A check in conversation with Stef van Dongen, founder of The Pioneers of Our Time. Sitting at the fireplace we trace how neighbors who barely spoke began phoning across ridgelines, how tourism money are flowing uphill to fund forest work, and how a dense, abandoned woodland started opening into a living mosaic that holds water, softens fire, and invites wildlife back.
We walk through the mechanics of a cost-based climate credit that pays for what a hectare truly needs over 15 years measured across water, carbon, biodiversity, and fire safety. It's a public–private framework that the regional government helps certify: pilots sold out, and a thousand credits are now in sight as the valley scales from dozens to thousands of hectares, all within a 40,000-hectare fire prevention plan designed to be holistic from day one.
The conversation goes deeper into governance and replication. How do you manage a watershed you don’t own? Start with trust, map the layers- forest, water, biodiversity, agriculture, economy- and build a campus where scientists, foresters, and investors can monitor, learn, and iterate. We compare desalination’s billion-euro price tags to the cheaper, cleaner gains from soil sponge restoration. We talk predators and grazers, “green deserts” and beavers, and the hard pivot from carbon-speak to water security, a narrative that resonates across politics because everyone needs a shower, a harvest, and a forest that won’t explode each summer.
==========================
In Investing in Regenerative Agriculture and Food podcast show we talk to the pioneers in the regenerative food and agriculture space to learn more on how to put our money to work to regenerate soil, people, local communities and ecosystems while making an appropriate and fair return. Hosted by Koen van Seijen.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
From the Muga Valley, one of the largest
(00:02):
watershed regeneration projectsI know, we talk about nature
credits, taking intoconsideration water, carbon,
biodiversity, regenerativeforest management, but most
importantly, how to build trustagain between communities living
in the valley, trust betweenpeople living there, but also
with local and regionalauthorities.
This is a region which, if thereisn't a strong series of
(00:22):
interventions over the nextyears, most likely will be hit
by a massive, massive forestfire, which will burn all the
way to bus country.
And slowly that sense of urgencyis landing.
What is needed is a lot ofexperiments and then a lot of
public-private partnerships,which is easier said than done,
as most of you know.
But it seems to be going reallyfast in this landscape.
(00:44):
And we try to find out why.
We talk about why the smallwater cycle restoration space is
still not really landing withpeople, policymakers, investors,
entrepreneurs, and what to doabout it.
So make a cup of tea, a warmsoup, and enjoy us in the very
first ever fireside chat.
Literally.
This is the Investing inRegenerative Agriculture and
(01:05):
Food Podcast, where we learnmore on how to put money to work
to regenerate soil, people,local communities, and
ecosystems while making anappropriate and fair return.
We're next to a fire, you'regonna hear some logs falling.
It's very hot here.
It's very hot.
It's not very cold outside.
So we have the fire mostly forthe atmosphere, not really for
(01:27):
the temperature.
It's true.
It was 20 degrees outside today.
But also to use some of the woodto regenerate the forest.
It was easier to do a talk atthe fire compared to a walk in
the forest around the home ofthe pioneers of our time.
And having a check-inconversation was March 23 that
(01:49):
we were here.
We're now recording in November25, so that's two and a half
years.
And a lot of things are movingnot only through the forest.
We saw a fox literally 10minutes ago outside the house
trying to probably eat the foodof the dogs.
Yesterday we hear the wolves.
Yesterday we heard the wolves,which weren't there three years
(02:10):
ago.
And I think it was one likewalking coming, and now they're
a pair.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Yeah.
They settled in the valley.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
So there's uh a lot of life coming back.
There's still a lot of life.
We saw a lot of deer on thehikes in the past days.
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Skies are filled with filtures.
Over a hundred?
Over a hundred four species.
Two of the species are breedingalready.
And the other one you'reinviting with puppets.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Yes.
Which sounds very wrong, butwe'll get to that.
Anyway, you hear the laughter ofSteph.
Last time when we recorded, Iremember many people commenting
on the amount of birds we had,because I think we recorded
around dawn, whatever it is,sunset.
And the birds were absolutelyplaying a concert.
So many people remember thatepisode of it.
And now we're gonna have the onewith the fire.
(02:55):
So welcome back, Steph.
Thank you.
Welcome to the podcast.
It's great to have you aftersuch a beautiful soil hangout.
We had some amazing peoplehanging out with us, many fires.
Not for the temperature.
Walks, long walks, good sauna,swims.
Yep.
Amazing weather helped.
It could be rainy and cold atthis time of year.
SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
At this time of the year, it's during the day, it's
beautiful, 20 degrees, and thenat night it gets colder.
So I like to experience theseasons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
And not so much rain in this week, but I think in
October you had more, which iswhich is important because
that's one of the big topics inthis valley water.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
And the last few years were dry, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah.
This is the first year after Ithink six years of drought.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Wow.
And so just to paint a bit of apicture, of course, we'll link
the previous conversation andhow you ended up here in the
northeast of the Pyrenees on theSpanish side, but very close to
the French border.
We're in the Muga Valley, it's alot of forest, abandoned
charcoal forest, abandonedforest, that's why it burned so
well.
In need of regeneration, and youlanded here after a long walk
(04:02):
and started listening and thenbuilding and inviting people.
And so I would love to see andhear how that, apart from the
wolves being back, but howthat's been going.
Because you said very famouslylast time you're ahead of
schedule.
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Is that still the case?
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Has the schedule also evolved, or what's what do
you sense?
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Actually, last year we made our new strategy plan
for the coming three years, andthis year we have to make our
new strategy plan.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Because it's going so fast.
Yeah.
Wow.
And what is that?
Or what do you feel?
Right moment, like timing isalways everything in any
venture.
SPEAKER_00 (04:41):
I think that the time invested in listening and
observing what's actuallyhappening here, and then
identifying that the themes andthe interests that we have in
common in the differentcommunities is starting to pay
out.
So we've been investing a lot oftime and effort and also
resources in building trust andrelationships between people and
(05:04):
identifying what are really thehopes and the wishes, but also
the fears of people.
And so it turned out to bewater, security, fire safety,
work and housing, and then trustin society as the main themes
that people are concerned aboutor interested in.
Now the running GEC and ourteam, this we go with the speed
(05:26):
of trust.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Because it's one of the big issues and challenges.
Not very common, even betweenvillages that are super close to
each other, share a lot ofthings, except maybe one or two
cultural differences.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Never talked to each other.
For years we were the first onesbringing people together.
Yeah, so that's that's trulyspecial.
But it uh in practice it reallyworks out.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Which means people pick up the phone when they need
something, they go to anothervillage.
Is it also trust with, let'ssay, the institutions?
Both local government, regional?
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
Yeah, I think it builds up.
Yesterday there was a hunterhere, and he said he got a phone
call from Taradas, which is twovillages upstream the muga.
And he was really surprised thatfrom Teradas they called to a
hunter in Albanya to see how isthis and this in Albania, and
they asked a specific question.
And he said that this is becauseof the festival, because now the
(06:33):
festival is like growing into afestival of three villages:
Albania, San Lorenzo, andTerralas.
And people start to speak witheach other and start relating to
each other, that's reallybeautiful to see.
And from the festival, alsopeople start to express
themselves, and there was the,for instance, an example, the
need to install septic tanks intheir villages.
(06:56):
And so, like that coming fromthe community itself, interested
the state government, so theystarted to become more and more
engaged on this topic, but onseveral topics.
And so that facilitation of therelationship between the
neighbors, basically ourneighbors, the different
villages, the governments, themayors, and then up to the
(07:19):
different departments in thestate government is really
valuable.
And the relationship with thestate secretary, the minister,
but also with local researchinstitutes became much, much,
much stronger.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Also, because a big piece of the story here is the
disconnect between, let's say,the seaside, which is the huge
tourism industry of the CostaBrava Nord, and the mountain,
and the mountains, because itleads all the way to Andorra,
basically, and beyond thatdisconnect of water to begin
with, but also other like waterquality and quantity, obviously.
(07:55):
Do you see, let's say, thetourism industry slowly turning
around and not only looking atthe sea, but also sometimes
looking at the mountain andstarting to at least engage,
maybe also invest in where theirwater comes from and the stress
that is there, because theseyears of drought put a lot of
stress on the agriculture piece,and then finally also on the
(08:15):
tourism piece, of course.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Because people want to shower, they want their
swimming pools, and that becamedifficult.
During those years of drought,there was a state of emergency
where people could not filltheir swimming pools, couldn't
wash their cars, crops hadfailed.
So it was right in the face ofpeople.
And now is that a bit differentin this year of quite a bit of
rain.
(08:37):
I think people forget easily,but I think there's a change in
mindset that has been reached.
Where before, when we started,there was an ultimate disconnect
between the source area and thesea area.
Where you see now also throughthe documentary that has been
made, the media that we havebeen reaching out, that people
sort of become aware where theirwater is coming from.
(08:59):
And even the tourism industry isnow willing to buy climate
credits, the nature credit thatwe have developed, to actually
maintain and work in the forestupstream.
So that's, I think, it's a hugeachievement.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Because what are those credits and how do they
work?
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
We call it a climate credit here, but basically it
has the same characteristic as anature credit, as we know it in
Europe.
It looks at one hectare offorest with four indicators like
carbon, water, biodiversity, andfire safety.
And the credit is cost-basedinstead of a normal carbon
market mechanism.
This is a cost-based credit.
If you look at what is the costto actually improve this hectare
(09:37):
of forest in such a way thatthose four criteria are actually
increasing in value.
The cost here is 4,000 euros perhectare to do the work.
But if you look for more in thesouth of Spain, south of
Catalonia, where also pilotshave been executed, the cost of
credit can be 3,000 euros.
Per year or one time?
It's one time for 15 years.
(09:58):
So there's the it's apublic-private partnership that
we created with the government.
The state government is actuallycertifying the hectare of forest
before the works, then we sellthe credit, then we do the
works, and they come again andthey certify the works after,
and then they monitor for 15years.
So it's place-based, cost-based,climate credit with an holistic
(10:21):
view.
We actually connect it to ourlandscape plan to see, okay,
where can we actually designatezones that need this
improvement, of course, ourecological hotspots or fire
prevention, or this is ourstrategic water capture spots.
Yeah, because one hectare, ofcourse, doesn't have a huge
impact.
SPEAKER_01 (10:37):
You need it connected or concentrated to
start influencing water flow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
Yeah, so we sold out our first pilot this year, it
was 58 hectares, and we're soldnow almost 70 hectares more for
the next step where we're goingto scale up.
And our ambition is to sell athousand credits in the coming
couple years to actually pavethe road for the bigger scale-up
where we need to work 10,000hectares of forest.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
And the work does it depend on the different.
Do you do tests there as well?
Because of course it need to becertified.
Like, what does the work intakejust for people to imagine the
forest here?
There's a great shortdocumentary as well.
I think it's about 10 minutes onYouTube to see.
Of course, there's the MugaValley documentary, and which is
about 30 minutes.
(11:25):
So if you want to some visuals,you can find it.
But just for people that arecurrently running somewhere,
walking, cooking, etc., what'sthe forest look like and what
does the forest look like afterthe works?
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
So if you have to imagine the watershed, 100,000
hectares, of its almost 50,000hectares, is dense, but a dense
forest where you oak forestcombined with pine trees that
you basically cannot enterbecause of the density.
This will this is actuallycausing a lot of problems
ecologically wise, but alsowater security-wise and fire
(11:59):
safety-wise, because of course,such a dense forest that is
basically in a cycle of gettingdrier and drier because of the
structure of the forest isvulnerable for fires, big fires.
And it's also depleting thesoil, so the soil cannot capture
the water anymore.
So that's why we're looking atimproving the forest and helping
(12:19):
it to bring helping the forestto become a diverse mosaic
forest again.
