November 12, 2024 • 46 mins
Lisa Cox loved her job as a copywriter in advertising when nearly twenty years ago, as a fit, healthy, non-smoking 24-year old, she had a stroke. After a year in the hospital, Lisa came out with multiple visible and invisible disabilities. She has come to learn what her “new normal” is, including life in a wheelchair and living with brain injury and neurodiversity. Lisa now works as an inclusive advertising consultant striving to change social attitudes around disability.
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https://www.instagram.com/lisacox.co/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisacox-authorspeakerconsultant/
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Music/Editing: youtube.com/colemanrowlett
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
- Hello and welcome to Introducing Me.
I'm your host, Sarah. Istarted this podcast to get
to know other people and lifestyle
as while discovering more about myself.
Each episode, I'll givea new guest a chance
to discuss their background,culture, interests,
or whatever they want to talkabout to help increase all
of our own worldviews.
Today, I'd like tointroduce you to Lisa Cox.
Nearly two decades ago,
(00:36):
Lisa had a successful careerin corporate advertising
agencies when life took a turn.
Medically, she died twice in a hospital,
and now Lisa is changing social
attitudes towards disability.
So I'm excited to have Lisahere talking about, you know,
the past couple years of herlife, what she's got going on,
um, and I'm grateful forher to be here today.
(00:56):
So thank you so much, Lisa.
Why don't you go ahead
and tell the audience more about yourself.
- Sure. Hi Sarah, and hey everyone.
It's really great to be here this morning.
So I guess I could, Icould tell you all the,
the professional stuff, whichis what I like talking about,
but there's that, that disability thing
that is such a huge partof my life these days.
(01:18):
So I was born neurodivergent,
but didn't realize that at the time.
And when I was 24, theproverbial really hit the fan.
I was at the airport onemorning and had a stroke.
So fortunately they didn'tlet me board the plane.
Um, I just started talkinggibberish and collapsed
and don't remember any of that.
(01:39):
But I went into hospital, was in a coma
for three weeks on lifesupport for two months,
and in hospital for over a year.
And during that first year, it was,
I was on, a lot of stuff happened.
I've been back plenty of time since,
and this was almost 20 years ago.
So my left leg, all of my right toes
(01:59):
and nine of my fingertips were amputated.
I had heart surgery,totally lip replacement,
and they're all the invisible things.
You can see. I'm like a patch of a quilt ,
you just can't see it.
But I'm under all these clothes.
There's missing piecesand scars everywhere,
but there's a lot of,of scarring on my brain,
and that causes more challenges for me
(02:23):
with all the invisible disabilities.
So I'm over 25% blind, have epilepsy.
My speech has been a littlebit affected, gets worse
and better depending how,
how tired I am and things like that.
Um, chronic pain, chronic fatigueare also a really fun part
of my life to this sarcasm.
But that's, yeah, that's me now.
(02:45):
So it's been nearly 20years that I've been,
been living this life withreally severe disabilities,
a prosthetic leg in awheelchair full time,
and just learning to get,get back to some sort
of normality, I suppose.
- So what was it like that kind
(03:06):
of first year being in a hospital?
Like what really changed in your life?
Like, was it kind of night
and day like you werehealthy, you were doing all
of these things, then it got just kind
of all piled on at oncein that first year?
- Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.
So I was a fit
and healthy 24-year-old didn'tfit the normal stereotypes of
(03:30):
what someone, you know, smoking, obese,
all, all those sorts of things.
I was none of that, that people
would normally have a stroke.
Um, so it came as a shock tome and my family, obviously.
And then that first yearin hospital, first I was,
the first few months Iwas on so much medication
that I wasn't really awareof what, what was happening.
(03:53):
And then on one hand I was bored out
of my mind and terrified.
But on the other hand, itsounds really, really trite
and I don't want it to sound silly,
but I was incredibly grateful
because I knew that one, Iwasn't supposed to be alive.
I, um, I family got thecall to say, come to
(04:14):
interstate to Melbourne.
She's not gonna be alive in the morning.
They were told they might haveto turn off my life support,
all sorts of things like that.
Um, and secondly, yes, Iwas in a public hospital bed
with really shitty hospital food,
but that was a hell of a lotbetter than a lot of people,
um, in other parts of theworld that I'd, I'd traveled
(04:35):
to in my, my previous years.
And so I tried to keep that in mind
because yeah, you, therewas nothing I could do
to change my situation.
I could only really change
how I thought about itand, and things like that.
- And so then how did your career change
(04:55):
as you were getting out of the hospital?
- Yeah, that was, that was,it's definitely changed.
So I used to work full-time in advertising
agencies as a copywriter.
So for those who unfamiliarwith that, I made advertising.
I wrote the scripts for radioon TV and things like that
(05:16):
and helped produce them.
And then I wrote the, the adsin the paper or the magazine
or on the website or something like that.
So loved, loved, lovedmy job so much, working,
working in media,
in the creative industry,all those sorts of things.
And then when thishappened, I, all I wanted
(05:37):
to do was go to work.
I desperately wanted togo to work, couldn't wait,
but at that time I couldn'teven hold a pen to write my name,
couldn't, couldn't write,couldn't do anything.
And even though I'm independent now, um,
back then all I coulddo was blink my eyes,
wiggle on my fingers, and
that was all the movement I could do.
(05:58):
So couldn't, couldn't do anything.
But my head was just turning through ideas
and as I, I now realize
that was my ADHD brain wouldn't be quiet,
but, um, had my sisterwho worked in advertising,
bringing in advertisingbriefs to me in the hospital,
so I can think about things like that.
(06:19):
So as soon as I could, I gotback to work in advertising,
um, in advertising agencies,
but soon realize that it wasn't,
it wasn't the right fit for me.
But now what I do is combinemy professional background
with my lived experience and help brands
and businesses who want to be inclusive
(06:41):
and include disability andtheir advertising and content
and things, but reallydon't know where to start.
And I come that as someone whoused to be that non-disabled
person who wanted to do better,
but just didn't know where to start
and shouting at people from Twitter or X
or , whatever it is now.
(07:01):
And that wasn't going to help.
I needed practical solutionsand industry experience.
So that what I tried tobring to the business
as an individual as I work withnow is that, that level of,
of understanding of industry experience,
but also lived experience.
(07:21):
- And so what sort of thingsdo you do to help, um,
advertising agencies orthese companies who want
to be more inclusive whenit comes to disability?
What kind of suggestionsare you giving them?
So it is authentic
and it is, um, relative
to like your lived experience.
(07:44):
- Sure. Well, rather thanjust my lived experience, try
and make it as much ofthe disability community
as they can, but peoplecan get so overwhelmed
that, oh, we have to do, we have
to do everything we can for everyone.
That's, that's, that'snot, that's not the case.
(08:05):
Um, first thing, like consistency is,
is a really obvious one.
If you're going to includedisability in your advertising,
for example, don't just do itonce a year on international
day of people with disability
or once every four yearswhen the Paralympics is on.
Make it a consistent incidental
and seamless inclusion just all the time.
(08:25):
If you have five guys standing at the bar,
then why not make one of 'em disabled?
Just as an example.
Um, another thing is to engage
with the disability community.
So if there's not adisabled creative or writer
or a art director, producer
or something like that onthe creative team, then
look at bringing in experts.
(08:47):
Because often you can get a, a bunch
of non-disabled creatorswho have the very best
of intentions and maybe write a script
or an ad that's sotokenistic and cringe-worthy,
but they don't realize that
because they haven't got thatlens to see it through.
So someone like myself can, can come in
(09:08):
and say, no, you might wanna just do this.
And also it's really tiny tweaks about
how they pan the camera
or changing a word ortwo or things like that.
But, um, yeah, talking,talking 'em through that
and understanding thatthey, they do have the best
of intentions and good on them for trying,
because often people are soafraid that they do nothing
(09:30):
and that's not the right answer.
- And so do you find that thesecompanies you're connecting
with, um, you know, thatthere is good intent
that they are trying
and that you know, it, you are surrounded
by an inclusive culture?
(09:51):
Or are there still somestruggles with even just kind
of integrating disabilityinto the day to day?
- Oh, there's, there'sdefinitely still struggles.
So in, in a, in an idealworld, I would love for them
to look at it holistically
and go, okay, we wantinclusion in our advertising,
but now workplaces as well,
(10:12):
and not just in entry level jobs,
but in HR, in all the,all the levels on board.
But we have to start somewhere.
