The Art Of Sacred Intimacy | 074 - It Has to Be Me

Episode Transcript
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Tess Masters (00:01):
Oh, Justin and London, thank you for holding space with me. I love your books so much, and the work that you're doing is so important. I love how you refer to yourselves as students and teachers of love. So one of the things that resonated so deeply with me in the books was you said we

(00:25):
attract partners who deny uslove as much as we deny them love. And it really pierced my soul and really resonated with me so London, I want to ask you what your life was like in terms of your relationship with self and relationship with others, and what brought you into this more conscious way of living

(00:52):
with that.

Londin Angel Winters (00:56):
I found this work pretty late in life, almost 40 and prior to that, I was a manifestation, Mama, you know, it might as touch. I think I had like, six different careers, because I would just decide what I was interested in, and then I would win an Emmy. You know, I won an Emmy, like,

(01:18):
in my early 20s, I I justachieved crazy accomplishments because I just knew how to manifest. I studied it. I was into it, and I loved being able to just take a bite out of the ass of life and create whatever I wanted. There was only one area where it really didn't work so hot, you know, and that was

(01:41):
in relationship, just kind of amiserable string of failures. You know, always wanted love, always gave in love, always cared about love, but just ended up in disasters or mundane or I was the breadwinner, carrying the person on my back. I even got into a marriage and ended up divorced, you know, I told the

(02:08):
person, it's me or the drugs.And they were like, great, it's the drugs. And we divorced, you know? I mean, and it was just like, wow, why am I having such a hard time in intimate love and so at one point in my life, like around 39 I think 38 No, 37 I just decided, You know what, I don't need another

(02:34):
accomplishment. It like, doesn'tfeel any different than the last one and what I really want to experience next out of this life is epic love, and I'm I'm going to do it, and I was really gifted to end up in a room unlike I had been in any other, which was a sacred sexuality room, Where instead of the name

(02:59):
of the game being, Create,Create, Create, Create. The name of the game was surrender. The name of the game was surrender, trust, soften, whoa. Like not my forte. And then what I found out is I had been denying my partners the gift of my own trust and softness and surrender and willingness to relax into as

(03:37):
they had been denying me theirleadership, their consistency, their penetrate penetrative ravishment. You know it was like really true that how you deny your lover is the reciprocal of how they deny you. And it was my own inability to actually like meet someone in the moment in full surrender was their

(04:01):
inability to be worthy of thatsurrender. And, you know, it's easy when you're in that boat to be like, there's no good man, or like, nobody's worth you know, I'm I lead myself better than they could ever lead me. Like, why would I put myself in anyone else's lame hands? You know? And it's all very believable when

(04:22):
you're manifest, when you'reactually, like, actively creating the denial of love because they aren't trustworthy. But what I found is when just speaking to myself as a woman, when a woman finds the ability to express and surrender and be deep in a moment like deeply connected to her body's wisdom

(04:48):
and unafraid to reveal thatacross her body and her feelings and her expression, it inspires a kind of partner that. What actually makes that possible? And this was my experience, and I immediately became very deeply committed to the work. Really shifted my gears. At first I thought, Oh, I got to give up

(05:15):
the career. And that was suchthat was such a bad idea. It was such a misunderstanding of the work, I later reclaimed the career, and my first book, The Awakened Woman's Guide to everlasting love, is truly about, how do you kick ass by day and throw your head back and wild surrender by night? And

(05:36):
that was when I really found theHoly Grail, because I got to be the badass that I am, and I also got to be this, like, wild lover with a man that I just like would lay my life down for. And that's truly the life that this work has given me, and it's never I've never gone back. Now I'm now, I'm in my mid 50s, and

(06:01):
it hasn't slowed down for asecond.

Oh, and it's just gonna keep opening, which is what you both teach so beautifully. So tell me about manifesting, Justin into your life and when you met each other, what that looked like for you, and then I went on

Unknown (06:24):
you Justin, what that was like for you.

I love the way you phrased that question, because manifesting Justin in my life, you know, you would think that's what I did, and that's what it sounds like I did, and that's not even remotely what I did. Because if you look at where Justin and I were at the day we met, I would have never
manifested

Unknown (06:47):
that in a million years,

not even a million years. I mean, like we were 14 years age difference. I was 14 years older than him. He was 24 four and dating and like, just pick of the litter guy, you know, like anyone he wanted. And when I sat down with him and met him for the first time as his friend, I just made a like, a

(07:16):
promise to myself that I wouldnever even get near that guy. No, that's like nothing I'm interested in. And the irony of the whole thing is that I wasn't manifesting love at that point. I was surrendering into the big fuck between me and God, you know, like I had found, I had found the ability to surrender

(07:41):
to creation. And I was so turnedon by that, and so deeply fulfilled that it really took me out of this idea of, like, manifesting a man. I wanted a man, but I didn't, like need Him. And so when Justin I met I was totally cool with them. I was just like, Yeah, this guy's doing his thing. You know, this

(08:04):
is probably what I was like at24 you know what I mean? Now I'm like, almost 40 like, I'm not in that place at all, and I didn't even judge him. But I definitely was like, Don't get near this guy. Well, we ended up being in an environment where we saw each other a lot, and we would just end up having these deep soul
talks. And I saw this side ofJustin. It was very different than the one, the like peacock that was cruising around LA, you know, I saw this side of him. That was the guy who'd been meditating since 11 years, or since what year he's been heading since he was a small child. Just found it on his own.

(08:45):
This guy's consciousness wasmind blowing. And when we would sit down and talk, he could feel that I could see him. So he showed himself to me, and I was dating the amazing men of my age, you know, very successful, like, I remember, at the time I met Justin, some guy was trying to invite me to quit my job and

(09:08):
go hang out with him on his 64foot yacht, you know. Like, come on, just give it all up and just come travel with me. You know, I'm not even committing to be your boyfriend, but let's just go have a good time, you know. And I had all of this stuff going on, but because I wasn't manifesting the man on paper,
creating the life I wanted, Iwas listening. I was just listening, and the listening kept bringing me back to this guy. This guy was the one that really put me back in my heels and melted my spine because his consciousness was huge. I mean, just like gravity itself and I just went heart, heartbeat by

(09:58):
heartbeat, breath by breath.What? What my heart was saying. My mind was screaming like, What in the world? This could never work. What are you thinking? How are you even going to meet his family? What are they going to think of this like elderly woman showing up at the family dinner? You know? I mean, nothing made
sense, but my heart knewsomething, and after a whole bunch of rigmarole that we went through, that I describe in detail in the book, we ended up together, and we couldn't be more suited for each other. And the reason why I say like I love that you asked me how I manifested him is if I had been

(10:37):
in any headspace of manifesting,I wouldn't have even remotely given him the time of day, nor would I have put up with all it took for us to end up together, like we went through a lot just to end up together. And because I was breath by breath with it all, it was just an it was just what it needed to be, one moment

(10:58):
to the next. And in hindsight,we, like ran an Iron Man, you know what I mean. But in the moment, it just felt like both of us just listening, just listening, just listening,

and living in surrender, totally 100%

and the moment being because I was living in surrender, the moment was so full I had, like, a patience that I wouldn't have had if I needed to get to an outcome and that. And then I'll just even say this, like, you know, I I didn't know what was going to happen around
motherhood and all of that. Andwhen I was hanging out with this guy was almost 40, I could have been panicking that I didn't have a kid. And you know, how could we ever like do a life? I just really trusted my heart. And you know, I think women in their 40s can really relate to what I'm saying. It's like, you

(11:53):
feel like dating needs to becomevery utilitarian. Gotta find the guy that I can have a kid with. This is my last chance. I just let it all go. And then I got pregnant naturally at 47 had a home birth at 48 I mean, you can't write this stuff. You can only surrender into it, you know what I mean?

