August 31, 2023 • 38 mins
This week's episode is a continuation of our conversation with Igor Meystelman, divorce attorney turned relationship coach. Today's episode delves into the heart of Igor's realization that if he was working as a lawyer to earn his father's approval, he would never truly live for himself.
Igor shows us how to bravely, yet responsibly, begin a new career later in life. He displays how to harmonize pursuing your dreams while still making sure you can provide for your family. This is an episode for anyone who wants to make a career change of any kind.
To check out Igor's relationship coaching: https://www.relationshipreimagined.com/
For Igor's very own podcast: https://www.relationshipreimagined.com/podcast
For Igor's law practice: https://theimlawgroup.com/
Igor's book recommendations:
For Single's
https://www.amazon.com/Keeping-Love-You-Find-Personal/dp/0671734202
For Couple's
https://www.amazon.com/Getting-Love-You-Want-Anniversary/dp/0805087001
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Each week, we invite a guest to speak about how their
own intuitive choices have ledthem to live a more meaningful
life.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome back to our interview with Igor Meiselman,
relationship coach and emagotherapist.
This is part two of a two-partepisode we have with Igor, so if
you haven't had a chancealready, please check out part
one.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And just in case you haven't listened to last week's
episode yet, here's a littleclip from last week to set you
up for today.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
About seven years into our marriage, I was well
into my work career.
I actually was now about threeyears into my own firm that I
started.
Very exciting.
Everything was sort of on thehorizon, going in the right
direction.
And one day my wife just saidto me you know, I'm tired of
kind of going on the same dates.
We always do, you know, eithergoing out to eat or we're going
(01:15):
to watch a show, and I'd like todo something different.
I said, okay, what do you havein mind?
And she said I'd like to go toa couples therapist.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And I froze If my wife said that to me.
I think my heart was fat for asecond, so were you laughing
like that?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I was not laughing like that.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I put you in the scribe.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
What was your candid responsewhen she suggested it?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Exactly Jacob said I froze.
I stared at her and I said thefollowing sentence is something
wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And now, without further ado, today's episode.
So, igor, can you let us know alittle bit about growing up,
how you got to college, lawschool, what was that experience
like?
And then I can't imagine, afterputting so much effort into
getting to college and lawschool and succeeding in those
(02:16):
fields and then having thecourage to switch to
amalgotherapy.
There's a lot going on there.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
What's your marriage and family therapy right?
Absolutely yeah to just atotally different field.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
How did how?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah, and I appreciate it very much actually
when you've added that thewhole suitcase in the past,
because I was also going to sayI'll give you sort of like very
quickly the end of the story andthen take you back to the
beginning, because what wound uphappening and looking back, why
I felt we just were added.
For five years my wife and Iwere added at this therapy is
(02:55):
because as I accessed thatsuitcase and I started to bring
what was in my subconscious intoconsciousness.
One of the things I realizedthrough and it was very painful
realization is I wasn'tpracticing law because I was a
lawyer.
I was practicing law because Iwanted to win my father's love
(03:17):
and respect.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Igor, I am getting the chills everywhere, so am I.
That is, keep, just keep going.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I just I listeners.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
This is so important to human.
Yeah, like yeah, go, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
And then I cried, and then I hated myself, and then I
hated my father, and I wasfilled with lots of very
confusing feelings and thoughts,like how does that realization
lead to hate?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
because I was just going to let you keep going,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Because what I work at least on my journey, but I
definitely now is guided enoughclients and seen it in other
people's lives as well.
You know, like the way we sayhow in grief there's like five
steps to grieving process, Ifeel like there's also a number
of steps to a process of cominginto yourself, into a place of
conscious living, and one of thethings is the experience of
(04:11):
wait a second.
I just did things in my life andmade hugely important life,
defining decisions,unconsciously or subconsciously,
and then to realize, to have amoment of wait.
There was some sort of like apuppeteer in the background this
, you know, subconscious mindthat dictated choices, and
(04:35):
there's almost like a feeling oflike I was victimized by
something and before I couldmove on into an authentic
existence, I had to pause andsay like whoa, I can't believe
this happened to me and I didn'twant to just sort of, you know,
oppress or suppress anotherfeeling.
I wanted to allow that feelingto exist so I could properly
(04:56):
move forward.
And at least for me in my ownjourney, one of the things that
came up was just a feeling ofbeing victimized, feeling of
like wow, like things have takenplace in my life and I wasn't
part of conscious decisionmaking process.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's right, which you could argue, you know, we
could say that's, that'schildren in general, right, like
you know, we are, yeah, we arethe product of our parents.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah, and so.
So, as I processed all of thatand slowly, sort of unburdened,
and I let it go, then finally Iwas able to ask, from a place of
clarity and a relaxed sort ofstate of being well, what would
I want to do if, if I was 20again and Igor was asked Igor,
the world is for the taking, theworld is waiting for you.
(05:45):
Where do you want to go?
What path you want to pick?
And what slowly began tosurface for me was I would like
to live a life of a healer.
I don't want to live a life ofa lawyer, I'm a healer.
That that's what began to sortof come into focus slowly, as I
(06:05):
became more aligned with what Ifelt was my authentic Identity
and I wanted to touch it andexpress myself from an identity
level of being.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Igor, this is Like my eyes started to like well up,
because it's that is anextraordinary Realization we're
coming to, knowing about youryourself.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
How were you able to make the space to to get that
much clarity bomb?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
question, because maybe now I'm gonna shock you a
little.
Let's go back to a moga therapy.
I, I didn't make the space, mywife made the space and I'll
explain.
That's a big twist and I'llexplain what I mean.
Okay, moga therapy believesthat the following idea we are
(06:59):
born into relationships.
We are, we are harmed inrelationships and we heal
through relationships.
We are relational beings.
If I went off the mountain topand I meditated, I Don't believe
I would come to the claritythat I came to the way I came to
(07:19):
this clarity is session aftersession after session, having
the most important person in mylife sitting across from me,
holding space as I shared myauthentic self, and her safe
presence Allowed for my internaltransformation.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Wow, now what?
What would you say to somebodythat maybe isn't in a
relationship but Really is on apath of self-discovery right
that they don't necessarily needor I don't know?
You tell me that that was anintegral part of your, of your
(08:06):
process of aligning.
But what about for somebodywho's not in a relationship?
Do you think they have anopportunity?
Do you think they have the sameopportunity To get to that,
that level of self-awareness andalignment?
Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I would say that there is a certain amount of
depth we are capable of reachingon our own.
The way I would describe it, Ithink is the most accurate way
to say it is it's not that youwon't access.
Let's say you know the fulldepth of who you are on your own
(08:47):
.
It's more of that.
We are multi-dimensional andthere are different Compartments
within who we are.
Our essence we will access onour own, and there's some
compartments that will simplystay dormant Until we bring to
life and awaken the relationalcomponents oh, I'm so.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I was like say or that the other.
The other is what awakens atthe environment.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
It's like an epiphenomena, something that
arises based of this situation.
Yes, so.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Henry David Thoreau, to me, is like the classic
example of right lives on thepond by himself Produces
tremendous.
You know literature.
You know some of the greatestworks of 19th century American
literature.
Ultimately, is there somethingin my opinion or something that
was left dormant.
