December 3, 2024 • 38 mins
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This episode was recorded in 2022.
Kimberly is joined by a very special guest, her husband, Rob! This was the second time Rob joined the podcast so if you missed the first episode, make sure you go back and listen to the episode about Introverts vs. Extroverts.
In this episode, they both discuss what intellectually attracted them to each other when they first met. You will hear Rob and Kimberly answer questions from the listeners about working on intellectual attraction with your spouse when you have no interest in the same hobbies or likes.
This is a fun episode with lots of laughs and great perspectives from both spouses on being more intellectually attractive.
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
🔗 Website: https://itstartswithattraction.com
📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On today's podcast, we are going to be talking about
intellectual attraction.
I get a lot of questions aboutintellectual attraction all the
way from what does it even meanto well, how do I go about being
more intellectually attractedand attractive to the people in
my life?
Today, I have a special guestwith me to talk about this topic
(00:21):
.
The special guest is my husband, Rob Holmes.
Thank you, You're welcome.
Are you saying thank you for mecalling you my special guest?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Just thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Oh, you're welcome.
You're very special to me andin my life.
So, as a recap to anyone whomay not be familiar or is just
joining the podcast, thispodcast is all about helping
people become the mostattractive they can be, and
there's actually four areas ofattraction.
We call it the PIS.
That stands for physical,intellectual, emotional and
spiritual attraction.
(00:55):
And so physical attraction, aswe know, doesn't just have to do
with how we look.
It also has to do with how wefeel.
Intellectual attraction, if youwere to boil it down to a
question, would be this Am I afascinating person to talk to?
And in thinking about yourrelationship with someone else,
the question you may ask is isthis someone that I enjoy having
(01:19):
a conversation with?
Do we have shared interests,shared hobbies, but also enough
diversity within us that we arecontinuing to learn from and
with each other?
So intellectual attraction isreally that part of the
relationship that you begin tohave those shared commonalities
and do life together.
And then, of course, the E goesinto emotional attraction.
(01:41):
Does this person evoke emotionswithin me that I enjoy feeling,
and also, am I evoking emotionswithin them that they enjoy
feeling?
And then spiritual attractionis all about living consistent
beliefs and values and having aspouse or significant other that
shares the core beliefs andvalues that you have as well.
That would be a great episodefor Rob and I to do about
(02:02):
spiritual attraction later, buttoday we're talking about
intellectual attraction.
So I had Rob on a previousepisode of the it Starts With
Attraction podcast and it wasabout a year ago and it was the
episode that we coveredintroverts versus extroverts,
and so before we get into thetopic of today on intellectual
attraction, rob would like tomake a correction.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Just a quick correction.
In that podcast I stated thatextroverts get a greater
dopamine hit from socializationand social interaction than
introverts.
It turns out that when you diginto the literature I am wrong.
That is just.
It's an easy correction becauseit's just 180 degree turn.
It's just the opposite.
Introverts will actually get agreater dopamine spike and
(02:49):
greater satiation If you were tocompare it to hunger from
social interaction.
That's why introverts are oftenjust kind of by themselves,
because they feel full sociallyand they don't really feel like
they need more socialinteraction at that time.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So there you have it, folks.
We now have on record myhusband saying I am wrong.
So I just want the producers totake that clip for me to use to
my own advantage at some pointin the future.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, Okay, but if anything, that means that
introverts actually love peoplemore than extroverts.
So you know that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
That's interesting.
So if you are interested toknow more about what we talked
about in that episode, be sureto go and listen to that.
There may also be a link to itin the show notes.
Listen to Rob and I talk aboutintroverts versus extroverts and
it's interesting becauseactually we'll get more into
this later, but Rob and I werelistening to a podcast Growing
Our Intellectual AttractionTogether, where it was about
(03:55):
social interactions and theytalked about introverts
extroverts, and that's where welearned about that dopamine
spike in a way, it's a greatpodcast, but, rob, the first
question I want to ask you as westart talking about
intellectual attraction is whatfirst intellectually attracted
you to me?
