20: Exploring Open Marriage | Ditching an Ideology for an Authentic Relationship to Happiness

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Could an open marriage be the key to a happier, more fulfilling relationship; married or single? Join us as we welcome Brig and Monica Tisson, a couple who after 12 years of monogamy decided to redefine the boundaries of their partnership or "Team" as they call it. Their journey is not only about opening up their marriage but also about the incredible personal growth they've experienced along the way. From childhood friends to life partners, Brig and Monica share their story of reconnection and the challenges that led them to question traditional norms.

As life threw unexpected hurdles in their path, including health issues and fertility struggles during the COVID pandemic, Brig and Monica found their relationship tested in unimaginable ways. They speak authentically about the emotional journey of dealing with a brain tumor, the strain of fertility treatments, and how these experiences reshaped their views on intimacy, family planning and living life happy and fulfilled. The arrival of their son renewed their bond, yet they realized the importance of evolving together through each stage of life. Their candid reflections reveal the significance of letting go of preconceived notions and embracing change for personal and collective well-being.

Venturing into the realm of open relationships brought Brig and Monica to new frontiers of intimacy and self-discovery. They discuss the liberation found in questioning societal taboos, exploring new dynamics, and the continuous journey of setting intentions and maintaining transparency. Although they remain clear their journey through this exploration is not complete; their story is a testament to the courage it takes to redefine love and happiness on one's terms. Through thoughtful conversations and shared experiences, they invite listeners to prioritize authenticity, embrace the messiness of life, and pursue fulfillment in all its forms.

Thank you for listening and look forward to what's next on the other side. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome back to the intuitive mentor mom podcast,
where we explore strategies forgrowing confidence, empowerment
and gaining clarity for midlifemoms.
When life is happening for youand not to you, you can be
living the life of freedom, funand bliss.
I'm your host, tara Michelle.
Let's get to it.

(00:22):
Welcome back to the intuitivementor mom podcast.
I'm excited to bring you thisshow.
Let's get to it.
Welcome back to the IntuitiveMentor Mom podcast.
I'm excited to bring you thisshow.
This is an exciting show.
I have two very special guestsbecause we're going to talk
about open marriage and, oh,happy New Year.
Y'all Welcome back to the newyear.
And I'm excited also becauseI'm planning to do a lot more
interviews this year and bringyou some just interesting topics

(00:46):
that we can chew on.
This one, in particular, issuper exciting because I have
two very special guests.
My well, I'm going to sayyou're my friends, my friends,
yes, greg and Monica Tissen.
So they've actually known eachother since they were nine years
old, y'all, nine years old.
They met in Vienna, virginia,and then, after college, they

(01:08):
reconnected.
They dated for three years.
They got engaged for one year.
They were married in 2017.
They moved to Texas Austin.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Maybe we shouldn't say that, don't want to say that
, okay, they moved to Texas.
They moved to Texas, that'swhere we live.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
They moved to Austin, texas, in 2017, and they have a
two-year-old little boy, andwe're going to talk about how
their monogamous marriage movedfrom monogamy into open only
about four months ago, which ismind-blowing to me, and how I

(01:42):
met them is through this journeythat they started four months
ago, because there's a mutualperson that we know together
about this journey, so it's kindof exciting, okay.
So, um, welcome to the show andthank you so much.
You guys, thank you for beingso excited.

(02:13):
Yeah.
I, I, you know I'll start off it.
It um so open marriage.
Yeah, I mean Thanks for havingus about this.
I pulled up there's severalsites that have different
statistics and as I startedgoing through them they were
roughly similar.
But at the same time I was like, yeah, but who are you Of the
2000 people you went and picked?
Did you cherry pick the 2000?

(02:35):
Or did?
you just, did you pick them frommiddle America?
Did you pick them from theWestern coast?
Like, I always get a littleconcerned when we talk about
statistics because we just don'treally know.
But what I didn't know is thatopen marriage was popularized in
1972 by George and NinaO'Neill's book that had the
title Open Marriage.
I don't know if you guys arefamiliar with that, but I want

(02:58):
to hand it over to you before Igo into all this stuff because
otherwise I'll just be blabbing.
But tell me a little bit aboutthe two of you you know how you
met.
Yeah, Tell us, tell us allabout you.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, so it's.
It's obviously been.
We've known each other for along, long time.
Grew up in the same hometown.
Our families are friends, oursiblings are friends.
I actually played baseball withMonica's brothers.
Our parents were friends, sowe've known each other for
forever, but we really we kindof went our separate ways in

(03:34):
high school.
We went down two differentpaths.
I was more of a jock.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
I was a theater nerd.
The theater nerd.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
So different friend groups and then two different
colleges, Right, and we kind oflost touch.
But after college it was therandom night at a bar 2 am run
into each other and, you know,hit it off again and reconnect
and I think I may have askedMonica on five to 10 dates

(04:02):
before she finally said yes.
And here we are, here we areMonica.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
why did it take so long?
Why did it take so many asks?

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Oh well, I was not really.
I always thought that he wasvery cute.
I thought that he was a reallynice person and a good person.
I was not looking for someonewho was interested in me
Seriously.
I was like having fun, I was,you know, doing my own thing and

(04:35):
my impression of his interestwas that it was serious Like
that.
It wasn't just to like casuallyhang out, and I didn't want to
play with anybody's emotions ifthey were into me and I was not
into them at that point and sohow old were you guys at that
time?
24, I think, yeah, yeah, 24.

(04:56):
Um, and then our mutual friendjust kept being like you should
just give him a chance, justgive him a chance.
He's so him a chance, he's sogreat and like, the more I would
see him, the more I actuallydid become interested in getting
to know him.
And so once the like thatbarrier was broken, he asked me
out again and I said, sure, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
And so tell me, what at that time?
What at that time was it thathad you be interested in her?
Yeah, what, what was it?
And then you kept pursuing likeI'm going to be about this.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, I think it was um.
I think every relationshipstarts with like the physical
attraction, Right and um, but wehad known each other for so
long and then, I don't know,maybe it almost became a
challenge, right, Because inthird grade I had this huge
crush on her, you like somebodyelse, Tommy Umberg, and um, you

(05:54):
know, won that battle, tommy, ifyou're listening, yeah, right.
But it was.
It was more so.
Just why is this person notinterested in me, right?
And you know, just give me ashot at a drink, and so, and
then, obviously, once it did, itall played out, and here we are
married 10, 15 years later.

(06:15):
I mean, it's been a long time.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Yeah, and I will say, it did only take one date.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:20):
I went on a date with him and I was like I don't want
to see anybody else, yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
I went on a date with him and I was like I don't want
to see anybody else.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
It's like I only want to spend time with this person.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Yeah, and what was?
What was it about that?
What was it about thatconnection between the two of
you, the chemistry, what, whatwas it that shifted?

Speaker 3 (06:34):
For me, it was the first person where it felt easy,
like I didn't have to like, Ididn't feel like I had to put on
a front.
I think some of that was likemy own maturity and what I
wanted out of a relationship andwhat I like, how I wanted to
present myself.
I think people spend a lot oftime trying to mold themselves

(06:55):
to become the person that theythink they want, whoever they're
interested in, to be.
And I went into this with Gregsaying, like he's going to take
me at a hundred percent who I am, or he's not going to like me
and I'm going to be fine eitherway.
And that first date we justwent for drinks and we laughed a

(07:18):
lot.
Conversation was super easy.
I do think that the fact that wedid grow up together.
You don't when you meet someoneyou're like, so tell me about
your family, tell me about yourhometown, tell me about, like
where you grew up.
For us it was like okay, canyou just catch me up on like the
last two years Like I knowbasically everything about you.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, we didn't have to go to the standard first aid,
like yeah.
What do you do for work?
You work with my sisters,literally at the Vnn yeah it was
just uh.
It was an easy connection anduh went smoothly from there yeah
, yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
So now here we are.
However many years into themarriage, how many years are we
into the marriage?
Uh, it will be eight thisspring.
Eight this spring.
But, you've been together forhow long?
I can't do math for shit.

