The Enneagram: What Drives Your Choices? | 051 - It Has to Be Me

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tess Masters (00:00):
Oh, Kelly, I am so excited to talk about this journey that you've been on to become this badass mental health ninja, as you call yourself. So take me into that first it has to be me moment when you were a collegiate athlete and you had all that pressure and your perspective started to shift.

Kelly Travis (00:17):
Yeah, so I was a collegiate runner, and at the end of my freshman year, my coach pulled me into his office, and he sat me down and he said, Travis, because he called me by my last name. He said, you can be, you know, this next level athlete, but what you have to do is you have to lose five pounds. And he used to weigh us. He used to come up behind us and grab the back of our arm. He used to just say really nasty things. The culture in that sport, it's improving, but at the time, it was not great, and I was not one of the lucky ones who had a good coach. So he basically promised me all these things. Made me sign a contract. And I'm young. I am incredibly driven. I want to be the best. So of course, I'm like, I will do whatever it takes. And I went home for the summer, and I lost the weight, but I had come from a culture of women who hated their bodies. I was already familiar with the messaging, and so it wasn't something I questioned at all at the time. And then what happened from there is I couldn't stop so it was something that became, I can control this. This is weight loss equals success equals, you know, all of these things, and that's where it led. And I ended up dropping out of college in the middle of my sophomore year. My last race was nationals, and I had to get help, and very quickly ended up in the hospital because everything was failing, so it got bad.

Ooh, okay, so when you develop this disordered eating pattern, how did that cause you to reflect on the connection with all of your other choices? So you touched upon, you know, being very familiar with the this programming from childhood and from your family, and having female role models that were dieting or restricting what they were doing as a sophomore, as a still very young woman,

(02:37):
what happened from there?

Unknown (02:40):
Yeah, it was interesting. You asked about that moment, and I did have a moment in the hospital when I'm looking around, because at the time, where they put women with eating disorders, anorexia was on the psych ward in the hospital. So you are with people who are my roommate was schizophrenic, or, you know, suicidal, or all these other individuals and and also being told like, this is a disease that's really people don't really recover from, you know, you're just like, getting all these messages. And I thought, if I can pull out of this, and I can get myself to a healthy place, I want to help women. At some point I want to help women. I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't even know what that meant. To your point, I was a sophomore in college, and I had come from a family that didn't talk about feelings. We shoved everything under the rug. I, you know, was pushed to achieve. You know, I was an environment where that was validated and and so it took me a really long time to do the inner work, to actually be able to do that reflection, because the only thing that they tell you to do when you're in the hospital is to gain weight. They're not helping you dive into like, where did this come from? And how did it start? And tell me about, you know, and so it took a while to get to that point, but I knew there were, there was messaging in, you know, my youth that did make me vulnerable to this. And my psychiatrist told me that, right? And so I had an awareness about that.

Yeah, so take me into the next it has to be me moment, the next part of this trajectory of you really diving into that.

Unfortunately, I spent about 12 years not doing anything because it was scary, and I just jumped from my athletic career to a professional career like I got through college and I found work that was very much milestone, achievement driven and I relapsed. Grace. I was so shut down. I am somebody that I have evolved. I was somebody who felt like you had to appear strong and in control and not show your weaknesses. That is where I came from. And so even acknowledging that I was struggling, that I still was criticizing my body, that I still wanted to lose weight like I was not recovered, but I couldn't talk about that. I couldn't I was not willing to do the work. And it wasn't until fast forward, 1215, years later, I was pregnant with my first son, and I was just going through the motions. I was operating on autopilot, and I found myself, I call it my bathroom floor moment, I was literally on the bathroom floor looking at the pregnancy test, going, what am I going to do? Like I don't. I admitted to myself like I got so much work to do, and I'm going to bring this child into this world and, holy, crap, I hope it's not a girl, was what I thought like, because I don't want to screw her up. Yeah. And so that is when the real work began.

And so what did that work look like

it was messy, just, you know, and none of this work is easy. You know that, because you have to really be willing to face your blind spots and to acknowledge the things that are holding you back and to question you know, what you've been doing up until this point, and and kind of peel back the onion on like, how did I get to this place? Why do I think this way? Right? And I did. I did the work, and it was a journey, but it started with my health first, because I looked healthy, but I was still not right. Oh

gosh, it's such a familiar story, right? And you

work with people around food, and we have so many stories about food and what that means. And so coming from not only women who didn't eat and shame their bodies, and then my own experience, it was just a part of how I thought. And I had to do that work first, because I was pregnant, and then it moved into, okay, now I gotta do the work about what's going on in my head. And, you know, truthfully, I think that had to happen first, because we know if we're not Properly fueling, if we're not, we can't fully do that work.

