December 24, 2024 • 21 mins
HO HO HO, NOLLAIG SHONA DUIT !
Chris and Spence have donned their red (or black) Santa suits to tuck into more than just a minced pie for Irish Gothic’s first Christmas special. We’re covering everything from Ireland’s festive ‘devil bird’, to the big man himself - Saint Nicholas. Listen in to hear toe-curling tales, even scarier than having your in-laws over for turkey. However you celebrate at this time of year, good tidings to all and we’ll be back in the New Year!
The Irish Gothic Podcast explores the origins of Irish Folk tales. myths and legends in all their dark, fantastical glory and how these vivid yarns continue to resonate across the world to this very day.
Join Hosts Chris Patterson and Spence Wright as they fuse their love for all thing's horror with a wellspring of Irish lore.
From the terrifying figure of the Dullahan to the origins of Halloween itself, if it’s a yarn you’re after, pull up a chair and let ‘Irish Gothic’ fill your ears.
Hosts: Chris Patterson & Spence Wright
Producer: Rebecca Alcorn
Production Company: Causeway Pictures
Bibliography:
Learn more about Ireland at Christmas here !
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
I know all the folks round thesearts and parts.
Can't say I know you.
Leastways.
Not yet.
But I dare say I know whatyou'll be wanting.
Some of the crack, maybe.
How we yarn with your sup, isit?
(00:39):
No harm in that.
Come on over.
Warm yourself, hmm?
I'll warn you though.
If it's the old Begara andBlarney shenanigans you're
after, you'll not hear them fromme.
Well, if such, like, pleasesyou, you sit on.
I'll fill your ears.
(01:01):
And see what story is meant foryou.
On this dark old night.
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:22):
I'm Chris
spencey-guest437_2_10-23-20 (01:23):
I'm Spence
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:24):
And this is the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (01:35):
It's Christmas! How you doing,
Spence?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (01:39):
ho, Chris, I'm doing very well, sir.
Looking forward to, doing verylittle over Christmas.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (01:44):
I mean, I think it'll just rain
this Christmas.
We don't get a white Christmas,we get a shade Christmas.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (01:51):
Just like all the ones we had before.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (01:52):
yeah.
Have you got all your, presentsin?
spence_2_12-04-2024_1934 (01:57):
Pretty much organised, buddy.
Yes, we actually go to my sisterin law's for Christmas dinner.
So that takes a little bit ofthe hassle out of it, you know.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024 (02:03):
it takes a bit of the pressure off.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:05):
So Boxing Day would be our day.
We don't leave the house.
I just flop around the house,you know.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (02:10):
Oh, Boxing Day?
You mean St.
Stephen's Day?
Or is there another name for itthere?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:14):
ha ha ha ha ha ha Or world famous
hooks.
Yeah, well, there is.
Fate would have it, Chris, thereis actually a rather peculiar,
maybe somewhat unsettlingtradition called Ren Day.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024 (02:26):
Is that Ren?
Andre is in the bird.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:28):
The Birds, Yep, and it takes place
in Ireland, specificallyIreland.
December 26th as you say,Stephens and Stevens Day, Boxing
Day.
It involves capturing a fakerin, a fake bird.
And placing it on the top of apole.
Now, days gone by and this wouldof actually been a real bird.
Rean's corpse stuck on a poleand paraded through the
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (02:48):
but Peta stepped in
spence_2_12-04-2024_1 (02:50):
Helistan?
chris-patterson_2_12-04- (02:51):
You're not doing not the real animals
anymore.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:55):
Very So the origins of Where do we
start?
You know because it sounds sobizarre.
Box and dable and chocolate.
I was There
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (03:03):
res, I mean, Why not a pigeon?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (03:07):
is some special significance the
Rean.
Sympathize with, and The ancientdruids would have believed that
they were like intermediariesbetween Orrworld and, the world
of the dead.
Druids would watch how wrensflew and by that way, they would
then try to protect the future.
So they've had a kind of aspecial place There's lots of
like specific stories aroundthem which might be why people
(03:32):
stick'em on a pole.
on Boxing Day.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (03:42):
Our rains, the birds that fly in
unison.
You get hundreds of them andthey fly.
I mean, it's one of the bridgesin Belfast that has all these,
maybe that's starlings.
Yeah, I'm thinking of starlings.
Sorry, I
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (03:54):
John could be sterlings.
What's that?
But what's that lovely word forwhen they do that?
Is it murmuring?
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (04:00):
yes, I think it is.
And
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (04:02):
Yeah.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (04:03):
and sort of sequence.
But anyway, we're off on adifferent bird here.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (04:06):
So yeah.
chris-patterson_2_1 (04:07):
ornithology at its best.
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (04:09):
Yeah,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024 (04:09):
an ornithology is the right word,
isn't it?
That's bird watching.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (04:13):
I do believe so.
chris-patterson_2_12-04 (04:14):
welcome to the ornithology podcast.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (04:24):
As I say, there's different theories,
man, so the Wren, we know theWren's special for mythological
reasons, but there's alsospecific stories, and not just
Irish stories, but certainly oneIrish story is that the Irish
locals, back in, I don't know,penal times, were planning to
ambush some sleeping Britishsoldiers, and just as they were
about to attack, the Wrenstarted to peck the soldiers
(04:44):
drums.