Speaker 3 (08:06):
Almost 12 years, 12 years yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
So what happened?
I don't want to say whathappened, because it's not like
it's a bad thing, it's justsomething that you chose, but
what happened?
What happened that allowed youto, or caused you to explore an
open marriage?

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Yeah, yeah, and things definitely happened.
You know I look back at thebeginning of any relationship.
We talk about how it's thehoneymoon phase, right, and it's
so exciting, you're datingsomebody new, and there's always
the next stage of your life.
And this is a big thing aboutus is you're kind of taught what

(08:52):
life is supposed to look likeand what happiness is supposed
to look like from other people'sperspective, and you never
really question it, and so it'syou go to school, you go to
college, you get a job, you moveout, you start dating, you move
in together, you get marriedand you have kids, right, and
that's that's life.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
And so I want to interrupt and say that's a
program.
I don't know, that it's lifebut it's a program.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
It's for sure and it's.
I don't know where it stemmedfrom and why.
That's the way that peoplethink is life is supposed to
look like, but that's what it is, and so we're programmed to
believe yeah.
Yeah, um, but early on, I mean,we were in that honeymoon phase
and it was now we're moving outand there's, you know, we're
moving out, we're moving intogether, we're going on trips,

(09:38):
we're having so much fun, we'regoing to nice restaurants, and
it's you're getting the best ofeach other Always.
You're never getting negative,right.
And and at the same time, you're24 years old, you're
technically an adult, but you'restill a kid Like you, don't
have any concept of what youreally, what life is going to
look like and how things aregoing to change and how people
are going to change.

(09:59):
And so you know we were reallyand we are still happy.
But you know we were really andwe are still happy.
But you know, the beginning itwas just, it's all that
excitement, and you know, sureenough, you look up 10 years
later.
People have changed.
You don't change together.
Always you go through toughtimes and that you hadn't before
.
And so for us, you know, thosecouple of events happened a few

(10:22):
years ago where, right whenCOVID hit, I ran into a health
problem out of nowhere.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
We were trying to have a child.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
We were trying to have a child.
We were trying to get to thatnext step, yeah, that next idea
of what life is supposed to looklike.
That's going to keep that shine, right.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
I love that that's going to keep that shine.
Right um, and we read that.
I love that that's gonna keepthat shine yeah, in our minds,
yes, right like that's the nextthing.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
It's part of the program.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yes, um, and so some, some things came up.
I they actually, they found atumor in my head, um, which
affected a lot of things.
One, one in regards to ourfertility, and then two, it
really affected my mental side.
Right, I did not handle it well, you know, instead of kind of

(11:17):
leaning on Monica for help, Iturned to a different path.
I turned to a lot of alcohol, Iturned to a lot of drugs.
You know that, coupled in withCOVID going on, where we're just
stuck in the house, you know Iwas in a really bad place and I,
you know I look at that, I lookback and maybe it's just who I
am I kind of shoulder a lot ofpotentially where that a little

(11:41):
bit of separation came from,potentially where that a little
bit of separation came from, um,you know I put the blame on
myself there, um, but all thatsaid, you know that led to three
years of failed fertilitytreatments, which just for a
couple.
You know, if anybody's beenthrough that it's, it's
heartbreak after heartbreak.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, it's really challenging, yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
And I will say, during that time I do feel like
we got really close but, liketrauma bonding is not
necessarily the best way tobuild a relationship or like to
continue to grow a relationship.
To build a relationship or liketo continue to grow a

(12:30):
relationship, and I think thatthe blame he was putting on
himself later on blame I wasputting on myself for like
things to continuously not beworking for us, um, definitely
caused us to like it was just abreak.
It was a break in the way thatwe related to one another and
the other, the other.
I think really important pieceof this and people who are

(12:53):
whether you're trying to have akid recently or you've been
trying for a long time thephysical relationship between
you two becomes a job.
It is not fun, it is not likeemotional.
It is okay.
We have 24 hours to try to getpregnant, or once you start

(13:14):
going through a fertilitytreatment, it's you are not
allowed to have sex or you arenot allowed to be intimate with
one another because you'regearing up for this treatment,
and so that really shifted theway we related to one another in
not a positive way.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that, that intimacy.
It goes from fun and excitingto you know.
For us it was now this is a joband then it was well, why are
we even doing this if it keepsfailing?
Yeah, Right.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
What's the?

Speaker 2 (13:46):
point, and I think that it was such a drastic
change from that honeymoon phaseand we're onto the next step.
We had just bought a house,we're ready to start a family,
because, again, that's our ideaof happiness, and now it's
failing.
And so what is that next step?
And we're now, we're sad, andhow do we get out of that?
And so, you know, just, it wasa really tough time, um, I think

(14:11):
that it it caused some, someseparation, but fortunately, um,
it did end up successful.
We have the most beautiful sonin the world.
He is fantastic, perfect baby.
Um, you know, but even then itwas okay.
Now we're onto that next stepand we have all this excitement

(14:32):
and we're reinvigorated, and ourrelationship is back for nine
months, and then the baby comes.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
So I want to hold that.
Hold, let's put a pin there.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
I want to.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
I want to have you guys tell me and let's take a
look at, looking back at thatwhole journey of fertility what
was the biggest thing that youtook away from that, like in
terms of growth, like, if youlooked at it, from all of that
was happening for you, thatjourney that you went through.
What are the biggest things youlearned from that?

Speaker 3 (15:05):
I do think we had to let go of a lot of expectations
or preconceived notions aboutwhat our life will look like and

(15:26):
how we were going to get there.
So I think, as a woman, youhold on pretty tightly to this
idea that if you want to havekids that, like that, will look
a specific way.
Right, you will have sex withyour partner a few times and
then you will pee on a stick andyou will like be so surprised
and you will show it to them andit'll be so much excitement and

(15:48):
you will cry and you will havethis moment and then, like
you're gonna go through thiscommercials and I'm right
exactly, and I am literally likeI am doing none of those things
.
Instead, I'm injecting myselfwith drugs and I will never have
that moment.
I will never have thatexperience of being surprised to
be pregnant.
I will never have thatexperience of like surprising my

(16:09):
partner with something becausewe're on, we're on a shot clock
and so, um, we even.
We got to points where we wereprobably not really talking
about it, but I know I wasthinking a lot about well, I
ever get to be pregnant.
Are we going to have to go usea surrogate?
Are we going to have to usesomeone else's sperm or someone

(16:30):
else's egg to make our baby Likelike?
I think so.
If I were to take a positivelook at any of that, I let go of
a lot of these ideals that Ihad built up in my head as to
how you make a family, and Ilearned so much about kind of
like breaking the mold.
Maybe that is like kind of afoundational layer, to like what

(16:52):
allowed us to be open to anopen marriage, but like breaking
this mold yes.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
I'm hearing that exactly when you say breaking
the ideology, because I reallybelieve that this point in our
time, globally, spiritually,just as a construct of humanity,
we are breaking ideology down.
We are breaking it from thecorporate level to the religious

(17:21):
level, to the education level,every ideology is being broken
down.
Right now it is, it is, it iscrashing like a slow, you know
train wreck, just like, but Ithink what you said was so
beautiful because that's exactlywhat shifted.
And then you nailed it, cause Iwas and I'm sorry, I'll see

(17:44):
things as you guys are talking,but that's what I saw Like oh,
that's where that went, chink,which allowed this whole other
space for you to open up.
Because, if there's anything Iwant to share, just interject
here real quick.
So I've been dating for years.
I'm like one day he's going toshow up I don't know where he is

(18:05):
, but he's going to show upsomeday.
But years and I get that partof my journey on this planet is
all about relationships, fromfriendships to romantic, but
especially in the romantic area,and self-worth.
And if there's one thing I'mreally learning the last just I
think it's been the mostimpactful, probably the last
five years is that relationshipsare gray.

