241 Ties van der Hoeven - The regreening project we can’t afford not to do, restoring the water and weather systems in the Med, starting with fish - Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A check-in interview with the weathermakers, an
extremely ambitious projectfocusing on restoring the water
cycles in the Mediterranean.
They accidentally stumbled uponthe perfect place to show that
restoration of water cycles canbe done and can bring enormous
benefits ecologically, sociallyand financially.
We talk about the effect ofwater vapor on cooling the
planet and, of course, ourtunnel vision focus on carbon.

(00:20):
Join me in a wide-ranginginterview with a former dredging
professional turnedecosystem-restorer, and learn
what it has to do with fish.
If it's true that water vaporaccounts for 60 to 70 percent of

(00:41):
the greenhouse effect, whileCO2 only accounts for 25, why do
we rarely discuss it?
Maybe we choose to ignore itbecause it means we literally
need to re-vegetate the entireearth.
Bring back the marshes, themangroves, the perennial
pastures with trees, re-growreal forests that can bring back
rain in strategic places.
In short, bring back life, lotsof plants, trees, animals back

(01:04):
to many places on this earthnatural climate engineering.
It is time we take our role askeystone species super seriously
.
In this special water cycleseries, we interview the
dreamers and the doers who areusing the latest technology to
figure out where to intervenefirst.
They're making, or trying tomake, the investment and return
calculations and plans.

(01:24):
So what's missing?
What's holding us back?
Maybe we lack the imaginationto back them and try
regeneration at scale.
We're thankful for the supportof the Nest Family Office in
order to make this series.
The Nest is a family officededicated to building a more
resilient food system throughsupporting natural solutions and
innovative technologies thatchange the way we produce food.

(01:44):
You can find out more on theNestFO that is nestfocom.

(02:04):
Welcome to another episode todaywith Thies van der Hoever,
creative director of theWeathermakers.
Welcome, thies, hello, nice tohave you and to start, I'm
obviously going to link to agreat interview, by the way, you
did with Ben Goldsmith onRewilding, and to an interview
we did with one of yourco-founders, maddie, in 2021.
But so don't go there andlisten to it now.

(02:26):
But just as a smallintroduction to your own journey
, I would like to ask how didyou end up focusing on soil?
I know a bit of your backgroundand the journey has been soil,
let's say, from underneath theocean bedding.
But how did you end up focusingso much on, let's say, the
living soil or above sea levelsoil?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, my career started in the dredging industry
, so I always was busy with theearth movement on a very large
scale.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
And I was working in the.
If anybody knows dredging, it'sthese immense ships that
basically pump up if I saidthat's probably not the word,
but pump up sand and oceanmovement to put it somewhere
else, either to createprotection or new islands or
anything.
But it's basically taking soilor sand that's on the ocean
bottom and put it somewhere else.
Massive ships keeping rivers,let's say, open for ships, etc.

(03:26):
That kind of work which theNetherlands has a massive
industry on that.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah.
So I started with one of thePalm Tree Islands in Dubai I
normally now say I'm luckythere's a tree in the name and
did large scale portreclamations, dredging of
channels etc.
And was already.
My sister started to work withGreenpeace and I promised her to
try to regreen the contractorfrom inside out, not having a

(03:50):
clue what would happen.
And at a certain moment I wasbusy actually with building with
nature.
So actually start using naturein designs of ports, of
reclamations etc, to reduce costand to increase or to reduce
the negative impacts of theseports.
But I could completely fad upwith the fact that lots of the
times you would plan when youwould kill lots of coastal

(04:13):
systems or natural systems oryou would plant one tree back he
said, ah, we plant a tree.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
And the net benefit is good.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah, yeah, I normally call it yeah in Dutch
it duke je voor de bloeter, butso not really really trying to
hide the negative impact.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
I'm trying to come up with the English version, but I
don't know.
Let's say it's a very, verylittle impact.
What is it?
It's like some marginalintervention that really looks
really well on the brochure butdoesn't really have any concrete
impact.
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
And then I was.
So I was busy actually at acertain moment, with diving a
little bit more into aquaticecosystems and how to use them
and then, all of a sudden, 19thof January 2016, I got a call
from the former project managerof the Sewers Canal, which is a
known edging project as well,from Egypt, and he was requested

(05:09):
by an Egyptian governmentperson to look into the very far
the ecosystem collapse whichwas happening in a lagoon where
fish stock was disappearing,where the future perspective of
the inhabitants of the localcommunities was simply gone, and
it created a lot of socialunrest.
And if we didn't know what wecould do about it.

(05:33):
And I followed my intuition andI thought I did.
And I started really with thelagoon itself and I'm a
morphologist from education, soI started to understand that we
could change, we could capturethe tidal energy which was
passing this lagoon twice a dayand with that flood water I

(05:54):
could flush the lagoon, couldreduce the salinity, could
stabilize the temperatures andcould stir up the very fertile
marine settlements there on thebottom.
And only looking into that, itwas really an eye opening for me
and Malik, because we couldstart understanding that, if you
simply look back on howproductive this lagoon used to

(06:17):
be.
You could see the silitation ofthe lagoon in the history and I
could do a hind-castcalculation to predict the
potential natural productivityif we would increase the tidal
prism.
So the water that flows in andout via flood and up, and it was
tremendous and that was really.
We started to understand thatthis would potentially mean no

(06:40):
unemployment anymore in thesecoastal areas and the main
driver for me and Malik.
Malik is half Algerian, halfBelgium, and I worked a lot in
the Middle East and I gotcompletely set up with the
polarization which is happeningin the world between so many
different people and we startedto realize, wow, we could really
mean something for those peoplethere.
And then you've got the wholestory in Europe about refugees

(07:03):
and how much a refugee wouldcost in the Netherlands, and
that we should better keep themin their own place and give them
a future perspective.
So we started to understandthat this was an amazing
business case and from there westarted to work.
And then after a couple ofweeks because this was only in
the beginning Malik actuallysaid to me at least I always I'd

(07:24):
never understood why we'redumping normally offshore marine
settlements, because they'revery fertile.
You know that because you'refrom the Netherlands and the
majority of your productiveagricultural fields is the old
Siba.
I'm like, damn, you got a pointthere, man.
So we started to analyze what'sin those soils and we started
to understand that everythingonly lacking phosphorous, but

