September 30, 2024 • 22 mins
Could you lose $400,000 to a sophisticated email scam? Join us as we uncover the alarming rise of wire fraud in the real estate industry with Angelika Dobler, an experienced litigation and appellate attorney specializing in real estate litigation. Angelica shares a distressing case where a buyer fell victim to a sophisticated scam that led to a massive financial loss. With FBI statistics pointing to a significant surge in these types of crimes, we discuss how scammers spoof email addresses and exploit the quick pace of real estate transactions to deceive unsuspecting buyers and sellers. Learn why the real estate sector is particularly vulnerable and understand the critical need for heightened awareness and preventive measures to protect your investments.
Discover actionable best practices for preventing wire fraud from disrupting your real estate transactions. Angelica and I emphasize the importance of due diligence, secure verification methods, and face-to-face conversations. We also delve into the role of secure servers and consistent procedures in safeguarding against fraud. Additionally, we explore the potential for insurance coverage and the immediate steps victims should take to mitigate their losses, such as contacting their bank's fraud department and the FBI. This episode is packed with practical advice and insights that could save you from becoming the next victim of wire fraud. Tune in to protect your hard-earned money and ensure your real estate transactions are secure.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Is that even legal?
It's a question we askourselves on a daily basis.
We ask it about our neighbors,we ask it about our elected
officials, we ask it about ourfamily and sometimes we ask it
to ourselves.
The law is complex and itimpacts everyone all the time,
and that's why we are here.
I'm attorney Bob Sewell andthis is season five of the
(00:26):
Worldwide Podcast that exploresthat one burning question.
Is that even legal?
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Today's guest in the show is Angelica Dobler.
She's a litigation attorney.
She emphasizes her practice onreal estate litigation.
She's also an appellateattorney, so welcome to the show
.
Thank you, bob.
So I want to tell you a storythat's been happening or
happened out there in the worldand I want you to tell me what
(00:58):
you think about it.
So a sophisticated woman a fewweeks ago told her story at
MSNBC and her story was that shewent out negotiated for a new
home.
It was her dream house and shewas super happy that she won the
(01:19):
negotiation.
She's now dealing with thetitle company and she's working
on closing the transaction.
And she gets an email from thetitle company and the email says
wire $400,000 to this locationand at this big bank.
And she says sounds fantasticto herself.
(01:40):
She says that and she wires thefunds immediately.
And the next day she getsanother email.
This time it.
She wires the funds immediatelyand the next day she gets
another email.
This time it's from the realtitle company.
Go ahead and wire money to thisaccount.
And she says what are youtalking about?
I just did it yesterday andwhen she unwound, what happened?
(02:02):
Apparently someone's emailserver probably title companies
had been spoofed.
There was a bad actor watchingthe server somewhere and they
spoofed.
The email made it look like itwas coming from the title
company, the email saying whyare these funds the bad guy?
(02:23):
Email saying why are thesefunds the bad guy?
And she did because she justassumed it was a real
transaction.
So is this a real problem or isthis a one-off?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Oh, bob, this is an increasing problem and wire
fraud, particularly within thereal estate industry, continues
to increase as a problem.
There are numerous types ofscams involved, trying to take
the hard-earned funds of buyersand sellers, those involved in
(03:00):
trying to purchase a home right.
In trying to purchase a homeright, it's supposed to be a
happy, momentous occasion, andthen they get the crushing
reality that they'veaccidentally, inadvertently,
wired it off to somebody elseand that they're the victim of a
fraudulent scheme.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
But they've been duped, right.
I mean, it's not an accident.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Right and usually so.
These are increasing.
According to FBI data, scamsinvolving fake emails in real
estate deals have exploded overthe last decade.
So some of the statistics fromthe FBI are it was about $9
million in losses to the USpublic in 2015 to over $446
(03:46):
million in losses to the USpublic by 2022.
And that number is justprojected to increase.
Because, ultimately, wiretransfer is akin to transferring
cash and so these are difficultto track, difficult to unwind
(04:07):
once the wire transfer iseffectuated, and so,
consequently, it provides reallyan opportunity for scammers to
engage in the fraud.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
That's amazing and they're using this.