That woke the soldiers up, andthe attack was thwarted.
So the wren, then, was known asa bit of a treacherous tricksome
bird and became known as, theDevil's Bird.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (04:56):
Oh, the devil's bird.
That's a quire nickname.
There's other teals that recountthat like on St.
Stephens Day, the bird betrayedother Irish soldiers by alerting
Vikings to their presence withloud song and then another'cause
these rains can't seem to shutup that Rand's songs revealed
since Steven's hiding placeleading for.
Leading to his being stoned todeath.
spence_2_12-04-2024_1 (05:19):
Goodness, yeah, so actually responsible
for the death of a saint,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (05:22):
Yeah, well, I mean, here we go, the
devil's bird.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (05:25):
the Devil's Bird.
There's another connection withIrish mythology as well.
the, goddess of the other world,Clina.
she used to suggest men and seamaybe a little bit kelpie esque
(05:45):
there, the member then drown, aprotective charm could destroy
her, and forced her to turn intoa wr and as punishment for her
misdeeds, she was doomed.
Become a wr every Christmas anddie by human hand on rain day.
So look somewhere in the midstof all that, this ceremony,
this.
Past time, this tradition, wasborn of sticking a wreath on a
(06:09):
pole and parading it throughvillages and to houses on Boxing
Day.
I've
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (06:13):
Well, I guess it's from all that sort
of rich tapestry of myth andlegend that, rain days, and
indeed the rain boys, grew.
I mean, this unruly group ofmale children would be sent down
to hunt for a rain, disguisingthemselves blacking their faces.
and then tying the dead bird toa holly bush before breeding to
(06:36):
various households in theirvillage.
I mean, that all sounds very,most definitely Celtic, but it's
sort of Wicker Man, you know,sort of scenario there.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193 (06:50):
Krampus ceremonies.
chris-patterson_2_12-04 (06:51):
they're fantastic
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (06:52):
Oh my,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (06:53):
them
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (06:53):
they are unbelievable, folks.
If you get a chance, you know,you should go.
Not for the faint of heart, Imean, but it's incredible, the
detail, and it's like somethingout of a movie.
And this is up there, Chris,isn't it?
It's got that kind of Wicker Manmacabre feel.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (07:09):
I mean, the Krampus stuff that
you're talking about, I thinkit's sort of Eastern Europe and
they prayed.
and this is not dissimilar, towhat these boys did.
I mean, they would sing and playmusic at the doors and beg for
money, often being invited inlike for a few, a few bevies,
eventually they'd, bury the birdwith the coins to ward off the
bad luck.
However, Those who weren'tgenerous risked having the bird
(07:32):
buried at their property,bringing a full year of
misfortune.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193 (07:36):
doesn't it?
You know, that kind of Halloweenknocking on the doors.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (07:40):
it, can I get a penny for the guy
and any way to sort of beg moneyout of people because I mean
they're going to knock on yourdoor and they have a dead bird
tied to a holly bush.
I mean, you know, these days, ifyou look down your ring camera
and saw that you'd be phoningthe police.
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (07:56):
Well, the tradition As strong as it
was, it's maybe not as strongnow, but there are some folks
who have documented what it waslike there's a lady from
Limerick who recalled herchildhood in the fifties and the
sixties.
And I'm quoting this lady now,when she talked about the Renn
boys coming to their houses, shesaid, we were never ready for
them.
And they always arrived like aninvasion from an outside world.
You know, after all theexcitement and hustle and bustle
(08:18):
of Christmas, these young gangsof boys and young men, that was
never girls, always young boysand men, Chris, and they would
clatter up the yard on StStephen's Day and the whole
house would be caught off guardand the parents would adjust and
fitter and fluster about andthey would be delighted at the
spectacle, but this lady says,as children, we were overawed,
(08:40):
we were shy, but we were mostlyafraid.
It's a long way, I suppose, fromthat kind of cosy Christmas
scene when these rainboys came acalling.
this is maybe down in Limerick,and it's said that their sudden
appearance, even now, sheremembers how much of a shock it
was, and the flurry ofexcitement it caused when these
rainboys came calling.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (09:00):
I mean, Um, even when you think
about today, you know, as weobviously don't have rain boys
running about, but it's stillcelebrated in terms of, you
know, probably just beforeChristmas where children go
caroling sort of from door todoor.
Sometimes people get dressed upin older clothes, Victorian
maybe, or put coal in theirfaces.
(09:20):
Frowned upon these days to anextent, but more for fun than to
ward off bad luck.
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (09:26):
Yeah, it's funny you talk about the,
you know, black and the faces.
I remember a tradition we had asa kid on New Year's Eve.
It ties into those great bondswe have with Scotland.
The first footing, I
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (09:37):
No, I haven't heard of this one.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (09:38):
so the tradition is, it's a
Scottish tradition.
I don't know where my mum anddad call it from, you know,
turns out it was relevant to us,but I suppose it may be an
Ulster Scots thing.
