May 27, 2025 • 19 mins
Ready to dive deep into the nitty-gritty, the good, the bad, and the downright stinky?
Join your favorite host Bob Sewell and civil litigation maestro, Marshall Hunt, as we take you on a wild journey through the unexpected and surprisingly compelling world of...you guessed it...dog poop!
In this episode, we're not just talking sh*t, we're discussing the real legal ramifications tied to those little brown 'presents' left behind by your favorite furry friends.
Can you sue your neighbor when his pet soils your lawn repeatedly? Can you be arrested for your pet's waste?
Together, we'll scoop up the facts about how Arizona is taking a firm stance against poo-littering pet parents. Don't know your obligations when your pooch poops? We've got you covered, as we 'doggie bag' all the need-to-know details, including the hefty fines that might be hiding in those not-so-secret deposits.
But it's not all bad news and 'dirty' talk; we're also digging into the exemptions for those with disabilities. We'll explore the responsibilities and rights of service animal owners in our canine-caring community.
Don't let the subject matter fool you - this isn't just a stinky situation, it's a fascinating exploration into the intersection of pets, law, and civic duties. So, leash up your curiosity, fetch your headphones, and let's get ready to roll in some seriously intriguing insights!
Grab your poop bags, folks! It's time to take a walk on the wild (and wonderfully woofy) side of pet law in Arizona. Hold your noses - it's going to be an informative, engaging, and surprisingly fun ride! So, sit back, relax, and get ready to get the 'scoop' on the legalities of dog poop. Trust us, this is one conversation you won't want to 'leave behind'!
This idea was provided by a subscriber! Thank you, N.J.!
*** Listeners please note…the show makes reference to a Supreme Court case involving a dog toy…that is labeled as dog poo…which prompted a trademark infringement lawsuit from Jack Daniel’s. (Give this show a listen…you’ll understand!!!) Our point was that this subject can get so weighty the nations highest court is not above dealing with it. We didn’t tackle the trademark law nuance, but if you’re interested…our friends at the Wilson Sonsini law firm have the goods here. The case was decided a couple of days after our recording. A bad verdict for the doo doo folks: https://info.wsgr.com/index.php/email/emailWebview?md_id=15013
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Bob Sewell (00:00):
It's a phrase from popular movies.
It's also a question that comesup in our daily life.
The question is is that evenlegal?
We talk about the things thatdrive you crazy, the things you
won't believe and the things youneed to know and understand.
I'm attorney Bob Sewell andthis is the podcast.
Is That Even Legal?
(00:20):
Let's get started.
Today's guest on the show isMarshall Hunt.
Marshall Hunt is an expert incivil litigation and commercial
litigation and a good friend ofmine.
Marshall, thanks for coming onthe show.
I had you on here todaybecause you and
(00:45):
I.
We get together and when we gettogether, we talk a lot of well
sh*t.
You know what we're talkingabout.
We just talk a lot.
I'm pissed about something sh*t.
Yeah, i am.
Actually I am, and I'm pissedabout something.
What I'm upset about is allthese Karens out there in the
(01:10):
world trying to tell me what todo.
It's upsetting to me.
I have a dog and my dog likesto do what dogs do and wants a
crap wherever it wants a crap,and I'm perfectly okay with that
.
I mean, it's a dog, this isAmerica, this is America.
Right, i'm gonna land it thefree, and if my dog wants a crap
(01:31):
on my neighbor's lawn or out inthe park, let it do it.
But there's all these peopletrying to tell me no, is that
even legal?
Marshall Hunt (01:46):
Short answer.
You're in the wrong here, bob.
Bob Sewell (01:50):
No way.
Marshall Hunt (01:53):
You'd be surprised, i guess, how much dog
I'm gonna go ahead and say poop, waste, feces.
The cases and the statutes thatare out there in Arizona use
those three terms.
I'd say They don't go for the Sword there.
But most of actually Arizonacities, counties have some sort
(02:14):
of dog waste regulation thatusually requires you to pick it
up immediately, dispose of it,leaving it out to your
free-range dog generally notlegal.
Bob Sewell (02:28):
But why do they even care?
I mean serious.
Why do they care?
Because here in Arizona the sunis blazing hot and the dog
craps out there and it dries outin like 10 seconds, because
everything in the sun is dryingout like this in Arizona And
then someone will come by andmow it up, and who cares?