(07:47):
everything was in there innutrients and minerals and even
microbial communities which wereinactive.
So we started to understandthat we should use these dumping
dumping like treasure,basically.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
So, even if you would just take this lagoon, which
has been filling up slowly, torevitalize it, but not take into
consideration what you'repumping out or what you're
taking, what you're dredging anddumping it somewhere
potentially far away from theshore, etc.
But you're saying, actuallyit's a good breeding ground,
it's a good soil.
It's a good soil, it's a goodsoil, it's a good breeding

(08:23):
ground, it's a good soilamendment, or even just soil in
a region that is desertifyingand is really suffering from not
having that.
So you're basically and that'sa double click, of course when
that happened, you suddenlyrealized, wow, there's the
potential for the marineenvironment to revitalize and to

(08:44):
be productive again, andactually there's a potential for
agriculture and soil.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
And the funny thing is Malik did me on it.
But what I in the same time sawas a morphologist you know, if
you increase your tidalvelocities, which are normally
in normal patterns, flowing inspiral flows, so they're
creating also upwellings.
So what tidal prism does?
It picks up again.

(09:09):
If water is salt, the salt is anatural flocculator.
So if sediments from desertwinds or organic materials are
deposited in the lagoon, they gointo a chemical reaction with
the salt, they flocculate andthey settle down at the bottom.
And normally, what the tidedoes?
They recycle these nutrientsagain by upwelling them into the

(09:31):
water column and on the slacktide.
So which is the high water?
they deposited the organics andthe marine sediments outside the
shore of the lagoon and onthese much flats salt marches or
the mangroves, are the mostproductive ecosystems, the parts
of the ecosystem we have in theworld.

(09:51):
And what they're doing?
They're completely,continuously battling to become
a freshwater system or to battletowards the waves, which again
reducing them.
So you can very quickly seethat the natural system is
transforming these marinesediments towards a fresh
ecosystem in the longer term.
So what we started tounderstand when I saw this, I
said, damn, you got a point.

(10:13):
These are the indigenous soilsthat used to be on that Sinai
and when you look on the Sinaifrom the satellites you can see
the old river system.
But all the soils are therecompletely eroded in thousands
of years by flash floods and etc.
So we thought, if everybodytalks about and I was not an

(10:34):
ecologist at that momenteverybody talks about indigenous
plants, why don't we talk aboutthe indigenous soils?
Because the composition ofthese soils, from the grain size
towards the nutrients, towardsthe minerals, which determines
the productivity of those soilsin the old days on the land.
So we started to understandokay, wait a minute.

(10:55):
If the organic components arethe kickstarter of a new
ecosystem, we should use thedepth organic matter from the
plants.
They used to be there.
So you have a much higheropportunity to have success when
you start to agree.
And the funny thing is,sometimes a lot starts where,

(11:17):
where you see the problem.
But in 1953, when we had a bigflooding in the Netherlands it's
not that these agriculturallands are not productive anymore
now In other words, rid of thesalt.
So for me it was okay.
The salt actually preservedthese soils for us in the lagoon
, 2.5 billion cubic metersranging from organic content

(11:41):
from 5 to 15% Well, everypermaculture person gets crazy
about it, would go bananas.
Of course, that also has to dowith the segregation which is
happening.
So we never were able to go toodeep.
But there's approximately a 15to 15 meter thick layer of
subcars and the subcars are thevery salty, fertile marine

(12:03):
sediments.
So we're like, yeah, we'regoing to use it.
And then the funny thing is forme at that moment, I didn't
start directly with the soils.
The soils for me was thematerial, what I was going to
dredge anyway, and I knew that Ineed soils to grow plants.
But for me it was really thewater cycle that triggered me

(12:27):
well, from the beginning,because what I started to
understand myself is that thosewetlands, if you restore them.
What the wetlands do?
They transform salt water tofresh water vapor.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
So the water vapor is your first-.
You remember when that triggercame?
Because I think somehow in, I'mgoing to say this space, which
is obviously not true, but we'revery often and that's why we're
doing this series on watercycles as well but we're very
often stuck or we stay within.
We're going to regenerate thispiece of land, we're going to
work on this farm or on thisplot, or even on this lagoon,

(13:03):
etc.
But then to take it upliterally a few notches or a few
levels and to start talkingabout how this influences the
water cycle above this piece ofland and around, was it a
natural click for you?
Was it a trigger?
Did you read something?
What happened there?
Because, of course, going fromdredging soil sediment to water
vapor is quite a step.

Speaker 2 (13:24):
Now you really have to see that as what I said.
I'm an intuitive person, solots of the times I've got an
intuition, I follow it, try toget it, and I like engineering,
so I like to get up with a kindof calculation method and I say,
okay, wow, wow, wow, wow.
I'm talking here aboutsomething I spend a lot of my

(13:45):
time sailing with my parents inthe Eastern Sheldt in the
Netherlands, a big estuary.
So I know I played as a littlekid all the time in the salt
marshes and in those coastalsystems.
So for some reason it waswithin my intuitive thinking, so
I started to do that.
I also knew that in thosemarshes it's cool.
Yeah, then why is it cool?

(14:06):
Because the evaporation happens.
Oh, wait a minute.
And then I got triggered byMalik telling me we should reuse
those sediments.
And why we said it?
Because if I can reuse thesediments, I can first of all,
reduce costs to dump themoffshore.
Second of all and we call thisresource-based dredging I create
a resource for the future.

(14:26):
So all of a sudden, I'mcreating more value.
It's a kind of an holisticapproach to, first of all, to
lagoon what we were going to do,and then, of course, when Malik
told me this and I was in Cairoand I was flying back, I was
looking at Google Earth and youcould just see that river system
.
And I used to do in my career Icreated workability software

(14:49):
tools so I created for dredgingvessels offshore how to predict
better and read better a weatherforecast, know the limits on
the ship.
So I know a lot about weather.
I'm also a sailor, so I can seewhat weather is coming from the
clouds.
And then I started tounderstand wait a minute, if

(15:14):
there used to be a river system,it's warmer, so there's more
water vapor in the atmosphereand there's more carbon dioxide
in the atmosphere.
So my intuitive feeling saidwait a minute, there's not a
reason why this desert is adesert.
Ok, wait, let me Google alittle bit on the historical
perspectives and when I wasreading the wobble of the axis
of the Earth, I didn't found ita very solid evidence, if I'm

(15:39):
honest.
I know it has a big influence,but it wasn't the reason because
I figured out that the lasthuman African period stopped in
100 to 200 years.
I told you I can likecalculation.
The wobble of the axis of theEarth is 25,000 years
approximately.
So how the hell can it change?