(18:27):
There is nothing black and whiteabout a single relationship on
this planet and the fact that wehave everything labeled inside
of a black and white containerwhen none of it fits.
And do we even know what loveis Like?
Do we even understand what thatmeans?
Do we even know what love isLike?

(18:47):
Do we even understand what thatmeans?
And I'm really learning to givepeople grace and allowance and
acceptance to go have whateverflippant experience you want to
have.
We are here to have experiencesand the moment we start pushing
them inside this box which, hey, if that's the box you want to
experience, have at it,Experience it.

(19:08):
Jump in that box, dive in it,swim in it, have fun in it.
But if you find that it doesn'tfit you, it's okay.
You can then get out of the box.
But we push ourselves in like,oh, that's not okay, that's not
okay, I have to keep doing thisthing that they say that we
should do, and it should looklike this.
It's like no, it, no it.
Just it doesn't look that way,okay.

Speaker 3 (19:34):
Okay, now back to.
I was going to say we're goingto come back to that concept for
sure Like, oh man, yeah, and sowhat for you, Brig?

Speaker 1 (19:40):
what did you see?
What's the biggest thing youtook away?
I love, I love Monica'sideology, Brig, what did you see
?
What's the biggest thing youtook away?
I?

Speaker 2 (19:48):
love Monica's ideology.
Brig, what was it for you aswell?
Yeah, I think the realizationof perhaps happiness doesn't
look like one certain thing, andwe had to reevaluate that.
I think that that was a bigpoint for us.
But the big thing for me waswhen all this happened.
I think we both shouldered a lotof blame, for different health

(20:09):
reasons, different lifestylereasons.
Why is this not working?
It's my fault, it's your faultand you can't help but do that.
But I think so initially itprobably drove a wedge, but then
, towards the end, it really Ithink that it moved us from a
marriage to a team.
Like we started looking at eachother as, hey, we're in this

(20:32):
together, right, this is notjust husband and wife.
Like this is my teammate righthere, and so you know.
We really had to kind of digeach other out of this well and
say, you know, hey, we're in atough spot right now, um, but
we're going to get through it,whether you know, regardless of
how that looks.
And so we still have that samementality right now.

(20:54):
We have a pretty unconventionallife we're living, but we look
at each other as we're trying tobe the best team possible.

Speaker 1 (20:59):
Yeah, so I think team or partnership team, team Team.
Team.

Speaker 3 (21:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
What's the difference between?
I want to know what yourdifference is between team and
partnership.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
I just played sports.
Yeah, I think that's mine.

Speaker 3 (21:18):
I think it's just like a little bit of our
mentality is that it's a team.
I do think that team allows forthere to be more than just the
two of us.
I think innately what thatmeans, or like easily what that
means, is our son is also a partof our team, sure, like he
doesn't know it yet but he is,he does, he does yeah and, like

(21:42):
he, he unknowingly contributesto the functioning of our team,
right, sure.
And so I think that maybe inthat way.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
No, absolutely.
And now other people are partof that team and helping with
this life experience.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
Life experience, whether it's friendships or
relationships, or even just likeyou know.
Anyway, I think that we have tooperate in a modus that is not
just we do not exist for eachother.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Sure, and then the reason I asked that is because
what I heard as you werespeaking, brig, is this
beautiful transition frommarriage to a distinction called
partnership, where it's, it's,um, it's so much bigger than a
marriage, it's so much bigger,you know, and I like the term

(22:37):
team.
I get that.
I get that.
I get that instinctively,intuitively, spiritually.
I get that as team, because weare all here as a team.
Little do we know, you know,and I always tell people, if you
were meant to do it by yourself, you'd be the only person on
this planet and unfortunatelyyou're not.
So we're here to be team, youknow, but we're also here in
partnership.

(22:58):
We're here in thisunderstanding of this, this give
and this take, this ebb andthis flow, this receive.
You know giving, receiving, buteven more so in allowance and
really allowing somebody tounfold.
And it sounds like, when I lookat your guys' journey, it

(23:18):
sounds like there's been thisreally beautiful divine
unfolding.
It sounds like there's beenthis really beautiful divine
unfolding, but there's somethingat the foundation of the two of
you that has allowed you toreally communicate and move
through it, because so manycouples do not make it through
any of that Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
So there's something really special about the two of
you.
I think that, if I caninterrupt, I think Monica did a
really good job of talking justwhat you're saying, how we
really hit like a fork in theroad and there was two different
, you know two differentdestinations for us and she just
said it a few weeks ago and itI think that every partnership

(24:05):
relationship is on thistrajectory to one of two places.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
The first is separation, like you don't end
up together for whatever reason,right, whatever reason.
And the second is settling forless than happy, which is
probably a really hard or maybea hard thing for people to hear,
but I think that it is entirelyunrealistic for you as a person

(24:42):
to expect one singular personto provide everything that you
need physically, emotionally andintellectually.
And I think that we've setrelationships I'm not going to
say marriages, relationships onthis pedestal to say that we

(25:04):
should be expecting this personto meet a hundred percent of our
interpersonal needs.
Yes, and so the settling comesfrom recognizing finally, kind
of like coming to terms with thefact that that person is not
going to do that for you and youdeciding that less than a
hundred percent is okay.
And for some people, like theythink that as a willing

(25:25):
sacrifice, this dog, um, theythink that as a like a noble
sacrifice, right, that thatthat's what love is.
I don't believe any of that.
I think that that settlingeither breeds the resentment
that causes a separation or justyou live less than happy, and

(25:47):
so we don't have to go fullyinto this yet, if you don't want
to.
But I think deciding to be inan open marriage was us choosing
a detour and we might still endup at one of those two
destinations separation orsettling like determining that

(26:07):
that is good enough for us.
But for now, we have recognizedthis lack of 100% happiness and
our partnership looks likerelinquishing control of that
and allowing other people tofill those buckets for us in
ways that we cannot do for oneanother.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
Okay, let's talk about that, cause that's a great
segue.
Again, you two are fuckingphenomenal because you know to
listen to you guys speak, and tolisten to you, monica, speak,
I'm like God, I know not at yourage.
God help me.
You know it's, it's not normal.
It's not normal.
You have a really um I don'teven know the words I'm trying

(26:52):
to bring, but it, it, you guys,are a product of how far we have
come as a global community.
Let's just say that.
Okay, it says a lot about yourparents, but it also says a lot
about who you are and you are aproduct of how far we're coming,
and that's.
I love seeing this and let'stalk about that.

(27:13):
You know what?
What was the day?
Take me back to it when youwere like, okay, we're going to
do this, and how did you feel?
Like, what did you have to getover?
And maybe you had nothing toget over.
Maybe you're like, okay, we'regoing to do this, and how did
you feel?
Like, what did you have to getover?
And maybe you had nothing toget over.
Maybe you're like, oh, let's dothis.
But I'm going to assert thatmaybe you were like stomaching

(27:33):
something of like.
Are you really going to explorethis?
Because what does that mean forme?
What are people going to thinkof me?
What are people going to thinkof us?
Like, what occurred in thatmoment?

Speaker 2 (27:44):
I think it's funny because it felt like it happened
like a whirlwind.
It felt like it came on soquickly.
But looking back, I think thatthe conversation actually
started quicker or earlier thanwe even imagined.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
I think that you know we got through our hard times
but we still felt unhappy.
And we go out and we look atpeople who are, you know,
sitting in restaurants or outand about and everybody feels it
seems like everybody's unhappyand we started to question a lot
about how that mindset of whatlife is supposed to look like

(28:21):
and all those ideals are justset into us, right?
And we started to question wheredoes that come from and who
made up these rules?
And why is that?
What happened?
You know, like once we had thebaby and then it's like okay,
now are we just parents.
And now we go and get old anddie of a disease and look back
and say this was a great life,like I didn't.
And we?
We felt like we had lost ouridentity, right?

(28:44):
We?
it went from us being young andfun and out and about, to now
we're just parents and we'restuck in the house, and it was
like that for two years and itwas quite depressing.
So we started to question a lotas to what.
What is happiness?