Marshall Hunt (02:50):
right, i hear what you're saying but I'm not a
scientist.
But from what I understand, dogpoop can actually be a
transmitter of quite a fewdiseases.
I've got a list here.
Let's see if I can pronouncesome Cryptosporidium don't know
what that one is.
Hookworms that sounds terrible.
Tapeworms I've heard of thoseGiardia, coli, Salmonella the
(03:11):
parade of horribles goes on.
But yeah no different, frankly,than if we as humans were going
around relieving ourselves inevery which way.
I don't think we like that.
Dogs same idea, unsanitarycarriers of diseases, and I
would say in Arizona, with theheat, probably worse than other
places because it attractsinsects, it can be a general
(03:33):
nuisance, smell, unsightly, orat least in the democratic
process that's what we'vedecided.
Bob Sewell (03:40):
So what are these?
I mean, we know it's a big deal.
No, not at all serious, it is abig deal.
There's 77 million dogs inAmerica, or estimated right, and
in Arizona there's 43% ofhouseholds that have a dog, so
that's a lot.
I mean, what do we get?
7.5 million, 8 millionsomewhere there in Arizona, a
large proportion of those withtwo dogs or three dogs.
Marshall Hunt (04:03):
So I mean we're talking about millions of dogs,
probably just in Arizona.
Bob Sewell (04:07):
So it could.
if everyone did what I wassuggesting, we'd have a real
problem.
So what are the cities actuallymaking us do?
Yeah, no-transcript.
Marshall Hunt (04:18):
I looked up several different city
ordinances.
Most of the major cities inArizona have them.
They're actually relatively new.
As I was reading up, you canfind news articles from a simple
Google search of some of thecity's passing laws in, say, the
late 90s, early 2000s.
But here's an example.
(04:39):
Let's say Tucson, are southernneighbors down there in Arizona.
Their city code, section 4-102,says it shall be unlawful for
the owner or person havingcustody of any dog to fail
immediately to move and disposeof, in a sanitary matter, any
solid waste deposited by suchdog on public property or
deposited on private propertywithout the consent of the
person in control of theproperty.
(05:00):
Now that part always made melaugh because I don't know who
is consenting to other peoplehaving their dogs poop on their
property.
I don't know why they had thatcaveat in there.
But this section but here's aninteresting also exception,
maybe this is your loophole thatyou can go for if you want to
get around it The section shallnot apply to blind persons,
(05:23):
persons with mobilitydisabilities or police officers
or other law enforcementofficers accompanying by police
dogs while on emergency.
So I don't think any of thoseapply to you but, i, thought it
was sort of interesting thatthey wanted to bake in.
So it makes some sense.
Obviously a blind person isgoing to be much more difficult
for them.
People with disabilities may bedifficult to reach down and get
(05:45):
the waste.
and then police officers theywant to not interfere with their
official duties, so misdemeanor, in most cases civil fines,
$150 in Tucson.
Bob Sewell (05:56):
So I pick it up, i put it in a bag, that's it.
That's all I got to do.
Marshall Hunt (05:59):
Throw it away in your normal trash can.
Actually, again, as I wasreading up, i thought it was
sort of funny that MaricopaCounty, where we live, has some
official notices that they'veput out that made sure everyone
knows that Dog Poop can beflushed down the toilet if you
want to.
There's no reason not to dothat according to the folks over
(06:20):
at Maricopa County.
But yeah, put it in your normaltrash goes to the normal
landfill but is disposed of inthat way, rather than leaving it
out in an unsightly way, i'm ona trail, right.
Bob Sewell (06:32):
I'm out hiking around on a you know.
let's say I'm in a city, one ofthese giant city parks we have
out here in the southwest, andI'm on one of these trails.
I mean the dog's in the naturalenvironment, right?
Marshall Hunt (06:48):
Yeah, you still got to pick it up.
Maricopa County, for instance,requires similar dog disposal
rules in all of their city parks.
It makes me think of there's anold Jerry Seinfeld bit where he
says something like if alienscame here, you know people from
another planet, who would theydecide are the sort of leaders
(07:09):
on planet earth?
You know?
you see two life forms.
One's going around making poopand one's picking it up and
carrying it around.
Who's in charge here?
Obviously the dogs.
They're leading us around bythese leashes.
So, yeah, even on a trail whereyou might have to carry it for
a couple of miles, that's them'sthe breaks.
(07:30):
You got to do it if you want tobring the dog.