So perhaps for them it'sinclusion in advertising,
but I ask them to also lookat maybe their workplace, who
with the disability is working there,
or is the workplacepsychologically safe so that people
(10:36):
with a invisible disabilityfeel comfortable disclosing?
Because that's another problem we see is
that there's actually more people
with disabilities in yourworkplace than you thought,
but the environment isnot psychologically safe
and people are afraid of losingtheir jobs or being bullied
or something like that,so they don't disclose it.
And as a result, arent gettingthe accommodations they need.
(11:00):
- And so what was yourexperience like finding out about
your individual disabilities in the world
of Neurodivergence and ADHD?
- That was a, an interesting one
because I already had all of my, uh,
physical disabilities, Isuppose, and some invisible ones,
(11:21):
but already had all of those.
But, uh, as a, a later diagnosed person,
everything fell into place,made a lot more sense.
Um, I'm like, oh, that's, that'swhy I've always done that.
And that's why, that's whythat happened, that it's not,
I don't just need to readanother, another book,
another something and tryand fix it, quote unquote,
(11:42):
but that's just me.
So I've become a lot morecomfortable with everything
that I previously thoughtwas a deficiency, I suppose.
- And what was thediagnosis journey for you?
Like, did you kind of likego in to someone saying like,
Hey, can I be tested for this,
(12:03):
or what was your experience with that?
- My experience was horrible,
and it's great now that I've, I've found,
found someone wonderful,
but it's been, um, let me see, close to a,
just under a decade probably.
So I started talking to different,
(12:24):
different specialists about it.
And I have a, a, you know, great GP
and people like that wasdismissed multiple times.
Somebody laughed at me and gotthe, the feedback about, oh,
everyone's got that these days.
You know, every, everywoman in their forties is
complaining about all, all theusual stuff, unfortunately.
(12:45):
So I got a bit gun shy
and just, um, lived withit, I suppose all of these
symptoms which had gotworse as my brain injury
and were getting, gettingworse again, just lived with it
as a, as a way to, I suppose, just masking
and masking thinking I,it can't be me, they're,
(13:06):
they're the doctors Iknow I'm talking about.
And finally found someone, um,who was, who was really great
to speak to, who did,did do all the testing
and the, everything like that.
So it's been really good working with her.
- And so then when youkind of go into various
business spaces, are you upfront with
(13:30):
kind of your disabilitiesthat need accommodations
or like, are you kind offocusing on one thing?
Like how much are you
disclosing into the spacesyou end up in for work?
- I'm fairly honest with,with pretty much everything.
I suppose some things aremore obvious that others,
(13:51):
I'm in a wheelchair full time, so I need,
need wheelchair accessand, and things like that.
And then even, um,
before we started recording,I said, I remember saying
to you, um, just know thatthere may be a little bit
of processing speed
because my processing speed has dropped
since my brain injury.
(14:13):
Um, so if you ask me a question
and there's a pause, youmay have to edit that out, .
- And so then when, youknow, you, you mentioned how
right after, you know, you weregetting out of the hospital,
like you didn't have thecapacity to do the work,
and now here you are kind ofworking with your disabilities,
(14:34):
living full-time in thewheelchair, having conversations.
What was the progression like for you?
Was it something that youjust kind of kept striving for
or was it like extremelydifficult to get from one place
to knowing like everything thathappened before the stroke?
(14:57):
- So everything
that spit out ?
Um, yeah, the, the one mistake I did make,
going back to my, um, my initial recovery
was that I wrongly assumedthat, um, life will return
(15:18):
to quote unquote normal.
Um, I'll, I'll walk again,I'll, I'll do these,
I'll do these things again.
And two things.
Firstly, I, I made walking my objective
and that was the biggestmistake I ever made, made
because I spent a couple ofyears just doing daily rehab,
trying to teach myself how to walk.
(15:41):
Um, and that that wasnever going to happen,
at least not, not safely.
And if only I had justgone, well, you know what?
Life in a wheelchair'snot gonna be that bad.
If I knew I'd had thatunderstanding back then
I would've jumped straight in a
wheelchair and got on with life.
Like, I'm now got through aroundthe gym, around the world.
I love my wheelchair.
(16:02):
And the other mistake I madewas during the brain injury
would just because I couldn't see it,
I suppose invisibledisabilities, it's difficult
for everyone to know, butI couldn't see it myself.
So I was like, oh, it's, it's no biggie,
but it's actually morechallenging for me personally
than my prosthetic leg, my wheelchair,
my missing fingertips,all the physical stuff.
(16:25):
It's, it's what you can't see.
And, um, that, that for meis, is more challenging.
So not understanding
that early on I just thought I could
go back to an advertising.
I just need to start working same hours,
8:00 AM till 9:00 PM crazy, crazy hours.
And even though thosesorts of hours, I love
(16:48):
that adrenaline rush.
It definitely was notcompatible with my new life.
- Yes. And, and havingto deal with the tangible
and the intangible or the visible
and the invisible, um, you know, to,
to be balancing all of that at once.
Had you previously,
because you know, youdid at one point want
(17:10):
to make walking a goal.
Um, had you interacted with a lot
of people in a wheelchair previously?
- Yes and no. Like, I wentright through through school
with kids in a wheelchairand with other disabilities,
but not, not an awful lot.
(17:31):
A lot of what I knew,even though I had friends
and family with disabilities, a lot of
what I knew about disabilitywas fed to me through,
through media and popculture and things like that.
So that's another reason why I do so much
of the work I do today,
because I knew that Icouldn't change anything
about my disabilities.
They were all permanent,but what I could do was help
(17:53):
to change the way we werebeing represented in some
of the world's most powerful
and influential industriesthat were telling me
and people like me thatwe were, we were worthless
or less than or shouldn't be employed
because we're all incapable
and just those really harmful stereotypes.
(18:13):
So I never ever want anyone
to feel like I did 20years ago in hospital
and every year thousands of people
of millions are requiring disabilities
and parents are being toldyour child has been a will be
born with a disabilityand getting diagnoses.
I never want anyone to, to feel that way
that our life is life's pretty shit now
(18:34):
that I've got disabilities
because it's not, it doesn't have to be.
- And so do you find in the past 20 years
as you've been in a wheelchair that
the world is more accommodating?
Um, 'cause you've talkedabout travel, um,
or, um, has everything kindof been sort of status quo?
(18:57):
- I think it has improved a lot now.
It has improved a little bit.
Um, I'm thinking back tomaybe 15 odd years ago,
I started my businessand was talking, engaging
with businesses about including diversity,
including disability
and being, you know, better,better representing us
and just got some raised eyebrows
(19:19):
and like, oh, why would we do that?
That's not worth our time.
But now to see airlines, um,
I suppose having diversity
and inclusion people on the staff
who are their specific job is to look
after individuals like myself,not that I need looking
after, but specifically there to,
(19:43):
to address travel needs, um,for people with disabilities.
There's more and moreawareness about the value
of the disabled consumerand the disabled traveler.
Um, I dunno the exact stat Iknow people who do though,
and as struggles as consumers, we,
we spend money on, onairfares, clothes, all,
(20:06):
all of those sorts of things.
So that dollar value wasn'tthere 20 odd years ago
and certainly wasn't being talked about.
There was no social media as well.
But these days that informationis shared a lot there
reports and, and things like that.
Going into these things whichweren't previously happening,
(20:26):
you know, the value of thedisabled traveler, for example,
the dollar value, I thinkthat's making this change,
that tune a little bit could
because they can, they can see our worth
and sure it shouldn't have taken a report
and a dollar value for them to do that,
but hey, it's happening,so we'll do what we
can.
(20:47):
- Right. And so where are you traveling to?
Like, what are you getting upto outside of your home base?
- So next week I'm down in Sydney.
There's a, um, really exciting
employment seminar happening down there.
Bus Stop Films is aorganization here in Australia.
(21:08):
They're brilliant and they train
and educate people with disabilities
to work behind the camera.
Um, also, um, acting as well,
but really interested in that, um,
inclusive filmmaking spaceand inclusive advertising and,
and all of those sorts of things.
So they're holding a employmentsummit down in Sydney
(21:31):
and I'm, I'm going down to that, to,
to moderate a panel aboutadvertising, inclusive advertising
with industry professionalsand people with disabilities,
and then get to get to Melbourne a bit
as well in, in Australia.
But we love different places overseas,
but of course everything comesdown to what is accessible
(21:52):
and, and what's not.
