June 7, 2025 • 40 mins
In our Pride special, Island Noir: Beyond the Palm Trees revisits the suspicious death of Marsha “Pay It No Mind” Johnson, the Black trans activist who, alongside her friend Sylvia Rivera, co-founded STAR (Street Transvestite Action Revolutionaries) and helped lay the foundation for what we now recognize as Pride.
In 1992, Marsha’s body was found in the Hudson River. The NYPD called it suicide.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
In a world that punished people just for being
who they are, one voice stoodout bold, beautiful and
unbothered, with flowers in herhair, boldness in her, her walk,
and move through the world withfire in her soul.
Damn, that sounded likesomething Maya Angelou would say
(00:33):
.
But anyways, her name wasMarsha P Johnson, and tonight
we're following her journey fromprotests to the unanswered
questions that still linger.
Welcome back to anotherpowerful episode of Island Noir
(01:01):
podcast.
I'm your host, nia Starr.
Island Noir podcast.
I'm your host, nia Starr.
Today we're diving into a storythat's part celebration, part
tragedy and, as always, alltruth.
But before we get into whoMarsha P Johnson was, we need to
talk about the world she wasborn into, because to really
(01:26):
understand her as a person, wehave to understand the journey,
the war she walked through justto even exist during her time.
This episode we're pulling backthe layers on her life, a life
that sparked change and a deaththat still demands answers.
(01:52):
We'll walk through her earlyyears and her rise as a
revolutionary in the queerliberation movement and the
mystery surrounding her finaldays, and in all of it, her
(02:18):
laughter, her lipstick and herlegacy.
We're asking the same questionher community still asks today?
What really happened to Marshatoday?
What really happened to Marsha?
Mid-20th century America wasn'tjust unkind to queer people, it
was hostile.
Same-sex relationships wereillegal in nearly every state.
(02:39):
Dressing up outside of yourassigned gender that alone could
get you arrested or worse,harassed, beaten, humiliated.
Queer bars were raidedconstantly, brutalize the people
(03:01):
, drag them out, and if you'repoor, black or trans, you
weren't just pushed aside, youwere targeted.
Now most people point to theStonewall Uprising in 1969 as
(03:23):
the beginning of queerresistance, and yeah, it was a
turning point.
But there's more to it.
During my research on this, Ifound it very interesting.
The Stonewall Inn was a smallbar in New York City, greenwich
Village.
It wasn't fancy, it didn't evenhave a liquor license,
(03:48):
apparently but it was one of thefew places where queer folks,
especially trans people, dragqueens and homeless youth could
gather without immediate fear,or so they thought.
That was until the night ofJune 28, 1969.
(04:13):
Around 1.20 in the morning,police raided the bar A routine
shake-up, but this time it was abit different, because this
time the people in the barfought back, the patrons refused
to go quietly and by this timecrowds started to gather outside
(04:39):
and bottles were being thrown.
What started as a raid turnedinto six nights of protests.
The streets erupted with chaosand rage, but in a way, in a
sense, they also united a lot ofof the queer community and
(05:03):
their allies Drag queens, transwomen, street kids, everyone.
They were all there on thefront lines facing the riot cops
, with all geared up withnothing but heels, fists and
fury.
And while Marsha P Johnson hasoften been credited with
(05:27):
throwing the first brick, evenshe said in interviews that
wasn't quite how it went down,but the fact that she was there,
she was part of that fire andafterward she kept it burning,
because Stonewall didn't endwith just broken windows and
(05:51):
ramming doors.
It became a movement Becausewithin a year, the first Pride
March took place, new activistgroups formed and the fight for
lgbtq liberation was no longerjust whispers and back alleys.
(06:12):
It was loud, it was out front,it was impossible to ignore.
Those seeds of resistance wereplanted long before stonewall.
Back in the Harlem Renaissance,I learned that Black queer
artists like Gladys Bentley andRichard Bruce Nugent were
(06:34):
already bending the rules,creating, performing, living out
loud in a world that wantedthem to just stay quiet and stay
out of sight, out of mind.
They challenged racism andhomophobia with every line,
every lyric, every look.
(06:55):
Marsha P Johnson didn't comeout of nowhere.
She came from that specificlegacy.
She came from that specificlegacy and just when you, the
community, might catch a break,another war hits, the AIDS
epidemic, entire neighborhoodswiped out, friends, lovers,
(07:19):
whole chosen families gone.
The government ignored it,hospitals turned people away.
The media barely wrote about it, but through it all, marsha
stood as a black trans, poor andpowerful.
(07:40):
Now that we've set the stage,let's talk about the woman who
lit a spark.
Before she became Marsha PJohnson, she was known as
Malcolm Michaels Jr, born August24, 1945, in Elizabeth, new
(08:02):
Jersey.
She was the fifth of sevenchildren in a working-class
Christian home.
Her father, malcolm Sr, workedat a General Motors plant and
helped support their largefamily.
Not much is publicly knownabout their relationship, but it
could mean it was just reallyprivate or simply not discussed
(08:27):
as much.
Marsha's mother, alberta, was adevoted parent but also held
strong religious beliefs thatshaped her view of Marsha's
identity when she eventuallycame out.
When she eventually came out,according to Marsha, her mother
(08:49):
once expressed disapproval ofher gender expression in a
deeply hurtful way, but still,marsha never spoke about her
mother with resentment.
Marsha wore a cross necklacethroughout her life and often
spoke about her own faith.
