44):
something about sitting in the cafeteria.
Um, but, uh, that's how it would be most
of the white students would sitat those two or three tables
and, and everybody else wouldsit at the other tables,
and I would be one ofthe few white students
that were sitting amongstthe Black folks in
(12:05):
the, in the cafeteria.
But I just, I had a levelof acceptance of them.
I didn't necessarily,like, I definitely speak
with the slang, um, in comfort growing up,
but I didn't necessarilytry to portray myself
as not being white.
I just accepted who they wereand they accepted who I was.
(12:26):
And I, I felt very welcome.
- Right. That's definitelyimportant to acknowledge kind of
where you were at and howlike that acceptance worked.
Then what was it likepost high school for you?
A lot of people, youknow, sometimes they'll go
past high school to likecompletely different situations
(12:48):
and cultures, or they kind of like. - Right.
- Do the same sort of thingthey've been used to.
- Right. So Sarah, I had
what I call three freshmanyears of college. .
I was not the, uh, moststudious person in, in, uh, in,
you know, uh, elementarythrough high school.
(13:10):
But I did wanna start being studious
when I became in college.
And I went to Ohio State University,
which I do not recommend ifyou're not a good student
and wanting to become a good student
to start at the largest school in America.
Right. Um, and I endedup in the athletic dorm,
but what I did notice was I was
(13:31):
around a lot more white students
and I got to developrelationships with them.
And some of them grew up in,in kind of racist households,
they would use the N word quite a bit.
And yet we still foundquite a bit to share in an,
in an experience that allowed us
to develop good relationships.
(13:52):
Um, and over that timeI even witnessed them
feeling uncomfortablewith how they grew up
or how their friends wouldspeak to them when I was around.
Right. And you could see
and feel the change ofenergy happening over time
because I wasn't trying toforce or fight them, right.
(14:12):
I was much more interestedin fighting the system,
but not individual people,
because I understood howwe grew up differently.
And I wa I wasn't gonnaget along with a lot
of the people in my space,
but they also got to see meinteract with like athletes.
The Ohio State football teamhad quite a few athletes in the
(14:32):
dorm, and they took a liking to me.
And so they got to seeme interact with them,
and it was a, it was really a great social
setting in that standpoint.
And I, like you said, I, I got to see how
students going into college,you're really trying
to figure out who am Igonna be as an adult?
(14:53):
So some of us take our childhood with us
and continue, others say,okay, that was my childhood.
This is going to be different.
I'm going to start, you know,becoming this as an adult,
and that's that age when youare, you know, learning what
that means for yourself.
So I could see peoplegoing through changes.
(15:15):
I could see others thatwere kind of, you know, more
grounded in who they were.
And so, yeah, it was a good experience.
So that was my first freshman year,
but my grades were such,
my mother did not want me coming back.
And, uh, so I had to learnhow to get, you know, better
(15:36):
at being a student.
- So what were the othertwo freshman years then?
- So, uh, my second freshman year, I,
I got into some troublewhen I came back, um, uh,
from, um, college, uh, that summer
my friends were starting to get access
(15:58):
to guns.
Um, and there were somerivalries that were developing
that we weren't necessarilytrying to be a part of,
but felt like we had to,um, uh, protect ourselves.
And, um, and so at onepoint there was an incident
with a friend's brother wherethe father of the person
(16:21):
of the kid that he got intoit with came and got involved,
and we had to get involvedand police were called,
and my parents weren't used to that,
and they put me on punishment.
And so I ended up thatnext freshman year, sort
of in a night school at what's Webster
University here in St.
(16:41):
Louis. And that taught me, I was at home.
If I wasn't at work orat school, I was at home
and I was getting mystudy skills together.
And, uh, I eventuallyended up going to St.
Louis University for the next four years.
Um, and, uh, and going through
and figuring out that Iwanted to be in business
(17:04):
and be entrepreneurial, andI took, uh, finance and,
and so, um, that was where I ended up
for the next four years.
So that was my third freshman year.