So I've been to Fiji a few times, um,
because part of the family's there,
but unfortunately it's,it's really not accessible,
so I don't, don't leave the hotel much.
- And so, you know, inyour travels, you know,
the first one you mentionedwas this, this job
(22:14):
related, um, position.
Did you always imagine that youwould end up in advertising?
Like was that always the main goal?
- Yeah, sorry. I neverguess I'd be doing, uh,
being an inclusive advertising consultant,
but I always, um,
(22:37):
always really loved advertising.
But going back to, I'm not surehow it works over your side
of the world, but whenyou're in, in high school,
you pick all your subjectsin for your senior,
for your senior year levels.
And I wanted to be an occupationaltherapist desperately.
And so I studied science andpicked on my science subjects
and really didn't enjoy any of them .
(23:02):
Um, and did my workexperience at a hospital
where I was later apatient for, for the year.
Um, but yeah, obviously didn't become
an operational therapist.
And then in my final semesters at school,
did this course in advertisingand creating a campaign
and like, wow, what is this?
(23:24):
This is awesome. And thenfell into to advertising
and didn't look back until obviously
2005 when everything happened.
I was like, I, I love this job.
I can't do it in the same way,
but I still want to be involved.
So rather than work in theagencies, I'll consult to them,
(23:44):
um, as a, as a way tostay involved, I guess.
- And do you think, you know,long term you'll continue
to stay as a consultant
or you might end up atsome point back kind
of in the agencies?
- I don't think I'll endup back in the agencies.
(24:04):
I think I'll always be doingsomething that's a little bit
creative slash social justice,
and that's what I loveabout what I'm doing now.
It's where creativity means social justice
and it's, um, a bit of a blend.
But I've always said that I hope not
to be a disability consultant.
I I want to be retired
because it would be greatif everyone just knew
(24:27):
that they have to include disability.
They don't need someone
to just show them exactly how to do it.
But we're in such anevolutionary stage at the moment,
I suppose that, um, it's,it's kind of necessary.
- Mm-hmm, right, like now is the time.
Ideally, you know, yourposition wouldn't be needed,
(24:48):
but here we are.
Um. - Yeah. - Now, was socialjustice a part of your life
before the injury
or did that kind of comewith advocating for yourself?
- It had always been partof my pre-disability life,
(25:08):
but I suppose growing uppre-disability, I'd just been a,
a feisty little feminist,um, arguing for, you know,
women's rights and the inclusionof women in advertising
and things like that becauseI had no lived experience
and I was an ally for disability,
but didn't, wasn't the theoutspoken advocate that I am now.
(25:31):
- And do you find thatthere are more advocates in
advertising than there was 20 years ago?
Whether for disability,whether for women's rights
or like kind of what is the vibe?
Um, for inclusivity in advertising?
(25:51):
- I'm seeing a lot more, um,
whether it's individuals
or organizations, therearen't stereotype lines,
which is part of Huan women,um, that's one organization.
They have a base here in Australia,
they're doing representation,whether it's uh, gender,
ethnicity, um, disability, that sort
(26:15):
of thing across advertising.
But I love their work andthey went around 20 years ago
and there's lots ofother organizations, um,
one based here in MelbourneMavens who work specifically
around representations, genderinclusion, uh, gender equity
and those sorts of thingsin, in advertising.
So I'm really happy to see them popping up
(26:37):
and would love to see more,
but also back to back to myself, I have,
I wish they didn't existand didn't have to exist,
but at the moment they do andit's wonderful that they do.
- And do you think, youknow, as ideally the
advertising industrybecomes more inclusive, um,
(26:58):
would you see yourself kind of staying in
advertising in a different facet
or kind of staying on thesocial justice movement
before the ideal of retirement?
- That's a really good question
that I don't have goodanswer to and I only say that
(27:22):
because any, anything is really possible
and I, I'm doing my PhD at the moment
and who knows what area I'm going
to go in after that.
Um, I really enjoy socialjustice and creativity.
Um, a combination of them both.
(27:43):
I think just, just one, um,
dunno if I'd enjoy, enjoy nearly as much,
but I, I just have learnedfrom, from everything
that anything can happen.
So honestly, who knows .
- And what are you getting your PhD in?
(28:03):
- That'll be in, uh,disability, employment
and how representation inadvertising of disability,
the correct representationaffects our employment outcomes
and other social outcomes.
- And what is your PhD experience like?
Is it very rigorous?
(28:25):
Is it something that'sgonna take many, many years?
What is, um, kind of likethe background that got you
into the levels to be able toget a PhD and how is it going?
- It is going well so far
and I certainly hope itdoesn't take many, many years
because , um, I enjoy the, um,
(28:48):
the research process
because I did a, um, aresearch proposal last year
and that's having, having those boundaries
and that structure andthat, that really worked me
and I really enjoyed it.
So it's, it's a bit of a slog.
So, which, which this space ask me in a couple of years
(29:09):
that I, I may just be defeated.
- Yes.
But I mean, you know, aPhD, you're doing research,
you'll figure out your thesis.
Um, so, uh, I'm sure alot of good work to come.
- I hope so.- And what sort of pre PhD,
(29:31):
um, accreditations do you have?
- I have, I hold two degreesin business communications
and media.
So that was, that was a little while ago,
but I, I did those prior to my PhD.
- And what got you kindof at, to the point of
(29:55):
I think I'm gonna go formy PhD since there was
a little bit of a gap?
- Wanting, wanting a newchallenge, I suppose.
And that's, that's definitely,
that's definitely tick that off the list.
definitely challenging,
but, um, I've spent, I'vebeen spending, uh, time
(30:16):
in academia and doing, being involved
with different projects and,and those sorts of things.
So I wanted a challenge for myself,
but I also wanted, um,
to create change.
There's, there's thingsthat need to happen
around advertising representation.
There's, there's currentlyno, no research for that
(30:40):
and everything's so well, ifno one else is gonna do it,
I'll, I'll put my handup and see how I go.
But it's, it's still,it's still early days ,
so watch this space.
- Yeah. Still, still lots to get done.
Um, what do you thinkis the biggest change
that is needed in media when it comes
to inclusive representation?
(31:04):
- Oh, big question. There'sso much that needs to change,
but in, in my experience, it's
visibility By visibility that doesn't mean
what heterosexual guys inwheelchairs on the tv, it can be,
um, how we talk about disability,you know, in a news story
(31:24):
or the headline or something like that.
It doesn't have to be what you can see.
Um, but also including us, not just, um,
if, if media is writinga story about the budget,
get some opinions frompeople's disabilities, we,
we too have opinions about climate change
and fashion, , you name it, we we do,
(31:47):
but unfortunately we only,
we only get those opinionsif it's about wheelchairs or,
or something NHS
or whatever, whatever it ison your side of the world.
Um, there's, there's so muchmedia that that can include,
include disability,
but it does start withthat appropriate visibility
(32:08):
that's authentic and consistent.
- And is there an example of an agency
or a specific part of media
that you think is doing a really good job
of showcasing inclusivity?
- I know Channel nine herein Australia is something
(32:28):
recently with the Paralympic Games,
and there's something that I'mreally, really excited about.
It's not my, not mine at all,
but I wanna show up theworld because it's wonderful.
It's called Inclusively Made
and, um, I don't know if you're familiar
with the Heart Foundationhere in Australia.
(32:48):
Food. Okay. Food thatpassed a certain criteria,
got a little logo on theHeart Foundation tick,
and it's basically that, butfor, for media and advertising
and things like that, if, uh,a, a film and advertisement
or something is inclusivelymade, so it has involvement
of people with disabilities in front of
(33:11):
or behind the camera or both.
It passes the accreditationto be inclusively made
and it's only really, really recent here.
And Bus stop films is behind that as well.
But the channel Channel nine, uh,
ran the Paralympics over here
and they, they did a whole lotto ensure that it wasn't just
(33:32):
Paralympics on the Paralympianson the screen for a couple
of weeks and then nothing more.
They, um, ensured that there was,
the production crew had disabilities
and there was all sorts of inclusion
of disability in frontof and behind the camera.
So they, they did a really good job.
They've been doing a, an okayjob for a couple of years now.
(33:56):
ABC here in Australiaalso do a pretty good job
with onscreen representation.
Um, they have a sportsreporter who just happens
to be in a wheelchair, hi Charles Bryce.
Um, and there's a, a fewother people who Nas Campanella
who just happens to be vision impaired.
So it's, it's really, really great
to see those sorts of things.
(34:18):
There's still a long way to go though.
- Of course.