You know, I'm assuming thatthis is the type the way that
fraud happened.
Spoofing the title company'semail is pretty common.
Like that's how the frauds arehappening.
Is that what you're seeing outthere?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, that's definitely a very common way in
which the wire transfer fraud isoccurring.
It can be emails that are justa letter off from somebody
else's email that you've beeninteracting with.
It could be actually spoofed, asyou said.
(04:56):
So you look at it and it looksexactly the same as the email
that you've been engaging withsomebody at the title company,
for instance.
There's multiple ways in whichthese sorts of schemes manifest
themselves, but they all,ultimately, are focused on
(05:18):
giving the incorrect accountnumber, wire transfer, routing
numbers to the consumer andtrying to dupe the consumer into
sending the large amount ofmoney to the wrong individual.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That's terrible.
This wire transfer fraud, Iunderstand, is hitting law firms
.
It's hitting real estatecompanies.
It's hitting any sophisticatedbusiness that happens to
transfer a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, and so that's what you really see it.
A lot in the real estate.
Realm and real estate isparticularly vulnerable in terms
of that.
It's attractive for scammersbecause what you have in real
estate is that you have datathat's readily available about
property listings via the MLS orthe county recorder.
(06:10):
A lot of that information ispublic information and so, once
again, very easy and accessibleto a scammer.
You also have, within realestate, you have transactions
involving large sums of money.
So consequently, right, makingit very attractive for a scammer
, because if you can get a onelarge sum, it's going to be
(06:30):
worth quite a bit more thandoing all the same effort for
smaller sums.
You also have in real estate,you have a lot of varied parties
involved who are sharinginformation about the closing
right.
Like, think about, in a realestate deal, you've got the
buyer and the seller, but youalso have their real estate
(06:51):
agents and brokers.
You have a title companyinvolved.
Potentially you have lawyersinvolved, so you have up to 10
people exchanging informationand emails with one another in
order to try to get the dealclosed.
And you also have this kind oftime pressure to try to get the
deal closed, and you also havethis kind of time pressure of
trying to get the close ofescrow right and getting the
deal done.
And so those pressures all leadto being kind of a ripe
(07:17):
opportunity for a fraudster,never mind the fact that a lot
of these fraudsters, althoughthey might be, they're targeting
potentially the title companiesor the attorneys and law firms.
Most of the time, what they'redoing is they're targeting the
buyers and sellers themselves,ie members of the public who are
(07:37):
just really unaware about thepotential for wire fraud.
Right, these are potentiallyfirst-time homebuyers, or even
if you know, how many homes doesone does the normal member of
the public buy and sell in theirlifetime?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
This is something that's only Two, maybe three.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Right, yeah, maybe you just have kind of you know,
individuals who are doing anoverwhelming process and the
fraudster is taking advantage ofthe average consumer's lack of
knowledge.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I feel like, though, I feel like there's something we
can do.
I mean, well, let me just backup.
In your typical romance scam,you wanna say you wanna blame
the victim to some degree, right?
I mean, you know it's not thevictim's fault, but you're like,
(08:30):
really, you never met thisperson, but you think you're in
love and you're agreeing to sendthem money.
You're not seeing this problem,you're not catching it in
advance.
But this is ensnaring peoplewho aren't typically vulnerable,
right?
(08:50):
This is ensnaring the mostsophisticated of us.
So what do we do?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Well, this is what I tell everyone you need to do a
verification call, becausetypically this is how the scam
works is that you'll get anemail, potentially from the real
title company, and then, likeyou know, an hour later you'll
get a follow up or, even quickerthan that, a follow-up oh,
(09:21):
actually send it to this account, and then that's the bad email,
or even the story that youopened with, where she actually
got it in advance, the bad email, and then the real wire
transfer email came later, right, so you can't even trust
necessarily the timing.
So what you need to do is youneed to do this verification
(09:42):
call where you are callingwhoever it is who's requesting
the funds.
You are calling them andconfirming the account
information and you're actuallytalking to them on the phone.
You're not just doing an email,you're not doing a text message
.
You are calling and talking tosomebody who you have spoken
(10:04):
with in the past about it.
Ideally, right, and that'ssomething that's also.