(16:00):
It's becoming a desert 200years being connected to that.
It will definitely be animportant role, but it can never
be the main thing.
So then I saw the river system.
Wait a minute.
Then, if I have soil and if Iplant a plant, a plant creates
shadow.
Yeah, cool it out so it canhold less moisture.
Hey, wait a minute.
I'm pulling down this cloudconversation level.

(16:22):
The same time I'm restoring mywetlands, and where the energy
of the sun is being transformedinto an evaporation, it doesn't
only cool down, it also reducesyour thermal flow, so it reduces
your low pressure, so itreduces your wind speed.
And then in my head I was like,wait a minute, these are
positive feedback loops, andthis is what Malik and I all the

(16:44):
time saw in those naturalsystems are positive feedback
loops.
And then I said to Malik wait aminute, man, how much does it
cost if we dredge the soils topump it directly up into the
mountains and start processingit there?
Yeah, well, these maybe twiceas much as energy.
You have to understand if youcut the soil, you have to

(17:06):
suspend the soil.
It costs a lot of energy, butthe moment you have it in
suspension.
Hydraulic transport is by farthe cheapest transport method,
for sure for finer materials.
We're like wait a minute, we'reonto something.
It's actually quite funnybecause the sea water still
holds some phosphorus.
If, to pump these materialsover longer distances, you want

(17:29):
low densities and I did a quickcalculation, wait a minute.
So I got also my phosphorusproblem tackled.
And then I said to Malik wait aminute.
If I pump it up into a mountainthere, let the sea water
segregate from the sediments,let the sea water evaporate,
pick up in density and I let theflow back to the ocean, I get
approximately 70% to 80% of myenergy back.

(17:51):
He's like wow, so we'reincreasing the water vapor,
we're using the natural systemin a proper water cycle.
So damn, we're onto somethingthere.
And then we just said, ok, waita minute.
Now let's be contractors.
We want to create anopportunity.
Let us just build a plan howmuch soil we're going to dredge,
how much food security and fishthat's going to give.

(18:13):
And with those sediments we'regoing to dredge, we want to
reuse them and see if we canstart restoring the river system
.
And if you look at Google Earth, you can very clearly see where
you have to start regaining.
Because the beautiful thing isyou see the river system and you
see the wind erosion on theleeward side or from the south
side of this watershed, andthere you can beautifully see

(18:36):
where the most water vapor iswithin the air, because that
creates the most the winderosion.
So there we could ratherquickly understand OK, we have
to start with this river Createdthe whole plan.
Everybody was a little bitcouldn't fully understand me and
Malik what we were saying.
So a friend of mine said thesemake a sketch.
So we started to make thesesketches right.

(18:57):
So you've got the Sinai, whichis a beautiful triangle shape.
Approximately from the coast tothe highest point is 250
kilometers, 1,700 meters inelevation.
So we started to make the planRestore the lagoon, restore
approximately 200 to 300 squarekilometers in wetlands, increase

(19:17):
there the water vapor, thenstart higher up in the mountains
.
Somebody showed me John Liu andthe green gold, so I started to
see what they did and we startedto make all the calculation and
by drawing it myself I saw thatI flipped the wind, because
nowadays, when it's a desert,almost 60 to 70% of the energy

(19:38):
is transformed into sensibleheat.
This is global warming.
Then you get a thermal flow,low pressure and you get a very
strong wind over the edge of theearth dropping into the Red Sea
on the south side.
But when I would reduce thesalinity of my lagoon, would
increase my weather vapor,already there would have the

(19:59):
wetlands as preparationfactories.
What you see is theavailability of water there.
It reduces the temperature,reduces the low pressure, so the
wind doesn't go that quick overthe land but goes a little bit
higher up, goes less quick andhas evaporated moisture coming
from the plants and then I couldsee that I could reach cloud

(20:24):
conversation levels again.
That was how I was drawing.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
But if you get cloud conversation, you could actually
seed the rain or create.
I mean, create is aninteresting word here, but
create the rain, the rains thatused to be there regularly.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
And then, if water vapor condensates, the air
implodes.
So I saw that on a higherelevation I was sucking sea
breeze in.
And there's more, which is myown water in it anyway, if you
get cloud conversation, you gotthese cauliflower clouds why?
Because the droplets arecycling and cycling.
And cycling Because the momentthey condensate, they heat up

(20:59):
the air, so the droplet is goingto rise.
But when the droplet is bigenough, it falls down.
And I never forget a VolvoOcean Race with the women boat
completely beating all the menboats, because what they clearly
understood then is when a cloudwould suck wind and would build
up and when she would fall andchange the wind.

(21:21):
So I'm like, hey, if thedroplet is big enough, so
gravity wins it from the thermalrise she falls down, creates a
drag force, and I'm flipping thewind.
And I saw the water cycle.
I'm like, hey, wait a minute.
So I googled it up and Istarted to read about the water
cycle, like, wow, damn, thismakes sense.
And then we started to unleashit all so we could calculate on

(21:46):
how big this water cycle needsto be, et cetera.
But I could also see furtherzooming out that regionally this
was a massive, massive change,Because for me it clearly showed
that this was the leakage ofthe water vapor from the
Encatchment Basin of theMediterranean, where Southern

(22:08):
Europe is completely connectedwith Northern Africa as the Nile
River, in the heart of thisEncatchment Basin.
And then John Liu.
I was traveling with him in theLuspatot and I'd never forget
it.
I was sitting in Yanan in acave hotel.
He was playing his guitar.
We had this crazy day drivingaround the Luspatot which fully

(22:31):
changed my mindset, becausethere I could see, yes, we can
restore large scale damagedecosystems.
And I used playing guitar and Isaid to my mom I got to ask you
something because I showed himall my sketches.
He said do you know Mia Mia?
I said no.
He said you have to be honest.
Do you know Mia Mia?