Speaker 3 (29:00):
Yeah, and what's our life?
What do we want our life tolook like?

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Is happiness the same for everybody?
Yeah, and what's our life?
What spark back in our life andaround intimacy?
That really led up to this, andI think that it gave us some

(29:32):
big answers to our questions.
I know for monica, I'd kind ofchange your mindset for sure,
just because we grew up in avery religious household.

Speaker 3 (29:46):
I am not religious at all anymore, but obviously that
upbringing ingrains in you thisconcept of Sin.
Yeah, first of all, just youknow, the physical aspect of

(30:25):
relationships is like acceptedbut also taboo.
It's like this bizarre thing.
But I think that I also wasquestioning aspects of my
sexuality.
I was questioning aspects oflike what is physical intimacy
to me and how does that relateto my partner and my partner's
needs within physical intimacy?
And so we started to, I guess,experiment explore, have
conversations around it reallystart to be more open with each
other.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Um, another taboo thing that we're open to talking
about we, you know, tried toadd in aspects in our love life.
Um, I know that we added in,you know, watching pornography
together and I think that thatclicked something in monica as
yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
What did?

Speaker 3 (31:05):
that click?
Yeah, for me it clicked.
I think, two important things.
One was this aspect of like.
I don't think that, like youknow, I don't think that I'm
homosexual.
I think that I'm probablysomewhere in the spectrum of
being bisexual, like I thinkthat women are beautiful and I

(31:28):
find them very attractive.
Yes, that which is superimportant to this second part,
which is I also found theconcept of being with more than
one partner in a sexualsituation to be very intriguing
to me.
Sure, and so we started to havea conversation about should we

(31:49):
have a threesome?
That sounds good to me.
Does that sound good to you?
What would that look like?
How would we do that?
Um, and it definitely opened upthat.
I guess it lifted the, liftedthe lid on this box that I
thought had to be kept reallytight.
My whole life Tight and quiet,yeah, yeah, it's like that's a

(32:13):
private thing.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
No, no, no.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
We were openly in front of our friends, like this
is something that we would loveto do, not with any of you,
because that would be weird, butalso maybe.
Yeah, if it happens, if ithappens.

Speaker 1 (32:28):
You know it's funny, you bring all that up.
So I used to teach back.
When I lived in Los Angeles Ihad a sensual movement course
that I taught with women and itwas designed to help women break
free of any constraints thatthey had around their body and
body image, but even to remove alot of this taboo stuff around
sex.
And one of the things I woulddo we'd go on a field trip and

(32:52):
we would buy fun sexual orsensual clothing.
So they'd have to dance,because it was a pole dancing
class.
But I also took them to stripclubs because I wanted them to
realize it's not a big, scaryplace.

Speaker 3 (33:08):
And I went to my first one.
What was six months ago?
Not even a year ago?

Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, and, and the majority of these women could
give a shit about your man andwhen your man is there, he's not
doing half the things you think, okay, know all this from
experience.
Or if he is, it's becausethere's something that you're
not doing at home that he wouldlike, that he's afraid to ask
for.

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
So there's all these things.
Well, what ended up happeningis all these women were like, oh
my God, I love coming, let's goagain.
And oh my God, I took myhusband and I took my boyfriend
and you know, it like becomesthis thing because it's, you
know, we, you know, I don'tthink that the issue they have,
this issue in Europe, becauseEurope is so much more open
sexually, but we have a messhere when it comes to sexuality,

(33:55):
sensuality, you know, I mean,from a young child, I was
dreaming about women andthinking that, you know, and I
grew up in a Catholic householdand you know, condemn, condemn,
condemn that sin, sin, sin.
And so when I was in my 20s andwhen I became quite wild in my
20s, I explored all that and itwas wonderful.

(34:17):
You know, I sometimes wonder ifwe're not all probably bisexual.
I mean hell like.
And who cares Like sexualfluidity?
And you know, I sometimeswonder if we're not all probably
bisexual.
I mean, hell like, who caresLike sexual fluidity?
And you know, but I prefer men.
I do prefer men, but like you,Monica, I am with the women and
I'm like, holy God, like when Iworked at the club and I would
watch these women dance.
It's stunning.
Women are so incredibly sensualand so incredibly beautiful,

(34:43):
like gorgeous, all shapes andsizes, and to really have people
that are so afraid to feel thatand get that for themselves.
It's just really like what'spossible, right, what's possible
inside of relationships when wecan remove all that stigma,
when we can remove all thattaboo bullshit.
But, anyways, thank you forsharing and so, yeah, so okay.

(35:08):
So there you were six monthsago.
You're at the strip club,you're talking to your friends,
you're being open, and so thenwhat?

Speaker 2 (35:14):
I think that we hit a point where you know we started
that communication and it waslike, yeah, let's, let's go and
experiment with this.
If that's something that you'reinto and you want to go explore
it, let's go try it.
But at the same time werealized it's not as easy as you
think.
Right, there isn't just a storeyou can go to where you're a

(35:36):
married couple and say, hey,come have a threesome with us.
It's a bit more difficult thanthat.
So for a long time it feltalmost just like this idea.
That was unattainable and itwas exciting to talk about, but
it didn't feel real until theperson that we call our witch
came into our lives.
It was a friend of a friend andyou know just some

(35:58):
conversations and a comment inpassing.
And you know just someconversations and a comment in
passing.
And you know one comment kindof stuck and it was the way I
explain it is, you know, if youthink about a movie where it
like zooms into your eyeball andlike a bird hatches out of an
egg and a volcano erupts, and itwas like holy shit, like this
may actually happen.
So I got to my car and ran homeand I'm like you won't believe

(36:22):
what just happened.
It kind of just came out ofnowhere and um, you know.
So I've never planned anythingas quickly as I did that.

Speaker 1 (36:33):
Um sure, I mean what was that like, monica?
What was that like um?

Speaker 3 (36:39):
so I think he, first of all, he came home and said
you know, we've been talkingabout this thing a lot.
Um, I think that I found aperson if you would be open to
it and I had also met thisperson too, yeah, and I was like
, oh, yeah, okay, I think, Ithink we could do that, and what

(37:02):
ensued over the next 48 hourswas a lot of conversation like
are we sure that this issomething that we want to do?
What will it look like?
what will some of the parametersbe, um, between us and then
between this other person.
We roll.

(37:24):
You know, us and this personare in a very similar circle of
people and so we don't want tomess that up.
And ultimately, I think, I justI think I might've said
something like I mean, theopportunity is here.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
Like what?
Why wouldn't we do this?
So don't, don't talk about it?

Speaker 3 (37:45):
be about it.
Why wouldn't we do this?
Um and so you know, we picked aplace, we went to drinks before
we, the three, of us had aconversation where we set
guidelines for what was okay ornot okay for either of us, and

(38:08):
then the experience itself wasjust lovely.
I had a wonderful time.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
I heard it was a lot of fun.
Oh, it was very fun.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
And I think Brig talks about this as a pivotal
moment, not because, like, wehad this sexual experience that
we had never had before, I hadnever had before.
That had been kind of swirlingin my mind, mainly about I have

(38:49):
never thought sex was emotionaland but I had also only had sex
with people that I had somelevel of emotional intimacy with
, and so this was my first timeexperiencing sex with a partner
who I have emotional intimacywith and with someone I do not,
and I walked away from thesituation having zero jealousy,

(39:14):
like just able to enjoy theexperience for what it was.
It affirmed that like, yes, Ihave some level of attraction
towards women, but that thischanges nothing about the way
that I feel about myself, theway that I feel about my partner
and it I don't know, I guess.