You can't just take the emailthat the wire transfer
information came with.
Right, because of course, thescammer is going to put their
own phone number in there,because they're going to say, ah
, this consumer, they've beentold to do a verification.
(10:28):
So they're going to call thisnumber potentially, but then
you're just calling the scammer,who's, of course, going to
verify that their false accountnumber.
So, you've got to do your ownindependent number verification
right.
Find that independent number,one that you've been using in
the past, go to the whatever thebank's website, the title
(10:49):
company's website, look it up ontheir actual website and call
that number and get directed andin contact with that particular
person and then confirm it andthen send it.
So it is a whole nother step ona whole lot of steps involving
the real estate transaction.
It's just another thing to addto the checklist, but when
you're talking about the sumsinvolved here, it is an easy
(11:12):
step to take in order to makesure that you're not going to
have just more headache down theline.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I like this idea in theory, but right, you
heard that.
But it's getting theinformation out to do this
verification call.
Seems to me that a lot ofignorant people to the scam out
(11:41):
there.
It seems to me that it's goingto be hard to make this a
regular practice and mightincrease times.
But tell me what, tell me whatyou're thinking with this yeah,
well, and this is this is thething.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
so, those of you who are regular podcast listeners,
you're obviously upper echelonindividuals Of course the
savviest of individuals and itmight be that you know some of
you are real estateprofessionals who are listening
in, and that's something thatI've seen is a lot of you know
(12:12):
real estate agents or brokersnow have as a disclaimer even
within their email signaturesthey say beware wire fraud scams
and they have these warningsand you have these warnings and
you even see that in the closingpacket of the documents, right
Like wire frauds and issue andexclamation points and bold, big
font language about that.
(12:33):
But that's the thing is thatthese disclaimers aren't, as
they're, easily ignored by thecommon consumer because the home
buying process is overwhelming,let's face it.
You go to closing how big's thepacket closing that you get,
that you have to sign andnotarize.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Hundreds of pages and the person explaining it.
I remember when I bought ahouse, the person explaining it
was like and this document saysthis?
And I'm like no, it doesn't.
I've read these documentsbefore you know.
Maybe not that particular one,but I've read enough of these.
That's not what it's talkingabout.
It's talking about this otherlaw.
(13:14):
Oh oh, it's good to know.
It's like no one's read thesethings except for the person who
drafted them.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
No, one's read these things, except for the person
who drafted them.
Yeah, so that's where I guess Icall upon those involved.
You know, in the real estateprofession is warn your clients
very specifically like face toface when you're meeting with
them, especially once they'vemade the offer and that, look,
(13:40):
we're going to go through thisclosing process.
As a part of that closingprocess, you're going to be
required to wire tens ofthousands, if not hundreds of
thousands, of dollars, and sothis is what you're going to do.
Before you do that is, you'regoing to call me at this number
and you have that face-to-faceconversation and you have your
client, like you know, if yourphone number is not in your, if
(14:04):
my phone number is not in yourphone right now, you're going to
put it in and this is thenumber you're going to call to
verify that this is the properwire account information, right?
You do that due diligence foryour client on the front end, so
the client's not overwhelmedwith the whole host of paperwork
and all the requirements at themoment of closing.
(14:27):
And so that's going to help isthat we got to take it upon
ourselves as the professionalswho are aware of these problems,
who know how best to hedgeagainst these problems and to
get that out to the public.
Or if you're a member of thepublic and you hear your friends
buying a house talk to themabout wire fraud, say hey, you
(14:47):
should listen to Bob's podcast.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
No, I mean-.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
But also just like let's just hey, have you heard
about wire fraud?
Do you know it's an issue?
Because that's the thing thatreally is that so many consumers
just don't even realize thatthis is a potential scam or that
there's an issue at all.
And that's where fraudstersthen can thrive, because they're
taking advantage of ignorance.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
The real estate professionals have to be on
their A game.
The sales agent, the buyer'sagent, the title companies have
to be on their A game.
They need to know that existsand, to that extent, real estate
companies and title companiesand professionals who deal with
(15:30):
wire transfers they need to havesecure servers, real
professionals, real securityeffort on their servers and have
discussions, real securityeffort on their servers and have
discussions.