Were you kind of aware of disability being
visible, um, before your disability
or was it more of somethingthat you became hyper aware
of once you were moreingrained into the community?
(34:39):
- I was aware of it, but I'vecertainly become hyper aware,
aware of it now, but I was aware of it,
but I was also aware that the, um,
the way we were beingrepresented was shit house.
And I know that because whenI was first told I was going
to be physically disabled,being in a wheelchair for life,
be vision impaired, all thesethings, I was terrified
(35:03):
because like, oh, disability means this.
And I didn't realize that,that that fear was only
because I had 24 years worth
of media stereotypes in my head.
Um, and like I said before,couldn't change my disabilities,
but we can change theway we're represented so
that no one ever has to,to feel that feel that way
(35:26):
because disabilities is differentfor every single person,
but it's not just going to the Paralympics
and being a tragic misery.
They were the only two, um, stereotypes
that are really presentedto us over here in
Australian TV anyway.
So changing, changing that andsocial media has helped a lot
(35:49):
because a lot of us are now able
to create our own narratives
and produce our own content
and show our own lives,
so we're not just relying onthe gatekeepers who, you know,
decide that you, you don't fit the bill,
you don't look a certain way
or you don't talk a certainway or act a certain way.
No. So that's changed for sorts of,
(36:11):
um, minority groups as well.
Gender and culturally diversegroups are seeing a lot more
diversity on the screensthat now reflect society.
- Yes. Being able to, youknow, share your own narrative
and, you know, having other people out
and visible, um, with being initially
(36:33):
so terrified of life in awheelchair, how quickly,
I guess would be the right word, um, did
that perception start to change
and you were able to belike, yeah, I, I can do this.
- I think it probably atfirst year in hospital,
(36:53):
which is a blur, and then
a couple years after that Iwas still still trying to walk
and then maybe, maybethree, four years of,
there was no set point.
I know there werecertain times in hospital
that made me more comfortablewith disability generally,
(37:14):
and one of those was, um, whenthey told me my leg was going
to be amputated the firsttime I cried my eyes up,
woke up the next morning,had completely forgotten
because of my brain injury.
So they told me againseveral weeks later when my
brain's a bit more healedfrom the, from the stroke.
And this time I rememberedand I was devastated.
(37:36):
I just cried my eyes half days.
They said all the brilliantpsychologist, psychiatrists
and everyone they could findinto my room to talk with me,
but nobody, nobody could help me.
I was just a mess.
And finally my surgeonorganized a girl to come
and speak with me, andshe, I'd been told she'd,
(37:59):
she'd been through the same things
and I remember this beautiful glamazon,
walked into my room, just walked in
hair, hair, breezing.
And I thought, you bitch, what,
what do you know about my life?
This is what, and she sat down
and proceeded to tell me
that both her legs hadbeen amputated, one arm
(38:22):
and her fingertips as well.
She was also, um, partially blind.
And I was absolutely gob smacked.
I've got goosebumps nowtelling, telling you this.
Her name was Phoebe and Phoebe absolutely
changed my world.
She told me how she'd beento London, was studying,
(38:42):
had met this guy,
and like, what, this, thisis not what I, what I knew
that disability was meant.
And so that was a turning point for me.
I'm like, no, life canactually look pretty okay
with disabilities.
Um, and Phoebe, obviouslyhad two prosthetic legs and,
(39:03):
and things like that, butthat was a huge turning point
for me and that's anotherreason why I do share
my story when I can about,I, I don't wanna paint it
as just sunshine and roses,
but life can be manageable and Okay.
Um, with the disability
because I, I know that the value of
(39:26):
of people showing their stories with me.
- Yes. Have you had a momentlike that for you where,
um, you've, you know,connected with someone in
the kind of like pre stageswhen they're in the hospital
or just kind of learning
of this is the futurethat my life will be?
(39:46):
- I
have had a few, I
before I did a lot withdisability advocacy,
I did a lot more workwith, um, body confidence
and body image because I knew
that I couldn't getstraight out of hospital
and become a disability advocate overnight
and start speaking about it.
(40:08):
And, um, to the same extentthat I am now, I mean,
you can obviously be a, anally and do do great things,
but what I did know wasthat even though my body was
a bit messed up, so the scars
and missing pieces everywhere,
I still felt generally okay with it.
(40:28):
And I wish the, the17-year-old version of me or,
or something had had known, hadknown those sorts of things.
I'm like, I'll go and speakto, to young teenagers, um,
about body image and body confidence
because they've got media
and all of these, you know,images coming to 'em about this,
(40:50):
how you should look, this is
how you should and that's bullshit.
Um, because having worked in media,
I knew all the effort wewent to behind the scenes
to Photoshop things and,and do stuff like that.
So I'll just go and talk to'em about that sort of, again,
combining my media backgroundand my lived experience,
but in a different perspective
(41:11):
or from a different perspective.
So, and I had a lot ofyoung people come up
to me afterwards andsay, thank you so much.
You've, you know, really changedmy perspective on things.
And so that, that's alwaysreally nice to hear.
But I wanted to do more thanjust change, change the minds
(41:32):
and the perspectives of, ofteenagers I like, we can work
with this is thegovernment and the industry
and change their minds too.
- Yeah, but it sounds likeit was a good place to start,
a good place to kind of like dip your toes
and more full-time advocacy outside
of being full-time inan advertising agency.
(41:53):
Um, and now you're, uh, in a place
of like just talking to more people and,
and getting through to,um, larger institutions.
- Yeah, I suppose that's,they're the ones who can,
who can really shift theneedle and create change.
So that's, um, that's become a bit, bit
(42:17):
of a plan is to, is to workwith them more at the moment.
- Yeah. Now
before I start to wrap thingsup, I wanna give you a chance
to kind of share anythingwith the listeners
that I haven't prompted you on yet.
Um, whether it's kind ofabout work, personal, um,
anything you at this pointthat you would like to share
(42:37):
and make sure people hear.
- If, if you do have a, anewly acquired disability.
I, um, don't, don't be afraid
to, to do things, to do things your way,
whatever, whatever feels right for you.
I know I, I wanted to getinto disability advocacy,
(42:59):
but had, uh, was told there's only one way
to be disability advocate.
You have to sound like this. Write
like this, do it this way.
And I was really terrifiedof challenging that
and not, not doing it that way,
but now, now it's all I do
(43:21):
and I I really love it thatI was, I was true to myself
and didn't try and fitinto someone else's box of
how a disability advocate should look.
- Great. It's good tohear how, you know, you,
you loved your former career
and now you love what you'redoing even though, you know,
this wasn't originally the path.
Um, but you've like founda place in, in working.
(43:46):
- Yeah, I really do enjoy of work.
- Great. Now, at theend of all my episodes,
I do ask my guests a random question.
So my question for you today is,
what is your favorite Disney
or just general cartoon character?
- Disney needs to do a lot of work
with their representation, but we'll,
(44:07):
we'll just park that for a moment. ,
um, I don't
watch an awful, an awful lot of Disney,
but I suppose Cinderella is
the, the first one that comes to mind.
(44:28):
And I, I don't, I dunnoif I have a favorite one
because I'm so, I'm so annoyed
with Disney for whatthey're doing at the moment
and not, not including disability,
but like heaps of heaps ofcharacters come to mind.
Um, even the, the way the,
(44:53):
the Prince rides in,
and that's a, that's afeminist issue as well,
but that's, it's alsowrong, but I I can't help
but think how, how wrong Disney is.
But yeah, Cinderellais a little bit quirky.
I know because of my brain injury.
I can't remember what myhusband said 20 minutes ago,
(45:14):
but I can still remember all the words.
Roald Dahls, um, the Cinderella,
I guess you think you know this
story, you don't know the rules.
That's like 30 years ago . Ican, I can still remember that.
(45:34):
- All right, that bringsthis episode to a close.
So of course if you wouldlike to connect with Lisa,
her website along with a couplesocial medias will be in the
description, LinkedIn and Instagram.
She is most, um, vocal
and on Instagram, so feel freeto go check her out there.
If you'd like to connect with the podcast.
Our website is in the description as well.
(45:55):
It brings you to our social media
as we are on Instagram,LinkedIn and Facebook.
If you'd like to go follow those pages,
that support is always appreciated.
The website of course, brings you to all
of our past episodes, so feel free
to go find other storiessimilar to Lisa's.
Um, and if you would like to be a guest
and share your story, myemail is in the description.
(46:15):
That is always the bestway to reach out to me.