Despite the judgment she faced,she still had her own
(09:13):
connection to spirituality andit remained strong.
From an early age, marshaexpressed herself in ways that
challenged traditional gendernorms.
As a child, she explained thatshe experienced significant
trauma which affected how sheeventually navigated the world,
(09:40):
and for a time she suppressedparts of herself for safety, and
a lot of it has to do with herreligious upbringing as well.
After graduating high school in1963, she left New Jersey
behind and, as you can imagine,she left because of her family's
(10:05):
disapproval of her lifestyle,and when she left she only had
$15 in a bag of clothes.
She moved to New York City, andthat's where Marsha P Johnson
was born.
The P, she often said, stoodfor pay it no mind.
(10:28):
It became her mantra, hershield, her motto, a way to move
through the world on her ownterms, not just surviving, but
declaring her right to existwith pride.
She didn't just show out, shechanged the whole damn fucking
(10:53):
scene.
This is where Marsha took herstand.
So let's connect the dots.
We talked about StonewallUprising earlier, about the rage
, the pushback, the fire, theprotests and the first Pride
(11:16):
Parade.
Well, marsha P Johnson didn'tjust walk through all that, she
lived it, she advocated for it,she fought against it, not only
for herself but for others.
Not long after the protests,marsha teamed up with her sister
(11:39):
in the struggle, sylvia Rivera,and together they co-founded
STAR Street Transvestite ActionRevolutionaries in 1970.
Now if you've listened to ourseason premiere, when Power
Fears Truth, the Story of FredHampton, this is gonna sound
(12:00):
familiar.
The Black Panther Party set upfree breakfast programs,
community clinics and patrolsbecause they knew the system
wasn't built to protect them orsupply them with the necessary
resources that others naturallygot.
(12:22):
So Marsha and Sylvia did theexact same thing, but for trans
and queer youth.
Star was a radical act of care Aplace to sleep, food to eat, a
community to belong to.
They ran it out of a bustedapartment in East Village.
(12:44):
No grants, no big donors, justtheir heart, their hustle and
hope.
Marsha basically became thedrag mother, not just in title,
but she also acted it out.
(13:05):
She looked out for kids who hadbeen kicked out, left behind or
overlooked.
People called her the Saint ofChristopher Street, and it
wasn't just a nickname.
She was like the Mother Teresa,she was the Gandhi.
That's who she was, andeveryone looked up to her
(13:30):
Because she was the type ofperson that would give you away
her last dollar and she sharedher food and walked the streets
reminding people that theymattered.
So this is actually one of theshows that I've been meaning to
get around to watching, but Idon't know.
If you guys ever watch Pose,then you already know that this
(13:56):
isn't fiction, chosen familieslike Star were real and there
were lifelines for people in theworld that weren't accepted.
That show gives everyone aglimpse of what Marsha and
Sylvia were doing decadesearlier.
(14:18):
And when the AIDS crisis hithard, marsha didn't just leave.
She joined the AIDS Coalitionto Unleash Power, also known as
ACT UP, a direct action groupdemanding people living with HIV
and AIDS were seen treated withcare and respect, as well as
(14:41):
protected.
They were putting pressure onpoliticians, calling out
pharmaceutical companies anddemanding access to equal care
or just care in general.
Marsha wasn't just a fighter.
She was also an artist.
She performed with the dragtroupe known as Hot Peaches,
(15:05):
bringing in beauty and power tothe stage.
Bringing in beauty and power tothe stage.
She even caught the eye of AndyWarhol, who featured her in his
Ladies and Gentlemen, serieshighlighting the boldness of
drag queens and trans women whocouldn't be simply erased.
(15:25):
Just like Fred Hampton believedin the people's power and care
as resistance and building whatthe system refused to give.
And just like Fred, marsha'sstory didn't end with
(15:45):
celebration it ended withsilence and questions.
Before we get into the nextchapter of Marsha's story, I
just want to take a moment, asyour host, to share something
from the heart.
I know people come from allkinds of backgrounds and beliefs
(16:10):
and I always want to honor that.
But one message that shows upin so many religions and value
systems is the call to treatothers with kindness, with
decency, with respect.
Others with kindness, withdecency, with respect.
(16:35):
You don't always have to agreewith someone's path to treat
them like a human being.
That's just basic.
You know, I personally may notalways see eye to eye with
somebody.
I may not have the samepolitical views or religious
views.
The same political views orreligious views.
If you come to me with respect,if you live your life without
(16:56):
harming others, without doingsomething that's bad and that
doesn't go against my morals orvalues, I'm going to treat you
with the same dignity.
I reciprocate the same behavior.
That's just me.
Character matters to me.
(17:16):
If someone's character is ugly,that is what speaks volumes,
not their gender, not theirbeliefs, not who they love.
I'm not saying that I don'thave my opinions on certain
things I do, but I also believein giving people their own space
(17:41):
for growth.
There's a clip on social mediathat's been going around lately.
It's a clip with Arsenio Hallfrom the Arsenio Hall Show.
I don't know if you guys knowArsenio Hall, but Arsenio Hall
is the actor that played inComing to America.
He played Eddie Murphy's friend.
He also had a show back in the90s similar to Oprah's the
(18:05):
Arsenio Hall Show.
He was being interrupted bywhite gay protesters in the
audience and his response hesaid something that has always
stuck with me.