(22:51):
No man.
And then he showed me hissketches and they are almost
identical.
And he wrote an email to MiaMia.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Mia.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Mia, you need to meet these.
And when I came back from Chinaa couple of weeks later, I
traveled up to Mia Mia and thatwas for me an eye opener because
he could fully fill in myintuitive feeling, which I
wasn't fully able yet to.
I could calculate with it, butI couldn't fully explain it and

(23:22):
he just nailed it down and hetook me around Valencia and he
could say like this wait, wait,wait.
And he lives in an apartment inValencia.
He said first we go drive, wego to the rooftop.
It's 26 degrees, steve, it isapproximately 14 grams of water
vapor now above the ocean and ifyou see there the Beliarra, you

(23:43):
can already see the local watercycle starting up.
Okay, and let us now drive tothe continental divide.
So we drove up to his house,close by the continental divide,
and the continental divide, heexplained to me, is nothing else
than a mountain range highenough to separate weather
systems.
And the continental divide,which is going across Spain,

(24:06):
creates the difference betweenthe Mediterranean side and the
Atlantic side.
And he was explaining me thisand he would tell me all the
historical facts and at acertain moment we were driving
back and said, okay, at leastthese.
Stop the car.
Stop the car, walk outside.
Do you see that mountain rangethere?
Yeah, I told you this morning14 grams, which is now picked up
to approximately 20 grams.

(24:27):
There you see the clouds comingup.
Give me, give me one or twominutes and bump.
The cloud was there.
I'm like wow, so how do you dothis?

Speaker 1 (24:33):
He said please, this guy has a trick, yeah, this is
danger, he knows his stuff.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Yeah, he started to explain me about water, veggies,
water.
Soil is the womb, vegetation isthe midwine.
This is his summary of his work.
And then he said I cannot tellexactly what you were saying on
the Sinai is through, but what Ican tell you you're on, spot on
, and you're thinking becausethis is how I created all my

(24:59):
stuff.
And he took a map with all theencatchment basins of the world
and he said look at it, what isthere on the Sinai?
I said, damn, there's acontinental divide on the Sinai.
There used to be a separationbetween Mediterranean and
catchment basin and the IndianOcean in catchment basin.

(25:21):
Then I have to show yousomething, because he actually
explained to me, please.
I think you're right, because Ithink and I cannot argue if you
can restore it but what you seeis that there used to be this
continental divide dividing thewatershed to the Mediterranean
and the South watershed is goingto the Red Sea and that means

(25:44):
these that if that mountain hasa vegetation cover which is
functional, there is sufficientamount of vegetation.
And she changed that wind,exactly how you say, and that
means to say that in themajority of your days you should
not have any leakage towardsthe Red Sea, and I showed him

(26:05):
the wind maps.
I of course downloaded itbecause, as an engineer, if I
wanted to convince myself aboutthat wind going over the Red Sea
or being closed, I thought,okay, the only way I can prove
this is look at the differencebetween the summer and the
winter in the Sinai and you canclearly see in the summer, when
it's approximately 15 degreeswarmer on average on a day and a

(26:27):
night, you see the very strongsouthern breeze towards the Red
Sea and the whole Red Sea as asouthern direction of
approximately three to four bothfours on average on a month,
during day and night, and in thewinter there you can already
see halfway the Red Sea, thepressure coming back from the

(26:47):
Indian Ocean, and also Mia Miastarted to shiver a bit.
He's like wow, man, this couldmean something.
And he said you know these.
That doesn't go too well.
But I can tell you one thingyou just found the smallest,
most complete watershed in theworld from continental divide to

(27:08):
the coast, which is the Sinai.
So you, by incident, becausethat's what it was just found
the perfect spot to show what ispossible, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
And then from there, you because this is almost, it
sounds like magic I have used itword, I think, in the interview
with with Maddie as well in asense that it sort of triggers
us and forces us to think askeystone species or to think as
really weathermakers.
I mean, obviously you shouldpick the name for that.
But then when you go into theoffices of decision makers, of

(27:44):
financiers, investors and peoplethat, let's say, are in charge
of resources either the land ordecisions how do you make sure
you're not being put in thecrazy corner and like this is
nice, but just just restore afew fishes, because that's what
we basically asked.
Or just restore, like, how doyou make sure this is taken
seriously, as it is very serious, enormous potential,

(28:09):
potentially the smallest scaleway we can show water cycles
being restored.
But you also don't want to beput in a corner with a crazy
head on and not being listened,even though the engineering
underneath the calculations arevery sound.
Simply because we've never donethis before at this scale, we
haven't shown many examples.
Okay, this is project number 15, we know the drill, we know the

(28:29):
risks, et cetera.
Like, how do you make sureyou've been taken seriously?

Speaker 2 (28:36):
That's a good question.
Well, first of all, the firstcouple of years we weren't
always taken seriously andpeople thought I was crazy.
But and I had some connectionshigher up in the Dutch
government just normally how wedo my work that was recognized
by, for example, the director ofthe public works in the

(28:57):
Netherlands and he had a certainmoment asked me, dropped by my
office, these, what are youdoing?
Et cetera, et cetera, and Ishowed him in trust this project
.
The funny thing was I considerhim as a friend, but he was
rather religious and I didn'tknow yet that this is also, of
course, one of the mostspiritual grounds on the planet.

(29:20):
And he said I believe you.
Oh, that goes quick.
Yeah, but this is my belief.
I said, wow, so I never thoughtabout it like that.
So what I think the real answeris to what you say?
The two things yes, you aregoing to be called crazy, but
yeah, to be quite honest, Idon't really care.

(29:40):
If I believe in something, I gofor it.
Second of all, it touches people.
The narrative of the Sinaimakes people move.
It touches people in theirheart or something.
So Jan Hendrik took me to theminister and she was mad on
these pills and she loved theconcept.
You have to realize that I camein there in that moment in time

(30:02):
.
I wasn't.
I was a little bit energeticuntil I was talking to about
Marshall Plan 2.
We restored the Sinai with thewhole offshore and magic
industry, which will not have afuture anyway because we're
going to step away from thefossils.
So, yeah, man, there are allmarine deposits around Africa.
We're going to make abrotherhood with Africa and this
will.
We can become the geopoliticalleader out of love.

(30:24):
And she was like, okay, as shejust started to connect me with
some other people and she said,okay, these, listen, the way of
passion and commitment.
I was not alone there, with thewhole team around us.
Your putting down needs to berecognized anyway.
So let us set up a conventionand I'm going to ask technical

(30:44):
reviews from my institute.
So it was Wageningen Academyand the 1000s, etc.
And in the meantime, john Leowas connecting me to John Todd,
tim Flannery, thomas Hurot, lyre, to all of those people.
So I got.
I felt that I had normallycalled them my jealous.
I felt protected, in my way ofthinking, by these people.