(39:35):
I guess that it was especiallygroundbreaking because we're
married, like this idea that Icould be physically intimate
with someone else while we'remarried and it's not disruptive
to our marriage.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And it also causes us to justreally overly communicate, like
leading up to that.
I mean we had been goodcommunicators before, but
leading up to an experience likethat, where a lot's on the line
and could be super emotional,could be jealousy, could be like
detrimental in some people'seyes.
but it really caused us to sitdown and talk and give each

(40:10):
other an out, give each other aplatform to talk about that, and
so I think that that's anotherbig piece to this.
Today, where you know our lives, we just rely on exhaustive,
exhaustive communication to makesure that we're both in a good
spot.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Which is that's phenomenal.
Would you say now, today, thatyou see sex more sensually, or
is it still?
How do I say that?
I want to say it's not, theword's not transactional, it's
not that, it's um.

(40:50):
I guess the question is what.
What else has opened up for youwhen you look at the act of sex
and sensuality with partners?
I think it can be collapsedwith love, and it doesn't mean
that there's love.
It can be a sensual exchange ofenergy.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
I think that you both are saying and I think that sex
is sensual with people, thatyou are sensual with, or there's
love involved with people youfeel loved or like it's.
It can also just be more of twoadults having fun.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
Right and experience yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
I call it a.
You know, sometimes it's just avery, very, very intimate
handshake.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Skin touching and so so it can go either way, but you
know it's.
I think that we were both ableto completely remove this idea
that marriage or partnership orrelationships revolves around
ownership, revolves aroundownership.

(42:08):
And you know, I don't thinkthat this, I own this woman and
that I should be the only personthat she looks at or thinks
about or talks about or has sexwith.
We remove that mindset, and so,you know, I look at it as if
she wants to go be fulfilled ina physical way.
There's no, I have no issuewith that.
That makes sense.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
I think the other thing too, that I think that it
has made our physical intimacybetter.
I think we, first of all ourexperiences with other people
can sometimes be the backdrop tonow our experiences with one
another.
I think the other thing iswe're pretty intentional about

(42:52):
after we've been with someoneelse, coming back together as a
way to kind of like, reaffirmour partnership, reaffirm our
partnership.
But I also think that I talkI've talked a lot about in our
conversations like this conceptof like.
Not everybody can fulfill you ahundred percent Right, and so,

(43:12):
if we just take the physicalintimacy part of that, our
physical relationships withother partners often fill a
piece of our physicalrelationship with one another
that we don't really like togive to each other.
Right Like there are certainthings sexually that are just
like not my favorite thing to do, or I just, you know, like

(43:35):
don't turn me on, so I don'treally want to be a part of that
, and vice versa.
And so if we can find somebodyelse who provides that for us or
gives us that physical intimacyin a way that our partner does
not, we're no longer holdingeach other to this like.
Sometimes it feels like anobligatory, like I have to do

(43:59):
this.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
I have to do this.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
I have to do this because otherwise who else is
going to do this for them?
Like it, he is much more of aphysical person than I am too,
and so say more about that.
What do you mean?
I have never had a very highsex drive, so I do not.

(44:24):
I do not seek physical intimacyoften, and I think that that
has been sometimes the source ofsome contention in our
relationship, like I think thatwas more during the time.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
yeah, not to cut you out, I think that was more
definitely more during the timeof when sex was a chore yeah.
You know, I was trying to havechildren and I think that that
became not an issue, butdefinitely you know, kind of
drove that idea that you know,maybe that's something that I'm
much more driven by.

Speaker 3 (45:00):
Yeah, but I even think too after having a kid,
sure Like you're just tired atthe end of the day.

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Oh yeah, and your hormones change, like everything
shifts when you have a baby,and so it just takes.
It takes the pressure off.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Yeah, I feel like, and so maybe this is more me,
and one of the things that I'vegained out of this is I feel
like a lot of the pressure isoff and that we get to be with
each other in ways like that aremore fulfilling to ourselves
and our relationship.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
I do and I don't.
I don't want to jump ahead ofyou, Tara, but I do, you know a
lot of the a lot of theconversation has been geared
around that physical aspect.
But and it's funny becausethat's the reaction that we get
from when we, when we're veryopen about this to friends,
strangers, you know, you knowhow guys are their first

(45:52):
reaction is oh dude, how did youpull that off?

Speaker 1 (45:54):
that's amazing, yeah, you're going, yeah, yeah it's.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
That's an a small aspect of it, is that physical
side, but it's more so you knowbeing out, being able to go out
and experience life you know,and so yes there's physical
attributes where maybe we're notfeeling for each other, but
also, you know, it'sconversationally or hey, I met
this person who challenged me ina different way.

(46:20):
Or I'm going to go to thisconcert with this person that
you wouldn't usually go to orsomething like that.
So yes, there's the physicalaspect, and that's what
everybody thinks of of an openmarriage, but for us it was more
.
We want to take our identityback and be able to go and enjoy
life and I'm just gonna sayit's, it's the removal of
ownership.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.

Speaker 3 (46:41):
And I think that, if you're to look at and I am no
expert and have done basicallyno research on this, but, um, I
mean, marriage was aboutownership.
It was basically you wereclaiming a woman for property,
and so this concept of ownershipin a relationship, or being

(47:08):
like beholden to a single person, is, first of all, whack.
Second of all, is not going tobreed positive relationship.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, and you think about yes, and.
And then you think about inamerica, I mean, when we look
back, we look back at like aroyal situation it was all about
.
It was all about the allianceof families and families, money,
and there were all kinds ofpartners with those people that
were married to fulfill whateverneeds needed to happen.

(47:44):
Now here in America we have awhole different context of it,
like ownership.
I'm actually reading this book.
I now forget the name of it,but it comes from a very
religious context of marriageand it's actually breaking it
down and it's more about apartnership and it's more about
the support of one another andit's still in the whole biblical
form.
But it's interesting because,yeah, again, nothing is black

(48:10):
and white, it's all gray.
And when we look at marriageand I think maybe it's because
marriage is on its way to beredefined today, moving away
from this ownership, becausethere are a lot of conveniences
with the fiscal aspect ofmarriage in this country,

(48:31):
there's benefits and thenthere's a lot of lack of
benefits, like you talk aboutdivorce, that's like a whole
nother, like insane, as we knowpeople moving through that and
state to state.
You know a lot of people getroyally screwed in that process
around ownership and financialownership, and whose is what I

(48:52):
mean.
So I feel like we and you guysare really at the probably
forefront of this redefinitionof what marriage looks like.
This redefinition of whatmarriage looks like and can we
walk through marriage till death, do us part, so they say,
removing all the ideology aroundit and having it be

(49:14):
unconventional?
Because one of the things Ialways say, too lately in the
past few years, anybody whochooses to be with me, that I
choose to take to be with me,has to know that it will be very
unconventional.
I don't live a conventionallife.
I'm a full-time single parent.
I'm not changing for anybody,nor do I want anybody to change
for me.

(49:35):
I'm not looking for somebody tomove in and like be the person
that lives here with us, likeI'm not looking for any of that
I'm looking for.
I know what I'm looking for,but it's very unconventional,
you know, because a lot ofpeople are like let's just be in
a relationship right away andit's like dude, I just met you,
I just met you.
Could we just get to know eachother please, because I just met
you and just tell me you wantto get laid, because if I'm not

(49:55):
in the mood, don't try it.
I really do, like the wholeworld of dating right now is
really funny, cause that's whatI that's.
The first thing I say is like,what's your intention?
Because I might be interestedin your intention, but I know
what I want and if I'm notinterested, then I'm.
We're not on the same page, andso it's, it's, it's.