Yes, the relational parts ofhim.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Really, I love that you're saying that, but are
there parts of him?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
that are also part of his Essence, that came to life
by going through anintrospective internal journey,
absolutely oh.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
My gosh you are.
I Like I could eat this likebreakfast, lunch, but I do want
to.
I want to ask One, one morequestion, and maybe it's more of
a statement.
Just see how you respond to it.
Your, your pivot, yourtransition right from law to
(10:09):
relationship, couples,counseling.
Okay, when you talked aboutrealizing that you know you
practice law not because youwanted to be a lawyer, but
because you wanted to sort oflike fulfill, you know, this
relationship with your dad.
But, like I would push back atyou a little bit and say,
couldn't we say that that wasall a part of your, of the
(10:33):
process, right to like get towhere you are here, going
through that experience of beinga lawyer for all those years
and all the types of Experiencesyou've had as an attorney, that
that also can can was a part ofyour journey in a really
important way, or not?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
That's a great great point.
Remember I mentioned that.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Kim Eagle as a big where has a big old Forget, you
guys could see me, I forgot.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I also you are.
I don't know if you know this.
I'm blind.
I'm actually blind, so I cannotsee you at all anyway.
So Joe's Jacob does greatthings by describing Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Tell you as follows.
Remember I mentioned that Ibelieve that there are Stages,
just like in the grievingprocess, so to in a sort of a
life actualization process,there are stages.
So I feel that one of the mostcrucial stages I mean they're
all Important because they'reall- necessary but one of these
stages that are crucial isacceptance.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Can I accept?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
this, too, has a place and value in my journey.
Yes, and that's why, as I wassort of completing, graduating
the stage of Resentment andfrustration and with my father
and how could you do this to me?
And I did all this because ofyou, right, eventually, when
(11:58):
that stage passed, I then foundmyself confronted with the next
stage.
Can I also cherish whathappened?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Because that, too, brought me to where.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I am today.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Can you name something that you resented and
then cherished?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
my wife.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Wow, oh, whoa, did not see that coming.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Oh my gosh, igor, what a bomb didn't see that
coming.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
No, I thought today we're keeping it real.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah yeah, yeah, we appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
So my teachers, my mentors, my parents, um deep
moment.
I'm gonna call them moments,moments of deep internal
struggle, of loving them,respecting them, because you
know, it was on the line, myexistence was on the line.
And when you're authentic,that's right, your existence
(12:53):
right, and when we touch thoseplaces in ourselves and it's
survival time.
It's very hard to be there forothers.
It's very hard to recognizetheir place until all of it sort
of recalibrates settles down,and then we could say, whoa, now
(13:15):
I know why those people arehere, and why I now will love
them for having been their onlyjourney.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And I just want to thank you because I don't know
if you, what you just did is.
You have totally normalized thelike, the dual experience of
and maybe it's not at the sametime, but those experiences of
you will have resentment towardpeople in your life, people that
(13:47):
you love.
Those things will happen rightand also there is always the
opportunity for acceptance,forgiveness, for those things to
take place as well, becausewhen you sort of lift my wife,
my mentors, my you know, all the, my dad, all these different
people, it's like, oh yeah, weall have some of that, we all
(14:08):
experience because we're allhuman.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I can't tell you how many times that we sat in a
couple of sessions and I or mywife would say something along
the following lines we would bewalking closer and closer to
vulnerable experiences.
And then one of us would say Ihate you right now, and the
other one would say why?
Because I'm afraid that whatI'm about to share, I'm afraid
(14:31):
what will you do with this?
And then we would know thatwhen we will share, we will get
on the other side of this and itwill only bring us closer
together.
But there's no way to avoid, butto walk through it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Not if we want to have real connection.
When I was in high school, Ihad a pretty eccentric Latin
teacher.
He would make us translate,like old Latin poetry, and
there's, like this poem, thispoem from Catullus and I can't
remember how old it is, but youknow it's in Latin, so it's
pretty old, and it's calledOdietamo.
It's like a two verse poem andit's literally I love you and I
hate you, odietamo and and or Ihate you and I love you.
(15:11):
Rather, and it always stuck outto me, even from high school,
that like this is a universalhuman experience and the people
whom we love the most are alsothe people we have the capacity
to hate the most.
And that's always intertwined.
It's like an intensity ofemotion and of emotion because,
like you are so important to meand how you make me feel about
myself is so vital that ifyou're not giving me everything
(15:33):
I need, I resent you for, like,drying up the well.
Essentially, yeah, and I thinkthat's your Clive.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Clive once said to me I hate you, please don't leave
me oh that's a book that isawesome.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Oh yeah yeah, yeah.
Ego.
Were you able to?
Did you ever have theseconversations with your father
in retrospect?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
There was one time I attempted a conversation with
him, it went sideways terribly,there was no receptivity, and it
what it did though again, itwas just not a gift on a journey
, and because what it did is, itshowed me I need to process and
accept in a real way, versusaccept based on him making my
(16:26):
world better.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, yeah, what a real life.
Yeah, what a real life playingout of the original dynamic that
made you that really like youhad this like a weakening moment
or like coming to know yourselfmoment, like that's almost like
it happened in real time.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
You know you mentioned before we started
recording that your family'sfrom the former Soviet Union and
frankly, it's not a place ofthe world I understand like all
too much, but what I do know isthe clients I've met whose
parents are from the formerSoviet Union.
There is very there seems to bevery little conversation about
emotions or the importance ofemotions.
(17:05):
Or the expression and it's likewe got out and get your job
done.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Can you speak to the other one?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
sure, I just think very broad strokes.
What I would tell you is, youknow, when we talk about sort of
an idea of a collective socialtrauma when people are living in
an environment, that if you'regrowing up in America, it's
nearly impossible to get someoneto fully appreciate what this
is like.
(17:32):
To wake up every day and livein an environment where you
don't know who will disappeartoday, who will be arrested, who
will be accused of something wedo know.
Can I call my lawyer, please,and have my rights read to me?
You just disappear and what itdoes is, if you talk about
reptilian brain, it puts peopleas a collective into completely
(17:56):
reptilian existence.
So how are you going to beaccessing emotions, Are you
going to access a life ofcreativity when you are
constantly just trying tosurvive?
And that's what it produces.
It produces a population of,you know, quasi half depressed,
dysfunctional human beings whoare high performers in you know.
(18:18):
That's where I would alwaysjoke and say like, oh, the
Russians, yeah, there must beengineers.
And, by the way, notice howinteresting fields that have
nothing to do with emotions,fields that have nothing to do
with accessing those creative,playful energies that are part
of being a human being.
They're accessing the brain,the prefrontal cortex.
(18:39):
The rest is cut off.
And that, for sure, was myexperience, and it's kind of
ironic because people was jokingto me like you know I was.
I have a musical part to me.
I played a trumpet when I wasin high school and college and
when I mentioned certain thingswe were like well, didn't you
become a computer scientist?
I'm like no, I didn't.
In fact, you know Jigels askedme earlier about sort of the
journey.
(18:59):
You know I went, grew up inBrooklyn, came to America.
I was 11, grew up in Brooklyn,went to public schools, went to
one of the city universities inNew York and only then I was
like you know what?
I think I want to be aprofessor in college, love to
teach.
I really enjoyed.