And if you'd like to supportthe podcast monetarily,
there is a link to do that as well.
So thank you so much, Lisa,for spending time with me today
and to my listenersfor taking the time out
of your day to hear a new story.
Until next time, bye.
- Thanks, Sarah, reallyenjoyed speaking with you. Bye.
- Hello and welcome to Introducing Me.
I'm your host, Sarah. Istarted this podcast to get
to know other people and lifestyle
as while discovering more about myself.
Each episode, I'll givea new guest a chance
to discuss their background,culture, interests,
or whatever they want to talkabout to help increase all
of our own worldviews.
Today, I'd like tointroduce you to Lisa Cox.
Nearly two decades ago,
(00:36):
Lisa had a successful careerin corporate advertising
agencies when life took a turn.
Medically, she died twice in a hospital,
and now Lisa is changing social
attitudes towards disability.
So I'm excited to have Lisahere talking about, you know,
the past couple years of herlife, what she's got going on,
um, and I'm grateful forher to be here today.
(00:56):
So thank you so much, Lisa.
Why don't you go ahead
and tell the audience more about yourself.
- Sure. Hi Sarah, and hey everyone.
It's really great to be here this morning.
So I guess I could, Icould tell you all the,
the professional stuff, whichis what I like talking about,
but there's that, that disability thing
that is such a huge partof my life these days.
(01:18):
So I was born neurodivergent,
but didn't realize that at the time.
And when I was 24, theproverbial really hit the fan.
I was at the airport onemorning and had a stroke.
So fortunately they didn'tlet me board the plane.
Um, I just started talkinggibberish and collapsed
and don't remember any of that.
(01:39):
But I went into hospital, was in a coma
for three weeks on lifesupport for two months,
and in hospital for over a year.
And during that first year, it was,
I was on, a lot of stuff happened.
I've been back plenty of time since,
and this was almost 20 years ago.
So my left leg, all of my right toes
(01:59):
and nine of my fingertips were amputated.
I had heart surgery,totally lip replacement,
and they're all the invisible things.
You can see. I'm like a patch of a quilt ,
you just can't see it.
But I'm under all these clothes.
There's missing piecesand scars everywhere,
but there's a lot of,of scarring on my brain,
and that causes more challenges for me
(02:23):
with all the invisible disabilities.
So I'm over 25% blind, have epilepsy.
My speech has been a littlebit affected, gets worse
and better depending how,
how tired I am and things like that.
Um, chronic pain, chronic fatigueare also a really fun part
of my life to this sarcasm.
But that's, yeah, that's me now.
(02:45):
So it's been nearly 20years that I've been,
been living this life withreally severe disabilities,
a prosthetic leg in awheelchair full time,
and just learning to get,get back to some sort
of normality, I suppose.
- So what was it like that kind
(03:06):
of first year being in a hospital?
Like what really changed in your life?
Like, was it kind of night
and day like you werehealthy, you were doing all
of these things, then it got just kind
of all piled on at oncein that first year?
- Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.
So I was a fit
and healthy 24-year-old didn'tfit the normal stereotypes of
(03:30):
what someone, you know, smoking, obese,
all, all those sorts of things.
I was none of that, that people
would normally have a stroke.
Um, so it came as a shock tome and my family, obviously.
And then that first yearin hospital, first I was,
the first few months Iwas on so much medication
that I wasn't really awareof what, what was happening.
(03:53):
And then on one hand I was bored out
of my mind and terrified.
But on the other hand, itsounds really, really trite
and I don't want it to sound silly,
but I was incredibly grateful
because I knew that one, Iwasn't supposed to be alive.
I, um, I family got thecall to say, come to
(04:14):
interstate to Melbourne.
She's not gonna be alive in the morning.
They were told they might haveto turn off my life support,
all sorts of things like that.
Um, and secondly, yes, Iwas in a public hospital bed
with really shitty hospital food,
but that was a hell of a lotbetter than a lot of people,
um, in other parts of theworld that I'd, I'd traveled
(04:35):
to in my, my previous years.
And so I tried to keep that in mind
because yeah, you, therewas nothing I could do
to change my situation.
I could only really change
how I thought about itand, and things like that.
- And so then how did your career change
(04:55):
as you were getting out of the hospital?
- Yeah, that was, that was,it's definitely changed.
So I used to work full-time in advertising
agencies as a copywriter.
So for those who unfamiliarwith that, I made advertising.
I wrote the scripts for radioon TV and things like that
(05:16):
and helped produce them.
And then I wrote the, the adsin the paper or the magazine
or on the website or something like that.
So loved, loved, lovedmy job so much, working,
working in media,
in the creative industry,all those sorts of things.
And then when thishappened, I, all I wanted
(05:37):
to do was go to work.
I desperately wanted togo to work, couldn't wait,
but at that time I couldn'teven hold a pen to write my name,
couldn't, couldn't write,couldn't do anything.
And even though I'm independent now, um,
back then all I coulddo was blink my eyes,
wiggle on my fingers, and
that was all the movement I could do.
(05:58):
So couldn't, couldn't do anything.
But my head was just turning through ideas
and as I, I now realize
that was my ADHD brain wouldn't be quiet,
but, um, had my sisterwho worked in advertising,
bringing in advertisingbriefs to me in the hospital,
so I can think about things like that.
(06:19):
So as soon as I could, I gotback to work in advertising,
um, in advertising agencies,
but soon realize that it wasn't,
it wasn't the right fit for me.
But now what I do is combinemy professional background
with my lived experience and help brands
and businesses who want to be inclusive
(06:41):
and include disability andtheir advertising and content
and things, but reallydon't know where to start.
And I come that as someone whoused to be that non-disabled
person who wanted to do better,
but just didn't know where to start
and shouting at people from Twitter or X
or , whatever it is now.
(07:01):
And that wasn't going to help.
I needed practical solutionsand industry experience.
So that what I tried tobring to the business
as an individual as I work withnow is that, that level of,
of understanding of industry experience,
but also lived experience.
(07:21):
- And so what sort of thingsdo you do to help, um,
advertising agencies orthese companies who want
to be more inclusive whenit comes to disability?
What kind of suggestionsare you giving them?
So it is authentic
and it is, um, relative
to like your lived experience.
(07:44):
- Sure. Well, rather thanjust my lived experience, try
and make it as much ofthe disability community
as they can, but peoplecan get so overwhelmed
that, oh, we have to do, we have
to do everything we can for everyone.
That's, that's, that'snot, that's not the case.
(08:05):
Um, first thing, like consistency is,
is a really obvious one.
If you're going to includedisability in your advertising,
for example, don't just do itonce a year on international
day of people with disability
or once every four yearswhen the Paralympics is on.
Make it a consistent incidental
and seamless inclusion just all the time.
(08:25):
If you have five guys standing at the bar,
then why not make one of 'em disabled?
Just as an example.
Um, another thing is to engage
with the disability community.
So if there's not adisabled creative or writer
or a art director, producer
or something like that onthe creative team, then
look at bringing in experts.
(08:47):
Because often you can get a, a bunch
of non-disabled creatorswho have the very best
of intentions and maybe write a script
or an ad that's sotokenistic and cringe-worthy,
but they don't realize that
because they haven't got thatlens to see it through.
So someone like myself can, can come in
(09:08):
and say, no, you might wanna just do this.
And also it's really tiny tweaks about
how they pan the camera
or changing a word ortwo or things like that.
But, um, yeah, talking,talking 'em through that
and understanding thatthey, they do have the best
of intentions and good on them for trying,
because often people are soafraid that they do nothing
(09:30):
and that's not the right answer.
- And so do you find that thesecompanies you're connecting
with, um, you know, thatthere is good intent
that they are trying
and that you know, it, you are surrounded
by an inclusive culture?
(09:51):
Or are there still somestruggles with even just kind
of integrating disabilityinto the day to day?
- Oh, there's, there'sdefinitely still struggles.
So in, in a, in an idealworld, I would love for them
to look at it holistically
and go, okay, we wantinclusion in our advertising,
but now workplaces as well,
(10:12):
and not just in entry level jobs,
but in HR, in all the,all the levels on board.
But we have to start somewhere.
So perhaps for them it'sinclusion in advertising,
but I ask them to also lookat maybe their workplace, who
with the disability is working there,
or is the workplacepsychologically safe so that people
(10:36):
with a invisible disabilityfeel comfortable disclosing?