So you know the funny thing isabout.
Bob Sewell (07:35):
The subject is how are they going to know, i mean,
if I take my dog out on one ofthese?
you know, go to the park or goout on the trail or something
like that, and no one's lookinghow?
Marshall Hunt (07:47):
are they going to ?
Bob Sewell (07:47):
know it's me.
Marshall Hunt (07:49):
You know I can't speak for the trail, but I was
surprised to find that I wasdoing my very rigorous
preparation for this topic.
There are some services outthere that will actually take
DNA samples from dog poop, getsome unique markers from that so
they can associate a specificdog to a specific owner.
(08:12):
It's mostly used by, say,apartment complexes where
there's lots of people, lots ofdogs in a small space, and they
will actually, you know, findthe poop, send it for sampling.
You know I, the article I readfrom eight years ago, said it
was $60 a test.
You know, actually the fountainhead, an apartment complex in
(08:33):
Tempe where we work, apparently,you know, made the news briefly
in the mid 2010s for for fordoing this.
but they'll pick up the poop,send it out for a sample,
confirm that it's your dog and,you know, find you, you know, in
the apartment complex,potentially even take, kick you
out if you're just a serialoffender here.
So there I laughed at the.
(08:54):
the main player that I saw, iguess, was poo Prince.
It's the main player in thisarena.
Bob Sewell (08:59):
It is, it is.
it is annoying when you have aneighbor, and I had this
neighbor and he would just lethis dog do his thing, and it was
even in his backyard and itjust would.
you know, in today's day andage we don't have a back 40.
We have a tiny little.
yeah, a lot lot, and I wish Ihad a yacht, but I had a.
(09:21):
you know, you have a tiny lot,and so the, the smells would
waft over.
Can I do something about that?
Marshall Hunt (09:31):
Yeah, it was actually.
uh, in addition to some ofthose city ordinances that
require you to pick up your dogpoop, I know at least Tempe that
I read for instance, also hasordinances against allowing what
they deemed excessive animalwaste to build up in your yard
Uh, such that it's not securelyprotected from insects and the
(09:52):
elements.
That was their concern.
So if you want to be the uhaforementioned Karen and report
your neighbor to code complianceand Tempe, they they might do
something about it.
I think they've got longpriority lists from that.
but you know, even even shortof trying to rely on overworked
code compliance officers at yourlocal municipality, there are
(10:12):
instances occasionally of uhlawsuits civil lawsuits even
being filed for for dog poopissues.
Bob Sewell (10:19):
You know, i I've I've heard of these lawsuits and
I have known uh, you knowattorneys who have engaged in
these lawsuits for nuisanceissues, and people get
passionate about them.
Marshall Hunt (10:32):
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, i again really
rigorous research when I wastrying to pull some of these
cases.
But you know things I read, forinstance, uh, you go really Big
level.
For instance, there was a classaction lawsuit in California
just recently, in 2021, againstthe owner and manager of an
(10:54):
apartment complex that failed toclean up dog poop.
The case that I read on thatsubject was not really about the
merits of that claim andwhether it could move forward.
It was more about proceduralissues related to class actions.
But it was allowed to goforward, at least from the stage
that the decision was renderedfrom.
So you definitely, if you're aproperty owner, apartment
(11:15):
complex owner, watch out forthat one.
Bob Sewell (11:17):
And people get annoyed at their neighbors and
they're willing to fight overthis.
And they fight, fight, fightbecause a neighbor's dog comes
over and craps on their lawnevery day, or whatever the case
may be, and it really getspeople perturbed.
Marshall Hunt (11:35):
The best case I read about that was a 2014
Toronto case Moreland Jones vsTaric And everything about the
decision was funny to read and Ithink the law clerks and the
judge probably had fun writingit.
But we had an oil executive onone side, a psychiatrist on the
other side.
They really don't like eachother.
The psychiatrist was lettinghis dog urinate in the oil
(11:57):
executives yard.
That psychiatrist in turn wastaking pictures of the oil
executives dog pooping in thenearby park.
They're filming each other,they sue each other, they
litigate it, go to themattresses on this one.
They're really fighting thetooth and nail.
And in the end, after all thiswork, the judge's conclusion I
(12:24):
had to write it down because itmade me laugh as a lawyer quote
there is no serious issue to betried in this action And
dismissed.
The case denied fees to bothsides.
I think that's probably how thejudge decided.