So before you see a super denseforest where that's basically
inaccessible, and then after theworks, you can find basically
three types of forest density.
That's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Like you're going with a lot of people chopping
down, mulching, reducing, etc.
How much it's the cost of 4k perhectare?
And then what happens after?
Is there maintenance or what'sneeded to keep the forest in
that state, or what's an idealnext state of the afternoon?
SPEAKER_00 (12:57):
The ideal next state is what we are figuring out.
Like the most logical would be acattle.
Cow is like you have here thealbera, which is a native cow
that is in the threatened byextinction.
So that's a cow that is actuallyadopted to this kind of mountain
and climate.
Goats, but because of the almostextinction of the profession of
(13:18):
the shepherd.
But also we look at rewildingstrategies where you have wild
grazers basically being managedby also a shepherd, but on a
very less intense way.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Because you need a large ruminant back into this.
You have a lot of wild boar, alot of deer, but no larger
ruminant basically that keepsthe forest intact.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
No.
Actually, the wild boar is a bigproblem for this kind of forest.
It's an omnivore.
It eats everything, so includingyoung plants, but also young
animals.
So biodiversity is likedecreasing while this population
is growing very fast.
They reproduce like sometimesfour times a year.
So while having this abandonedforest becoming denser and
(14:07):
denser, drier and drier.
Underneath the only animal thatcan live there is basically the
wild boar and a deer.
And they actually deplete theforest even further.
And so you get a green desert.
How big is the problem?
I would not know the numbers inthe millions of wild boars.
No, the thousands, thousands.
(14:30):
Here in this area.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
And then by by having it more as a mosaic
forest, their natural or theirfavorite habitat gets reduced
and they might or move or gethunted.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
Yeah, and predators are coming naturally coming
back.
So we have now the wolf is back,the wild cat is back, but also
different types of isles arecoming back, the villages, of
course, but the golden eagle.
We're waiting for the lynx tocome back.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
And so when waiting is in you're putting it actively
out there, or you're waiting forit to naturally.
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
We're creating the habitat for the lynx.
So we're opening up.
Oh no, the lynx actually needsrabbits and actually not opening
up the forest, it's a forestanimal.
But we're creating habitat forthe lynx.
Yeah, and if those animals comeback, you will see that the
natural pattern of moving willcome back also, but with those
and with the wild boar and thedeer, and they will start
migrating again, or like I said,moving faster over the different
(15:28):
areas.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
On the food side, you said last time that was
going slower than you werehoping on the agriculture side
because you discovered a lot ofthis wildlife loves a market
garden, and the cows prefer thelocal football pitch compared to
the forest.
Yeah.
How is the food side, like theagriculture side going?
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
Actually, with the new love in my life, the project
grew towards the sea in Palamos.
That's why we now speak aboutfrom the source to the sea and
the project.
And so most of the agriculturehas moved towards the sea area.
Which has less pressure, moreevents.
Also.
So there we have now the marketgarden, three hectares, we have
(16:45):
wine fields, we have olivegardens, we have sheep making
our own milk and all kinds ofproducts with the milk.
Here still we have the chicken.
And the moment we are we justbought a new property where we
hope to invite a farmer to comeback and work whatever this
person wants to work with, butwe hope with goats or like
(17:07):
animals to bring back animals inthis area, maybe rosemary.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Who knows?
Because herbs and of course thestuff that gets eaten less by
our wildlife friends isinteresting.
Essential oils is then a usualquote unquote suspect.
Has it been anything you lookedinto in terms of forest products
or except for a lot of wood thatwe're listening to?
But what can the forest even intransition quote unquote produce
(17:34):
that could be of value, or hasthat been tricky?
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
There's some obvious products, which is the truffle.
So we have a lot of wild trufflehere, and it means you could
also like create a you knowtruffle plantation.
So that's one lot of rootproducts.
So potatoes from the mountainsare popular.
Olive is a good product here.
The olive tool and olive foodconsumption.
And of course, meat and milk.
(18:01):
Those are the most obvious pigsthat are being fed with the
acorns, acorns, those kind ofthings.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
And on the finance piece, you've done a lot of work
as well on the governance,because basically what you're
trying to do, and I think that'spretty unique in the world, is
how to manage almost a fullwatershed.
Of course, without owning it,how do you influence such a
massive 100,000 hectares, whichmost people can't even phantom
(18:27):
how big that is, and how do youregenerate that whole thing
without, I don't know, raising agazillion dollars and buy
everything.
Because it's great if you'redoing your 400 hectares, even
your 800 hectares, whatever thenumber is, but if around you the
rest is still degrading and thefire comes, yeah, nothing will
stop that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
That's interesting because I think two and a half
years ago our main vision waswe're gonna regenerate the Mula
Valley and the watershed.
We were piloting many ideas bythat time, like the cows and the
rosemary, of course, tourism,many things.
And I think our narrative hasrefined, but also our strategy
(19:06):
has become much more clear.
Where, of course, the mainobjective is to help the rivers,
the forests, and the soys tobecome healthy again.
I think that's one.
And we knew from the beginningthat the social fabric, creating
this social fabric, this trustand relationship between the
people would be vital to foractually doing our work.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
How did you discover that by the way?
Like how that's such anabsolutely fundamental piece to
recreate connections, to rebuildtrust.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
I think my history with NVU, working in Africa and
India, and Southeast Asia, thatwas one of the main issues.
Not having trust, it's justfinding ways how to create
trust.
When I first came here, what Isaw is that the people didn't
speak like there was a lot ofgossip between people, two
villages, but they never visitedeach other.
(20:01):
So through the pizza parties Iorganized was basically the
people got to know each other.
But the trust was so low that tothe level that people were
stealing from each other.
There's a funeral in the nextvillage, and during the funeral,
like the house was being robbed.
And those kind of examples arenot day-to-day but common.
And also with my conversationswith the politicians who were
(20:23):
fearing the moment of chaos.
Because if there's low trust insociety, like chaos is easy to
emerge.
There were different signs thatI thought that should be one of
the topics to work with,especially a foreigner coming
here.
You are like three pointsbehind.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Of course.
And so how did you because inthe documentary, and also in
general, I think when people askquestions, you're very clear on
it's not you doing the work,it's not you running the
foundation, and it's a verydeliberate strategy as a
foreigner in a valley that youdon't have any roots of.
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
I don't have any roots.
The valley is traumatized bycivil war and the dictatorship.
There's something that's reallyalive here.
Yeah, I made a clear decisionthat first we have a foundation
and the business, and I feel I'mmore of a value in the business
the day to day, and I can bemore of inspiration and coach
(21:28):
for the foundation team.
Also, to let highly qualifiedpeople leading the foundation
and sitting in the board of thefoundation is giving a big sign
of trust from me to them, butalso I think they're much more I
say equipped to do the work.
(21:49):
They talk to the people of thesame nationality, same culture,
same language.
SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
Yeah, but it's often not an easy step to not just
stay in the middle of theattention, and everything has to
go through the founder.
It's not an easy transition formany people, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I learned a lot at NVU.
Previous experience.
And also, I think it has to dowith the urgency and the urgency
can make you want to go faster.
I see what needs to happen inthis forest.
Let's go and in this valley.
My former mentors, I've got twoquotes from them.
One is the grass won't growfaster when you start pulling
it.
So that's one.
(22:30):
Many farmers will remember thatquote.
unknown (22:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
And it's so true.
The other one, if you want to gofast, you go alone.
And if you want to far, you gotogether.
And if the work that we have todo here has never been done
before, it's so big you cannever do it alone.
So you have to go together, andthose processes need their time.
So people are ready when they'reready.
(22:53):
And I felt here very welcome.
I felt there's an energy andthere's a very active community
that want to do things together.
And I think I helped them withnew perspectives.
And so one on one is three.
And I think that's why it workedso really well.
And one of the prerequisites forgetting there was I felt away
from the beginning, I should notgo into the foundation.
(23:16):
That will speed up andaccelerate things if I won't.
I can be the entrepreneursupporting the foundation with
capital, with capacity, withnetwork, with bringing funders
to the foundation and expertise.
This is how it went, and this ishow it's going, and it works
really well.
Yeah.
But going back to the story andfiguring out our strategy,
(23:37):
helping the forests, the rivers,and the soils to become healthy
again, building this strongsocial fabric first to actually
start working then next onbringing work and life back to
the valley, to the watershed.
And there we focus on basicallyfinance.
So, how can we build a financialvehicle or framework that's
(24:00):
actually going to fund thisregeneration and this
regenerative economy, thesenature-based solutions, that
actually will accelerate theregeneration of the valley?
So think of a biochar factory ora core processing plant or
nature tourism.
Those kinds of economicactivities will bring work back
(24:20):
to the valley.
And so we are looking actuallyhow can we lay the groundwork
for this larger bioregionalinvestment vehicle over the
coming years?
Because we need hundreds ofmillions actually to regenerate
this watershed.
80% of Catalonia has a forestsurface.
And so you talk a lot of money.
But before we get there, wethink we need transition finance
(24:41):
instruments, financialinstruments like the credits,
like a water fund, like perhapsother things that we can come up
with.
Then both slowly we'll evolve inthis bioregional financial
vehicle.
And the third thing wediscovered that we already
started doing from thebeginning, coming from this
trust and relationship, is likewhat's actually unique perhaps
(25:02):
in Catalonia is the governmentsaid, yes, we cannot do it
alone.
We need the private sector andwe need the civil society and
science to actually do ittogether.
And I think that attitudeactually accelerated a lot of
our work as well.
Because now we're working to abi-regional governance system.
So like having the watershed asa basically a unit of
(25:25):
governance, which then will bethe foundation for society and
the economy and ecology.
And again, we thought instead ofproposing this bi-regional
governance model, we said, no,we will start small with smaller
examples so people startunderstanding what we're talking
about, and then in the endcombine things.
(25:46):
And so the first thing westarted with is the fire
prevention plan.
We figured out what is actuallyhappening on the aspect of fire
safety, and we found out nothingwas happening.
And so we created this fireprevention plan.
The past three years we've beenworking on it, and by the end of
this year, we actually will signoff the plan to actually govern
40,000 hectares of a forest in away that it becomes fire safe,
(26:10):
water secure, and brings backbiodiversity.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
And is that very close to the interventions
you're doing on those hectaresconnected to the credits?
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Exactly.
And so having such a plan, youcan then say, okay, what are the
hectares?
So 2,600 hectares of basically afire break, but then six and a
half thousand hectares aroundthose fire breaks, we actually
need to improve the forest andwe can work on the biodiversity
and the water situation.
And by making those forests lessdense, also the fire intensity
(26:42):
will be starting to lower downwhen like when they hit a fire
break.
What we did is basically thefirst public-private governance
model here around fire, and wemade it because we had a seat on
the table, we could ask if itcould be a holistic plan.
So not only for fire, we're alsousing our fire as a preventative
(27:04):
measure, but we also look reallyat biodiversity hotspots and we
studied the water situation in adifferent area.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
How many people are in the foundation?
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
So we have now a core team of eight people in the
foundation, and of course, theyare surrounded by experts,
freelance experts, like forestryexperts or like agriculture
region experts, water experts.
And in the company in the lowseason, we have 60 people in the
high season, 80 people.
And the company has evolved intobusiness activities,
(27:34):
hospitality, the home ofpioneers, and then Brugarol,
which is more agritourismconcept.
And farming, of course.
And then we have real estate andproperty management added to the
equation because we saw if youwant to bring back work and life
and start investing in businesshere, people need to live and
(27:55):
need to have a socialinfrastructure.
And it was like an absentactually thing.
So we thought, okay, we saw theopportunity, start building
houses.
And from building houses, we sawthe opportunity for the
replication.
So some things were starting towork.
How can we facilitate otherlandscapes in that way?