(04:17):
And I don't know the answer tothis.
This is the first time I'veasked him.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Intellectually you were driven and I knew you were
getting good grades.
And in undergrad I had goofedoff and I got.
I think my undergraduate GPAwas 2.96 when.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I finally graduated.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So you have to round that up to even apply to grad
school and you were getting likea 3.8 or 9.
So I was impressed with thatand I like that, I was attracted
to that.
I was like, well, obviouslyshe's intellectually capable of
good grades.
I would argue, I am too, butyou know.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You just didn't apply yourself At all so.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Your grade point average was definitely not a
reflection of your smartness.
Good, that's good, I can saythat.
So we started dating in college.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
for those of you who didn't put that together?
I was.
You were in college.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I had graduated?
Yeah, so, but we started dating.
Was it at the end of mysophomore year?
Yeah, it was the.
No, it was the first semesterof my, or the, the winter
semester of my sophomore year.
The second semester of mysophomore year because we got
married right after my firstsemester of my junior year,
which is crazy.
So you were intellectuallyattracted to me because I made
(05:31):
good grades.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
You made good grades.
It was clear that you wereintellectually driven.
It wasn't just that you gotgood grades.
A lot of people can get goodgrades, and it's not that
they're stupid, because ifyou're in college getting good
grades, you're probably smartit's just that they're not
intellectually hungry for morethan you are.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Mm-hmm, I would say what intellectually attracted me
to you.
It was very attractive that youwere starting flight school,
because that takes a level ofcommitment and you know smarts
to be able to learn all of that,apply it and do something with
(06:13):
it.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I did study more in a year and a half of flight
school than four years ofcollege.
Yes, by far.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, To like the 10th magnitude probably.
I studied way more so yeah.
I can see that.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And I remember helping you study.
I was thinking about this lastnight.
It was your fives and nines butI think there is something that
is attractive about watchingsomeone.
It's kind of what you saidabout me, about watching someone
like be hungry for knowledgeand learn and then apply that
knowledge and you're able to seean outcome of it in some way
(06:50):
right Like.
I think that's one of those.
Basis is about.
Intellectual attraction isyou're seeing someone learn and
grow.
They're not just stayingstagnant.
That's good.
So let's talk about now.
I mean over the years.
So we've been married 11 yearsnow.
We've changed right, you're nolonger a pilot, you left flight
(07:13):
school and so that thing thatmaybe initially attracted me to
you intellectually isn'tnecessarily still a part of your
life, but I'm stillintellectually attracted to you
for different reasons whichwe'll get into.
But what would you say that youhave done over the past 11
years to continue to work onyour own intellectual attraction
(07:36):
?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Video games?
No, I did.
As you know, I pursued highereducation.
I got my MBA just because itwas online.
But, you know, after I stoppedbeing a police officer, I was
like, well, I have to dosomething.
So I immediately enrolled.
I think it was a day after Iquit PD I enrolled in an MBA
(07:59):
program.
Uh, it is online.
But you know, I learned a lot.
I got my MBA 3.8 GPA.
So I was actually trying thattime.
And besides that, I, if you knowthings, you can do things that
people who don't know you knowthink about it this way how does
(08:31):
, how does a lawyer make so muchmoney?
Well, it's, it's what they know.
Um, they know the law, and ifthey know the law better than
anyone else and how to apply itbetter than anyone else, they're
better and they'll make moremoney, mm-hmm.
Uh, the same could go for adoctor or any other specialist.
So, you know, trying to learnmore, because I see it as a
(08:52):
means of just a better life, notfor money necessarily, although
it can be valuable for that,but you can have a richer life
if you know things, if I know.
Okay, if I'm feeling kind ofpoopy in the evening and my mood
is just meh.
