November 27, 2024 • 29 mins
On today's episode, Chris and Spence put down their pints of Guinness to delve into the myths and legends that surround Ireland's Patron Saint : Saint Patrick. Listen now to hear tales of serpents and kidnappings, and hear how Ireland's most iconic figure is perhaps not even Irish at all !
The Irish Gothic Podcast explores the origins of Irish Folk tales. myths and legends in all their dark, fantastical glory and how these vivid yarns continue to resonate across the world to this very day.
Join Hosts Chris Patterson and Spence Wright as they fuse their love for all thing's horror with a wellspring of Irish lore.
From the terrifying figure of the Dullahan to the origins of Halloween itself, if it’s a yarn you’re after, pull up a chair and let ‘Irish Gothic’ fill your ears.
Hosts: Chris Patterson & Spence Wright
Producer: Rebecca Alcorn
Production Company: Causeway Pictures
Bibliography:
Explore the sites of Patrick's life in Ireland here! -
https://www.visitmournemountains.co.uk/explore/saint-patricks-story
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Website: https://irishgothicpod.buzzsprout.com
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Checkout our other podcast - Hostage to the Devil, real life stories of exorcism and possession. Wherever you get your podcasts.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
I know all the folks round thesearts and parts.
Can't say I know you.
Leastways.
Not yet.
But I dare say I know whatyou'll be wanting.
Some of the crack, maybe.
How we yarn with your sup, isit?
(00:40):
No harm in that.
Come on over.
Warm yourself, hmm?
I'll warn you though.
If it's the old Begara andBlarney shenanigans you're
after, you'll not hear them fromme.
Well, if such, like, pleasesyou, you sit on.
(01:00):
I'll fill your ears.
And see what story is meant foryou.
On this dark old night.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (01:26):
So how are you this evening Spence?
chris-patterson_4_11-20- (01:27):
you're going to have to forgive me
tonight, Bence.
I've got the dog running aboutthe house, so if you hear any
barking or sniffing or shaking,it'll be the dog, not me I'm
good, Chris.
There was almost one less, shihtzu crossed with a poodle,
shoodle dog in the world thisweek.
my new dog, you know, all aboutthe rocket.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (01:46):
He is a rocket
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (01:48):
he ate my reading glasses.
And I have been fumbling aroundlike Mr.
McCoo for the better part ofthis week, mate.
other than that, yeah, we've hadquite a few seasons this
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (01:57):
Oh we have eh?
The
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (01:58):
I think we saw our first drop of
snow.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-20 (01:59):
Have you got the snow up round you?
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (02:01):
wee touch of it today, mate, yeah, a
wee touch.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2 (02:03):
We're too wet down here.
spence_3_11-20-2024_19074 (02:04):
These city slickers, you see.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-20 (02:06):
City slickers.
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (02:07):
ha, ha, ha,
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024_ (02:07):
I was just looking through the
news there just to delve alittle bit into true crime,
which I know is a passion for usboth as well.
they reopened the case of themissing German hitchhiker from
22 years ago.
spence_3_11-20-2024_1 (02:21):
goodness, yes, Inga Maria Houser, yeah.
chris-patterson_3_11-20- (02:24):
Yeah., they normally reopen cases when
they have something to reopen,don't they?
Yeah.
spence_3_11-20-2024_1907 (02:28):
that's a fairly, infamous and emotive
case here in Northern Ireland,but Inga, was a free spirit, a
German, backpacker who travelledin Northern Ireland, back in,
1988 and she basicallydisappeared after getting off
the Lorne ferry on the coast.
She travelled over fromScotland, disappeared and was
found two weeks later.
She's only 18 years old in aremote part of Ballypatrick
(02:51):
Forest out in Ballycastle,County Antrim.
as you say Chris, no one's beenconvicted of her killing, so
that suggests something stirringout there.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-20 (03:01):
Yeah it's definitely interesting when
these things come back up.
I think when the things backthrough DNA, like the Golden
State Killer and people likethat, who have been taken more
from familiar DNA, family DNA,than their own personal DNA but
it's definitely an interestingcase always worth having an eye
on and maybe if something doescome up we'll mention it again
(03:21):
further down the line ifsomething happens.
spence_3_11-20-2024 (03:23):
Absolutely, that's one to keep an eye
chris-patterson_3_11-20-202 (03:25):
But tonight, right back to the big
man himself.
He's so big he has his own day.
So everyone out there, pints andput your leprechaun hat on
because tonight we're going todo St.
Patrick So, let's start off withthe basics.
(03:51):
St.
Patrick was a patron saint ofIreland and was born in Britain
around 385 AD to a wealthyRomanised family.
I assume that means he was aRoman, then, Spence?
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:02):
As with all these figures, we know
of them and what is actuallywritten down and provable is
very different, you know, butyeah, Romanized family living in
Britain, he doesn't give anawful lot away, he gives a wee
bit of detail in his ownconfessions.
He states that he was the son ofa deacon and the grandson of a
priest.
And he was from Bannaventa,Burnia.
I hope I've got that right.
(04:23):
which is a town in the west ofBritain.
What we would commonly refer toas present day Wales.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (04:28):
So what you're telling me is,
Spence, St.
Patrick, the patron saint ofIreland, All those who like
drinking the black stuff isreally a Welsh man.
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:37):
that way.
History would tell us he isindeed a Welshman.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-202 (04:39):
Oh, well, I mean, what can you say I
do, there are some nice Welshmen,
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:43):
Not when we're playing them at
rugby.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (04:45):
So how did he get to Ireland then
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:47):
Well his life took a bit of a
harrowing turn at the age of 16.
So Patrick was believed he wascaptured by Irish raiders, taken
to Ireland as a slave, and herecounted that traumatic
experience in his own words,
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2024_ (04:59):
I was taken into captivity in
Ireland, along with thousands ofothers.
We deserved this.
We'd gone away from God and didnot keep his commandments.
Patrick then spent six years incaptivity, working as a shepherd
on Slemish Mountain.
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (05:17):
That's right, Chris, Slemish Mountain.
And just as a matter of, quirkyinterest, Slemish Mountain, and
that's what we locals call it, Idon't know if it's actually a
mountain, but Slemish isactually just a few minutes from
where I'm sitting right now,speaking to you.
It's not too far from where Ilive, it's the Crow Flags, and
he was enslaved there.
So it sits in the Cornstone,British Ian, in Northern
Ireland, and it's a very specialplace.
(05:39):
I'm sure you've seen it,
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2024_ (05:39):
I definitely have and I think that
it reminds me of Devil's Towerin Close Encounters because it
just sits on its own in themiddle of the land so for a 360
you can see it from plenty ofdirections
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (05:56):
That's very true, and it doesn't really
matter how you regard it, ifit's, the impressive remnants of
a long extinct volcano, or ifyou're looking at it as one of
those keystones from IrishChristian history, which all
these pilgrims still visit tothis very day, it is without
doubt a dramatic, inspiringsight to look upon, as you say,
just like Close Encounters.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-202 (06:17):
and do they still go up barefoot
once a year
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (06:19):
They do, Chris, and that's about 437
metres from the plane to thetop.
One and a half kilometre roundwalk to get to the summit.
That's got slippery terrain aswell.
chris-patterson_4_11-20 (06:29):
There's a lot of them.