I can imagine that real estateprofessionals typically have
their go-to title company people.
Right, like it says in thecontract, we will use Frank
(15:54):
Johnson at XYZ title to closethis transaction.
They have that written intotheir contracts so they know in
advance.
So well, frank Johnson needs tohave a system.
Remember, this is how it'sgoing to work every single time.
(16:16):
Otherwise, this is going tohappen and continue to happen
until people figure out that wehave to protect ourselves from
these fraudsters.
What about insurance?
Can we insure against this?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
You know that's going to be.
Yeah, absolutely.
But just because insuranceexists doesn't mean that that is
a whole other rigmarole.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
A verification phone call solves going down that road
at all, right, and so, yes,there are mechanisms you don't
want all right, and so, yes,there are mechanisms.
You don't want those right, andthey're fail-safes in a way.
But ultimately that's going toamount to real money lost and
(17:07):
headaches and stress andnon-monetary issues.
So do a verification phone call.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Advise your clients to do verification phone call.
Yeah, advise your clients to doverification phone calls.
Prevent the issue from everstarting.
Right, it's right.
It's like the best Right.
Prevention is the best cure,right.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, the ounce of prevention, yeah, sound of cure,
or something like that.
Yeah, I could not agree more.
There are, you know, and Ihappen to know there are
insurance companies that willinsure against this.
But I can imagine the wayinsurance companies work that
they'll insure it once and thenafter that they're going to drop
(17:46):
you.
You know, like you know,they're going to drop you at
that point after that one timeoccurrence.
I could imagine I don't knowthat for certain going to drop
you at that point after that onetime occurrence.
I could imagine.
I don't know that for certain.
But if I was an insurancecompany and it happened once, I
think I'd say I think you'redone.
The next time we re-upped yourinsurance we would say I think
we're done.
And because it really comesdown to do, you have the
(18:09):
assistance in place to coveryourself and if you have a track
record of bad transactions, ifyou do it once, okay, maybe
Definitely.
The second time that happens,no insurance, you're uninsurable
(18:31):
.
So it's a hard thing.
So let's say, angelica, I'm avictim, I've just transferred my
money, I just figured out thatI lost it.
What do I do?
What's my first step?
Speaker 3 (18:54):
You want to contact your bank ASAP and potentially
the bank that received the wireif you know that you want to get
in contact with them.
Contact the fraud department ofthe receiving bank in
particular to say I've been avictim of wire fraud.
I inadvertently sent it to thisaccount because there was a
scammer who sent me the improperwire transfer information.
(19:15):
That's the first and primarystep, and the second step that
you're going to do is contactthe FBI.
The FBI actually has an onlinecomplaint form for those who are
victims of wire fraud and, ingeneral, like internet crimes
like that.
They'll give you a case number.
They'll investigate it.
(19:36):
The FBI does investigate andattempts to claw back these
funds.
They have a 71% success rate,which is pretty good, but not a
percentage that I want to take arisk on.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
The FBI has a 71% success rate.
We contacted them.
Do I contact an attorney?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
You absolutely could contact an attorney, especially
if you're the title company realestate professional whose email
was spoofed.
You need to be contacting anattorney, potentially know your
own liability and what your rolein it was, and to make sure
that you're contacting also yourIT and security people to make
(20:22):
sure that nothing's beencompromised on your server's end
.
And so it really depends on whoyou are in terms of whether
you're the individual who's beendefrauded or the professional
whose client has been defrauded.
There's potential liabilitythere and, depending on the
(20:44):
facts and circumstances.
And so if you need an attorney,I'm Angelica Dobler, I'm at
Davis Miles.
I'm at Davis Miles and you cancall me at 480-344-4989.
That's my direct line.
But ultimately, act fast is theresponse to all of this in
(21:12):
terms of if you've been thatvictim of wire fraud, the faster
you act, the more likely it isthat money is going to be able
to be recovered.
But sometimes you don't evenknow until it's been a day or
two later.
But then do it as fast as youcan.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, you know this wire transfer fraud is prevalent
.
We need to take it seriously.
We need to really guard againstit and shut these fraudsters
down quickly.