- And so then, you know, youdecided entrepreneurship,
doing finance, but you alsoat the same time, you know,
(17:26):
are passionate about an equitable world.
So like, how do those two things mix?
- So when I'm in high school, um, the
malls weren't technologically as advanced
as they were today.
And so we could go in, I could,
(17:47):
the return policy workeda lot better for me than
for my friends, right?
And I would see this in action.
I would see friendsget who wear a size 13,
I'm five foot three, somy shoe size is nine.
And you know, I gotfriends that are six five,
and they would come out intothe parking lot, hand me shoes
(18:08):
that they were not able to return.
And I would go back into the mall
and I would return them to the same person
that denied them five minutes ago
and get a different pair of shoes.
And I saw this work over
and over again to where I tookback shoes from size seven
to 13, almost to thesame stores regularly,
(18:28):
and got no problems.
Uh, and it was just,
it was very eyeopening and amazing to me.
And it sort of set meon this path of, okay,
probably can't fight thesystem from the outside.
What if I learn thesystem from the inside?
And in studying finance,
I learned about the banking industry,
and I really wanted to go intothe banking industry, kind
(18:51):
of work my way up to the top
and see where I could make aninfluential change either by,
you know, offering loans
and teaching people how to get loans
for entrepreneurial projectsor whatever that was.
Well, um, so my des my design was, my,
my mission was kind of workmy way through the inside.
(19:12):
I, I was hotheaded, so I wasn'tgonna be a great protester
and try and argue pointswithout getting angry
and, and whatnot.
So I thought if I, if I wentinto the, uh, system that way.
And then, I don't know if you'veseen the cover of the book,
but kneeling next to me is Nelly, um, who,
(19:32):
whose career started to take off right
around the time when I wasin, uh, going into banking
and had just finished college.
And so when his careertook off, he asked me
to come help him start upsome entrepreneurial projects.
Eventually his career tookoff so fast that his, um,
(19:52):
managers approached me
and asked me could Ihelp them with, you know,
setting up their company.
And I became his businessmanager as a partner
of their management company.
And so I started to realize,oh, I can make any phone call
and start off and get towhoever I wanted to talk to just
by saying, this isNelly's business manager,
(20:15):
JD, right?
And so I thought, okay,I can work my way up,
develop relationships, and
because of Nelly, I willeventually get my chance
to make an impact the way I want it to.
Well, through difference in cultures and,
and your listeners can, can get the book
(20:37):
and learn from, uh, um, uh,
chapter five about my time with him.
I recognized that therewas a difference in
how I would do business, howthey would do business in,
um, inside his camp.
And it was a struggle at times.
And I made my mistakes not,you know, earning the trust
(21:00):
that I knew, you know, better.
And they made, and Nellycertainly had different ways
of wanting to manage hisbusinesses than I did.
And eventually in 2004, we kindof stopped working together.
Um, but I had met through his uncle
a community in Israel of expatriate, uh,
(21:22):
African Americans that left in the sixties
to form another way of living.
And it was about peace.
It was about vegan diet, and,
and it was about, uh, so health and,
and all of these things kindof getting back to living a, a,
a way of caring and sharing forone another, but also caring
and sharing for the planet and being one
(21:45):
and connected with the planet.
And when I saw this community, the level
of peace and,
and care for one another,the level of humanity
that I experienced in myfirst trip there, uh, really
opened up my eyes.
My grandmother went to Israel with me,
(22:05):
and she took some time tocome see this community,
and we were walking through the community
and I had to use the restroom.
And the prince that wastaking us through said, Hey,
just go in any door.
And I was like, yeah,that's not gonna happen.
These were like single story apartment
looking like structures.
I was like, Hey, I'm notwalking through any door.
(22:25):
That's not gonna happen. So I keep going
and he goes, you know, you saidyou had to use the restroom,
go up there and, and walkin and use the restroom.
And so I go up and Iwent to knock on the door
and he said, I didn't say, knock,
we haven't locked our doors in 40 years.
Open the door and peek your head in
and tell 'em you wanna go to the restroom.
They'll let you knowwhere to go. And so I did.