(31:08):
They all came like me, on me on.
They all came to thatconvention and there I started
to realize is that our currentsociety is very set up into
silos and our list of thinkingis not into our system.
But all the people I've metwhich I, which I worship almost,
which inspire me, are allholistic, all thinkers.

(31:29):
And the interesting thingbecause If you start
understanding a natural systemand if you start to see their
capabilities For me it wasalways a game not to lose them
by telling my real predictions.
With other words, I could alsoalways become very conservative

(31:53):
on what we were saying and withthat they were already like wow,
if this is the case, and theinteresting thing is if you can
drop all your assumptions,because it's like biodiversity
If you're building a water cycleapproach, you need the plants,
you need the animals, you needit all to be able to start
predicting what it can do, whichmeans that you can all drop all

(32:14):
your assumptions.
So everybody gets prettyconvinced on the way how you say
it, what you also see, you haveto build up personal relations,
because if I had a technicalreview of Kahnemi, wageningen,
deltarys, everybody around me,everybody was skeptical, there's
no way we can do it, etc.
Then if I would meet them afterthe meeting alone.

(32:35):
They would all say thesecontinue, continue.
It's not what you say is wrong.
But, man, I cannot say it'sright.
I said yeah, but that's fine.
It's not about what's exactlyright it needs.
We need to start understandingwhich direction we need to go to
, and I love that from GreenGold that Jeff Loudon says what
we need to do remains relativelysimple Lots of work.

(32:59):
What we need to do isrelatively simple Routine
moisture and bring theenvironmental condition back and
nature rebuild their owncomplexity.
So when I started coming intowhere we were a little bit
different than other re-greedingprojects, I guess was that we
had this lagoon and an aquaticecosystem is way quicker in
recovery.

(33:19):
So the good thing about thefact that it's quicker in
recovery, it gives you a muchearlier result, which was fish,
solid fish, bam.
I could look it back in thelast 100 years of fish data.
I could show it.
The fish is going to get there.
My friend, if you would lookinto the other lagoons of the
Mediterranean, you see that thepart of the wheel was really

(33:40):
really on the bottom ofproductivity, where she used to
be.
Historically, there are rumorsthat Caesar went there because
the best phase of theMediterranean was coming out of
the part of the wheel, which Ican tell you why, but I won't do
it right now.
It takes too long.
So I started to understand wait, you can just show the other
productivity of the lagoon, soyou can show this productivity.
So that was the first momentthe investor starts coming in.

(34:01):
After that I could starttalking about carbon credits,
but what I already quicklyunderstood is that carbon
credits on itself will neverfund these projects.
But if you start thinking onthe water cycle, where the
percentage of biomass is muchmore important than your carbon

(34:23):
stored into it, because thereare natural systems.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
What do you mean by that?
Why is that?

Speaker 2 (34:35):
If I look at the link of climate change towards
carbon dioxide, I see, of course, a correlation, but the
correlation isn't as strong asit is now changing and scary.
If I look at the percentage ofbiomass, which is the breathing
system in this water cycle, yousee a much stronger relation.

(34:55):
What other words?

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Meaning like I think Judith Schwartz said it
somewhere like we de-vegetatedthe earth I don't know if that's
the term but like we reducedthe amount of biomass
significantly.
And you're saying, if I'mcorrect, that that correlation
with a global weirding warmingwhatever we're going to call it,
mostly warming is much strongerthan the CO2 correlation.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
And we knew that already from 1972, but we knew
that climate change was due toland use.
Now I will add also the oceanto it and fossil fuel burnings,
but the biggest pillar alwayswas land use.
If you destroy, 60% of thecontribution of greenhouse gases

(35:45):
is water vapor.
If you add water vapor to thegame, there's always a
discussion to it.
Why?
Because it determines whereyour water vapor is in your
atmosphere.
If your water vapor is higherthan 3 kilometers, where it's
out of reach of the indirectwater cycle effects of your
water share, she is by far thestrongest and worst greenhouse

(36:09):
gas there is.
And, of course, if you startlooking back, when did the
desert occur?
When did we deviate from thenormal ice time cycles, etc.
Read the book the Weathermakes.
You can beautifully see it inthe script.
It was before the IndustrialRevolution.
No, it was because the huntersand gatherers started chopping

(36:31):
down the forest.
If you look back at the cyclesof the African human period, it
became a desert or it becamegreen many, many times, but it
used to be way often greenerthan it was a desert and that's
completely altered.
The other way around.
And if you start understandingthat these deserts, these are

(36:54):
heat factories on the longerterm and yesterday they reflect
more light back into theatmosphere, but they create lots
of hot air.
That's why you see lots ofscientists also seeing links
with the dirt certification ofthe planet and the changing
monsoon patterns, which makessense because a desert has lots

(37:16):
of high pressures, so thoselower systems cannot come there.
And if you look at it like that, you can start understanding
that it's your biomass, thatevery kilo of biomass has a
function in this water cycle.
And if you then start talkingthis is what I'm now doing also
with the financial people I saidlisten, let us first tackle the

(37:40):
carbon.
But I see equivalent to carbon,equivalent to a greenhouse gas
let's call it carbon, it'saccepted.
I see much more value in thebiomass, approximately four
times more.
But not only that, because ifwe have a functional
biodiversity around it all thelittle worms, the little rats,

(38:01):
the birds, everything isrecycling nutrients, which is an
accumulation of this livingsystem, and those living systems
get more powerful and powerfulall the time.
That's why they're also veryvulnerable.
If you tackle them and if yousee this, you can actually see a
whole accumulation of energystored into these natural

(38:25):
systems and, where it is stored,into your water cycle so you
can actually predict on theenergetic.
How do I explain this easily?
I see water as a battery.
Right?
If you have a desert and thesun comes up, approximately 60
to 70% on global terms, istransformed in sensible heat.

(38:51):
If you have a vegetation cover,call it an organic
infrastructure to control yourhydrological cycle or actually
to create your natural watermanagement.
On that same day I told you notthe 60 to 70% is sensible heat,

(39:12):
but 70 to 80% is evaporation.
So what happens is the excessof solar energy during the day
is transformed into water vapor,which then reduces the heating
of your land.
That water vapor is storedduring the day and will

(39:32):
potentially fall in the end ofthe day or at night down as rain
.
But this is energy.
So you can make an energybalance.
Yeah, heat is lost, but thewater that falls down is cool
and creates gravitational energy.
So there you can see thebizarre positive feedback loops

(39:53):
effect on this water cycle.
And if you then look at it,what do you need for a water
cycle?
You need the plants and youneed the animals, and this
creates lots of this energybeing stored into your water
cycle and which frees it up tothe species around there.