He said I'm black, I'm thebiggest minority you know, and
(18:42):
what he meant was because heknows what it's like to be
judged, what it's like to beoppressed, mistreated.
He himself could never turnaround and do that to someone
else.
If you haven't seen it, go lookit up on YouTube.
Just type in Arsenio Hallaudience, interrupt show or
something like that, and you'llsee the clip for yourself.
But that clip speaks on why, asa person of color or someone
that comes from a marginalizedcommunity, why would you turn
(19:07):
around and do the same thing tosomeone else is what he was
pointing out.
So for the folks listening,especially parents, especially
people of faith, I know it mightbe hard when your child doesn't
walk the path that youenvisioned.
But if your child isn't hurtinganyone, like they're not a
(19:28):
serial killer, didn't beatsomeone, they're not in a gang,
if they're just being themselves, just being free, then how bad
is the path really?
Is it bad enough to lose themforever?
Enough to lose them forever?
(19:57):
If someone's identity has noimpact on your life, why respond
with hate?
You can't claim to stand forlove or for righteousness and
still treat others like theydon't deserve to exist.
I would love to hear yourthoughts in the comments below
and please make sure that you'rerespectful.
At the end of the day,conversation matters, but so
(20:20):
does respect, and I would liketo maintain that Anyhow.
The next part of this storyisn't easy.
It's where the joy in Marsha'sstory takes a very sharp turn.
One night in July of 92, rainhad passed through.
(20:46):
Just earlier the air was stillthick from the summer heat, but
by morning the skies had cleared.
In the Hudson it shimmeredbeneath the warm rising sun.
It felt like any other day.
Until the news broke Marsha PJohnson's body was found in the
(21:11):
river floating not too far fromthe Christopher Street piers, a
place where she once laughed,danced and organized, where she
mothered a whole community theworld tried to forget.
Police arrived, they took aswift, swift look and ruled it a
(21:32):
suicide.
There was no real investigation, no deep dive and no fucks
given.
Just another case quicklyclosed.
No real investigation, no deepdive, but Marsha's community.
They knew something wasn'tright.
(21:54):
She had been in good spiritsjust days earlier.
She had plans and she had justcome from pride.
Days earlier she told friendsshe was being followed and
harassed by men near the piers.
Witnesses said she'd been in aheated argument just two nights
(22:17):
before with a local man from theneighborhood, Someone who
reportedly hurled slurs at herduring a confrontation, and this
person would later brag abouthurting a drag queen named
Marsha.
There were also reports of herbeing harassed by a group known
(22:40):
in the area, guys who had areputation for robbing people.
But even with all of thesewitnesses, there were no names
released.
But to her chosen family thisfelt like a warning that, even
(23:02):
after everything that theyfought for, even though, even
though they've madecontributions, black trans lives
could still be taken, couldstill be erased, but her people
didn't let that happen.
They continued to rally,protest.
(23:25):
They refused to let her namejust fade.
Protests.
They refused to let her namejust fade.
They said it louder becauseMarsha Payne, no Mind Johnson,
didn't live life quietly and hercommunity.
(23:51):
Marsha's story isn't isolated.
Since 2013, at least 308transgendered women have lost
their lives to fatal violencehere in the US, according to the
Human Rights Campaign.
But the numbers tell somethinggreater, because 84% of all
(24:16):
trans and gender-expensivevictims were people of color,
and those victims, blacktransgendered women, made up
majority, about 61%.
That's more than six out ofevery ten lives lost.
(24:36):
These individuals weren't justmurdered, they were failed.
They were failed especially bythe media that never thought to
put their names out therecompared to other victims.
And this isn't a new pattern,it's systemic, a pattern that
(25:03):
started long before Marsha andone that even continues till
this day.
And we're seeing it right now,because when you live in an
intersection that we live in insociety, especially being black
or being LGBT, being poor youdon't just face one single
(25:30):
threat.
You face all of them all atonce, from the moment Marsha's
body was pulled from the HudsonRiver on that warm July morning
in 1992, the official responsewas cold.
In footage later released byVictoria Cruz, an LGBTQ activist
(25:54):
and investigator with theAnti-Violence Project, marsha is
seen just days before her death, smiling but honest.
She basically tells Cruz thatshe doesn't think that law
enforcement agencies do a wellof a job into investigating
(26:17):
murders involving the LGBTQcommunity.
She goes on to say that whenyou're gay, gay, it takes
forever.
I always say tomorrow is notpromised to me.
This is, in a way, she'sforeshadowing her own death, and
(26:40):
it's sad because she obviouslyknew that this system wasn't
going to help her, or the systemback then, and she was right.
Randy Wicker, marsha's roommateand close friend, described how
her body laid in the streethours on the hot pavement, her
(27:05):
blood just soaking into theasphalt.
No urgency, no dignity.
Not even the coroner's van wason time.
It was a makeshift memorialthat grew in that same spot.
Flowers were laid, but justicenever showed up.
(27:28):
Wicker gathered firsthandaccounts.
Marsha's body had a visiblewound at the back of her head A
hole, someone said, but amedical examiner later chalked
it up to post-mortemdecomposition in water.
(27:50):
And just like that the policewalked away.
But the streets, you know, thestreets talk and one of those
people was Beanie Tony.
He was a local around the areaand he told Wicker he had seen
(28:13):
Marsha arguing with man namedMichael, a neighbor with facial
scars and a known temper.
Michael had shouted slurs ather, so I'm guessing that's the
individual that was at the barlater.