He could sort of punish bothsides.
A pox on both of you.
But yeah, the judge wasn'thappy about litigating that
issue, but some people take itvery seriously.
Bob Sewell (12:45):
But when it is a serious health and safety issue
and it can become that you couldbring nuisance losses You could
to enjoy people from repeatoffending And it can affect
people's health, affect people'swell-being.
It can become problematic withthe smells and the sanitation,
(13:08):
But, yeah, we can bring civilactions to enjoying people from
this type of stuff.
What about service animals?
Marshall Hunt (13:16):
Yeah, service animals are.
You would think that therewould be some type of they would
be exempt or they wouldn'treally apply.
But I don't have a lot ofpersonal experience in this area
but from reading the laws on itthey do actually anticipate
that service animals like anyother dogs probably more so than
most dogs, since they have sortof a special legal status in
(13:37):
Arizona and around the countrythat they also are expected to
be housebroken or not berelieving themselves in public
places.
And actually Arizona at leastlists a few reasons why a public
establishment could refuse aservice animal in their
establishment, one of which wasif the animal is not housebroken
(13:59):
.
I don't know how you know thatin the first instances, but the
second, that the dog lays thewaste in your local corner shop,
i guess you could trespass thedog and his owner and keep them
out forever.
Also, you got to watch out forthe service animals.
I didn't realize again as I wasreading this, that service
animals in Arizona can be eitherdogs or miniature horses.
Bob Sewell (14:21):
Miniature horses really.
Marshall Hunt (14:22):
It's written into the law, service animals can be
dogs or miniature horses.
I would really hope that yourhorse was housebroken, because
you don't want that horse comingin and not being housebroken in
your grocery store.
Bob Sewell (14:35):
Dude, I'm going to get myself a service horse.
That would be rad.
How far can we take this?
How far?
What is the furthest anyone'staken?
one of these sh*t stories?
Marshall Hunt (14:49):
Well, it's slightly different but relevant,
i guess, to the dog poopdiscussion.
There's a case in front of theUS Supreme Court right now
that's dog poop related.
It's more of a trademark case.
It's already been argued.
It hasn't been decided yet.
Jack Daniels obviouslyAmerica's biggest whiskey
manufacturer and seller filed atrademark lawsuit against
(15:13):
actually a local Arizona companywho makes sort of Oh look, you
do not mess around with Arizonacompanies.
So they make sort of noveltytoys I think specifically
novelty dog toys but they madeone that is made to sort of look
like the classic iconic JackDaniels whiskey bottle, but
(15:35):
instead of Jack Daniels theywrote on the bottle Bad Spaniels
.
Instead of 40% proof, theywrote that it's 43% poo and 100%
smelly.
Instead of being made from oldnumber seven Tennessee sour mash
(15:57):
whiskey, they said it's oldnumber two on your Tennessee
carpet.
These are the really highbrowjokes that they're making on
this story.
I don't think the justices wereparticularly amused by it.
From what I've read, i can'tbelieve they.
Bob Sewell (16:15):
Honestly, I can't believe they took up the subject
.
Marshall Hunt (16:18):
Well, yeah, so it's interesting again, not a
trademark expert from what Iread.
So the Jack Daniels won at thetrial level probably would have
died there, except the toycompany appealed to the Ninth
Circuit and Ninth Circuitoverruled by applying this sort
of unique test for a trademarkinfringement.
(16:40):
That's usually applied in amore creative space, like movies
, art, things like that that aretruly viewed as having some
type of artistic merit.
So most of the discussion atthe Supreme Court level is what
tests should we apply to thistype of dispute and did the
Ninth Circuit get it wrong inapplying this unique exception
(17:00):
to the normal trademark analysis?
There you go.
I did laugh that.
I think the attorney for JackDaniels will probably always
have the war story that she leda oral argument at the Supreme
Court by saying this caseinvolves a dog toy that copies
Jack Daniels' trademark andtrade dress and associates its
(17:21):
whiskey with dog poop.
That was her opening statement.
Bob Sewell (17:25):
Okay, marshall, let's just sum this up, because
we've had a lot of fun, we'vemade a lot of jokes, but it is,
in the end of the day, a serioussubject.
If I have a dog, i got to pickup the stuff, i got to pick up
the poop And if I don't, whathappens?
Marshall Hunt (17:41):
Yeah, we mentioned some of those city
codes.