(22:48):
I go in, I open thedoor real quietly, kind
of peek my head in and he, they go, Hey,
baby, what do you need?
Some water, some food, youneed to use the restroom.
I'm like, I need to use the restroom.
I'm very timid at this point.
And I come out, they give mesome water, we keep walking,
and then a 2-year-old comesrunning around the corner.
(23:10):
Uh, we are the only adultsin sight, and my grandmother
and I are just like, what is going on?
And the prince says, oh,are you going to the park?
And we keep going andhe says, don't worry,
there's more eyes on thekid than you realize.
But also they are raised to realize
that the entire villageis their home, not just
inside their apartment.
(23:31):
Right. And that was eye-opening,still brings me, um,
goosebumps to speak about it,
and I wanted to be a part of that.
And so to get involvedin learning about that,
my sister ended up moving to Israel, um,
met her husband there,they have three children.
But to see that at thelevel of, in which I saw
(23:54):
and wanting to, you know, helpspread that type of energy,
um, I had to learn a lot more about
how much intentions go intobuilding something different.
And that kind of processput me through a change.
- Yeah, I mean, it's kind
of a completely different way of life.
(24:15):
It sounds like lots ofdifferent experiences, you know,
to see, you know, justsort of an open community
that, you know, is surroundedby peace and acceptance.
- Yeah. - So then, sinceexperiencing those moments, um,
what have you gotten up to?
(24:38):
- So I worked with them, uh,
I think financial strugglesin Los Angeles at this time.
I was living in Los Angeles.
I moved out there in 2003when I was with Nelly.
Um, and so I worked with themin the vegan food company
and Positive Music Works, uh, company.
And, you know, we put on, uh,different health fairs and,
(25:03):
and distributed food to markets.
And so I got to still bemy entrepreneurial self,
but I had to really learn adifferent way of doing it.
About 2011
or 2010, I met my son's mother.
Um, my son was six yearsold when I met his mom.
(25:24):
Um, and, uh, and I was, and
because of financial reasons, the,
the community in LosAngeles was struggling
to stay, stay there.
So she and I ended upmoving in with each other
and she was this moremilitant type, uh, you know,
aggressive person that that really had to,
(25:47):
that felt passionate about, you know,
wanting some systemic change.
And she said to me, well,at one point it is great
that you love us the way you do,
and it is great thatyou know what, you know,
but if you don't go over
and help your people change,
then you're not doing us any good.
(26:07):
And I didn't really wanna hear that.
And , I didn't, you know,I wasn't excited about
that I idea, and Ididn't really know where
to go and how to connect.
But at the same time, I was going
through a doctorate programin organizational psychology,
which was teaching me aboutthe intentions of leadership
(26:28):
and how something is started
and the, you know, the energyused to start something
and how that creates a cultureand develops into a culture.
And I was able to applythat to my initial search
for why did racism exist.
And so as I'm startingto apply these things
and learning the difference,
(26:49):
and I've learned thedifferences in the two cultures,
and I'm starting to kind of try
and put all this together,
Donald Trump ends upwinning the presidency.
And I hear about this communityout in LA called White
People for Black Lives.
I went, oh, I'm one of those,
let me figure out howto get a part of that.
(27:10):
And so I heard about them.
They were, you know,supporting Black Lives Matter.
Um, and I go to startto go to their meetings.
I want to go to every singlemeeting I can be, be a part of
and, um, and see how I can be involved.
And here's my chance todo exactly what she said
(27:31):
and to put me on the pathof, okay, now I can go meet
with people who also want change.
And what I realized ismany of them wanted change,
yet they had no experiencewith Black community.
And they, most of them justwere having aha moments,
whether it was Michael Brown,you know, Trayvon Martin, um,
(27:57):
uh, some different, youknow, murders by the police
or somebody at theirwork made them realize
that they didn't have thesame concerns as, you know,
their white colleagues did.
All of these differentthings were happening
where people were having these aha moments
and getting involved in this.
(28:17):
And it was, there was stilla lack of understanding of,
you know, what the otherside wants and needs.