That was basically bragging toanyone that would even pay him
(28:35):
any mind that he had killedMarsha and apparently Tony had
tried to report it and the NYPDnever followed up.
There were other reports andeven with Wicker writing to law
(28:56):
enforcement to look further intothe investigation.
It's not surprising becausethroughout the early 90s the
peers became known for somethingelse Queer bodies turning up in
the water, and it was withincreasing frequency.
(29:19):
They were often trans, oftenblack or brown and almost always
their cases dismissed.
But the louder the communitygot, the more the system tried
to sweep it under the rug.
(29:40):
Still, randy Wicker didn't stop.
As I said, he wrote letters,but he also stood on corners
with petitions, collectedsignatures, held signs that read
Justice for Marsha.
She was black, she was trans,she was a sex worker.
(30:03):
In the NYPD's eyes she was anon-person, and Marsha wasn't
alone in that either.
Jesus Jesse Santiago wasanother trans person, and he was
murdered in the Bronx.
Eyewitnesses heard the slursand told NYPD this when they
(30:28):
were questioned.
But again, nypd refused tolabel it a hate crime.
They said that the killer wasdrunk, said the slurs were
indiscriminate, the patternwasn't hard to see, but
(30:51):
everything else was just goingbackwards.
This wasn't just one death.
This was a rhythm of erasureignored leads, missed witnesses,
excuses after excuses and justsilence, until finally, in 2012,
after two decades of communitypressure, petition, journalism
(31:16):
and activism, the NYPD reopenedMarsha's case.
Her cause of death was changedfrom suicide to undetermined.
To this day, the case remainsunsolved and the question still
hangs in the air, much like thefog over the Hudson what really
(31:40):
happened to Marsha Payette, noMind Johnson.
At this point, I find myselfcircling the same question.
Not just what happened, but howdid they let this happen?
Again and again, when you stepback and look at the facts, a
few things stand out.
(32:01):
Marsha's body was pulled fromthe Hudson.
She had a wound, possibly bluntforce trauma, on the back of
her head, as we've already heard, witnesses said there was
confrontation, there was threats, there were confessions and
there was harassment.
So the question is where wasthe follow-up, where was the
(32:26):
urgency?
Something that I also wanted tofind out, but I couldn't, when
I was looking up the cases, findout.
But I couldn't, when I waslooking up the cases, I couldn't
find out if there was anyoutside examiner, outside from
law enforcement, if the familyor friends went to a
(32:46):
professional outside of the NYPD.
I wanted to know did anyoneadvocate for a second autopsy
before she was cremated?
Because if they didn't, theneven that final layer of truth
is gone.
And I get it, she was in theriver right, so maybe evidence
(33:14):
could have been washed away, dnacould have been degraded.
But her clothes, her personalbelongings I also wonder if
those were ever tested for DNAleft by someone else other than
(33:34):
Marsha.
When we zoom further back, we'relooking at the other bodies
that started turning up in theHudson around the same time and
it starts to feel calculated notnecessarily by one serial
killer, by a system and alocation that made it easy to
(33:57):
prey on the marginalized.
Think about it Same area, sametime period, same kind of
victims, queer, trans, oftenblack, brown, and they had
similar injuries.
Could it have been a predator?
(34:17):
Possibly.
Could it have been multiplepeople using the piers like a
hunting ground Also possible.
But the most chilling part isthat none of that mattered
because nobody with power,nobody in the public service was
(34:43):
looking.
This wasn't just one personloss.
This was about a city thatdidn't protect her, a city that
didn't protect queers, a systemthat didn't investigate her case
or any other case like hers,and a world that struggles to
(35:06):
say her life mattered.
So what do we do with all ofthis?
We ask louder, we supporttrans-led justice organizations,
we educate ourselves, we lookat every case the system said
(35:30):
was just another suicide and say, nah, show me the truth,
because the fog may still hangover the Hudson, but we don't
stop until we see through it.
Before we close, I want to takea moment to speak directly to
(35:54):
my LGBTQ noir seekers,especially those who felt the
weight of invisibility,injustice and silence.
If Marsha's story moved you, ifit lit something in you, there
are ways to carry that forward.
(36:15):
Lit something in you, there areways to carry that forward.
And now to all my listeners hereare some organizations doing
the work on the ground and inthe courts every single day.
We have the Marsha P JohnsonInstitute and you could go, look
that up.
On marshaporg, it was createdin Marsha's honor.
(36:39):
This organization basicallyprotects and defends the human
rights of Black trans peoplethrough organizing, advocacy and
community support.
And we also have theTransgender Law Center, and you
can find more information ontheir website on
transgenderlawcenterorg Fightingfor legal protections and
(37:03):
policy changes that affirm translives Because, as we know,
rights shouldn't depend onvisibility alone.
And then, lastly, we have theOkra Project, and you can find
that on the okraprojectcom.
They provide nourishment,mental health resources and
(37:27):
holistic care for Black transfolks, with a focus on healing
and dignity.
So if you're ever wondering howto help give, where you can
speak when it matters.
It doesn't take a headline tomake a difference.
(37:47):
It just takes action, intentionand heart, because so much of
what Marsha stood for wasn'tabout being praised.
It was about being seen,respected and loved.
She gave when the world gaveher nothing.
(38:09):
She showed up for the forgotten.
It's a legacy that still pushesus to fight harder, to love
louder and to protect each otherbetter.