So it goes away.
So, angelica, thanks for comingon the show.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Thank you, bob.
It's been a pleasure.
I really enjoyed it to.
In 100 countries and availableon virtually all podcast
platforms.
Leave us a review, send us someshow ideas and do so at
producer at evenlegalcom.
Don't forget, as smart as wesound and as lovable as we are,
we are not your lawyers and weare not giving you legal advice.
(22:11):
But if you need some legaladvice, get some.
There are some great lawyersout there and we are always
ready to help.
See you next advice.
But if you need some legaladvice, get some.
There are some great lawyersout there and we are always
ready to help.
See you next time.
Is that even legal?
It's a question we askourselves on a daily basis.
We ask it about our neighbors,we ask it about our elected
officials, we ask it about ourfamily and sometimes we ask it
to ourselves.
The law is complex and itimpacts everyone all the time,
and that's why we are here.
I'm attorney Bob Sewell andthis is season five of the
(00:26):
Worldwide Podcast that exploresthat one burning question.
Is that even legal?
Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Today's guest in the show is Angelica Dobler.
She's a litigation attorney.
She emphasizes her practice onreal estate litigation.
She's also an appellateattorney, so welcome to the show
.
Thank you, bob.
So I want to tell you a storythat's been happening or
happened out there in the worldand I want you to tell me what
(00:58):
you think about it.
So a sophisticated woman a fewweeks ago told her story at
MSNBC and her story was that shewent out negotiated for a new
home.
It was her dream house and shewas super happy that she won the
(01:19):
negotiation.
She's now dealing with thetitle company and she's working
on closing the transaction.
And she gets an email from thetitle company and the email says
wire $400,000 to this locationand at this big bank.
And she says sounds fantasticto herself.
(01:40):
She says that and she wires thefunds immediately.
And the next day she getsanother email.
This time it.
She wires the funds immediatelyand the next day she gets
another email.
This time it's from the realtitle company.
Go ahead and wire money to thisaccount.
And she says what are youtalking about?
I just did it yesterday andwhen she unwound, what happened?
(02:02):
Apparently someone's emailserver probably title companies
had been spoofed.
There was a bad actor watchingthe server somewhere and they
spoofed.
The email made it look like itwas coming from the title
company, the email saying whyare these funds the bad guy?
(02:23):
Email saying why are thesefunds the bad guy?
And she did because she justassumed it was a real
transaction.
So is this a real problem or isthis a one-off?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Oh, bob, this is an increasing problem and wire
fraud, particularly within thereal estate industry, continues
to increase as a problem.
There are numerous types ofscams involved, trying to take
the hard-earned funds of buyersand sellers, those involved in
(03:00):
trying to purchase a home right.
In trying to purchase a homeright, it's supposed to be a
happy, momentous occasion, andthen they get the crushing
reality that they'veaccidentally, inadvertently,
wired it off to somebody elseand that they're the victim of a
fraudulent scheme.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
But they've been duped, right.
I mean, it's not an accident.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Right and usually so.
These are increasing.
According to FBI data, scamsinvolving fake emails in real
estate deals have exploded overthe last decade.
So some of the statistics fromthe FBI are it was about $9
million in losses to the USpublic in 2015 to over $446
(03:46):
million in losses to the USpublic by 2022.
And that number is justprojected to increase.
Because, ultimately, wiretransfer is akin to transferring
cash and so these are difficultto track, difficult to unwind
(04:07):
once the wire transfer iseffectuated, and so,
consequently, it provides reallyan opportunity for scammers to
engage in the fraud.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
That's amazing and they're using this.
You know, I'm assuming thatthis is the type the way that
fraud happened.
Spoofing the title company'semail is pretty common.
Like that's how the frauds arehappening.
Is that what you're seeing outthere?
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yeah, that's definitely a very common way in
which the wire transfer fraud isoccurring.
It can be emails that are justa letter off from somebody
else's email that you've beeninteracting with.
It could be actually spoofed, asyou said.
(04:56):
So you look at it and it looksexactly the same as the email
that you've been engaging withsomebody at the title company,
for instance.