And we thought instead of goingout to the world, why don't we
(28:16):
invite people to the MugaValley?
So that's why we started nowbuilding physical infrastructure
for a campus to actuallyfacilitate replication and
education and attract scientiststo do the monitoring of the work
we're doing here, addingtechnology.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Have you come across other places where this kind of
work is happening at this scale?
Or this intensity as well?
Of course, there are peopleworking on landscape scale
regeneration and many parts ofthe world, friends of common
land, and a thousand landscapes,etc.
But I haven't seen yet at this,probably that it's happening
somewhere, but this kind ofspeed and this kind of holistic
(28:57):
watershed, really talking aboutokay, from the source to the
sea, like attempt to make animpact there literally on rain,
water, etc.
Are people coming here to seethat happening, or is it still
like a well-hidden?
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
No, I think in many places things are happening.
Today I was talking to alandscape in Scotland.
There are various landscapes inSpain, different levels actually
of maturity.
I think the big thing is thatthe level of maturity and the
level of holistic working.
I think there are not many thatwork as holistic as we do, but
(29:36):
there are many others that aremuch better, for instance, in
agriculture and region egg, orin water itself, or in finance.
But I think because we try tocombine the different elements
and we learn a lot from others,so it's a big adventure, I must
say.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
And I think since last time we talked as well,
specifically the topic of water,we've seen almost exactly a year
ago.
Devastating floods in Valencia,of course, many other places in
general, floods, drought, thatcycle has been, especially
around the Mediterranean, butmany other places, going quite
bananas, let's say.
(30:15):
And the attention is slowlystarting to pick up.
But then what follows or whatneeds to follow are
entrepreneurial people that stepin and say, okay, how do we put
the puzzle pieces in a landscapetogether to actually at scale
large enough to be able toinfluence a river and or rain
patterns, etc.
Because it's amazing on 400hectares, it's amazing on 800,
(30:36):
but that's not going to beenough.
How has been that conversationaround that kind of level of
(30:57):
scale and almost sciencefiction?
Can you actually influence ariver?
Can you actually influence rainpatterns?
I feel sometimes it's almost alack of imagination that we can
do that, even though we know wecan do it negatively, so why not
positively?
How do you deal with that veryday-to-day?
Okay, we need to do this hectareof forest versus this hectare of
forest, and we need the rabbitsback, et cetera, et cetera.
(31:19):
But actually, what we're tryingto do is here stabilizing
climate and bringing back summerrains that used to be here not
so long ago.
SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
In essence, we are bioengineering a microclimate,
and that's what we're doing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
But we say that to some people and funders as well.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Yeah, yeah.
This forest here, like not onlythis forest shed, but all the
watersheds behind here, likeit's all controlled by men for
centuries.
This forest is nothing isnatural.
And so why can't we help it tobecome healthy again as humans
as well?
So that's what I believe andthat what we're going for.
SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
It's funny because people see this forest and they
see a lot of trees.
And I said it last time as well.
If you don't have the intimateforest knowledge, you see a very
dense forest meeting.
Yeah, it's a very dense forest.
Then you notice there's not alot of life on the ground,
actually, nothing growing.
Then you start seeing, okay,actually, I cannot even walk
through, let alone look through,because a lot of the paths here
(32:18):
you would love to see the otherridge, and everything is more or
less two and a half, threemeters high, all the same
height.
It takes a bit of looking at andunderstanding like actually,
this is a forest that'sabsolutely not healthy and
suffering.
But also for funders that comehere or for investors, etc.,
it's not that you see that youthink, oh, yeah, a lot of green,
looks good.
SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
Yeah, exactly.
No, that's why also I live herebecause it is beautiful and it
looks good, but it is not.
The approach that we take isgoing step by step in the sense
of we did a pilot of a couplehundred hectares that's working,
that convinced people, thenwe're going into a pilot that's
a bit bigger.
(32:56):
The end game for the realscale-up is to just convince
governments that it's worthwhileto spend tax money on this
approach of managing andgoverning a watershed.
And so we think that proof isaround between the five and the
ten thousand hectares where wecan show effects on water, on
(33:18):
biodiversity, carbon, and firesafety.
We are starting now aconversation with the European
Investment Fund, the EuropeanInvestment Bank.
We're getting coaching from areally large public-private fund
in the Netherlands that helps usto structure and to facilitate
or coach us.
Like, how do you talk with thegovernment?
How do you bring the biginstitutional funders in?
And then those are two parallelpaths.
(33:40):
So making the case, building thevalue chain for regenerative
forestry, so regeneration, onthe one hand, bringing in
science through the campus thatactually can monitor the work
that we are doing and createpolicy papers, opinion papers,
and those kind of things.
Creating an educational programfor other landscapes that want
to come and learn, and come andshare, also, on the other hand,
(34:02):
and then working towards thatmoment that we say, okay, now we
have political will, there'sscientific proof, there is
institutional interest, and thenwe can do a first pilot, perhaps
100-200 million euros to work ona larger scale here in the
watershed, and perhaps twowatersheds.
(34:23):
And with that comes then a newtype of governance model, where
we see okay, what is thelife-supporting ecosystem that
we actually have to govern tolay the ground for the new
economy and society that we wantto, the world that we want to
live in, basically.
And that's not a geopoliticalway of looking or economic way
of looking.
It's like the water, like here'sthe canyou, that's France.
(34:45):
Actually, it's a big mountain ofalmost 3,000 meters.
It's guiding the clouds into thevalley, it's bringing water from
this high snow peak into theMuga Valley.
It's much more logical to createthis supranational governance
model than how we have designedit now and build an economy on
that.
(35:06):
I know it's very far-fetched,and perhaps I will never see it,
but I think that's the mostlogical way of designing our
future societies and economiesaround those life-supporting
ecosystems.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Where water is such a much more logical connector
than carbon is or or anythingelse.
Because yeah, we it fallssomewhere.
We can trigger it, which isinteresting.
A lot of research shows we caninfluence it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Water is the manifestation of the climate
crisis we have.
Especially in the Mediterranean,what do you see?
Forest fires and floods.
Where do they come from?
Dysfunctional watersheds.
Because the sponge why theforest is drying out and turns
into fire.
And of course, the soil cannothold the water anymore, because
in the watershed, 90% of thewater is being captured in the
(35:53):
sponge that is upstream in thesoil, and then releases the
water throughout the year intothe river systems and the
atmosphere.
That topsoil is gone.
And those you get floods.
Understanding that is actuallythe basis of our economy, it's
coming more and more.
SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
Do you see that landing as well in those
conversations with biggerinstitutional investors,
players, insurance, re-insurancecompanies, and government as
well that basically soil waterholding capacity is the key, one
of the key indicators to see ifyou have a risk of flood,
basically?
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
I think there's more and more air.
The situation becomes so urgentand important.
There's a need for solutions.
So people are willing to listenand willing to try.
I think the majority of ourdecision makers is still
technocratic oriented.
And so it's much easier to builda desalination plant than take
care of a watershed.
(36:50):
Which is much cheaper, actually,to take care of a watershed than
build a desalination plant.
This is what's happening here,huh?
So they just invested half abillion euros in this
desalination plants.
And the whole Spain, I think, isthree billion.
That's serious money.
Here with 200 million, we canrestore this watershed.
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
And do you have any indication then of how much
extra higher quality cleanerwater you can quote unquote
produce?
SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
That's already scientifically proven.
That 66% of the water we willlose, actually we can revive.
The water you will lose becauseof climate, because of climate
and because of I say thatdysfunctional soil management.
SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
And forest management.
And then the agriculture piece,because this first flows to
quite an active agricultureregion before it gets to the
coast.
How has been your interactionthere?
SPEAKER_00 (37:42):
We purposely started with the forest because that's
where the sponge is, and it'salso more easy to address in the
beginning.
Now we're actually goingdownstream.
First, we see if you godownstream, you see the
extensive agriculture, animalfeed or charts.
And then in the delta, let's saylike that, there's the intensive
(38:06):
agriculture using actually 70%of the water of the lake of the
Muga.
7-0, that's what.
Yeah.
We approach it in two ways.
We are slowly starting buildingthe coalition of region experts,
soil experts from also theunions, farmers, research
institutes that are actuallylooking at the water situation.
(38:30):
We're not there yet, because Ithink there's still a lot of
work to do in basicallyregenerative forestry, but also
the natural protected areas thatwe are managing.
We're managing now 5,000hectares of natural protected
areas.
We are managing 3,000 hectaresof forests for our neighbors.
We meaning the company.
The foundation.
So in total, we have 8,000hectares under management at the
(38:51):
moment, and we are driving thegovernance of more than 40,000
hectares.
So that's a lot of work.
Now we have to execute there.
So building the value chain andthe collision of forestry is our
priority at the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (39:06):
To increase the quantity of water before you
work on, let's say, the decreaseof the usage with the intensive
agriculture part.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
But parallel, now we we work with an organization
called ICRA, which is thegovernmental research institute
on water.
And they actually do an analysison the water use in the
intensive agriculture sector.
It's shocking to see, actually.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
So we have to talk less about the hotels and
campings on the coast, but a bitmore about the 30%, but 70%
probably more money in thecoastal.
SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
Exactly.
I think it's 23% of the GDP inCatalunya or in this area coming
from hospitality.
Is there in the agriculturepiece to connect?
I think the sector is under alot of stress.
They lost so much crops in thepast four years, five years.
(40:14):
And demanding subsidies and moresupport because they cannot cope
anymore.
And if you look at a lot of thefields, you see a lot of corn,
which causes a water-intenseproduct.
But it's an interesting sectorto look at.
And as I said, we're justtouching it now, and feeling and
(40:35):
observing again.
Actually, it's a new exercise ofemergence to observe, to listen,
what's happening, what are thereal worries, what are the
triggers of change.
Because it's very fundamentallydifferent than the forest.
Also, the political interest andeconomic interest are much
higher.
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
Fire is probably less of an issue.
But water and work are massiveones.
And so in a couple of years,what do you envision you and you
meaning the larger you with theteam have achieved?
And then maybe five years out aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
So what I see emerging is working in layers.
So you look at the watershedwith a layered perspective.
So you look at forest and fire,you look at water, biodiversity,
agriculture, and then economy,of course, and trust level
society.
And we're mapping that, it'ssuper interesting.
So that kind of evolve, likedeveloping that kind of way of
(41:33):
working and approach and tool asa sort of blueprint to basically
replicate into other landscapes.
That's my big hope.
That this campus will actuallyevolve in something a sort of a
lighthouse.
And that we are able to buildthis whatever it's called,
bioregional financial vehicle.
I call it now because I don'tknow what it actually will
(41:55):
entail.
In combination with this newgovernance model for a
bioregion, like a water, like adifferent watersheds.
I think that would be amazing.
I think we don't know yet whatis waiting for us because for
now we've always been the teddybear and very innocent, and we
have a lot of factor.
But I think now we're touching,we're going to touch the bigger
(42:16):
interest in society, and let'ssee how that's if there's
political will to do that.
And if we can make itapolitical, that's actually our
thinking now.
How can we make this apolitical?
And one of the ways that wethink it could work is we're
tapping into the securitypolicy, security economics of
Europe.
Because if you look at theclimate projections, it doesn't
(42:39):
look good.
Everybody is shit scared forsocial unrest because of the
lack of food and water we willhave and the fires that will
come.
So by bringing our projects andsay, okay, we could be best
practice for Europe to see howwe can create security by
bioengineering a microclimate ina global changing climate.
(43:01):
Where we think if we can provethat we can keep like at least
three to four degrees less than,for instance, in Madrid, because
in Madrid it's a projection ofeight degrees.
So it's like this becomesunlivable.
And so it becomes in theinterest of everybody, it
becomes a survival policy.