She wore flowers.
She started fires.
Marsha P Johnson wasn't just asymbol.
(38:31):
She was a spark, a movement anda reminder that queer lives are
sacred and they deserve truthand not just tribute.
In a world that punished people just for being
who they are, one voice stoodout bold, beautiful and
unbothered, with flowers in herhair, boldness in her, her walk,
and move through the world withfire in her soul.
Damn, that sounded likesomething Maya Angelou would say
(00:33):
.
But anyways, her name wasMarsha P Johnson, and tonight
we're following her journey fromprotests to the unanswered
questions that still linger.
Welcome back to anotherpowerful episode of Island Noir
(01:01):
podcast.
I'm your host, nia Starr.
Island Noir podcast.
I'm your host, nia Starr.
Today we're diving into a storythat's part celebration, part
tragedy and, as always, alltruth.
But before we get into whoMarsha P Johnson was, we need to
talk about the world she wasborn into, because to really
(01:26):
understand her as a person, wehave to understand the journey,
the war she walked through justto even exist during her time.
This episode we're pulling backthe layers on her life, a life
that sparked change and a deaththat still demands answers.
(01:52):
We'll walk through her earlyyears and her rise as a
revolutionary in the queerliberation movement and the
mystery surrounding her finaldays, and in all of it, her
(02:18):
laughter, her lipstick and herlegacy.
We're asking the same questionher community still asks today?
What really happened to Marshatoday?
What really happened to Marsha?
Mid-20th century America wasn'tjust unkind to queer people, it
was hostile.
Same-sex relationships wereillegal in nearly every state.
(02:39):
Dressing up outside of yourassigned gender that alone could
get you arrested or worse,harassed, beaten, humiliated.
Queer bars were raidedconstantly, brutalize the people
(03:01):
, drag them out, and if you'repoor, black or trans, you
weren't just pushed aside, youwere targeted.
Now most people point to theStonewall Uprising in 1969 as
(03:23):
the beginning of queerresistance, and yeah, it was a
turning point.
But there's more to it.
During my research on this, Ifound it very interesting.
The Stonewall Inn was a smallbar in New York City, greenwich
Village.
It wasn't fancy, it didn't evenhave a liquor license,
(03:48):
apparently but it was one of thefew places where queer folks,
especially trans people, dragqueens and homeless youth could
gather without immediate fear,or so they thought.
That was until the night ofJune 28, 1969.
(04:13):
Around 1.20 in the morning,police raided the bar A routine
shake-up, but this time it was abit different, because this
time the people in the barfought back, the patrons refused
to go quietly and by this timecrowds started to gather outside
(04:39):
and bottles were being thrown.
What started as a raid turnedinto six nights of protests.
The streets erupted with chaosand rage, but in a way, in a
sense, they also united a lot ofof the queer community and
(05:03):
their allies Drag queens, transwomen, street kids, everyone.
They were all there on thefront lines facing the riot cops
, with all geared up withnothing but heels, fists and
fury.
And while Marsha P Johnson hasoften been credited with
(05:27):
throwing the first brick, evenshe said in interviews that
wasn't quite how it went down,but the fact that she was there,
she was part of that fire andafterward she kept it burning,
because Stonewall didn't endwith just broken windows and
(05:51):
ramming doors.
It became a movement Becausewithin a year, the first Pride
March took place, new activistgroups formed and the fight for
lgbtq liberation was no longerjust whispers and back alleys.
(06:12):
It was loud, it was out front,it was impossible to ignore.
Those seeds of resistance wereplanted long before stonewall.
Back in the Harlem Renaissance,I learned that Black queer
artists like Gladys Bentley andRichard Bruce Nugent were
(06:34):
already bending the rules,creating, performing, living out
loud in a world that wantedthem to just stay quiet and stay
out of sight, out of mind.
They challenged racism andhomophobia with every line,
every lyric, every look.
(06:55):
Marsha P Johnson didn't comeout of nowhere.
She came from that specificlegacy.
She came from that specificlegacy and just when you, the
community, might catch a break,another war hits, the AIDS
epidemic, entire neighborhoodswiped out, friends, lovers,
(07:19):
whole chosen families gone.
The government ignored it,hospitals turned people away.
The media barely wrote about it, but through it all, marsha
stood as a black trans, poor andpowerful.
(07:40):
Now that we've set the stage,let's talk about the woman who
lit a spark.
Before she became Marsha PJohnson, she was known as
Malcolm Michaels Jr, born August24, 1945, in Elizabeth, new
(08:02):
Jersey.
She was the fifth of sevenchildren in a working-class
Christian home.
Her father, malcolm Sr, workedat a General Motors plant and
helped support their largefamily.
Not much is publicly knownabout their relationship, but it
could mean it was just reallyprivate or simply not discussed
(08:27):
as much.
Marsha's mother, alberta, was adevoted parent but also held
strong religious beliefs thatshaped her view of Marsha's
identity when she eventuallycame out.
When she eventually came out,according to Marsha, her mother
(08:49):
once expressed disapproval ofher gender expression in a
deeply hurtful way, but still,marsha never spoke about her
mother with resentment.
Marsha wore a cross necklacethroughout her life and often
spoke about her own faith.
Despite the judgment she faced,she still had her own
(09:13):
connection to spirituality andit remained strong.
From an early age, marshaexpressed herself in ways that
challenged traditional gendernorms.