But whoever was the dark hairedchild in the house, or dark
haired person in the house, wasto Step outside the house at
midnight, with rubbed coal ontheir cheeks, knock on the door
with a piece of coal, and youwere the first person to enter
(10:01):
the house on New Year's Eve, andI was the only dark haired
person in the house, so I got tofreeze me backside off as a
child, in the street, with a bitof coal.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (10:10):
I have to admit, I've never, I've
never heard that before, but itdoes, it does chime in with all
this bringing yourself goodluck.
And a lot of these sort of preeds and things were for good
harvest or to survive thewinter.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (10:22):
Yep, and as much as these traditions
have sadly died away, or as yousay they've evolved, maybe more
than died away, there are stillcounties across Ireland where
there are wren parades, muchmore sanitised, you know, no
real birds injured in any way,so counties Kerry, counties
Clare, Dublin, I think Dingle aswell has a big procession for
(10:43):
the wren boys to pay homage tothat tradition, that Irish
tradition.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (11:06):
Let me take you back maybe two days
before that to Christmas Eve andwe all know what happens on
Christmas Eve.
Our next little segment is aboutthe big man himself.
Santa Claus.
What links the frozen peaks ofthe North Pole to the rolling
green hills of Ireland, apartfrom the rain and the cold and
possible snow?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (11:27):
I couldn't, honestly Chris, when
you told me this, I couldn't, Ihonestly thought you were
winding me up.
You know, a story so perfect,magic, history, myth, and with a
wee bit of Christmas magic.
do you know what, I'm going tohave to let you say it,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (11:38):
You can take this to the bank.
Santa Claus is buried inIreland.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (11:44):
I think that's worth saying again,
Chris, because I'm sure peopleare going, I didn't hear him
correctly there.
I'm sure he just said SantaClaus is buried in Ireland.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (11:50):
Santa Claus, Saint Nick, whatever you
want to call him.
He's buried in Ireland.
And I know there's probably aquestion mark going through your
head right now, but, you know,let us explain.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (12:08):
So, the story goes that before he
became that, jolly rotund figurewe all love sliding down the
chimney with presents and gifts.
Well, I mean, most folks knowthat Santa Claus was based on
Saint Nicholas, a 4th centuryChristian bishop from Myra, and
what I think is Turkey, yeah?
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (12:26):
yeah, Turkey, a sort of red suited
figure.
He actually, I think, woreblack.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (12:30):
Oh,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (12:30):
I think the red suit came from
Coca Cola in the 1920s.
spence_2_12-04-2024_1934 (12:35):
you're joking.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (12:36):
no, the real guy he wore black,
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (12:39):
like Johnny Cash.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (12:39):
like Johnny Cash, the man in black as
he strolled around Turkey.
I mean, one of the reasons thatSanta has that red and white
suit is because Coke found itdifficult selling its product
during the winter.
Because, of course, in thesummer you're thirsty and all
that.
In the winter, of course, peoplewant hot drinks.
They don't want tins of Coke orbottles of Coke.
(13:01):
So they had to come up with anidea and the idea they came up
with was.
Santa Claus, but in a red andwhite suit, which obviously was
the coke colors and at Christmasholidays are common.
Santa's coming on and you stillsee it today with the coke lorry
that travels around the country.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (13:19):
Ha ha! I did not know that about
the coke.
Well, I didn't know he wasburied in Ireland either, to be
fair.
Saint Nicholas as in the saint,his kindness, his generosity, as
you say, Chris, it was the stuffof legend.
It inspired Sinterklaas, whichis a Dutch tradition, and you
can see how that morphed andbecame Santa Claus.
And then after his death onDecember 6th, 343 AD, his
(13:42):
remains were interred in Myra,in Turkey.
So, how do you got the Irelandcross?
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (13:47):
Well, here we go.
He was obviously in Turkey onhis holidays.
No, he was in Turkey interredand in the 12th century the
relics or the bones of SaintNicholas were reportedly stolen
during the Crusades andtransferred to Italy.
But here's where Ireland entersthe narrative.
According to one of the lesserknown but fiercely debated
(14:10):
tales, some of his remains werespirited away by French knights
and bought to Ireland.
The medieval village of Newton'sSharepoint, County
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (14:25):
Wow, wow.
Well, look, you know, there'sdefinitely a basis for Crusaders
and, French knights, you know,they loved a bit of, bone
plundering and a bit of, uh,rampaging and,
chris-patterson_2_12 (14:36):
everything that, everything that wasn't
tied down.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (14:39):
Why not?
Those would have been soughtafter.
relics remains of greatsignificance and there's
precedent for things getscattered all around the world.
We know about debate about thegreat marbles in the London
Museum these things happen, muchlater in history.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (14:54):
But also the cup of
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (14:55):
Yeah,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (14:57):
know, that was supposedly taken around
the world by, knights who hadcome across it during the
Crusades of Templars and boughtit back and decided to hide it.
And is it in Ireland?
Is it in England?
Is it in Scotland?
I guess we might find outfurther down the line in another
episode.