There's hundreds of them that goup and do that barefoot every
year.
It's not my cup of tea rightnow, but fair play to them it's
usually raining.
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (06:36):
To my shame, even though I'm a
local, it's been a long time.
So I suppose I should make asolemn vow now to all the
listeners of Irish Gothic that Iwill traverse Slavish at some
point in the near future.
Chris, you can have the airambulance on standby for me.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2 (06:49):
Yeah.
Patrick was enslaved by a localfarmer.
And he was basically.
put onto Slemish as a shepherdand anyone who's seen Slemish,
and we'll put pictures up on thesocial media, it is, and
(07:11):
especially back then, a verydesolate place that would have
complete solitude and that'swhere we think Patrick grew
closer to nature and in turncloser to God.
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (07:24):
That's right.
And eventually, Patrick, helater did escape Slemish.
I think at the age of 22, hereturned to Britain.
But then he felt the call tocome back to Ireland as a
missionary, and he arrived backin Ireland around 432 AD and
began to preach Christianity tothe pagan Irish people.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-20 (07:42):
read a few things, but one of the
main things I read was he was abit of a scourge to the pagans.
He basically, he did not likepagans at all, obviously.
And he wasn't behind the door indriving them out of places.
A bit like a witch findergeneral.
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (07:58):
Yep, he definitely faced a lot of
opposition From the pagan Druidsand hardships and persecution.
His faith, dedication, led tothe establishment of monasteries
and churches throughout thecountry and the widespread
acceptance of Christianity inIreland.
But definitely a character youcan look at from two sides.
I think we talk about that alittle bit later when we're
going to look at some of themythology, some of the legends
(08:21):
that St.
Patrick is linked to I supposethe next link in the chain then
would be his, death.
Chris, is that shrouded inmystery
chris-patterson_4_11-20-202 (08:27):
st.
Patrick died on, can you guessthe date?
Not the whole date, just the dayof the year.
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (08:32):
That's got to be more than 17th then,
has it?
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2024 (08:33):
Of course it is, it's March 17th,
though I'm sure there wasGregorian and Roman calendars
that moved that around, butcertainly March 17th, 461.
Now we'll come back later towhere he is supposedly buried,
but I think we'll go and look atsome of the yarned legends and
miracles associated with the bigguy.
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (08:54):
of Ireland, subject of many legends
and miracles.
In fact, he's known as the manof a thousand miracles.
So, No shortage of material,Chris.
It's just whittling it down abit into a short podcast.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2 (09:05):
Well, that's it.
I mean, I've got one about anexorcism in a pub, but I think
what we should look at first issome of the most famous ones.
And certainly amongst the top isthe shamrock.
chris-patterson_5_11-20 (09:17):
Patrick is said to have used the three
leaves of the shamrock toexplain the Holy Trinity to a
non believer.
The shamrock is Ireland'snational flower of course and
traditionally worn on StPatrick's Day.
The simple yet powerful imageresonated with the Irish people
and became a symbol ofChristianity in Ireland.
(09:37):
Have you ever worn a shamrock onSt Patrick's Day, Spence?
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (09:41):
I believe I have, Chris.
I've definitely had a shamrockon, maybe an Arden shirt or
something when we were playingthe rugby,
chris-patterson_5_11-20-202 (09:47):
oh, most definitely.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (09:48):
I haven't went full Shillelagh, I
have to say, you know.
At
chris-patterson_5_11-20-202 (09:54):
put it up on the socials.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (09:56):
the top of Slemish.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-202 (10:02):
The story that everybody knows, that
everybody's heard.
St.
Patrick got rid of all thesnakes in Ireland.
What's that all about?
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (10:09):
That always conjures up images of
Gandalf, you know, standing anddriving, driving out orcs and
what have you.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-20 (10:14):
Thou shalt not slither.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (10:19):
So the story goes that Patrick
drove all the snakes fromIreland into the sea and drowned
them.
We know that the, the sculliesin the room would contend
differently, they would sayIreland has no native snakes
because they are, as an islandit's too cold for reptiles
during the last ice age andthere was no land bridge to
connect Ireland to Britain, sothere couldn't be any snakes
but, you know, it's certainlystill too cold and there
(10:40):
certainly are no snakes.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2 (10:41):
Well, It's friggin freezing, I can
tell you that.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (10:43):
it's funny enough Padraig doesn't
mention Shamrocks or driving thesnakes from Ireland in his
confessions.
All these traditions have grownup around the story and came
much later.
But, I mean, you can't hide thefact there are no snakes.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-2 (10:56):
Well, that's true.
I haven't seen it.
I've never seen a snake so, youknow, all I can
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (11:00):
Yep.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-20 (11:01):
must be true.
most definitely, I mean, heseemed to have a thing with
snakes, St.
Patrick there is a story of himat the River Shannon.
He was approaching some steppingstones at a small ford when he
was faced with a serpent whosebody was twice as thick as a
large oak tree, blacker than thehounds of hell, and had two
(11:21):
large eyes as red as blood.
When the large serpent moved,the swell of water would disturb
the entire river, leaving thewater muddy for miles.
Using only his hook staff,there's the old Gandalf coming
out there.
Using only his hook staff, hesays, thou shalt not pass, no he
didn't, he didn't say thou shaltnot pass.
(11:42):
He says, caught the serpent.
And chained it to where theriver Shannon meets at three
points.
There it would languish untilJudgment Day.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (11:54):
Oh, that's good, that's good.
Another story from Patrickagain, associated with serpents,
was when he came to the aid offarmers in the Galtie Mountains.
So they believed that they werecursed, that their cattle and
their sheep were dying becausethere was evidence of a
(12:15):
snakebite.
on their livestock.
so this time St.
Patrick armed once again withhis trusty crooked staff only
this time with the addition of abucket.
Chris,
chris-patterson_5_11-20-2024 (12:23):
As you
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (12:24):
As you do, set off into the
mountains and here he found thekiller snake and he used the
hook of his staff to lift it andplace it inside the bucket.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193 (12:31):
Patrick then cast the snake into the
depths of the Loch Musgrae,that's County Tipperary,
commanding it to stay in thelake for seven years.
From that day forth, thelivestock and the land
flourished.
The curse was lifted.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-2024_ (12:43):
I mean, he definitely had a thing
for snakes.
spence_6_11-20-2024_19322 (12:48):
These encounters, along with others,
are representative ofChristianity embollied in St.
Patrick as he defeats sin andthe devil embollied in the
various monstrous forms and weassociate quite often the devil
with the serpent
chris-patterson_6_11-20-2 (13:01):
there is a legend about St.
Patrick and an exorcism thatinvolves an innkeeper and a
demon.
St.
Patrick was at an inn he tellsthe innkeeper that a demon is in
her cellar and has been feedingoff her dishonesty.
He tells her that she mustchange her ways to get rid of
that demon.
Later, Patrick returns to theinn and finds that the innkeeper
(13:22):
is now serving her guestsgenerous portions of whiskey.
He praises her and takes her tothe cellar where they find the
demon withering.
The demon flees in a flash offlame and Patrick decrees that
people should drink whiskey onhis feast day in memory of this.
This is said to be the origin ofdrowning the shamrock on St.