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Do you see that shift in the conversation going?
We see that sort of now inregen, food, and egg, going from
regenerative to resilience andfood security.
I don't think we've done a goodjob yet in really hammering down
that point of this is way morethan poison-free food production
(43:40):
or carbon in the soil.
This is nutrient security.
SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
And have you seen that language change or the
narrative as well?
Absolutely.
Again, because I think waterspeaks.
And here people experience thatif there's no water, life stops.
That's I think an advantage thatwe have over agriculture.
Like you say, nutrients is notyet that people didn't
experience not having nutrientsin their soils.
(44:07):
Water is like something veryvisual in your face.
You experience it right.
It's like a direct feedbackloop.
(45:05):
So I think it's a very strongnarrative.
And people love water.
We are water.
People can really identify withit.
So I think that's that's anarrative we found that works.
And that we are uh thriving onat the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (45:20):
So even in changing, more extreme political climates,
you don't see water going away.
SPEAKER_00 (45:27):
Water is uh apolitical in that sense.
It's a basic necessity for life.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Yeah, which is very interesting as a narrative.
Because in the climate movement,etc., we've always been carbon
emissions, etc., which became,especially in the last years,
absolutely a political theme andnot a good one.
Do you fear that water could gothe same route, or is it almost
impossible to make that apolitical?
SPEAKER_00 (45:55):
I won't see how they can make it political.
They can make it political andto exclude groups from water.
But I certainly hope not thatwill happen.
Because then the water is reallyfar away from where humanity
should be.
SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
From the Netherlands, etc., where you're
originally from, where water isa very different issue, even
though droughts now are becominga huge issue.
But usually the Netherlands, weare a country where water is
always there, probably a bit toomuch in some cases.
Does that the story of waterlands, because you're trying to
find investors, funders, etc.,from a place where water has
(46:32):
never been an issue to actuallyhear a place where water is an
issue and has been for the lastdecade?
SPEAKER_00 (46:39):
It's difficult to sell that narrative, let's say,
to large, like asset managers orpeople that are I think the
people in the Netherlands thatwork with water are shit scared.
The salination of the soilbecause of the changing water
levels is huge.
The fact that transport overrivers would not be possible
anymore in the coming not 10-20years in certain rivers, it's a
(47:04):
big problem.
And actually, the water qualityin the Netherlands, in the
natural water reservoirs, isdecreasing.
I think I heard it from anengineer.
They would not pass the Europeannorms at the moment.
So it's a bigger topic thanhydrogen.
Yeah, no, water quality is next.
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
And you probably don't want to swim nor drink
from a lot of rivers, etc.
I don't know how foreverchemicals has hit a nerve a lot
more than water quality.
I think the story is not outyet.
We need a good Netflix document,or so somebody listening
interested in that.
I talk to, of course, quite afew investors and funders, and
(47:43):
we talk about water.
The first response, not always,is hi, irrigation is very
important.
I'm like, yeah.
But this is about water cycles,the small one, the big one,
landscape scale regeneration toattract water or to stabilize
water flows, water vapor thatcools the planet.
Like this is a whole different.
And there you like already inthe first two words, you
(48:04):
basically lost half of theaudience.
And so I'm very curious what arenarratives, what are pieces that
work and that land with not witheveryone, but at least with
people that are leaning in andinterested, to get, first of
all, the knowledge up to speedof where we are now in terms of
what we know and what we don'tknow.
And then that there's an actionalternative, like there is a way
(48:25):
of leaning in and doing stuff.
And there's a potential scale.
We don't know how much, like wedon't know what is the tipping
point in a watershed, but we canstart asking those questions to
large language models, to bigmodels, and not only language
models, but actually computepower to say, okay, where in a
landscape, how many hectares ofthe 50,000, 60,000 hectares is
it 20,000 meter effect or 10 or30?
(48:48):
That's quite a difference inplanning any money before you
see rivers influence, but alsobefore you see rain patterns,
basically.
And those kind of discussionsare coming way more than a
couple of years ago, but I stillI see them mostly infringes on
some substacks, which areinteresting, but not necessarily
in boardrooms.
SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
I think the water world is such an interesting
space, mythical, mystical,almost spiritual in what in a
sense.
We don't understand how itworks.
Does the water cycles from thesea to the source?
Like clouds, like you say, liketrees inviting the clouds to
rain.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
We had it here at the table when I said that, I
think, and somebody was like,What?
How does that work?
And the forest releases certainparticles, I don't remember the
name.
They trigger, attract, and makeit rain or not.
And so you could say that thetrees make the rain, or and I
think there were some jawsdropped.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Yeah, yeah, and humidity in the forest and
cooling down, like atmosphere,the underground natural
deposits, no water deposits.
It's it's like fantastic howthat that whole system works.
And then if you speak to a waterscientist, like how the clouds
move and create basically zonesof humidity, like hundreds of
(50:05):
kilometers of humid soil guidedby mountains, it's fascinating.
How if you cut a tree line, howthe how clouds cycles are
disturbed.
It's like super interesting.
And we haven't designed oursocieties like that.
SPEAKER_01 (50:25):
We used to do in in India there were the holy rain
gardens that you were verystrategically through the
landscape.
I don't remember which part ofIndia.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
We had it with avant of uh safesoil.
And they were absolutelyforbidden to cut.
Of course, they were using thereligion to make sure you didn't
because they knew that was wherethe rain was making its trip
(50:47):
inland to make sure inland itwould rain.
And you need to strategicallyplace large enough, not
enormous, I don't remember theexact size, but large enough to
be very well wooded, healthyforest to make sure the rain
would make its little jumps allthe way.
And so it's not, but of coursethat was and now isn't.
And so I think we'll besurprised how little is needed
(51:09):
to influence that, but howstrategic probably in a
landscape.
Which will be fascinating tofind out.
Yeah, we're on the journey.
And with that, I think it's agood moment to wrap up.
The fire is quiet as you canhear, temperature is still warm.
(51:30):
I want to thank you for yourhospitality, for the work you do
in this massive watershed.
But there are, I think, I don'tknow, a number out there.
5,000 other ones around theMediterranean.
We're the smallest.
The smaller watershed in theIberian Peninsula.
So you pick the right one tostay unknowingly.
I'm not sure if that makes iteasier or more difficult, but
(51:52):
it's definitely an interestingone with the tourism industry,
have heavy, intensiveagriculture and a huge
ex-charcoal forest, it's still,which creates a lot of
challenges, but also a lot ofyou can see when you visit the
plots the impact of reductionand just reducing the wood, the
number of trees and wood, andyou immediately the light hits
(52:14):
and life starts sprouting andanimals change, etc.
It's very fascinating to see tosee that.
And of course, the big animals,the very famous one, the
vultures, the wolf, etc., help,but the little rabbit also,
because otherwise you're notgonna get a lynx.
Yeah, exactly.
The turtle, the beaver, like theriver animals back as well.
SPEAKER_00 (52:36):
Yeah.
Do you have beavers yet?
Not yet, no.
But we've been doing some testsat river artificial beaver dams.
Just to see if it floods.
How it would work and what wouldyeah.
But the beaver is coming alsotowards this direction.
SPEAKER_01 (52:55):
Um it's interesting how these animals travel.
Who if you can imagine greatdistances, but a beaver is not
the best walker, I think, interms of let's walk a hundred
kilometers to get to the nextwatershed.
SPEAKER_00 (53:05):
But I have heard they've been helped by uh
particular Englishman.
Which won't be named.
SPEAKER_01 (53:12):
No.
But yeah, we know.
Anyway, shout out if you'relistening.
Yeah.
Which is an interesting group ofpeople, by the way.
But that's for a whole differentpodcast.
I love them.
The pot uh the beaver, thebeaver crew.
There's a fascinating book aboutbeavers, which I'm blanking on
the title, which I'll put in theshow notes.
It's yeah, it's the biggest,what is it?
(53:33):
Land engineers.
What would happen if they'reback here?
Would they be protected?
Because they were huntedeverywhere.
Would they be protected?
Would they be welcomed?
Would it be as scary as when theforest came?
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
The otter was welcomed very much.
The beaver.
SPEAKER_01 (53:46):
The beaver makes dams, otter.
SPEAKER_00 (53:47):
And they live more upstream because there are no
people there.
So I think the first 20-23kilometers, I think they will be
living in peace.
Because people are in the firstthree villages here.
People are really nature lovers.
So that's I think is a bigadvantage to work here.
They really love their valleyand the forest here.
SPEAKER_01 (54:10):
But do they see beaver dams with the flooding
around, etc., as a an okay partof their valley?
As long as that's not affectingtheir house.
Doesn't affect their house,yeah.
That's usually there are ways tomanage that.
It would be fascinating to havethem have them back.
And yeah, looking forward tochecking again on the finance
piece, how to get the hundredsof millions.
SPEAKER_00 (54:32):
I'm super excited about that.
And also I'm super excited tosee how other people are so
super excited about it.
Because it's something someaningful if it works.
SPEAKER_01 (54:41):
We don't know if it's work, but if it works,
yeah, then we have a potentialsolution for other watersheds
that you don't have the luxuryof being able to reach a large
Dutch asset manager with yournetwork, obviously, you can be
that pioneer that maybe otherwatersheds, bigger ones, don't
necessarily have.
Thank you so much.
(55:02):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for listening to thisconversation.
It's the first ever we had onthe podcast a real fireside
chat.
Of course, we had some someothers in the past, but it was
always without a fire for goodreasons.
I think we had John Kemp atGroundswell, which was
incredibly warm, so a fire wouldhave been a bit out of
(55:24):
proportion there.
And let me know what you think.
I was really looking forward andreally enjoyed checking in with
Steph.
So much has happened since thelast time we spoke and we
recorded, and so much still, ofcourse, needs to happen.
But it's really interesting tosee how fast this work in a
landscape can go, and how fasttrust gets rebuilt, how suddenly
(55:49):
government programs becomeavailable if somebody puts
together, and not necessarilySteph, of course, the people of
the foundation, put together thepuzzle pieces.
Like so much needs to be done,but so much fuels that is
already going in a massivevalley, which is one of the
smallest watersheds in Spain,which raises a very interesting
question.
What can we learn here and applyelsewhere?
(56:10):
How do we look at protocols,lessons learned, steps they
said, they put, because ofcourse it's great if one
watershed gets restored,regenerated, etc.
But what about the others?
And we can only start reallydrawing down a lot of carbon,
really restore biodiversity, andincrease the small water cycle
(56:30):
if we do this at scale, whichmeans repeating, which means
other watersheds, etc.
So I'm very curious how thispublic-private partnership
spreads through Catalunya firstand then through the whole
Iberian Peninsula, and of coursearound the Mediterranean.
Like the Mediterranean is one ofthose focal points together, I
don't know, with the Amazon,with the Congo Basin, and some
other places where you justreally feel the need of
(56:54):
regeneration at scale very soonbecause the damage is already
happening, and I don't think therest of the world realizes how
important some of these hotspotsare, not only just for
biodiversity, etc., but reallybecause of weather patterns.
So we're gonna see, I think, alot of movements in this space,
and we are looking forward tokeep bringing them to you.
So thank you for listening andsee you at the next one.
(57:17):
Thank you for listening all theway to the end.
For show notes and linksdiscussed, check out our
website, investing inregenerative agriculture.com
slash posts.
If you like this episode, whynot share it with a friend?
And get in touch with us onsocial media, our website, or
via the Spotify app and tell uswhat you like most.
And give us a rating on ApplePodcasts or Spotify or your
podcast player.
That really, really helps us.
(57:38):
Thanks again and see you nexttime.
From the Muga Valley, one of the largest
(00:02):
watershed regeneration projectsI know, we talk about nature
credits, taking intoconsideration water, carbon,
biodiversity, regenerativeforest management, but most
importantly, how to build trustagain between communities living
in the valley, trust betweenpeople living there, but also
with local and regionalauthorities.