Oh, yeah, so Justin, tell me about your path to surrendering. And moving into a different way of being in your 20s, as you moved with Justin with London, pardon me, in this journey,

Justin Patrick Pierce (12:37):
surrender didn't become a real aspect of my life until much later, when
London and I first met and wespent time together. We decided to date early on, and she was a master manifester, and so she had more money than me. She had so many more accomplishments than me. I was just like playing in bands and a personal trainer. I had nothing to show for my life. I had literally, not too

(13:20):
long before meeting her, I wasliving on someone's couch in LA. I had, like, just gotten my own dumpy apartment with my roommate. We couldn't have been in more different phases of life. And so I met London, and once we decided to, like, explore relationship together, we started studying polarity,

(13:45):
sacred, intimacy, all of that.And one of the first things that I had learned there was just like, oh, you need to be masculine. And to be masculine, you better, you know, pull yourself up, you better. Get a job, earn more money than her, start producing, start providing the whole nine. So I was like,

(14:06):
Oh, I'd never heard of thatbefore. That's an interesting idea. Let's do it. And so I made a commitment, because I love those kinds of challenges. I was just like, Yeah, I'm up for it. Let's do it. So over the course of maybe three years, I started manifesting jobs, creating jobs. I created a private training

(14:28):
business high end clientele. Imanifested a job that didn't even exist before, in a luxury real estate company in Southern California, and I had become the lead Social Media Marketing Director for three locations which that Job didn't even exist. I just kind of walked in. I was like, This is what I want

(14:49):
to do here. Got the gig. So Iwas like, traveling in a band performing. I had all these different jobs that I was doing at 1.4 or five different jobs. Eventually I got to the point of earning more. Money than London. And I was like, Yeah, I'm doing it. I'm becoming masculine, and so we're we got all into this
momentum of life together. And Ihad this vision of just like, meanwhile, we are practicing sacred intimacy. But we never imagined doing this for our career. We never imagined this would become, we were like, in a different track, but we had our practice which we loved. So all the while, while this is

(15:26):
happening, London gets pregnantat a certain point. Maybe this is four years into our relationship, three years somewhere around there, and suddenly I'm like, Okay, I know what I need to do. I need to move us to Westlake Village. We're going to buy a house. I'm going to be your real estate
guy. I'll get into thebrokerage. This is going to be my life path, you know, all right, I'm ready. Let's do this. And we had a house set up. We had already been given the green light to go ahead on the house. Contracts were almost in place, and then suddenly devastating news we had lost the baby. And

(16:10):
once we found out we lost thebaby, it was a very startling, life shaking moment, because we had so much momentum imagining this life we're about to go create together, and we lost the baby deep into it. It wasn't only a couple of weeks like we were some time where we really expected this to happen, and

(16:31):
then suddenly I'm driving homeon my hour long commute through the canyons of California, and I'm feeling broken, but I also realize I'm miserable. I am completely depressed, and as I'm driving through the canyons, I had the vision of just tugging the wheel and driving off of the canyon. I was in that type of

(16:53):
state of mind. By the time I gothome, I looked hard at myself and I said, How is this possible? I'd set out to manifest all of these things. I did it, but I'm actually utterly miserable, and not only because the momentum was broken through the losing the baby, but it was a wake up call, as if to say,

(17:20):
Justin, are you seriously goingto do this for the rest of your life? Is this your calling? Is this your purpose? And in that moment, I realized, no. I was caught up in the momentum of ideas and things that my mind thought I should be doing, but I wasn't listening. And so shortly thereafter, I quit all the jobs.

(17:45):
I kept one client that I wouldcontinue to work with, and I told this client, I said, Look, he was a wealthy man. And I said, Look, if you can pay me just this amount of money a month, it'll be enough for me to survive, and I'll work with you on a daily basis. I'll be here. And he committed. He said, Yeah,
I'll do that. So I would workwith him only, and I spent about a year doing this. And the rest of my time, I would meditate, I'd become still, and I would listen, and I started to differentiate what were my fear driven thoughts that were telling me I need to do this or need to do that, and what was my

(18:29):
heart telling me I needed to do?What direction was my heart actually calling and so when we talk about manifestation, what I'd learned in that period of time is the different places within us that we can manifest from. We could manifest from our survival fears, our sense that we don't have enough, or we
aren't enough, and we need toprove ourselves and gain some sense of significance. Or we could listen to something deeper that is not coming from the fear of survival or trying to run away from what we're scared of. But instead, it's that thing that if we were to take that step and listen to that little

(19:12):
voice telling us to move in thatdirection, it would be us living the life we're really here to live. But at the same time, it's the scariest option. It's the option that actually terrifies us, the option to go this job, that job, gain this none of those are actually scary, because they're there to fight
the fear, but listening to theheart. And so from that moment on, I made a commitment that I'm no longer here to tell the world what I'm going to do. I'm going to listen and see what is it that the world really wants from me truly. And it was from that point forward that we began shifting from fitness into

(19:59):
including. All of the work thatwe had been doing around intimacy, around relationship, and noticing more and more people were asking that of us, that of me and we, we started that together, and that was now that must have been about, you know, 13 years ago at this point, 12 years ago at this

(20:22):
point, somewhere around there,and our life has just unfolded, and it's been a process of surrender ever since that point.

I also love what you're talking about, having the courage to accept the consequences of your intuition and moving into a conscious place. What are the everyday blocks that you see in your work that we're putting up you spoke about some of them within your personal story that we're

(21:02):
putting up that get in the wayof us holding our intuition with courage

through that period of time, I created something called the purpose compass, and I use it to teach clients, often this skill and a simple practice. So everyone could kind of imagine this, as you imagine sitting in the center of a compass, and the point behind you is your south,

(21:41):
and then the point in front ofyou is your true north, so to speak. Okay. As you imagine sitting in the center of this compass, you become quiet and you just kind of feel and inquire like, what is my life purpose? What am I here to do? And as thoughts and feelings start to come up, if anything
starts to come up with theflavor of survival fear, I don't have enough. I'm not enough. Anything like that. We take those thoughts and feelings and we push them behind us, right? What are the fears that of lack that we're trying to escape anything that comes up you put it behind you. Okay, then to

(22:21):
your left would be the West.This is the domain of complacence. This is security, comfort, those kind of goals, those ambitions. So as I feel like, what do I desire? What do I need to give or do? Anything that's coming up in the vein of trying to grasp that security or comfort, we actually put them

(22:43):
over there to our left in thatdomain of complacence, right, any feelings or ideas that come up around resentment or apathy, right? These are impotent thoughts that prevent us from actually pursuing our deepest purpose in the world, we put those over to our right, resentful or feeling apathetic

(23:04):
like I don't care. It doesn'tmatter. I don't deserve it. Any feelings or I can't do this because x and x, all of that would go off to one side, and then what that does is, right in front of us, it clears this path for us to consider. What are the fears that I am inspired to step into? Not the fears I'm running

(23:27):
from, but the fears where, if Iactually pursued this fully, I'd be scared to death, but nothing would be more exhilarating. For example, if I could stand on this stage and speak to 10,000 people at an event, if I can have, you know, like, if I could, if, and it's anything. Sometimes for me, at a point in

(23:47):
my life, it was skydiving. Itwasn't connected to a career or anything. It was just like, This is terrifying, but it's something that, if I were to experience this, I would overcome something know myself better and liberate a part of me, it's that type of thing. How do I need to move through the
world where I feel like I'mliving on my edge, but it's in a way where I'm not running from fear, I'm stepping into it. And so as we meditate from this place, we start to clarify and find out, whoa, if I had a book, right, if I were willing to go out in the world and start dating again, or when I'm at the

(24:24):
gym, talk to that person that Ifind attractive, right? Like little things where you're finding your fear that if you were to step into and this becomes the purpose compass. And so what i i designed that for myself, when I was going through that process, I described to you. And I would wake up every
day, and I would notice, what amI stepping into today that terrifies me, and it became my compass, and I started to live in a way, as we started to teach this work, it was the most vulnerable thing for me to give. It was the scariest thing, most vulnerable. Thing for me, just I when I do group calls, we've

(25:02):
been doing this now for a longtime. When I teach and do group calls, I'm still nervous, terrified, feel sick to my stomach right when I'm done with the call, I'm like, oh, you know, like you can, but it's, it's, it's a sign that you're giving at a level of depth and vulnerability, which means

(25:23):
you're allowing something soprofound to come through you, and that's what it feels like to live at that edge. And I think when we discover that for ourselves, whatever it looks like, it doesn't have to look like anything other than what is true for you, but we start living that way, and that
becomes our new guide or compassthat continues to pull some direction of our deepest purpose.