(13:45):
Patrick's Day.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (13:46):
only in Irish Gothic can we bring
demons and monsters into thetale of St.
Patrick, which is probably quitea salatized story, Chris, do you
agree?
chris-patterson_6_11-20-2 (13:53):
100%.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (13:54):
I guess that's how we roll.
Just to keep that theme going,St.
Patrick was also believed tohave raised the dead.
So according to some 12thcentury writings, Patrick raised
33 people from the dead,including some who'd been
deceased for many, many years.
The Life and Acts of St.
Patrick, translated from theoriginal Latin, states, For the
blind and the lame, the deaf andthe dumb, the palsied, the
(14:16):
lunatic, the leprous, theepileptic, all who laboured
under any disease did he in thename of the holy trinity restore
unto the power of their limbsand unto their entire health.
In these good deeds was he dailypractised.
Thirty and three dead men, someof whom had been dead many years
buried, that this great reviverraise from the dead.
(14:38):
And they say that Not so much aparty trick, much more than a
party trick, but, it was partlyhis way of these reverences,
these people he was raising fromthe dead.
He got them to recount all thehorrors of hell, the burning
lakes, the torments, the demons,the worm that never sleeps, and
he would use these reanimatedpeople to convince other non
(14:58):
believers of the terrible fatethat was waiting for them deep
down in hell.
chris-patterson_6_11-20-2 (15:04):
We've talked about this before, but he
was using fear people toChristianity.
He was trying to scare them outof the old ways, saying, oh, you
know, there's all this stuffwaiting on you and you'll go to
hell, unless you do what I say.
There's plenty of these stories.
There's one called the black pigon the devil's track.
I don't know whether you've everheard of that one, Spence.
Yeah.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (15:24):
I'm semi familiar with it, but I'll
let you go on there.
And
chris-patterson_6_11-20 (15:29):
learned from a terrified local of a
fierce and black pig, which waslying waste to the crops and the
scourge of the countryside waslying waste to the crops and was
the scourge of the countryside.
Recognizing the creature as ademonic in nature, St.
Patrick set out to find it andsure enough.
encountered the creature.
The pig fled and St.
(15:49):
Patrick gave chase.
The pig slipped in the wet mudand Patrick stuck and shook the
creature with his staff andrecited the Lord's Prayer.
He returned to the villagerstelling them that evil had been
vanquished.
From then on the pig was neversighted again and the harvests
were plentiful.
(16:10):
Farmers, animals no longerfrightened the night.
People were amazed.
And of course, they turned toGod.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (16:19):
I do believe, Chris, that the little,
bookend of that story is thatsome years later a farmer found
a stone in a field.
And on that stoner was animprint of a human foot, and a
cloven hoof, and the localsbelieved that the hoof was the
markings of the devil, and thefoot imprint belonged to
Patrick, who had stumped the oldgent, Old Nick himself, in the
(16:41):
form of the black pig, in thesubmission.
chris-patterson_6_11-20-20 (16:44):
It's definitely interesting because
when you look at exorcisms, Ibelieve Jesus in the Bible did
an exorcism and he took thedemons out of people and put
them into pigs.
So, one of the first exorcismsever talked about in the Bible
was Jesus taking a demon out ofa man and putting it into pigs.
spence_6_11-20-2024_1 (17:03):
Goodness.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (17:15):
So St.
Patrick has clearly had a hugeinfluence on not just Ireland,
but the world.
And as we mentioned earlier, hismissionary work put him in
direct conflict with paganDruids.
His faith and dedication wassaid to have turned chieftains
into monks, Druids into priests,and it led to the acceptance of
Christianity in Ireland.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-20 (17:34):
Yes, Spencer in that regard, he is
seen as a savior by many, abringer of light to darkness of
paganism.
But to those pagans past andpresent with their own dearly
held complex belief systems,Patrick naturally represented
something entirely different tothose Drs and Pagans.
St.
Patrick was the bringer ofdarkness not light, the
(17:56):
instigator of destruction oftheir beliefs and culture.
There is no greater explorationof this conflict than the legend
of Oisin and St.
Patrick in what has been calledthe Great Debate.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (18:09):
It truly is a great debate.
paraphrasing a little here fromVidae Augusta, Gregory's, Oisín
from Gods and Fighting Men,1904.
Okay, but from that we, askedthe question, who was Oisin?
Oisin was a revered warrior.
He was the poet's son of themythical, I'll give you a clue,
Chris.
He's tall, he churns up thecauseway, and sometimes dresses
(18:31):
as a baby.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (18:32):
Oh no, it's not big Finn McCool.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (18:34):
Finn McCool, son of Finn McCool.
You can catch that on an earlierpodcast of Irish Gothic.
And similar to the other tale,we talked about the tale of
Neira from our Cave of Catspodcast.
Oisin, son of Finn McCool, alsomade a trip to the outer world.
At the behest of a fairyprincess, Niamh, she had fallen
in love with his poetry.
And there he lived with Niamhand the rest of the she, hunting
(18:56):
and dancing and feasting andsleeping and dreaming for many
lifetimes.
But just as with Nira in theCave of Cat's Tail, in time
Oisín longed for Ireland and hiscomrades.
So Leigh lent him her horse andshe warned him that he must not
touch the ground back in thereal world or he would never
return.
So he came back to Ireland andhe was still a young man and he
(19:19):
set out to find his warriorcompanions but found they were
all dead and that the paganfaith of Ireland had been
displaced by Patrick'sChristianity.
And as he rode alongdespondently, he saw a group of
farmers struggling to move aboulder.
And as soon as he decided to goto the reef, he reached down, he
tossed a stone aside for him,but as he did, he fell from the
horse and he touched the ground.
(19:41):
And in that minute, his hero'sbody withered and twisted, as
all the hundreds of years goneby suddenly seized upon him.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (19:48):
Oh yeah, I mean, happens to me all
the time when I walk down thestairs.
Those farmers, when they saw theyoung strange hero shriveled
before their eyes into a feebleold man, the farmers bought
Oisin to the one person theythought could help him.
Who do you think that was?
spence_7_11-20-2024_19412 (20:09):
Yeah, it's gotta be awesome, Patrick.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (20:10):
It certainly was and Patrick
welcomed the wizened old Oisinwarmly and invited him in to
convert him of course to the newfaith.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (20:20):
And that's when this great debate
then occurred between these two,I guess, opposing factions.
So Patrick was urging Austin tosing the Psalms and he could be
restored.
But Austin replied that hisstrength was gone not because of
the lack of singing, it was thelack of companionship of his
friends.
Patrick countered that the musicwas the music of heaven.
It was better than anythingAustin had ever shared with any
(20:42):
army on a hill.
Well then, Oisín, just youmentioning your dog earlier
there Chris, asked St.
Patrick, Will I see my hound inheaven, or any of my father's
good hounds?
You may want to cover your earshere Chris, or cover Luna's
ears.
Patrick answered, animals haveno immortal souls, and do not go
(21:03):
to God's house.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (21:04):
Oh dear, dear, dear, dear.
A lot of people won't like that.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (21:07):
I guess.
So Oisín, He didn't think muchof any God who would not abide
the hound of heroes in theirhalls, you know.
He then asked where his fatherand where his comrades, would
they be in heaven waiting forhim?