I imagine most places aroundthe country are similar
generally viewed as civilinfraction subject to fines.
Tucson, we mentioned before$150 fine.
Phoenix can be as low as 100,but as high as 2,500.
So I imagine, if you're again aserial offender right And in
(18:02):
extreme cases can be prosecutedas a misdemeanor.
So I doubt.
I'm not aware that it's everhappened, but you got to watch
out and mostly you want to be agood neighbor.
Bob Sewell (18:13):
Right, and if you're not a good neighbor, you could
potentially expect nuisancelawsuits and injunctions against
you And, theoretically, in somecases, your apartment complex
might throw you out.
Yeah, yeah.
So, marshall, thanks for comingon the show.
All right, no problem.
Thanks, bob.
Thanks for listening too.
Is that even legal?
Remember this isn't legaladvice.
(18:34):
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attorney.
Remember that we're fun, we'relovable and we are here to help
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To my listeners in 62 countriesacross the world.
If you have something you wantto explore, email us at
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(18:55):
for this podcast on yourfavorite podcast forum.
See you next time.
It's a phrase from popular movies.
It's also a question that comesup in our daily life.
The question is is that evenlegal?
We talk about the things thatdrive you crazy, the things you
won't believe and the things youneed to know and understand.
I'm attorney Bob Sewell andthis is the podcast.
Is That Even Legal?
(00:20):
Let's get started.
Today's guest on the show isMarshall Hunt.
Marshall Hunt is an expert incivil litigation and commercial
litigation and a good friend ofmine.
Marshall, thanks for coming onthe show.
I had you on here todaybecause you and
(00:45):
I.
We get together and when we gettogether, we talk a lot of well
sh*t.
You know what we're talkingabout.
We just talk a lot.
I'm pissed about something sh*t.
Yeah, i am.
Actually I am, and I'm pissedabout something.
What I'm upset about is allthese Karens out there in the
(01:10):
world trying to tell me what todo.
It's upsetting to me.
I have a dog and my dog likesto do what dogs do and wants a
crap wherever it wants a crap,and I'm perfectly okay with that
.
I mean, it's a dog, this isAmerica, this is America.
Right, i'm gonna land it thefree, and if my dog wants a crap
(01:31):
on my neighbor's lawn or out inthe park, let it do it.
But there's all these peopletrying to tell me no, is that
even legal?
Marshall Hunt (01:46):
Short answer.
You're in the wrong here, bob.
Bob Sewell (01:50):
No way.
Marshall Hunt (01:53):
You'd be surprised, i guess, how much dog
I'm gonna go ahead and say poop, waste, feces.
The cases and the statutes thatare out there in Arizona use
those three terms.
I'd say They don't go for the Sword there.
But most of actually Arizonacities, counties have some sort
(02:14):
of dog waste regulation thatusually requires you to pick it
up immediately, dispose of it,leaving it out to your
free-range dog generally notlegal.
Bob Sewell (02:28):
But why do they even care?
I mean serious.
Why do they care?
Because here in Arizona the sunis blazing hot and the dog
craps out there and it dries outin like 10 seconds, because
everything in the sun is dryingout like this in Arizona And
then someone will come by andmow it up, and who cares?
Marshall Hunt (02:50):
right, i hear what you're saying but I'm not a
scientist.
But from what I understand, dogpoop can actually be a
transmitter of quite a fewdiseases.
I've got a list here.
Let's see if I can pronouncesome Cryptosporidium don't know
what that one is.
Hookworms that sounds terrible.
Tapeworms I've heard of thoseGiardia, coli, Salmonella the
(03:11):
parade of horribles goes on.
But yeah no different, frankly,than if we as humans were going
around relieving ourselves inevery which way.
I don't think we like that.
Dogs same idea, unsanitarycarriers of diseases, and I
would say in Arizona, with theheat, probably worse than other
places because it attractsinsects, it can be a general
(03:33):
nuisance, smell, unsightly, orat least in the democratic
process that's what we'vedecided.
Bob Sewell (03:40):
So what are these?
I mean, we know it's a big deal.
No, not at all serious, it is abig deal.
There's 77 million dogs inAmerica, or estimated right, and
in Arizona there's 43% ofhouseholds that have a dog, so
that's a lot.
I mean, what do we get?
7.5 million, 8 millionsomewhere there in Arizona, a
large proportion of those withtwo dogs or three dogs.