And we are trying to help them.
And so I often, I wouldstruggle to relate.
I would feel like I'm a doctorate talking
to a fifth grader, right?
And, and so I, I was just missing them.
And I don't say that to put anybody down.
(28:39):
I say that based on experience.
I struggled and eventually I wanted to,
to write my thoughts out.
And that's what led meto writing the book.
Um, what really spur I wastrying, I was not a good writer.
My father was my editorthroughout my dissertation work.
Um, you know,
(29:00):
and he, when I would tellhim I wanna write a book,
he would be like, oh, I'm gonna have
to edit this whole thing .
So, um, he ended up, you know,
he didn't have the greatest belief in me
and I didn't really wanna write the book.
And I met someone who suggested
that they would be a ghost writer for me.
And they were a muchbetter ghost than a writer.
(29:23):
And eventually this George Floyd
incident happens and Murder happens.
And, and George W. Bush says,
we need to finally address,you know, the, the, the racism
of this country and finallyput an end to it kind of thing.
I'm paraphrasing and I gotfurious if you wanted to do that,
(29:47):
George W. Bush, you havepower, you have influence.
You could have made thattruly a mission of yours
and you could have donesomething about it.
And I had just watched Hillary kind
of do her political thing.
And so I'm pissed at this point,
and I meet a woman whocan be an editor for me,
(30:07):
and I wanted her to be a ghost writer.
And she was like, Nope,this needs to come from you,
but I will help guide you along the way.
And so we started off withstories about my journey and,
and, uh, in this processI came up with seven steps
to healing the harms of our culture
using my organizationalpsychology, some of the steps
(30:30):
that would take us throughthe change process.
I identified seven steps
and that became, youknow, my purpose work from
that point forward.
- And so then, what isthe title of the book?
- The book is called Race for What?
The, uh, subtitle is a White Man's Journey
and Guide to Healing Racism from Within.
(30:53):
And, um, like I said,stories of my journey
of which I've summarizedhere as well as, uh,
seven steps to healing.
- Great. It sounds like it, you know,
it might've taken a littlewhile to get the book, uh,
in motion in a way youwanted it to, to read.
- Yes.
- But eventually got there
(31:14):
and, you know, has solid information.
- Yeah. My father, who'svery well read, uh,
gave me a compliment.
He said, I don't know ifyou're gonna take this
as a compliment, but it's much
better than I thought it would be.
And, and so I called my best friend
'cause I said, I don'tknow how to take that.
(31:34):
Is that a compliment?He said, oh, absolutely.
That's a compliment comingfrom Larry for sure. So.
- That is truly great from the man
who is editing your dissertations.
- Yes.- Now, uh, you haven't mentioned it yet,
but I do know that it exists.
So do you wanna talk a littlebit about your podcast?
(31:56):
- Yes. So the podcast iscalled Same Difference.
Uh, we recorded our firstseason of 27 episodes.
Um, prior to meeting this,Kory May, I started to try
and work with a different Kory May
who spelled their names thesame, both of them, Black men,
both of them lacked hair likeI do on the top of their head.
(32:20):
And I get a message one day, um, from
LinkedIn about a Kory May.
And so I see this spelled
K-O-R-Y-M-A-Y,
and I reach out to him on LinkedIn
and I say, Hey, K Mayyou know, congratulations,
great work, whatever.
(32:41):
And he goes, Hey man.
And he goes, what's up?What's happening with you?
And I said, oh, I justmoved down to Florida.
I took a job, you know, and whatever.
And he goes, Florida, that's interesting.
And then he looks at my profile
and he sees the work that I'm doing,
and he says, Hey, I would like
to know more about the work you're doing.
(33:02):
And I went, that's strange,
you know, about the work I'm doing.
And then I opened up his profile
and it said, Iowa City, not, uh, east St.
Louis. And I went, oh, thisis a different Kory May.
So we exchanged, um, contactinformation and we spoke,
and after about 30 to 45minutes, we both talked about
(33:24):
how we had a desire to do a podcast,
but we didn't reallyknow what to do it on.