Because that's another problem we see is
that there's actually more people
with disabilities in yourworkplace than you thought,
but the environment isnot psychologically safe
and people are afraid of losingtheir jobs or being bullied
or something like that,so they don't disclose it.
And as a result, arent gettingthe accommodations they need.
(11:00):
- And so what was yourexperience like finding out about
your individual disabilities in the world
of Neurodivergence and ADHD?
- That was a, an interesting one
because I already had all of my, uh,
physical disabilities, Isuppose, and some invisible ones,
(11:21):
but already had all of those.
But, uh, as a, a later diagnosed person,
everything fell into place,made a lot more sense.
Um, I'm like, oh, that's, that'swhy I've always done that.
And that's why, that's whythat happened, that it's not,
I don't just need to readanother, another book,
another something and tryand fix it, quote unquote,
(11:42):
but that's just me.
So I've become a lot morecomfortable with everything
that I previously thoughtwas a deficiency, I suppose.
- And what was thediagnosis journey for you?
Like, did you kind of likego in to someone saying like,
Hey, can I be tested for this,
(12:03):
or what was your experience with that?
- My experience was horrible,
and it's great now that I've, I've found,
found someone wonderful,
but it's been, um, let me see, close to a,
just under a decade probably.
So I started talking to different,
(12:24):
different specialists about it.
And I have a, a, you know, great GP
and people like that wasdismissed multiple times.
Somebody laughed at me and gotthe, the feedback about, oh,
everyone's got that these days.
You know, every, everywoman in their forties is
complaining about all, all theusual stuff, unfortunately.
(12:45):
So I got a bit gun shy
and just, um, lived withit, I suppose all of these
symptoms which had gotworse as my brain injury
and were getting, gettingworse again, just lived with it
as a, as a way to, I suppose, just masking
and masking thinking I,it can't be me, they're,
(13:06):
they're the doctors Iknow I'm talking about.
And finally found someone, um,who was, who was really great
to speak to, who did,did do all the testing
and the, everything like that.
So it's been really good working with her.
- And so then when youkind of go into various
business spaces, are you upfront with
(13:30):
kind of your disabilitiesthat need accommodations
or like, are you kind offocusing on one thing?
Like how much are you
disclosing into the spacesyou end up in for work?
- I'm fairly honest with,with pretty much everything.
I suppose some things aremore obvious that others,
(13:51):
I'm in a wheelchair full time, so I need,
need wheelchair accessand, and things like that.
And then even, um,
before we started recording,I said, I remember saying
to you, um, just know thatthere may be a little bit
of processing speed
because my processing speed has dropped
since my brain injury.
(14:13):
Um, so if you ask me a question
and there's a pause, youmay have to edit that out, .
- And so then when, youknow, you, you mentioned how
right after, you know, you weregetting out of the hospital,
like you didn't have thecapacity to do the work,
and now here you are kind ofworking with your disabilities,
(14:34):
living full-time in thewheelchair, having conversations.
What was the progression like for you?
Was it something that youjust kind of kept striving for
or was it like extremelydifficult to get from one place
to knowing like everything thathappened before the stroke?
(14:57):
- So everything
that spit out ?
Um, yeah, the, the one mistake I did make,
going back to my, um, my initial recovery
was that I wrongly assumedthat, um, life will return
(15:18):
to quote unquote normal.
Um, I'll, I'll walk again,I'll, I'll do these,
I'll do these things again.
And two things.
Firstly, I, I made walking my objective
and that was the biggestmistake I ever made, made
because I spent a couple ofyears just doing daily rehab,
trying to teach myself how to walk.
(15:41):
Um, and that that wasnever going to happen,
at least not, not safely.
And if only I had justgone, well, you know what?
Life in a wheelchair'snot gonna be that bad.
If I knew I'd had thatunderstanding back then
I would've jumped straight in a
wheelchair and got on with life.
Like, I'm now got through aroundthe gym, around the world.
I love my wheelchair.
(16:02):
And the other mistake I madewas during the brain injury
would just because I couldn't see it,
I suppose invisibledisabilities, it's difficult
for everyone to know, butI couldn't see it myself.
So I was like, oh, it's, it's no biggie,
but it's actually morechallenging for me personally
than my prosthetic leg, my wheelchair,
my missing fingertips,all the physical stuff.
(16:25):
It's, it's what you can't see.
And, um, that, that for meis, is more challenging.
So not understanding
that early on I just thought I could
go back to an advertising.
I just need to start working same hours,
8:00 AM till 9:00 PM crazy, crazy hours.
And even though thosesorts of hours, I love
(16:48):
that adrenaline rush.
It definitely was notcompatible with my new life.
- Yes. And, and havingto deal with the tangible
and the intangible or the visible
and the invisible, um, you know, to,
to be balancing all of that at once.
Had you previously,
because you know, youdid at one point want
(17:10):
to make walking a goal.
Um, had you interacted with a lot
of people in a wheelchair previously?
- Yes and no. Like, I wentright through through school
with kids in a wheelchairand with other disabilities,
but not, not an awful lot.
(17:31):
A lot of what I knew,even though I had friends
and family with disabilities, a lot of
what I knew about disabilitywas fed to me through,
through media and popculture and things like that.
So that's another reason why I do so much
of the work I do today,
because I knew that Icouldn't change anything
about my disabilities.
They were all permanent,but what I could do was help
(17:53):
to change the way we werebeing represented in some
of the world's most powerful
and influential industriesthat were telling me
and people like me thatwe were, we were worthless
or less than or shouldn't be employed
because we're all incapable
and just those really harmful stereotypes.
(18:13):
So I never ever want anyone
to feel like I did 20years ago in hospital
and every year thousands of people
of millions are requiring disabilities
and parents are being toldyour child has been a will be
born with a disabilityand getting diagnoses.
I never want anyone to, to feel that way
that our life is life's pretty shit now
(18:34):
that I've got disabilities
because it's not, it doesn't have to be.
- And so do you find in the past 20 years
as you've been in a wheelchair that
the world is more accommodating?
Um, 'cause you've talkedabout travel, um,
or, um, has everything kindof been sort of status quo?
(18:57):
- I think it has improved a lot now.
It has improved a little bit.
Um, I'm thinking back tomaybe 15 odd years ago,
I started my businessand was talking, engaging
with businesses about including diversity,
including disability
and being, you know, better,better representing us
and just got some raised eyebrows
(19:19):
and like, oh, why would we do that?
That's not worth our time.
But now to see airlines, um,
I suppose having diversity
and inclusion people on the staff
who are their specific job is to look
after individuals like myself,not that I need looking
after, but specifically there to,
(19:43):
to address travel needs, um,for people with disabilities.
There's more and moreawareness about the value
of the disabled consumerand the disabled traveler.
Um, I dunno the exact stat Iknow people who do though,
and as struggles as consumers, we,
we spend money on, onairfares, clothes, all,
(20:06):
all of those sorts of things.
So that dollar value wasn'tthere 20 odd years ago
and certainly wasn't being talked about.
There was no social media as well.
But these days that informationis shared a lot there
reports and, and things like that.
Going into these things whichweren't previously happening,
(20:26):
you know, the value of thedisabled traveler, for example,
the dollar value, I thinkthat's making this change,
that tune a little bit could
because they can, they can see our worth
and sure it shouldn't have taken a report
and a dollar value for them to do that,
but hey, it's happening,so we'll do what we
can.
(20:47):
- Right. And so where are you traveling to?
Like, what are you getting upto outside of your home base?
- So next week I'm down in Sydney.
There's a, um, really exciting
employment seminar happening down there.
Bus Stop Films is aorganization here in Australia.
(21:08):
They're brilliant and they train
and educate people with disabilities
to work behind the camera.
Um, also, um, acting as well,
but really interested in that, um,
inclusive filmmaking spaceand inclusive advertising and,
and all of those sorts of things.
So they're holding a employmentsummit down in Sydney
(21:31):
and I'm, I'm going down to that, to,
to moderate a panel aboutadvertising, inclusive advertising
with industry professionalsand people with disabilities,
and then get to get to Melbourne a bit
as well in, in Australia.
But we love different places overseas,
but of course everything comesdown to what is accessible
(21:52):
and, and what's not.
So I've been to Fiji a few times, um,
because part of the family's there,
but unfortunately it's,it's really not accessible,
so I don't, don't leave the hotel much.
- And so, you know, inyour travels, you know,
the first one you mentionedwas this, this job
(22:14):
related, um, position.
Did you always imagine that youwould end up in advertising?
Like was that always the main goal?