But, uh, back to the big man.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (15:19):
well they say that those knights
then, they erected a very modesttomb for Saint Nicholas on the
grounds of what is now a ruinedchurch in Kilkemmy.
And local lore there insiststhat this grave is marked with a
slab and on that slab there's acleric and two crusaders and
none other than that of SaintNicholas.
So, they believe it's there,it's marked in Kilkemmy.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (15:41):
Well, it said that the knights that
bought the relics to Irelandbought them because they wanted
to protect them from the chaosof the war in Europe.
Ireland, not only for itsremoteness, but also for its
reputation of the land of saintsand scholars.
A heaven for sacred treasures.
Just like we were saying thereabout the Holy Grail and things
like that.
(16:02):
It was definitely a place thatattracted the spiritual.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (16:07):
Yep, and I suppose with all these
stories, Chris.
You just want them to be true,you know, and certainly scholars
and historians have certainlydebated this and they've said
Skeptics who want to steal Santafrom the Irish have argued that
his remains are all accountedfor in Italy and where they are
venerated to this day.
Others say no, there's some inVenice Which claims the house of
(16:29):
his relics, but you know, we doknow that the Crusades were
chaotic times relics weredivided They were traded, they
were stolen.
It's not implausible Especiallyin Ireland, you know, this is a
land where myth and history doesfuse together.
And if there's no proof to sayotherwise, I'm happy to take it.
chris-patterson_2_12-04- (16:53):
Factor Folklore, the idea that Santa
Claus could be buried right hereon the island of Ireland
Kilkenny.
For Ireland.
It's just another chapter in itsrich myths and legends.
This is, after all, the land ofleprechauns, banshees, and tales
of Tír na nÓg.
importantly, it highlightsIreland's role as keeper of
(17:15):
ancient stories.
A sanctuary the sacred relics,and a place where the impossible
feels tantalisingly withinreach.
So, I could believe it.
spence_2_12-04-2024_1934 (17:26):
You're on the nice list.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (17:27):
I would hope so.
I would
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (17:29):
If you don't believe, you're not on
the nice list.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (17:32):
So, I mean, I, you know It comes
down to the spirit of St.
Nicholas, you know, whether St.
Nicholas lies in the rollinghills of Kilkenny, The crypts Of
Bari in Italy are somewhereentirely different.
His legacy transcends geography.
He's an embodiment ofgenerosity, kindness and simple
yet profound joy of giving.
(17:54):
I mean, that's what we do atChristmas.
We give.
People that we love and peoplethat we don't love, you know,
gifts and love and, it all comesback to this legend, I suppose,
of this one man.
spence_2_12-04-2024 (18:13):
Beautifully put, Chris.
I didn't realise you were sucha, a little Christmas elf at
heart, behind that cool, tough,Belfast exterior.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (18:23):
Well, here, have you ever been to
Newton?
Do you have a point?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (18:26):
No, but I tell you what, I'd love to
go.
I mean, it sounds, it justsounds magical.
I mean I haven't thought of evenreading up on it since we talked
about doing a story, you know?
So I thank anyone who does go,and we should put it on our
list, Chris.
Once I get Um it sounds like achallenge to step back in time.
You know, the village itselfsounds like it's sort of stood
still in time.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (18:43):
the podcast on the road.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (18:45):
I think it's going to have a bit
of a quiet beauty.
It'll have a lot of historicalintrigue.
Yeah, I feel like a little IrishGothic pilgrimage, and if we do
we'll definitely record therefor folks to soak up some of the
atmosphere and take some photos.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (18:59):
Well, one day we might take a
pilgrimage, but of course afteryour St.
Patrick's pilgrimage, I wouldn'tlike to interrupt that.
well, I guess that's Christmasspent.
So, let's hope that ourlisteners out there enjoy their
Christmas.
And, we're going to take sometime off over these couple of
weeks.
There will be some, new stuffcommon, which is the Irish
Gothic Bites, little.
(19:19):
two to five minute stories thatSpence and I have put together
just to take you through, butwe'll be back with the full
podcast, probably the beginningof February.
The bait should hold you over,but we're really looking forward
to the next batch of.
Big podcasts, aren't we?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (19:35):
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
And thanks for joining us folksthis year and just a very happy,
healthy, Merry Christmas to youand all of yours from all of us
here on the Irish Gothic team,Rebecca, Chris and myself.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (19:46):
And if you want to help us, you can
give us five stars wherever youlisten to your podcasts.
And you can also listen to thepodcasts over on YouTube.
Happy Christmas and we'll seeyou in the new year.
(20:07):
Looks like your story has foundyou.
I wish It were another.
But what's meant for you, won'tgo by you.
I'm sorry.
Ach, now.
(20:28):
No need to look so scared, eh?
Enjoy the fire.
Have a sop.
Sure.
Is it all just Irish Gothic?
All just Irish Gothic.
chris-patterson_10_10-17-20 (20:49):
You can find us at iris gothic pod
on Instagram or X, or if youwant to support us, please buy
us a coffee
spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 (20:57):
and look, while you're there, give
us a follow to keep up with allthings in the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
Send us any Irish myths,legends, stories that you'd like
us to delve into next.
chris-patterson_10_10-23-20 (21:06):
The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought
to you by Causeway Pictures.