And we are like, yeah,you know, if you can think
of something great,
otherwise very nice to meet you,
wish you well, kind of thing.
And that night I was falling asleep
and I was thinking, wow,
Black man grew up in Iowa City.
(33:45):
I bet you he grew uparound mostly white folks.
I grew up around mostly Black folks.
What if we just got to knoweach other on this podcast,
told our stories and startedto develop this relationship
and talk about how that'sinfluenced our perspective
and our approach to life.
And I called him the next day
and he said, you know, I was
(34:06):
kind of thinking something similar.
And so from there,
not knowing whether we couldtrust each other to follow
through or not, we justtook a leap of faith,
started putting it together,
and we purposely decided notto learn about each other
other than, you know, howwe wanted to set things up,
but nothing about our pastexcept for on the podcast.
(34:30):
And that's how we've done this.
- And then what's theplan for future seasons?
- So season two, we will continueto learn about each other.
I just started talkingabout my Nelly days.
We really went through upbringingthrough college right now.
So we are just now gettinginto work and family.
Um, but we're also gonnastart incorporating more
(34:51):
and more of what's happeningin the world, right?
Like if we were recording rightnow, it would be about, um,
about Kaitlyn Clark, who'sfrom Iowa, you know, who went
to college in Iowa City, um, and, uh,
and Angel Reese and the WNBA
and the popularity growing around that.
(35:14):
Or we would talk aboutthe presidential elections
and some of the things,uh, regarding that.
Um, and you know, we'll getinto some things from a,
uh, geopolitical economic in, in every,
in current lifestyle standpoint,
but mainly still also keeping the
main thing, the main thing.
(35:35):
We still have a lot more tolearn about each other.
- Right.It sounds like, youknow, you were able to kind
of luck into this relationship in a way to
put more good informationout into the world.
- Yes. - So then what is kindof the plan for the future?
You've got a book, you've gota podcast going, you know,
(35:56):
you've got your doctorate.
What other things are you hopingto like, help make change?
- So I would really love to getinvolved in the college age,
uh, group, right?
I, and I started reaching out to colleges.
I've actually spoken at,uh, college in Florida,
(36:16):
um, one in St.
Louis. Uh, I've been invited to come back.
Um, right now it's verydifficult to get in there.
This is too much of a polarizing issue
and there's a lot of fear around them.
But the college agestudent, right, though,
as we spoke about earlier,learning what you wanna be
as an adult, they're much more open
(36:38):
to the seven steps than some of us old,
foggy headed adults that havealready developed our ways
and, and , you know, voteaccording to our personal, uh,
you know, what's best in ourpersonal agendas and whatnot.
And I really wanna start
to see whether I candevelop an understanding
(36:59):
and a different approachbecause I feel like
that college student,whether, you know, no matter
what background you come from, you can see
that this system is not set up to really
bring us all in
and give us as great anopportunity versus try
and manipulate us
and things in, in certain waysto believe that all we have
(37:20):
to do is work a certain wayor behave a certain way.
And we can have these, these riches
and I want us to see this more, uh,
that there's a, a an opportunityto heal from the harms
of our culture to create adifferent way of interacting.
And that'll be beneficialto a lot more of us.
(37:42):
And, you know, that's mytarget and goal.
- Yeah, no, it's definitely agood age to get in front of
and to, you know, kindof speak your message.
So that, I think that'sdefinitely important.
So then where kind ofare you at now with your
(38:02):
surroundings, your friends?
Are you still kind oflike living in an area
that is segregated or where are you now?
- Yes, so, so I still live in St. Louis.
It's still pretty segregated.
The, uh, coming back from Florida, um,
I ended up taking over aspace my mother was in, um,
(38:26):
and she had moved quitefar away from the, uh,
area in which I grew up in.
So I'm looking to move backinto that area soon, um,
and do some more communitywork as well as, you know,
continue to push to speak tothe, uh, college age students.
Um, but yes, I'm a littlefurther out than I'd like to be,
(38:49):
and it's a good experience.