Oh, I love something that we were speaking about last time we spoke, which was, if we accept that we're all failing all the time, then it actually becomes this very liberating truth, An Inconvenient Truth, but something we can step into, we can surrender, we can explore.
So until we can really get tothis place, this beautiful path that you take people on, I want to start with what the traits are of an unconscious lover. I found some of them very confronting,

Unknown (26:21):
as I was reading your books, because, you know, I'm thinking, you know, I'm in my early 50s. I've been around the block. I've had some great sex, you know,
I'm a giver, I'm I'm a listener,I'm into the rhythm, I'm intuitive,
you know, oh yeah. And then Iread some of these, and I went, Oh, okay, by their standard, I'm an unconscious lover. So take us through these traits, and then I want to walk the path with you to how we can start being a Fire Keeper.

Yeah. Well, I'll start. I know London's got a lot to add on this as well, but to summarize it, for everyone listening within the book, Playing with fire, you'll find that these traits we've identified is someone who's unaware, insensitive, reactive,
unskillful when it comes topolarity, passionless, constantly distracted and selfish. And so we examine each one of these qualities, and we find, well, what is the teaching that we need to know so that we begin cultivating each and every one of these skills that we become more aware, aware of

(27:45):
ourself, aware of our partner.We become more sensitive, sensitive to our own experience, sensitive to the experience of another. We become non reactive, where we stop just bursting and shouting and constantly defending ourselves, but actually can kind of allow the moment to breathe and be as it
is moment to moment, whichprevents a lot of fights. So as we go on this journey of cultivating each one of these skills, we call that the spiritual path of intimate relationship. And anyone who commits to walking that path and begins to cultivate these skills, we call them a Fire

(28:20):
Keeper, someone who understandsthat the fire you share with your intimate partner is something that is sacred, and if you treat it as sacred, those flames will continue to warm your relationship for as long as you're together. But you need each one of these skills to keep that flame. You need a hearth,

(28:41):
for example, as we talk about inthe book, a hearth for the flames. Because if you don't have awareness, sensitivity and equanimity and intimate relationship, that fire between you will rage out of control. It'll burn outside, and it'll just consume the house, metaphorically, but consume your
relationship, because thepassion and desires are too much. Other couples, they have no fire at all. They can function really well. They get along really well, but there's simply no passion. And those couples can suffer just as much because they're like, I love this person so much. Our life

(29:18):
works so well, but I'm not met.I'm not fulfilled intimately, sexually. There's something missing or has faded away. I don't know where it is. And what's missing is the fire. So in playing with fire, we teach you how to gain that fire of attraction back and hold it as something sacred. Now one other

(29:39):
piece I want to mention in thisis as you read the book as you had those chapters were written very intentionally to be like a difficult, cathartic experience that you would go through as you

Unknown (29:50):
read. Oh, you succeeded. I felt it like, are you? Are you? This? You may think this doesn't apply to you, but didn't you? And I went. Oh shit, I'm that. Okay, then I would get to the next Oh no, no. And then by the time I made my way through, I'm like, Okay, well, I'm that. Let me just let
that. Let me tell I'm gonna. Letthem tell me how I'm doing that

and and what I want to share is we have students and clients as they're reading that some of them have told us that they literally take the book and throw it against the wall, screw you London and

Unknown (30:27):
Justin, I would just get my Tibetan bowl out.

And something that I want everyone to know that might not be obvious in the book, because we had editors come in, they said, you need to write it like this to make a good writing we're like, fine, fine, fine. But that inquiry came from London, and I looking at these principles and
teachings and saying to ourself,I'm unaware, I'm insensitive, I'm reactive, I'm untrustworthy, I'm unloving, I'm passionless, I'm so distracted and I'm selfish. Now that's not a way to condemn ourselves or shame ourselves. That's not how I'm describing this. Instead, it's an inquiry into considering as a

(31:17):
human being, I am incrediblylimited, and my interest is to become a more aware, sensitive, non reactive, conscious and loving human being. And if I'm on that path of cultivating any one of those skills, I'm confessing to myself that I'm unaware, still I'm insensitive, still I'm reactive still, and

(31:42):
that's what we define asmastery. We don't claim to be masters, and we don't believe that mastery is a destination. Mastery is a commitment to a path that has no end. It's the constant pursuit of cultivating these skills within ourselves and side by side along our partner as their champion,

(32:03):
helping them develop each one ofthese skills as we do it, as they help us. But it's that process and inquiry of always considering, what can I do next? To be more aware, what can I do now? To be more sensitive, to be more non reactive, to be present, to bring passion to my partner, my relationship, and

(32:25):
that becomes our inquiry and ourcompass for intimate relationship. And that's the intention of the book.

Oh, and I love how you invite us to come to relationship with self and others in the present moment with a beginner's mindset, so that we cannot be a victim of our feelings, but an artist of them. So London, tell me about the foundation of the hearth. Take Take us through this path

(33:02):
that you beautifully set outthese principles and these skills that we can cultivate, sure.

So just speaking of my own experience as a woman, mid 50s, right? Like, how could I be a masterful lover? Like, it would be tempting to think like, you know, everything I've been taught through culture like, it's my surface. I gotta make sure that, you know, he can't
see my jowls that are quicklyincreasing by the day, you know, I need to do something about the crow's feet. I've gotta get like, you know, it's like, you want to just get dolled up and don't dolling yourself up is really fun. No one's taking that away. But when you identify your ability to be a lover by things

(33:54):
that are fleeting, it can havesuch a disempowering. I mean, truly, like, you can start to feel like there's a clock that's ticking, there's a set of shoulds that are, you know, being checked off and then, and this is the experience of my clients when they first meet me. Is like, I'm failing. I'm not

(34:15):
enough. Like, how could I evercompete? Especially now, like, you know, people are just swiping, you know? And it's like, how could I ever get anyone's attention? And the thing I love so much about playing with fire is you realize none of that is what makes you a masterful lover. None of it.

(34:38):
Now, is it fun? Yeah, do I loveto like rock outfits for Justin? Yeah? Do I love to feel beautiful? Yes, but I don't confuse myself that that's what makes me a masterful lover. I'm focused on what you just described as the hearth, which is my ability to. To see him like an Oracle. So he gets home,

(35:07):
and rather than me, like, youknow, like trying to be loved through like perfect exterior and like I just did my workout, you know, is my ass sticking out, you know. Imagine he comes home, he had a rough day, and I take a deep breath like an Oracle, breath into my belly, and I say, I see your heart is

(35:34):
heavy, and you gave everythingtoday, and he just immediately feels met by my love and seen in his world. I mean, this is the kind of stuff that makes you epic in love, you know? And then he, he says, Hi, right? He, he's, like, completely met in love, and then I go into sensitivity, and I say, I feel

(36:07):
so happy to be in your presenceagain. I missed you all day, you know. And I give him the gift of my feelings. So I've given him the gift of my seeing. Now I give him the gift of like full body feeling. And then he says, I'm exhausted. Instead of me being like, well, I made a dinner, and if you can't seem to
find time for me, and it's allabout work, you know, like, that's reactivity, right? You know, like, I wanted to give my love, and you're not letting me, you know, instead of going there, I just say, Oh, babe, I see you. You know, take a minute. I can get everything heated up in a second, and then

(36:44):
he just comes over and grabs mywaist and he's like, I fucking love you. You know, we've just created intimacy through simple seeing, feeling and allowing. And this is a relationship that has wild creativity, wild freedom, wild seeing and feeling like like in a relationship like that, you feel known. You feel