(50:16):
It's like we're redefining andwe're re-experiencing and we're
re-sorting through what thismeans marriage, partnership,
marriage with kids and now we'regoing to bring other people
into the fold of the team.
So I want to talk about thattoo, and I know like I have no

(50:36):
time limit on this, but and Iknow we have a time limit on
time that we're on here but Iwant to get into there are new
people in your lives, yeah.
So let's talk about that, let'stransition.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
I think, to transition to that it would be.
You asked a question earlierthat I want to answer as part of
this transition, which is likewhat challenges like or what
kind of barriers did you have tobreak down to get to this point
?
The biggest one for me was, andthe biggest thing that our

(51:06):
closest friends are concernedabout or ask questions about is
like well, what happens when youcatch feelings for someone else
?
And so for me, when we startedmoving from this concept of like
, I recognize that I am not I'mactually not a threesome person.
I don't really like to beshared, I would like to be

(51:28):
prioritized and so and so.
So what that meant for us waslike, but we did like to have
these experiences and it kind ofopened that like was the.
It opened it.
And so, when we started to talkabout like, well, that like was
the it opened it.
And so, when we started to talkabout like well, what if you
continue to see this person thatwe have now seen together but
I'm not interested in seeing herlike is what's going to happen

(51:54):
if you start to like like herand or if she starts to like you
?
And I think that what I had tobreak down personally, was this
idea of, just like you can bephysically intimate with
multiple people and those meandifferent things to you you can

(52:17):
be emotionally intimate withmultiple people and and I don't
think that that needs to be aharm to a person you are already
emotionally intimate with Ithink that we don't.
We we use this concept of likecatching feelings or falling in
love as if it only happens withthis one person.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
Like your, your soulmate in this whole world
happened to grow up 10 minutesfrom you.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
I think we fail to recognize that we actually have
so many people we areemotionally intimate with.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (52:56):
We love our family in a specific way and have
emotional intimacy with them ina specific way.
We love our friends in aspecific way and have emotional
intimacy with them in a specificway.
We love our friends in aspecific way and have emotional
intimacy with them.
I don't.
I mean we talk about work wivesand work husbands.
You establish emotionalintimacy with people you work
with.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (53:14):
And sometimes that turns into physical intimacy and
that's tends to be where itcauses problems for people.
But the reality is you buildthese relationships, yes, and so
what he challenged me a lot onwas what if that happens?
He didn't tell me what I shouldthink.

(53:34):
He was just like.
Okay, I'm going to answer yourquestion with a question what if
that happens?
And it caused me to reallythink about like I don't know
and I don't really have anyagain reason not to Well, and
you have nothing to go against.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
It's like this is all new territory for all of you,
all of you, all of you, becauseI think there's a four.
Right, there's four.

Speaker 3 (54:03):
Yes, greg is seeing someone and I am seeing someone.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Yes.
And so and maybe that I don'tknow much about your half,
monica.
Maybe that's something he'sdone before, but I mean that's,
it's all new territory.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Yeah it really is.
And so, talking about yourquestion of you know what are
your intentions, it's reallytough to balance because you
know we we try to be, we aregood people, right, and we don't
want to hurt anybody's emotions, we want to keep everybody's
thoughts intact and, and youknow, balance all of that.

(54:41):
But at the same time, you knowwe joke that we've been alive
for 35 years, we've run intoalmost every situation out there
.
We know how to handle them andnavigate them cleanly.
This is brand new and sothere's no guide as to what the
hell we're doing.
So you know, as much as we wantto give a clear answer as to
what our intentions are, we haveno fucking idea for the most
part, and we're figuring thisout, just as these other two

(55:03):
people are, and so every singleday is kind of a learning like
situation, not to mention andI'll bring this up because I
know I know a lot but I don'tknow everything.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
I know a lot but the other piece is then managing
with, with the people thatyou're seeing I like this People
that you're seeing Thennavigating and managing your own
emotions that show up in theconstruct of relationship and

(55:37):
what our ideology ofrelationship is, because you're
married, they're not, and thenwe have to remove all like you
can't expect anything outside ofanything Like you can't say you
.
You can't go date other people,you're married, and I'm not

(55:58):
saying that this is what you're,that you're what you're doing,
but I'm saying this is the stuffthat comes up, just as human
nature, because we areconditioned to believe that it
has to look this way.
And then, all of a sudden, youhave these emotions and these
feelings coming up and you'relike wait a minute, wait a
minute, wait a minute, wait aminute.
And it's like, yeah, no, youwait a minute, you both have to
wait a minute, you both have tosimmer down because now you have

(56:22):
to deal with what is that evencoming up?
What insecurity, what fear,what void are you filling, like
all that human stuff?
And that's where I think thisstuff gets really powerful and
juicy, because this is whenyou're really breaking down who
you are and really fallinginside of your own truth and

(56:47):
having to remove all kinds oflayers of shit that you may not
have even known was there yeahyeah, until it got triggered by
this, by this experience thatyou're walking for sure.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
I mean, the the emotional aspect has been the
biggest thing to balance here,and I think that it did start
with that question where, afterthat one night experience, it
was you know well, what if wewere to go see somebody on our
own and questioning what doesthat, what does that feel like
to you, right?
And then that starts toquestion of, well, what if

(57:19):
emotions happen and they'regoing to right?
We went into this saying, allright, we can have unemotional
sexual encounters.
At the end of the day, you'rehuman and hanging out with good
people, and you are also, onceyou start dating, you go back to
that honeymoon phase that we'retalking about, where
everything's exciting right andso for us, where we went through

(57:41):
years of tough times.
Then we went through two yearsof just being parents and locked
in the house during COVID andnow, all of a sudden, you're
going out and having these newexperiences, these new
conversations.
You're getting challengedmentally, you're going to get
emotions.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
It's going to happen.
Yeah, One of the things that wehave been very intentional with
in our relationship with eachother and our relationship with
other people.
We set some very specific rules, um, that need to be followed
so that the intentions are veryclear from the start.

(58:19):
And so that we are establishingan open line of communication
and like letting each other know, kind of, where we are with
these other people.
So one of the main rules is wedo not hide our situation.
Like within the first fiveminutes of meeting someone like,

(58:44):
or initial conversation thatyou ever have with someone new,
we have to say I am married, Iam in an open relationship, I
have a kid, like I'm not goingto pretend to like, establish or
create whatever this couldeventually be under the guise of
some kind of like lie or hidingRight, and I think that that

(59:07):
has been a much easierconversation for me to have with
men than it is for him to havewith women.
Interesting, interesting.
I mean the person that I'mseeing is like, yeah, no, this
is great.
I don't think I ever want toget married and I know I never
want to have kids.
And I was like great, because Iwill provide neither of those
things for you.
Let's just keep hanging out,right.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Yeah, I would say yeah, it turns out.
If you want to make your lifeless stressful, it doesn't help
to add in more emotions and morepeople all the time.

Speaker 1 (59:49):
Yeah, Right, Well, you know, and I'll I'm sorry go
ahead.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
No, no, no, no no no go, I just you know it has.
I always joke about it withMonica where you know.
Now I feel like we're kind ofboth just seeing one person each
, but before it was much easierfor Monica to walk up to a group
of guys and be like hey, do youguys like no-tie sex?

(01:00:14):
And you know, do you?

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
like hot women that you don't have to you know have
any part of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
And the answer is yes , and like if I walked up to a
group of women and said that Iwould probably be arrested.
There's a very differentdynamic for the two of us.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
That's true, and and and again.
That falls under ideology,which is unfortunate, which is
very unfortunate and I think Ithink in our children's age
maybe your son, maybe not somuch in my son it'll be very
much opening.
It'll probably be for my sonIt'll be like this conversation
right here, but for your sonit'll probably be wide open and
those ideologies really brokendown you know and and dissolved

(01:00:54):
and um, yeah, it's, it'sfascinating, you know, and I I
get to watch one of those people, I get to watch the journey she
goes through, on on throughthat and and, and I I support
her.
I've always supported her,knowing where she's at and what

(01:01:17):
she's moving through.
I never put any type ofconstraint on anything Like when
all of this started opening up,I was like, girl, do your thing
.
Go experience it and like you,monica, I'm similar where, yeah,
I've, I've been in threesomesand actually I was dating
somebody last year who wouldvery much wanted to do
threesomes and I ended up stopdating him because I was like
you're, you're enough for me,like it's just, I want to be, I

(01:01:44):
want to be, prioritized.
I love that you said that Idon't.
I don't and it isn't that Iwouldn't do a threesome Like, if
I'm in the mood, I'll dofucking just about anything, but
but when it comes torelationship and not that I
wouldn't entertain an opensituation, because on on the
apps, there's a lot of coupleson there.
You actually can go shop forthat on the apps because we're

(01:02:04):
open and I've entertained some,but nine times out of 10, I'm
not typically attracted to them.
Yeah, it's just.
You know, I don't.
I guess what I'm trying to sayis I don't have a problem with
whatever people choose to do.
Like, whatever you do, do itand to your point, it really is
important to be authentic of whothe truth like.