Again, all of it's part of my journey
to really see, you know, St.
Louis is known, especially inside of St.
Louis, as sort of thiswhite flight capital.
And so as Black folks havemoved into the city, they moved,
white folks moved out to thecounty as Black move folks,
(39:11):
moved out to the county,
white folks moved to a different county.
And I'm at the far end ofthat different county where
white flight continues tomove further and further away.
Um, and so to just experienceand listen to folks and,
and see the difference inwhat and how that's going.
And so that I can also be ableto address that if, uh, if
(39:36):
questions or concernscome up along the path.
Um, that is some of thework that I'm doing.
I'm also, uh, started thebusiness that I went down
to Florida was an alternative
to health insurance calledmedical cost sharing.
It's much more of acommunity feel approach
to sharing in the cost ofmedical expenses without all
(39:59):
of the paperwork of, ofhealth insurance, which
also drives the cost up.
Um, so it's a low lower cost
alternative to health insurance.
And so we are starting anagency, three partners from
that business that I left, um,
and I are starting an agencycalled Because Health.
(40:21):
And, um, we are looking atoffering that as an alternative
to small businesses and, andindividual entrepreneurs and,
and contractors, uh, tobe able to have the access
to healthcare without the,the absorbent cost of it.
Um, and so that seems tofit along with my mission
(40:43):
and, uh, and so things that are, you know,
about offering analternative to this lifestyle
that actually is more aboutimproving the quality of life.
That's, that's where I'm setand what I would love to do.
- Awesome. And it all started with
that intentionality from your parents.
(41:04):
So what was, you know,their growing up experience,
their experience in whiteculture and Black culture?
- So I've asked them this
and they sometimes don't evenknow what, what spurned them
to want this for their children,
but my mother wrote thisessay back in school.
(41:25):
Her father was a well-to-do lawyer,
and um, they were raised by, you know, a,
a maid housekeeper
and a gardener
that was heavily involvedin their upbringing.
And they had greatrelationships with these folks.
And my mother's twin brother, uh,
(41:46):
was killed in a caraccident at 15 years old,
and she was in the kitchen
with her father whenthe, um, gardener came
around the back to enter thehouse when all of his friends
and colleagues werecoming in the front door
because he was Black,he came through the back
(42:07):
and he was the most hurt bythe loss of, of her brother.
And she witnessed herfather recognize this
and say, you actuallyfeel the loss more than
the people that arecoming in the front door.
Never again should youhave to come into the back.
(42:29):
You are, you know, you are welcome
to come in through the front.
And that change and that shift
and the relationship thather mom had with, uh, them,
because her mom was veryinfluential on me as far as,
you know, trying not to judge situations
before you really get the understanding,
seek some real understanding about
(42:50):
where folks are comingfrom, what's leading them
to behave certain ways.
So she was so open
and welcoming as well ofall my friends, um, to see
that from, from that experience led.
And I asked her
and she kind of identifiedthat as a point of wanting
(43:10):
something different for her children.
My father, um, you know, hejust kind of had this in some
of his brothers, whether itwas listening to R&B music
or whatnot growing up.
He just had this idea thathe wanted that different
and he went to, you know, college
and kind of fought forintegration at that level.
(43:33):
And he was more so on, onthe fighting the system side
or changing the system side, um,
than having the relationshipthat actually spurned him
to want, uh, want this for the, for them.
But between the two oftheir stories, that's
what led them towards this.
(43:53):
- Great. Well I appreciateyou sharing that, especially
because earlier when youwere talking about, you know,
wanting to get in front ofcollege age students, you know,
because that's a time when people are
figuring out who they are.
And you also mentioned, youknow, the people of your age
who might already be set in their ways
and you just shared stories about like,
this didn't even just necessarily start it
with your parents, but alsolike your grandparents.
(44:16):
And so it's not, you know,this is something for you,
it's been more thanjust since 2020. - Right.
- Um, so it's just kind oflike, great to hear that part
of your story as well.
- Yes. - Great.