(37:12):
like you're growing on your ownpath, but sexually and spiritually alongside of a lover. And that's just the hearth. That's just three skills you learn to see, feel and allow. I mean, that's ageless, that's timeless, and that's like a kind of glue that makes you a well woven rug, that is an

(37:33):
unbreakable bond no matter whatcomes your way. You those three skills are like pretty much all you need. But then you add polarity on top of that, like knowing how to, like, move your body in a way that creates his straight spine, and now you can breathe in a way that has him breathe down your belly. You

(37:54):
know, these are the skills ofpolarity, where you learn how to dance together as opposites. And we go into all of that. And then the skill of presence alone, you know, Justin mentioned of bad lovers distracted. Well, how many of you have been on a date and somebody's like, yeah, and then they look at like, you
know, who else is here? And oh,yeah, you know. And you're just like, you know, you learn how to be present like nothing else on your mind, like lovership as a meditation, like I could I am so sensitive to who's in front of me, I'm seeing you like I've never seen you before. This is a practice. Just tonight. We've

(38:35):
we've made love millions oftimes. We've been together for years. We raise a kid together. We have a business together. We are attached at the hip, and we work from home, and we spend all of our time together, but when we sit in front of each other, we have a practice to look with new eyes and see the person like
you've never seen them before,and you wouldn't believe how it's what occurs like, it's like, I'm like, meeting this man over and over again, and he's evolving, and I'm seeing him evolve. And, you know, it gets very psychedelic in that, like I could see past lifetimes in his face. You know, you just learn

(39:13):
how to become present in a waywhere the moment is pregnant with aliveness, no matter how many times you've sat together before that can become your reality if you just learn the skill of presence. It's not meet the perfect person. It's not find the twin flame. No, it's become present. We put strangers

(39:35):
together in our workshops. Whenthey become present, all of that's available, even though it's someone that way they would never agree to go on a date with in other circumstances. And then we haven't even touched the final piece, which is devotion, where you learn how to get out of this tit for tat. Well, if
you blah, blah, blah, blah, thenmaybe I could. No, no, no, no, you know, like I want. I want, I want. And you learn how to be so full in yourself that you're overflowing and giving rather than getting where you're going first. Like, maybe he has a bad day. He's not present, but I'm not going alright. Well, if

(40:16):
you're not present, I'm notpresent. I'm like, You know what? My cup is full. Let me offer you my presence. And by this, you're just leapfrogging with each other, like you're always pulling each other up. Somebody's always the strong one. And it's so beautiful, because you get into this thing
where it's it's like arelationship that's noble. You know what I mean? It has honor. It has dignity and elegance, because you're rising into loving the way that you want to love before you die, and that makes you a great lover. And the irony is, you know, this isn't like neutered in the name of

(40:59):
mindfulness. This isn't likewe're being great and good night, honey, good night. No, it's like, deep fuck, wild sex, you know, because when you feel met at that level, your whole body dissolves, and you're like galaxies bumping into each other. I mean, it really does lead to hot, you know, but not
hot from neediness and drama andmakeup sex, where you're just kind of indulging in desire in its ugliest ways. It's hot from the point of view of union of two bodies dissolving into one, the thing that is the holy grail of sacred sexuality, like these seven traits deliver you into that kind of union, because

(41:46):
you're literally experiencingego death with each and every one. You're seeing beyond yourself, you're feeling beyond yourself, you're allowing beyond your survival. You're present beyond your distractions, you're devoted beyond your selfishness, and you know, these are the things that cause the sort of
gentle ego death with yourlover, that suddenly, before you know it, you can't tell the difference between your body and his in a wild, full body orgasm. And that's the promise of sacred sexuality. But what's so cool about playing with fire is it's actually a path for that.

I love being love. How you invite us to be love no matter what? Because so often you get into that scorecard, the score keeping. Well, I'm always the one that does that. And so then you get into this withholding, or I'm going to withhold my love, my presence, because they're not XYZ. It's so

(42:46):
beautiful. I want to ask youabout the three ways of relating and your understanding of polarity, because I really love moving away from masculine and feminine and allowing ourselves to escape these patriarchal understandings. You were talking about this before, Justin about I've got to be masculine, you

(43:08):
know, and how it's males, youknow. And I've got to sit in my femaleness or my maleness. And you've really taken the teachings and crafted this own path and your understanding of it. I want to dive into this polarity, because it's such a key part of being able to find the fire. Because if we're

(43:29):
omega, omega or alpha, alpha, Idon't know about the fire, right, we're going to get burned, or there's going to be no not as you talk about, so can you, can you take us through that?

Yes,
the teachings of masculine andfeminine were merely symbolic to try and tell a story, for example, like through Shiva and Shakti. And embedded in those stories, there's a deep esoteric wisdom, meaning there's a hidden knowledge that most individuals hearing these stories might not be aware of. In fact, most of

(44:18):
them not necessarily aware of.But when you think about going back so many years to when these practices and stories really started to take root in culture, lot of people weren't writing and reading, and so you would tell stories around campfires and such to preserve these sacred teachings within your

(44:40):
culture, so the stories wouldcontinue. So the genderization is there as more I see it as a metaphorical storytelling component. But what we're interested in is the deeper truth behind what it's trying to reveal to you, to us as sacred wisdom. You. Right? And so what we come to understand is that

(45:06):
this masculine component issymbolic of consciousness itself, and consciousness itself is what you are. You're not separate from consciousness. You are 100% consciousness, whether you are man, woman or anything else. For that matter, you are consciousness. It is your nature. Now the other component

(45:33):
of that the feminine principleis creative energy, or pure white light form. What that means is there's consciousness, and then there's literally everything else. If you can observe it, feel it, think it, dream it, touch it, taste it. It's all that feminine principle, anything. The only

(46:03):
thing that is not the feminineprinciple is consciousness itself. Now, in these teachings, we look at that as the fundamental experience that we're all having right now. So the deeper esoteric wisdom is these aren't some ideals you have to chase or cultivate that are outside of you. No, it's
describing your directexperience of this moment right now. There is your consciousness, the I Am Ness, and then there is everything you're aware of, your hands, your thoughts, your emotions, sensations, your perceptions, all those things you can observe is that feminine principle. You

(46:46):
are that as well. You are thebody, you are the mind, you are the emotions, you are the makeup of your perceptions. It makes your identity. And so when you come to understand polarity, the polarity teachings are actually applying to the relationship between consciousness and creative energy, formlessness

(47:11):
and form. It's talking aboutthat dynamic. And what's so amazing, the more we get away from the ideas of gender and masculine, feminine actually start ending them understanding those fundamental aspects of our own identity and nature, we can access parts of ourselves that create an effect and create
polarity and healing in ourrelationship. So I'll give you one example, London and I have the I see, I feel practice in our body of work, the IC and I feel practice was born from this understanding. So when I'm the seer, I sit down in front of London, and I take my attention off of myself, and I place it

(47:54):
entirely on her. So I'm notconcerned with my thoughts, with my emotions, with myself. I'm offering my conscious awareness in service of her, and I'm seeing into her in that moment, I'm identifying with the aspect of me that is consciousness. So I may sit and say, I see how you tirelessly give to our family

(48:22):
and the way you love usendlessly. I see the way you soften in my presence. I see how much you trust me. So in that moment, I'm giving the gift of consciousness without any reference of selfness, I'm embodying consciousness. And so rather than calling that masculine, because nothing do

(48:49):
with being a man, London and Iadopted the terms alpha and omega. So as I identify with my own consciousness, I'm identifying with the Alpha principle. Now London can do the same thing. She can identify as her consciousness and provide the Alpha principle as the seer, and serve me all the same,

I see the clarity of your still mind, the slowness
of your feeling heart, I see howgenuinely rooted you are in this moment,

and so by her seeing into me, I get the experience of being seen and at the end of the day, that's what we all want, whether we're searching for significance or appreciation or unconditional love in one. Form of another. What we're really aching for is someone to see us, to understand

(50:06):
us, to appreciate us, to say,good job. I see you. You're important. We all want that at the most fundamental of our experience. So here, in this very initial practice, we're giving that gift to each other, and the only way we can give that gift is because each of us is consciousness, and it's from
our consciousness that we givethat gift. Now, if I want to move into the other polarity and identify with life, with form, with body, with mind, very simply, the way I'll do that is, instead of placing my attention on London, I draw my attention into myself, on my own emotions, on my own body, on my own

(50:49):
feelings, and then I just revealthe truth of my own experience to her as a gift, to let her see me. I offer my emotions as a gift, and I would say, as the feeler now, I feel vulnerable because I'm giving so fully of myself and I care, And I want what I'm saying now to serve people.