As a child, she explained thatshe experienced significant
trauma which affected how sheeventually navigated the world,
(09:40):
and for a time she suppressedparts of herself for safety, and
a lot of it has to do with herreligious upbringing as well.
After graduating high school in1963, she left New Jersey
behind and, as you can imagine,she left because of her family's
(10:05):
disapproval of her lifestyle,and when she left she only had
$15 in a bag of clothes.
She moved to New York City, andthat's where Marsha P Johnson
was born.
The P, she often said, stoodfor pay it no mind.
(10:28):
It became her mantra, hershield, her motto, a way to move
through the world on her ownterms, not just surviving, but
declaring her right to existwith pride.
She didn't just show out, shechanged the whole damn fucking
(10:53):
scene.
This is where Marsha took herstand.
So let's connect the dots.
We talked about StonewallUprising earlier, about the rage
, the pushback, the fire, theprotests and the first Pride
(11:16):
Parade.
Well, marsha P Johnson didn'tjust walk through all that, she
lived it, she advocated for it,she fought against it, not only
for herself but for others.
Not long after the protests,marsha teamed up with her sister
(11:39):
in the struggle, sylvia Rivera,and together they co-founded
STAR Street Transvestite ActionRevolutionaries in 1970.
Now if you've listened to ourseason premiere, when Power
Fears Truth, the Story of FredHampton, this is gonna sound
(12:00):
familiar.
The Black Panther Party set upfree breakfast programs,
community clinics and patrolsbecause they knew the system
wasn't built to protect them orsupply them with the necessary
resources that others naturallygot.
(12:22):
So Marsha and Sylvia did theexact same thing, but for trans
and queer youth.
Star was a radical act of care Aplace to sleep, food to eat, a
community to belong to.
They ran it out of a bustedapartment in East Village.
(12:44):
No grants, no big donors, justtheir heart, their hustle and
hope.
Marsha basically became thedrag mother, not just in title,
but she also acted it out.
(13:05):
She looked out for kids who hadbeen kicked out, left behind or
overlooked.
People called her the Saint ofChristopher Street, and it
wasn't just a nickname.
She was like the Mother Teresa,she was the Gandhi.
That's who she was, andeveryone looked up to her
(13:30):
Because she was the type ofperson that would give you away
her last dollar and she sharedher food and walked the streets
reminding people that theymattered.
So this is actually one of theshows that I've been meaning to
get around to watching, but Idon't know.
If you guys ever watch Pose,then you already know that this
(13:56):
isn't fiction, chosen familieslike Star were real and there
were lifelines for people in theworld that weren't accepted.
That show gives everyone aglimpse of what Marsha and
Sylvia were doing decadesearlier.
(14:18):
And when the AIDS crisis hithard, marsha didn't just leave.
She joined the AIDS Coalitionto Unleash Power, also known as
ACT UP, a direct action groupdemanding people living with HIV
and AIDS were seen treated withcare and respect, as well as
(14:41):
protected.
They were putting pressure onpoliticians, calling out
pharmaceutical companies anddemanding access to equal care
or just care in general.
Marsha wasn't just a fighter.
She was also an artist.
She performed with the dragtroupe known as Hot Peaches,
(15:05):
bringing in beauty and power tothe stage.
Bringing in beauty and power tothe stage.
She even caught the eye of AndyWarhol, who featured her in his
Ladies and Gentlemen, serieshighlighting the boldness of
drag queens and trans women whocouldn't be simply erased.
(15:25):
Just like Fred Hampton believedin the people's power and care
as resistance and building whatthe system refused to give.
And just like Fred, marsha'sstory didn't end with
(15:45):
celebration it ended withsilence and questions.
Before we get into the nextchapter of Marsha's story, I
just want to take a moment, asyour host, to share something
from the heart.
I know people come from allkinds of backgrounds and beliefs
(16:10):
and I always want to honor that.
But one message that shows upin so many religions and value
systems is the call to treatothers with kindness, with
decency, with respect.
Others with kindness, withdecency, with respect.
(16:35):
You don't always have to agreewith someone's path to treat
them like a human being.
That's just basic.
You know, I personally may notalways see eye to eye with
somebody.
I may not have the samepolitical views or religious
views.
The same political views orreligious views.
If you come to me with respect,if you live your life without
(16:56):
harming others, without doingsomething that's bad and that
doesn't go against my morals orvalues, I'm going to treat you
with the same dignity.
I reciprocate the same behavior.
That's just me.
Character matters to me.
(17:16):
If someone's character is ugly,that is what speaks volumes,
not their gender, not theirbeliefs, not who they love.
I'm not saying that I don'thave my opinions on certain
things I do, but I also believein giving people their own space
(17:41):
for growth.
There's a clip on social mediathat's been going around lately.
It's a clip with Arsenio Hallfrom the Arsenio Hall Show.
I don't know if you guys knowArsenio Hall, but Arsenio Hall
is the actor that played inComing to America.
He played Eddie Murphy's friend.
He also had a show back in the90s similar to Oprah's the
(18:05):
Arsenio Hall Show.
He was being interrupted bywhite gay protesters in the
audience and his response hesaid something that has always
stuck with me.
He said I'm black, I'm thebiggest minority you know, and
(18:42):
what he meant was because heknows what it's like to be
judged, what it's like to beoppressed, mistreated.
He himself could never turnaround and do that to someone
else.
If you haven't seen it, go lookit up on YouTube.