(40:15):
And you just said somethingfunny.
Yes, we have to understand.
We are barred of a very biggroup of weathermakers which is
called the organic family.
What I normally say to theministers or the business be
there or the other people saycome on, do you believe that we
can change the weather?
Yeah, well, please, if you nottell this story?

(40:37):
Yeah, no idea.
Yeah, I think we could play arole.
So, okay, listen, look at theintroduction.
He did Look, yeah, I need.
But.
But people then still think,okay, they start to understand
the stuff about the water cycle.
Okay, can we do this?
So, come on, look at theintroduction of the wolf back
into the Yellowstone Park.
Wolves created rivers, so, comeon, we can do this.

(41:01):
Right, don't get me wrong.
I love wolves, have lots ofrespect for them out there
working together, but we canmimic this.
No, you've got a point there.
Yeah, because the wolves starteating the deer.
The deer could eat the smalltrees.
The beaver could eat them andcould build that dam, so you
could revitalize all of thesesystems.

Speaker 1 (41:18):
Come on, we're beautiful video on that, which I
will, which I will put that andhave you seen, because you've
been on this for, let's say,since 2016 you mentioned the
weathermaker started in 2017.
Has the conversation, becauseyou've been doing a lot of
education, like, has theconversation shifted a bit more

(41:38):
in the sense of Ambition, in thesense of understanding that we
play a key role in this?
On a negative and the potentialpositive side, like, what is
your hunch now?
And then I'm gonna ask, ofcourse, where you are now we're
recording this in the summer of2023, but how has been the
conversation?
Because I'm imagining the first,because I remember talking
about soil and grazing 13 yearsago in investment communities

(42:03):
and and I saw basically Likeblank faces, like what do you
mean?
And and that has shifted soilhas become a significant topic
in many circles.
I'm imagining the Bob my bubblejust became a lot bigger as
well but how is that that being,let's say, in the water cycle
conversations?
Has that shifted the last sixyears, seven years that you have

(42:25):
been on this?
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
The answers.
Yes, I can make it a little bitmore practical, so why?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
no, no, no, I've had very good.
And then what does it mean forthe weathermakers?
Afford this specific one?
As me and Leon mentioned, thisis probably the most perfect
case, not ideally in terms ofPolitical situation, terms of
spot, because it's very it's avery important place for many,
for many people, many countries,and so it's not the easiest

(42:52):
place to work in many ways, butmaybe also the best place to do
this.
Where are you now in 2023?
What's the update from, gonnasay, the ground, but in this
case, the lagoon, like where?
What Latest from?
From soil?

Speaker 2 (43:06):
let me first respond to your earlier question because
I want to explain it a littlebit further.
You said I did a lot ofeducation.
I don't believe it.
It always education.
I did more inspiration, becausecertain things I also don't
know yet, but by inspiringpeople on the force of nature,
which also building our own Ecooasis, lapierre, which is a

(43:29):
combination of John, thoughts,work and me and me, and we see
what it became.
We did lots of inspiration.
But you also have seen Is that Iguess the geopolitical
governance of this world is moreand more failing, and we also
see that we're failing for sureas being the Netherlands is

(43:50):
really Doing something onclimate change.
What I also saw it in theNetherlands is that very rapidly
, our system is changing.
The last five years, man, wehad droughts, which is scary,
and and now also here in theNetherlands, people start
understanding that the weatheris changing way more rapidly

(44:11):
than even predicted.
With other words, the way howcarbon dioxide reduces our
predicting changes is we are nowseeing here in the Netherlands.
It's not the Right way, andmore and more people are
starting to talk about Heatstresses, to take it out with
natural systems and startthinking on, indeed, in

(44:33):
retaining moisture.
So I see definitely in theNetherlands and I see not the
Netherlands as the example ofthe world, but I see the
Netherlands as a, as a brewingpot of, because we, living with
so many people together, we'reone of the Western countries
which is hitting the limits ofgrowth In our country as we
speak.
Whether it's nitrogen, whetherit's carbon, whether it's the

(44:53):
availability of fresh water,we're really hitting our limits
and we got a change and Idefinitely see a change.
I also started to work togetherwith the scientific all groups
and universities, which was atrust building Process and now
I'm really interesting, aninteresting journey, I think
yeah yeah, and I'm reallyworking together with delft

(45:15):
leiden u-tracked Wageningen Vetsis.
So we were having a lot ofspread and where they can still
sometimes be skeptical when Isaid it's fine, investigate it.
And every time we get to thestep further that they say, damn
, we're on to something.
So that's a process whichhappened on last week at the

(45:37):
formal director of economy herecoming to visit me, because he
heard that much about me and hesaid okay, please listen, you
guys need to be reviewed by thebig Global weather forecasting
model which they together,economy and all other people
produce.
So I feel that they're doing it.

(45:58):
And the funny thing, he saidthese I I do it Because this is
actually one of the only Bigthoughts which are really giving
me hope, because we're not thatmuch in a hopeful situation now
.
So it's not always that theycompletely recognize what we see
, but they intuitively have afeeling.

(46:18):
So I feel that there is achange happening within our
society which is Creating waymore.
The awareness is kicking in.
We now have to start thinkabout solutions and more and
more people see that the onlyReal, quick solution is
restoration on natural systemsand then we can do all the other

(46:40):
things later on.
So where are you?
Why right now?
The last 27 In design I, ofcourse, we signed a cooperation
agreement with the Egyptiangovernment on the buyer reveal
and the sign-eye initiative toTogether start sharing knowledge

(47:02):
and ideas.
So we completely shared the waywe think they could do it and
and are now talking with biginvestors in the world to start
investing in it.
And Cannot always say too muchabout it, but it means to say
that we're talking on the budgetso you can completely fund the
early words.