(01:02:27):
Who, truthfully, are you, what,truthfully, is your intention
and what are you working tocreate.
So I would say, okay, here'swhat I'd like to ask what would
you share with?
You know it's predominantlywomen who listen to this show.
Whether they're single, I don'tknow.
You know it's geared towardssingle women, but it's really

(01:02:48):
geared towards just people.
This show, what would you?
What advice would you givepeople that are either exploring
this or yeah, well, let's startthere.
What advice would you givepeople that are exploring this
from both sides from both sides,whether they're single, in one

(01:03:10):
or in a marriage and wanting toexplore this what would you give
the advice?
Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
I think that.
So we're never the team topreach that what we're doing is
the right way to live.
That actually goes againsteverything that we think about.
Right?
We're not saying that everybodyshould have this idea.
I think that our wholementality is figure out what

(01:03:37):
makes you happy and what letsyou experience your life.
And once you figure that out,then go do it Right.
And so you know, we had allthese thoughts of you know, what
are people going to think aboutus, what are our families going
to think?
And we're still have to crossthat bridge and that'd be a fun
conversation.
But we, we went for it, right,and we, we sat down, we realized

(01:04:00):
we are a team and we're in thistogether.
But you know, part of that team, ship or teamwork is making
sure that we're both extremelyhappy, and so we figured out
what that would look like and wewent for it, and so I think
that it has made us closer.
I think it's made things a loteasier in our house.
We're both having fun, we'reboth experiencing our life.
So that would be myrecommendation is, you know,

(01:04:25):
it's okay to go against the norm, and that's that's not just in
marriage, that could be anyaspect of your life, right?
And I feel like people have tohide a lot of what they feel or
what they want to do because ofother people's, their circles,
ideals, and I think that'sbullshit.
And so we felt that we went forit.
And you know, we're four monthsin, still super early, and

(01:04:49):
we're still learning a lot, butit's it's working.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
Yeah, I, I think, um, I think often, as women, we
deprioritize ourselves in favorof others.
Yep, and if this is somethingthat seems interesting to you,

(01:05:13):
what I'm guessing is you're inone of two situations.
One, you are unhappy and youwant to see if doing this will
make you happier, and I am infull support of that.
To what Brig just said, like,go for what is going to fulfill
you in your life.

(01:05:33):
The other reason that you couldbe considering this is that
your partner has said that theyare considering this and if that
is the situation, default toanswer a, which is figure out
what's going to make you happyand do that.

(01:05:54):
And so, like Brick said, likethis is not for everyone, like I
talked to a lot of my friendsand their their biggest, the
biggest takeaway at the end ofour conversations is as long as
you are happy, monica, then I amhappy for you.
The second biggest takeaway isthat half of them are like I
could never do that and that'sokay.

(01:06:17):
I don't expect that everybodycould do this.
I don't expect that people,that everybody has the same
mindset, that you know that youcan have multiple intimate
relationships with people andfeel good in that situation.

(01:06:40):
I would challenge a lot ofpeople to kind of like break
down where does that come fromfor you?

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
That's exactly what I was going to say.

Speaker 3 (01:06:49):
Because I think that the reality is that the reason
that you feel like that isbecause you have these
preconceived notions and you'renever really challenged your own
ideals or what the world hastold you should be your ideals.
But we're not telling everybodyto do this.
I don't think it's foreverybody, but I do believe in a

(01:07:11):
very selfish pursuit of yourown happiness.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
Yeah, I love that.
And I will say this I, 25 yearsago so I'm 54, 20 years ago I
would have said I could never dothis, even though I had my
young, wild years.
Even when I did it, then Istruggled with it because I was
insecure, I had zero self-worth,didn't know who I was as a

(01:07:40):
woman.
I was in my 20s, you don't knowthat yet I wasn't confident.
Even though I'm on stage nude,you know, doing my thing, doing
quite well at it, couldn't seeany of who I really was hence
why I was on that stage of who Ireally was, hence why I was on

(01:08:03):
that stage Today.
So anybody and I will say this,I will say this, I will
challenge anybody, if they wantto be challenged, when they say
they could never do it, becausethen I'd say then there are
aspects of you that are unhealed.
Now, if you heal that stuff andit also goes back to your

(01:08:36):
question of Mm hmm, choose me,I'm not the one.
And that comes from aneight-year-old mentality, from
when my dad left, and so Icouldn't be with that pain,
because then that meantabandonment for me.
It means you don't love me, andyou know what.
Okay, so now that I understandthat I love myself enough that
like, hey, if you don't love me,you don't love me, if you don't

(01:08:57):
choose me, you don't choose me.
But did I choose you?
Like, I finally got to that,but it's taken 50, some odd
years to get there.
Yeah, right, so today, you know, could I be in an open
situation?
Absolutely, it's just a matterof if I want to.
And here's what I will say withthe person who wanted to do it
with me last year, I didn't wantto do it with him, but there's

(01:09:18):
somebody that I date right nowwhere we're kind of in an open
situation and I can give a shitwhat he does, don't care at all,
don't care at all.
But we have a level ofcommunication that is so off the
charts, open, and it's reallylike what him and I and this

(01:09:39):
dear friend that mutually weknow she always says that you
bring that energy, you bringthat.
He shows up in that and that'swhat the two of you were able to
create.
And I was like, whoa, you'reright, yeah, because with that
other person it wasn't there andit just wasn't and it was.
There was nothing that I wasinsecure or jealous about with

(01:09:59):
him either.
It just wasn't something Iwanted to do with him.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
Yeah, I think that that's a good point, to like to
bring it back to where I talkabout, like the fork in the road
and the detour we're taking.
Also, if you make this choice,like to your point, it's not for
every relationship.
It could be for you, but itcould not be for your current
relationship.
It could also be for you andfor your current relationship,

(01:10:24):
but only for now.
Yes, we are very open when wetalk about this with each other
that we could still end up atone of those two other
destinations, enjoying our lifeas it is coming to us right now,
taking it for what it is,making the most of it, and then,

(01:10:53):
as we grow and evolve, we'llfigure out if this is still
right for us.
You're either going to growtogether or grow apart.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
Yeah, we're only ever expanding or contracting.
You're only ever growingtogether or growing apart.
And that growing together andgrowing apart could be going
weaving in and out of themarriage for years.
Right, yeah, and what I loveabout what you two have taken on
, which means you're gonna beable to take on literally
anything, because this is one ofthe biggest taboo issues Right,

(01:11:22):
you may grow apart, but you mayreally grow together.
I mean there's and you here'sthe other thing, because I'm
just I'm kind of seeing somethings.
You may grow together andalways have these two other
people for years who knew butthere's, a lot of people that

(01:11:47):
have done that.
There's a lot Hollywood, okay,and I just say celebrities
because we hear about this.
After the fact, there are a lotof people that do that.
I have a dear friend who callsit rich, rich people married,
because she's in a situationwhere these people have been
married for years 30 years, 20years, some odd years and they
both have their people on thesides.
That's what works, and her andthis person have been a long

(01:12:10):
time lover situation and andthere's nothing there, there's
no issues with it and to getrich.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
Yeah right, I'm just missing that one piece.
Just one.
We'll get there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Right, we'll all get there.
But yeah, I mean it's just, itreally is.
If there's anything I wouldlike to leave with people that
listen to this show is thatwe're not on here saying, hey,
this is what you need to do.
What my real intent is, life ishappening for you.
What are you going to do withwhat shows up?
Okay, who are you going to be?