(51:26):
I feel delighted to be sittinghere with you. I'm so grateful that we've been walking this path together for all these years. So now I'm giving her the gift of identifying with my own experience and sharing it with her. Now I'm in Omega nothing to do with man or woman. I am just as much Omega body mind as I am

(51:54):
consciousness. The two are notseparate. They're not two, which is the deeper teaching we may touch on in this call, but they're not two. They're one. They're one. So if we wanted to create polarity in this moment, I could be the feeler and London could be the seer. So I identify as omega, as form, as light, as

(52:18):
body, mind, and she identifiesas consciousness and offers me the gift of her seeing as I offer the gift of my feeling. So for example,
I feel loved and trusted by theway you Look at me, because I could see relaxation.

(52:57):
I feel. Are nervous, because Iam loving this moment with you.

I see purity. Of your honest revelation, I see really good man

(53:40):
doing his best to give the giftof woman wisdom,

I feel seen, and so in that moment, we create an infinity loop between consciousness and light that flows between our two experiences. In that moment, I'm omega, she's Alpha. I'm a feeler, she's a seer. And in our own practice, we will do this together for 10 minutes, and
after 10 minutes, we'll switchpartners. I'll be the seer, she'll be the feeler. That practice alone has changed the lives of countless people we've worked with over the years. Out of all the practices we teach, we find that that is the one that couples need most. And what's so beautiful is you learn

(54:33):
how to develop love and trust,restore communication, but you do it as a form of meditation, not a form of dialog or conversation or therapy with minimal words. We find that a lot of words aren't needed. What's need is that both of us need to be seen and through this practice, not only are you able

(54:55):
to do that and heal somechallenging moments in your relationship, but you Pres. Of polarity. While you

do it, tell me about maintaining eye contact. It's very, very hard for a lot of people to maintain eye contact, to sit and allow themselves to be seen. We know that's our core need is to be known and loved, seen, appreciated, as you were saying, but at the same time, we're so

(55:31):
terrified of being seen, becauseof that fear of I'm not enough that you were speaking about. So when you're working with people, one on one or, you know, two to two, as you do or in a group setting. How do you help people sit in that place where they can allow themselves to be seen?

You know, it's an interesting thing that we chase love, and then when it's here, we run from it. I mean, it's just, it's, we chase orgasm, and then, you know, when you're standing at the precipice of a full body, release into a, you know, wild, mind blowing orgasm. You know, you'll,

(56:25):
you'll, you'll opt out, youknow, you'll tense up. And we see this all the time, and there's an element of eye contact. That's kind of the starting point for breaking that pattern, because what you learn how to do is catch the moment you want to look away and just keep looking. And sometimes

(56:54):
people overdo it, and they theylike. You know, you can make fun of eye gazing, you know where it's like, but that's not it either, because what we're really talking about with eye contact is, I'm here. It's a way of staying present. And what you'll notice is, when you want to duck out of the intensity,
you look away. You know, it'sit's a form of avoidance, really. And so what's so beautiful about the practice of eye contact is you could add, like, the silent mantra, I'm here. I'm willing to see this, I'm willing to be with this. I'm willing to feel this, I'm willing to stay here. I'm

(57:33):
freaking out. All of my defensebells are going off, all of my survival fears. I'm like, freaking out, but I'm here, but I'm here, but I'm here, but I'm here, but I'm here, but I'm here. And you'll notice when we teach workshops, like in the first practice, people are like, giggling, and they're popping
out, and they're looking aroundand, you know, and they think that if the impulse to look over there at that couple comes up that that's like a message, and you're supposed to look over or if the impulse to look away, you're supposed to lighten the moment. But what you find out is you kill your partner when you

(58:13):
run from intensity, your partnerfeels how little capacity you have for their fullness, just none. You look away one time and that person's like, Yeah, I'm not really bringing myself, but you learn to very softly, stay rooted in I'm here, and you'll find that you invite your partner to show a little more

(58:35):
and show a little more. I don'tknow if you've ever like babysat a young child, but if you, if you you know, children kind of suss out how present you are, and they and they will, like, not really engage with you if they think you that you're not really there. But if you show that child, I'm here, they start
to show you things. Like, theysort of go, okay, game on. And then, if you, you're still here, they're like, game on. Well, we're all children at heart, and we're all sussing out of our partner. Like, do they really have the capacity for the full me? And I'm here to tell you, eye contact is the strongest

(59:13):
signal there is to say I've gotthe capacity for your full you. And maybe I'm gonna freak out and I'm gonna itch in my pants, like, you know, you're bringing all of these feelings, and I'm just like, crawling out of my skin, but I'm here. I'm here. And you know, the truth is, you don't even care if they're
squirming, if they stay there,if they keep looking. It's such a gift of love. It's a gift of love. And then that's the that's the that's over here. It's like the beginning level, and then the advanced level I spoke to earlier, which is like, imagine sitting down with your husband of 20 years, and one day he just

(59:51):
pauses and thinks, I don't evenknow who you are, and he offers you the kind of eye contact where he's looking at you like it's the first time who's in. Front of me that's like, love making chefs kiss, you know what I'm saying? Like, you don't care what happens after that. You're just like because you can feel

(01:00:12):
that he's not just here. He'shere beyond, beyond habits of relating, presuppositions, you know, projections. He's here like fresh eyes ready for the imprint of the snowfall. Do you know what I mean? Just so simple, so unbiased, the amount of love we can give through eye contact alone is just mind

(01:00:37):
blowing, especially soft gaze,not like I need something you know not are you looking back? No, just soft gaze. I'm here.

Tess Masters (01:00:48):
I have to ask you about this fullness thing and desire and making it our ally, not our enemy, the desire that we have within ourselves and the desire of our partner that you teach so beautifully. Desire, you know, is

Unknown (01:01:07):
the source of all suffering, isn't it, as you say, but then it can be the source of all of our joy, pleasure, ecstasy, etc.

Take me inside how we can understand desire in a way that is beautiful, that wanting for more. You know, that yearning that we see as a as a curse? I want more. I want more.

(01:01:37):
Yeah, this idea was really bornthrough the Tantras, and it was the considerationthat we don't necessarily have to completely rid ourselves of desire. We don't have to all put on robes, become celibates, shave our heads and never have a thought about sex or ever again to be awakened, to be liberated. But

(01:02:07):
there's another way to work withthese things in our lives. And so some of the most common poisons of mind that are worked with are desire, anger and ignorance. And each of them mean a unique thing. And each of them have a whole body of practices that surround the exploration of, how do we work with each one

(01:02:36):
of these poisons and alchemizethem into something that is medicinal, healing, beautiful. Alchemize it into conscious love. And so in this body of work, as we explore the sexual yogas or sacred intimacy, it's focusing on desire specifically, because this body of work, its deeper meaning is this isn't

(01:03:05):
about self development. Thisisn't about just dating tricks and tips. This is about waking up through desire, about transforming relationship to desire such that it stops becoming a source of suffering and it becomes a vehicle for liberation itself. That's the inquiry that we're inside of

(01:03:33):
with this body of work.

Justin Patrick Pierce (01:03:40):
How we go about all of that can be tricky business.

That's where we get into all of our problems when your desire and my desire collide.