It's hosted by Chris Pattersonand Spence Wright.
And was produced by RebeccaAlcorn.
All rights reserved.
chris-patterson_10_10-17- (21:21):
Check out our other podcast, Hostage
to the Devil, which delves intothe dark world of possession and
exorcism.
You can get it wherever you getyour podcasts.
I know all the folks round thesearts and parts.
Can't say I know you.
Leastways.
Not yet.
But I dare say I know whatyou'll be wanting.
Some of the crack, maybe.
How we yarn with your sup, isit?
(00:39):
No harm in that.
Come on over.
Warm yourself, hmm?
I'll warn you though.
If it's the old Begara andBlarney shenanigans you're
after, you'll not hear them fromme.
Well, if such, like, pleasesyou, you sit on.
I'll fill your ears.
(01:01):
And see what story is meant foryou.
On this dark old night.
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:22):
I'm Chris
spencey-guest437_2_10-23-20 (01:23):
I'm Spence
chris-patterson_2_10-23-202 (01:24):
And this is the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (01:35):
It's Christmas! How you doing,
Spence?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (01:39):
ho, Chris, I'm doing very well, sir.
Looking forward to, doing verylittle over Christmas.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (01:44):
I mean, I think it'll just rain
this Christmas.
We don't get a white Christmas,we get a shade Christmas.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (01:51):
Just like all the ones we had before.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (01:52):
yeah.
Have you got all your, presentsin?
spence_2_12-04-2024_1934 (01:57):
Pretty much organised, buddy.
Yes, we actually go to my sisterin law's for Christmas dinner.
So that takes a little bit ofthe hassle out of it, you know.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024 (02:03):
it takes a bit of the pressure off.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:05):
So Boxing Day would be our day.
We don't leave the house.
I just flop around the house,you know.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (02:10):
Oh, Boxing Day?
You mean St.
Stephen's Day?
Or is there another name for itthere?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:14):
ha ha ha ha ha ha Or world famous
hooks.
Yeah, well, there is.
Fate would have it, Chris, thereis actually a rather peculiar,
maybe somewhat unsettlingtradition called Ren Day.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024 (02:26):
Is that Ren?
Andre is in the bird.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:28):
The Birds, Yep, and it takes place
in Ireland, specificallyIreland.
December 26th as you say,Stephens and Stevens Day, Boxing
Day.
It involves capturing a fakerin, a fake bird.
And placing it on the top of apole.
Now, days gone by and this wouldof actually been a real bird.
Rean's corpse stuck on a poleand paraded through the
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (02:48):
but Peta stepped in
spence_2_12-04-2024_1 (02:50):
Helistan?
chris-patterson_2_12-04- (02:51):
You're not doing not the real animals
anymore.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (02:55):
Very So the origins of Where do we
start?
You know because it sounds sobizarre.
Box and dable and chocolate.
I was There
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (03:03):
res, I mean, Why not a pigeon?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (03:07):
is some special significance the
Rean.
Sympathize with, and The ancientdruids would have believed that
they were like intermediariesbetween Orrworld and, the world
of the dead.
Druids would watch how wrensflew and by that way, they would
then try to protect the future.
So they've had a kind of aspecial place There's lots of
like specific stories aroundthem which might be why people
(03:32):
stick'em on a pole.
on Boxing Day.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (03:42):
Our rains, the birds that fly in
unison.
You get hundreds of them andthey fly.
I mean, it's one of the bridgesin Belfast that has all these,
maybe that's starlings.
Yeah, I'm thinking of starlings.
Sorry, I
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (03:54):
John could be sterlings.
What's that?
But what's that lovely word forwhen they do that?
Is it murmuring?
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (04:00):
yes, I think it is.
And
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (04:02):
Yeah.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (04:03):
and sort of sequence.
But anyway, we're off on adifferent bird here.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (04:06):
So yeah.
chris-patterson_2_1 (04:07):
ornithology at its best.
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (04:09):
Yeah,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024 (04:09):
an ornithology is the right word,
isn't it?
That's bird watching.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (04:13):
I do believe so.
chris-patterson_2_12-04 (04:14):
welcome to the ornithology podcast.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (04:24):
As I say, there's different theories,
man, so the Wren, we know theWren's special for mythological
reasons, but there's alsospecific stories, and not just
Irish stories, but certainly oneIrish story is that the Irish
locals, back in, I don't know,penal times, were planning to
ambush some sleeping Britishsoldiers, and just as they were
about to attack, the Wrenstarted to peck the soldiers
(04:44):
drums.
That woke the soldiers up, andthe attack was thwarted.
So the wren, then, was known asa bit of a treacherous tricksome
bird and became known as, theDevil's Bird.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (04:56):
Oh, the devil's bird.
That's a quire nickname.
There's other teals that recountthat like on St.
Stephens Day, the bird betrayedother Irish soldiers by alerting
Vikings to their presence withloud song and then another'cause
these rains can't seem to shutup that Rand's songs revealed
since Steven's hiding placeleading for.