Just type in Arsenio Hallaudience, interrupt show or
something like that, and you'llsee the clip for yourself.
But that clip speaks on why, asa person of color or someone
that comes from a marginalizedcommunity, why would you turn
(19:07):
around and do the same thing tosomeone else is what he was
pointing out.
So for the folks listening,especially parents, especially
people of faith, I know it mightbe hard when your child doesn't
walk the path that youenvisioned.
But if your child isn't hurtinganyone, like they're not a
(19:28):
serial killer, didn't beatsomeone, they're not in a gang,
if they're just being themselves, just being free, then how bad
is the path really?
Is it bad enough to lose themforever?
Enough to lose them forever?
(19:57):
If someone's identity has noimpact on your life, why respond
with hate?
You can't claim to stand forlove or for righteousness and
still treat others like theydon't deserve to exist.
I would love to hear yourthoughts in the comments below
and please make sure that you'rerespectful.
At the end of the day,conversation matters, but so
(20:20):
does respect, and I would liketo maintain that Anyhow.
The next part of this storyisn't easy.
It's where the joy in Marsha'sstory takes a very sharp turn.
One night in July of 92, rainhad passed through.
(20:46):
Just earlier the air was stillthick from the summer heat, but
by morning the skies had cleared.
In the Hudson it shimmeredbeneath the warm rising sun.
It felt like any other day.
Until the news broke Marsha PJohnson's body was found in the
(21:11):
river floating not too far fromthe Christopher Street piers, a
place where she once laughed,danced and organized, where she
mothered a whole community theworld tried to forget.
Police arrived, they took aswift, swift look and ruled it a
(21:32):
suicide.
There was no real investigation, no deep dive and no fucks
given.
Just another case quicklyclosed.
No real investigation, no deepdive, but Marsha's community.
They knew something wasn'tright.
(21:54):
She had been in good spiritsjust days earlier.
She had plans and she had justcome from pride.
Days earlier she told friendsshe was being followed and
harassed by men near the piers.
Witnesses said she'd been in aheated argument just two nights
(22:17):
before with a local man from theneighborhood, Someone who
reportedly hurled slurs at herduring a confrontation, and this
person would later brag abouthurting a drag queen named
Marsha.
There were also reports of herbeing harassed by a group known
(22:40):
in the area, guys who had areputation for robbing people.
But even with all of thesewitnesses, there were no names
released.
But to her chosen family thisfelt like a warning that, even
(23:02):
after everything that theyfought for, even though, even
though they've madecontributions, black trans lives
could still be taken, couldstill be erased, but her people
didn't let that happen.
They continued to rally,protest.
(23:25):
They refused to let her namejust fade.
Protests.
They refused to let her namejust fade.
They said it louder becauseMarsha Payne, no Mind Johnson,
didn't live life quietly and hercommunity.
(23:51):
Marsha's story isn't isolated.
Since 2013, at least 308transgendered women have lost
their lives to fatal violencehere in the US, according to the
Human Rights Campaign.
But the numbers tell somethinggreater, because 84% of all
(24:16):
trans and gender-expensivevictims were people of color,
and those victims, blacktransgendered women, made up
majority, about 61%.
That's more than six out ofevery ten lives lost.
(24:36):
These individuals weren't justmurdered, they were failed.
They were failed especially bythe media that never thought to
put their names out therecompared to other victims.
And this isn't a new pattern,it's systemic, a pattern that
(25:03):
started long before Marsha andone that even continues till
this day.
And we're seeing it right now,because when you live in an
intersection that we live in insociety, especially being black
or being LGBT, being poor youdon't just face one single
(25:30):
threat.
You face all of them all atonce, from the moment Marsha's
body was pulled from the HudsonRiver on that warm July morning
in 1992, the official responsewas cold.
In footage later released byVictoria Cruz, an LGBTQ activist
(25:54):
and investigator with theAnti-Violence Project, marsha is
seen just days before her death, smiling but honest.
She basically tells Cruz thatshe doesn't think that law
enforcement agencies do a wellof a job into investigating
(26:17):
murders involving the LGBTQcommunity.
She goes on to say that whenyou're gay, gay, it takes
forever.
I always say tomorrow is notpromised to me.
This is, in a way, she'sforeshadowing her own death, and
(26:40):
it's sad because she obviouslyknew that this system wasn't
going to help her, or the systemback then, and she was right.
Randy Wicker, marsha's roommateand close friend, described how
her body laid in the streethours on the hot pavement, her
(27:05):
blood just soaking into theasphalt.
No urgency, no dignity.
Not even the coroner's van wason time.
It was a makeshift memorialthat grew in that same spot.
Flowers were laid, but justicenever showed up.
(27:28):
Wicker gathered firsthandaccounts.
Marsha's body had a visiblewound at the back of her head A
hole, someone said, but amedical examiner later chalked
it up to post-mortemdecomposition in water.
(27:50):
And just like that the policewalked away.
But the streets, you know, thestreets talk and one of those
people was Beanie Tony.
He was a local around the areaand he told Wicker he had seen
(28:13):
Marsha arguing with man namedMichael, a neighbor with facial
scars and a known temper.
Michael had shouted slurs ather, so I'm guessing that's the
individual that was at the barlater.
That was basically bragging toanyone that would even pay him
(28:35):
any mind that he had killedMarsha and apparently Tony had
tried to report it and the NYPDnever followed up.