There's multiple ways in whichthese sorts of schemes manifest
themselves, but they all,ultimately, are focused on
(05:18):
giving the incorrect accountnumber, wire transfer, routing
numbers to the consumer andtrying to dupe the consumer into
sending the large amount ofmoney to the wrong individual.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
That's terrible.
This wire transfer fraud, Iunderstand, is hitting law firms
.
It's hitting real estatecompanies.
It's hitting any sophisticatedbusiness that happens to
transfer a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, and so that's what you really see it.
A lot in the real estate.
Realm and real estate isparticularly vulnerable in terms
of that.
It's attractive for scammersbecause what you have in real
estate is that you have datathat's readily available about
property listings via the MLS orthe county recorder.
(06:10):
A lot of that information ispublic information and so, once
again, very easy and accessibleto a scammer.
You also have, within realestate, you have transactions
involving large sums of money.
So consequently, right, makingit very attractive for a scammer
, because if you can get a onelarge sum, it's going to be
(06:30):
worth quite a bit more thandoing all the same effort for
smaller sums.
You also have in real estate,you have a lot of varied parties
involved who are sharinginformation about the closing
right.
Like, think about, in a realestate deal, you've got the
buyer and the seller, but youalso have their real estate
(06:51):
agents and brokers.
You have a title companyinvolved.
Potentially you have lawyersinvolved, so you have up to 10
people exchanging informationand emails with one another in
order to try to get the dealclosed.
And you also have this kind oftime pressure to try to get the
deal closed, and you also havethis kind of time pressure of
trying to get the close ofescrow right and getting the
deal done.
And so those pressures all leadto being kind of a ripe
(07:17):
opportunity for a fraudster,never mind the fact that a lot
of these fraudsters, althoughthey might be, they're targeting
potentially the title companiesor the attorneys and law firms.
Most of the time, what they'redoing is they're targeting the
buyers and sellers themselves,ie members of the public who are
(07:37):
just really unaware about thepotential for wire fraud.
Right, these are potentiallyfirst-time homebuyers, or even
if you know, how many homes doesone does the normal member of
the public buy and sell in theirlifetime?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
This is something that's only Two, maybe three.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Right, yeah, maybe you just have kind of you know,
individuals who are doing anoverwhelming process and the
fraudster is taking advantage ofthe average consumer's lack of
knowledge.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
I feel like, though, I feel like there's something we
can do.
I mean, well, let me just backup.
In your typical romance scam,you wanna say you wanna blame
the victim to some degree, right?
I mean, you know it's not thevictim's fault, but you're like,
(08:30):
really, you never met thisperson, but you think you're in
love and you're agreeing to sendthem money.
You're not seeing this problem,you're not catching it in
advance.
But this is ensnaring peoplewho aren't typically vulnerable,
right?
(08:50):
This is ensnaring the mostsophisticated of us.
So what do we do?
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Well, this is what I tell everyone you need to do a
verification call, becausetypically this is how the scam
works is that you'll get anemail, potentially from the real
title company, and then, likeyou know, an hour later you'll
get a follow up or, even quickerthan that, a follow-up oh,
(09:21):
actually send it to this account, and then that's the bad email,
or even the story that youopened with, where she actually
got it in advance, the bad email, and then the real wire
transfer email came later, right, so you can't even trust
necessarily the timing.
So what you need to do is youneed to do this verification
(09:42):
call where you are callingwhoever it is who's requesting
the funds.
You are calling them andconfirming the account
information and you're actuallytalking to them on the phone.
You're not just doing an email,you're not doing a text message
.
You are calling and talking tosomebody who you have spoken
(10:04):
with in the past about it.
Ideally, right, and that'ssomething that's also.
You can't just take the emailthat the wire transfer
information came with.
Right, because of course, thescammer is going to put their
own phone number in there,because they're going to say, ah
, this consumer, they've beentold to do a verification.
(10:28):
So they're going to call thisnumber potentially, but then
you're just calling the scammer,who's, of course, going to
verify that their false accountnumber.
So, you've got to do your ownindependent number verification
right.
Find that independent number,one that you've been using in
the past, go to the whatever thebank's website, the title
(10:49):
company's website, look it up ontheir actual website and call
that number and get directed andin contact with that particular
person and then confirm it andthen send it.