If I know that I take somemagnesium and some other
(09:13):
supplements that'll kind of liftmy mood a little bit, or if I
know that spending time withfamily and putting down the
electronics and the screens inthe evening will long-term cause
me to have a higher degree ofhappiness, more oxytocin and
things like that which will helpbalance out my brain chemicals,
well then I'm having a richerlife and it doesn't take a
(09:36):
single penny to learn that.
And you just got to get onGoogle.
And then, because of the MBA, Ilearned how to dig deeper with
research that has opened updoors to things completely
unrelated to business.
It's allowed me to use themagic Google or whatever search
(09:57):
engine Google is the best,unfortunately, but it is what it
is and type in researchquestions and find scholarly,
peer reviewed sources, so thatI'm not reading like a business
insider article on somebody'sopinion or interpolation of the
actual research data, but to getto the data itself.
And even though I struggle tooften understand it if it's in
(10:21):
lingo, that is like if it'smedical, I'm not a medical or
science person, so yeah, youknow, but that's also what
google is for.
What does that word mean?
What does autophagy mean.
Well, what does muscle proteinsynthesis mean?
And you know, you can look itup and I guess that's kind of
what I've done and I alreadykind of know what you've done,
but I want to answer for youwhat have I done?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
answer for I won't answer for you.
What have I?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
done?
Answer for me You're working onyour PhD you have.
So, after after we got married,Kimberly did leave
undergraduate studies atLipscomb university in order to
move all the way around theworld to the Republic of Korea
with me.
But she definitely didn't stopcollege.
She enrolled online, completedher undergrad, immediately
(11:07):
enrolled in a graduate program.
Um, and she's kind of beengoing, she.
She started with marriage andfamily therapy, went with
psychology instead, got amaster's in psychology.
Now you work on your PhD inperformance psychology.
Yay, so fun.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So fun.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So fun and.
But I know you are thirsty forknowledge, you're working a lot,
so that kind of impedes, youknow, if I'm throughout the day
because I do home flipping andI'm not in a season where I'm
working on a project right now,I just got out of some
litigation and things like that,that kind of tied things up so
throughout the day I just havetime to research whatever I feel
(11:51):
like researching.
I just, just, you know, aquestion pops to mind and I can
just dig into that and I canspend an hour or two hours just
researching a given topic, justjust because you don't have that
luxury.
But I know you are thirsty forknowledge and you do have to do
a lot of research because ofyour PhD program.
(12:11):
It just has to be focused, notnecessarily everything you want
it to be.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, that's true, and you and I I mean not
everyone is going to have theformal education or want the
formal education like you and Ihave, and you don't need to.
That's not part of what youhave to have in order to have to
be intellectually attractive toother people.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
That's just what you and I have done.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I made it sound like you have to go get your master's
in something you don't know,you don't really don't, but
there are other ways.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So one of the things that I say to people when I'm
asked this question on podcastsanother thing that we know about
our brains and as socialcreatures is that we also form
deeper bonds with people that welove when we share new
experiences with them,experiences with them.
(13:06):
So that's part of intellectualattraction, because it gives you
a shared experience, a sharedinterest, things that you can
talk about other than just.
You know, when you're married,you tend to get into the rut of
talking about just kids orfinances or the quote unquote
business side of marriage, whichthat's what drains the life out
of it.
You don't want to come home andjust talk about the problems
and the kids and so on and soforth.
You want to talk about the funthings and so some other
(13:28):
non-educational or non-formaleducational ways that we have
worked on, or I know at least.
I mean I will say we is.
We love new experiences.
So traveling is part of that,whether internationally or even
just domestically, or even justthings like exploring a new.
I love hiking, so exploring anew hiking trail, exploring some
(13:51):
new parks, even having a eating, a different type of cuisine,
or going to a new type ofrestaurant you've never been to,
and sharing that experiencewith your spouse helps you to
become more intellectuallyattracted to each other, and a
lot of people don't realize justthose small things help you
(14:12):
have more fun and sharedexperiences, even going to a
local museum I was thinkingabout the times that we've gone
to we live here in Nashville, sothe Frist Center and even in
especially, I think, especiallywhen they have the crazy
exhibits that are just like thisis art.