Leading to his being stoned todeath.
spence_2_12-04-2024_1 (05:19):
Goodness, yeah, so actually responsible
for the death of a saint,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (05:22):
Yeah, well, I mean, here we go, the
devil's bird.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (05:25):
the Devil's Bird.
There's another connection withIrish mythology as well.
the, goddess of the other world,Clina.
she used to suggest men and seamaybe a little bit kelpie esque
(05:45):
there, the member then drown, aprotective charm could destroy
her, and forced her to turn intoa wr and as punishment for her
misdeeds, she was doomed.
Become a wr every Christmas anddie by human hand on rain day.
So look somewhere in the midstof all that, this ceremony,
this.
Past time, this tradition, wasborn of sticking a wreath on a
(06:09):
pole and parading it throughvillages and to houses on Boxing
Day.
I've
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (06:13):
Well, I guess it's from all that sort
of rich tapestry of myth andlegend that, rain days, and
indeed the rain boys, grew.
I mean, this unruly group ofmale children would be sent down
to hunt for a rain, disguisingthemselves blacking their faces.
and then tying the dead bird toa holly bush before breeding to
(06:36):
various households in theirvillage.
I mean, that all sounds very,most definitely Celtic, but it's
sort of Wicker Man, you know,sort of scenario there.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193 (06:50):
Krampus ceremonies.
chris-patterson_2_12-04 (06:51):
they're fantastic
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (06:52):
Oh my,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (06:53):
them
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (06:53):
they are unbelievable, folks.
If you get a chance, you know,you should go.
Not for the faint of heart, Imean, but it's incredible, the
detail, and it's like somethingout of a movie.
And this is up there, Chris,isn't it?
It's got that kind of Wicker Manmacabre feel.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (07:09):
I mean, the Krampus stuff that
you're talking about, I thinkit's sort of Eastern Europe and
they prayed.
and this is not dissimilar, towhat these boys did.
I mean, they would sing and playmusic at the doors and beg for
money, often being invited inlike for a few, a few bevies,
eventually they'd, bury the birdwith the coins to ward off the
bad luck.
However, Those who weren'tgenerous risked having the bird
(07:32):
buried at their property,bringing a full year of
misfortune.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193 (07:36):
doesn't it?
You know, that kind of Halloweenknocking on the doors.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (07:40):
it, can I get a penny for the guy
and any way to sort of beg moneyout of people because I mean
they're going to knock on yourdoor and they have a dead bird
tied to a holly bush.
I mean, you know, these days, ifyou look down your ring camera
and saw that you'd be phoningthe police.
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (07:56):
Well, the tradition As strong as it
was, it's maybe not as strongnow, but there are some folks
who have documented what it waslike there's a lady from
Limerick who recalled herchildhood in the fifties and the
sixties.
And I'm quoting this lady now,when she talked about the Renn
boys coming to their houses, shesaid, we were never ready for
them.
And they always arrived like aninvasion from an outside world.
You know, after all theexcitement and hustle and bustle
(08:18):
of Christmas, these young gangsof boys and young men, that was
never girls, always young boysand men, Chris, and they would
clatter up the yard on StStephen's Day and the whole
house would be caught off guardand the parents would adjust and
fitter and fluster about andthey would be delighted at the
spectacle, but this lady says,as children, we were overawed,
(08:40):
we were shy, but we were mostlyafraid.
It's a long way, I suppose, fromthat kind of cosy Christmas
scene when these rainboys came acalling.
this is maybe down in Limerick,and it's said that their sudden
appearance, even now, sheremembers how much of a shock it
was, and the flurry ofexcitement it caused when these
rainboys came calling.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (09:00):
I mean, Um, even when you think
about today, you know, as weobviously don't have rain boys
running about, but it's stillcelebrated in terms of, you
know, probably just beforeChristmas where children go
caroling sort of from door todoor.
Sometimes people get dressed upin older clothes, Victorian
maybe, or put coal in theirfaces.
(09:20):
Frowned upon these days to anextent, but more for fun than to
ward off bad luck.
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (09:26):
Yeah, it's funny you talk about the,
you know, black and the faces.
I remember a tradition we had asa kid on New Year's Eve.
It ties into those great bondswe have with Scotland.
The first footing, I
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (09:37):
No, I haven't heard of this one.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (09:38):
so the tradition is, it's a
Scottish tradition.
I don't know where my mum anddad call it from, you know,
turns out it was relevant to us,but I suppose it may be an
Ulster Scots thing.
But whoever was the dark hairedchild in the house, or dark
haired person in the house, wasto Step outside the house at
midnight, with rubbed coal ontheir cheeks, knock on the door
with a piece of coal, and youwere the first person to enter
(10:01):
the house on New Year's Eve, andI was the only dark haired
person in the house, so I got tofreeze me backside off as a
child, in the street, with a bitof coal.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (10:10):
I have to admit, I've never, I've
never heard that before, but itdoes, it does chime in with all
this bringing yourself goodluck.