Padraig shook his head grimly,said that they were men who knew
nothing of the Lord, that theyglorified in battle, they
glorified in blood.
(21:27):
And for all the harm that theyhad done to others, in the
darkness of their disbelief,they would also not be in
heaven.
So Ocean said, if they're not inheaven, where are, where is my
father?
Where are my comrades?
St.
Patrick of course said they werein hell.
And that's where you will go toOcean if you do not convert.
chris-patterson_7_11-20 (21:45):
Patrick then told Oisín about the fiery
lake, about the torments, aboutthe demons and about the worm
that never dies.
He keeps bringing these thingsback up.
A terrible place to languish forall eternity.
And Oisín must do all in hispower to escape those fires.
Hin didn't agree.
(22:05):
He said to Patrick that no devilor demon could keep Finn McKool
and the Fi Vienna under thebonds and has a sadness and
spirits rose.
Oisín demanded to know how anygod could excel Finn MacCull for
goodness.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (22:23):
How could it be that God or his
priests could be better men thanFinn, the King of the Fianna, a
generous man withoutcrookedness?
If there was a place above orbelow, better than the heaven of
God, it is there that Finn wouldgo, and all that are with him of
his people.
You say that a generous mannever goes to the hell of pain.
There was not one among theFianna that was not generous to
(22:43):
all.
Ask of God, Patrick.
he remember when the Fianna werealive or has he seen east or
west any man better thanthemselves in their fighting?
They used not to be sayingtreachery, we never had the name
of telling lies.
By truth and the strength of ourhorns we came safe out of every
battle.
There never sat a priest in achurch, though you'd think it
sweet to be singing psalms, wasbetter to his word than the
(23:06):
Fianna, or more generous thanFinn himself.
chris-patterson_7_11-20 (23:09):
witless old man.
That was Patrick's reply tothat.
It is my king that made theheavens.
It is he that gathers blossomsto the trees, it is he that the
moon, it is he made the moon,and sun, and fields, and the
grass.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (23:27):
If it is true what you say, Oisin
continued, that your God is sounfriendly that he does not
offer hospitality to any butthose who obey.
his rules and would turn outgreat and good men like my
father.
my father and my comrades arecertainly in hell, but I tell
you now they have eitheroverthrown the devil and are
ruling there themselves or theyhave escaped long since and they
(23:47):
are elsewhere.
And it is there, wherever theymay be, that I am bound.
I will go to no house where myfather is not welcome.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-202 (23:54):
And at that, Oisin Afena thanked
Patrick for his benevolence andbreathed his last and went to
find his friends.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (24:04):
Wow.
And that, debate goes on.
That argument of washington'ssympathic I think it really
elegantly illustrates that clashof competing belief systems,
Chris, doesn't it?
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (24:14):
It most definitely does.
I mean, you've got a scenariothere where the old is
justifying itself against thenew and the new sort of
struggles to justify itself fora stop.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (24:28):
I think as with many things Irish
Gothic, when you peel back thesurface a bit, there's so much
more to learn.
And we've found that every stepof the way.
And with St.
Patrick, there's so much morethan, jaunty leprechaun hats and
shillelaghs and shamrocks.
Have you any final
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2 (24:44):
Well, I definitely, I mean, we could
talk about and we touched on it.
A little bit earlier on, but ofcourse he died on.
The 17th of March, 461 A.
D.
And legend said that he's buriedoutside Down Cathedral in Down
Patrick.
At the highest part of thecathedral lies the grave of St.
Patrick.
(25:05):
Have you ever been there,Spence?
Have you seen the, have you seenthe grave, the big rock?
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (25:08):
I have actually been quite, quite
recently, Chris.
And even though.
I was moaning about how hard aclimb Slammish is.
actually quite a steep hill upto the church as well.
chris-patterson_7_11- (25:17):
certainly is.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (25:19):
it's a stunning place.
A fantastic visitor centre aswell.
So much
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (25:23):
Oh yeah, that's reasonably, I mean
it's reasonably new and it's theone place in the world which
really holds the mostinformation about St.
Patrick.
If you want to know theinformation, that's the place to
go, that visitor center.
So, on his grave is a massivegranite stone marker.
And that was placed there onCathedral Hill in the early
1900s to protect the grave fromthe many pilgrims.
(25:44):
Because they were coming alongand chipping bits of the grave
away and taking it with them.
scooping the earth up.
So it was really eroding awaythat area.
So they had to stop that.
St.
Patrick was honoured as one ofthe most influential figures in
Irish history.
And of course, his feast day,which is March 17th, is
celebrated worldwide.
And that includes, Chicago, whoturned their rivers green.
(26:07):
Dublin, who has a St.
Patrick's Day march, as doesBelfast.
And basically, globally, whereeveryone lifts a pint at St.
Patrick on the 17th of March.
And I'm sure you do the same,Spence.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (26:19):
I do, Chris, and now I'll be able
to, show off and drop a fewlittle tidbits of information
about St.
Patrick, which think it's fairto say most people maybe don't
know, so it's, uh, and we're solucky, Chris, to have these, as
I say, a few miles from here,there's the mountain, there's
Flemish, some miles in the otherdirection.
There's where he's buried.
There's the river where he droveout.
We're so, so lucky to have thisas part of our landscape.
(26:41):
But I'm sure Chris you'll beable to put up some photographs
and things onto the show docks.
To let folks from further afieldsee what we're talking about.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-20 (26:47):
Most definitely.
we'll get some stuff up thereand also Spence, after you've
had a few Guinnesses, you can goout with your big staff and,
beat down the pagans.
Because seemingly he was thescourge of the pagans.
that's pretty much St.
Patrick.
There's a few other stories, butif you need to find them, you
can look in the show notes andthere's plenty of links in there
that'll tell you the thousandsof stories that may be true and
(27:10):
may not be true.
chris-patterson_9_11-20-2024 (27:28):
So that, Spence, was St.
Patrick.
So you can put down your greenbeer and box back up your
shillelaghs.
Because next week we're back onthe monster trail the kelpie.
And just give me a brief whatthe
spence_9_11-20-2024_20000 (27:42):
Well, the Kilpie is one of those very
fearsome enigmatic creatures,Chris.
It's a shape shifting,Leviathan, I guess, some might
say, that sort of stalks theshores of lonely lakes and lochs
and rivers, looking for theunwary to pull into the depths.
chris-patterson_9_11-20-202 (27:56):
Oh, I think you've said enough.
You've said enough.
You've set me up for next week.
So make sure you tune in nextweek to hear more about that
shapeshifting monster.
But until then, goodnight folks.
spence_9_11-20-2024_200004 (28:09):
Bye, folks.
Looks like your story has foundyou.
I wish It were another.
But what's meant for you, won'tgo by you.
(28:30):
I'm sorry.
Ach, now.
No need to look so scared, eh?
Enjoy the fire.
Have a sop.
Sure.
Is it all just Irish Gothic?
All just Irish Gothic.
chris-patterson_10_10-17-20 (28:58):
You can find us at iris gothic pod
on Instagram or X, or if youwant to support us, please buy
us a coffee
spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 (29:06):
and look, while you're there, give
us a follow to keep up with allthings in the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
Send us any Irish myths,legends, stories that you'd like
us to delve into next.
chris-patterson_10_10-23-20 (29:17):
The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought
to you by Causeway Pictures.