Marshall Hunt (04:03):
So I mean we're talking about millions of dogs,
probably just in Arizona.
Bob Sewell (04:07):
So it could.
if everyone did what I wassuggesting, we'd have a real
problem.
So what are the cities actuallymaking us do?
Yeah, no-transcript.
Marshall Hunt (04:18):
I looked up several different city
ordinances.
Most of the major cities inArizona have them.
They're actually relatively new.
As I was reading up, you canfind news articles from a simple
Google search of some of thecity's passing laws in, say, the
late 90s, early 2000s.
But here's an example.
(04:39):
Let's say Tucson, are southernneighbors down there in Arizona.
Their city code, section 4-102,says it shall be unlawful for
the owner or person havingcustody of any dog to fail
immediately to move and disposeof, in a sanitary matter, any
solid waste deposited by suchdog on public property or
deposited on private propertywithout the consent of the
person in control of theproperty.
(05:00):
Now that part always made melaugh because I don't know who
is consenting to other peoplehaving their dogs poop on their
property.
I don't know why they had thatcaveat in there.
But this section but here's aninteresting also exception,
maybe this is your loophole thatyou can go for if you want to
get around it The section shallnot apply to blind persons,
(05:23):
persons with mobilitydisabilities or police officers
or other law enforcementofficers accompanying by police
dogs while on emergency.
So I don't think any of thoseapply to you but, i, thought it
was sort of interesting thatthey wanted to bake in.
So it makes some sense.
Obviously a blind person isgoing to be much more difficult
for them.
People with disabilities may bedifficult to reach down and get
(05:45):
the waste.
and then police officers theywant to not interfere with their
official duties, so misdemeanor, in most cases civil fines,
$150 in Tucson.
Bob Sewell (05:56):
So I pick it up, i put it in a bag, that's it.
That's all I got to do.
Marshall Hunt (05:59):
Throw it away in your normal trash can.
Actually, again, as I wasreading up, i thought it was
sort of funny that MaricopaCounty, where we live, has some
official notices that they'veput out that made sure everyone
knows that Dog Poop can beflushed down the toilet if you
want to.
There's no reason not to dothat according to the folks over
(06:20):
at Maricopa County.
But yeah, put it in your normaltrash goes to the normal
landfill but is disposed of inthat way, rather than leaving it
out in an unsightly way, i'm ona trail, right.
Bob Sewell (06:32):
I'm out hiking around on a you know.
let's say I'm in a city, one ofthese giant city parks we have
out here in the southwest, andI'm on one of these trails.
I mean the dog's in the naturalenvironment, right?
Marshall Hunt (06:48):
Yeah, you still got to pick it up.
Maricopa County, for instance,requires similar dog disposal
rules in all of their city parks.
It makes me think of there's anold Jerry Seinfeld bit where he
says something like if alienscame here, you know people from
another planet, who would theydecide are the sort of leaders
(07:09):
on planet earth?
You know?
you see two life forms.
One's going around making poopand one's picking it up and
carrying it around.
Who's in charge here?
Obviously the dogs.
They're leading us around bythese leashes.
So, yeah, even on a trail whereyou might have to carry it for
a couple of miles, that's them'sthe breaks.
(07:30):
You got to do it if you want tobring the dog.
So you know the funny thing isabout.
Bob Sewell (07:35):
The subject is how are they going to know, i mean,
if I take my dog out on one ofthese?
you know, go to the park or goout on the trail or something
like that, and no one's lookinghow?
Marshall Hunt (07:47):
are they going to ?
Bob Sewell (07:47):
know it's me.
Marshall Hunt (07:49):
You know I can't speak for the trail, but I was
surprised to find that I wasdoing my very rigorous
preparation for this topic.
There are some services outthere that will actually take
DNA samples from dog poop, getsome unique markers from that so
they can associate a specificdog to a specific owner.
(08:12):
It's mostly used by, say,apartment complexes where
there's lots of people, lots ofdogs in a small space, and they
will actually, you know, findthe poop, send it for sampling.
You know I, the article I readfrom eight years ago, said it
was $60 a test.
You know, actually the fountainhead, an apartment complex in
(08:33):
Tempe where we work, apparently,you know, made the news briefly
in the mid 2010s for for fordoing this.
but they'll pick up the poop,send it out for a sample,
confirm that it's your dog and,you know, find you, you know, in
the apartment complex,potentially even take, kick you
out if you're just a serialoffender here.