And it gets even trickier when commonly you might run into the problem of I desire to not desire anymore. Now you're really stuck in a tricky place. What do you do with that? And so this is why, in this body of work, there's this beautiful paradox, which I think is one of the most

(01:04:18):
interesting and fascinatingthings about this body of work, and it's the paradox of equanimity and desire. If you notice, in the middle circle of our path, there's equanimity at the bottom, there's desire at the top, and alpha and omega to the left and right. And if we can really understand the

(01:04:39):
significance of that middlecircle, we really start to grasp the heart and soul of what sacred sexuality is as a vehicle for spiritual awakening, not as a self development tool or a trick or tip to fix your marriage, but as a vehicle for spiritual awakening. It's right that. There in the symbol in the

(01:05:01):
middle circle, and for everyoneto simply understand what equanimity means is, equanimity is the direct experience that you need nothing to change. It's the experience of allowing yourself, the moment, your partner, the world to be just as it is, and nothing needs to change. Now, some people because

(01:05:31):
that can create a state of peaceor bliss within us. Some people imagine that equanimity means peace or bliss. Or some people imagine equanimity is okay. What my partner is saying to me is really making me mad, but I'll just bite my tongue and sit on my hands and I'll just be in equanimity with it, right?

(01:05:53):
That's not equanimity.Equanimity can't be faked. You either do not need the moment to be different than it is, or you need the moment to be different than it is. So what we're cultivating in equanimity is truly the capacity to be with the intensity of the present moment without reacting to it.
And that takes training. Andthese practices train us in that way. So as we sit here and we do the I see in the I feel practice. One of the things we're practicing here as well is not just seeing and feeling anything we want, because the practice alone isn't going to fix it's going to reveal your

(01:06:32):
dynamic. So you sit there in theI see a fail practice, and you go, I see your clothes right now. I see you're in your childhood wound. I feel abandoned. I feel like you don't love me. You could just as easily sit down and do that in a practice, and that's going to go nowhere fast, right? As we start

(01:06:57):
to gain some skill andequanimity, we can say things like, I see I feel, and we could notice that some things we're seeing or feeling could feel hurtful or scary. But what we cultivate in the practice is I allow you to feel exactly as you're feeling. I allow me to feel exactly as I'm feeling. I

(01:07:20):
allow you to see as exactly asyou're seeing. I don't need it to change. And through that repetition of seeing and feeling without reacting, we start to cultivate equanimity, which is the ability to meet the intensity of the moment as it is as it is.
So in one hand, we're practicingI allow. I allow.

(01:07:46):
Now desire is the polar oppositeof that. Desire is not I allow. Desire is I want. Desire is the impulse for something to be different than it is, and at the fundamental level, whether we want to call it a need or a want, at the fundamental level, what's happening within your experience is the urge for

(01:08:11):
something to be different thanit is for you to be different, for the room to be different, for the person you're next to to be different. That agitation creates a lot of suffering, because that presence of that feeling is your confession that you are dissatisfied, that you are dissatisfied with whatever

(01:08:33):
this moment is, and living in aperpetual state of dissatisfaction is absolute suffering. What else could it be, right? So this is why most of the ancient traditions will say, we're going to pull that out by the root. Let's get rid of that. There's nothing wrong with that approach. It's wise.

(01:08:58):
It just doesn't happen to workfor everybody, especially if we want to be passionate lovers and intimate relationship. And this is the unique feature about intimate relationship as it becomes a vehicle for awakening. Because when I turn and I look at my partner, if I was just here with no desire, I could be

(01:09:21):
like, Hmm, I love you. Yes,everything's fine. I love you unconditionally. Yes. But there's not the charge to touch, to come together, to penetrate, to wrestle, to play. It's not there. And so if you want a relationship where there's not that level of passion or desire, you can have that if that's what
you enjoy, but if you're lookingfor a life that's filled with passion, that desire we recognize is actually a critical component in intimate love, because intimacy itself is I want to kiss you. I want you to come closer. I. You. I want to touch you. I want to protect you. And so in these ways, the

(01:10:05):
communication of my want isactually serving love. It's generating the experience of more love, of more trust, of more passion in this moment, not creating pain, sin, destruction, it's so we alchemize it to become a tool in service of our partner. We use our I want to actually serve this experience.

(01:10:32):
So how do we do all of thatwithout burning down the relationship, without causing massive losses of trust and heartache and all of that. We do it through awareness, through sensitivity, through equanimity. We do it through presence, through selfless devotion, through love, through trust. And

(01:10:54):
so that's why all the pieceswe've taught are so critical in this process, because to wield fire in that way. What we ultimately end up with is it's not that sometimes we're allowing and sometimes we're wanting. The secret is to be in complete equanimity, absolute equanimity, I allow and I want

(01:11:20):
at the same time, fullintensity, and that's what we start to wake up to as our direct experience. Because the flow of wanting and desire is our nature. It is the urge that impels life to show itself and shine. It is the fundamental desire of the grass to grow and the sun to shine. When we start

(01:11:43):
to understand desire at thatfundamental level and let that move through us. It comes through our intimate connection and our sexing, and in that way, we liberate through desire.

Alright, let's come into the real world down from the monk mountain for a second. Okay, let I want you to give me a real life example of when I express my desire to my partner. My partner's just not quite there yet, and receives a bit of it, but I'm not quite ready to, you know, go and dress

(01:12:14):
like a little full kitten orsomething, or not ready to touch you there or whatever, take me through that I would need exercise which is so powerful, so that we can meet in a mutual place of comfort or desire. Is that the right way to say it or presence?

Londin Angel Winters (01:12:41):
So quickly, painting a picture of what in a female like in my female body, equanimity and desire looks like we will be, yeah. So let's say that Justin's on a trip, and he's been gone for a while, and I'm, I'm really, I'm really yearning for him. I'm dying for the call, I'm

(01:13:07):
dying for the text, I'm dyingfor his attention. And I think whether you're single or in a relationship, you can relate to that moment when you are yearning for connection, almost to the point where you're getting cranky about it, you know, where you almost just either want to, like, lash out

(01:13:28):
or shut down or just like, thedesire for that attention from him is so much it almost like brings out your worst behavior. Do you know what I mean by that? Like, you know, like, you just want to be mad at him because he took too long to call, or you want to give up on the relationship because it hurts

(01:13:48):
too bad to want it anymore. Oryou create stories in your head about why you haven't heard from him and what that means. And then you call your girlfriend, and you spin a tail, and then you're in a tail spin, and then by the time he calls, you've accused him of cheating. You know what I mean? That's what
desire out of control lookslike. So equanimity would be like, I don't, you know, not real equanimity, but like, fake equanimity be like, I'm fine with whenever he calls, like, I'm cool. You know, desire out of control would be like, you know, what have you been doing? You know? And he's like,

(01:14:28):
shooting a scene, and it wentbad, and then we had 15 takes. Like, what? So, what does it look like when you're doing the yoga around a moment like this? Well, you don't shut the desire down, you know? You don't go like, I don't want to be dramatic, I'm just going to not care. And you don't run away

(01:14:51):
with the desire where now you'vespinned the tail. Instead, you feel the yearning for him in your body. It, and you allow that yearning so it's not a hot potato. You're going to throw into a story and a call with your girlfriend, and it's not a hot potato, you're going to be like, screw that. I don't want

(01:15:12):
to feel that vulnerable. You'regoing to cook in it. You're going to bake in it. You're going to simmer in it, and you're going to literally let that desire make love to you while you make love to that desire, so much so that at one point you just imagining that moment of connection with him,
and it's as if it's happeningright now, and then you're saying yes, and you're saying yes again, and you're saying yes again, until you're so fulfilled in how much you want him, and you love being that alive, and loving being that alive makes you more alive until you are in a complete and total love making

(01:15:52):
state, and he hasn't even calledyet. And then by the time he calls, you're just like, Oh, hi, yeah, I'm over here having a great time. What are you doing? Do you get it? It's like you're literally allowing desire, the intensity of desire, to give you your best life to You know, like you could write a song with

(01:16:18):
this. This does you could writea poem. You could make performance art, you could dance to four songs, and it'd be the best dancing you've ever done. So this is what Justin's talking about. Is like finding the willingness to want but also allow and in every way being willing to circulate that

(01:16:38):
intensity unrelated to anexterior outcome, unrelated to a change of any kind, nothing in your situation changes, except that you become absolutely awakened by your own desire. Can you feel what I'm saying?