It's hosted by Chris Pattersonand Spence Wright.
And was produced by RebeccaAlcorn.
All rights reserved.
chris-patterson_10_10-17- (29:31):
Check out our other podcast, Hostage
to the Devil, which delves intothe dark world of possession and
exorcism.
You can get it wherever you getyour podcasts.
I know all the folks round thesearts and parts.
Can't say I know you.
Leastways.
Not yet.
But I dare say I know whatyou'll be wanting.
Some of the crack, maybe.
How we yarn with your sup, isit?
(00:40):
No harm in that.
Come on over.
Warm yourself, hmm?
I'll warn you though.
If it's the old Begara andBlarney shenanigans you're
after, you'll not hear them fromme.
Well, if such, like, pleasesyou, you sit on.
(01:00):
I'll fill your ears.
And see what story is meant foryou.
On this dark old night.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (01:26):
So how are you this evening Spence?
chris-patterson_4_11-20- (01:27):
you're going to have to forgive me
tonight, Bence.
I've got the dog running aboutthe house, so if you hear any
barking or sniffing or shaking,it'll be the dog, not me I'm
good, Chris.
There was almost one less, shihtzu crossed with a poodle,
shoodle dog in the world thisweek.
my new dog, you know, all aboutthe rocket.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (01:46):
He is a rocket
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (01:48):
he ate my reading glasses.
And I have been fumbling aroundlike Mr.
McCoo for the better part ofthis week, mate.
other than that, yeah, we've hadquite a few seasons this
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (01:57):
Oh we have eh?
The
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (01:58):
I think we saw our first drop of
snow.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-20 (01:59):
Have you got the snow up round you?
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (02:01):
wee touch of it today, mate, yeah, a
wee touch.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2 (02:03):
We're too wet down here.
spence_3_11-20-2024_19074 (02:04):
These city slickers, you see.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-20 (02:06):
City slickers.
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (02:07):
ha, ha, ha,
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024_ (02:07):
I was just looking through the
news there just to delve alittle bit into true crime,
which I know is a passion for usboth as well.
they reopened the case of themissing German hitchhiker from
22 years ago.
spence_3_11-20-2024_1 (02:21):
goodness, yes, Inga Maria Houser, yeah.
chris-patterson_3_11-20- (02:24):
Yeah., they normally reopen cases when
they have something to reopen,don't they?
Yeah.
spence_3_11-20-2024_1907 (02:28):
that's a fairly, infamous and emotive
case here in Northern Ireland,but Inga, was a free spirit, a
German, backpacker who travelledin Northern Ireland, back in,
1988 and she basicallydisappeared after getting off
the Lorne ferry on the coast.
She travelled over fromScotland, disappeared and was
found two weeks later.
She's only 18 years old in aremote part of Ballypatrick
(02:51):
Forest out in Ballycastle,County Antrim.
as you say Chris, no one's beenconvicted of her killing, so
that suggests something stirringout there.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-20 (03:01):
Yeah it's definitely interesting when
these things come back up.
I think when the things backthrough DNA, like the Golden
State Killer and people likethat, who have been taken more
from familiar DNA, family DNA,than their own personal DNA but
it's definitely an interestingcase always worth having an eye
on and maybe if something doescome up we'll mention it again
(03:21):
further down the line ifsomething happens.
spence_3_11-20-2024 (03:23):
Absolutely, that's one to keep an eye
chris-patterson_3_11-20-202 (03:25):
But tonight, right back to the big
man himself.
He's so big he has his own day.
So everyone out there, pints andput your leprechaun hat on
because tonight we're going todo St.
Patrick So, let's start off withthe basics.
(03:51):
St.
Patrick was a patron saint ofIreland and was born in Britain
around 385 AD to a wealthyRomanised family.
I assume that means he was aRoman, then, Spence?
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:02):
As with all these figures, we know
of them and what is actuallywritten down and provable is
very different, you know, butyeah, Romanized family living in
Britain, he doesn't give anawful lot away, he gives a wee
bit of detail in his ownconfessions.
He states that he was the son ofa deacon and the grandson of a
priest.
And he was from Bannaventa,Burnia.
I hope I've got that right.
(04:23):
which is a town in the west ofBritain.
What we would commonly refer toas present day Wales.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (04:28):
So what you're telling me is,
Spence, St.
Patrick, the patron saint ofIreland, All those who like
drinking the black stuff isreally a Welsh man.
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:37):
that way.
History would tell us he isindeed a Welshman.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-202 (04:39):
Oh, well, I mean, what can you say I
do, there are some nice Welshmen,
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:43):
Not when we're playing them at
rugby.
chris-patterson_3_11-20-2024 (04:45):
So how did he get to Ireland then
spence_3_11-20-2024_190742 (04:47):
Well his life took a bit of a
harrowing turn at the age of 16.
So Patrick was believed he wascaptured by Irish raiders, taken
to Ireland as a slave, and herecounted that traumatic
experience in his own words,
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2024_ (04:59):
I was taken into captivity in
Ireland, along with thousands ofothers.
We deserved this.
We'd gone away from God and didnot keep his commandments.
Patrick then spent six years incaptivity, working as a shepherd
on Slemish Mountain.
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (05:17):
That's right, Chris, Slemish Mountain.
And just as a matter of, quirkyinterest, Slemish Mountain, and
that's what we locals call it, Idon't know if it's actually a
mountain, but Slemish isactually just a few minutes from
where I'm sitting right now,speaking to you.
It's not too far from where Ilive, it's the Crow Flags, and
he was enslaved there.
So it sits in the Cornstone,British Ian, in Northern
Ireland, and it's a very specialplace.
(05:39):
I'm sure you've seen it,
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2024_ (05:39):
I definitely have and I think that
it reminds me of Devil's Towerin Close Encounters because it
just sits on its own in themiddle of the land so for a 360
you can see it from plenty ofdirections
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (05:56):
That's very true, and it doesn't really
matter how you regard it, ifit's, the impressive remnants of
a long extinct volcano, or ifyou're looking at it as one of
those keystones from IrishChristian history, which all
these pilgrims still visit tothis very day, it is without
doubt a dramatic, inspiringsight to look upon, as you say,
just like Close Encounters.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-202 (06:17):
and do they still go up barefoot
once a year
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (06:19):
They do, Chris, and that's about 437
metres from the plane to thetop.
One and a half kilometre roundwalk to get to the summit.
That's got slippery terrain aswell.
chris-patterson_4_11-20 (06:29):
There's a lot of them.
There's hundreds of them that goup and do that barefoot every
year.
It's not my cup of tea rightnow, but fair play to them it's
usually raining.
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (06:36):
To my shame, even though I'm a
local, it's been a long time.
So I suppose I should make asolemn vow now to all the
listeners of Irish Gothic that Iwill traverse Slavish at some
point in the near future.
Chris, you can have the airambulance on standby for me.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2 (06:49):
Yeah.
Patrick was enslaved by a localfarmer.
And he was basically.
put onto Slemish as a shepherdand anyone who's seen Slemish,
and we'll put pictures up on thesocial media, it is, and
(07:11):
especially back then, a verydesolate place that would have
complete solitude and that'swhere we think Patrick grew
closer to nature and in turncloser to God.