Yeah, we we talk about this a lot in in our community, about how you've got to have clear pathways, and you can't have clear pathways without a vessel, a body that is clean by nourishing it effectively. So how did you then make that leap from being in a healing space and then deciding that you wanted to shepherd others?

So in the middle of all of that, I think I mentioned too, like I was high up on the ladder in corporate America, I was training for to qualify for the Olympic trials, like I was doing all these things, and then I had the bathroom floor moment, and I started to recognize, okay, what appears on The outside is not actually what's happening on the inside. Gotta do that work, and the in the process of that, I started working on, okay, I want to start my own business. I need to get out of corporate America. I need to circle back to my original goal, using, like, my education and so I I'm a very like, I make a decision, I just do it. Type of person I think you and I shared that conversation, yeah, and I just was like, Okay, I'm leaving corporate America. I'm sorry. My own business doesn't matter if I'm pregnant, then maybe. So I did all this at the same time. But the beautiful thing about it is I had to take additional certification courses and do some more work so that I was credible in the industry I wanted to move into. And in doing that, I had to do the work on myself. It was a gift. I had to work through my issues with food, my self confidence, my inability to like tune into how I felt, like all of these things that I had shoved down I had to deal with because I could not help others. If I wasn't doing the work myself, right, I would be a complete fraud,

totally and we're all afraid of the. F word, yes, yes. Oh, as a coach, you never totally you never want to be a fraud. You want to be walking the talk always. And, you know, there is this misconception that if you're a coach, you've somehow got it all figured out. I mean, we're always all learning and growing and discovering and changing and always wanting to be in a healing space. Gosh, it's Gosh, this. I mean, I, you know you and I talk about this all day long, right? So take me into some of the really key things that you learned about yourself that enable you to hold space for others so beautifully. Now,

I became really comfortable telling my story. I think that was the first part. So the other element to all of this was I was in a really, really bad relationship, and we don't need to get into it, but I had stepped into, like a lot of people do, I was not being treated well. I was accepting far less than I did, like just, you know, there were I had to really work on that. And it was like that last thing I felt like I needed to do to be able to say I can be of service. Because I felt like this was this small part of me, well, big part of me that nobody knew about but I knew, and it was somehow impacting my ability to fully show up and serve. And so once i i I divorced when my kids were two and a half and one, and after that, my business completely evolved. I think it freed me, because I think I was in this space where I didn't feel completely comfortable. I felt like, you know, like something was off.

Yes. I mean, look, you're I feel like you're only as strong as your weakest link, and you know, when you're putting yourself out there, but there's a part of your life that is not quite authentic. It's not quite truthful. So, you know, you and I talked about this. It's almost like we've been living parallel lives. You know, I was very much being truthful in all these parts of my life, but I was also in a relationship. It wasn't an abusive relationship, but it wasn't what it needed to be, and I knew that I was living a lie, yeah, and I had to get out. And the same thing happened for me. It was like the minute I released myself and the other person, you know, from this dance of toxicity, everything started to fall into place. And I could absolutely feel like I was speaking truthfully about my life. So I so that so resonates with me. So take me into this, this next, it has to be me moment where you discovered the Enneagram work and how powerful that could be for helping us see what drives our choices.

Yeah, this goes actually hand in hand with that. So after that decision to leave my marriage and be a single mom and run a business, I knew I needed to do some work, right? I have got to deal with some of the stuff that has got me to this place, right? Why I ended up in this relationship and and in doing that work, I did a lot of self discovery, a lot of work around you know, who did I have to be at a young age to survive in the environment I was in? Because we all have that. It doesn't mean the environment you were in were was bad. It's just your role in that environment. And how did that impact me? Like, why is it that I show up in this way? Why is it that I think this way and behave this way? And it started in therapy, and then I discovered the Enneagram accidentally, because it really coincided with the type of therapy I was getting, and I just fell in love with it, because the Enneagram doesn't just tell you how you behave, it tells you why you behave the way you do. And it's not about changing who you are, but it's about learning how to evolve and transform and grow and take on different perspectives and get out of these patterns of behavior that keep us stuck and choosing things that are not helpful or healthy or what have you, right?

Yeah. So, so everybody's working from the same lexicon here. Can you just talk us through what the Enneagram is?