I was a tutor in college whereI was at school and I was like I
think I would like to teach andI enrolled in PhD program in
(19:21):
UCLA.
I had a full scholarship and Iwas like that's it.
You know, I'm 23, like I'mbright pastures on their way,
and all of a sudden I was likewait a second, something's
really missing right now in mylife and that, you know, kind of
began my own journey and justpersonal spiritual realms, and I
totally re-oriented it.
(19:41):
I was like, okay, I'm going togo to law school.
And then, you know, find myselfin law school, I graduate, I
start working, and then you know, then sort of giving you very
quick jumps but fast forward,and then you know, seven years
later my wife was inviting me totherapy and there was a therapy
and I'm like can we do a bigdo-over now?
As I accessed all of this pastand processed and thought about
(20:04):
what was driving the decisions.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So many people who like want the do-over and
because there are no truedo-overs, they also don't do
like the reset.
How could you, how did youallow yourself to do the reset
knowing there's no do-over?
You're not going back to 23,.
You know there's a sunk costfallacy, almost Like I can have
a good career as a lawyer, I canbribe over my kids.
(20:27):
Like how do you risk that forpursuing your passion?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
So this is going to take us into, in my opinion, to
a probably fairly complexconversation.
Looking back at my own journey,what I would say now to people
or somebody who reached out tome for input you know, advice,
perspective is I would say thatif you're finding yourself in a
place where you're like, wait,I'm, at this point in my life
(20:55):
I'm supposed to sort of like Isaid sunk cost, Like I'm
supposed to sort of discard allof this and now move on, that
question itself, I think, iswhat creates the paralysis to
not move forward, and I believethat that question is the wrong
question To me.
The way I reoriented away fromthat question and I think this
(21:16):
is ultimately will touch thepiece you want to know about the
intuitive decision making.
For me, the question came toclarity into the following form
what am I supposed to do with mylife now?
Not what should I do with mylife now, Because I did this for
10 years.
(21:37):
Because I went to school,because I have these student
loans, and instead the questionbecame if I have today, what am
I supposed to do with today?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So how did you get to the question of now?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
The way I got this question is oh man, this is good
.
Wow, now that you're asking it,I'm actually remembering.
Oh okay, I have to tell youthis.
So you guys will decide.
If you want to shred it, dowhatever you want to do, but I
have a feeling you're gonna lovethis, it's 2014.
I'm at my second law firm andon Wednesday I'll never forget
(22:12):
this On Wednesday in August JulyI have this feeling I'm gonna
get fired.
Don't ask me.
Talk about intuition, by theway.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I'm gonna get fired.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Friday, the managing person in the office, who's not
an attorney, was just itselfpart of the problems that I saw
in the firm and I became vocalabout the things I felt were.
There were ethical issues and Ibecame vocal.
That's why I started becomingconcerned.
Friday surely enough calls meto the office in the morning.
It says today's your last day.
I'll never forget it.
(22:46):
I looked at her, I smiled and Igot up and I went to my office,
put all my stuff in the boxlike literally like a movie
scene, walked to my car and wenthome.
A month later, August 1st 2014,I opened my own law firm.
Now, why am I telling you this?
Two years later, I get a phonecall from the named partner of
(23:08):
the law firm and says hey, Igor,it's me, Do you remember me?
I said, yeah, Now, I had noproblems with this person.
He wasn't involved, which,again, was part of the problem.
And he says to me I'm closingthe firm and I'm being
investigated by the ethicscommittee.
Can you be my lawyer?
Oh my gosh, oh, and I defend Ihave a chance everywhere.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
My head feels like, like.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
It feels like my hair is sticking up on my neck, oh
my goodness, and I representedthis lawyer in front of the New
York State grievance committeein the case.
And when I reflect on thatmoment, do you imagine in my
darkest moment?
I'm fired, I have three kids.
I'm driving home like honey.
I don't know how I'm gonnabreak this news to you.
(23:52):
It's Friday.
I'm driving home To waking uptwo years later and be like I'm
representing the guy in front ofthe grievance committee.
I could have been sitting nextto him in that seat If the
person who I at that momenthated, who fired me, turned out
to be my salvation.
So talk about stepping back andallowing ourselves to see a
(24:13):
bigger picture of life.
Right, talk about stepping back, but anyway.
So now to tell you thefollowing.
So there's that month windowwhere I'm like what am I going
to do?
I start my own firm.
I don't have enough clients, Idon't have a book of business.
What am I going to do?
And during that month, I startedjogging on the boardwalk.
We lived in Farakoy, new York.
(24:34):
We lived very close to theocean and I was like I got to
start running again.
I start running and I go onYouTube and I'm like let me find
some inspirational videos.
And first thing pops up LesBrown.
Who the heck is Les Brown?
I have no idea.
I just press play and I startrunning and all of a sudden I
just hear a voice of somebodywho was speaking to my soul.
(24:55):
It wasn't like all right, youknow, I got to sign up for Tony
Robbins date with Destiny.
Let me try to.
It wasn't like that.
It was just like let me justclick on something and the
universe somehow decided to lineit all up for me and I start
running and I start listening tothem every single day, and just
the messages he kept saying.
(25:15):
I was like this is me, I needthis.
And one of the things he wassaying I mean there's many
amazing messages, but one ofthem simply was that message was
will you just be some someonethat passes through this world
and you're forgotten, or willthe world remember why you came
this way?
And I asked myself why did Icome this way?
(25:39):
Why am I here?
And all of a sudden, with thatpressure of the student loans,
and you know, that's it I'vemade myself a path.
I'm a lawyer.
Now it began to ease its gripon me and I was able to allow
myself to introduce a newquestion but why am I here at
(26:02):
this moment?
What impact am I supposed tomake at this moment?
And is my current toolbox cutout for the journey where I am
now?
And then I started being ableto say to myself wait a second,
I don't think I can do with whatI have, what I want to do next.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And tangibly we're talking about like a lot of
degree right, and those kinds ofthings.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
And as I was able to loosen that grip of that's it,
my fate has been decided for me.
You better stick with law tillyou retire, because that's what
you've decided to do.
I was able to let go of thatgrip, let it sort of hover in
the background and now startasking the new although scary
but new and important questionslike what am I supposed to do
(26:52):
now?
And what began to slowlysurface.
Was this internal conversationmeant to make an impact in the
world?
I can make an impact in theworld, great.
How am I going to do this?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
That's extraordinary.
Can you just tell our listenershow roughly, how old you were
when you went for that run that?
Speaker 3 (27:14):
run was when I was 34 years old and about eight years
later.
Imagine this, eight years later, of running and I'm still
running.
Eight years later that here I amsitting in December, god
willing, will graduate in mymaster's program as marriage
family therapist and then,hopefully, will pursue a PhD.
(27:36):
I already have two subjectsthat I'm very passionate to
explore more about on the PhDlevel and in the world of
relationships.
I can give you a sneak previewOne is self-esteem and one is
religious trauma, and both ofthese subjects is what's already
hovering for me.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And then, how old would you be when you're
starting the PhD?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Theoretically, I would be 43.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I think, that's important for our listeners.
So that story, really it justshows so many different moments
where you made some reallyimportant decisions that, for
(28:26):
lack of a better way of puttingit like almost didn't feel like
it came from you.