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (07:24):
That's right.
And eventually, Patrick, helater did escape Slemish.
I think at the age of 22, hereturned to Britain.
But then he felt the call tocome back to Ireland as a
missionary, and he arrived backin Ireland around 432 AD and
began to preach Christianity tothe pagan Irish people.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-20 (07:42):
read a few things, but one of the
main things I read was he was abit of a scourge to the pagans.
He basically, he did not likepagans at all, obviously.
And he wasn't behind the door indriving them out of places.
A bit like a witch findergeneral.
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (07:58):
Yep, he definitely faced a lot of
opposition From the pagan Druidsand hardships and persecution.
His faith, dedication, led tothe establishment of monasteries
and churches throughout thecountry and the widespread
acceptance of Christianity inIreland.
But definitely a character youcan look at from two sides.
I think we talk about that alittle bit later when we're
going to look at some of themythology, some of the legends
(08:21):
that St.
Patrick is linked to I supposethe next link in the chain then
would be his, death.
Chris, is that shrouded inmystery
chris-patterson_4_11-20-202 (08:27):
st.
Patrick died on, can you guessthe date?
Not the whole date, just the dayof the year.
spence_4_11-20-2024_1915 (08:32):
That's got to be more than 17th then,
has it?
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2024 (08:33):
Of course it is, it's March 17th,
though I'm sure there wasGregorian and Roman calendars
that moved that around, butcertainly March 17th, 461.
Now we'll come back later towhere he is supposedly buried,
but I think we'll go and look atsome of the yarned legends and
miracles associated with the bigguy.
spence_4_11-20-2024_191557 (08:54):
of Ireland, subject of many legends
and miracles.
In fact, he's known as the manof a thousand miracles.
So, No shortage of material,Chris.
It's just whittling it down abit into a short podcast.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2 (09:05):
Well, that's it.
I mean, I've got one about anexorcism in a pub, but I think
what we should look at first issome of the most famous ones.
And certainly amongst the top isthe shamrock.
chris-patterson_5_11-20 (09:17):
Patrick is said to have used the three
leaves of the shamrock toexplain the Holy Trinity to a
non believer.
The shamrock is Ireland'snational flower of course and
traditionally worn on StPatrick's Day.
The simple yet powerful imageresonated with the Irish people
and became a symbol ofChristianity in Ireland.
(09:37):
Have you ever worn a shamrock onSt Patrick's Day, Spence?
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (09:41):
I believe I have, Chris.
I've definitely had a shamrockon, maybe an Arden shirt or
something when we were playingthe rugby,
chris-patterson_5_11-20-202 (09:47):
oh, most definitely.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (09:48):
I haven't went full Shillelagh, I
have to say, you know.
At
chris-patterson_5_11-20-202 (09:54):
put it up on the socials.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (09:56):
the top of Slemish.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-202 (10:02):
The story that everybody knows, that
everybody's heard.
St.
Patrick got rid of all thesnakes in Ireland.
What's that all about?
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (10:09):
That always conjures up images of
Gandalf, you know, standing anddriving, driving out orcs and
what have you.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-20 (10:14):
Thou shalt not slither.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (10:19):
So the story goes that Patrick
drove all the snakes fromIreland into the sea and drowned
them.
We know that the, the sculliesin the room would contend
differently, they would sayIreland has no native snakes
because they are, as an islandit's too cold for reptiles
during the last ice age andthere was no land bridge to
connect Ireland to Britain, sothere couldn't be any snakes
but, you know, it's certainlystill too cold and there
(10:40):
certainly are no snakes.
chris-patterson_4_11-20-2 (10:41):
Well, It's friggin freezing, I can
tell you that.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (10:43):
it's funny enough Padraig doesn't
mention Shamrocks or driving thesnakes from Ireland in his
confessions.
All these traditions have grownup around the story and came
much later.
But, I mean, you can't hide thefact there are no snakes.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-2 (10:56):
Well, that's true.
I haven't seen it.
I've never seen a snake so, youknow, all I can
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (11:00):
Yep.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-20 (11:01):
must be true.
most definitely, I mean, heseemed to have a thing with
snakes, St.
Patrick there is a story of himat the River Shannon.
He was approaching some steppingstones at a small ford when he
was faced with a serpent whosebody was twice as thick as a
large oak tree, blacker than thehounds of hell, and had two
(11:21):
large eyes as red as blood.
When the large serpent moved,the swell of water would disturb
the entire river, leaving thewater muddy for miles.
Using only his hook staff,there's the old Gandalf coming
out there.
Using only his hook staff, hesays, thou shalt not pass, no he
didn't, he didn't say thou shaltnot pass.
(11:42):
He says, caught the serpent.
And chained it to where theriver Shannon meets at three
points.
There it would languish untilJudgment Day.
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (11:54):
Oh, that's good, that's good.
Another story from Patrickagain, associated with serpents,
was when he came to the aid offarmers in the Galtie Mountains.
So they believed that they werecursed, that their cattle and
their sheep were dying becausethere was evidence of a
(12:15):
snakebite.
on their livestock.
so this time St.
Patrick armed once again withhis trusty crooked staff only
this time with the addition of abucket.
Chris,
chris-patterson_5_11-20-2024 (12:23):
As you
spence_5_11-20-2024_192606 (12:24):
As you do, set off into the
mountains and here he found thekiller snake and he used the
hook of his staff to lift it andplace it inside the bucket.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193 (12:31):
Patrick then cast the snake into the
depths of the Loch Musgrae,that's County Tipperary,
commanding it to stay in thelake for seven years.
From that day forth, thelivestock and the land
flourished.
The curse was lifted.
chris-patterson_5_11-20-2024_ (12:43):
I mean, he definitely had a thing
for snakes.
spence_6_11-20-2024_19322 (12:48):
These encounters, along with others,
are representative ofChristianity embollied in St.
Patrick as he defeats sin andthe devil embollied in the
various monstrous forms and weassociate quite often the devil
with the serpent
chris-patterson_6_11-20-2 (13:01):
there is a legend about St.
Patrick and an exorcism thatinvolves an innkeeper and a
demon.
St.
Patrick was at an inn he tellsthe innkeeper that a demon is in
her cellar and has been feedingoff her dishonesty.
He tells her that she mustchange her ways to get rid of
that demon.
Later, Patrick returns to theinn and finds that the innkeeper
(13:22):
is now serving her guestsgenerous portions of whiskey.
He praises her and takes her tothe cellar where they find the
demon withering.
The demon flees in a flash offlame and Patrick decrees that
people should drink whiskey onhis feast day in memory of this.
This is said to be the origin ofdrowning the shamrock on St.
(13:45):
Patrick's Day.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (13:46):
only in Irish Gothic can we bring
demons and monsters into thetale of St.
Patrick, which is probably quitea salatized story, Chris, do you
agree?
chris-patterson_6_11-20-2 (13:53):
100%.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (13:54):
I guess that's how we roll.
Just to keep that theme going,St.
Patrick was also believed tohave raised the dead.
So according to some 12thcentury writings, Patrick raised
33 people from the dead,including some who'd been
deceased for many, many years.
The Life and Acts of St.
