August 24, 2023 • 35 mins
Get ready to discover how Igor Meystelman, a family law attorney turned relationship coach, has harnessed the power of deep and meaningful conversations to strengthen his own relationship, as well as hundreds of others. Igor's unique career trajectory has equipped him with insights that we can't wait to share with you.
As we journey through Igor's life, we learn how attending couples therapy opened himself up to a deeper relationship with not only his wife, but also himself. Igor's candid sharing about the challenges and joys of this transition will leave you with a renewed perspective on what it means to sincerely communicate with the ones we love.
To check out Igor's relationship coaching: https://www.relationshipreimagined.com/
For Igor's very own podcast: https://www.relationshipreimagined.com/podcast
For Igor's Law practice: https://theimlawgroup.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's what makes our podcastinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
All right, off we go.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Our conversation with our guest Igor Meisleman was so
engaging that it actually wentlonger than we had expected, so
we decided to break this episodeup into two parts.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
If, in the future, you prefer that we keep this as
one long interview, please letus know by sending us an email
to intuitivechoicespodcastcom.
Thanks, hi everybody.
Today, kim and I are veryexcited to speak with our guest,
igor Meisleman.
In 2009, after graduating lawschool from Hofstra University
(01:10):
School of Law, igor beganpracticing law, as you might
expect.
What you might not expect isthat, after several years of
practicing family law, igor thenbegan a new career as an Amago
relationship coach, havingworked on both sides of the
aisle, so to speak, that beinghelping couples safely
transition out of theirrelationship and, on the other
hand, strengthen theirrelationship.
Igor has such fantastic insightfor all of us on how to improve
(01:32):
our relationship if we're inone, or how to strive for a
thriving relationship if we'dlike one.
So, without further ado, herewe go.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Hey Igor.
Well, first of all, welcome,we're really thankful to have
you.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
We really appreciate it.
This is really awesome to getto talk to you, especially with
your background.
So can you just tell us firstwhat do you do for a living?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Oh man.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
That's a loaded question.
You're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
That's going to start with the easy ones.
So I am on a dual track ofbeing a divorce attorney, family
law attorney and also in themidst of career transitions into
marriage and family therapy,slash relationship coach.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
It sounds like a great catch line, frankly.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Really, what do you?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I just think it.
I let you know.
I told my mom this morning as Iwas handing her my son on the
way to work.
I said, oh, today we'rerecording a great podcast with a
family law attorney turned likemarriage counselor, a therapist
, and she goes wow, that's sointeresting.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
So you should know that usually that is the
reaction people have.
For a while I was kind of leftpondering what is that reaction
all about?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
And just kind of over time.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
After it just happened frequently enough, I
started asking people can youtell me, what about that catches
your attention?
And the typical feedback Iwould get would be things like
well, if you got to see whatgoes on in the emergency room,
like you must know everything,in the sense of there's nothing
that's going to surprise you.
You've seen what the end ofthese stories look like, so you
(03:18):
probably have a good grasp onyou know human conflict, human
tension, how to intervene atdifferent stages and try to give
help to hemorrhagingrelationship.
I actually found it veryinspiring and gave me a lot of
sort of courage and strength tosay, hey, you know, maybe I
(03:39):
could leverage the skills in oneinto the other one.
And I definitely don't shy awayanymore from mentioning when I
meet with new couples or couplesthat are going through a really
hard time.
It looks like things might windup in divorce.
So I want you to know that I'veseen everything.
Nothing going to tell me isgoing to be shocking in this
room.
And now it's just a matter ofare we willing to have a really
(04:01):
open conversation, authenticencounter with each other to
understand can this reallyshould be salvaged or not?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
That's a really great point to highlight that.
You know, I think we see, kimand I see with our clients like
someone who's new to therapy ingeneral.
They're like not there's askill that is there to be built
of, like really facing thethings you're scared of and also
then revealing them to anotherperson.
And I think it does help oftento tell the client that, like
(04:32):
you know, I'm here for you tolisten and I don't want you to
think like you're hurting me orshock me by what you're about to
say, and I really am there tobe with you.
And it's so valid and I think Iassume for many of your clients
on the therapy side that youknow you're kind of switching
and playing for the other team,it seems, and you know, I think
(04:55):
that's a unifying experience.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So the feedback you got from, from all of these this
like qualitative data that youreceive from people when they'd
have that strong reaction sortof help shape your perspective
on making that transition.
But can you tell us a littlebit more of what motivated you
to make that transition in thefirst place from family law to
(05:22):
relationship coaching?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah, absolutely, and this really would take us back
into another dimension of my ownlife, which is my own marriage.
About seven years into mymarriage, I'm actually just
celebrated my wife.
I celebrated 16th anniversarythis past Friday and thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Thank you, how timely , yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
And about seven years into our marriage I was well
into my work career actually wasnow about three years into my
own law firm that I started,very exciting kind of you know.
Everything was sort of on thehorizon, going in the right
direction.
And one day my wife just saidto me you know, I'm tired of
kind of going on the same dates.
We always do you know either,going out to eat or we're going
(06:08):
to watch a show and I would loveto do something different.
I said, okay, what do you havein mind?
And she said I'd like to go toa couples therapist.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
If my wife said that to me, I think my heart was flat
per second.
So were you laughing like that?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I was not laughing like that, what you just
described.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, what was your candid?
What was your candid response?
What she suggested was exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Jacob say I froze.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
I stared at her and I said the following sentence is
something wrong.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, logical that's right.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
And she said to me no , I just want to do something
different.
I had this idea.
Would you be open to it?
Lucky for her, I was always astudent of self development
personal development it's just atopic that always speaks spoke
to me and I said you know what?
Why not?
We can go try it out.
And that's exactly what we did.
And, on the knowns to me, shetook me to somebody who
(07:15):
specialized in a modality calledImago relationship therapy and
we did a session and by the endof the session I was blown away
by the experience and I know I'mgonna.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I just want to stop you there because I want to get
further into into that in acouple of minutes.
But can we back up first of all, what's your, what?
What's your?
Do you mind with your wife'sname?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Lyora.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Lyora.
How did that idea even come toher?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Do you or?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, and I can tell you.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
What was interesting is that in her circle of friends
she has like a WhatsApp groupwith a bunch of her like a high
school alumni friends and in hercircle of friends there was a
number of girls who got divorcedand one of them was mentioning
like just in passing, I guess intheir chats she's going to the
therapist she's really happywith and I was like you know.
(08:10):
I feel a bit burnout.
We just had our third child.
She was wondering if she'shaving some postpartum stuff
going on, and then she's likeyou know, why don't they go
alone?
You should go with me and I waslike I don't mind, you're my
wife of course.