(47:22):
So this is only like really,what is it?
The first 50 million cubicmeters of the regime which it
will change the whole foodsecurity issue for the local
community.
So it's still a big, bigproject, but it's absolutely not
In the green part yet.
There will be a green pilotsand it will be all start going
to be organized around andthat's where we now start, where

(47:44):
the fish is really the core ofthe investment and where Carbon
credits, nitrogen care creditsare all being now linked up and
we're actually thinking there.
Which is a quite interesting Wayof thinking, I believe, is that
you're not selling your carboncredits Because we know that
there will be a big growth intothe value of them and you want

(48:06):
to have hold the value withinyour project.
But we're using the carboncredits and the potential
equivalent carbon creditsattached to biomass or the water
cycle, which we still have tocertify.
But we will start the processInto the project as a bond, but
in other words, a guarantee forfuture investments.
The same for the fish you don'tcatch in the lagoon, which is a

(48:32):
lot because you want to dosustainable fishing.
That's your bonds for yourinvestment to do it and in this
way you can trigger thisfinancial system To create their
own security in the projectitself.
So they're always in there forthe long term.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
How would that work on on the carbon side, I
understand the non selling pieceimmediately, like the holding
and Holding it's or not theholding is holding, and but how
would that Then triggered thenecessary flows?
Like how do you make sure, howwould that trigger the security,
or how would that create, let'ssay, a flow of capital, even

(49:12):
though you didn't sell the, thecredit?
So didn't transfer theownership, sorry.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah, so what we did, for example, on the aquatic
potential fish growth, and wecreated with, with the
University of Wageningen, a newtype of fishing Quotas over the
full ecosystem, where, withother words, your fishing
enables ecosystem growth.
So it's a holistic view onlooking on how to catch your

(49:40):
surplus of fish, which shouldn'tbe there, which enable the rest
of your ecosystem to recoverquicker.
So the first part is reallyyour fish, where we have already
Locally In the nation and alsotowards Europe, agreements with
potential fish off takers.
So the first grant or the firstloans are coming back on that

(50:03):
and there will be a grant comingfrom some cause.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
That's almost like that's investable because you
know, and that's why I'm in thepoint you made before, like
aquatic systems are Fascinatingbecause they're much faster.
Fish, let's say, demand isgrowing, absolutely needed to be
much more sustainably managed.
But we've also seen examples inthe past, I think, of coastal

(50:25):
areas where, through a loansystem and through quotas,
fishermen or fish people haveLeft it to rest and then started
harvesting the surplus overtime and very successful
examples like that's.
You know, like with this,interventions like the fish will
come back in in significantnumbers because of the speed and
because of the intervention.

(50:46):
Yet so that's, that's the.
That's why you say I keepfocusing on fish, because of all
the other stuff is important,but the fish is the entry point
because we need a lot more fish.
We have the value of fish, weknow how much extra fish there
will be soon.
Like this is another 10 year,20 year thing.
This is not.
These are not trees, these arefish.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, and by predicting your aquatic growth
in the years ahead, not on theindividual species, but on type
of trophic levels or key species, I can see future fish growth
coming up.
Which part of that money Iinvest back to pay the fishermen
if they put the fish back.

(51:23):
So I'm going to report them,but putting the fish back they
shouldn't do, and I go toadditionally award them above
the market value to catch thefish.
But you need to catch.
So there, we did this.
And in the same time, in thisinvestment I will put my first
blue carbon.
So which are the salt margins?

(51:44):
It's already certified.
I put that as a grand or as aguarantee on that loan, and they
are willing to accept it and Itell them listen, this holds a
value and the value and I stickto the blue carbon which is
already certified, but in thesame time I'm going to start up

(52:04):
the certification process toshow you it's way more than only
carbon.
It's nitrogen, it's the water,it's the evaporation it does,
etc.
So listen, guys, not only yourcarbon price will rise, so your,
your guarantee will becomestronger.
We can put it to a value or youcan take some additional profit
on it.
Manolo, after I did this, I'mgonna almost four times increase

(52:27):
my values in there.
So you can start seeing that byholding this value within your
project scope, within the localcommunity scope, you can very
quickly build way betterinvestment opportunities For
attract more loans and then,after you did that first process
, at a certain moment you canstart selling them off if you
would like to.

(52:48):
But it principally we need inthe beginning Lots of
investments, which is alwaysgood to stick that into that
guarantee thing.
So it's just an accelerator howto bring a more capital and
they are liking a lot thisapproach.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
They meaning the large investors you're talking
to now, and so what would youremain?
I'm trying to be conscious ofyour time as well and We'll try
to end with a few quickerquestions, which never works,
but that let's.
Let's try to do that.
And what would be your mainmessage to, and let's say, a
room I'm for sure you've givenpresentations on that to a room

(53:26):
of quote, unquote finance people, investors, that are either
investing their own money, otherpeople's money and on this
thinking If there, because I canimagine there's it's a lot of
info and a lot of inspirationand a lot of Education and
knowledge as well.
But if you had to boil down toone, one main message, if you

(53:48):
want people to walk out of thatroom and remember something,
what's your main takeaway?

Speaker 2 (53:54):
What I always normally do is, besides from the
values next to carbon, it canvery easily reduce the risk on
your investment and byholistically start thinking a
natural system you cannotmanipulate.
So you start with creating thisnatural system and it will give

(54:18):
you answers on very differenttopics, whether it are refugees
or whether it's a drinking one,etc.
So what we normally say is tothem in the holistical process,
it reduces your risk on theshort term and increases your
benefits in the longer term.
And if you look into a completewater cycle, you can also

(54:39):
deviate from earlier gains to amore longer term gain.
So the good thing aboutthinking large is you can spread
your risks and your turnoversin a more easier way, and this
is what I normally explain tothem and this is what they very
much like.
We're now going to step in intosome mangrove restoration

(55:02):
projects where we're alsoapplying the same methodology to
reduce the risks and to providemore benefits along the whole
life term, if that answers yourquestion.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
And if you would be in charge let's flip the seats,
for now you will be in charge ofquite a significant investment
fund, like in this kind of watercycle restoration projects.
A billion dollar doesn't soundlike a lot, but it's still a lot
.
If you would have to put abillion dollars to work without
any restrictions, the only waywould be it had to be an

(55:36):
investment, so at some point butit could be very, very long
term it had to come back.
What would you do?
I'm not asking for exact dollaramounts.
I'm asking where would youfocus?
Would that be specifically ontechnology, maybe modeling?
Would it be on some early loans?
Would it be on developers andproject developers like, and
contractors, like the weathermakers?
What would be your focus if youhad a billion to put to work?