You know, like it just was,like it was almost like you were
being guided, or I use a phrasethere, so just use it yesterday
and therapy with a client whereI said it's like you're being
carried.
You know that's right.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
So you know what I would add to that.
I would describe it as apartnership.
The role that I played and thisI think for listeners would be
important to understand, therole that I played in my own
journey was getting out of myown way to allow myself to
become a vessel that couldreceive that deeper wisdom.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and then the wisdom entered Once I let go of
the ego.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
once I let go of agenda, what will others think
it's all ego?
And when you're able to justsay to the ego look, you're
going to have to step aside.
I need a few moments of truthwith myself.
I need this to be, you know, tobe put aside.
Then things began to answer,and one thing I want to tell you
, by the way, is I didn't flyoff the handle and close the
(29:28):
firm.
The firm is still open.
So for those who want to knowlike, well, but practically it's
like what am I going to do?
So, for example, in my ownjourney, what I did is just to
show you how zoomed in I becameon my dream.
Once it came to clarity, I tookmy own pay, cut my own, because
I own the firm and I hired anassociate attorney to offload my
(29:51):
case load and let him sort oftake over and manage the firm.
So I could take bigger stepback and I was then able to
focus responsibly on pursuing mypassion.
And so the firm is still openand I still have sort of
residual income from it whileI'm building my relationship,
(30:12):
coaching and got well therapypractice.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yes, and I love, love that you, that you bring up
this, these two or three factorsthat I hear all the time.
But I had all I have all thesestudent loans.
But I put in, I invested all ofthis time getting this degree,
all these, oh, it's just okay.
Well, what am I going to dowith today?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
That's right.
And that question is what Ifound sort of took me down that
elevator into the depth of theinternal demons and dragons that
needed to be slayed, which isand if I do this, these people
criticize me, if I did this Iwon't have approval anymore from
my parents and if I do that,that people will think I'm crazy
(30:57):
.
I was able to kind of slicethrough fear, all these things I
had to slice through, until Ifinally could get to that really
core question of I'm in theworld right now.
What is my purpose?
Why am I here?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
now.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
And the only thing that kept coming to me was
you're now in the world to playsome small role in healing it.
And I asked so how will I dothat?
What little mark will Igor makein this world?
And to me, all roads pointed tothe phone.
Here's the irony.
Maybe all those years you spentas a lawyer are meant to serve
(31:39):
you now as well.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And they will serve in the new capacity.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
This is so incredible .
And but for those of, for thosepeople who are listening to our
podcast, who really can't seeyou, right, whether you know,
because maybe they're not localto you or maybe they don't have
the budget, the budget for it,what, what, what can you leave
our audience with around?
(32:06):
What they can do on their ownto nourish, nurture their own
relationships?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
So Harvel Hendricks and Helen Honda, the founders of
a model therapy, wrote a seriesof books.
One of the books is now workingon the relationship.
It's great books, each onefilled with exercises as you go
through the chapters.
They wrote a book on how to doparenting and then they wrote a
(32:36):
book for singles, and so I wouldhighly recommend looking at two
books Getting the Love you Wantand Keeping the Love.
You Find One of them.
I don't remember it now off thetop of my head.
One of them is for singles andit's a fantastic read.
I went through it verycarefully after I've done all
the work with my wife, just tosee kind of what would it be
(32:59):
like to be recommending it, andit really takes you on this
really awesome roller coasterjourney into your childhood.
It has all kinds of surveys andquestions for you to really
explore and for those who justkind of want to develop more
self-awareness, as they rightnow want to take advantage of
their single time as singles andto understand themselves better
(33:23):
and through that experiencealso be able to really bring to
more clarity when I do want todate, when I'm ready for a
relationship, if I want topursue one, what things now I
could have in my consciousnessand therefore just make a more
quality decisions than sort ofstumble and fumble through
(33:43):
relationships and hope I get theright one.
So I would highly recommendthose.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thank you.
And then also, you have yourown podcast, as I mentioned.
So so, where can, where can ourlisteners find you?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It's completely your time now, Igor.
Tell us about your podcast,your practices, anything anyone
should go for.
Let's hear the pitch.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Ok.
So the podcast is called theDating, marriage and Divorce
Conversations.
You could find that on Spotifyand on Apple.
I basically talk abouteverything through.
You know every, every phase ofsomebody's relationship life.
It's great content.
The episodes are meant to be 15to 30 minutes long.
(34:27):
I have a few sort of outliersthat are much longer, but most
episodes are shorter for areason.
They tend to be very on point,not dense, but very on point,
very just kind of powerfulencounters with subjects that I
just find are constantlyrecurring themes in the realm of
relationships.
(34:48):
Oh, my goodness, that's soexciting that people can find
yeah, yeah, and usually peoplelisteners, I regularly get all
kinds of feedback like all out,that I really needed to hear
that, or wow, I never heard that.
Thank you for crystallizing theconcept and helping me see how
this is playing out in myrelationships, like these are
very typical feedbacks that Ireceived.
(35:08):
So the content the podcast forsure is great content in that
regard and you know, today Ipretty much focus on doing
relationship work and today mostcouples that work with me work
with me in sort of one or twotracks either.
it's sort of come as you wishbasis.
(35:29):
So you know somebody wants asession, they reach out to me,
they schedule something and wejust do like a one off.
And then there's couples whocome in who really want to do
like a deep dive experience, andthe more I was getting those
requests, the more what sort ofcrystallized for me is what I
call a 12 week program, which islike a really immersive
(35:50):
experience.
We kind of go through 12pillars dimensions that I find
are like the main stays ofrelationships and offer all
sorts of sort of backgroundsupport.
I usually form like littleWhatsApp groups with each couple
so they could kind of access methroughout the week.
In between sessions I give themhomework assignments and it's
(36:13):
sort of meant to be.
I call it give me three monthsfor the rest of your life versus
sort of touch and go.
Is this virtual?
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, yeah, and or in person yeah.
So people who are local.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I'm mostly in Phoenix , arizona, so people who are
local like to come into theoffice.
But at this point I havecouples around the country and
most people aren't Zoom andagain, what I find awesome is
that they're talking to eachother.
So my absence, you know,physically from the room, I
believe you know, does not takeso much away, you know, from
(36:46):
their relational experiences,because, at the end of the day,
they're talking to each other.
I'm just facilitating theirexperiences.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
And if any of our listeners are interested in your
services, how can they find you?
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I mean, the easiest would be email Igorigor at
relationshipreimaginedcom.
The email is usually theeasiest and we'll put that in
the show notes.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
And my phone is also easy.
People, what's happening?
All the time it's a646-725-8081.
People are welcome to reach outto me that way as well.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I feel so grateful for this conversation.
Yeah for sure.
I don't even have.
I'm like a little bit evenspeechless, and people that know
me really well are kind of likeyou don't have any words, yeah
it's just incredible.
So thank you for even just goshyour openness and your
willingness not just to come onthe podcast.
(37:40):
Just like in life in general,it's just like you're such a
refreshing human being.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
And your clients are really are in really good hands
with you.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Well, okay, fantastic this is.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I'm so glad to have met you.
I am so excited to keep intouch with you.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Sure, it's so nice to meet you.
Also, surprise, we're friends,that's right.