I'm not happy to be here foryou.
I know you'll be here for meand I just got the chills.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
That's so much self awareness on so much a lot of
preemptive works there 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
That's why I wanted to know, because I think that,
like I've heard this so manytimes in my career, well, isn't
couples therapy like whererelationships go to die?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, I'm sure you can speak to this more, but I
think one of my professors in mymaster's program said this, or
maybe I heard it later, butsomething along the lines like
people go to couples therapy sixyears too late.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, same concept.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
That speaks very much to me, and I dare say that
we're the couple that was beforethose six years expired.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And this is what I say to clients all the time,
like when I say, hey, why don'tyou?
You know they might be sixmonths into a relationship, even
nine months in I always say, goright, there's nothing, you
know it is.
It's such a growth inducingexperience to go to a couple of
therapies.
So that is, that is so cool,all right, so, so so she the
(09:31):
amago relationship therapy.
So you landed on this how Ithink you mentioned.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, so we, so we go there.
So she invited me.
We had a great time and then Isaid at the end of the session I
would like to come back.
I told my wife I really likethis experience.
It's what did you like about it?
It's it the first thing thatjumped out of me and I think
it's the thing that has stayedtill this day.
And this is, for me, why I feel.
(09:59):
I feel so passionate myselfabout the work I now do as an
amago therapist is that, unlikemany other modalities, we were
speaking to each other.
She had us turn the chairs awayfrom her meeting, her, the
therapist, and we faced eachother and then the therapist
facilitated, but we did most ofthe talking to each other and
(10:22):
all of a sudden, as we werespeaking, I felt that something
was deepening in our interaction, like we moved from the casual
you drive the car pole, I'll goshopping, did you pick up this
item?
I'll go drop this off and like,for 45 minutes I was removed
(10:43):
from my transactional existencewith my wife to a deeply
meaningful connection and I waslike whoa, I feel like we're
dating again and there's so manythings I don't yet know about
you the way I would like to, andthat was seven years in seven
years in Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And kids and we just had our third child and we're.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
We're like it would be typical family, totally
consumed by our life, withlittle, three little kids Plus.
You know I was averaging 12 to16 hour workdays.
It was.
It was just, you know, madnesson steroids and all of a sudden
to have this 45 minute up closeand personal moment of whoa.
(11:29):
I live with someone I don'tdeeply know and it bothered me.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And it motivated you.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Then that journey to take off.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
What was her takeaway from that first session?
Very similar, yeah, verysimilar to mine.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
We both just kind of looked at each other.
We were like we want more ofthis.
We're missing these moments.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
How do you think it is that?
You know you said you werealready going on a weekly date
night and you would think, likeduring a date you would have
those moments with your wife.
So what happens in the datingprocess, where I guess the date
itself becomes more mundane?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
It's a very good point, and here I'm very happy
to be accused of being a cynicand a pessimist, but I challenge
anyone to go to a restaurant,even at this point I'm even
going to say to a bar, where Iwould feel like traditionally
it's, we grab some beers and wehave a really nice conversation.
(12:28):
I dare you to walk today to anyof these typical spheres of
sociability with your phone andtake a picture and see what's
going on.
You will see that I would.
Again.
I don't have a research data,but I would split 70, 30, 70
percent people are looking downat their devices and 30% of some
(12:50):
very superficial interactionwith the people in their
immediate surrounding.
When are we having moments ofdeep, meaningful connection?
Almost never.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think, igor, what, what you are talking
about and I think so manypeople who are gonna listen to
this episode are gonna Relate to, is that when you get to a
stage in the relationship whereyou now have a Kid or multiple
children, it it's, it's almostnon-existent the time that you
(13:26):
would have to even intentionallyhave a deep and meaningful
connection, and Even going to arestaurant it's.
It can feel like, or it can belike hey, did you pick up Johnny
from his soccer game and didyou do that?
Like?
All of it is just thesecatch-ups of and and and check
(13:48):
the checking boxes of did youaccomplish these tasks?
You know they're not reallyDeep conversations.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I'm gonna say something very Probably out of
the box and I know from manypeople, if not for most people,
this would be a very big stretchand point of discomfort which
is as follows I Barren a linefrom Dave Ramsey is a, you know,
big personality in world ofpersonal finance and he says
this line live like no one else,so you could live like no one
(14:19):
else.
And what I always found verypowerful about that line is you
know, we went to a few sessionsand I remember, just to go to
this point, that you were justsaying About six months into
this process, I look at my wifeis like I don't know how much
more we can afford this.
I, I'm really enjoying the work, but like this is a lot.
And then we attempted thefollowing we canceled the
(14:42):
session.
Then we attempted to do theImago dialogue on our own on our
living room couch as we put ourkids to sleep.
10, 5 to 10 minutes into thedialogue we were sleeping on the
couch.
And I realized I said you know,it's time to look in the mirror
phase, the honest reality whichis it is so hard to sit down at
(15:03):
the end of a work day, of afamily life and say we're gonna
somehow Generate energy to berelational and deeply connect.
And yet we would go into thatoffice.
Just the presence of that thirdperson Awakened right, the need
to, so to speak, perform, to bepresent.
And and what did we do?
(15:23):
I mentioned that quote fromDave Ramsey's because what do we
do?
I looked at my wife and I saidlook how to look at our friends.
Look at other couples.
What did they live for?
They kill themselves all yearso they could brag about the one
week they went away on vacation.
And you know we can do, we'regonna trade in those moments of
once a year for every week ofconsistent commitment to our
(15:47):
marriage and, wow, that journeyturned into a five-year
commitment of doing deep, veryprofound work.
And when people ask me like, soyou know how's it going with
business, professionally,savings, and I would just look
at one, say all the savings havebeen invested and the dividends
(16:07):
will come.
And the life I live today, Ican honestly say is completely a
product of that deep five-yearwork where any dollar that was
available, they didn't go to arestaurant, they didn't go to a
Broadway show, they didn't go toany other expense except deep
investment in our marriage.
(16:27):
And here I am today.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
That's incredible, and some might argue right that
that the deep investment wouldbe those excursions that's what
I'm gonna call it's the wordthat just came to me an
excursion Versus the.
You know, a therapy sessionwhere you guys are having deep
and meaningful content, dialoguewith one another, but with the
component that's missing is thedialogue.
(16:52):
Right, and this is why they sayyou know most couples.
I'm trained in emotionallyfocused therapy, so there's a
lot of like, overlap and commonprinciples and and so much of
our time in relationships isactually spent Side by side on a
couch in front of a television,but there's no dialogue.
Yeah, right, or a screen orwhatever, yeah, and, and you,
(17:15):
just, you know, you guys, bothof you, you know you just took
all of that off the table,that's right and said look the,
and you just sort of honed in on.