Patrick, translated from theoriginal Latin, states, For the
blind and the lame, the deaf andthe dumb, the palsied, the
(14:16):
lunatic, the leprous, theepileptic, all who laboured
under any disease did he in thename of the holy trinity restore
unto the power of their limbsand unto their entire health.
In these good deeds was he dailypractised.
Thirty and three dead men, someof whom had been dead many years
buried, that this great reviverraise from the dead.
(14:38):
And they say that Not so much aparty trick, much more than a
party trick, but, it was partlyhis way of these reverences,
these people he was raising fromthe dead.
He got them to recount all thehorrors of hell, the burning
lakes, the torments, the demons,the worm that never sleeps, and
he would use these reanimatedpeople to convince other non
(14:58):
believers of the terrible fatethat was waiting for them deep
down in hell.
chris-patterson_6_11-20-2 (15:04):
We've talked about this before, but he
was using fear people toChristianity.
He was trying to scare them outof the old ways, saying, oh, you
know, there's all this stuffwaiting on you and you'll go to
hell, unless you do what I say.
There's plenty of these stories.
There's one called the black pigon the devil's track.
I don't know whether you've everheard of that one, Spence.
Yeah.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (15:24):
I'm semi familiar with it, but I'll
let you go on there.
And
chris-patterson_6_11-20 (15:29):
learned from a terrified local of a
fierce and black pig, which waslying waste to the crops and the
scourge of the countryside waslying waste to the crops and was
the scourge of the countryside.
Recognizing the creature as ademonic in nature, St.
Patrick set out to find it andsure enough.
encountered the creature.
The pig fled and St.
(15:49):
Patrick gave chase.
The pig slipped in the wet mudand Patrick stuck and shook the
creature with his staff andrecited the Lord's Prayer.
He returned to the villagerstelling them that evil had been
vanquished.
From then on the pig was neversighted again and the harvests
were plentiful.
(16:10):
Farmers, animals no longerfrightened the night.
People were amazed.
And of course, they turned toGod.
spence_6_11-20-2024_193225 (16:19):
I do believe, Chris, that the little,
bookend of that story is thatsome years later a farmer found
a stone in a field.
And on that stoner was animprint of a human foot, and a
cloven hoof, and the localsbelieved that the hoof was the
markings of the devil, and thefoot imprint belonged to
Patrick, who had stumped the oldgent, Old Nick himself, in the
(16:41):
form of the black pig, in thesubmission.
chris-patterson_6_11-20-20 (16:44):
It's definitely interesting because
when you look at exorcisms, Ibelieve Jesus in the Bible did
an exorcism and he took thedemons out of people and put
them into pigs.
So, one of the first exorcismsever talked about in the Bible
was Jesus taking a demon out ofa man and putting it into pigs.
spence_6_11-20-2024_1 (17:03):
Goodness.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (17:15):
So St.
Patrick has clearly had a hugeinfluence on not just Ireland,
but the world.
And as we mentioned earlier, hismissionary work put him in
direct conflict with paganDruids.
His faith and dedication wassaid to have turned chieftains
into monks, Druids into priests,and it led to the acceptance of
Christianity in Ireland.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-20 (17:34):
Yes, Spencer in that regard, he is
seen as a savior by many, abringer of light to darkness of
paganism.
But to those pagans past andpresent with their own dearly
held complex belief systems,Patrick naturally represented
something entirely different tothose Drs and Pagans.
St.
Patrick was the bringer ofdarkness not light, the
(17:56):
instigator of destruction oftheir beliefs and culture.
There is no greater explorationof this conflict than the legend
of Oisin and St.
Patrick in what has been calledthe Great Debate.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (18:09):
It truly is a great debate.
paraphrasing a little here fromVidae Augusta, Gregory's, Oisín
from Gods and Fighting Men,1904.
Okay, but from that we, askedthe question, who was Oisin?
Oisin was a revered warrior.
He was the poet's son of themythical, I'll give you a clue,
Chris.
He's tall, he churns up thecauseway, and sometimes dresses
(18:31):
as a baby.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (18:32):
Oh no, it's not big Finn McCool.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (18:34):
Finn McCool, son of Finn McCool.
You can catch that on an earlierpodcast of Irish Gothic.
And similar to the other tale,we talked about the tale of
Neira from our Cave of Catspodcast.
Oisin, son of Finn McCool, alsomade a trip to the outer world.
At the behest of a fairyprincess, Niamh, she had fallen
in love with his poetry.
And there he lived with Niamhand the rest of the she, hunting
(18:56):
and dancing and feasting andsleeping and dreaming for many
lifetimes.
But just as with Nira in theCave of Cat's Tail, in time
Oisín longed for Ireland and hiscomrades.
So Leigh lent him her horse andshe warned him that he must not
touch the ground back in thereal world or he would never
return.
So he came back to Ireland andhe was still a young man and he
(19:19):
set out to find his warriorcompanions but found they were
all dead and that the paganfaith of Ireland had been
displaced by Patrick'sChristianity.
And as he rode alongdespondently, he saw a group of
farmers struggling to move aboulder.
And as soon as he decided to goto the reef, he reached down, he
tossed a stone aside for him,but as he did, he fell from the
horse and he touched the ground.
(19:41):
And in that minute, his hero'sbody withered and twisted, as
all the hundreds of years goneby suddenly seized upon him.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (19:48):
Oh yeah, I mean, happens to me all
the time when I walk down thestairs.
Those farmers, when they saw theyoung strange hero shriveled
before their eyes into a feebleold man, the farmers bought
Oisin to the one person theythought could help him.
Who do you think that was?
spence_7_11-20-2024_19412 (20:09):
Yeah, it's gotta be awesome, Patrick.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (20:10):
It certainly was and Patrick
welcomed the wizened old Oisinwarmly and invited him in to
convert him of course to the newfaith.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (20:20):
And that's when this great debate
then occurred between these two,I guess, opposing factions.
So Patrick was urging Austin tosing the Psalms and he could be
restored.
But Austin replied that hisstrength was gone not because of
the lack of singing, it was thelack of companionship of his
friends.
Patrick countered that the musicwas the music of heaven.
It was better than anythingAustin had ever shared with any
(20:42):
army on a hill.
Well then, Oisín, just youmentioning your dog earlier
there Chris, asked St.
Patrick, Will I see my hound inheaven, or any of my father's
good hounds?
You may want to cover your earshere Chris, or cover Luna's
ears.
Patrick answered, animals haveno immortal souls, and do not go
(21:03):
to God's house.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (21:04):
Oh dear, dear, dear, dear.
A lot of people won't like that.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (21:07):
I guess.
So Oisín, He didn't think muchof any God who would not abide
the hound of heroes in theirhalls, you know.
He then asked where his fatherand where his comrades, would
they be in heaven waiting forhim?
Padraig shook his head grimly,said that they were men who knew
nothing of the Lord, that theyglorified in battle, they
glorified in blood.
(21:27):
And for all the harm that theyhad done to others, in the
darkness of their disbelief,they would also not be in
heaven.
So Ocean said, if they're not inheaven, where are, where is my
father?
Where are my comrades?
St.
Patrick of course said they werein hell.
And that's where you will go toOcean if you do not convert.
chris-patterson_7_11-20 (21:45):
Patrick then told Oisín about the fiery
lake, about the torments, aboutthe demons and about the worm
that never dies.