Oh, I love it. No, I love it. Yeah, I love it. No, I understood what you were saying. Justin, I wanted an everyday example of,

well, I wanted to just paint that picture, because now I'm going to give you an everyday example.

It was so great. No, no, it's so great.

Yeah, so imagine two people are doing this together. Okay, it gets more complicated, because your partner might sit down. So, you know, in the book, we talk about we do formal practice, and sometimes I wear some crazy outfit, you know, and it doesn't mean I'm, like, already there.

(01:17:36):
It means, like, I'm, like, aNordic priestess, like putting the ceremony together, and then I sit down, but I'm in some crazy outfit, and Justin will immediately feel that desire, like he's 200 steps ahead of me, and he can feel that desire. And he might say something like, I want your mouth around my cock.

(01:18:01):
And I'll be like, I just gothere, you know? And if I wasn't in allowing I would either need to shut him down or or speed myself up. I'd either be like what I just got here. God, if you ever want me to wear an outfit like this again, you should really just rest back for a second. Okay? I want some

(01:18:25):
foreplay, you know? Or I mightbe like, Oh my God, what's wrong with me? I don't feel it. He's feeling it so much. I'm not feeling it. Am I frigid? Am I getting old? Is this menopause? What's going on? You know? Like, you could see reactivity in either direction, right? But what if I was to a practice

(01:18:49):
allowing so he's got this 10foot wave of desire, and I've got maybe a one footer at this point. But if I'm an allowing, I'm like, Okay, I see your 10 footer. I see but I also see my one footer, and I see that we're different here, and that's cool. And, huh, alright, what could he bring that might turn my one

(01:19:14):
footer into a 10 footer? And sothen I go, okay, okay, I hear you, and then I bring a what I would need. So I really, truly feel in my body like what might take me to the place that he's in. And this comes from practice, because I know myself really well. I have explored my wants in my private time. I'm

(01:19:38):
connected to my body. I knowwhat my body likes, I know what my body needs, I know what my body's interested in. So I tap into that well of solo practice that I've done, and I go like if I was to do it right now, what I would need is for you to undress me with your eyes and breathe so deep into my belly that I

(01:20:03):
couldn't help but cry. Roll overand wrap my lips around your cock, right? Like I just named what I would need to get over there. I'm not shutting his desire down. I'm not judging mine, but I am giving him the bridge into me. I'm giving him sort of what I call the keys, like, here's what I would need

(01:20:27):
to get there. And this is whatwe're doing all the time. And he's kind of like, okay, and then he starts doing it, and then we go from there. And it ends up being this incredible, because one of the number one things we see around sexuality in couples is the they're just in two polar opposite universes.

(01:20:51):
You know, he wants an orgy andshe wants him to empty the dishwasher. Like their desires don't even live in the same universe. And it's like, how do we end up getting into a fun tussle with that. This is how, this is how, and it really works. And it really works not from forcing yourself to play

(01:21:15):
games that you're not evenenjoying. It works through true self revelation, just bringing the union genuinely online, such that by the time you arrive there, both of your bodies are all in. And that's what's special, is when both bodies are all in, there's not one partner counting the minutes until he

(01:21:39):
comes, or another partner like,you know, closing his eyes and fantasizing about his latest porn clip. You know, just happy to get access to a human body. You know, we see this, and nobody wants that, really. You know, nobody, neither partner wants that. They want union. And union involves some skills, and

(01:22:03):
they're all available in thepath, make sense?

Yes, Justin, I have to ask you from a male perspective, because what you're describing is the dynamic that so many women moan about, which is that what you were saying about the man being 100 steps ahead, and he's got a 10 foot wave of desire and wants to go straight into the fucking. And

(01:22:28):
you're just you need some youneed some enticement. You need some ravishing before that. You need some love and tenderness and whatever you know. So from a male's perspective, how can you move with your waves of desire and at the same time catch hers?

That's what creates the hottest sexual moments. Is the full embodiment of equanimity and desire at the same time. So what I mean by that is, if I'm turned towards her, and she's wearing something sexy, and I'm turned on. Take a breath with my desire. I feel my desire, and I might say I want
your mouth around my cock. SoI'm feeling my desire fully. I express my desire in a way that's loving to her. I'm not being inconsiderate or controlling. I'm loving her as I do this, but I'm in full equanimity with my desire. That's there. Now she hears that, and she responds with

(01:23:27):
something to the effect of notyet, because she's in equanimity with my desire and her own desire. You see it, as she said before, if she was an equanimity, she'd shut me down or speed herself up. But because she's practicing equanimity with my desire and hers at the same time, both our desires coexist
harmoniously, even thoughthey're radically different, right? So I'm in this moment now. She says, Not yet. Hmm, is that more interesting than her doing what I want. It's more interesting because getting your desire fulfilled is not the peak of ecstasy. Desire is the tension point that exists

(01:24:12):
between you wanting something inthe distance, between it and you want it to get close, close, close, close, close, but actually to touch it fully, would be to to for the desire to disappear. It's to sustain that desire and hang out in there, and that creates the most ecstatic sexual moments. So I'm
with her, and I say, I wantthis. She says, Not yet. Now I'm even more interested. Now I'm like wanting it more badly, so I'm in equanimity with that desire. Now, if I wasn't in equanimity with my own desire, two things could happen in that moment. She says, Not yet. And I go, Oh, my desire is bad. It was

(01:24:56):
too much. I came on too strong.I knew I shouldn't have said that. Let me shrink down and hide and feel ashamed for what I was feeling, not equanimity with desire, right? So I'm allowing that to be here. But the other direction it could go is, well, forget you're not yet. I need this now and just start touching
her and jump on her and totallyignore what's happening inside of her, right? So what it looks like is she says, Not yet, I keep feeling my desire, but I'm in perfect equanimity with my desire. I don't need her to actually do what I said I desired. My Love and My presence and my connection with her

(01:25:37):
aren't dependent upon her doingthe thing that I said. I'm revealing my desire as a way to invite her into my world experience with complete equanimity for what is there and what is wanting, and at the same time, I am completely unattached to anything that I say coming forward, because my primary
interest is to love this woman.That's what we're here to do, to ecstatically experience love, not just in kind of like a gushy way, but I mean a full body rapture, ecstasy of love, like when some people do it through peak psychedelic experiences, other people do it through skydiving. You know, there's a

(01:26:16):
million ways to do it, but it'sthat peak life experience that we're creating here through our sexuality, and that's how it's done. It's through the simultaneous embodiment of both desire and equanimity at once. Now when she, when I when she can feel my full desire flowing and also feel that I have the
discipline to rest back and stayhere as I feel my desire, does that create more turn on or less? That's what I'm talking about. So So while these principles are so esoteric, we can play with them and actually measure and experience directly the profound effect they have on our lives, and once you learn

(01:27:02):
how to integrate that into yourlife, it's like seeing the matrix. You can't go back, and now you have this powerful tool that will serve you every day of your relationship for the rest of your life.