This is really what it is, thatthat allows us to deeply connect
.
Is that intentionalConversation?
Speaker 4 (17:33):
yeah, and you know I just want to add to that that in
the most recent book thatHarvelyn Helen Hendricks put out
the founders of a monotherapythey think it's both a model
therapy doing the work in thespace between us.
They actually alluded to thisidea we just mentioned of two
people sat on the couch and theywent even step further and they
said you know, Couples aretalking and they seem like
(17:55):
they're talking to each other,but the reality is that we're
mostly are having parallelmonologues.
Yeah, wow, love that we're notconnecting, we're not pausing to
internalize the other person'sexperience and share with them
ours.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
We'll I'm gonna be totally honest.
I got called out by this.
I got called out by this aboutmy wife this past week for
something like this Did you.
I did and she Um what she sayto you.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
My wife's a doctor.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
She works like crazy hours, she's in a third-year
residency and Because she's sotired when she gets home from
work, I took that to mean liketell her everything about my day
Because she just wants todecompress.
And then I'm so grateful shedid this, but she she literally
said to me she goes look, I lovehearing about your day, but I
really would just like if youasked me more about my day and
(18:48):
you know it's only been a week,but I'm trying to commit myself
to that, but I totally feel whatyou're saying right now.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Can we comment to that?
Yeah, I just want you to knowthat.
But the comment we guys wediscussed a little bit earlier
about the six years too late.
I just want you to know just tokind of it's important to take
pause of the big picture what Iwould say if you guys came into
me for a session and you told methis.
The first thing I would tellyou is you should appreciate
(19:14):
that your spouse felt safe toshare with you, that she has a
need which tells me yourRelationship is still in a
fairly healthy place but in itsdefault existence.
The question I would be is am Igoing to proactively,
intentionally, sprinklenutrients into this relationship
(19:36):
or, right, I wait until enough?
Toxicity settles inquote-unquote.
Six years later, and now we'rein the emergency room operation.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, well, you, we, igor, you know many of my
mentors and how important theythey.
You know a macho, yakuya sheeva.
I went to they really, reallyemphasize like connectivity with
your spouse and yourrelationship with your, with
your wife, and part of thereason I married my wife,
actually, because how great Ifelt that the communication was
between she and I and so I'mjust doing my best at this point
(20:09):
to really take that informationseriously.
And you know it's hard beingmarried to a to a residence are
being married to a doctor, as itis hard being married to.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
It can also be hard just to be married and listening
to the two of you have thisexchange, I'm thinking, igor,
you I loved, I mean I am gonnaborrow some of that language the
toxicity settles in.
You know, all these, thenutrients, help us, or help our
(20:41):
audience, understand a littlemore about how.
How does a person in arelationship no, what that could
look like in a relationshipthat there is maybe some of that
, some of that happening?
Right, what are some of thesigns that that's happening if
you don't have a Wife like Lioraor a wife like Danny, or you
(21:02):
know, you know that, like ourself-aware enough or tuned in
enough to be able to go hey guys, wait a second, and I'm not
saying it's only the woman tothe man, but you hear what I'm
saying.
So, like what if two people arejust not really even aware
enough that that's happening?
What would you say?
Are some of the signs, or evensymptoms that start to crop up
(21:24):
in a relationship that ouraudience can go?
Oh, hmm, yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, so you know, I'm trying to ask you percent
and I also just want tohighlight that the difficulty
that the question itself posesis the key word you said.
I'm not aware If I'm not aware.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
How am I supposed to flag the?
Speaker 4 (21:42):
problem.
So the first thing I would tellyou is, for me personally and
the work that I've done with, Idare say at this point, hundreds
of couples, is the first placeI go to litmus test Safety.
I'm gonna put it on the bigcategory.
I'm gonna call safety becausewhat I mean by that I don't mean
somebody got forbid is being,you know, physically,
(22:02):
emotionally, abused and like weneed to get authorities involved
.
I'm talking about the followingI want to tell something my
spouse, but I'm nervous abouttheir reaction and I choose not
to tell them for me, first hugered flag that if the
relationship is not a placewhere there is an area of your
(22:23):
own life that you would hesitateto share with your spouse, then
that's a first indication.
Something has either happenedin the relationship or something
is currently happening that'sdriving the hesitation or fear,
and therefore we need to nowstart asking ourselves wait,
there are other areas of my lifewhere I would not be
(22:45):
comfortable to share with myspouse.
Why would I be uncomfortable?
And if I could get just almostlike this, a little inventory or
safety inventory Going and justget an idea of what's
motivating my hesitations, Iwould use that very much as like
a first measuring tool of howhealthy or unhealthy the
(23:06):
relationship is becoming, orfluctuating between those
Dimensions.
So I would for sure startsaying that okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I would call that like a general sense of security
yeah, right, yeah, with yourpartner.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
What is what is unique about a mago therapy
itself, and how does a magotherapy help create that type of
so couples?
Speaker 4 (23:26):
make really big mistake.
When couples come in, what theyshare is what I would call the
content of the relationship.
I'm a Republican and she's aDemocrat, right and now we fight
over policy.
That's a content, but what I'vecome to see is that's actually
a Many skill portion of whatdrives relationships and their
(23:49):
tension.
What drives the relationshipsis how we are being relational,
rather than what we fill therelationship with.
So, in other words, if Iapproached you and I spoke to
you in a demeaning,condescending, critical, bashing
way, right, you're gonna lookat me and say I'm not okay with
(24:10):
this, or you would run away, oryou would say you know you give
some feedback that that wasprobably signal to me.
This is not appropriate.
I'm not okay with this.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Whereas if.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
I tell you.
Well, you know, I believe thatthe you know death penalty is is
a good or bad.
You're gonna look at me and say, okay, well, here's what my
reason is.
Yours, I'm not so far with ourday.
So the reality is, is that whatfuels the tension and
relationships is how we arebeing with each other, not what
we talk about with each other,but the what's, so to speak,
(24:45):
more sexy.
Those are the things thateasier to just point out.
Oh, we disagreed about, youknow, I don't know which car is
cooler, so and that's it.
We could just stop there.
But what we don't want to giveconscious awareness, to wait a
second.
You know the thing you wantedto talk about, the.
What you want to talk about isso much easier for me to hear If
you would express it in acompassionate, caring, gentle
(25:07):
tone, eye contact, safe bodylanguage.
If you gave me those things,it'd be easy for me to hear what
you want to say.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
So let's take that, let's take that couple.
That it's how we fight aboutthe finances.
Not that that's right, that'sright.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
That's funny say that because a friend of mine calls
me up from another, anothersitting in the US and says, hey,
I cannot talk to my wife aboutbudgets, like we just can't talk
about finances.