Rob doesn't love them so much,but you can think back to them
(14:35):
and we laugh about it, likeremember the guy that had made
like the Cousin it's and it waslike a bunch of shoes when the
janitor mistakes it for garbageand picks it up in the middle of
the night, I think we'vecrossed the barrier out of art.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Or when someone drops a McDonald's wrapper on the
floor in an art exhibit and thena bunch of people huddle around
it because they think it's artbut it's not.
Again, I think we've startedcrossing lines that men were
never meant to cross.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, but that that leads to it and other ways that
you can work on or that you'vedone, is in staying
intellectually attractive orlike working on yourself in that
way.
You watch a lot ofdocumentaries.
I don't like documentaries, I'mnot as big of a documentary
person, but you watch a lot ofdocumentaries.
I probably read more books thanyou because that's just my
(15:26):
favorite medium.
So, again, you don't have to dothe same types of things.
You don't even always have tohave the same shared interests,
but continuing to be interestedin and growing in what it is you
like to do and then finding ashared interest or a shared
commonality that you can sharewith your spouse is a great way
to do it.
Now here's a question that I'vegotten a lot, especially in
(15:48):
prepping for this podcast andasking some of the people on
Instagram to submit theirquestions about this.
Some people have said so.
What do you do if your desiresor your interest, the things you
want to learn, are so differentfrom your spouse's?
I think you and I have a lot ofthat.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
We do, but we have commonality too, and it's hard
because the things that I'mexclusively interested in, you
generally are not, and viceversa.
You can talk for an hour abouthiking and I'll just sit there,
probably because I don't.
I'll.
I'll do it, but I don't love it.
Kind of like you'll dress upfor the ren fair but you don't
(16:28):
love it don't love it, and sowe'll tolerate each other's
hobbies, because we know yeah wedon't talk about it a lot
because it'd be a one-wayconversation.
so you, you have to findsomething, something even if
it's something that neither ofyou knew you were aware you were
interested in yet.
In other words, if he'sinterested in video games and
(16:51):
you're interested in art andfashion, find something new that
neither of you has necessarilydiscovered you're interested in
yet.
Maybe health, that's somethingyou and I share a lot.
So we, a lot of ourconversations in the evening,
revolve around healthfulness,being healthy, or attraction,
(17:17):
even the human dynamics ofattraction.
Those are things, and that'snot just physical, although it
encompasses that it that it's alot of things.
So, in travel, oh, in travel,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Even just and even the research backs this but even
just talking about places wewant to go, even if we're not
actually traveling, just makingplans and having the
anticipation of a future, youknow, travel experience, even
that is something that can bondus.
So even just looking atpictures of places and you know
(17:52):
we have that Google thing or theAmazon fire stick and it shows
those pictures when it you knowthe what do you call it?
Slideshow, you know whatscreensaver, and we'll just look
at it and say we got to figureout where that place is and so
I'll like take a picture of itwith my phone and try and search
it on Google and we'll market.
So we'll market for a futureplace that we want to do.
(18:13):
But we really do have a havevery many different interests.
Rob and I do like we had to workon, especially the first
several years of our marriage.
We had to work on finding thosecommon interests with each
other.
And also because anotherquestion that someone had was
(18:34):
that well, I just don't.
I mean it kind of goes alongwith what we just said.
But they said you know myhusband this was a woman asking
she said my husband really justloves his work and what he does.
It's kind of in the healthfield.
He is a doctor, but the kind ofdoctor he is, he's very
interested.
And she just said I have nointerest in that.
(18:57):
And I mean, what would you sayto that?
Because I do think there was atime, especially at the
beginning of our marriage, weweren't finding common ground
and I may have been the firstone to coalesce and kind of lean
in and say, okay, tell me moreabout Renaissance fairs, or tell
(19:17):
me more about, or that was likeat the beginning of our
marriage.