Yeah, it's an assessment. And like I said, it tells you how you behave, but more importantly, why you behave the way you do. And so. So there are nine pure types of the Enneagram, and each type has a core motivation that doesn't change, like that is foundational to who we are. The other parts of us will change and evolve, but our core motivation does not and that informs how we see the world, how we view the people in it, how we talk to ourselves, what we feel like we need to survive all of these things. And the beauty of the Enneagram is, well, we also have core instincts, right? And so when you pair an instinct with a pure type, you have this very different looking type. So if you have any listeners who are familiar with the Enneagram and they're like, why I'm a type one, but my you know, friend is a type one, and we're totally different. It's because when you pair the instinct with the type, it makes a completely different type. So technically, there are 27 Enneagram types. Anyway, I love it, because it doesn't just tell you your type and your core motivation, but the assessment I use digs into, well, what's your way of thinking, what's your way of feeling, what is your action center? And it just gives us so much information, so that when we sit down and we talk about, like, what's going on? What are you struggling with? You know, why is, why is setting boundaries hard for you? Well, it's going to be hard for different for people based on who they are, right? Um, or, you know, why is conflict difficult for you? Or, you know, those types of things we can dig into. Well, this is your approach. It hasn't been working. What can we do instead? How can you think differently? The idea is we try on different glasses to have different perspectives, because there is not one way of doing, there is not one way of being, acting, thinking, right? And so when we can move along that continuum into that more adaptable, you know, space, then we really start to grow.

Yeah, so you said before the assessment that you use, so are there different kinds of assessments to back into the school? Yeah,

so there's like, free ones online, and they're not accurate, unfortunately, and they don't give you very much information. The assessment I use is very, very detailed, and it provides all of these things I've been telling you, beyond just your type.

And so how long does it take to do the assessment, your particular assessment?

Yeah, it's about 20 minutes. And what it does is, no, you and I are not going to get the same questions, because right off the bat, we might answer the first one differently, and then it's going to, it's going to ask you another question based on that to confirm or affirm, you know where you're at. Yeah, you are Yes,

so, oh, I want to do your, your version of the assessment. Now, my goodness. So do you use the Enneagram for every single person that you work with? Is this a tool that you you use with everybody?

I use it with my one on one clients, and I use it in my program with ascend, and I do use it when I'm working with organizations and they want that information because we're doing like, you know, team dynamics, communication, conflict type stuff, but I have a lot of clients I've never done the Enneagram with. I could probably tell you they are, because it's not necessary. Like, I can ask a few questions and I can really drill down into okay, this is who you are. These are the things that you know. This is how you see the world and how you view yourself in it, and then we can move forward based on some information. So it's not necessary,

yeah. So I want to ask you some something that I struggle with, yeah, and I want to just see, you know, how you work with people about this. So you know when you go, well, you're this, you're this type, and you have a tendency to do this, and you get told this, right? And then you feel like you're pinned into a box, or this, this version of your identity. And from my perspective, I'm like, Okay, this is good information. I like to know about myself. Or, you know, this is good but that you want to take the good

(19:38):
stuff, or the stuff that you perceive to be the positive stuff, and you see the negative stuff as sort of obstacles to your growth or your development or your success or
whatever. So how do you hold space with people who are putting their lens on the things that might be holding them back with regards to the. Their type, or their, you know, motivation, etc.

I am very honest, and I will say, Look, when we dig into this, it's gonna make your butt pucker, or you're gonna have one of those. You're gonna have one of those moments where you're like, Oh yeah, that is me. Or if you're not quite there yet, and you're still kind of operating on autopilot, there could be some denial, like, No, this isn't me, right? It depends on where you're at, but it's all it's it's stuff where we can say that, I do see, you know, if you get to that point, you can say, I see how this is hindering me. I see how where I thought this was just who I am is actually, that's an excuse, right? Like, no, it's not just who I am. I can again, try different behaviors. I can try to think differently. It's an opportunity, but you've gotta be ready to face some of that stuff, because, to your point, like, sometimes we just want to hear about the good stuff. Like, of course, it's me, but if you're in a place where you're, like a lot of people I've seen who know their Enneagram type are in that space of this is just who I am. Here's here's proof that this is who I am and this is how I behave. That's not what the Enneagram is used for, and that's not the work that we're doing in general, right? Even your work, we're not saying this is who I am. This is if we're here and we're showing up to improve ourselves in whatever area of our life, then we're no longer settling for this is who I am. So when we do the Enneagram, it's not this is an excuse for my behavior, though a lot of people use it that way. It's this is who I learned to be. But I'm not stuck in this, there's so much more to me.