And he's like, isn't budgetlike step one of conversation
about finances?
And I immediately, caramofnis,said no, it's not.
Step one is how you talk aboutthe budget.
(25:45):
Step two is talking about thebudget, because I bet the reason
you are guys are strugglingtalking about the budget is the
way you talk about it, and ifshe doesn't feel from you that
you are here to discuss it in acollaborative, respectful,
compassionate, open-minded way,then her defense system is
(26:09):
already online in anticipationof Some tension or fight and
therefore we enter thesestalemates, points of contention
Before we even reach thesubject matter.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
So what I do with the mongo to answer that second
part, and what I love about amongo dialogue is I make them
face each other and I say canyou guys tell me a topic that
tends to become very heated oruncomfortable in your
relationship?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
They'll tell me the topic.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
And then I tell them the next hour we will not be
discussing this topic.
And they're like what?
So how are we gonna solve thisproblem?
And then I tell them we'regonna talk about how you
approach this topic, not thetopic itself because if I could
get you both to a place whereyou feel both safe, you feel
(27:01):
seen, you feel acknowledged andvalidated as to where you are.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Very often, the solution will simply surface
about the subject that's, thatsounds like, because I'm just
like envisioning it going downand you're all you don't?
I mean, and I'm like thatsounds poetic.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Just that process.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
You know, and you're laughing are you smiling?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yeah, I could feel the poetry as you describe it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Because it really.
It really really is.
You know, an EFT andemotionally focused therapy.
Um, susan Johnson calls it adance right, so it's there's a
lot of overlap right, and it'sreally all comes down to you
know, when I say to clients allthe time look, we all just want
to be seen and heard right and,and what tends to get lost in
(28:01):
translation is that that beingseen, being heard, and so when
you're talking about the how, Ilove that, because that's
something that's like a nugget,even I will be like, oh yeah,
how can I address this?
How can I communicate this?
How can I listen to this whilealso staying aware of my own
(28:25):
experience?
While I'm listening to, thisSounds like all of that is
what's happening in thisdialogue, while you are, for all
intents and purposes, coachingthem through it.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
That's right.
What I'm going to overlay intothat dance that I don't hear
discussed a lot that I find justto be very effective and very
powerful is not only telling,especially when couples begin to
work or they're wondering aboutthe work, to just tell them the
psychology of it, because Iknow that for a lot of people
(29:01):
the resistance in their ownworlds is this is going to be
fluff or this is just tootheoretical.
So one of the things I startedpivoting into is I was just
looking at my bookcase becausethere is a Harvard psychology
professor named Daniel Siegelwho has a book called
Interpersonal Neurobiology.
That's a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
He's a really great leader.
Yeah, that's right, he's aleading researcher.
But you know what?
Speaker 4 (29:25):
I'll tell you.
What's interesting is whencouples come in and we just
start having preliminaryconversations and they're like
what's?
this dialogue going to do?
Anyway, I hear what you'reselling us.
What is this going to beactually doing for us?
And when I say you know what,let's shift for a few minutes
from psychology of all of it.
I just want you to understandwhat goes on in your
neurobiology when your spouselooks at you and all of a sudden
(29:49):
you feel judged.
You feel criticism is on itsway.
You know what happens in yourworld without you thinking about
it.
Your world says, uh-oh, Ibetter point my weapons back as
well.
We're entering Cold War.
It's time for me to also beready.
You know what happens when yougo into your reptilian brain.
(30:10):
You are no longer available tobe relational.
You're not really here.
Your defense system is here.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
That is so beautiful.
I love that.
The oldest parts of the brainare the reptilian brain and in
thinking about how reptilesdon't even have families.
Reptiles do not haverelationships.
There may be a mating and eggsrelated, so on and so forth, but
reptiles don't care for theyoung.
Reptiles don't move forward.
So if these types ofinteractions force someone into
(30:46):
these core parts of the brainthat are not helping the
situation, that is a really Veryprimitive part of the brain.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, that's fantastic, and offering that
education to your couples issuch a critical piece to this
process, so that they can reallyunderstand the why.
That's right.
Why are we having this dialoguein this way?
Yeah, why is it Exactly?
Speaker 4 (31:13):
That's why, then, what I follow up with is, I say,
the structure and the frameworkthat Imago Dialogue creates is,
as you are speaking to eachother in this specific way,
which is very different from theway you normally talk, which is
part of the reason why you'rehere talking to marriage.
What the dialogue structuredoes is it walks you through a
(31:37):
more effective communication,but it also helps disarm that
parasympathetic nervous system,the existence in which I am shut
down and I can only think ofhow to protect myself rather
than how to come out of hidingand be relational again.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And to piggyback on that, because that's perfectly
said is that we all come into arelationship I call it with a
packed suitcase.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's all of your life's experiences, how you grew
up in your own family of origin, past relationships.
So all of those things are atplay as well, not just
experiences from the presentrelationship you're having, but
everything else as well.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
If I can use that as a.
I'm just going to snag thatlead and make a little segue.
Igor, I was wondering if youcould talk a little bit about
your own packed suitcase, so tospeak, if that's all right.
We spoke so much shop, so tospeak, about the therapy itself,
and I could honestly speakabout that rest of the time.
But I really like when we bringguests onto the podcast who can
(32:51):
talk about their own lives inways that help inspire our
listeners to make their ownintuitive choices they need to
make.
So can you let us know a littlebit about growing up, how you
got to college, law school whatwas that experience like?
I can't imagine after puttingso much effort into getting to
(33:12):
college and law school andsucceeding in those fields and
then having the courage toswitch to amalgotherapy.
There's a lot going on there.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
What's your marriage and family therapy right?
Absolutely To just a totallydifferent field.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
How did?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
you grow up.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Yeah, and I appreciated very much actually
when you've added that the wholesuitcase in the past, because I
was also going to write awaysaying I'll give you sort of
like very quickly, the end ofthe story and then take you back
to the beginning.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
All right everybody.
Thank you for joining us.
So much for part one of Igor'sinterview.
We can't wait to follow up withpart two next week.
In the meantime, here's alittle clip to let you know what
we have in store.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
About seven years into our marriage, I was well
into my law career.
I actually was now about threeyears into my own law firm that
I started.
It's very exciting, kind of youknow.
Everything was sort of on thehorizon, going in the right
direction, and one day my wifejust said to me you know, I'm
tired of kind of going on thesame dates.
We always do, you know, eithergoing out to eat or we're going
(34:21):
to watch a show, and I'd love todo something different.
I said okay, what do you havein mind?
She said I'd like to go to acouples therapist.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And I froze.
If my wife said that to me, Ithink my heart was flat for a
second.