- Yeah, sorry. I neverguess I'd be doing, uh,
being an inclusive advertising consultant,
but I always, um,
(22:37):
always really loved advertising.
But going back to, I'm not surehow it works over your side
of the world, but whenyou're in, in high school,
you pick all your subjectsin for your senior,
for your senior year levels.
And I wanted to be an occupationaltherapist desperately.
And so I studied science andpicked on my science subjects
and really didn't enjoy any of them .
(23:02):
Um, and did my workexperience at a hospital
where I was later apatient for, for the year.
Um, but yeah, obviously didn't become
an operational therapist.
And then in my final semesters at school,
did this course in advertisingand creating a campaign
and like, wow, what is this?
(23:24):
This is awesome. And thenfell into to advertising
and didn't look back until obviously
2005 when everything happened.
I was like, I, I love this job.
I can't do it in the same way,
but I still want to be involved.
So rather than work in theagencies, I'll consult to them,
(23:44):
um, as a, as a way tostay involved, I guess.
- And do you think, you know,long term you'll continue
to stay as a consultant
or you might end up atsome point back kind
of in the agencies?
- I don't think I'll endup back in the agencies.
(24:04):
I think I'll always be doingsomething that's a little bit
creative slash social justice,
and that's what I loveabout what I'm doing now.
It's where creativity means social justice
and it's, um, a bit of a blend.
But I've always said that I hope not
to be a disability consultant.
I I want to be retired
because it would be greatif everyone just knew
(24:27):
that they have to include disability.
They don't need someone
to just show them exactly how to do it.
But we're in such anevolutionary stage at the moment,
I suppose that, um, it's,it's kind of necessary.
- Mm-hmm, right, like now is the time.
Ideally, you know, yourposition wouldn't be needed,
(24:48):
but here we are.
Um. - Yeah. - Now, was socialjustice a part of your life
before the injury
or did that kind of comewith advocating for yourself?
- It had always been partof my pre-disability life,
(25:08):
but I suppose growing uppre-disability, I'd just been a,
a feisty little feminist,um, arguing for, you know,
women's rights and the inclusionof women in advertising
and things like that becauseI had no lived experience
and I was an ally for disability,
but didn't, wasn't the theoutspoken advocate that I am now.
(25:31):
- And do you find thatthere are more advocates in
advertising than there was 20 years ago?
Whether for disability,whether for women's rights
or like kind of what is the vibe?
Um, for inclusivity in advertising?
(25:51):
- I'm seeing a lot more, um,
whether it's individuals
or organizations, therearen't stereotype lines,
which is part of Huan women,um, that's one organization.
They have a base here in Australia,
they're doing representation,whether it's uh, gender,
ethnicity, um, disability, that sort
(26:15):
of thing across advertising.
But I love their work andthey went around 20 years ago
and there's lots ofother organizations, um,
one based here in MelbourneMavens who work specifically
around representations, genderinclusion, uh, gender equity
and those sorts of thingsin, in advertising.
So I'm really happy to see them popping up
(26:37):
and would love to see more,
but also back to back to myself, I have,
I wish they didn't existand didn't have to exist,
but at the moment they do andit's wonderful that they do.
- And do you think, youknow, as ideally the
advertising industrybecomes more inclusive, um,
(26:58):
would you see yourself kind of staying in
advertising in a different facet
or kind of staying on thesocial justice movement
before the ideal of retirement?
- That's a really good question
that I don't have goodanswer to and I only say that
(27:22):
because any, anything is really possible
and I, I'm doing my PhD at the moment
and who knows what area I'm going
to go in after that.
Um, I really enjoy socialjustice and creativity.
Um, a combination of them both.
(27:43):
I think just, just one, um,
dunno if I'd enjoy, enjoy nearly as much,
but I, I just have learnedfrom, from everything
that anything can happen.
So honestly, who knows .
- And what are you getting your PhD in?
(28:03):
- That'll be in, uh,disability, employment
and how representation inadvertising of disability,
the correct representationaffects our employment outcomes
and other social outcomes.
- And what is your PhD experience like?
Is it very rigorous?
(28:25):
Is it something that'sgonna take many, many years?
What is, um, kind of likethe background that got you
into the levels to be able toget a PhD and how is it going?
- It is going well so far
and I certainly hope itdoesn't take many, many years
because , um, I enjoy the, um,
(28:48):
the research process
because I did a, um, aresearch proposal last year
and that's having, having those boundaries
and that structure andthat, that really worked me
and I really enjoyed it.
So it's, it's a bit of a slog.
So, which, which this space ask me in a couple of years
(29:09):
that I, I may just be defeated.
- Yes.
But I mean, you know, aPhD, you're doing research,
you'll figure out your thesis.
Um, so, uh, I'm sure alot of good work to come.
- I hope so.- And what sort of pre PhD,
(29:31):
um, accreditations do you have?
- I have, I hold two degreesin business communications
and media.
So that was, that was a little while ago,
but I, I did those prior to my PhD.
- And what got you kindof at, to the point of
(29:55):
I think I'm gonna go formy PhD since there was
a little bit of a gap?
- Wanting, wanting a newchallenge, I suppose.
And that's, that's definitely,
that's definitely tick that off the list.
definitely challenging,
but, um, I've spent, I'vebeen spending, uh, time
(30:16):
in academia and doing, being involved
with different projects and,and those sorts of things.
So I wanted a challenge for myself,
but I also wanted, um,
to create change.
There's, there's thingsthat need to happen
around advertising representation.
There's, there's currentlyno, no research for that
(30:40):
and everything's so well, ifno one else is gonna do it,
I'll, I'll put my handup and see how I go.
But it's, it's still,it's still early days ,
so watch this space.
- Yeah. Still, still lots to get done.
Um, what do you thinkis the biggest change
that is needed in media when it comes
to inclusive representation?
(31:04):
- Oh, big question. There'sso much that needs to change,
but in, in my experience, it's
visibility By visibility that doesn't mean
what heterosexual guys inwheelchairs on the tv, it can be,
um, how we talk about disability,you know, in a news story
(31:24):
or the headline or something like that.
It doesn't have to be what you can see.
Um, but also including us, not just, um,
if, if media is writinga story about the budget,
get some opinions frompeople's disabilities, we,
we too have opinions about climate change
and fashion, , you name it, we we do,
(31:47):
but unfortunately we only,
we only get those opinionsif it's about wheelchairs or,
or something NHS
or whatever, whatever it ison your side of the world.
Um, there's, there's so muchmedia that that can include,
include disability,
but it does start withthat appropriate visibility
(32:08):
that's authentic and consistent.
- And is there an example of an agency
or a specific part of media
that you think is doing a really good job
of showcasing inclusivity?
- I know Channel nine herein Australia is something
(32:28):
recently with the Paralympic Games,
and there's something that I'mreally, really excited about.
It's not my, not mine at all,
but I wanna show up theworld because it's wonderful.
It's called Inclusively Made
and, um, I don't know if you're familiar
with the Heart Foundationhere in Australia.
(32:48):
Food. Okay. Food thatpassed a certain criteria,
got a little logo on theHeart Foundation tick,
and it's basically that, butfor, for media and advertising
and things like that, if, uh,a, a film and advertisement
or something is inclusivelymade, so it has involvement
of people with disabilities in front of
(33:11):
or behind the camera or both.
It passes the accreditationto be inclusively made
and it's only really, really recent here.
And Bus stop films is behind that as well.
But the channel Channel nine, uh,
ran the Paralympics over here
and they, they did a whole lotto ensure that it wasn't just
(33:32):
Paralympics on the Paralympianson the screen for a couple
of weeks and then nothing more.
They, um, ensured that there was,
the production crew had disabilities
and there was all sorts of inclusion
of disability in frontof and behind the camera.
So they, they did a really good job.
They've been doing a, an okayjob for a couple of years now.
(33:56):
ABC here in Australiaalso do a pretty good job
with onscreen representation.
Um, they have a sportsreporter who just happens
to be in a wheelchair, hi Charles Bryce.
Um, and there's a, a fewother people who Nas Campanella
who just happens to be vision impaired.
So it's, it's really, really great
to see those sorts of things.
(34:18):
There's still a long way to go though.
- Of course.
Were you kind of aware of disability being
visible, um, before your disability
or was it more of somethingthat you became hyper aware
of once you were moreingrained into the community?
(34:39):
- I was aware of it, but I'vecertainly become hyper aware,
aware of it now, but I was aware of it,
but I was also aware that the, um,
the way we were beingrepresented was shit house.