So there I laughed at the.
(08:54):
the main player that I saw, iguess, was poo Prince.
It's the main player in thisarena.
Bob Sewell (08:59):
It is, it is.
it is annoying when you have aneighbor, and I had this
neighbor and he would just lethis dog do his thing, and it was
even in his backyard and itjust would.
you know, in today's day andage we don't have a back 40.
We have a tiny little.
yeah, a lot lot, and I wish Ihad a yacht, but I had a.
(09:21):
you know, you have a tiny lot,and so the, the smells would
waft over.
Can I do something about that?
Marshall Hunt (09:31):
Yeah, it was actually.
uh, in addition to some ofthose city ordinances that
require you to pick up your dogpoop, I know at least Tempe that
I read for instance, also hasordinances against allowing what
they deemed excessive animalwaste to build up in your yard
Uh, such that it's not securelyprotected from insects and the
(09:52):
elements.
That was their concern.
So if you want to be the uhaforementioned Karen and report
your neighbor to code complianceand Tempe, they they might do
something about it.
I think they've got longpriority lists from that.
but you know, even even shortof trying to rely on overworked
code compliance officers at yourlocal municipality, there are
(10:12):
instances occasionally of uhlawsuits civil lawsuits even
being filed for for dog poopissues.
Bob Sewell (10:19):
You know, i I've I've heard of these lawsuits and
I have known uh, you knowattorneys who have engaged in
these lawsuits for nuisanceissues, and people get
passionate about them.
Marshall Hunt (10:32):
Yeah, it's, uh, you know, i again really
rigorous research when I wastrying to pull some of these
cases.
But you know things I read, forinstance, uh, you go really Big
level.
For instance, there was a classaction lawsuit in California
just recently, in 2021, againstthe owner and manager of an
(10:54):
apartment complex that failed toclean up dog poop.
The case that I read on thatsubject was not really about the
merits of that claim andwhether it could move forward.
It was more about proceduralissues related to class actions.
But it was allowed to goforward, at least from the stage
that the decision was renderedfrom.
So you definitely, if you're aproperty owner, apartment
(11:15):
complex owner, watch out forthat one.
Bob Sewell (11:17):
And people get annoyed at their neighbors and
they're willing to fight overthis.
And they fight, fight, fightbecause a neighbor's dog comes
over and craps on their lawnevery day, or whatever the case
may be, and it really getspeople perturbed.
Marshall Hunt (11:35):
The best case I read about that was a 2014
Toronto case Moreland Jones vsTaric And everything about the
decision was funny to read and Ithink the law clerks and the
judge probably had fun writingit.
But we had an oil executive onone side, a psychiatrist on the
other side.
They really don't like eachother.
The psychiatrist was lettinghis dog urinate in the oil
(11:57):
executives yard.
That psychiatrist in turn wastaking pictures of the oil
executives dog pooping in thenearby park.
They're filming each other,they sue each other, they
litigate it, go to themattresses on this one.
They're really fighting thetooth and nail.
And in the end, after all thiswork, the judge's conclusion I
(12:24):
had to write it down because itmade me laugh as a lawyer quote
there is no serious issue to betried in this action And
dismissed.
The case denied fees to bothsides.
I think that's probably how thejudge decided.
He could sort of punish bothsides.
A pox on both of you.
But yeah, the judge wasn'thappy about litigating that
issue, but some people take itvery seriously.
Bob Sewell (12:45):
But when it is a serious health and safety issue
and it can become that you couldbring nuisance losses You could
to enjoy people from repeatoffending And it can affect
people's health, affect people'swell-being.
It can become problematic withthe smells and the sanitation,
(13:08):
But, yeah, we can bring civilactions to enjoying people from
this type of stuff.
What about service animals?
Marshall Hunt (13:16):
Yeah, service animals are.
You would think that therewould be some type of they would
be exempt or they wouldn'treally apply.
But I don't have a lot ofpersonal experience in this area
but from reading the laws on itthey do actually anticipate
that service animals like anyother dogs probably more so than
most dogs, since they have sortof a special legal status in
(13:37):
Arizona and around the countrythat they also are expected to
be housebroken or not berelieving themselves in public
places.
And actually Arizona at leastlists a few reasons why a public
establishment could refuse aservice animal in their
establishment, one of which wasif the animal is not housebroken
(13:59):
.