So it is a whole nother step ona whole lot of steps involving
the real estate transaction.
It's just another thing to addto the checklist, but when
you're talking about the sumsinvolved here, it is an easy
(11:12):
step to take in order to makesure that you're not going to
have just more headache down theline.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Yeah, I like this idea in theory, but right, you
heard that.
But it's getting theinformation out to do this
verification call.
Seems to me that a lot ofignorant people to the scam out
(11:41):
there.
It seems to me that it's goingto be hard to make this a
regular practice and mightincrease times.
But tell me what, tell me whatyou're thinking with this yeah,
well, and this is this is thething.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
so, those of you who are regular podcast listeners,
you're obviously upper echelonindividuals Of course the
savviest of individuals and itmight be that you know some of
you are real estateprofessionals who are listening
in, and that's something thatI've seen is a lot of you know
(12:12):
real estate agents or brokersnow have as a disclaimer even
within their email signaturesthey say beware wire fraud scams
and they have these warningsand you have these warnings and
you even see that in the closingpacket of the documents, right
Like wire frauds and issue andexclamation points and bold, big
font language about that.
(12:33):
But that's the thing is thatthese disclaimers aren't, as
they're, easily ignored by thecommon consumer because the home
buying process is overwhelming,let's face it.
You go to closing how big's thepacket closing that you get,
that you have to sign andnotarize.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Hundreds of pages and the person explaining it.
I remember when I bought ahouse, the person explaining it
was like and this document saysthis?
And I'm like no, it doesn't.
I've read these documentsbefore you know.
Maybe not that particular one,but I've read enough of these.
That's not what it's talkingabout.
It's talking about this otherlaw.
(13:14):
Oh oh, it's good to know.
It's like no one's read thesethings except for the person who
drafted them.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
No, one's read these things, except for the person
who drafted them.
Yeah, so that's where I guess Icall upon those involved.
You know, in the real estateprofession is warn your clients
very specifically like face toface when you're meeting with
them, especially once they'vemade the offer and that, look,
(13:40):
we're going to go through thisclosing process.
As a part of that closingprocess, you're going to be
required to wire tens ofthousands, if not hundreds of
thousands, of dollars, and sothis is what you're going to do.
Before you do that is, you'regoing to call me at this number
and you have that face-to-faceconversation and you have your
client, like you know, if yourphone number is not in your, if
(14:04):
my phone number is not in yourphone right now, you're going to
put it in and this is thenumber you're going to call to
verify that this is the properwire account information, right?
You do that due diligence foryour client on the front end, so
the client's not overwhelmedwith the whole host of paperwork
and all the requirements at themoment of closing.
(14:27):
And so that's going to help isthat we got to take it upon
ourselves as the professionalswho are aware of these problems,
who know how best to hedgeagainst these problems and to
get that out to the public.
Or if you're a member of thepublic and you hear your friends
buying a house talk to themabout wire fraud, say hey, you
(14:47):
should listen to Bob's podcast.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
No, I mean-.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
But also just like let's just hey, have you heard
about wire fraud?
Do you know it's an issue?
Because that's the thing thatreally is that so many consumers
just don't even realize thatthis is a potential scam or that
there's an issue at all.
And that's where fraudstersthen can thrive, because they're
taking advantage of ignorance.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
The real estate professionals have to be on
their A game.
The sales agent, the buyer'sagent, the title companies have
to be on their A game.
They need to know that existsand, to that extent, real estate
companies and title companiesand professionals who deal with
(15:30):
wire transfers they need to havesecure servers, real
professionals, real securityeffort on their servers and have
discussions, real securityeffort on their servers and have
discussions.
I can imagine that real estateprofessionals typically have
their go-to title company people.
Right, like it says in thecontract, we will use Frank
(15:54):
Johnson at XYZ title to closethis transaction.
They have that written intotheir contracts so they know in
advance.
So well, frank Johnson needs tohave a system.
Remember, this is how it'sgoing to work every single time.
(16:16):
Otherwise, this is going tohappen and continue to happen
until people figure out that wehave to protect ourselves from
these fraudsters.