So were you laughing like that?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I was not laughing like that.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
What you just described.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah.
What was your candid responsewhen she suggested I froze?
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Exactly, jacob said, I froze.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
And I said the following sentence is something
wrong.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah.
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's what makes our podcastinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
All right, off we go.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Our conversation with our guest Igor Meisleman was so
engaging that it actually wentlonger than we had expected, so
we decided to break this episodeup into two parts.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
If, in the future, you prefer that we keep this as
one long interview, please letus know by sending us an email
to intuitivechoicespodcastcom.
Thanks, hi everybody.
Today, kim and I are veryexcited to speak with our guest,
igor Meisleman.
In 2009, after graduating lawschool from Hofstra University
(01:10):
School of Law, igor beganpracticing law, as you might
expect.
What you might not expect isthat, after several years of
practicing family law, igor thenbegan a new career as an Amago
relationship coach, havingworked on both sides of the
aisle, so to speak, that beinghelping couples safely
transition out of theirrelationship and, on the other
hand, strengthen theirrelationship.
Igor has such fantastic insightfor all of us on how to improve
(01:32):
our relationship if we're inone, or how to strive for a
thriving relationship if we'dlike one.
So, without further ado, herewe go.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Hey Igor.
Well, first of all, welcome,we're really thankful to have
you.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
We really appreciate it.
This is really awesome to getto talk to you, especially with
your background.
So can you just tell us firstwhat do you do for a living?
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Oh man.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
That's a loaded question.
You're welcome, yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
That's going to start with the easy ones.
So I am on a dual track ofbeing a divorce attorney, family
law attorney and also in themidst of career transitions into
marriage and family therapy,slash relationship coach.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
It sounds like a great catch line, frankly.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Really, what do you?
Speaker 3 (02:23):
I just think it.
I let you know.
I told my mom this morning as Iwas handing her my son on the
way to work.
I said, oh, today we'rerecording a great podcast with a
family law attorney turned likemarriage counselor, a therapist
, and she goes wow, that's sointeresting.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
So you should know that usually that is the
reaction people have.
For a while I was kind of leftpondering what is that reaction
all about?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
And just kind of over time.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
After it just happened frequently enough, I
started asking people can youtell me, what about that catches
your attention?
And the typical feedback Iwould get would be things like
well, if you got to see whatgoes on in the emergency room,
like you must know everything,in the sense of there's nothing
that's going to surprise you.
You've seen what the end ofthese stories look like, so you
(03:18):
probably have a good grasp onyou know human conflict, human
tension, how to intervene atdifferent stages and try to give
help to hemorrhagingrelationship.
I actually found it veryinspiring and gave me a lot of
sort of courage and strength tosay, hey, you know, maybe I
(03:39):
could leverage the skills in oneinto the other one.
And I definitely don't shy awayanymore from mentioning when I
meet with new couples or couplesthat are going through a really
hard time.
It looks like things might windup in divorce.
So I want you to know that I'veseen everything.
Nothing going to tell me isgoing to be shocking in this
room.
And now it's just a matter ofare we willing to have a really
(04:01):
open conversation, authenticencounter with each other to
understand can this reallyshould be salvaged or not?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
That's a really great point to highlight that.
You know, I think we see, kimand I see with our clients like
someone who's new to therapy ingeneral.
They're like not there's askill that is there to be built
of, like really facing thethings you're scared of and also
then revealing them to anotherperson.
And I think it does help oftento tell the client that, like
(04:32):
you know, I'm here for you tolisten and I don't want you to
think like you're hurting me orshock me by what you're about to
say, and I really am there tobe with you.
And it's so valid and I think Iassume for many of your clients
on the therapy side that youknow you're kind of switching
and playing for the other team,it seems, and you know, I think
(04:55):
that's a unifying experience.
Speaker 4 (04:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
So the feedback you got from, from all of these this
like qualitative data that youreceive from people when they'd
have that strong reaction sortof help shape your perspective
on making that transition.
But can you tell us a littlebit more of what motivated you
to make that transition in thefirst place from family law to
(05:22):
relationship coaching?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Yeah, absolutely, and this really would take us back
into another dimension of my ownlife, which is my own marriage.
About seven years into mymarriage, I'm actually just
celebrated my wife.
I celebrated 16th anniversarythis past Friday and thank you.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Thank you, how timely , yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
And about seven years into our marriage I was well
into my work career actually wasnow about three years into my
own law firm that I started,very exciting kind of you know.
Everything was sort of on thehorizon, going in the right
direction.
And one day my wife just saidto me you know, I'm tired of
kind of going on the same dates.
We always do you know either,going out to eat or we're going
(06:08):
to watch a show and I would loveto do something different.
I said, okay, what do you havein mind?
And she said I'd like to go toa couples therapist.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
If my wife said that to me, I think my heart was flat
per second.
So were you laughing like that?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I was not laughing like that, what you just
described.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, what was your candid?
What was your candid response?
What she suggested was exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Jacob say I froze.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
I stared at her and I said the following sentence is
something wrong.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, logical that's right.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
And she said to me no , I just want to do something
different.
I had this idea.
Would you be open to it?
Lucky for her, I was always astudent of self development
personal development it's just atopic that always speaks spoke
to me and I said you know what?
Why not?
We can go try it out.
And that's exactly what we did.
And, on the knowns to me, shetook me to somebody who
(07:15):
specialized in a modality calledImago relationship therapy and
we did a session and by the endof the session I was blown away
by the experience and I know I'mgonna.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
I just want to stop you there because I want to get
further into into that in acouple of minutes.
But can we back up first of all, what's your, what?
What's your?
Do you mind with your wife'sname?
Speaker 4 (07:35):
Lyora.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Lyora.
How did that idea even come toher?
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Do you or?
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, and I can tell you.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
What was interesting is that in her circle of friends
she has like a WhatsApp groupwith a bunch of her like a high
school alumni friends and in hercircle of friends there was a
number of girls who got divorcedand one of them was mentioning
like just in passing, I guess intheir chats she's going to the
therapist she's really happywith and I was like you know.
(08:10):
I feel a bit burnout.
We just had our third child.
She was wondering if she'shaving some postpartum stuff
going on, and then she's likeyou know, why don't they go
alone?
You should go with me and I waslike I don't mind, you're my
wife of course.
I'm not happy to be here foryou.
I know you'll be here for meand I just got the chills.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
That's so much self awareness on so much a lot of
preemptive works there 100%.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
That's why I wanted to know, because I think that,
like I've heard this so manytimes in my career, well, isn't
couples therapy like whererelationships go to die?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, I'm sure you can speak to this more, but I
think one of my professors in mymaster's program said this, or
maybe I heard it later, butsomething along the lines like
people go to couples therapy sixyears too late.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Yeah, same concept.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
That speaks very much to me, and I dare say that
we're the couple that was beforethose six years expired.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And this is what I say to clients all the time,
like when I say, hey, why don'tyou?