You were playing a lot of videogames and so I would kind of
just say, okay, like I'll tryplaying this one with you.
I did not love it but I tried.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You did.
I think this is morecomplicated because you know
he's.
It sounds like he's an MD, um,unless she's ready to go get her
MD, whether he realizes it ornot, or she realizes it or not,
there is more that he'sinterested in than just the work
.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Finding that's going to be hard.
Right, it's the finding thatit's finding it, finding it's
hard and you have to explore alot of boring things that you're
really not interested in.
You have to be open-minded.
I haven't climbed like rockclimbed in years, but I know you
love it.
I haven't climbed like rockclimbed in years, but I know you
(20:10):
love it.
What if I get back into it andI'm like, actually I think I do
like this again?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Oh my gosh, that would be so great.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You know, when I'm not so fat and it's not so hard
because my belly doesn't like upagainst the wall.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
What a visual.
What a visual for our listeners.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Just imagine me like up against the wall, my belly's
like so yeah, you have to findit, and that's that's where it's
hard.
And it may not be hobby related.
He, he may not have hobbies oryou know actively, yeah, but but
then you know, you may.
You may say, hey, I, I booked aweekend trip to lake such and
(20:48):
such.
Um, I'd love it if we couldjust kind of go kayaking
together.
And maybe, you know, maybe he'snever tried that and from that
point forward he's like I lovekayaking, let's do more kayaking
trips yeah just an example.
He's probably tried kayaking umyeah and it's gonna be hard,
especially because there aresome personality types out there
who poo poo everything like oh,I don't like that because and
(21:08):
it's like, work with me, right,and that that was a great thing
that helped me be intellectuallyattracted to you, and I hope
vice versa is that we arewilling to try new things, even
when we're like I predict I'mnot going to love this.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, we going to love this.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, we saw.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Sing 2.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
We did, and I thought , man, I'm not going to like it.
It was great.
It was better than the firstone, it was phenomenal.
It was such a good movie andI'm very glad that I didn't just
shut it down.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
There's been a lot of .
I can't think of more examples,but there's been a lot of
things like that Indian food.
I really thought I was going tohate Indian food, and from bite
number one.
I did let's just say I'mlooking forward to lunch today.
Uh, it's made by an Indian lady, or a neighborhood who cooks
for us.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Shout out to my heck.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
We love it.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And uh, yeah, so it's one of those things you got to
find it, yeah, and it's hard.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And it is hard, and you know, because I know my
audience and I know half thesepeople are probably in a
situation where maybe they'reseparated or their, their
relationship is just in thatunsteady ground.
And we'll get to this topicnext.
You might be saying, well, youknow, my, my husband or my wife
just won't even, they won't evenlike if I brought that up.
Let's go on a weekend trip.
(22:22):
They're uninterested at thispoint.
Well then, it may be up to youright now to, number one, work
on your own intellectualattraction.
So keep learning, keep addingnew hobbies, trying new things,
just for your own good.
But then, secondly, try andlean in just a little bit to
something you know they'reinterested in.
So even to one of the ladies onInstagram who said I just have
(22:46):
no interest, I get that, but canyou bite the bullet for just a
period of time to learn a littlemore so that you can at least,
when he wants to talk about it,know enough about it that you
can carry on a conversation?
So thankfully, Rob doesn't lovepolitics as much as he used to,
but when he did love politicswhich I literally have no
(23:07):
interest in I would at least tryand keep up on some things, so
that at the end of the day, whenRob was saying I read this or I
read that and this is happening, I would have a bit of an
understanding or I would atleast lean into asking him more
questions about it.
So I would ask things like well, why is that happening?
(23:30):
What is the history in that?
And that's something I still dotoday.
I think just last night I wasasking you a question I don't
even remember what it was now,but it was something was on the
Big Bang Theory and I was likewell, tell is, tell me the
history of that.
Like, why is that a deal?
What is what is the thing aboutthat?