There were other reports andeven with Wicker writing to law
(28:56):
enforcement to look further intothe investigation.
It's not surprising becausethroughout the early 90s the
peers became known for somethingelse Queer bodies turning up in
the water, and it was withincreasing frequency.
(29:19):
They were often trans, oftenblack or brown and almost always
their cases dismissed.
But the louder the communitygot, the more the system tried
to sweep it under the rug.
(29:40):
Still, randy Wicker didn't stop.
As I said, he wrote letters,but he also stood on corners
with petitions, collectedsignatures, held signs that read
Justice for Marsha.
She was black, she was trans,she was a sex worker.
(30:03):
In the NYPD's eyes she was anon-person, and Marsha wasn't
alone in that either.
Jesus Jesse Santiago wasanother trans person, and he was
murdered in the Bronx.
Eyewitnesses heard the slursand told NYPD this when they
(30:28):
were questioned.
But again, nypd refused tolabel it a hate crime.
They said that the killer wasdrunk, said the slurs were
indiscriminate, the patternwasn't hard to see, but
(30:51):
everything else was just goingbackwards.
This wasn't just one death.
This was a rhythm of erasureignored leads, missed witnesses,
excuses after excuses and justsilence, until finally, in 2012,
after two decades of communitypressure, petition, journalism
(31:16):
and activism, the NYPD reopenedMarsha's case.
Her cause of death was changedfrom suicide to undetermined.
To this day, the case remainsunsolved and the question still
hangs in the air, much like thefog over the Hudson what really
(31:40):
happened to Marsha Payette, noMind Johnson.
At this point, I find myselfcircling the same question.
Not just what happened, but howdid they let this happen?
Again and again, when you stepback and look at the facts, a
few things stand out.
(32:01):
Marsha's body was pulled fromthe Hudson.
She had a wound, possibly bluntforce trauma, on the back of
her head, as we've already heard, witnesses said there was
confrontation, there was threats, there were confessions and
there was harassment.
So the question is where wasthe follow-up, where was the
(32:26):
urgency?
Something that I also wanted tofind out, but I couldn't, when
I was looking up the cases, findout.
But I couldn't, when I waslooking up the cases, I couldn't
find out if there was anyoutside examiner, outside from
law enforcement, if the familyor friends went to a
(32:46):
professional outside of the NYPD.
I wanted to know did anyoneadvocate for a second autopsy
before she was cremated?
Because if they didn't, theneven that final layer of truth
is gone.
And I get it, she was in theriver right, so maybe evidence
(33:14):
could have been washed away, dnacould have been degraded.
But her clothes, her personalbelongings I also wonder if
those were ever tested for DNAleft by someone else other than
(33:34):
Marsha.
When we zoom further back, we'relooking at the other bodies
that started turning up in theHudson around the same time and
it starts to feel calculated notnecessarily by one serial
killer, by a system and alocation that made it easy to
(33:57):
prey on the marginalized.
Think about it Same area, sametime period, same kind of
victims, queer, trans, oftenblack, brown, and they had
similar injuries.
Could it have been a predator?
(34:17):
Possibly.
Could it have been multiplepeople using the piers like a
hunting ground Also possible.
But the most chilling part isthat none of that mattered
because nobody with power,nobody in the public service was
(34:43):
looking.
This wasn't just one personloss.
This was about a city thatdidn't protect her, a city that
didn't protect queers, a systemthat didn't investigate her case
or any other case like hers,and a world that struggles to
(35:06):
say her life mattered.
So what do we do with all ofthis?
We ask louder, we supporttrans-led justice organizations,
we educate ourselves, we lookat every case the system said
(35:30):
was just another suicide and say, nah, show me the truth,
because the fog may still hangover the Hudson, but we don't
stop until we see through it.
Before we close, I want to takea moment to speak directly to
(35:54):
my LGBTQ noir seekers,especially those who felt the
weight of invisibility,injustice and silence.
If Marsha's story moved you, ifit lit something in you, there
are ways to carry that forward.
(36:15):
Lit something in you, there areways to carry that forward.
And now to all my listeners hereare some organizations doing
the work on the ground and inthe courts every single day.
We have the Marsha P JohnsonInstitute and you could go, look
that up.
On marshaporg, it was createdin Marsha's honor.
(36:39):
This organization basicallyprotects and defends the human
rights of Black trans peoplethrough organizing, advocacy and
community support.
And we also have theTransgender Law Center, and you
can find more information ontheir website on
transgenderlawcenterorg Fightingfor legal protections and
(37:03):
policy changes that affirm translives Because, as we know,
rights shouldn't depend onvisibility alone.
And then, lastly, we have theOkra Project, and you can find
that on the okraprojectcom.
They provide nourishment,mental health resources and
(37:27):
holistic care for Black transfolks, with a focus on healing
and dignity.
So if you're ever wondering howto help give, where you can
speak when it matters.
It doesn't take a headline tomake a difference.
(37:47):
It just takes action, intentionand heart, because so much of
what Marsha stood for wasn'tabout being praised.
It was about being seen,respected and loved.
She gave when the world gaveher nothing.
(38:09):
She showed up for the forgotten.
It's a legacy that still pushesus to fight harder, to love
louder and to protect each otherbetter.
She wore flowers.
She started fires.
Marsha P Johnson wasn't just asymbol.
(38:31):
She was a spark, a movement anda reminder that queer lives are
sacred and they deserve truthand not just tribute.
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