And a lot of these sort of preeds and things were for good
harvest or to survive thewinter.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (10:22):
Yep, and as much as these traditions
have sadly died away, or as yousay they've evolved, maybe more
than died away, there are stillcounties across Ireland where
there are wren parades, muchmore sanitised, you know, no
real birds injured in any way,so counties Kerry, counties
Clare, Dublin, I think Dingle aswell has a big procession for
(10:43):
the wren boys to pay homage tothat tradition, that Irish
tradition.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (11:06):
Let me take you back maybe two days
before that to Christmas Eve andwe all know what happens on
Christmas Eve.
Our next little segment is aboutthe big man himself.
Santa Claus.
What links the frozen peaks ofthe North Pole to the rolling
green hills of Ireland, apartfrom the rain and the cold and
possible snow?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (11:27):
I couldn't, honestly Chris, when
you told me this, I couldn't, Ihonestly thought you were
winding me up.
You know, a story so perfect,magic, history, myth, and with a
wee bit of Christmas magic.
do you know what, I'm going tohave to let you say it,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (11:38):
You can take this to the bank.
Santa Claus is buried inIreland.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (11:44):
I think that's worth saying again,
Chris, because I'm sure peopleare going, I didn't hear him
correctly there.
I'm sure he just said SantaClaus is buried in Ireland.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (11:50):
Santa Claus, Saint Nick, whatever you
want to call him.
He's buried in Ireland.
And I know there's probably aquestion mark going through your
head right now, but, you know,let us explain.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (12:08):
So, the story goes that before he
became that, jolly rotund figurewe all love sliding down the
chimney with presents and gifts.
Well, I mean, most folks knowthat Santa Claus was based on
Saint Nicholas, a 4th centuryChristian bishop from Myra, and
what I think is Turkey, yeah?
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (12:26):
yeah, Turkey, a sort of red suited
figure.
He actually, I think, woreblack.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (12:30):
Oh,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (12:30):
I think the red suit came from
Coca Cola in the 1920s.
spence_2_12-04-2024_1934 (12:35):
you're joking.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (12:36):
no, the real guy he wore black,
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (12:39):
like Johnny Cash.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-20 (12:39):
like Johnny Cash, the man in black as
he strolled around Turkey.
I mean, one of the reasons thatSanta has that red and white
suit is because Coke found itdifficult selling its product
during the winter.
Because, of course, in thesummer you're thirsty and all
that.
In the winter, of course, peoplewant hot drinks.
They don't want tins of Coke orbottles of Coke.
(13:01):
So they had to come up with anidea and the idea they came up
with was.
Santa Claus, but in a red andwhite suit, which obviously was
the coke colors and at Christmasholidays are common.
Santa's coming on and you stillsee it today with the coke lorry
that travels around the country.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (13:19):
Ha ha! I did not know that about
the coke.
Well, I didn't know he wasburied in Ireland either, to be
fair.
Saint Nicholas as in the saint,his kindness, his generosity, as
you say, Chris, it was the stuffof legend.
It inspired Sinterklaas, whichis a Dutch tradition, and you
can see how that morphed andbecame Santa Claus.
And then after his death onDecember 6th, 343 AD, his
(13:42):
remains were interred in Myra,in Turkey.
So, how do you got the Irelandcross?
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (13:47):
Well, here we go.
He was obviously in Turkey onhis holidays.
No, he was in Turkey interredand in the 12th century the
relics or the bones of SaintNicholas were reportedly stolen
during the Crusades andtransferred to Italy.
But here's where Ireland entersthe narrative.
According to one of the lesserknown but fiercely debated
(14:10):
tales, some of his remains werespirited away by French knights
and bought to Ireland.
The medieval village of Newton'sSharepoint, County
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (14:25):
Wow, wow.
Well, look, you know, there'sdefinitely a basis for Crusaders
and, French knights, you know,they loved a bit of, bone
plundering and a bit of, uh,rampaging and,
chris-patterson_2_12 (14:36):
everything that, everything that wasn't
tied down.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (14:39):
Why not?
Those would have been soughtafter.
relics remains of greatsignificance and there's
precedent for things getscattered all around the world.
We know about debate about thegreat marbles in the London
Museum these things happen, muchlater in history.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (14:54):
But also the cup of
spence_2_12-04-2024_19342 (14:55):
Yeah,
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (14:57):
know, that was supposedly taken around
the world by, knights who hadcome across it during the
Crusades of Templars and boughtit back and decided to hide it.
And is it in Ireland?
Is it in England?
Is it in Scotland?
I guess we might find outfurther down the line in another
episode.
But, uh, back to the big man.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (15:19):
well they say that those knights
then, they erected a very modesttomb for Saint Nicholas on the
grounds of what is now a ruinedchurch in Kilkemmy.
And local lore there insiststhat this grave is marked with a
slab and on that slab there's acleric and two crusaders and
none other than that of SaintNicholas.
So, they believe it's there,it's marked in Kilkemmy.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (15:41):
Well, it said that the knights that
bought the relics to Irelandbought them because they wanted
to protect them from the chaosof the war in Europe.
Ireland, not only for itsremoteness, but also for its
reputation of the land of saintsand scholars.
A heaven for sacred treasures.
Just like we were saying thereabout the Holy Grail and things
like that.