(23:51):
And that's something that Robloves when I ask him, because
he's able to share his knowledgewith me.
He's able to share If.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
I know.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And sometimes he doesn't know and that's fine too
.
Then you just make stuff up andact like you know.
I always know when he's makingthings up because his answer is
ridiculous.
But even humor, like that'sanother thing intellectually
attractive about you and youcould even say that goes some
into emotional attraction.
But you're a very witty person,like you're a very funny.
(24:23):
The way you think was veryattractive to me because you are
funny, funny looking.
No, funny, funny.
Like he wants to write a book,and he should.
He should have a series ofchildren's books, and there's
one that he has this idea ofabout the avocados.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Two avocados trying to escape a vegan restaurant in
Austin, Texas, where they'rebanding together to try and save
their own lives from the veganswho want to consume them.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I don't know if I should kill one of the
characters off at the end or not.
It's eaten by a vegan One ofthe avocados It'll be a
children's book, so maybe not,mommy, I'm only going to eat
meat from now on, so this I'monly going to eat meat from now
on.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So this is not.
We're not promoting veganism orcarnivorism.
No, don't send your hate mail.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
We just find it a funny, funny topic.
But yeah, no, and, and one ofthe things to say to anyone who
has, let's say, you're separatedor borderline separated, or
you're in that phase of marriagethat is so on the rocks, it
doesn't matter what you say,your spouse hates everything
(25:32):
that comes out of your mouth,that I'm going to look at you
and, man, that's a rough spot tobe in.
Uh, I'm only ever in that spotbefore 6 00 am, but, but if
you're in that spot before 6 am,but, but if you're in that spot
, um, you have to, veryseriously, you have to work on
(25:52):
yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You know that spouse and maybe they've over time been
very disparaging towards you ortold you that you're not smart
and you're really concernedbecause you you may feel stupid.
I'm here to tell you you're notstupid, that's good.
Do something for you, not asrevenge against them, but
something that they'll see andbe like oh huh, get that real
(26:16):
estate license.
Maybe he'll be like oh, Ididn't think she was capable of
that.
Well, now that she has a realestate license, she could get a
job.
If I left her she wouldn't behelpless.
So maybe I should you know,maybe mind myself a little bit
better Get that life insuranceproducer license.
Go attend that course at acommunity college to learn
(26:38):
something, whatever that may be,whether you're passionate about
it or not.
I can't tell you the amount oftimes I was sitting there
writing papers in my MBA programand I know for a fact you feel
the same way even though you'reinterested in psychology.
You feel that way about your PhDprogram.
You're sitting there writingthe paper and you're like I
(26:58):
would rather have my teethpulled out with a plier right
now At least it wouldn't beboring out with a plier, right
now, at least it wouldn't beboring.
So you know, kind of forceyourself to learn certain things
that you think are important tolearn.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
But you know, another part, going back to what we
said at the beginning, part ofthis intellectual attraction
part is seeing that someone elsewill persevere through and
learn something, and that's veryattractive.
That is very attractive.
It just it just is.
And so it doesn't always haveto be, like we said before.
(27:37):
It doesn't have to be a courseor a master's.
It could be learning how towoodwork, it could be learning
how to garden, it could be justpicking something and seeing it
through to completion.
Because, number one, that isgoing to be the best thing you
can do for you to show yourselfyou did it.
I mean, what I am literallydoing my PhD dissertation on is
(28:00):
studying the hypothesis is doesgoal attainment, if and to what
extent?
Studying the hypothesis is, doesgoal attainment, if and to what
extent does goal attainmentinfluence personal self-esteem?
And so the hypothesis is ifsomeone completes a goal, if
they attain a goal they set outto do, will just doing that
actually increase their overallself-esteem?
(28:20):
I mean, of course, I believethe answer is going to be yes,
but it'll be.
But I mean that's importantbecause it shows that you are a
fascinating person, that you'recontinuing to grow and learn and
love to learn and learn to grow, grow to learn, learn to love
(28:41):
or love to learn all of thosethings, and all of those things
matter with the attraction.