You know they might be sixmonths into a relationship, even
nine months in I always say, goright, there's nothing, you
know it is.
It's such a growth inducingexperience to go to a couple of
therapies.
So that is, that is so cool,all right, so, so so she the
(09:31):
amago relationship therapy.
So you landed on this how Ithink you mentioned.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, so we, so we go there.
So she invited me.
We had a great time and then Isaid at the end of the session I
would like to come back.
I told my wife I really likethis experience.
It's what did you like about it?
It's it the first thing thatjumped out of me and I think
it's the thing that has stayedtill this day.
And this is, for me, why I feel.
(09:59):
I feel so passionate myselfabout the work I now do as an
amago therapist is that, unlikemany other modalities, we were
speaking to each other.
She had us turn the chairs awayfrom her meeting, her, the
therapist, and we faced eachother and then the therapist
facilitated, but we did most ofthe talking to each other and
(10:22):
all of a sudden, as we werespeaking, I felt that something
was deepening in our interaction, like we moved from the casual
you drive the car pole, I'll goshopping, did you pick up this
item?
I'll go drop this off and like,for 45 minutes I was removed
(10:43):
from my transactional existencewith my wife to a deeply
meaningful connection and I waslike whoa, I feel like we're
dating again and there's so manythings I don't yet know about
you the way I would like to, andthat was seven years in seven
years in Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
And kids and we just had our third child and we're.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
We're like it would be typical family, totally
consumed by our life, withlittle, three little kids Plus.
You know I was averaging 12 to16 hour workdays.
It was.
It was just, you know, madnesson steroids and all of a sudden
to have this 45 minute up closeand personal moment of whoa.
(11:29):
I live with someone I don'tdeeply know and it bothered me.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And it motivated you.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Then that journey to take off.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
What was her takeaway from that first session?
Very similar, yeah, verysimilar to mine.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
We both just kind of looked at each other.
We were like we want more ofthis.
We're missing these moments.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
How do you think it is that?
You know you said you werealready going on a weekly date
night and you would think, likeduring a date you would have
those moments with your wife.
So what happens in the datingprocess, where I guess the date
itself becomes more mundane?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
It's a very good point, and here I'm very happy
to be accused of being a cynicand a pessimist, but I challenge
anyone to go to a restaurant,even at this point I'm even
going to say to a bar, where Iwould feel like traditionally
it's, we grab some beers and wehave a really nice conversation.
(12:28):
I dare you to walk today to anyof these typical spheres of
sociability with your phone andtake a picture and see what's
going on.
You will see that I would.
Again.
I don't have a research data,but I would split 70, 30, 70
percent people are looking downat their devices and 30% of some
(12:50):
very superficial interactionwith the people in their
immediate surrounding.
When are we having moments ofdeep, meaningful connection?
Almost never.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think, igor, what, what you are talking
about and I think so manypeople who are gonna listen to
this episode are gonna Relate to, is that when you get to a
stage in the relationship whereyou now have a Kid or multiple
children, it it's, it's almostnon-existent the time that you
(13:26):
would have to even intentionallyhave a deep and meaningful
connection, and Even going to arestaurant it's.
It can feel like, or it can belike hey, did you pick up Johnny
from his soccer game and didyou do that?
Like?
All of it is just thesecatch-ups of and and and check
(13:48):
the checking boxes of did youaccomplish these tasks?
You know they're not reallyDeep conversations.
Speaker 4 (13:55):
I'm gonna say something very Probably out of
the box and I know from manypeople, if not for most people,
this would be a very big stretchand point of discomfort which
is as follows I Barren a linefrom Dave Ramsey is a, you know,
big personality in world ofpersonal finance and he says
this line live like no one else,so you could live like no one
(14:19):
else.
And what I always found verypowerful about that line is you
know, we went to a few sessionsand I remember, just to go to
this point, that you were justsaying About six months into
this process, I look at my wifeis like I don't know how much
more we can afford this.
I, I'm really enjoying the work, but like this is a lot.
And then we attempted thefollowing we canceled the
(14:42):
session.
Then we attempted to do theImago dialogue on our own on our
living room couch as we put ourkids to sleep.
10, 5 to 10 minutes into thedialogue we were sleeping on the
couch.
And I realized I said you know,it's time to look in the mirror
phase, the honest reality whichis it is so hard to sit down at
(15:03):
the end of a work day, of afamily life and say we're gonna
somehow Generate energy to berelational and deeply connect.
And yet we would go into thatoffice.
Just the presence of that thirdperson Awakened right, the need
to, so to speak, perform, to bepresent.
And and what did we do?
(15:23):
I mentioned that quote fromDave Ramsey's because what do we
do?
I looked at my wife and I saidlook how to look at our friends.
Look at other couples.
What did they live for?
They kill themselves all yearso they could brag about the one
week they went away on vacation.
And you know we can do, we'regonna trade in those moments of
once a year for every week ofconsistent commitment to our
(15:47):
marriage and, wow, that journeyturned into a five-year
commitment of doing deep, veryprofound work.
And when people ask me like, soyou know how's it going with
business, professionally,savings, and I would just look
at one, say all the savings havebeen invested and the dividends
(16:07):
will come.
And the life I live today, Ican honestly say is completely a
product of that deep five-yearwork where any dollar that was
available, they didn't go to arestaurant, they didn't go to a
Broadway show, they didn't go toany other expense except deep
investment in our marriage.
(16:27):
And here I am today.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
That's incredible, and some might argue right that
that the deep investment wouldbe those excursions that's what
I'm gonna call it's the wordthat just came to me an
excursion Versus the.
You know, a therapy sessionwhere you guys are having deep
and meaningful content, dialoguewith one another, but with the
component that's missing is thedialogue.
(16:52):
Right, and this is why they sayyou know most couples.
I'm trained in emotionallyfocused therapy, so there's a
lot of like, overlap and commonprinciples and and so much of
our time in relationships isactually spent Side by side on a
couch in front of a television,but there's no dialogue.
Yeah, right, or a screen orwhatever, yeah, and, and you,
(17:15):
just, you know, you guys, bothof you, you know you just took
all of that off the table,that's right and said look the,
and you just sort of honed in on.
This is really what it is, thatthat allows us to deeply connect
.
Is that intentionalConversation?
Speaker 4 (17:33):
yeah, and you know I just want to add to that that in
the most recent book thatHarvelyn Helen Hendricks put out
the founders of a monotherapythey think it's both a model
therapy doing the work in thespace between us.