Yes, okay, so if we're embracing this, I want to be more. I want to I want to seize this opportunity to learn and grow and go down in different paths. How do you work with people in opening up those doors and actually inviting them in, or giving them a nudge or pushing them off

(22:27):
a cliff, because I know you're such an honest coach, which is what I love about you.

I operate off of a continuum. So I'm going to meet my clients exactly where they're at, right? I'm not going to ask more of them than they're ready for, right? Probably just like you, right? You're not going to have people go from, you know, eating garbage to suddenly their fridge is full of all, right, like we can't move that we can, yeah, it doesn't work. And so if I have somebody who's kind of dipping their toe into learning some things about themselves and recognizing it's not working anymore. Like the thing that got me here is no longer helping me, or I recognize that this is keeping me stuck. Then I meet people exactly where they're at. So if they are still operating on autopilot. Then where we start is, you're just getting curious. You're asking yourself some questions. You're noticing. You're just paying attention to, like, okay, when I communicate with certain people, what is that communication like? Am I defensive? Am I hiding? Like, am I, you know, super passive, or, you know, if I'm going working towards a goal, am I coming up with excuses? Am I right? Like, just like, depending on what we're working on, it's just paying attention. It's just tuning in and recognizing, is this something I do every time? Is this like the go to right?

Yeah. Okay. And then, so, how are you working with people to go from the noticing and the listening and the paying attention to actual behavioral change, yeah.

So then we move into okay. You're recognizing, you're noticing some things. You're picking up on, the fact that this is like a behavior, and you you're when we're an autopilot, we don't even realize we're doing the thing, yeah, it's so

until we get burnt again, and then we realize we're doing the thing. Yeah, uh huh.

It's so ingrained. And so then we move into what I call a rigid stage, which is okay, I recognize these behaviors. I see what I'm doing, how I'm thinking, but I don't really know what to do about changing it right? And so then it's some small steps, right? Just some little things, little tweaks, trying some things out. Because, again, I. I'm not going to go from move somebody from that place all the way to, you know, the other end of the spectrum. First of all, that's not going to work, because we have to do some of this internal work, right? One of the most important things I do with my clients is noticing what we're saying to each other and coming up with something better, right? Not bullshit affirmations, because our dream just does not buy into that, but like a neutral thought, something that keeps us out of spiraling down the drain, right? And so that would probably be an example of what we would do in that next phase where, okay, I'm noticing that I am constantly telling myself I'm not good enough, or I'm shaming myself for the type of leader I am. Okay, cool. When you notice that, you're not going to catch those thoughts every time, but when you do, I want you to think of something like a little bit better than you suck, right? And so we start to practice these little things, because the way we speak to ourselves is, like one of the first things we have to tackle in order to kind of handle a lot of this other stuff.

Yeah, okay, so we're in. I want to get to a concrete example. Let's go through the continuum with you. Oh, yeah, right. So, I mean, I love the example of, I'm not good enough, because that's most of us, right. Will say that to you know, subconsciously or consciously. And so we're in autopilot doing that. We're noticing that we're doing that, and then we move into the rigid phase, right? And so to take me through the continuum with a particular issue, how we would work through it. Okay, I'll

give you an example of a conversation I had today. So I have a client who, in some ways, and this is the other thing to just point out, in some ways, you can be like in the rigid stage, and sometimes you can be in the autopilot stage, like sometimes we go back and forth. We're doing this work on a day to day basis. So in the in the autopilot stage, it was, she is somebody who is very successful. She is a people pleaser, She's a perfectionist, and she is motivated by the need to feel safe and secure. Oh, God,

Unknown (27:26):
were you? Were you having a session with me today?

But she comes off as tough and strong. Doesn't match what's happening inside, right? Like a lot of us, so in the autopilot stage, she was having a lot of physical symptoms, like, I can't sleep. I My body is rejecting food, right? Like a lot of stuff that we know, anxiety, stress can do to us, not quite understanding what was causing it up here, but feeling it right, there were symptoms. And so when we first started working together, it was, I can't keep food down. I'm not hungry. Like, I have no appetite. I can't sleep. I'm like, I have insomnia, all these things. And so to begin with, it was really again, having her notice. Is there a correlation between, like, what's happening in your day to what you're feeling? Are you, I want you to pay attention to that like, Are Are there some like, correlations? Are there some signs right? Of course, there were right. She was, at the time, working for somebody else. It was a very stressful environment. It just was not healthy. So then we start to move into the rigid stage, because she's noticing, she's recognizing this is not a healthy environment. I'm also somebody who is constantly doing worst case scenario. I'm planning for the worst, she's very much like fear based, driven, right? You're like, Aha, I get it. And so, okay, I need you to really practice when you cut yourself, trying to predict the future, right? Not trusting the plan you have in place, not trusting your capabilities. I want you to try to bring yourself back here like, because oftentimes when we are that type of person, we spend a lot of time in the future, which causes a lot of stress. We're trying to predict how people are going to behave, how they're going to treat us, what they think about us. Like, did my work meet their expectations? Oh, my God, it probably didn't. All this projection, right? So again, like bring yourself back here. Also, this is when I when she started to practice questioning or challenging her thoughts, right? So put a post it note up on the computer that reminds you to ask yourself what you're thinking from time to time, check in. Um, challenge the thought. And for her, it was like, I'm not good enough. I'm not safe, like some of these things. So then go ahead. No,