Love it, love it.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Nothing like fellow travelers.
Yeah, that's right, it'sincredible.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Thank you for having me.
We appreciate it Very good.
We want to thank you so muchfor listening to today's episode
.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like
subscribe, rate and review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us at intuitivechoicespodcast atgmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out atintuitivecounselingofphillycom.
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Each week, we invite a guest to speak about how their
own intuitive choices have ledthem to live a more meaningful
life.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Welcome back to our interview with Igor Meiselman,
relationship coach and emagotherapist.
This is part two of a two-partepisode we have with Igor, so if
you haven't had a chancealready, please check out part
one.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And just in case you haven't listened to last week's
episode yet, here's a littleclip from last week to set you
up for today.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
About seven years into our marriage, I was well
into my work career.
I actually was now about threeyears into my own firm that I
started.
Very exciting.
Everything was sort of on thehorizon, going in the right
direction.
And one day my wife just saidto me you know, I'm tired of
kind of going on the same dates.
We always do, you know, eithergoing out to eat or we're going
(01:15):
to watch a show, and I'd like todo something different.
I said, okay, what do you havein mind?
And she said I'd like to go toa couples therapist.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
And I froze If my wife said that to me.
I think my heart was fat for asecond, so were you laughing
like that?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I was not laughing like that.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I put you in the scribe.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah.
What was your candid responsewhen she suggested it?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Exactly Jacob said I froze.
I stared at her and I said thefollowing sentence is something
wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
And now, without further ado, today's episode.
So, igor, can you let us know alittle bit about growing up,
how you got to college, lawschool, what was that experience
like?
And then I can't imagine, afterputting so much effort into
getting to college and lawschool and succeeding in those
(02:16):
fields and then having thecourage to switch to
amalgotherapy.
There's a lot going on there.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
What's your marriage and family therapy right?
Absolutely yeah to just atotally different field.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
How did how?
Speaker 1 (02:32):
did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Yeah, and I appreciate it very much actually
when you've added that thewhole suitcase in the past,
because I was also going to sayI'll give you sort of like very
quickly the end of the story andthen take you back to the
beginning, because what wound uphappening and looking back, why
I felt we just were added.
For five years my wife and Iwere added at this therapy is
(02:55):
because as I accessed thatsuitcase and I started to bring
what was in my subconscious intoconsciousness.
One of the things I realizedthrough and it was very painful
realization is I wasn'tpracticing law because I was a
lawyer.
I was practicing law because Iwanted to win my father's love
(03:17):
and respect.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Igor, I am getting the chills everywhere, so am I.
That is, keep, just keep going.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
I just I listeners.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
This is so important to human.
Yeah, like yeah, go, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
And then I cried, and then I hated myself, and then I
hated my father, and I wasfilled with lots of very
confusing feelings and thoughts,like how does that realization
lead to hate?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
because I was just going to let you keep going,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Because what I work at least on my journey, but I
definitely now is guided enoughclients and seen it in other
people's lives as well.
You know, like the way we sayhow in grief there's like five
steps to grieving process, Ifeel like there's also a number
of steps to a process of cominginto yourself, into a place of
conscious living, and one of thethings is the experience of
(04:11):
wait a second.
I just did things in my life andmade hugely important life,
defining decisions,unconsciously or subconsciously,
and then to realize, to have amoment of wait.
There was some sort of like apuppeteer in the background this
, you know, subconscious mindthat dictated choices, and
(04:35):
there's almost like a feeling oflike I was victimized by
something and before I couldmove on into an authentic
existence, I had to pause andsay like whoa, I can't believe
this happened to me and I didn'twant to just sort of, you know,
oppress or suppress anotherfeeling.
I wanted to allow that feelingto exist so I could properly
(04:56):
move forward.
And at least for me in my ownjourney, one of the things that
came up was just a feeling ofbeing victimized, feeling of
like wow, like things have takenplace in my life and I wasn't
part of conscious decisionmaking process.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's right, which you could argue, you know, we
could say that's, that'schildren in general, right, like
you know, we are, yeah, we arethe product of our parents.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah, and so.
So, as I processed all of thatand slowly, sort of unburdened,
and I let it go, then finally Iwas able to ask, from a place of
clarity and a relaxed sort ofstate of being well, what would
I want to do if, if I was 20again and Igor was asked Igor,
the world is for the taking, theworld is waiting for you.
(05:45):
Where do you want to go?
What path you want to pick?
And what slowly began tosurface for me was I would like
to live a life of a healer.
I don't want to live a life ofa lawyer, I'm a healer.
That that's what began to sortof come into focus slowly, as I
(06:05):
became more aligned with what Ifelt was my authentic Identity
and I wanted to touch it andexpress myself from an identity
level of being.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Igor, this is Like my eyes started to like well up,
because it's that is anextraordinary Realization we're
coming to, knowing about youryourself.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
How were you able to make the space to to get that
much clarity bomb?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
question, because maybe now I'm gonna shock you a
little.
Let's go back to a moga therapy.
I, I didn't make the space, mywife made the space and I'll
explain.
That's a big twist and I'llexplain what I mean.
Okay, moga therapy believesthat the following idea we are
(06:59):
born into relationships.
We are, we are harmed inrelationships and we heal
through relationships.
We are relational beings.
If I went off the mountain topand I meditated, I Don't believe
I would come to the claritythat I came to the way I came to
(07:19):
this clarity is session aftersession after session, having
the most important person in mylife sitting across from me,
holding space as I shared myauthentic self, and her safe
presence Allowed for my internaltransformation.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Wow, now what?
What would you say to somebodythat maybe isn't in a
relationship but Really is on apath of self-discovery right
that they don't necessarily needor I don't know?
You tell me that that was anintegral part of your, of your
(08:06):
process of aligning.
But what about for somebodywho's not in a relationship?
Do you think they have anopportunity?
Do you think they have the sameopportunity To get to that,
that level of self-awareness andalignment?
Yes and no.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I would say that there is a certain amount of
depth we are capable of reachingon our own.
The way I would describe it, Ithink is the most accurate way
to say it is it's not that youwon't access.
Let's say you know the fulldepth of who you are on your own
(08:47):
.
It's more of that.
We are multi-dimensional andthere are different Compartments
within who we are.
Our essence we will access onour own, and there's some
compartments that will simplystay dormant Until we bring to
life and awaken the relationalcomponents oh, I'm so.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I was like say or that the other.
The other is what awakens atthe environment.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
It's like an epiphenomena, something that
arises based of this situation.
Yes, so.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Henry David Thoreau, to me, is like the classic
example of right lives on thepond by himself Produces
tremendous.
You know literature.
You know some of the greatestworks of 19th century American
literature.
Ultimately, is there somethingin my opinion or something that
was left dormant.
Yes, the relational parts ofhim.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Really, I love that you're saying that, but are
there parts of him?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
that are also part of his Essence, that came to life
by going through anintrospective internal journey,
absolutely oh.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
My gosh you are.
I Like I could eat this likebreakfast, lunch, but I do want
to.
I want to ask One, one morequestion, and maybe it's more of
a statement.
Just see how you respond to it.
Your, your pivot, yourtransition right from law to
(10:09):
relationship, couples,counseling.