I don't know how you know thatin the first instances, but the
second, that the dog lays thewaste in your local corner shop,
i guess you could trespass thedog and his owner and keep them
out forever.
Also, you got to watch out forthe service animals.
I didn't realize again as I wasreading this, that service
animals in Arizona can be eitherdogs or miniature horses.
Bob Sewell (14:21):
Miniature horses really.
Marshall Hunt (14:22):
It's written into the law, service animals can be
dogs or miniature horses.
I would really hope that yourhorse was housebroken, because
you don't want that horse comingin and not being housebroken in
your grocery store.
Bob Sewell (14:35):
Dude, I'm going to get myself a service horse.
That would be rad.
How far can we take this?
How far?
What is the furthest anyone'staken?
one of these sh*t stories?
Marshall Hunt (14:49):
Well, it's slightly different but relevant,
i guess, to the dog poopdiscussion.
There's a case in front of theUS Supreme Court right now
that's dog poop related.
It's more of a trademark case.
It's already been argued.
It hasn't been decided yet.
Jack Daniels obviouslyAmerica's biggest whiskey
manufacturer and seller filed atrademark lawsuit against
(15:13):
actually a local Arizona companywho makes sort of Oh look, you
do not mess around with Arizonacompanies.
So they make sort of noveltytoys I think specifically
novelty dog toys but they madeone that is made to sort of look
like the classic iconic JackDaniels whiskey bottle, but
(15:35):
instead of Jack Daniels theywrote on the bottle Bad Spaniels
.
Instead of 40% proof, theywrote that it's 43% poo and 100%
smelly.
Instead of being made from oldnumber seven Tennessee sour mash
(15:57):
whiskey, they said it's oldnumber two on your Tennessee
carpet.
These are the really highbrowjokes that they're making on
this story.
I don't think the justices wereparticularly amused by it.
From what I've read, i can'tbelieve they.
Bob Sewell (16:15):
Honestly, I can't believe they took up the subject
.
Marshall Hunt (16:18):
Well, yeah, so it's interesting again, not a
trademark expert from what Iread.
So the Jack Daniels won at thetrial level probably would have
died there, except the toycompany appealed to the Ninth
Circuit and Ninth Circuitoverruled by applying this sort
of unique test for a trademarkinfringement.
(16:40):
That's usually applied in amore creative space, like movies
, art, things like that that aretruly viewed as having some
type of artistic merit.
So most of the discussion atthe Supreme Court level is what
tests should we apply to thistype of dispute and did the
Ninth Circuit get it wrong inapplying this unique exception
(17:00):
to the normal trademark analysis?
There you go.
I did laugh that.
I think the attorney for JackDaniels will probably always
have the war story that she leda oral argument at the Supreme
Court by saying this caseinvolves a dog toy that copies
Jack Daniels' trademark andtrade dress and associates its
(17:21):
whiskey with dog poop.
That was her opening statement.
Bob Sewell (17:25):
Okay, marshall, let's just sum this up, because
we've had a lot of fun, we'vemade a lot of jokes, but it is,
in the end of the day, a serioussubject.
If I have a dog, i got to pickup the stuff, i got to pick up
the poop And if I don't, whathappens?
Marshall Hunt (17:41):
Yeah, we mentioned some of those city
codes.
I imagine most places aroundthe country are similar
generally viewed as civilinfraction subject to fines.
Tucson, we mentioned before$150 fine.
Phoenix can be as low as 100,but as high as 2,500.
So I imagine, if you're again aserial offender right And in
(18:02):
extreme cases can be prosecutedas a misdemeanor.
So I doubt.
I'm not aware that it's everhappened, but you got to watch
out and mostly you want to be agood neighbor.
Bob Sewell (18:13):
Right, and if you're not a good neighbor, you could
potentially expect nuisancelawsuits and injunctions against
you And, theoretically, in somecases, your apartment complex
might throw you out.
Yeah, yeah.
So, marshall, thanks for comingon the show.
All right, no problem.
Thanks, bob.
Thanks for listening too.
Is that even legal?
Remember this isn't legaladvice.
(18:34):
If you have a legal questionfor yourself, reach out to an
attorney.
Remember that we're fun, we'relovable and we are here to help
you.
To my listeners in 62 countriesacross the world.
If you have something you wantto explore, email us at
produceratevenlegalcom And don'tbe shy about leaving a review
(18:55):
for this podcast on yourfavorite podcast forum.
See you next time.
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