And I know that because whenI was first told I was going
to be physically disabled,being in a wheelchair for life,
be vision impaired, all thesethings, I was terrified
(35:03):
because like, oh, disability means this.
And I didn't realize that,that that fear was only
because I had 24 years worth
of media stereotypes in my head.
Um, and like I said before,couldn't change my disabilities,
but we can change theway we're represented so
that no one ever has to,to feel that feel that way
(35:26):
because disabilities is differentfor every single person,
but it's not just going to the Paralympics
and being a tragic misery.
They were the only two, um, stereotypes
that are really presentedto us over here in
Australian TV anyway.
So changing, changing that andsocial media has helped a lot
(35:49):
because a lot of us are now able
to create our own narratives
and produce our own content
and show our own lives,
so we're not just relying onthe gatekeepers who, you know,
decide that you, you don't fit the bill,
you don't look a certain way
or you don't talk a certainway or act a certain way.
No. So that's changed for sorts of,
(36:11):
um, minority groups as well.
Gender and culturally diversegroups are seeing a lot more
diversity on the screensthat now reflect society.
- Yes. Being able to, youknow, share your own narrative
and, you know, having other people out
and visible, um, with being initially
(36:33):
so terrified of life in awheelchair, how quickly,
I guess would be the right word, um, did
that perception start to change
and you were able to belike, yeah, I, I can do this.
- I think it probably atfirst year in hospital,
(36:53):
which is a blur, and then
a couple years after that Iwas still still trying to walk
and then maybe, maybethree, four years of,
there was no set point.
I know there werecertain times in hospital
that made me more comfortablewith disability generally,
(37:14):
and one of those was, um, whenthey told me my leg was going
to be amputated the firsttime I cried my eyes up,
woke up the next morning,had completely forgotten
because of my brain injury.
So they told me againseveral weeks later when my
brain's a bit more healedfrom the, from the stroke.
And this time I rememberedand I was devastated.
(37:36):
I just cried my eyes half days.
They said all the brilliantpsychologist, psychiatrists
and everyone they could findinto my room to talk with me,
but nobody, nobody could help me.
I was just a mess.
And finally my surgeonorganized a girl to come
and speak with me, andshe, I'd been told she'd,
(37:59):
she'd been through the same things
and I remember this beautiful glamazon,
walked into my room, just walked in
hair, hair, breezing.
And I thought, you bitch, what,
what do you know about my life?
This is what, and she sat down
and proceeded to tell me
that both her legs hadbeen amputated, one arm
(38:22):
and her fingertips as well.
She was also, um, partially blind.
And I was absolutely gob smacked.
I've got goosebumps nowtelling, telling you this.
Her name was Phoebe and Phoebe absolutely
changed my world.
She told me how she'd beento London, was studying,
(38:42):
had met this guy,
and like, what, this, thisis not what I, what I knew
that disability was meant.
And so that was a turning point for me.
I'm like, no, life canactually look pretty okay
with disabilities.
Um, and Phoebe, obviouslyhad two prosthetic legs and,
(39:03):
and things like that, butthat was a huge turning point
for me and that's anotherreason why I do share
my story when I can about,I, I don't wanna paint it
as just sunshine and roses,
but life can be manageable and Okay.
Um, with the disability
because I, I know that the value of
(39:26):
of people showing their stories with me.
- Yes. Have you had a momentlike that for you where,
um, you've, you know,connected with someone in
the kind of like pre stageswhen they're in the hospital
or just kind of learning
of this is the futurethat my life will be?
(39:46):
- I
have had a few, I
before I did a lot withdisability advocacy,
I did a lot more workwith, um, body confidence
and body image because I knew
that I couldn't getstraight out of hospital
and become a disability advocate overnight
and start speaking about it.
(40:08):
And, um, to the same extentthat I am now, I mean,
you can obviously be a, anally and do do great things,
but what I did know wasthat even though my body was
a bit messed up, so the scars
and missing pieces everywhere,
I still felt generally okay with it.
(40:28):
And I wish the, the17-year-old version of me or,
or something had had known, hadknown those sorts of things.
I'm like, I'll go and speakto, to young teenagers, um,
about body image and body confidence
because they've got media
and all of these, you know,images coming to 'em about this,
(40:50):
how you should look, this is
how you should and that's bullshit.
Um, because having worked in media,
I knew all the effort wewent to behind the scenes
to Photoshop things and,and do stuff like that.
So I'll just go and talk to'em about that sort of, again,
combining my media backgroundand my lived experience,
but in a different perspective
(41:11):
or from a different perspective.
So, and I had a lot ofyoung people come up
to me afterwards andsay, thank you so much.
You've, you know, really changedmy perspective on things.
And so that, that's alwaysreally nice to hear.
But I wanted to do more thanjust change, change the minds
(41:32):
and the perspectives of, ofteenagers I like, we can work
with this is thegovernment and the industry
and change their minds too.
- Yeah, but it sounds likeit was a good place to start,
a good place to kind of like dip your toes
and more full-time advocacy outside
of being full-time inan advertising agency.
(41:53):
Um, and now you're, uh, in a place
of like just talking to more people and,
and getting through to,um, larger institutions.
- Yeah, I suppose that's,they're the ones who can,
who can really shift theneedle and create change.
So that's, um, that's become a bit, bit
(42:17):
of a plan is to, is to workwith them more at the moment.
- Yeah. Now
before I start to wrap thingsup, I wanna give you a chance
to kind of share anythingwith the listeners
that I haven't prompted you on yet.
Um, whether it's kind ofabout work, personal, um,
anything you at this pointthat you would like to share
(42:37):
and make sure people hear.
- If, if you do have a, anewly acquired disability.
I, um, don't, don't be afraid
to, to do things, to do things your way,
whatever, whatever feels right for you.
I know I, I wanted to getinto disability advocacy,
(42:59):
but had, uh, was told there's only one way
to be disability advocate.
You have to sound like this. Write
like this, do it this way.
And I was really terrifiedof challenging that
and not, not doing it that way,
but now, now it's all I do
(43:21):
and I I really love it thatI was, I was true to myself
and didn't try and fitinto someone else's box of
how a disability advocate should look.
- Great. It's good tohear how, you know, you,
you loved your former career
and now you love what you'redoing even though, you know,
this wasn't originally the path.
Um, but you've like founda place in, in working.
(43:46):
- Yeah, I really do enjoy of work.
- Great. Now, at theend of all my episodes,
I do ask my guests a random question.
So my question for you today is,
what is your favorite Disney
or just general cartoon character?
- Disney needs to do a lot of work
with their representation, but we'll,
(44:07):
we'll just park that for a moment. ,
um, I don't
watch an awful, an awful lot of Disney,
but I suppose Cinderella is
the, the first one that comes to mind.
(44:28):
And I, I don't, I dunnoif I have a favorite one
because I'm so, I'm so annoyed
with Disney for whatthey're doing at the moment
and not, not including disability,
but like heaps of heaps ofcharacters come to mind.
Um, even the, the way the,
(44:53):
the Prince rides in,
and that's a, that's afeminist issue as well,
but that's, it's alsowrong, but I I can't help
but think how, how wrong Disney is.
But yeah, Cinderellais a little bit quirky.
I know because of my brain injury.
I can't remember what myhusband said 20 minutes ago,
(45:14):
but I can still remember all the words.
Roald Dahls, um, the Cinderella,
I guess you think you know this
story, you don't know the rules.
That's like 30 years ago . Ican, I can still remember that.
(45:34):
- All right, that bringsthis episode to a close.
So of course if you wouldlike to connect with Lisa,
her website along with a couplesocial medias will be in the
description, LinkedIn and Instagram.
She is most, um, vocal
and on Instagram, so feel freeto go check her out there.
If you'd like to connect with the podcast.
Our website is in the description as well.
(45:55):
It brings you to our social media
as we are on Instagram,LinkedIn and Facebook.
If you'd like to go follow those pages,
that support is always appreciated.
The website of course, brings you to all
of our past episodes, so feel free
to go find other storiessimilar to Lisa's.
Um, and if you would like to be a guest
and share your story, myemail is in the description.
(46:15):
That is always the bestway to reach out to me.
And if you'd like to supportthe podcast monetarily,
there is a link to do that as well.
So thank you so much, Lisa,for spending time with me today
and to my listenersfor taking the time out
of your day to hear a new story.
Until next time, bye.
- Thanks, Sarah, reallyenjoyed speaking with you. Bye.
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