Okay, when you talked aboutrealizing that you know you
practice law not because youwanted to be a lawyer, but
because you wanted to sort oflike fulfill, you know, this
relationship with your dad.
But, like I would push back atyou a little bit and say,
couldn't we say that that wasall a part of your, of the
(10:33):
process, right to like get towhere you are here, going
through that experience of beinga lawyer for all those years
and all the types of Experiencesyou've had as an attorney, that
that also can can was a part ofyour journey in a really
important way, or not?
Speaker 3 (10:51):
That's a great great point.
Remember I mentioned that.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Kim Eagle as a big where has a big old Forget, you
guys could see me, I forgot.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I also you are.
I don't know if you know this.
I'm blind.
I'm actually blind, so I cannotsee you at all anyway.
So Joe's Jacob does greatthings by describing Okay.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Tell you as follows.
Remember I mentioned that Ibelieve that there are Stages,
just like in the grievingprocess, so to in a sort of a
life actualization process,there are stages.
So I feel that one of the mostcrucial stages I mean they're
all Important because they'reall- necessary but one of these
stages that are crucial isacceptance.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Can I accept?
Speaker 3 (11:36):
this, too, has a place and value in my journey.
Yes, and that's why, as I wassort of completing, graduating
the stage of Resentment andfrustration and with my father
and how could you do this to me?
And I did all this because ofyou, right, eventually, when
(11:58):
that stage passed, I then foundmyself confronted with the next
stage.
Can I also cherish whathappened?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Because that, too, brought me to where.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
I am today.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Can you name something that you resented and
then cherished?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
my wife.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Wow, oh, whoa, did not see that coming.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Oh my gosh, igor, what a bomb didn't see that
coming.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
No, I thought today we're keeping it real.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah yeah, yeah, we appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
So my teachers, my mentors, my parents, um deep
moment.
I'm gonna call them moments,moments of deep internal
struggle, of loving them,respecting them, because you
know, it was on the line, myexistence was on the line.
And when you're authentic,that's right, your existence
(12:53):
right, and when we touch thoseplaces in ourselves and it's
survival time.
It's very hard to be there forothers.
It's very hard to recognizetheir place until all of it sort
of recalibrates settles down,and then we could say, whoa, now
(13:15):
I know why those people arehere, and why I now will love
them for having been their onlyjourney.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And I just want to thank you because I don't know
if you, what you just did is.
You have totally normalized thelike, the dual experience of
and maybe it's not at the sametime, but those experiences of
you will have resentment towardpeople in your life, people that
(13:47):
you love.
Those things will happen rightand also there is always the
opportunity for acceptance,forgiveness, for those things to
take place as well, becausewhen you sort of lift my wife,
my mentors, my you know, all the, my dad, all these different
people, it's like, oh yeah, weall have some of that, we all
(14:08):
experience because we're allhuman.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
I can't tell you how many times that we sat in a
couple of sessions and I or mywife would say something along
the following lines we would bewalking closer and closer to
vulnerable experiences.
And then one of us would say Ihate you right now, and the
other one would say why?
Because I'm afraid that whatI'm about to share, I'm afraid
(14:31):
what will you do with this?
And then we would know thatwhen we will share, we will get
on the other side of this and itwill only bring us closer
together.
But there's no way to avoid, butto walk through it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Not if we want to have real connection.
When I was in high school, Ihad a pretty eccentric Latin
teacher.
He would make us translate,like old Latin poetry, and
there's, like this poem, thispoem from Catullus and I can't
remember how old it is, but youknow it's in Latin, so it's
pretty old, and it's calledOdietamo.
It's like a two verse poem andit's literally I love you and I
hate you, odietamo and and or Ihate you and I love you.
(15:11):
Rather, and it always stuck outto me, even from high school,
that like this is a universalhuman experience and the people
whom we love the most are alsothe people we have the capacity
to hate the most.
And that's always intertwined.
It's like an intensity ofemotion and of emotion because,
like you are so important to meand how you make me feel about
myself is so vital that ifyou're not giving me everything
(15:33):
I need, I resent you for, like,drying up the well.
Essentially, yeah, and I thinkthat's your Clive.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Clive once said to me I hate you, please don't leave
me oh that's a book that isawesome.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Oh yeah yeah, yeah.
Ego.
Were you able to?
Did you ever have theseconversations with your father
in retrospect?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
There was one time I attempted a conversation with
him, it went sideways terribly,there was no receptivity, and it
what it did though again, itwas just not a gift on a journey
, and because what it did is, itshowed me I need to process and
accept in a real way, versusaccept based on him making my
(16:26):
world better.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, yeah, what a real life.
Yeah, what a real life playingout of the original dynamic that
made you that really like youhad this like a weakening moment
or like coming to know yourselfmoment, like that's almost like
it happened in real time.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
You know you mentioned before we started
recording that your family'sfrom the former Soviet Union and
frankly, it's not a place ofthe world I understand like all
too much, but what I do know isthe clients I've met whose
parents are from the formerSoviet Union.
There is very there seems to bevery little conversation about
emotions or the importance ofemotions.
(17:05):
Or the expression and it's likewe got out and get your job
done.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Can you speak to the other one?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
sure, I just think very broad strokes.
What I would tell you is, youknow, when we talk about sort of
an idea of a collective socialtrauma when people are living in
an environment, that if you'regrowing up in America, it's
nearly impossible to get someoneto fully appreciate what this
is like.
(17:32):
To wake up every day and livein an environment where you
don't know who will disappeartoday, who will be arrested, who
will be accused of something wedo know.
Can I call my lawyer, please,and have my rights read to me?
You just disappear and what itdoes is, if you talk about
reptilian brain, it puts peopleas a collective into completely
(17:56):
reptilian existence.
So how are you going to beaccessing emotions, Are you
going to access a life ofcreativity when you are
constantly just trying tosurvive?
And that's what it produces.
It produces a population of,you know, quasi half depressed,
dysfunctional human beings whoare high performers in you know.
(18:18):
That's where I would alwaysjoke and say like, oh, the
Russians, yeah, there must beengineers.
And, by the way, notice howinteresting fields that have
nothing to do with emotions,fields that have nothing to do
with accessing those creative,playful energies that are part
of being a human being.
They're accessing the brain,the prefrontal cortex.
(18:39):
The rest is cut off.
And that, for sure, was myexperience, and it's kind of
ironic because people was jokingto me like you know I was.
I have a musical part to me.
I played a trumpet when I wasin high school and college and
when I mentioned certain thingswe were like well, didn't you
become a computer scientist?
I'm like no, I didn't.
In fact, you know Jigels askedme earlier about sort of the
journey.
(18:59):
You know I went, grew up inBrooklyn, came to America.
I was 11, grew up in Brooklyn,went to public schools, went to
one of the city universities inNew York and only then I was
like you know what?
I think I want to be aprofessor in college, love to
teach.
I really enjoyed.
I was a tutor in college whereI was at school and I was like I
think I would like to teach andI enrolled in PhD program in
(19:21):
UCLA.
I had a full scholarship and Iwas like that's it.
You know, I'm 23, like I'mbright pastures on their way,
and all of a sudden I was likewait a second, something's
really missing right now in mylife and that, you know, kind of
began my own journey and justpersonal spiritual realms, and I
totally re-oriented it.
(19:41):
I was like, okay, I'm going togo to law school.