no, no, I'm just, I just want to get some more of these practical things like so you you told her to put a post and stick on her computer. What other practical ways can you redirect yourself away from autopilot,

I'm a big believer, and there's a lot of research out there on visual cues, right? So things because when we're shifting from autopilot to rigid or we're in autopilot, we are not trained. We are not in the habit of checking in at all right? Like it's just not who we are. We are zooming on we are numb to what's happening, right? Yeah? It's more comfortable to just not deal with it, yeah. So if we want to get to a place where we're starting to notice and we're doing something about it, it's helpful to have visual cues. So I love post it notes. I have clients who I have them change the password on their computer to be like a prompt of some kind. I like that, yeah? Whether it's to remind them to check in or it's what they want to be saying to themselves, right? Whatever

I'm changing my password to. I am amazing.com.

I have mine right now that says I am strong, like I have to remind myself, like I can handle stuff anyway. The other thing I love is you could put an alarm in your phone and name the alarm, right? Just like little things like that, yeah, that until it becomes a habit, which it will right eventually, when you move into the next stage, you're at that point where you're checking in and you don't need reminders, but when we're first starting out with anything, right, even with your clients who are trying to make changes. These little reminders are good, yeah. So I love that one. And an example of like, how you would challenge your thought. You know, it's about the pause. And for somebody like her, who's trying is so far ahead of things, you've got to kind of bring you back, right? And so I always give the example of myself. For me, one of the nastiest things I say to myself that I'm constantly working on is surrounding me as a single mom. Like, I'm always questioning, am I screwing my kids up? Like, is it my right? Like, what am I doing wrong? Oh, my God, I screwed up. I see whatever. And so when I find myself starting to go down that spiral, I ask myself, Is this thought useful? Nope, definitely not. What can I think instead, again, something I can believe? And I just tell myself, I'm doing the best I can, and that gets me out of that place, right? Of going down that spiral, ruining my day, spending hours thinking about it, whatever. And so if we're talking about this client, very similar practice, but around those things that we were talking about,

yeah, okay, love it. I could just get tips from you all day long. Okay, so we've gone from autopilot into rigid, and we may go back and forth. And yes, I can totally see myself doing that every day. Yep. And then what's the next? The next bit on the continuum,

the next move is to adaptive, and that's really where you are. You are starting to become aware of the things you want to change. So maybe it's behaviors, maybe maybe it's ways of thinking, and maybe it's you're recognizing blind spots that are holding you back. You have learned you're figuring those things out. You're not stuck in rigid where you're hesitating to change because you're fighting all of that stuff, and now you're kind of at that place where you're like, Okay, this I see how this is impacting my growth, my success, my relationships, my health, whatever it is. And now I want to put some things into action. Okay,

so give us some tips about being in the adaptive state, some of these tools

that, yeah. So I'll just go back to the same example, because we're kind of following, let's keep, let's keep

working with her, which could be

some of it, yeah, yeah. So an example is, you know, she has been doing this work for some time, but again, when we get stressed, we do default to some of these old behaviors, old way of old ways of thinking, right? And so she has progressed to owning her own business. Now she's, you know, doing wonderfully in a. The relationship, like all these great things that have happened along this continuum, but she's human, and other people are human, and we have to realize that that's a thing too, right? And she is having some stress related to her work, and as a result, she's not being so kind to her husband. She's doing as a way to deal with it. So just trying to be active, like cooking and cleaning and like rearranging things, doing all this stuff, right?