(55:57):
Stay the way you start, staythe way you start a project,
straight away.
Start and that.
What would that be?

Speaker 2 (56:04):
Dredging.
Go up for a proper lagoon.
I can tell you 53 in theMediterranean basin.
They all can become way moreproductive than they are right
now.
Go to the lagoon, call up adredger, sit down with the local
communities, explain to themhow their history was, see if
they want this and startdredging and start restoring an

(56:27):
aquatic ecosystem.
And to show to the people thatthis is always the start of a
very quick recovery of a naturalsystem which can feed the
people with food security andsocial security and improve
their livelihoods.
With the evaporation and can isalways the start of your
watershed approach and I wouldgo to the people that would need

(56:48):
it the most.
Go to Northern Africa.
Help people in the dramaticsituations they are now there.
They still hold lots ofindigenous knowledge which are
way closer to a natural, propermanagement than we are and go
help and support and worktogether and collaborate and

(57:09):
share as much as possibleDirectly.
If I would really be in charge,I would start AACB.

Speaker 1 (57:17):
And would you?
Would that mean somewhere elsethan when you're working now, in
the sense of you say, let'smaybe find a place where it's
easier easier in allcircumstances to show and then
sort of create a bit of FOMO,and what would you pick as the
first one?
You said where people need itmost.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
That's not always the easiest, that's a political
backing A billion.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
Yeah, you can do a lot, but you can also lose it
very quickly.
But for me I would.
Would you do Spain?
Would you do Morocco?
Most likely, who's likely?

Speaker 2 (57:55):
No, but for some reasons you have to realize if
you want to inspire and show tothe people the force of nature,
go to the people that have itthe worst at the moment, because
they will way easier be seenthe positive changes by the
wheel they have been dredgingthere for 100 years so they know
what it means.

(58:20):
And this Egypt needsinternational support by the
stupid war in the Ukraine andthe food prices going skyrocket.
So I would go there because ifEgypt gets into a more, worse
situation, my friend, it's goingto be a very, very difficult
situation with the now and allthe countries.
I would go there, but of courseI've dedicated my life to it

(58:43):
for six and a half years, so itwould always be strange for me
to say that that would startsomething else.
If you would tell me I wouldhave 2.5 million, I would start
straight away here, across frommy farm, at the Muse.
Buy a little bit of a piece ofland, build a little bit of a
morphological pool where I'm nowdiscussing it with the minister
, and all of this stuff.

(59:04):
Show in the Netherlands you canbuild a holistic value
proposition based upon theweathermaking approach or the
water cycle, and show that.
Open it up to the world and say, go for it.
So it really depends the budgetyou give me.
Where are we?

Speaker 1 (59:20):
starting and as a final question.
You don't have a billionanymore, unfortunately, but you
do have a magic wand, and thatmeans you can change one thing
overnight, but one thing only.
What would that be?

Speaker 2 (59:35):
If I could change in this system.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
In anything globally.
I usually ask food and egg, butit could be like, could be
terrestrial, it could be watersystems.
One thing it's true magic,which means it does change
overnight, could be restore allthe marshes, could be anything,
or consciousness like anythingyou want.
But what would you do if youhad that magic power?

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yeah, but then I would say restore the water
cycle in the Sinai, because thatwill stop the leakage, that
will start bringing moremoisture in the surrounding
areas, whether it's Lebanon,israel or whether it's going to
be Libya, and from there we canstart restoring it.
There will be more water cominginto the Nile because you stop
it, so you reduce the conflict.
Currently start building uphere in Egypt with all those

(01:00:23):
lands and from there we can showit directly.
Without a doubt it's going tobe a cycle.

Speaker 1 (01:00:31):
I want to thank you so much for this.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Sorry, go ahead Now, because I can tell you I just
got a friend of mine is actuallywalking on Korsika.
Let's stop with this.
Just to explain to you how damnsure I am about the big thing.
He's just walking on Korsika.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
I will wrap up.
I will wrap up One second, okay, oh, you want to record?

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
this as well.
I want to tell it.
He's walking, please go ahead.
He's walking on Korsika Now andI told him my friend, go to the
Southeast side.
He's now working with mealready for a year on this
project when you find the LevantTerraces which you have all the
islands in the Mediterranean onthe Southeast side.

(01:01:14):
I was walking there myself andsaw Levant Terraces.
The sign is the Levant, thatdon't play.
So I called me.
I'm going to say yeah, yeah,what's this what we got?
Levant Terraces here?
Yeah, tease.
But you know that very, verylong ago, the wind, the wind
terrain would come from theLevant and that's exactly what

(01:01:37):
we're showing here with thatcyanide.
Yes, we start looking back inthe historical facts.
We can see that answer.
Yes, we can change If we want.
I'm not talking about the wholesocial processes, because we
need to fully use the indigenousknowledge, et cetera, but if we
want, we can easily re-green.

(01:02:00):
25% of our planet is a desertand if we restore functional
ecosystem with functionalwatersheds, we're not living
with too many people on thisplanet.
We're now doing too much stupidstuff with too many people on
this planet.
We need to, as a paradigm shift, only, you would say, start
understanding we're part of anatural system and together with

(01:02:24):
all of our organic families thebeavers, the fishes, the Elgis,
the birds we can restore thesewatersheds and if we do, there's
a beautiful future perspectiveahead of us.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
It's fascinating that that knowledge was and is there
, and the winter rains come fromthe Levant, of course, and we
have to rediscover through allthe models and all the research
and all the reading and callingexperts, obviously like me and
me.
I want to thank you so much,thies, for your time.
I think we could do another fewhours, but I want to be

(01:02:58):
conscious of your time and thetime of our listeners.
I invite you all to dive muchdeeper into the topics.
We only literally scratch thesurface.
Pan definitely intended in thiscase, and thank you so much for
the work you do and thank youfor coming on here to share
about it.
Thank you, thank you so muchfor listening all the way to the

(01:03:26):
end.
For the show notes and links wediscussed in this episode,
check out our website investingin RegenderWagerculturecom.
Forward slash posts.
If you liked this episode, whynot share it with a friend or
give us a rating on ApplePodcast?
That really helps.
Thanks again and see you nexttime.

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241 Ties van der Hoeven - The regreening project we can’t afford not to do, restoring the water and weather systems in the Med, starting with fish

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}241 Ties van der Hoeven - The regreening project we can’t afford not to do, restoring the water and weather systems in the Med, starting with fish