And then, you know, find myselfin law school, I graduate, I
start working, and then you know, then sort of giving you very
quick jumps but fast forward,and then you know, seven years
later my wife was inviting me totherapy and there was a therapy
and I'm like can we do a bigdo-over now?
As I accessed all of this pastand processed and thought about
(20:04):
what was driving the decisions.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
So many people who like want the do-over and
because there are no truedo-overs, they also don't do
like the reset.
How could you, how did youallow yourself to do the reset
knowing there's no do-over?
You're not going back to 23,.
You know there's a sunk costfallacy, almost Like I can have
a good career as a lawyer, I canbribe over my kids.
(20:27):
Like how do you risk that forpursuing your passion?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
So this is going to take us into, in my opinion, to
a probably fairly complexconversation.
Looking back at my own journey,what I would say now to people
or somebody who reached out tome for input you know, advice,
perspective is I would say thatif you're finding yourself in a
place where you're like, wait,I'm, at this point in my life
(20:55):
I'm supposed to sort of like Isaid sunk cost, Like I'm
supposed to sort of discard allof this and now move on, that
question itself, I think, iswhat creates the paralysis to
not move forward, and I believethat that question is the wrong
question To me.
The way I reoriented away fromthat question and I think this
(21:16):
is ultimately will touch thepiece you want to know about the
intuitive decision making.
For me, the question came toclarity into the following form
what am I supposed to do with mylife now?
Not what should I do with mylife now, Because I did this for
10 years.
(21:37):
Because I went to school,because I have these student
loans, and instead the questionbecame if I have today, what am
I supposed to do with today?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
So how did you get to the question of now?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
The way I got this question is oh man, this is good
.
Wow, now that you're asking it,I'm actually remembering.
Oh okay, I have to tell youthis.
So you guys will decide.
If you want to shred it, dowhatever you want to do, but I
have a feeling you're gonna lovethis, it's 2014.
I'm at my second law firm andon Wednesday I'll never forget
(22:12):
this On Wednesday in August JulyI have this feeling I'm gonna
get fired.
Don't ask me.
Talk about intuition, by theway.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
I'm gonna get fired.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
Friday, the managing person in the office, who's not
an attorney, was just itselfpart of the problems that I saw
in the firm and I became vocalabout the things I felt were.
There were ethical issues and Ibecame vocal.
That's why I started becomingconcerned.
Friday surely enough calls meto the office in the morning.
It says today's your last day.
I'll never forget it.
(22:46):
I looked at her, I smiled and Igot up and I went to my office,
put all my stuff in the boxlike literally like a movie
scene, walked to my car and wenthome.
A month later, August 1st 2014,I opened my own law firm.
Now, why am I telling you this?
Two years later, I get a phonecall from the named partner of
(23:08):
the law firm and says hey, Igor,it's me, Do you remember me?
I said, yeah, Now, I had noproblems with this person.
He wasn't involved, which,again, was part of the problem.
And he says to me I'm closingthe firm and I'm being
investigated by the ethicscommittee.
Can you be my lawyer?
Oh my gosh, oh, and I defend Ihave a chance everywhere.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
My head feels like, like.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
It feels like my hair is sticking up on my neck, oh
my goodness, and I representedthis lawyer in front of the New
York State grievance committeein the case.
And when I reflect on thatmoment, do you imagine in my
darkest moment?
I'm fired, I have three kids.
I'm driving home like honey.
I don't know how I'm gonnabreak this news to you.
(23:52):
It's Friday.
I'm driving home To waking uptwo years later and be like I'm
representing the guy in front ofthe grievance committee.
I could have been sitting nextto him in that seat If the
person who I at that momenthated, who fired me, turned out
to be my salvation.
So talk about stepping back andallowing ourselves to see a
(24:13):
bigger picture of life.
Right, talk about stepping back, but anyway.
So now to tell you thefollowing.
So there's that month windowwhere I'm like what am I going
to do?
I start my own firm.
I don't have enough clients, Idon't have a book of business.
What am I going to do?
And during that month, I startedjogging on the boardwalk.
We lived in Farakoy, new York.
(24:34):
We lived very close to theocean and I was like I got to
start running again.
I start running and I go onYouTube and I'm like let me find
some inspirational videos.
And first thing pops up LesBrown.
Who the heck is Les Brown?
I have no idea.
I just press play and I startrunning and all of a sudden I
just hear a voice of somebodywho was speaking to my soul.
(24:55):
It wasn't like all right, youknow, I got to sign up for Tony
Robbins date with Destiny.
Let me try to.
It wasn't like that.
It was just like let me justclick on something and the
universe somehow decided to lineit all up for me and I start
running and I start listening tothem every single day, and just
the messages he kept saying.
(25:15):
I was like this is me, I needthis.
And one of the things he wassaying I mean there's many
amazing messages, but one ofthem simply was that message was
will you just be some someonethat passes through this world
and you're forgotten, or willthe world remember why you came
this way?
And I asked myself why did Icome this way?
(25:39):
Why am I here?
And all of a sudden, with thatpressure of the student loans,
and you know, that's it I'vemade myself a path.
I'm a lawyer.
Now it began to ease its gripon me and I was able to allow
myself to introduce a newquestion but why am I here at
(26:02):
this moment?
What impact am I supposed tomake at this moment?
And is my current toolbox cutout for the journey where I am
now?
And then I started being ableto say to myself wait a second,
I don't think I can do with whatI have, what I want to do next.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
And tangibly we're talking about like a lot of
degree right, and those kinds ofthings.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
And as I was able to loosen that grip of that's it,
my fate has been decided for me.
You better stick with law tillyou retire, because that's what
you've decided to do.
I was able to let go of thatgrip, let it sort of hover in
the background and now startasking the new although scary
but new and important questionslike what am I supposed to do
(26:52):
now?
And what began to slowlysurface.
Was this internal conversationmeant to make an impact in the
world?
I can make an impact in theworld, great.
How am I going to do this?
Speaker 1 (27:05):
That's extraordinary.
Can you just tell our listenershow roughly, how old you were
when you went for that run that?
Speaker 3 (27:14):
run was when I was 34 years old and about eight years
later.
Imagine this, eight years later, of running and I'm still
running.
Eight years later that here I amsitting in December, god
willing, will graduate in mymaster's program as marriage
family therapist and then,hopefully, will pursue a PhD.
(27:36):
I already have two subjectsthat I'm very passionate to
explore more about on the PhDlevel and in the world of
relationships.
I can give you a sneak previewOne is self-esteem and one is
religious trauma, and both ofthese subjects is what's already
hovering for me.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And then, how old would you be when you're
starting the PhD?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
Theoretically, I would be 43.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I think, that's important for our listeners.
So that story, really it justshows so many different moments
where you made some reallyimportant decisions that, for
(28:26):
lack of a better way of puttingit like almost didn't feel like
it came from you.
You know, like it just was,like it was almost like you were
being guided, or I use a phrasethere, so just use it yesterday
and therapy with a client whereI said it's like you're being
carried.
You know that's right.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
So you know what I would add to that.
I would describe it as apartnership.
The role that I played and thisI think for listeners would be
important to understand, therole that I played in my own
journey was getting out of myown way to allow myself to
become a vessel that couldreceive that deeper wisdom.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and then the wisdom entered Once I let go of
the ego.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
once I let go of agenda, what will others think
it's all ego?