(35:37):
And I'm just laughing, you know? Because I know, yeah, that's what I do. Yeah, okay.
And in her head, she's stressing about finances. Again, remember, this individual is motivated by the need to feel secure and safe. Yeah, money can be a real trigger for somebody like this, right? Even though she's financially secure, she's still, when she's stressed, defaults to struggling with this. And the other thing that happens is she becomes hyper critical of herself, right? So you're not good enough. You screwed this thing up, projecting like I told you, like assuming that a client thinks she's terrible at her job, and making up all of these stories and thinking, Oh my God, if I get, if I lose all my clients, I'm going to be, you know, on the street and home, like all this stuff that happens, right? So when we're in this stage, we can see all of this. We recognize now all of that this is happening, but now we can, like, do something with it. So for her, she has to find a place where she can move away from the doing and achieving and trying to like, avoid what's happening, and move more into like rest, being kinder to herself in terms of how she's speaking to herself, right, asking for help and and reassuring herself that she is doing a good job, right, asking herself, am I making stuff up? Am I projecting right? What's going on? So really kind of tuning in more and making a shift in response to that.

So give me some practical tools around that.

So one of the things that we talked through is, when I have clients like this, I will have them go down to worst case scenario. So when they're spiraling about what's happening and what they're afraid of, I say, Okay, well, let's, let's go there. What if that happens? What are you going to do? And being able to say, Oh, well, I would do this, and I have this, it brings us back to I'm fine, like i i There's no reason for me to be in this place of freaking out and and going down. But when that is like the default and fear is, you know, we have in the Enneagram, we have what's called our virtues and our trying to blink right now. Anyway, this place where we keeps us stuck, and then the place that is the opposite, right? And for this and per specific client, fear is the place that keeps her stuck. And we're constantly working on courage and bravery, right, right, and stepping into that. And so a lot of the work she's doing now is recognizing, like, you know, in my relationship, am I relying on that person to lead me versus Am I leading myself? And so what can we do to help you practice leading yourself and not looking for reassurances all the time?

And what's something you can do to practice leading yourself?

For her, it's making decisions, being very decisive. So as an example, she bought a new house, and she spent like hours thinking about buying a particular thing for the home. And I said, just buy the damn thing like or don't just make the decision, right? And we have to practice. So if that's the thing, if you're somebody who's just constantly spending time in that place you have to just make the decision. Doesn't matter which one it is, just make the decision.

Yeah, oh gosh, you know, I interviewed a decision coach, Nell wolf heart, and she was talking about how we spend so much more time actually making. The decision than taking action on the decision, you know, and that more time spent making the decision doesn't equate to a better decision. It was such a backdrop moment for me. I went, Oh, yeah, I fall into that too. Okay,

so certain personalities that struggle with decision making, yes, and that's that's important for them to hear that? Yeah,

oh gosh. Okay. So from Adaptive, where do we go on the continuum, from there, adaptive

moves into transfer, full transformation. We're working our whole life to get to that last piece. So we're oftentimes somewhere in that place. I would say for myself, that's where I'm at, and what where you're at once you get to transformation is you don't connect with any particular motivation, personality trait, you are. You're doing all of it right. There's no like, hang up. There's no this is, this is just how I behave, or, you know, you're willing to try different things, behave different ways, think different, you know, things, all of these things that make us really kind of evolve into that place.

Oh, so we're all wanting to get to the transformation phase. And then would you move between adaptive and transformation, or you you want to stay in transformation.

I think that there are very few people that are completely in the train in I was gonna say,

Who are these people? They're monks, right? Yeah, totally. I was gonna say that exact thing about

it. We're constantly being tested socially, in relationship, like we're practicing our whole lives, and we screw up a lot, you know, like, I'm, I'm honest with my clients, and I say, we don't do this perfectly. You're gonna have things where you go, oh shit, right. Like, that was not a good move. I do it, right? Yeah, but if you can go I screwed up, like I'm trying to do better, and I recognize like I didn't, I am defaulting. I'm moving back into some of these ways of thinking or behaving. I'm going to go back and repair whatever happened, or I'm going to change the direction, or I'm gonna, you know that means you're really moving, yeah, able to recognize

Yeah. So in your
your VIP group ascend, where you're with a group of the same group of people for months and months and months, like half a year, how are you all holding space together and helping each other be in that adaptive, listening, awareness place all the Time?