This is a region which, if thereisn't a strong series of
(00:22):
interventions over the nextyears, most likely will be hit
by a massive, massive forestfire, which will burn all the
way to bus country.
And slowly that sense of urgencyis landing.
What is needed is a lot ofexperiments and then a lot of
public-private partnerships,which is easier said than done,
as most of you know.
But it seems to be going reallyfast in this landscape.
(00:44):
And we try to find out why.
We talk about why the smallwater cycle restoration space is
still not really landing withpeople, policymakers, investors,
entrepreneurs, and what to doabout it.
So make a cup of tea, a warmsoup, and enjoy us in the very
first ever fireside chat.
Literally.
This is the Investing inRegenerative Agriculture and
(01:05):
Food Podcast, where we learnmore on how to put money to work
to regenerate soil, people,local communities, and
ecosystems while making anappropriate and fair return.
We're next to a fire, you'regonna hear some logs falling.
It's very hot here.
It's very hot.
It's not very cold outside.
So we have the fire mostly forthe atmosphere, not really for
(01:27):
the temperature.
It's true.
It was 20 degrees outside today.
But also to use some of the woodto regenerate the forest.
It was easier to do a talk atthe fire compared to a walk in
the forest around the home ofthe pioneers of our time.
And having a check-inconversation was March 23 that
(01:49):
we were here.
We're now recording in November25, so that's two and a half
years.
And a lot of things are movingnot only through the forest.
We saw a fox literally 10minutes ago outside the house
trying to probably eat the foodof the dogs.
Yesterday we hear the wolves.
Yesterday we heard the wolves,which weren't there three years
(02:10):
ago.
And I think it was one likewalking coming, and now they're
a pair.
SPEAKER_00 (02:14):
Yeah.
They settled in the valley.
SPEAKER_01 (02:16):
So there's uh a lot of life coming back.
There's still a lot of life.
We saw a lot of deer on thehikes in the past days.
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Skies are filled with filtures.
Over a hundred?
Over a hundred four species.
Two of the species are breedingalready.
And the other one you'reinviting with puppets.
SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
Yes.
Which sounds very wrong, butwe'll get to that.
Anyway, you hear the laughter ofSteph.
Last time when we recorded, Iremember many people commenting
on the amount of birds we had,because I think we recorded
around dawn, whatever it is,sunset.
And the birds were absolutelyplaying a concert.
So many people remember thatepisode of it.
And now we're gonna have the onewith the fire.
(02:55):
So welcome back, Steph.
Thank you.
Welcome to the podcast.
It's great to have you aftersuch a beautiful soil hangout.
We had some amazing peoplehanging out with us, many fires.
Not for the temperature.
Walks, long walks, good sauna,swims.
Yep.
Amazing weather helped.
It could be rainy and cold atthis time of year.
SPEAKER_00 (03:13):
At this time of the year, it's during the day, it's
beautiful, 20 degrees, and thenat night it gets colder.
So I like to experience theseasons.
SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
And not so much rain in this week, but I think in
October you had more, which iswhich is important because
that's one of the big topics inthis valley water.
SPEAKER_00 (03:30):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:31):
And the last few years were dry, right?
SPEAKER_00 (03:34):
Yeah.
This is the first year after Ithink six years of drought.
SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Wow.
And so just to paint a bit of apicture, of course, we'll link
the previous conversation andhow you ended up here in the
northeast of the Pyrenees on theSpanish side, but very close to
the French border.
We're in the Muga Valley, it's alot of forest, abandoned
charcoal forest, abandonedforest, that's why it burned so
well.
In need of regeneration, and youlanded here after a long walk
(04:02):
and started listening and thenbuilding and inviting people.
And so I would love to see andhear how that, apart from the
wolves being back, but howthat's been going.
Because you said very famouslylast time you're ahead of
schedule.
SPEAKER_00 (04:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:17):
Is that still the case?
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (04:19):
Has the schedule also evolved, or what's what do
you sense?
SPEAKER_00 (04:23):
Actually, last year we made our new strategy plan
for the coming three years, andthis year we have to make our
new strategy plan.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Because it's going so fast.
Yeah.
Wow.
And what is that?
Or what do you feel?
Right moment, like timing isalways everything in any
venture.
SPEAKER_00 (04:41):
I think that the time invested in listening and
observing what's actuallyhappening here, and then
identifying that the themes andthe interests that we have in
common in the differentcommunities is starting to pay
out.
So we've been investing a lot oftime and effort and also
resources in building trust andrelationships between people and
(05:04):
identifying what are really thehopes and the wishes, but also
the fears of people.
And so it turned out to bewater, security, fire safety,
work and housing, and then trustin society as the main themes
that people are concerned aboutor interested in.
Now the running GEC and ourteam, this we go with the speed
(05:26):
of trust.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
Because it's one of the big issues and challenges.
Not very common, even betweenvillages that are super close to
each other, share a lot ofthings, except maybe one or two
cultural differences.
SPEAKER_00 (05:47):
Never talked to each other.
For years we were the first onesbringing people together.
Yeah, so that's that's trulyspecial.
But it uh in practice it reallyworks out.
SPEAKER_01 (05:59):
Which means people pick up the phone when they need
something, they go to anothervillage.
Is it also trust with, let'ssay, the institutions?
Both local government, regional?
SPEAKER_00 (06:11):
Yeah, I think it builds up.
Yesterday there was a hunterhere, and he said he got a phone
call from Taradas, which is twovillages upstream the muga.
And he was really surprised thatfrom Teradas they called to a
hunter in Albanya to see how isthis and this in Albania, and
they asked a specific question.
And he said that this is becauseof the festival, because now the
(06:33):
festival is like growing into afestival of three villages:
Albania, San Lorenzo, andTerralas.
And people start to speak witheach other and start relating to
each other, that's reallybeautiful to see.
And from the festival, alsopeople start to express
themselves, and there was the,for instance, an example, the
need to install septic tanks intheir villages.
(06:56):
And so, like that coming fromthe community itself, interested
the state government, so theystarted to become more and more
engaged on this topic, but onseveral topics.
And so that facilitation of therelationship between the
neighbors, basically ourneighbors, the different
villages, the governments, themayors, and then up to the
(07:19):
different departments in thestate government is really
valuable.
And the relationship with thestate secretary, the minister,
but also with local researchinstitutes became much, much,
much stronger.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
Also, because a big piece of the story here is the
disconnect between, let's say,the seaside, which is the huge
tourism industry of the CostaBrava Nord, and the mountain,
and the mountains, because itleads all the way to Andorra,
basically, and beyond thatdisconnect of water to begin
with, but also other like waterquality and quantity, obviously.
(07:55):
Do you see, let's say, thetourism industry slowly turning
around and not only looking atthe sea, but also sometimes
looking at the mountain andstarting to at least engage,
maybe also invest in where theirwater comes from and the stress
that is there, because theseyears of drought put a lot of
stress on the agriculture piece,and then finally also on the
(08:15):
tourism piece, of course.
SPEAKER_00 (08:16):
Because people want to shower, they want their
swimming pools, and that becamedifficult.
During those years of drought,there was a state of emergency
where people could not filltheir swimming pools, couldn't
wash their cars, crops hadfailed.
So it was right in the face ofpeople.
And now is that a bit differentin this year of quite a bit of
rain.
(08:37):
I think people forget easily,but I think there's a change in
mindset that has been reached.
Where before, when we started,there was an ultimate disconnect
between the source area and thesea area.
Where you see now also throughthe documentary that has been
made, the media that we havebeen reaching out, that people
sort of become aware where theirwater is coming from.
(08:59):
And even the tourism industry isnow willing to buy climate
credits, the nature credit thatwe have developed, to actually
maintain and work in the forestupstream.
So that's, I think, it's a hugeachievement.
SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Because what are those credits and how do they
work?
SPEAKER_00 (09:13):
We call it a climate credit here, but basically it
has the same characteristic as anature credit, as we know it in
Europe.
It looks at one hectare offorest with four indicators like
carbon, water, biodiversity, andfire safety.
And the credit is cost-basedinstead of a normal carbon
market mechanism.
This is a cost-based credit.
If you look at what is the costto actually improve this hectare
(09:37):
of forest in such a way thatthose four criteria are actually
increasing in value.
The cost here is 4,000 euros perhectare to do the work.
But if you look for more in thesouth of Spain, south of
Catalonia, where also pilotshave been executed, the cost of
credit can be 3,000 euros.
Per year or one time?
It's one time for 15 years.
(09:58):
So there's the it's apublic-private partnership that
we created with the government.
The state government is actuallycertifying the hectare of forest
before the works, then we sellthe credit, then we do the
works, and they come again andthey certify the works after,
and then they monitor for 15years.
So it's place-based, cost-based,climate credit with an holistic
(10:21):
view.
We actually connect it to ourlandscape plan to see, okay,
where can we actually designatezones that need this
improvement, of course, ourecological hotspots or fire
prevention, or this is ourstrategic water capture spots.
Yeah, because one hectare, ofcourse, doesn't have a huge
impact.
SPEAKER_01 (10:37):
You need it connected or concentrated to
start influencing water flow.
SPEAKER_00 (10:43):
Yeah, so we sold out our first pilot this year, it
was 58 hectares, and we're soldnow almost 70 hectares more for
the next step where we're goingto scale up.
And our ambition is to sell athousand credits in the coming
couple years to actually pavethe road for the bigger scale-up
where we need to work 10,000hectares of forest.
SPEAKER_01 (11:05):
And the work does it depend on the different.
Do you do tests there as well?
Because of course it need to becertified.
Like, what does the work intakejust for people to imagine the
forest here?
There's a great shortdocumentary as well.
I think it's about 10 minutes onYouTube to see.
Of course, there's the MugaValley documentary, and which is
about 30 minutes.
(11:25):
So if you want to some visuals,you can find it.
But just for people that arecurrently running somewhere,
walking, cooking, etc., what'sthe forest look like and what
does the forest look like afterthe works?
SPEAKER_00 (11:35):
So if you have to imagine the watershed, 100,000
hectares, of its almost 50,000hectares, is dense, but a dense
forest where you oak forestcombined with pine trees that
you basically cannot enterbecause of the density.
This will this is actuallycausing a lot of problems
ecologically wise, but alsowater security-wise and fire
(11:59):
safety-wise, because of course,such a dense forest that is
basically in a cycle of gettingdrier and drier because of the
structure of the forest isvulnerable for fires, big fires.
And it's also depleting thesoil, so the soil cannot capture
the water anymore.
So that's why we're looking atimproving the forest and helping
(12:19):
it to bring helping the forestto become a diverse mosaic
forest again.
So before you see a super denseforest where that's basically
inaccessible, and then after theworks, you can find basically
three types of forest density.
That's a lot of work.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Like you're going with a lot of people chopping
down, mulching, reducing, etc.
How much it's the cost of 4k perhectare?
And then what happens after?
Is there maintenance or what'sneeded to keep the forest in
that state, or what's an idealnext state of the afternoon?
SPEAKER_00 (12:57):
The ideal next state is what we are figuring out.
Like the most logical would be acattle.
Cow is like you have here thealbera, which is a native cow
that is in the threatened byextinction.
So that's a cow that is actuallyadopted to this kind of mountain
and climate.
Goats, but because of the almostextinction of the profession of
(13:18):
the shepherd.
But also we look at rewildingstrategies where you have wild
grazers basically being managedby also a shepherd, but on a
very less intense way.
SPEAKER_01 (13:35):
Because you need a large ruminant back into this.
You have a lot of wild boar, alot of deer, but no larger
ruminant basically that keepsthe forest intact.
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
No.