And when you're able to justsay to the ego look, you're
going to have to step aside.
I need a few moments of truthwith myself.
I need this to be, you know, tobe put aside.
Then things began to answer,and one thing I want to tell you
, by the way, is I didn't flyoff the handle and close the
(29:28):
firm.
The firm is still open.
So for those who want to knowlike, well, but practically it's
like what am I going to do?
So, for example, in my ownjourney, what I did is just to
show you how zoomed in I becameon my dream.
Once it came to clarity, I tookmy own pay, cut my own, because
I own the firm and I hired anassociate attorney to offload my
(29:51):
case load and let him sort oftake over and manage the firm.
So I could take bigger stepback and I was then able to
focus responsibly on pursuing mypassion.
And so the firm is still openand I still have sort of
residual income from it whileI'm building my relationship,
(30:12):
coaching and got well therapypractice.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yes, and I love, love that you, that you bring up
this, these two or three factorsthat I hear all the time.
But I had all I have all thesestudent loans.
But I put in, I invested all ofthis time getting this degree,
all these, oh, it's just okay.
Well, what am I going to dowith today?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
That's right.
And that question is what Ifound sort of took me down that
elevator into the depth of theinternal demons and dragons that
needed to be slayed, which isand if I do this, these people
criticize me, if I did this Iwon't have approval anymore from
my parents and if I do that,that people will think I'm crazy
(30:57):
.
I was able to kind of slicethrough fear, all these things I
had to slice through, until Ifinally could get to that really
core question of I'm in theworld right now.
What is my purpose?
Why am I here?
Speaker 1 (31:13):
now.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
And the only thing that kept coming to me was
you're now in the world to playsome small role in healing it.
And I asked so how will I dothat?
What little mark will Igor makein this world?
And to me, all roads pointed tothe phone.
Here's the irony.
Maybe all those years you spentas a lawyer are meant to serve
(31:39):
you now as well.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And they will serve in the new capacity.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
This is so incredible .
And but for those of, for thosepeople who are listening to our
podcast, who really can't seeyou, right, whether you know,
because maybe they're not localto you or maybe they don't have
the budget, the budget for it,what, what, what can you leave
our audience with around?
(32:06):
What they can do on their ownto nourish, nurture their own
relationships?
Speaker 3 (32:16):
So Harvel Hendricks and Helen Honda, the founders of
a model therapy, wrote a seriesof books.
One of the books is now workingon the relationship.
It's great books, each onefilled with exercises as you go
through the chapters.
They wrote a book on how to doparenting and then they wrote a
(32:36):
book for singles, and so I wouldhighly recommend looking at two
books Getting the Love you Wantand Keeping the Love.
You Find One of them.
I don't remember it now off thetop of my head.
One of them is for singles andit's a fantastic read.
I went through it verycarefully after I've done all
the work with my wife, just tosee kind of what would it be
(32:59):
like to be recommending it, andit really takes you on this
really awesome roller coasterjourney into your childhood.
It has all kinds of surveys andquestions for you to really
explore and for those who justkind of want to develop more
self-awareness, as they rightnow want to take advantage of
their single time as singles andto understand themselves better
(33:23):
and through that experiencealso be able to really bring to
more clarity when I do want todate, when I'm ready for a
relationship, if I want topursue one, what things now I
could have in my consciousnessand therefore just make a more
quality decisions than sort ofstumble and fumble through
(33:43):
relationships and hope I get theright one.
So I would highly recommendthose.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Thank you.
And then also, you have yourown podcast, as I mentioned.
So so, where can, where can ourlisteners find you?
Speaker 2 (33:59):
It's completely your time now, Igor.
Tell us about your podcast,your practices, anything anyone
should go for.
Let's hear the pitch.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Ok.
So the podcast is called theDating, marriage and Divorce
Conversations.
You could find that on Spotifyand on Apple.
I basically talk abouteverything through.
You know every, every phase ofsomebody's relationship life.
It's great content.
The episodes are meant to be 15to 30 minutes long.
(34:27):
I have a few sort of outliersthat are much longer, but most
episodes are shorter for areason.
They tend to be very on point,not dense, but very on point,
very just kind of powerfulencounters with subjects that I
just find are constantlyrecurring themes in the realm of
relationships.
(34:48):
Oh, my goodness, that's soexciting that people can find
yeah, yeah, and usually peoplelisteners, I regularly get all
kinds of feedback like all out,that I really needed to hear
that, or wow, I never heard that.
Thank you for crystallizing theconcept and helping me see how
this is playing out in myrelationships, like these are
very typical feedbacks that Ireceived.
(35:08):
So the content the podcast forsure is great content in that
regard and you know, today Ipretty much focus on doing
relationship work and today mostcouples that work with me work
with me in sort of one or twotracks either.
it's sort of come as you wishbasis.
(35:29):
So you know somebody wants asession, they reach out to me,
they schedule something and wejust do like a one off.
And then there's couples whocome in who really want to do
like a deep dive experience, andthe more I was getting those
requests, the more what sort ofcrystallized for me is what I
call a 12 week program, which islike a really immersive
(35:50):
experience.
We kind of go through 12pillars dimensions that I find
are like the main stays ofrelationships and offer all
sorts of sort of backgroundsupport.
I usually form like littleWhatsApp groups with each couple
so they could kind of access methroughout the week.
In between sessions I give themhomework assignments and it's
(36:13):
sort of meant to be.
I call it give me three monthsfor the rest of your life versus
sort of touch and go.
Is this virtual?
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Yeah, yeah, and or in person yeah.
So people who are local.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
I'm mostly in Phoenix , arizona, so people who are
local like to come into theoffice.
But at this point I havecouples around the country and
most people aren't Zoom andagain, what I find awesome is
that they're talking to eachother.
So my absence, you know,physically from the room, I
believe you know, does not takeso much away, you know, from
(36:46):
their relational experiences,because, at the end of the day,
they're talking to each other.
I'm just facilitating theirexperiences.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
And if any of our listeners are interested in your
services, how can they find you?
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I mean, the easiest would be email Igorigor at
relationshipreimaginedcom.
The email is usually theeasiest and we'll put that in
the show notes.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:06):
And my phone is also easy.
People, what's happening?
All the time it's a646-725-8081.
People are welcome to reach outto me that way as well.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
I feel so grateful for this conversation.
Yeah for sure.
I don't even have.
I'm like a little bit evenspeechless, and people that know
me really well are kind of likeyou don't have any words, yeah
it's just incredible.
So thank you for even just goshyour openness and your
willingness not just to come onthe podcast.
(37:40):
Just like in life in general,it's just like you're such a
refreshing human being.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
And your clients are really are in really good hands
with you.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Well, okay, fantastic this is.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I'm so glad to have met you.
I am so excited to keep intouch with you.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Sure, it's so nice to meet you.
Also, surprise, we're friends,that's right.
Love it, love it.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Nothing like fellow travelers.
Yeah, that's right, it'sincredible.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Thank you for having me.
We appreciate it Very good.
We want to thank you so muchfor listening to today's episode
.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like
subscribe, rate and review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us at intuitivechoicespodcast atgmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out atintuitivecounselingofphillycom.
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