It's a beautiful space, and I just it. The first call we have, we create rules for the group, right? So this is how we're going to operate. This is what you know, how we're going to create this safe container. This is, you know, what we all agree on. And from the get go, there's an understanding that there's some safety there. What happens is, and this is what I think is one of the best things about it, is everybody's different, not necessarily different in what they're trying to achieve, because it's leaders and entrepreneurs, female leaders and entrepreneurs. So there are some common goals, but everybody's different, like we talked about, right? Different personalities, different core motivations, different same challenges, but different reasons for those challenges, right? So, like, one person might struggle with boundaries because they like to be in control, while another person might struggle with boundaries because there are people pleaser, right? But they're still both struggling. So two things happen. One is, if you start to go, I'm not alone, like, I'm not the only one who struggles with this, right? There are more people like, right? The other piece is, because there are different personalities in the group, you get to try on different perspectives. You get to understand where other people are coming from. And one of the most important pieces of work we do is in recognizing, like, my way of thinking and believing is not the only way, right? Yeah, that's another way. Oh, okay, I hadn't thought about it. And so then you start to have these shared experiences, and people are giving their own points of view and perspectives, and so you can quickly evolve and and know. This, like, oh, this actually would be better for me if I approach it this way, or if I thought differently. And so that element naturally happens in the group while we're doing work.

Yeah, yeah, I want to ask you about conflict with others, because you work with teams as well, and about team building and communication and conflict resolution and so forth. So, you know, I always find that the most vexing part of life that you know
you can't make other people do what you want them to
do. Be in this world with people who are relentlessly being there and while you're relentlessly being here, yes, right? And so in terms of conflict, give give us some tools about that. When you might feel like you've got all this awareness and you're making choices and you're feeling good about what you're doing and the other person's not on board with what you're doing, Yep,

yeah. So there's what we call interaction styles, and there are conflict styles. Interaction styles are how we behave in order to get what we want. And conflict styles are how we behave when we don't get what we want. Yeah. And if you have two people with very different interaction styles, things either get ugly or nothing happens, right? It's like one or the other. And so if you have more of an aggressive, you know, assertive type style, and you're communicating with someone who is more like trying to get along, you know, maybe they like to be, they like to have all the information. Or there's somebody who is just kind of goes along like goes with the flow. Then if, then the person who's not speaking up isn't going to feel like they've contributed or they're getting what they need, and the person who's assertive is completely overlooking everybody else. And so again, this starts with asking yourself, learning, what is my style? How do I show up in relationship? How do I show up in conflict? And noticing, is it effective with this particular individual? Because sometimes that is like our dominant style is effective, right? But oftentimes it's not. And so the most ideal situation, and what I am working with teams on all the time, is we both bend a little right, and we get to that middle point where I'm seeing your perspective. You're seeing my perspective. We come in the middle, and we can have productive conversations, because conflict is productive if it's done right. We need conflict to progress, to grow, to get shit done.

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. But

I was just going to say, if we are so stuck in our way, and this is how I communicate, and the other person is so stuck in their way, then nothing productive happens, right? And you either have people who are, like, completely unaware that that was not a good conversation, or people who are just really upset,

yeah? Give me an example of, you know, if I came to you and said, Yeah, well, I, you know, I think we should run the meeting this way, and the person goes, well, no, I don't want to do that. Yeah. So how do I meet in the

middle? Yeah? Again, this is an awareness thing, so I'll give you an I'll give you a real example. So I have a team I work with where the leader is very assertive. She's very reactive, and so she doesn't have the most flowery approach to her communication. She's very direct. She can be a bit impulsive in terms of response, right? If she's like, pissed off about something that comes in, right? And so we've had to do a lot of work around, okay, you have employees who don't respond well to that. Some people, they love direct communication. They don't want the flowery stuff, right? But other people, they need that. They need, you know, a little validation. They need a little, you know, acknowledgement. They need you to soften things a little bit. Doesn't mean that you're not managing well. You're not leading well, because, again, we have to acknowledge this does work sometimes, but you gotta read the room. You gotta understand who you're communicating with. And on the flip side, I've worked with the employees that you know report to her, and some are like, I love the way she leads, because I just want to know where I stand. I want to get in. Information and move on. And then you have other people who want to be able to ask questions. They want to be able to get information, to feel like they're moving forward. And so for the for the employee, I will say, you need to let her know how you need to be managed. You need to communicate when we can, when we talk, when you're giving me a directive, or when you know I'm sitting down with you, this is what I need, right? This is the type of communications that effective. I know. This is how you communicate. Can we somehow meet in the middle and she's becoming aware of the impact, and when she can be direct and when she needs to pull back,

yeah? Oh gosh, look the awareness piece, right? I mean, just being aware, listening, noticing, reading the room, responding as as your adult self, rather than being triggered as your child, your child, for sure, but that's

what we're doing, right? We're showing up in the way that we learn to show up and we don't realize it. So if we're operating on autopilot, we're still doing those same things. They just don't work in the same way, especially if we've got big goals and we're trying to,

you know, progress, yeah. So speaking about goals, because, I mean, I think we're all goal oriented, whether we are hyper aware of it or not, or we're sitting, you know, setting huge goals, or, you know, so called Little ones, they're all goals. So how do you measure that with somebody in terms of, you know, setting a goal and making sure that your behavior is in alignment with heading towards reaching that goal?