(01:12:46):
How are you going tocommunicate through it?
How are you going to growthrough it?
And this is a topic that's a hottopic because it really is a
real topic that shows up in, Ithink, almost every marriage.
I don't think there is a singlemarriage that didn't deal.
There are some people thattheir destiny, their faith,
their experience was meant to dothe full-blown marriage.
I do know people that are justhappy, beyond happy, beyond

(01:13:10):
happy, beyond happy, doing whatthey're doing in that
conventional situation, andthat's the experience.
They came as a soul.
That's their soul's purpose.
There's a lot of us other ones,that came in and we're here to
experience all kinds of things.
So if it shows up for you andyou want to be open to it, be

(01:13:31):
open to it.
If it shows up for you andyou're clear you don't want to,
then you need to just askyourself where does that come
from and how does it show up inother parts of your life?
Okay, because wherever you'regoing to say I will never do
that, and I've learned to neversay never.
The moment you say never, youwill get the thing.
I said I would never live inArizona.

(01:13:51):
I lived there for seven years.
I said I would never drive ared Ford Escort.
The first car I got was a 1981red Ford Escort.
I've learned never say never.
When I've said I'm never goingto date that person, I end up
with that person and God's funnythat way.
That's how I believe theuniverse has a funny sense of
humor.
But you really just want to askyourself where does the no come

(01:14:13):
from?
Is it an ideology?
Is it really at your core?
Or is it because the world toldyou no?
Is it just because you justreact and say no to everything
right away?
But really what's back there isyou want to do it.
You know, like whatever it is,whatever it is, I want to leave

(01:14:36):
people with this.
We're not saying, hey, go dothis, but it's a very
interesting conversation and Ijust, you know, I guess I feel
like we should wrap up, butthere's probably more, lots of
more juicy stuff to talk about.
But I do want to thank you bothfor being open and candid and
sharing.
There's so much more I wantedto dive into.
I'm like, oh, I mean, we couldgo on for hours about this topic

(01:14:57):
and because there are so many,you know, I would hope one day I
could have all four of you onhere, because there is this,
yeah, because there is this,there is the whole other side of
the other people on the outsideand what they have to navigate

(01:15:18):
For sure, both from what theirfriends or family may think,
both from what they think aboutthemselves, the stuff they have
to deal with with themselves,about you know, I think a term
that's like side piece, likewhere does that come from?
What would have us feel that weare, that that actually has

(01:15:42):
nothing to do with what'shappening here.
It's just triggering aconversation that's showing up.
So if anything I have watchedinside of this situation that
you two have gone on toexperience is I've seen a lot of
growth of human beings and I'veseen and Monica, I'm just
meeting you today, which I'msuper excited to meet you in
person eventually.
I think it's a beautifulexperience Because it really

(01:16:07):
forces everybody to have toreally take a look at who they
are at the core, because love,intimacy, sex I'm going to say
love and intimacy andpartnership, friendship
relationships.
They are gray.

(01:16:28):
They're really, really gray andthey really are here, I believe,
to be explored on so manylevels and I really believe that
you really find who you are atyour core.
Like there's a lot of peoplethat will tell me I can't
believe you do all that datingand dating on the apps.
I hate dating and dating sucks.
I'm like, hey, you know what Adear friend of mine and I we

(01:16:49):
want to do an episode just aboutthe dating apps.
I've learned so much aboutmyself and who I am through
dating on the dating appsbecause of all the multitude of
people I have met and all of thestuff I've had to move through
and all of the things that I'vehad to push my own limits or
boundaries or push my own selfagainst things where I got

(01:17:11):
triggered and really learninghow to be open and allow people
to just be who they are, justallow people to show up.
And now I'm in a place wheremen will be like you're just so
easy to talk to.
You're just so authentic oryou're just so relaxed because I
give a fuck anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
You know what you want.

Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Yeah, well, to your, to Monica's point, I'm not
trying to be this thing.
I'm showing up as who I am,like this is me.
I'm not going to be what you,what I think you want me to be.
And we women do that.
I think men do too.
We show up in some way and Ithink when you start to just get

(01:17:49):
out there and really practicedating, you realize that you
know we're all just out therefumbling around trying to figure
shit out.
I mean, can I tell you theamount of people that lie about
their height and their age?
And I'm like, why do you haveto lie about your height?
Why, why, why, why?
It's like a thing Like men arelike I'm 5'10", I'm like you're
5'6".
I don't understand, like, whyare you doing that?

(01:18:11):
You know, but that falls intothat stuff of we're being who we
think you need us to be, sothat you accept us, so that
you'll love us, so that you'lltalk to us, so that you'll, you
know, let me into your circle,whatever it is, you know.

(01:18:32):
And so, yeah, I just Iacknowledge you guys at the
highest level.
What you're doing is so braveand courageous.
It's beautiful.
I think that you guys havehandled it in such a incredible
way.
You know, and I'm sure each ofyou have moved through many
things to get to where you aretoday I see a lot of love
between the two of you.
I don't see yeah, I really do.

(01:18:52):
I don't see you can see coupleswhen they get next to each
other.
You could see, like the, youknow, you can see it.
There's a lot of flow here, alot of relaxness.
Yeah, yeah, yes, the team.

Speaker 2 (01:19:08):
Yeah, but we are.
We're still trying to figurethis out as well you know, we're
navigating a lot, but it's it'sbeen fun to do.

Speaker 1 (01:19:18):
Yeah, well, what else would you like to share, if
anything?
Is there anything more you'dlike to share today?

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
I don't think so.
I think that this definitelycalls for a second episode with
you.
I hope, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
Yeah, I would love to do more with you.
Yeah, and I think you know weare.
Oh, should we?

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
shameless plug.
Shameless plug, yes, please.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
I was gonna say, I was gonna say let's talk about
it yes, um, it is called seeingother people and, uh, and it is
just almost like a live, livedocumentary of our experience
moving into an open marriage.
Um, we're talking a lot about alot of the things that we

(01:20:07):
talked about today, kind of howdid we get here?
Um.
But then we really want to makeit about like kind of live
update on our experiences,conversations with our partners,
conversations with people whoare very anti or very pro this
experience, and so we will letyou know when we drop our first

(01:20:28):
episode.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
Yes, yes, I cannot wait, I'm so excited.
Yeah, I just I love you bothand I thank you so much and it's
it's funny that it's only beenfour months.
I'm like it feels like it'sbeen so much longer.
But there's yeah there's a lotof ground that's been covered in
a very short amount of time.
Yeah, for sure.

(01:20:50):
You know, as you guys is isjust yeah, and I and I like
again, I can't say how well youguys do, even if it looks or
feels messy You're life is messy, right, and you're doing great,
and I always say, get your asson the fucking court.
You know, I have an episodecalled the court of life.

(01:21:12):
Like people want to sit on thesideline and talk about shit and
give shit and you know, judgeshit.
It's like you know, get yourbutt out there on the court and
fall down and you know, pass theball.
You know, try some threepointers.
Sometimes you're going to makethem and sometimes you're not.
Like I really see life as abasketball game.
That's how I always see it.

(01:21:32):
You know, and it's this highspeed, like back and forth, and
you're on the court and you'rejust playing full out.
Like you're playing full outand that's what you guys are
doing.
You're on the court.

Speaker 2 (01:21:42):
Yeah, it felt like we were for a while on a path
towards a bad ending and I thinkwe'd rather look back and say
we gave everything and triedeverything and did everything as
a team versus just saying youknow, it is what it is.
So we're at a point now wherewe're trying to just go have as
much as fun, as much fun aspossible, and you know,

(01:22:03):
experience our life, and that'sthat's what it's about.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
Life is an experience , so thank you so much.
Oh my gosh, I'm just like wow,okay, so much fun.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
And thank you for having us.

Speaker 1 (01:22:20):
Yeah, thank you, and we will definitely do it again.
Thank you for coming on thishealing adventure today.
If you're starting to see howeverything is falling into place
for you, consider rating theshow and sharing it with one of
your friends.
Keep that spirit alive and joinme next week.
Same place, same time.
Have a great week.