What about insurance?
Can we insure against this?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
You know that's going to be.
Yeah, absolutely.
But just because insuranceexists doesn't mean that that is
a whole other rigmarole.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
A verification phone call solves going down that road
at all, right, and so, yes,there are mechanisms you don't
want all right, and so, yes,there are mechanisms.
You don't want those right, andthey're fail-safes in a way.
But ultimately that's going toamount to real money lost and
(17:07):
headaches and stress andnon-monetary issues.
So do a verification phone call.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Advise your clients to do verification phone call.
Yeah, advise your clients to doverification phone calls.
Prevent the issue from everstarting.
Right, it's right.
It's like the best Right.
Prevention is the best cure,right.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, the ounce of prevention, yeah, sound of cure,
or something like that.
Yeah, I could not agree more.
There are, you know, and Ihappen to know there are
insurance companies that willinsure against this.
But I can imagine the wayinsurance companies work that
they'll insure it once and thenafter that they're going to drop
(17:46):
you.
You know, like you know,they're going to drop you at
that point after that one timeoccurrence.
I could imagine I don't knowthat for certain going to drop
you at that point after that onetime occurrence.
I could imagine.
I don't know that for certain.
But if I was an insurancecompany and it happened once, I
think I'd say I think you'redone.
The next time we re-upped yourinsurance we would say I think
we're done.
And because it really comesdown to do, you have the
(18:09):
assistance in place to coveryourself and if you have a track
record of bad transactions, ifyou do it once, okay, maybe
Definitely.
The second time that happens,no insurance, you're uninsurable
(18:31):
.
So it's a hard thing.
So let's say, angelica, I'm avictim, I've just transferred my
money, I just figured out thatI lost it.
What do I do?
What's my first step?
Speaker 3 (18:54):
You want to contact your bank ASAP and potentially
the bank that received the wireif you know that you want to get
in contact with them.
Contact the fraud department ofthe receiving bank in
particular to say I've been avictim of wire fraud.
I inadvertently sent it to thisaccount because there was a
scammer who sent me the improperwire transfer information.
(19:15):
That's the first and primarystep, and the second step that
you're going to do is contactthe FBI.
The FBI actually has an onlinecomplaint form for those who are
victims of wire fraud and, ingeneral, like internet crimes
like that.
They'll give you a case number.
They'll investigate it.
(19:36):
The FBI does investigate andattempts to claw back these
funds.
They have a 71% success rate,which is pretty good, but not a
percentage that I want to take arisk on.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
The FBI has a 71% success rate.
We contacted them.
Do I contact an attorney?
Speaker 3 (20:00):
You absolutely could contact an attorney, especially
if you're the title company realestate professional whose email
was spoofed.
You need to be contacting anattorney, potentially know your
own liability and what your rolein it was, and to make sure
that you're contacting also yourIT and security people to make
(20:22):
sure that nothing's beencompromised on your server's end
.
And so it really depends on whoyou are in terms of whether
you're the individual who's beendefrauded or the professional
whose client has been defrauded.
There's potential liabilitythere and, depending on the
(20:44):
facts and circumstances.
And so if you need an attorney,I'm Angelica Dobler, I'm at
Davis Miles.
I'm at Davis Miles and you cancall me at 480-344-4989.
That's my direct line.
But ultimately, act fast is theresponse to all of this in
(21:12):
terms of if you've been thatvictim of wire fraud, the faster
you act, the more likely it isthat money is going to be able
to be recovered.
But sometimes you don't evenknow until it's been a day or
two later.
But then do it as fast as youcan.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah, you know this wire transfer fraud is prevalent
.
We need to take it seriously.
We need to really guard againstit and shut these fraudsters
down quickly.
So it goes away.
So, angelica, thanks for comingon the show.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Thank you, bob.
It's been a pleasure.
I really enjoyed it to.
In 100 countries and availableon virtually all podcast
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Don't forget, as smart as wesound and as lovable as we are,
we are not your lawyers and weare not giving you legal advice.
(22:11):
But if you need some legaladvice, get some.
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ready to help.
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But if you need some legaladvice, get some.
There are some great lawyersout there and we are always
ready to help.
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