Oh, I love how you talk about, yeah, psychedelics and drugs. Try sacred love, sacred sexuality people. So if we're holding our fullness, we've got polarity, we've got equanimity, and we've got our desire, let's go into the advanced part of the path that you were alluding to before, so

(01:27:38):
that we do not burn the housedown and everybody in it with our desire and our awareness and all the things this devotion piece is so beautiful. Let's move into the the top part of the path. Yeah,

well, we're a self development driven culture, and there's nothing wrong with self development. Self development is wonderful, but I think it's important for us to recognize in this body of work and why this is a spiritual path, as opposed to a path of self development, is because of
this piece of devotion, becauseit's through devotion that we are practicing, cultivating these gifts in selfless service of love. And rather than it being let's develop ourselves and create the perfect self. It's the exploration. Let's transcend the self. Let's learn how to love beyond our self, not

(01:28:40):
beyond the ego and actually lovea human being. And one of the things I love when I'm teaching these workshops with couples is a lot of people will come with spiritual knowledge. You know, we attract an audience who understands spirituality, and we've all heard the idea, transcend your ego. Transcend
the ego. No self, transcend yourego. Very rarely do we ever see anyone doing it in real time, or giving us a way to say, this is how you transcend your ego. And one of the things that I love is there'll be a couple in that workshop, and they have a hard moment and they're fighting, you know, there's just something

(01:29:20):
happens. There's a rupture, orthey came into the workshop with this rupture, and now it's like coming up in a moment, and I say, look, sit down with your partner, take a breath. See into their experience. See looking through their eyes, see what they just experienced, and how you might have affected them and

(01:29:41):
caused that. And those peoplewill sit there, they'll take a breath, and they'll say something like, I see your hearts broken because I lost your trust. I see you feel abandoned because I spoke on kind. To you earlier. Now, in that moment, they're overcoming this knot of self that is

(01:30:08):
gripping, wanting to defenditself, wanting to justify it, does not want to say any of those things it wants to say, but you and no and so in that moment, they actually get the experience, and we all witness it. The room is so quiet, so still, as you could hear a pin drop in these moments, because

(01:30:30):
everyone can see what'shappening is so profound, but in that moment, they're actually transcending their selfishness in service of love, and that moment really represents why we cultivate these skills in service of other and service of world. So as we embark on this path, I think it's important for

(01:30:51):
us to remember that selftranscendence is kind of the crux and the key to it all, because you can develop all these polarity skills and all these distinctions and teachings and still be very selfish about it, because they're powerful tools. You can go out in the world and you can use these
techniques, and you canmanipulate people and get what you want. And there are people who do it, but if you are missing this devotion piece where it's not about you, but it's actually about cultivating, that is something that is truly of service of others. That's where this becomes a spiritual

(01:31:24):
path.

And devotion. Devotion is the thing that creates the long term commitment, because Sometimes life hits you with a two by four. You know you might have the relationship on track be totally in love and in passion, and then something horrible happens that causes grief, and

(01:31:49):
one partner has a rough span fora second. If everybody's there to get their own needs met, you know, one partner will be on the sidelines like so, when do I get this yumminess again, you know? Or, you know, I'm not sure this is what I signed up for, but when the devotion piece is strong, there's just an element

(01:32:16):
of standing for your partnerthat has a generosity and a patience to it. You know, Justin mentioned we had some tough times. We had one miscarriage that was so bad, my milk came in. I was destroyed. I mean, just like flattened for a very long time. And in our first book, Justin wrote a chapter

(01:32:42):
called shards of glass, becausebreathing me during that time felt like he was inhaling shards of glass. I mean, how does a couple make it through something like that? It's strictly an only devotion that allows you to stay together through such trying times, because you learn how to transcend your own neediness,

(01:33:04):
and you learn how to really showup for somebody beyond even hidden agendas of like, okay, I'll show up for a couple weeks here, but then I'm going to need something back, you know? And the devotion really teaches you how to be together forever. And I'm so grateful that we have this devotion piece, because I

(01:33:27):
feel like there's room for me togo through things, because there's also nothing worse than spiritually bypassing left, right and center, because you don't think your relationship is strong enough for you to have a bad moment. And you know, I've been able to, like, truly grieve some tough things, because
Justin, Justin made space for meto really grieve. And I honestly, if I hadn't grieved that one miscarriage at the level that I did, I really don't think I would have my six and a half year old today, because I was able to get on the other side and, like, really find my exuberance for life again. And

(01:34:07):
to we were able to get on theother side and have this, like, thriving sexual life again. And that thriving, to, you know, exuberance and yes and full body release led to a pregnancy at 47 you know. And so the devotion piece can't be stressed enough, because it creates the ground for everybody to truly meet this

(01:34:35):
life on this life's terms andnot avoid key things that are part of your incarnated path, key things that you're here to meet and would love to have support around you know you can have a partner supporting you as you genuinely meet the two by four.

Something was kind. Up for me as I was reading your books, and as I'm talking to you now, was the difference between the dance of intimacy and the yoga of intimacy that you take people in that all these books I'd read about the dance of intimacy the conscious and unconscious, you know, fear
of intimacy and abandonment thatlives within each of us, conscious or unconscious, and it keeps the focus on you, as you were just saying Justin and reading those books kept the focus on me. And when I read your books and was speaking to you, that devotion piece really came into my heart and went it

(01:35:42):
just took it into a whole otherlevel of making it about love and the devotion. Isn't a codependent I'm going to give this my partner every single thing that they want, and sacrifice what I need, and this all or nothing, or one or the other, kind of of a toxic dance of going nowhere but trauma and
disappointment, but thisdevotion to just showing up. I love what you were saying before. It's just, Oh God, I want to cry about thinking about being in the pregnancy of the moment that allows you to believe that this moment will give birth to something beautiful that's really going to

(01:36:26):
stay with me. So thank you forthat. Oh, God, I could talk to you about this forever. Truly, I always close every episode with the same question, which is, when you have a dream, I'm going to say desire. Within the context of our conversation today, and you don't feel like you have what it takes to make
it happen, or you don't feellike life is going to meet you in a place where it will be answered. What do you say to yourself? I mean, you've been answering this for our whole conversation but, but I'd love to just close with with what's coming up for each of you with that, what do you say to

(01:37:05):
yourself and you don't feel likethe moment is going to have? What you need?

What I say to myself is, if this moment feels insufficient in any way that's on me. And if I think that there's a future moment where life gets better than this moment, that's also my own mistake. And so my ever present practice is when I'm projecting into some futurely fulfilled

(01:37:43):
moment. How can I love thedesire for what I want to make, make manifest, right? How do I not let go of that desire, but experience that desire all the way right now? I mean, this is, this is like becoming your own lover. Like, how does that desire become deep fuck for me right now, not 30 seconds from

(01:38:10):
now, but now, because a I'mrecognizing that there is no future moment, and then the paradox that my fully receiving that desire and like being in full love making with it, is what creates that future moment to be my reality. So this is the intersection of surrender and manifestation that I'm currently

(01:38:36):
in. And remember how I saidoriginally I gave up my job, you know, I thought it was all now I'm in that marriage between the two. And so now you're in true magical creation, which is breathing it through your full love body here and now creates the molecules that make it something that is in form later.

(01:39:03):
So I would say, be it, breatheit. Love it. Be Loved by it. Like so much so that it's as if it's already occurring, and it will not be long before it's occurring. Mm,

uh, when I look out and I experience it's just obvious that life is here to be seen, to be tasted, to be touched. And every moment, it's inviting us, whether we're lying in our bed or walking down the street, life is just a constant invitation. It's constantly inviting you. It's constantly

(01:39:45):
here, saying, Look at me, seeme, touch me, smell me, obviously.
And when I had really come tosee that and know that I.
My purpose here became selfevident. Purpose wasn't something I had to pursue or do. Purpose was self evident. It's in being itself that there's purpose. In being itself, there's love and being itself. There's real freedom and the fullness and richness of life. And I don't just say those

(01:40:23):
words, I mean, it is myexperience.
It wasn't always my experience,but in that way, I always feel sustained.
I always feel safe. That doesn'tmean I don't have doubtful thoughts or fearful thoughts, but those just color the moment temporarily. But behind it all, there is a there is a being that has never let me down, that has always been there, no matter what sensation or experience that may have been present.

(01:41:00):
There is a being that has neverbeen touched or tainted or scarred by any experience, and knowing that resting in that is the greatest security, the deepest safety, the most profound gift, and that's that's not just Me, that's within all of us, we share that experience. It just takes some time to clear

(01:41:28):
the cobwebs and settle the mindand remember that's who we are. It's always with us.

Thank you for how you show up in the world and for the beautiful work that you're doing. It's just wonderful.

Thank you. Tess, thank I'm.

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