He keeps bringing these thingsback up.
A terrible place to languish forall eternity.
And Oisín must do all in hispower to escape those fires.
Hin didn't agree.
(22:05):
He said to Patrick that no devilor demon could keep Finn McKool
and the Fi Vienna under thebonds and has a sadness and
spirits rose.
Oisín demanded to know how anygod could excel Finn MacCull for
goodness.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (22:23):
How could it be that God or his
priests could be better men thanFinn, the King of the Fianna, a
generous man withoutcrookedness?
If there was a place above orbelow, better than the heaven of
God, it is there that Finn wouldgo, and all that are with him of
his people.
You say that a generous mannever goes to the hell of pain.
There was not one among theFianna that was not generous to
(22:43):
all.
Ask of God, Patrick.
he remember when the Fianna werealive or has he seen east or
west any man better thanthemselves in their fighting?
They used not to be sayingtreachery, we never had the name
of telling lies.
By truth and the strength of ourhorns we came safe out of every
battle.
There never sat a priest in achurch, though you'd think it
sweet to be singing psalms, wasbetter to his word than the
(23:06):
Fianna, or more generous thanFinn himself.
chris-patterson_7_11-20 (23:09):
witless old man.
That was Patrick's reply tothat.
It is my king that made theheavens.
It is he that gathers blossomsto the trees, it is he that the
moon, it is he made the moon,and sun, and fields, and the
grass.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (23:27):
If it is true what you say, Oisin
continued, that your God is sounfriendly that he does not
offer hospitality to any butthose who obey.
his rules and would turn outgreat and good men like my
father.
my father and my comrades arecertainly in hell, but I tell
you now they have eitheroverthrown the devil and are
ruling there themselves or theyhave escaped long since and they
(23:47):
are elsewhere.
And it is there, wherever theymay be, that I am bound.
I will go to no house where myfather is not welcome.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-202 (23:54):
And at that, Oisin Afena thanked
Patrick for his benevolence andbreathed his last and went to
find his friends.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (24:04):
Wow.
And that, debate goes on.
That argument of washington'ssympathic I think it really
elegantly illustrates that clashof competing belief systems,
Chris, doesn't it?
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (24:14):
It most definitely does.
I mean, you've got a scenariothere where the old is
justifying itself against thenew and the new sort of
struggles to justify itself fora stop.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (24:28):
I think as with many things Irish
Gothic, when you peel back thesurface a bit, there's so much
more to learn.
And we've found that every stepof the way.
And with St.
Patrick, there's so much morethan, jaunty leprechaun hats and
shillelaghs and shamrocks.
Have you any final
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2 (24:44):
Well, I definitely, I mean, we could
talk about and we touched on it.
A little bit earlier on, but ofcourse he died on.
The 17th of March, 461 A.
D.
And legend said that he's buriedoutside Down Cathedral in Down
Patrick.
At the highest part of thecathedral lies the grave of St.
Patrick.
(25:05):
Have you ever been there,Spence?
Have you seen the, have you seenthe grave, the big rock?
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (25:08):
I have actually been quite, quite
recently, Chris.
And even though.
I was moaning about how hard aclimb Slammish is.
actually quite a steep hill upto the church as well.
chris-patterson_7_11- (25:17):
certainly is.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (25:19):
it's a stunning place.
A fantastic visitor centre aswell.
So much
chris-patterson_7_11-20-2024 (25:23):
Oh yeah, that's reasonably, I mean
it's reasonably new and it's theone place in the world which
really holds the mostinformation about St.
Patrick.
If you want to know theinformation, that's the place to
go, that visitor center.
So, on his grave is a massivegranite stone marker.
And that was placed there onCathedral Hill in the early
1900s to protect the grave fromthe many pilgrims.
(25:44):
Because they were coming alongand chipping bits of the grave
away and taking it with them.
scooping the earth up.
So it was really eroding awaythat area.
So they had to stop that.
St.
Patrick was honoured as one ofthe most influential figures in
Irish history.
And of course, his feast day,which is March 17th, is
celebrated worldwide.
And that includes, Chicago, whoturned their rivers green.
(26:07):
Dublin, who has a St.
Patrick's Day march, as doesBelfast.
And basically, globally, whereeveryone lifts a pint at St.
Patrick on the 17th of March.
And I'm sure you do the same,Spence.
spence_7_11-20-2024_194121 (26:19):
I do, Chris, and now I'll be able
to, show off and drop a fewlittle tidbits of information
about St.
Patrick, which think it's fairto say most people maybe don't
know, so it's, uh, and we're solucky, Chris, to have these, as
I say, a few miles from here,there's the mountain, there's
Flemish, some miles in the otherdirection.
There's where he's buried.
There's the river where he droveout.
We're so, so lucky to have thisas part of our landscape.
(26:41):
But I'm sure Chris you'll beable to put up some photographs
and things onto the show docks.
To let folks from further afieldsee what we're talking about.
chris-patterson_7_11-20-20 (26:47):
Most definitely.
we'll get some stuff up thereand also Spence, after you've
had a few Guinnesses, you can goout with your big staff and,
beat down the pagans.
Because seemingly he was thescourge of the pagans.
that's pretty much St.
Patrick.
There's a few other stories, butif you need to find them, you
can look in the show notes andthere's plenty of links in there
that'll tell you the thousandsof stories that may be true and
(27:10):
may not be true.
chris-patterson_9_11-20-2024 (27:28):
So that, Spence, was St.
Patrick.
So you can put down your greenbeer and box back up your
shillelaghs.
Because next week we're back onthe monster trail the kelpie.
And just give me a brief whatthe
spence_9_11-20-2024_20000 (27:42):
Well, the Kilpie is one of those very
fearsome enigmatic creatures,Chris.
It's a shape shifting,Leviathan, I guess, some might
say, that sort of stalks theshores of lonely lakes and lochs
and rivers, looking for theunwary to pull into the depths.
chris-patterson_9_11-20-202 (27:56):
Oh, I think you've said enough.
You've said enough.
You've set me up for next week.
So make sure you tune in nextweek to hear more about that
shapeshifting monster.
But until then, goodnight folks.
spence_9_11-20-2024_200004 (28:09):
Bye, folks.
Looks like your story has foundyou.
I wish It were another.
But what's meant for you, won'tgo by you.
(28:30):
I'm sorry.
Ach, now.
No need to look so scared, eh?
Enjoy the fire.
Have a sop.
Sure.
Is it all just Irish Gothic?
All just Irish Gothic.
chris-patterson_10_10-17-20 (28:58):
You can find us at iris gothic pod
on Instagram or X, or if youwant to support us, please buy
us a coffee
spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 (29:06):
and look, while you're there, give
us a follow to keep up with allthings in the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
Send us any Irish myths,legends, stories that you'd like
us to delve into next.
chris-patterson_10_10-23-20 (29:17):
The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought
to you by Causeway Pictures.
It's hosted by Chris Pattersonand Spence Wright.
And was produced by RebeccaAlcorn.
All rights reserved.
chris-patterson_10_10-17- (29:31):
Check out our other podcast, Hostage
to the Devil, which delves intothe dark world of possession and
exorcism.
You can get it wherever you getyour podcasts.
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