They actually alluded to thisidea we just mentioned of two
people sat on the couch and theywent even step further and they
said you know, Couples aretalking and they seem like
(17:55):
they're talking to each other,but the reality is that we're
mostly are having parallelmonologues.
Yeah, wow, love that we're notconnecting, we're not pausing to
internalize the other person'sexperience and share with them
ours.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
We'll I'm gonna be totally honest.
I got called out by this.
I got called out by this aboutmy wife this past week for
something like this Did you.
I did and she Um what she sayto you.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
My wife's a doctor.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
She works like crazy hours, she's in a third-year
residency and Because she's sotired when she gets home from
work, I took that to mean liketell her everything about my day
Because she just wants todecompress.
And then I'm so grateful shedid this, but she she literally
said to me she goes look, I lovehearing about your day, but I
really would just like if youasked me more about my day and
(18:48):
you know it's only been a week,but I'm trying to commit myself
to that, but I totally feel whatyou're saying right now.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
Can we comment to that?
Yeah, I just want you to knowthat.
But the comment we guys wediscussed a little bit earlier
about the six years too late.
I just want you to know just tokind of it's important to take
pause of the big picture what Iwould say if you guys came into
me for a session and you told methis.
The first thing I would tellyou is you should appreciate
(19:14):
that your spouse felt safe toshare with you, that she has a
need which tells me yourRelationship is still in a
fairly healthy place but in itsdefault existence.
The question I would be is am Igoing to proactively,
intentionally, sprinklenutrients into this relationship
(19:36):
or, right, I wait until enough?
Toxicity settles inquote-unquote.
Six years later, and now we'rein the emergency room operation.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, well, you, we, igor, you know many of my
mentors and how important theythey.
You know a macho, yakuya sheeva.
I went to they really, reallyemphasize like connectivity with
your spouse and yourrelationship with your, with
your wife, and part of thereason I married my wife,
actually, because how great Ifelt that the communication was
between she and I and so I'mjust doing my best at this point
(20:09):
to really take that informationseriously.
And you know it's hard beingmarried to a to a residence are
being married to a doctor, as itis hard being married to.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
It can also be hard just to be married and listening
to the two of you have thisexchange, I'm thinking, igor,
you I loved, I mean I am gonnaborrow some of that language the
toxicity settles in.
You know, all these, thenutrients, help us, or help our
(20:41):
audience, understand a littlemore about how.
How does a person in arelationship no, what that could
look like in a relationshipthat there is maybe some of that
, some of that happening?
Right, what are some of thesigns that that's happening if
you don't have a Wife like Lioraor a wife like Danny, or you
(21:02):
know, you know that, like ourself-aware enough or tuned in
enough to be able to go hey guys, wait a second, and I'm not
saying it's only the woman tothe man, but you hear what I'm
saying.
So, like what if two people arejust not really even aware
enough that that's happening?
What would you say?
Are some of the signs, or evensymptoms that start to crop up
(21:24):
in a relationship that ouraudience can go?
Oh, hmm, yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, so you know, I'm trying to ask you percent
and I also just want tohighlight that the difficulty
that the question itself posesis the key word you said.
I'm not aware If I'm not aware.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
How am I supposed to flag the?
Speaker 4 (21:42):
problem.
So the first thing I would tellyou is, for me personally and
the work that I've done with, Idare say at this point, hundreds
of couples, is the first placeI go to litmus test Safety.
I'm gonna put it on the bigcategory.
I'm gonna call safety becausewhat I mean by that I don't mean
somebody got forbid is being,you know, physically,
(22:02):
emotionally, abused and like weneed to get authorities involved
.
I'm talking about the followingI want to tell something my
spouse, but I'm nervous abouttheir reaction and I choose not
to tell them for me, first hugered flag that if the
relationship is not a placewhere there is an area of your
(22:23):
own life that you would hesitateto share with your spouse, then
that's a first indication.
Something has either happenedin the relationship or something
is currently happening that'sdriving the hesitation or fear,
and therefore we need to nowstart asking ourselves wait,
there are other areas of my lifewhere I would not be
(22:45):
comfortable to share with myspouse.
Why would I be uncomfortable?
And if I could get just almostlike this, a little inventory or
safety inventory Going and justget an idea of what's
motivating my hesitations, Iwould use that very much as like
a first measuring tool of howhealthy or unhealthy the
(23:06):
relationship is becoming, orfluctuating between those
Dimensions.
So I would for sure startsaying that okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I would call that like a general sense of security
yeah, right, yeah, with yourpartner.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
What is what is unique about a mago therapy
itself, and how does a magotherapy help create that type of
so couples?
Speaker 4 (23:26):
make really big mistake.
When couples come in, what theyshare is what I would call the
content of the relationship.
I'm a Republican and she's aDemocrat, right and now we fight
over policy.
That's a content, but what I'vecome to see is that's actually
a Many skill portion of whatdrives relationships and their
(23:49):
tension.
What drives the relationshipsis how we are being relational,
rather than what we fill therelationship with.
So, in other words, if Iapproached you and I spoke to
you in a demeaning,condescending, critical, bashing
way, right, you're gonna lookat me and say I'm not okay with
(24:10):
this, or you would run away, oryou would say you know you give
some feedback that that wasprobably signal to me.
This is not appropriate.
I'm not okay with this.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Whereas if.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
I tell you.
Well, you know, I believe thatthe you know death penalty is is
a good or bad.
You're gonna look at me and say, okay, well, here's what my
reason is.
Yours, I'm not so far with ourday.
So the reality is, is that whatfuels the tension and
relationships is how we arebeing with each other, not what
we talk about with each other,but the what's, so to speak,
(24:45):
more sexy.
Those are the things thateasier to just point out.
Oh, we disagreed about, youknow, I don't know which car is
cooler, so and that's it.
We could just stop there.
But what we don't want to giveconscious awareness, to wait a
second.
You know the thing you wantedto talk about, the.
What you want to talk about isso much easier for me to hear If
you would express it in acompassionate, caring, gentle
(25:07):
tone, eye contact, safe bodylanguage.
If you gave me those things,it'd be easy for me to hear what
you want to say.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
So let's take that, let's take that couple.
That it's how we fight aboutthe finances.
Not that that's right, that'sright.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
That's funny say that because a friend of mine calls
me up from another, anothersitting in the US and says, hey,
I cannot talk to my wife aboutbudgets, like we just can't talk
about finances.
And he's like, isn't budgetlike step one of conversation
about finances?
And I immediately, caramofnis,said no, it's not.
Step one is how you talk aboutthe budget.