Actually, the wild boar is a bigproblem for this kind of forest.
It's an omnivore.
It eats everything, so includingyoung plants, but also young
animals.
So biodiversity is likedecreasing while this population
is growing very fast.
They reproduce like sometimesfour times a year.
So while having this abandonedforest becoming denser and
(14:07):
denser, drier and drier.
Underneath the only animal thatcan live there is basically the
wild boar and a deer.
And they actually deplete theforest even further.
And so you get a green desert.
How big is the problem?
I would not know the numbers inthe millions of wild boars.
No, the thousands, thousands.
(14:30):
Here in this area.
SPEAKER_01 (14:32):
And then by by having it more as a mosaic
forest, their natural or theirfavorite habitat gets reduced
and they might or move or gethunted.
SPEAKER_00 (14:41):
Yeah, and predators are coming naturally coming
back.
So we have now the wolf is back,the wild cat is back, but also
different types of isles arecoming back, the villages, of
course, but the golden eagle.
We're waiting for the lynx tocome back.
SPEAKER_01 (14:57):
And so when waiting is in you're putting it actively
out there, or you're waiting forit to naturally.
SPEAKER_00 (15:04):
We're creating the habitat for the lynx.
So we're opening up.
Oh no, the lynx actually needsrabbits and actually not opening
up the forest, it's a forestanimal.
But we're creating habitat forthe lynx.
Yeah, and if those animals comeback, you will see that the
natural pattern of moving willcome back also, but with those
and with the wild boar and thedeer, and they will start
migrating again, or like I said,moving faster over the different
(15:28):
areas.
SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
On the food side, you said last time that was
going slower than you werehoping on the agriculture side
because you discovered a lot ofthis wildlife loves a market
garden, and the cows prefer thelocal football pitch compared to
the forest.
Yeah.
How is the food side, like theagriculture side going?
SPEAKER_00 (16:23):
Actually, with the new love in my life, the project
grew towards the sea in Palamos.
That's why we now speak aboutfrom the source to the sea and
the project.
And so most of the agriculturehas moved towards the sea area.
Which has less pressure, moreevents.
Also.
So there we have now the marketgarden, three hectares, we have
(16:45):
wine fields, we have olivegardens, we have sheep making
our own milk and all kinds ofproducts with the milk.
Here still we have the chicken.
And the moment we are we justbought a new property where we
hope to invite a farmer to comeback and work whatever this
person wants to work with, butwe hope with goats or like
(17:07):
animals to bring back animals inthis area, maybe rosemary.
SPEAKER_01 (17:13):
Who knows?
Because herbs and of course thestuff that gets eaten less by
our wildlife friends isinteresting.
Essential oils is then a usualquote unquote suspect.
Has it been anything you lookedinto in terms of forest products
or except for a lot of wood thatwe're listening to?
But what can the forest even intransition quote unquote produce
(17:34):
that could be of value, or hasthat been tricky?
SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
There's some obvious products, which is the truffle.
So we have a lot of wild trufflehere, and it means you could
also like create a you knowtruffle plantation.
So that's one lot of rootproducts.
So potatoes from the mountainsare popular.
Olive is a good product here.
The olive tool and olive foodconsumption.
And of course, meat and milk.
(18:01):
Those are the most obvious pigsthat are being fed with the
acorns, acorns, those kind ofthings.
SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
And on the finance piece, you've done a lot of work
as well on the governance,because basically what you're
trying to do, and I think that'spretty unique in the world, is
how to manage almost a fullwatershed.
Of course, without owning it,how do you influence such a
massive 100,000 hectares, whichmost people can't even phantom
(18:27):
how big that is, and how do youregenerate that whole thing
without, I don't know, raising agazillion dollars and buy
everything.
Because it's great if you'redoing your 400 hectares, even
your 800 hectares, whatever thenumber is, but if around you the
rest is still degrading and thefire comes, yeah, nothing will
stop that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:44):
That's interesting because I think two and a half
years ago our main vision waswe're gonna regenerate the Mula
Valley and the watershed.
We were piloting many ideas bythat time, like the cows and the
rosemary, of course, tourism,many things.
And I think our narrative hasrefined, but also our strategy
(19:06):
has become much more clear.
Where, of course, the mainobjective is to help the rivers,
the forests, and the soys tobecome healthy again.
I think that's one.
And we knew from the beginningthat the social fabric, creating
this social fabric, this trustand relationship between the
people would be vital to foractually doing our work.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
How did you discover that by the way?
Like how that's such anabsolutely fundamental piece to
recreate connections, to rebuildtrust.
SPEAKER_00 (19:41):
I think my history with NVU, working in Africa and
India, and Southeast Asia, thatwas one of the main issues.
Not having trust, it's justfinding ways how to create
trust.
When I first came here, what Isaw is that the people didn't
speak like there was a lot ofgossip between people, two
villages, but they never visitedeach other.
(20:01):
So through the pizza parties Iorganized was basically the
people got to know each other.
But the trust was so low that tothe level that people were
stealing from each other.
There's a funeral in the nextvillage, and during the funeral,
like the house was being robbed.
And those kind of examples arenot day-to-day but common.
And also with my conversationswith the politicians who were
(20:23):
fearing the moment of chaos.
Because if there's low trust insociety, like chaos is easy to
emerge.
There were different signs thatI thought that should be one of
the topics to work with,especially a foreigner coming
here.
You are like three pointsbehind.
SPEAKER_01 (20:43):
Of course.
And so how did you because inthe documentary, and also in
general, I think when people askquestions, you're very clear on
it's not you doing the work,it's not you running the
foundation, and it's a verydeliberate strategy as a
foreigner in a valley that youdon't have any roots of.
SPEAKER_00 (21:05):
I don't have any roots.
The valley is traumatized bycivil war and the dictatorship.
There's something that's reallyalive here.
Yeah, I made a clear decisionthat first we have a foundation
and the business, and I feel I'mmore of a value in the business
the day to day, and I can bemore of inspiration and coach
(21:28):
for the foundation team.
Also, to let highly qualifiedpeople leading the foundation
and sitting in the board of thefoundation is giving a big sign
of trust from me to them, butalso I think they're much more I
say equipped to do the work.
(21:49):
They talk to the people of thesame nationality, same culture,
same language.
SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
Yeah, but it's often not an easy step to not just
stay in the middle of theattention, and everything has to
go through the founder.
It's not an easy transition formany people, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (22:09):
I learned a lot at NVU.
Previous experience.
And also, I think it has to dowith the urgency and the urgency
can make you want to go faster.
I see what needs to happen inthis forest.
Let's go and in this valley.
My former mentors, I've got twoquotes from them.
One is the grass won't growfaster when you start pulling
it.
So that's one.
(22:30):
Many farmers will remember thatquote.
unknown (22:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
And it's so true.
The other one, if you want to gofast, you go alone.
And if you want to far, you gotogether.
And if the work that we have todo here has never been done
before, it's so big you cannever do it alone.
So you have to go together, andthose processes need their time.
So people are ready when they'reready.
(22:53):
And I felt here very welcome.
I felt there's an energy andthere's a very active community
that want to do things together.
And I think I helped them withnew perspectives.
And so one on one is three.
And I think that's why it workedso really well.
And one of the prerequisites forgetting there was I felt away
from the beginning, I should notgo into the foundation.
(23:16):
That will speed up andaccelerate things if I won't.
I can be the entrepreneursupporting the foundation with
capital, with capacity, withnetwork, with bringing funders
to the foundation and expertise.
This is how it went, and this ishow it's going, and it works
really well.
Yeah.
But going back to the story andfiguring out our strategy,
(23:37):
helping the forests, the rivers,and the soils to become healthy
again, building this strongsocial fabric first to actually
start working then next onbringing work and life back to
the valley, to the watershed.
And there we focus on basicallyfinance.
So, how can we build a financialvehicle or framework that's
(24:00):
actually going to fund thisregeneration and this
regenerative economy, thesenature-based solutions, that
actually will accelerate theregeneration of the valley?
So think of a biochar factory ora core processing plant or
nature tourism.
Those kinds of economicactivities will bring work back
(24:20):
to the valley.
And so we are looking actuallyhow can we lay the groundwork
for this larger bioregionalinvestment vehicle over the
coming years?
Because we need hundreds ofmillions actually to regenerate
this watershed.
80% of Catalonia has a forestsurface.
And so you talk a lot of money.
But before we get there, wethink we need transition finance
(24:41):
instruments, financialinstruments like the credits,
like a water fund, like perhapsother things that we can come up
with.
Then both slowly we'll evolve inthis bioregional financial
vehicle.
And the third thing wediscovered that we already
started doing from thebeginning, coming from this
trust and relationship, is likewhat's actually unique perhaps
(25:02):
in Catalonia is the governmentsaid, yes, we cannot do it
alone.
We need the private sector andwe need the civil society and
science to actually do ittogether.
And I think that attitudeactually accelerated a lot of
our work as well.
Because now we're working to abi-regional governance system.
So like having the watershed asa basically a unit of
(25:25):
governance, which then will bethe foundation for society and
the economy and ecology.
And again, we thought instead ofproposing this bi-regional
governance model, we said, no,we will start small with smaller
examples so people startunderstanding what we're talking
about, and then in the endcombine things.
(25:46):
And so the first thing westarted with is the fire
prevention plan.
We figured out what is actuallyhappening on the aspect of fire
safety, and we found out nothingwas happening.
And so we created this fireprevention plan.
The past three years we've beenworking on it, and by the end of
this year, we actually will signoff the plan to actually govern
40,000 hectares of a forest in away that it becomes fire safe,
(26:10):
water secure, and brings backbiodiversity.
SPEAKER_01 (26:13):
And is that very close to the interventions
you're doing on those hectaresconnected to the credits?
SPEAKER_00 (26:19):
Exactly.
And so having such a plan, youcan then say, okay, what are the
hectares?
So 2,600 hectares of basically afire break, but then six and a
half thousand hectares aroundthose fire breaks, we actually
need to improve the forest andwe can work on the biodiversity
and the water situation.
And by making those forests lessdense, also the fire intensity
(26:42):
will be starting to lower downwhen like when they hit a fire
break.
What we did is basically thefirst public-private governance
model here around fire, and wemade it because we had a seat on
the table, we could ask if itcould be a holistic plan.
So not only for fire, we're alsousing our fire as a preventative
(27:04):
measure, but we also look reallyat biodiversity hotspots and we
studied the water situation in adifferent area.
SPEAKER_01 (27:11):
How many people are in the foundation?
SPEAKER_00 (27:13):
So we have now a core team of eight people in the
foundation, and of course, theyare surrounded by experts,
freelance experts, like forestryexperts or like agriculture
region experts, water experts.
And in the company in the lowseason, we have 60 people in the
high season, 80 people.
And the company has evolved intobusiness activities,
(27:34):
hospitality, the home ofpioneers, and then Brugarol,
which is more agritourismconcept.
And farming, of course.
And then we have real estate andproperty management added to the
equation because we saw if youwant to bring back work and life
and start investing in businesshere, people need to live and
(27:55):
need to have a socialinfrastructure.
And it was like an absentactually thing.
So we thought, okay, we saw theopportunity, start building
houses.
And from building houses, we sawthe opportunity for the
replication.
So some things were starting towork.
How can we facilitate otherlandscapes in that way?
And we thought instead of goingout to the world, why don't we
(28:16):
invite people to the MugaValley?
So that's why we started nowbuilding physical infrastructure
for a campus to actuallyfacilitate replication and
education and attract scientiststo do the monitoring of the work
we're doing here, addingtechnology.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
Have you come across other places where this kind of
work is happening at this scale?
Or this intensity as well?
Of course, there are peopleworking on landscape scale
regeneration and many parts ofthe world, friends of common
land, and a thousand landscapes,etc.