(16:02):
It was definitely a place thatattracted the spiritual.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (16:07):
Yep, and I suppose with all these
stories, Chris.
You just want them to be true,you know, and certainly scholars
and historians have certainlydebated this and they've said
Skeptics who want to steal Santafrom the Irish have argued that
his remains are all accountedfor in Italy and where they are
venerated to this day.
Others say no, there's some inVenice Which claims the house of
(16:29):
his relics, but you know, we doknow that the Crusades were
chaotic times relics weredivided They were traded, they
were stolen.
It's not implausible Especiallyin Ireland, you know, this is a
land where myth and history doesfuse together.
And if there's no proof to sayotherwise, I'm happy to take it.
chris-patterson_2_12-04- (16:53):
Factor Folklore, the idea that Santa
Claus could be buried right hereon the island of Ireland
Kilkenny.
For Ireland.
It's just another chapter in itsrich myths and legends.
This is, after all, the land ofleprechauns, banshees, and tales
of Tír na nÓg.
importantly, it highlightsIreland's role as keeper of
(17:15):
ancient stories.
A sanctuary the sacred relics,and a place where the impossible
feels tantalisingly withinreach.
So, I could believe it.
spence_2_12-04-2024_1934 (17:26):
You're on the nice list.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2024_ (17:27):
I would hope so.
I would
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (17:29):
If you don't believe, you're not on
the nice list.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (17:32):
So, I mean, I, you know It comes
down to the spirit of St.
Nicholas, you know, whether St.
Nicholas lies in the rollinghills of Kilkenny, The crypts Of
Bari in Italy are somewhereentirely different.
His legacy transcends geography.
He's an embodiment ofgenerosity, kindness and simple
yet profound joy of giving.
(17:54):
I mean, that's what we do atChristmas.
We give.
People that we love and peoplethat we don't love, you know,
gifts and love and, it all comesback to this legend, I suppose,
of this one man.
spence_2_12-04-2024 (18:13):
Beautifully put, Chris.
I didn't realise you were sucha, a little Christmas elf at
heart, behind that cool, tough,Belfast exterior.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (18:23):
Well, here, have you ever been to
Newton?
Do you have a point?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (18:26):
No, but I tell you what, I'd love to
go.
I mean, it sounds, it justsounds magical.
I mean I haven't thought of evenreading up on it since we talked
about doing a story, you know?
So I thank anyone who does go,and we should put it on our
list, Chris.
Once I get Um it sounds like achallenge to step back in time.
You know, the village itselfsounds like it's sort of stood
still in time.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (18:43):
the podcast on the road.
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (18:45):
I think it's going to have a bit
of a quiet beauty.
It'll have a lot of historicalintrigue.
Yeah, I feel like a little IrishGothic pilgrimage, and if we do
we'll definitely record therefor folks to soak up some of the
atmosphere and take some photos.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-2 (18:59):
Well, one day we might take a
pilgrimage, but of course afteryour St.
Patrick's pilgrimage, I wouldn'tlike to interrupt that.
well, I guess that's Christmasspent.
So, let's hope that ourlisteners out there enjoy their
Christmas.
And, we're going to take sometime off over these couple of
weeks.
There will be some, new stuffcommon, which is the Irish
Gothic Bites, little.
(19:19):
two to five minute stories thatSpence and I have put together
just to take you through, butwe'll be back with the full
podcast, probably the beginningof February.
The bait should hold you over,but we're really looking forward
to the next batch of.
Big podcasts, aren't we?
spence_2_12-04-2024_193420 (19:35):
Oh, absolutely.
Yes.
And thanks for joining us folksthis year and just a very happy,
healthy, Merry Christmas to youand all of yours from all of us
here on the Irish Gothic team,Rebecca, Chris and myself.
chris-patterson_2_12-04-202 (19:46):
And if you want to help us, you can
give us five stars wherever youlisten to your podcasts.
And you can also listen to thepodcasts over on YouTube.
Happy Christmas and we'll seeyou in the new year.
(20:07):
Looks like your story has foundyou.
I wish It were another.
But what's meant for you, won'tgo by you.
I'm sorry.
Ach, now.
(20:28):
No need to look so scared, eh?
Enjoy the fire.
Have a sop.
Sure.
Is it all just Irish Gothic?
All just Irish Gothic.
chris-patterson_10_10-17-20 (20:49):
You can find us at iris gothic pod
on Instagram or X, or if youwant to support us, please buy
us a coffee
spence_9_10-17-2024_205215 (20:57):
and look, while you're there, give
us a follow to keep up with allthings in the Irish Gothic
Podcast.
Send us any Irish myths,legends, stories that you'd like
us to delve into next.
chris-patterson_10_10-23-20 (21:06):
The Irish Gothic Podcast was brought
to you by Causeway Pictures.
It's hosted by Chris Pattersonand Spence Wright.
And was produced by RebeccaAlcorn.
All rights reserved.
chris-patterson_10_10-17- (21:21):
Check out our other podcast, Hostage
to the Devil, which delves intothe dark world of possession and
exorcism.
You can get it wherever you getyour podcasts.
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