(25:45):
Step two is talking about thebudget, because I bet the reason
you are guys are strugglingtalking about the budget is the
way you talk about it, and ifshe doesn't feel from you that
you are here to discuss it in acollaborative, respectful,
compassionate, open-minded way,then her defense system is
(26:09):
already online in anticipationof Some tension or fight and
therefore we enter thesestalemates, points of contention
Before we even reach thesubject matter.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
So what I do with the mongo to answer that second
part, and what I love about amongo dialogue is I make them
face each other and I say canyou guys tell me a topic that
tends to become very heated oruncomfortable in your
relationship?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
They'll tell me the topic.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
And then I tell them the next hour we will not be
discussing this topic.
And they're like what?
So how are we gonna solve thisproblem?
And then I tell them we'regonna talk about how you
approach this topic, not thetopic itself because if I could
get you both to a place whereyou feel both safe, you feel
(27:01):
seen, you feel acknowledged andvalidated as to where you are.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Very often, the solution will simply surface
about the subject that's, thatsounds like, because I'm just
like envisioning it going downand you're all you don't?
I mean, and I'm like thatsounds poetic.
Speaker 4 (27:27):
Just that process.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
You know, and you're laughing are you smiling?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Yeah, I could feel the poetry as you describe it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Because it really.
It really really is.
You know, an EFT andemotionally focused therapy.
Um, susan Johnson calls it adance right, so it's there's a
lot of overlap right, and it'sreally all comes down to you
know, when I say to clients allthe time look, we all just want
to be seen and heard right and,and what tends to get lost in
(28:01):
translation is that that beingseen, being heard, and so when
you're talking about the how, Ilove that, because that's
something that's like a nugget,even I will be like, oh yeah,
how can I address this?
How can I communicate this?
How can I listen to this whilealso staying aware of my own
(28:25):
experience?
While I'm listening to, thisSounds like all of that is
what's happening in thisdialogue, while you are, for all
intents and purposes, coachingthem through it.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
That's right.
What I'm going to overlay intothat dance that I don't hear
discussed a lot that I find justto be very effective and very
powerful is not only telling,especially when couples begin to
work or they're wondering aboutthe work, to just tell them the
psychology of it, because Iknow that for a lot of people
(29:01):
the resistance in their ownworlds is this is going to be
fluff or this is just tootheoretical.
So one of the things I startedpivoting into is I was just
looking at my bookcase becausethere is a Harvard psychology
professor named Daniel Siegelwho has a book called
Interpersonal Neurobiology.
That's a mouthful.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
He's a really great leader.
Yeah, that's right, he's aleading researcher.
But you know what?
Speaker 4 (29:25):
I'll tell you.
What's interesting is whencouples come in and we just
start having preliminaryconversations and they're like
what's?
this dialogue going to do?
Anyway, I hear what you'reselling us.
What is this going to beactually doing for us?
And when I say you know what,let's shift for a few minutes
from psychology of all of it.
I just want you to understandwhat goes on in your
neurobiology when your spouselooks at you and all of a sudden
(29:49):
you feel judged.
You feel criticism is on itsway.
You know what happens in yourworld without you thinking about
it.
Your world says, uh-oh, Ibetter point my weapons back as
well.
We're entering Cold War.
It's time for me to also beready.
You know what happens when yougo into your reptilian brain.
(30:10):
You are no longer available tobe relational.
You're not really here.
Your defense system is here.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
That is so beautiful.
I love that.
The oldest parts of the brainare the reptilian brain and in
thinking about how reptilesdon't even have families.
Reptiles do not haverelationships.
There may be a mating and eggsrelated, so on and so forth, but
reptiles don't care for theyoung.
Reptiles don't move forward.
So if these types ofinteractions force someone into
(30:46):
these core parts of the brainthat are not helping the
situation, that is a really Veryprimitive part of the brain.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, that's fantastic, and offering that
education to your couples issuch a critical piece to this
process, so that they can reallyunderstand the why.
That's right.
Why are we having this dialoguein this way?
Yeah, why is it Exactly?
Speaker 4 (31:13):
That's why, then, what I follow up with is, I say,
the structure and the frameworkthat Imago Dialogue creates is,
as you are speaking to eachother in this specific way,
which is very different from theway you normally talk, which is
part of the reason why you'rehere talking to marriage.
What the dialogue structuredoes is it walks you through a
(31:37):
more effective communication,but it also helps disarm that
parasympathetic nervous system,the existence in which I am shut
down and I can only think ofhow to protect myself rather
than how to come out of hidingand be relational again.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
And to piggyback on that, because that's perfectly
said is that we all come into arelationship I call it with a
packed suitcase.
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
That's all of your life's experiences, how you grew
up in your own family of origin, past relationships.
So all of those things are atplay as well, not just
experiences from the presentrelationship you're having, but
everything else as well.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
If I can use that as a.
I'm just going to snag thatlead and make a little segue.
Igor, I was wondering if youcould talk a little bit about
your own packed suitcase, so tospeak, if that's all right.
We spoke so much shop, so tospeak, about the therapy itself,
and I could honestly speakabout that rest of the time.
But I really like when we bringguests onto the podcast who can
(32:51):
talk about their own lives inways that help inspire our
listeners to make their ownintuitive choices they need to
make.
So can you let us know a littlebit about growing up, how you
got to college, law school whatwas that experience like?
I can't imagine after puttingso much effort into getting to
(33:12):
college and law school andsucceeding in those fields and
then having the courage toswitch to amalgotherapy.
There's a lot going on there.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
What's your marriage and family therapy right?
Absolutely To just a totallydifferent field.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
How did?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
you grow up.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
Yeah, and I appreciated very much actually
when you've added that the wholesuitcase in the past, because I
was also going to write awaysaying I'll give you sort of
like very quickly, the end ofthe story and then take you back
to the beginning.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
All right everybody.
Thank you for joining us.
So much for part one of Igor'sinterview.
We can't wait to follow up withpart two next week.
In the meantime, here's alittle clip to let you know what
we have in store.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
About seven years into our marriage, I was well
into my law career.
I actually was now about threeyears into my own law firm that
I started.
It's very exciting, kind of youknow.
Everything was sort of on thehorizon, going in the right
direction, and one day my wifejust said to me you know, I'm
tired of kind of going on thesame dates.
We always do, you know, eithergoing out to eat or we're going
(34:21):
to watch a show, and I'd love todo something different.
I said okay, what do you havein mind?
She said I'd like to go to acouples therapist.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
And I froze.
If my wife said that to me, Ithink my heart was flat for a
second.
So were you laughing like that?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I was not laughing like that.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
What you just described.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yeah.
What was your candid responsewhen she suggested I froze?
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Exactly, jacob said, I froze.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
And I said the following sentence is something
wrong.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Yeah.
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