But I haven't seen yet at this,probably that it's happening
somewhere, but this kind ofspeed and this kind of holistic
(28:57):
watershed, really talking aboutokay, from the source to the
sea, like attempt to make animpact there literally on rain,
water, etc.
Are people coming here to seethat happening, or is it still
like a well-hidden?
SPEAKER_00 (29:13):
No, I think in many places things are happening.
Today I was talking to alandscape in Scotland.
There are various landscapes inSpain, different levels actually
of maturity.
I think the big thing is thatthe level of maturity and the
level of holistic working.
I think there are not many thatwork as holistic as we do, but
(29:36):
there are many others that aremuch better, for instance, in
agriculture and region egg, orin water itself, or in finance.
But I think because we try tocombine the different elements
and we learn a lot from others,so it's a big adventure, I must
say.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
And I think since last time we talked as well,
specifically the topic of water,we've seen almost exactly a year
ago.
Devastating floods in Valencia,of course, many other places in
general, floods, drought, thatcycle has been, especially
around the Mediterranean, butmany other places, going quite
bananas, let's say.
(30:15):
And the attention is slowlystarting to pick up.
But then what follows or whatneeds to follow are
entrepreneurial people that stepin and say, okay, how do we put
the puzzle pieces in a landscapetogether to actually at scale
large enough to be able toinfluence a river and or rain
patterns, etc.
Because it's amazing on 400hectares, it's amazing on 800,
(30:36):
but that's not going to beenough.
How has been that conversationaround that kind of level of
(30:57):
scale and almost sciencefiction?
Can you actually influence ariver?
Can you actually influence rainpatterns?
I feel sometimes it's almost alack of imagination that we can
do that, even though we know wecan do it negatively, so why not
positively?
How do you deal with that veryday-to-day?
Okay, we need to do this hectareof forest versus this hectare of
forest, and we need the rabbitsback, et cetera, et cetera.
(31:19):
But actually, what we're tryingto do is here stabilizing
climate and bringing back summerrains that used to be here not
so long ago.
SPEAKER_00 (31:28):
In essence, we are bioengineering a microclimate,
and that's what we're doing.
SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
But we say that to some people and funders as well.
SPEAKER_00 (31:37):
Yeah, yeah.
This forest here, like not onlythis forest shed, but all the
watersheds behind here, likeit's all controlled by men for
centuries.
This forest is nothing isnatural.
And so why can't we help it tobecome healthy again as humans
as well?
So that's what I believe andthat what we're going for.
SPEAKER_01 (31:58):
It's funny because people see this forest and they
see a lot of trees.
And I said it last time as well.
If you don't have the intimateforest knowledge, you see a very
dense forest meeting.
Yeah, it's a very dense forest.
Then you notice there's not alot of life on the ground,
actually, nothing growing.
Then you start seeing, okay,actually, I cannot even walk
through, let alone look through,because a lot of the paths here
(32:18):
you would love to see the otherridge, and everything is more or
less two and a half, threemeters high, all the same
height.
It takes a bit of looking at andunderstanding like actually,
this is a forest that'sabsolutely not healthy and
suffering.
But also for funders that comehere or for investors, etc.,
it's not that you see that youthink, oh, yeah, a lot of green,
looks good.
SPEAKER_00 (32:35):
Yeah, exactly.
No, that's why also I live herebecause it is beautiful and it
looks good, but it is not.
The approach that we take isgoing step by step in the sense
of we did a pilot of a couplehundred hectares that's working,
that convinced people, thenwe're going into a pilot that's
a bit bigger.
(32:56):
The end game for the realscale-up is to just convince
governments that it's worthwhileto spend tax money on this
approach of managing andgoverning a watershed.
And so we think that proof isaround between the five and the
ten thousand hectares where wecan show effects on water, on
(33:18):
biodiversity, carbon, and firesafety.
We are starting now aconversation with the European
Investment Fund, the EuropeanInvestment Bank.
We're getting coaching from areally large public-private fund
in the Netherlands that helps usto structure and to facilitate
or coach us.
Like, how do you talk with thegovernment?
How do you bring the biginstitutional funders in?
And then those are two parallelpaths.
(33:40):
So making the case, building thevalue chain for regenerative
forestry, so regeneration, onthe one hand, bringing in
science through the campus thatactually can monitor the work
that we are doing and createpolicy papers, opinion papers,
and those kind of things.
Creating an educational programfor other landscapes that want
to come and learn, and come andshare, also, on the other hand,
(34:02):
and then working towards thatmoment that we say, okay, now we
have political will, there'sscientific proof, there is
institutional interest, and thenwe can do a first pilot, perhaps
100-200 million euros to work ona larger scale here in the
watershed, and perhaps twowatersheds.
(34:23):
And with that comes then a newtype of governance model, where
we see okay, what is thelife-supporting ecosystem that
we actually have to govern tolay the ground for the new
economy and society that we wantto, the world that we want to
live in, basically.
And that's not a geopoliticalway of looking or economic way
of looking.
It's like the water, like here'sthe canyou, that's France.
(34:45):
Actually, it's a big mountain ofalmost 3,000 meters.
It's guiding the clouds into thevalley, it's bringing water from
this high snow peak into theMuga Valley.
It's much more logical to createthis supranational governance
model than how we have designedit now and build an economy on
that.
(35:06):
I know it's very far-fetched,and perhaps I will never see it,
but I think that's the mostlogical way of designing our
future societies and economiesaround those life-supporting
ecosystems.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
Where water is such a much more logical connector
than carbon is or or anythingelse.
Because yeah, we it fallssomewhere.
We can trigger it, which isinteresting.
A lot of research shows we caninfluence it.
SPEAKER_00 (35:31):
Water is the manifestation of the climate
crisis we have.
Especially in the Mediterranean,what do you see?
Forest fires and floods.
Where do they come from?
Dysfunctional watersheds.
Because the sponge why theforest is drying out and turns
into fire.
And of course, the soil cannothold the water anymore, because
in the watershed, 90% of thewater is being captured in the
(35:53):
sponge that is upstream in thesoil, and then releases the
water throughout the year intothe river systems and the
atmosphere.
That topsoil is gone.
And those you get floods.
Understanding that is actuallythe basis of our economy, it's
coming more and more.
SPEAKER_01 (36:12):
Do you see that landing as well in those
conversations with biggerinstitutional investors,
players, insurance, re-insurancecompanies, and government as
well that basically soil waterholding capacity is the key, one
of the key indicators to see ifyou have a risk of flood,
basically?
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
I think there's more and more air.
The situation becomes so urgentand important.
There's a need for solutions.
So people are willing to listenand willing to try.
I think the majority of ourdecision makers is still
technocratic oriented.
And so it's much easier to builda desalination plant than take
care of a watershed.
(36:50):
Which is much cheaper, actually,to take care of a watershed than
build a desalination plant.
This is what's happening here,huh?
So they just invested half abillion euros in this
desalination plants.
And the whole Spain, I think, isthree billion.
That's serious money.
Here with 200 million, we canrestore this watershed.
SPEAKER_01 (37:09):
And do you have any indication then of how much
extra higher quality cleanerwater you can quote unquote
produce?
SPEAKER_00 (37:17):
That's already scientifically proven.
That 66% of the water we willlose, actually we can revive.
The water you will lose becauseof climate, because of climate
and because of I say thatdysfunctional soil management.
SPEAKER_01 (37:32):
And forest management.
And then the agriculture piece,because this first flows to
quite an active agricultureregion before it gets to the
coast.
How has been your interactionthere?
SPEAKER_00 (37:42):
We purposely started with the forest because that's
where the sponge is, and it'salso more easy to address in the
beginning.
Now we're actually goingdownstream.
First, we see if you godownstream, you see the
extensive agriculture, animalfeed or charts.
And then in the delta, let's saylike that, there's the intensive
(38:06):
agriculture using actually 70%of the water of the lake of the
Muga.
7-0, that's what.
Yeah.
We approach it in two ways.
We are slowly starting buildingthe coalition of region experts,
soil experts from also theunions, farmers, research
institutes that are actuallylooking at the water situation.
(38:30):
We're not there yet, because Ithink there's still a lot of
work to do in basicallyregenerative forestry, but also
the natural protected areas thatwe are managing.
We're managing now 5,000hectares of natural protected
areas.
We are managing 3,000 hectaresof forests for our neighbors.
We meaning the company.
The foundation.
So in total, we have 8,000hectares under management at the
(38:51):
moment, and we are driving thegovernance of more than 40,000
hectares.
So that's a lot of work.
Now we have to execute there.
So building the value chain andthe collision of forestry is our
priority at the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (39:06):
To increase the quantity of water before you
work on, let's say, the decreaseof the usage with the intensive
agriculture part.
SPEAKER_00 (39:14):
But parallel, now we we work with an organization
called ICRA, which is thegovernmental research institute
on water.
And they actually do an analysison the water use in the
intensive agriculture sector.
It's shocking to see, actually.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
So we have to talk less about the hotels and
campings on the coast, but a bitmore about the 30%, but 70%
probably more money in thecoastal.
SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
Exactly.
I think it's 23% of the GDP inCatalunya or in this area coming
from hospitality.
Is there in the agriculturepiece to connect?
I think the sector is under alot of stress.
They lost so much crops in thepast four years, five years.
(40:14):
And demanding subsidies and moresupport because they cannot cope
anymore.
And if you look at a lot of thefields, you see a lot of corn,
which causes a water-intenseproduct.
But it's an interesting sectorto look at.
And as I said, we're justtouching it now, and feeling and
(40:35):
observing again.
Actually, it's a new exercise ofemergence to observe, to listen,
what's happening, what are thereal worries, what are the
triggers of change.
Because it's very fundamentallydifferent than the forest.
Also, the political interest andeconomic interest are much
higher.
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
Fire is probably less of an issue.
But water and work are massiveones.
And so in a couple of years,what do you envision you and you
meaning the larger you with theteam have achieved?
And then maybe five years out aswell.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
So what I see emerging is working in layers.
So you look at the watershedwith a layered perspective.
So you look at forest and fire,you look at water, biodiversity,
agriculture, and then economy,of course, and trust level
society.
And we're mapping that, it'ssuper interesting.
So that kind of evolve, likedeveloping that kind of way of
(41:33):
working and approach and tool asa sort of blueprint to basically
replicate into other landscapes.
That's my big hope.
That this campus will actuallyevolve in something a sort of a
lighthouse.
And that we are able to buildthis whatever it's called,
bioregional financial vehicle.
I call it now because I don'tknow what it actually will
(41:55):
entail.
In combination with this newgovernance model for a
bioregion, like a water, like adifferent watersheds.
I think that would be amazing.
I think we don't know yet whatis waiting for us because for
now we've always been the teddybear and very innocent, and we
have a lot of factor.
But I think now we're touching,we're going to touch the bigger
(42:16):
interest in society, and let'ssee how that's if there's
political will to do that.
And if we can make itapolitical, that's actually our
thinking now.
How can we make this apolitical?
And one of the ways that wethink it could work is we're
tapping into the securitypolicy, security economics of
Europe.
Because if you look at theclimate projections, it doesn't
(42:39):
look good.
Everybody is shit scared forsocial unrest because of the
lack of food and water we willhave and the fires that will
come.
So by bringing our projects andsay, okay, we could be best
practice for Europe to see howwe can create security by
bioengineering a microclimate ina global changing climate.
(43:01):
Where we think if we can provethat we can keep like at least
three to four degrees less than,for instance, in Madrid, because
in Madrid it's a projection ofeight degrees.
So it's like this becomesunlivable.
And so it becomes in theinterest of everybody, it
becomes a survival policy.
SPEAKER_01 (43:19):
Do you see that shift in the conversation going?
We see that sort of now inregen, food, and egg, going from
regenerative to resilience andfood security.