Yeah, that's a good question. I can have two clients who have the exact same goal, and oftentimes that is the case, right? Because I work with women in leadership type roles, but if they have a different they're going to be different, right? This is what I don't love about the cookie cutter stuff. You and I have talked about this, right? We have people who are like, I reached this goal, and if you follow my process, you can too, right? No, that doesn't work, because we're all different. We're all starting from a different point, but also we're all motivated by different things. So if you know, if two people are working towards the same goal, not only does the approach need to be different, right, but the goal might have to shift a little bit too, right? And so I am a because of my own experience and the goals I chase that I didn't actually want. I like to start kind of on the like, flip things around, and I want people to identify. How do you want to feel when you achieve this goal? Is this goal going to make you feel that way? Right? Is this the goal you actually want? Or is it society telling you you should pursue it because you're a woman, or is it an industry thing, right? Why do we want this goal? Once we figure out the goal is something you actually want, then it becomes okay based on who you are and what motivates you, this is how we need to approach it, right? So backing into that and figuring out, you know, like, if it's if I'm working with somebody who is like fun, has to be a part of the process. That's going to look very different than somebody like me who just, I just want to work really hard, and I like to hurt, like, it's just who I am. It's got to be challenging. Our process is going to look different. That person is going to need to have some fun woven in, like, you know, some celebration, some whatever, right? Whereas I just want to, like, dig in and be challenged. And so there's nothing wrong with either of those things, but they meet us where we're at, and then we do that work that we've talked about this whole hour on in terms of, like, what's happening in your head. Are these behaviors, like, helpful, or are they holding you back, like, all of that stuff.

I really love this core question, Is this helpful?
I mean, it's just such a great question, yeah, yeah. It's such a great question. It doesn't and the

other thing is, it doesn't matter if it's true, like, who cares? Doesn't matter if it's true. If it's not helpful, then we can't be thinking it,

yeah, oh, that's, that's an important differentiator, right? It could be true or not, yeah, it's,

usually it's not, but Right? Yes,

that's why I love the worst case scenario exercise, because often it is just so it's so inflated. Hated and so far beyond what, what could ever happen? Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, seriously, oh my goodness. The stories we tell each other and the stories we tell ourselves, it's unbelievable. Yeah, yeah. Look again, like you and I have spoken about the importance of individual, personalized coaching, and actually having these multiple touch points and this consistency with a coach, which is what you do so well in your practice, whether it's one on one coaching or through ascend your VIP group, with group coaching and so forth, just being able to really dig in with people and and come up with personalized solutions that can adapt and change as you grow and change. Yeah, and

that's part of it too. Is what I'm sure you do this with your clients, but like nothing set in stone. So we'll leave a call and I'll say, I want you to try this, but it might not work, and then we're going to come back to the drawing board and you're going to try something else. But you know, that's what it's all about, is again, it's not cookie cutter. There's not just one way of doing things. There's not one way of getting to the goal. And that's what's important for us to all recognize.

Yeah, we can change our minds, and we can get another tool out of the toolbox or or acquire another tool, etc. Yeah, I it look. I just love what you do and the way that you coach people, and also just being so incredibly honest with yourself and others. I mean, otherwise, what's the point? Yeah, yeah. This is the other thing I really love about your coaching style. So I always close every interview with the same question, which is, for somebody that has a dream in their heart and doesn't feel like they have what it takes to make

(56:59):
it happen, what would you say to them?

I would say bullshit.

I love you, yes. Because

if it's there, it that right there means that you want it, and most of us are willing to at least try. Now, if you're somebody who is afraid of taking action because of perfection or a fear of failure, then we just start small baby steps. But I'm a big believer in in making the effort and proving ourselves wrong. If you're in that head space where you're like, I want to do this thing, but I don't think I can Okay prove yourself wrong, right? But I think we are all capable of so much, and we don't give ourselves credit for it. And when you do the work on yourself and you learn more about yourself, you realize like, how much potential you actually have. So yeah,

oh yeah. Oh, listen, join Kelly's world. It's even more delicious than you have experienced in this conversation. So thank you for the way that you're showing up in the world.

Thank you, Tess, I appreciate this conversation. You.

All Episodes

The Enneagram: What Drives Your Choices? | 051

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial

Good Hang with Amy Poehler

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The Enneagram: What Drives Your Choices? | 051