Well, before I start to wrap things up,
is there anything elseyou would like to share
with the listeners today?
(44:37):
- Yes, I want to share that oneof the things that I learned
that were key to the developmentof our culture is that
in the northern regionwhere less melanated folks
found ourselves able tosurvive, let's think hundreds
of years ago before we wereever, you know, had cars
(44:59):
and planes and, and trains and,
and the ability to travelthe earth and, and internet
and phones and whatnot,
something had to spark.
It couldn't have been justborn with a certain skin.
You're evil born with a different skin.
You're not, something hadto create a, a desire to
(45:21):
have this level of racism.
And what that is, and what I learned about
what racism is, is it's trulyabout controlling resources.
And so, uh, uh, you can seethis, your audience can't,
but if you, and I only thoughtthat this was the amount
of water that I'm holding in my hand
left on the planet, right?
(45:42):
Because in this northern region,
we're not getting theresources that we need.
Our bodies are made up of thesame elements of the earth.
We need all of thoseelements with us, right?
And if we're not getting that,
then there's a scarcity to that.
And if there's a scarcity,
if we think this is the only water left,
then Sarah, I got news for you.
(46:03):
We probably not gonna be as friendly
as we are right now, right?
'cause every sip that Itake, you're gonna see that
and go, Hey, that's asip I could have had.
And you start to developthe zero sum mentality.
And if you notice some ofthe characteristics of our
approach, our economics are taught to us
(46:25):
that there is a scarcity ofresources on the planet, and
therefore we need to control what we can
and everybody is in a competition.
And that goes back toa scarcity mentality.
When I experienced going
and living with the, um,with the group in Israel,
I learned that that's an abundantway of looking at things.
(46:49):
There's more than enough we canshare, we can, we don't have
to be threatened by one another.
We can all participate and
therefore we can alllook out for each other.
And that is called a villageto raise a child approach.
And that's the main difference.
It's not about who's goodand who's bad, right?
We, we so much get caughtup in men versus women,
(47:13):
LGBTQ versus straight,
like everything isresponded in a in a way that
as if we're in a competition,including the term race.
And if we just took a step back
and said, we don't have tobe opposed to one another
to have different pointsof view perspectives
and enjoy one another's perspectives,
(47:35):
there's more than enough for us
to all live comfortablyif we start to desire that
for everybody and recognize
that they're also desiring that for us.
And so that's what I'll leave you with.
- A good thing to leave ona good, you know, message
to share there, um, somegood analogies as well.
(47:57):
So I appreciate you sharing all of that.
Now, at the end of all my episodes,
I do ask my guests a random question.
So my question for youtoday is, what is the most
relaxing part of your day?
- The most relaxing partof my day is when I'm,
when I'm not rushed, whenI'm cooking for myself
(48:21):
or cooking for my family,
something about the abilityto provide nutrition and,
and in a flavorful way.
And, and it's expressive and it's caring,
and it's all of these different things
that should bring peaceto us in our lives.
(48:41):
And that is my littlezone of, of enjoying,
you know, my time.
And I'm not the greatestcook as far as like fancy
with all these different,
but I can saut myvegetables, I can, you know,
do my baked goods or whatever I need to,
but I, that part I really enjoy.
(49:09):
- All right. That bringsthis episode to a close.
So if you would like toconnect with JD himself,
his podcast, whatever youwould like, there will
of course be some linksin the description.
There will be his website andsome of his social medias.
So TikTok and Instagram, if you wanna go,
follow those pages and connect with him.
Of course, if you would liketo connect with this podcast,
(49:29):
our website is in the descriptionas well, brings you to all
of our past episodes, the various guests
and their resources bringsyou to our social media.
We are on Instagram,Facebook and LinkedIn.
And if you would like tobe a guest on the podcast
and share your own story, myemail is in the description.
That is always the best way to reach me.
And if you would like to donateto the podcast monetarily,
(49:51):
there is a link to do that as well.
So thank you so much, JD, forspending time with me today
and to my listenersfor taking the time out
of your day to hear a new story.
Until next time, bye.
- Thank you.
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