I don't think we've done a goodjob yet in really hammering down
that point of this is way morethan poison-free food production
(43:40):
or carbon in the soil.
This is nutrient security.
SPEAKER_02 (43:43):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
And have you seen that language change or the
narrative as well?
Absolutely.
Again, because I think waterspeaks.
And here people experience thatif there's no water, life stops.
That's I think an advantage thatwe have over agriculture.
Like you say, nutrients is notyet that people didn't
experience not having nutrientsin their soils.
(44:07):
Water is like something veryvisual in your face.
You experience it right.
It's like a direct feedbackloop.
(45:05):
So I think it's a very strongnarrative.
And people love water.
We are water.
People can really identify withit.
So I think that's that's anarrative we found that works.
And that we are uh thriving onat the moment.
SPEAKER_01 (45:20):
So even in changing, more extreme political climates,
you don't see water going away.
SPEAKER_00 (45:27):
Water is uh apolitical in that sense.
It's a basic necessity for life.
SPEAKER_01 (45:33):
Yeah, which is very interesting as a narrative.
Because in the climate movement,etc., we've always been carbon
emissions, etc., which became,especially in the last years,
absolutely a political theme andnot a good one.
Do you fear that water could gothe same route, or is it almost
impossible to make that apolitical?
SPEAKER_00 (45:55):
I won't see how they can make it political.
They can make it political andto exclude groups from water.
But I certainly hope not thatwill happen.
Because then the water is reallyfar away from where humanity
should be.
SPEAKER_01 (46:10):
From the Netherlands, etc., where you're
originally from, where water isa very different issue, even
though droughts now are becominga huge issue.
But usually the Netherlands, weare a country where water is
always there, probably a bit toomuch in some cases.
Does that the story of waterlands, because you're trying to
find investors, funders, etc.,from a place where water has
(46:32):
never been an issue to actuallyhear a place where water is an
issue and has been for the lastdecade?
SPEAKER_00 (46:39):
It's difficult to sell that narrative, let's say,
to large, like asset managers orpeople that are I think the
people in the Netherlands thatwork with water are shit scared.
The salination of the soilbecause of the changing water
levels is huge.
The fact that transport overrivers would not be possible
anymore in the coming not 10-20years in certain rivers, it's a
(47:04):
big problem.
And actually, the water qualityin the Netherlands, in the
natural water reservoirs, isdecreasing.
I think I heard it from anengineer.
They would not pass the Europeannorms at the moment.
So it's a bigger topic thanhydrogen.
Yeah, no, water quality is next.
SPEAKER_01 (47:22):
And you probably don't want to swim nor drink
from a lot of rivers, etc.
I don't know how foreverchemicals has hit a nerve a lot
more than water quality.
I think the story is not outyet.
We need a good Netflix document,or so somebody listening
interested in that.
I talk to, of course, quite afew investors and funders, and
(47:43):
we talk about water.
The first response, not always,is hi, irrigation is very
important.
I'm like, yeah.
But this is about water cycles,the small one, the big one,
landscape scale regeneration toattract water or to stabilize
water flows, water vapor thatcools the planet.
Like this is a whole different.
And there you like already inthe first two words, you
(48:04):
basically lost half of theaudience.
And so I'm very curious what arenarratives, what are pieces that
work and that land with not witheveryone, but at least with
people that are leaning in andinterested, to get, first of
all, the knowledge up to speedof where we are now in terms of
what we know and what we don'tknow.
And then that there's an actionalternative, like there is a way
(48:25):
of leaning in and doing stuff.
And there's a potential scale.
We don't know how much, like wedon't know what is the tipping
point in a watershed, but we canstart asking those questions to
large language models, to bigmodels, and not only language
models, but actually computepower to say, okay, where in a
landscape, how many hectares ofthe 50,000, 60,000 hectares is
it 20,000 meter effect or 10 or30?
(48:48):
That's quite a difference inplanning any money before you
see rivers influence, but alsobefore you see rain patterns,
basically.
And those kind of discussionsare coming way more than a
couple of years ago, but I stillI see them mostly infringes on
some substacks, which areinteresting, but not necessarily
in boardrooms.
SPEAKER_00 (49:08):
I think the water world is such an interesting
space, mythical, mystical,almost spiritual in what in a
sense.
We don't understand how itworks.
Does the water cycles from thesea to the source?
Like clouds, like you say, liketrees inviting the clouds to
rain.
SPEAKER_01 (49:23):
We had it here at the table when I said that, I
think, and somebody was like,What?
How does that work?
And the forest releases certainparticles, I don't remember the
name.
They trigger, attract, and makeit rain or not.
And so you could say that thetrees make the rain, or and I
think there were some jawsdropped.
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
Yeah, yeah, and humidity in the forest and
cooling down, like atmosphere,the underground natural
deposits, no water deposits.
It's it's like fantastic howthat that whole system works.
And then if you speak to a waterscientist, like how the clouds
move and create basically zonesof humidity, like hundreds of
(50:05):
kilometers of humid soil guidedby mountains, it's fascinating.
How if you cut a tree line, howthe how clouds cycles are
disturbed.
It's like super interesting.
And we haven't designed oursocieties like that.
SPEAKER_01 (50:25):
We used to do in in India there were the holy rain
gardens that you were verystrategically through the
landscape.
I don't remember which part ofIndia.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
We had it with avant of uh safesoil.
And they were absolutelyforbidden to cut.
Of course, they were using thereligion to make sure you didn't
because they knew that was wherethe rain was making its trip
(50:47):
inland to make sure inland itwould rain.
And you need to strategicallyplace large enough, not
enormous, I don't remember theexact size, but large enough to
be very well wooded, healthyforest to make sure the rain
would make its little jumps allthe way.
And so it's not, but of coursethat was and now isn't.
And so I think we'll besurprised how little is needed
(51:09):
to influence that, but howstrategic probably in a
landscape.
Which will be fascinating tofind out.
Yeah, we're on the journey.
And with that, I think it's agood moment to wrap up.
The fire is quiet as you canhear, temperature is still warm.
(51:30):
I want to thank you for yourhospitality, for the work you do
in this massive watershed.
But there are, I think, I don'tknow, a number out there.
5,000 other ones around theMediterranean.
We're the smallest.
The smaller watershed in theIberian Peninsula.
So you pick the right one tostay unknowingly.
I'm not sure if that makes iteasier or more difficult, but
(51:52):
it's definitely an interestingone with the tourism industry,
have heavy, intensiveagriculture and a huge
ex-charcoal forest, it's still,which creates a lot of
challenges, but also a lot ofyou can see when you visit the
plots the impact of reductionand just reducing the wood, the
number of trees and wood, andyou immediately the light hits
(52:14):
and life starts sprouting andanimals change, etc.
It's very fascinating to see tosee that.
And of course, the big animals,the very famous one, the
vultures, the wolf, etc., help,but the little rabbit also,
because otherwise you're notgonna get a lynx.
Yeah, exactly.
The turtle, the beaver, like theriver animals back as well.
SPEAKER_00 (52:36):
Yeah.
Do you have beavers yet?
Not yet, no.
But we've been doing some testsat river artificial beaver dams.
Just to see if it floods.
How it would work and what wouldyeah.
But the beaver is coming alsotowards this direction.
SPEAKER_01 (52:55):
Um it's interesting how these animals travel.
Who if you can imagine greatdistances, but a beaver is not
the best walker, I think, interms of let's walk a hundred
kilometers to get to the nextwatershed.
SPEAKER_00 (53:05):
But I have heard they've been helped by uh
particular Englishman.
Which won't be named.
SPEAKER_01 (53:12):
No.
But yeah, we know.
Anyway, shout out if you'relistening.
Yeah.
Which is an interesting group ofpeople, by the way.
But that's for a whole differentpodcast.
I love them.
The pot uh the beaver, thebeaver crew.
There's a fascinating book aboutbeavers, which I'm blanking on
the title, which I'll put in theshow notes.
It's yeah, it's the biggest,what is it?
(53:33):
Land engineers.
What would happen if they'reback here?
Would they be protected?
Because they were huntedeverywhere.
Would they be protected?
Would they be welcomed?
Would it be as scary as when theforest came?
SPEAKER_00 (53:43):
The otter was welcomed very much.
The beaver.
SPEAKER_01 (53:46):
The beaver makes dams, otter.
SPEAKER_00 (53:47):
And they live more upstream because there are no
people there.
So I think the first 20-23kilometers, I think they will be
living in peace.
Because people are in the firstthree villages here.
People are really nature lovers.
So that's I think is a bigadvantage to work here.
They really love their valleyand the forest here.
SPEAKER_01 (54:10):
But do they see beaver dams with the flooding
around, etc., as a an okay partof their valley?
As long as that's not affectingtheir house.
Doesn't affect their house,yeah.
That's usually there are ways tomanage that.
It would be fascinating to havethem have them back.
And yeah, looking forward tochecking again on the finance
piece, how to get the hundredsof millions.
SPEAKER_00 (54:32):
I'm super excited about that.
And also I'm super excited tosee how other people are so
super excited about it.
Because it's something someaningful if it works.
SPEAKER_01 (54:41):
We don't know if it's work, but if it works,
yeah, then we have a potentialsolution for other watersheds
that you don't have the luxuryof being able to reach a large
Dutch asset manager with yournetwork, obviously, you can be
that pioneer that maybe otherwatersheds, bigger ones, don't
necessarily have.
Thank you so much.
(55:02):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for listening to thisconversation.
It's the first ever we had onthe podcast a real fireside
chat.
Of course, we had some someothers in the past, but it was
always without a fire for goodreasons.
I think we had John Kemp atGroundswell, which was
incredibly warm, so a fire wouldhave been a bit out of
(55:24):
proportion there.
And let me know what you think.
I was really looking forward andreally enjoyed checking in with
Steph.
So much has happened since thelast time we spoke and we
recorded, and so much still, ofcourse, needs to happen.
But it's really interesting tosee how fast this work in a
landscape can go, and how fasttrust gets rebuilt, how suddenly
(55:49):
government programs becomeavailable if somebody puts
together, and not necessarilySteph, of course, the people of
the foundation, put together thepuzzle pieces.
Like so much needs to be done,but so much fuels that is
already going in a massivevalley, which is one of the
smallest watersheds in Spain,which raises a very interesting
question.
What can we learn here and applyelsewhere?
(56:10):
How do we look at protocols,lessons learned, steps they
said, they put, because ofcourse it's great if one
watershed gets restored,regenerated, etc.
But what about the others?
And we can only start reallydrawing down a lot of carbon,
really restore biodiversity, andincrease the small water cycle
(56:30):
if we do this at scale, whichmeans repeating, which means
other watersheds, etc.
So I'm very curious how thispublic-private partnership
spreads through Catalunya firstand then through the whole
Iberian Peninsula, and of coursearound the Mediterranean.
Like the Mediterranean is one ofthose focal points together, I
don't know, with the Amazon,with the Congo Basin, and some
other places where you justreally feel the need of
(56:54):
regeneration at scale very soonbecause the damage is already
happening, and I don't think therest of the world realizes how
important some of these hotspotsare, not only just for
biodiversity, etc., but reallybecause of weather patterns.
So we're gonna see, I think, alot of movements in this space,
and we are looking forward tokeep bringing them to you.
So thank you for listening andsee you at the next one.
(57:17):
Thank you for listening all theway to the end.
For show notes and linksdiscussed, check out our
website, investing inregenerative agriculture.com
slash posts.
If you like this episode, whynot share it with a friend?
And get in touch with us onsocial media, our website, or
via the Spotify app and tell uswhat you like most.
And give us a rating on ApplePodcasts or Spotify or your
podcast player.
That really, really helps us.
(57:38):
Thanks again and see you nexttime.
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