But another question, and a lotof people have asked this.
I wanted to ask you about ittoo.
I have been in our marriage,the first to complete my
master's and then, of course,I'm in my PhD program and at
this point you're not you're notpursuing any kind of doctorate
(29:03):
degree.
Have you ever felt inferior orhas it ever actually been
unattractive to you that I havecontinued learning, if you felt
like at that time you weren't?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I've never fully felt like I wasn't trying to learn
something, yeah.
So I haven't felt that way, butI can see how someone could
that.
If your spouse is, you know.
And the same could be said forphysical fitness, physical
attraction.
There are there's times where aspouse may be overweight or
(29:42):
obese and their spouse is reallyinto fitness and the spouse
who's in the fitness actuallysays very openly I don't care, I
don't care that you'reoverweight, I don't mind, it
doesn't bother me.
But the overweight spouse stillis feeling really insecure and
actually really dislikes thatthis person's getting in such
great shape.
That can happen with theintellectual.
(30:03):
The short answer is if you'rethe one feeling insecure, go do
something about it.
And the best thing you can dois go enhance your intellectual
attraction.
Go learn stuff, get licenses,take those classes, dig into the
research, become an inquisitivemind.
That's what you can do andyou'll become less insecure or
(30:27):
more secure over time in how youfeel about your own intellect.
Don't try and drag someone downor pull someone back or hold
someone back because because ofinsecurity and if your spouse is
trying to do that to you, forgeahead anyway.
Um, I know that sounds likeyou're ignoring their feelings,
but you shouldn't try to becomedumber because they feel
(30:48):
insecure that they haven't beenworking on themselves.
You know the the best thing youcan do is just nicely hint hey,
did you read this?
Oh, you should check this bookout.
I think you may like it andthey may not ever read it.
You do that to me all the time.
I'm like yeah, I think I wouldlike that too, and then I I
don't read it, for whateverreason.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
You're not a book reader.
I've realized I need to becomea better book reader though, if
I really want you to learnsomething, I'm going to share a
YouTube video, because I'velearned that is more likely, or
an article.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Sure, it's kind of the lazy man's way out, but I
should become a reader.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I should.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
But we, even we, so yeah.
So I was rereading the commentand and this woman said how do
you go about hitting theintellectual attraction goal
with a spouse that has said theyfeel inferior?
Affirmations and beinginterested in their interests
and hobbies have been a priorityfor me, but not the other way
around.
I don't want to stop growing,but if they already feel left
behind, it's hard to fight theguilt or concern that they'll
(31:50):
turn elsewhere.
What are some good ways toinclude or grow together, turn
elsewhere.
What are some good ways toinclude or grow together?
And it's what we've alreadysaid, it's you know.
You may have to just really takea couple of steps back and ask
yourself well, what is it thatthey enjoy?
And start there.
And I think this is another bigpart too.
Don't treat them inferior.
(32:11):
So don't just go to them andsay, well, I learned today, or I
was reading.
Why don't you read more?
Or why don't you consider goingand getting a certification in
that?
And a lot of times we don'trealize that we're putting in
these little jabs and I'm notsaying that this woman is, but a
lot of times we just don'trealize that the way we're
(32:33):
saying things or how it comesacross is actually making our
spouse feel worse and dissuadingthem from wanting to actually
work on it.
I mean, there's been a coupleof times with you and I and I
think this happened recently too, like in the past week, and I
don't remember what it was but Isaid something and I'm like you
need to do this, you need to dothis, and you're like, if you
(33:03):
keep saying it, I'm not evengoing to do it because I don't
even want to do it.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Now that you keep pushing it, I don't know, I
didn't feel like I was pushingit.
I was just excited about it oreager it was watching a video
that I or no listening to apodcast.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
You did with someone, but eventually I did listen to
it.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
That was a while ago yeah, the Gottman podcast, which
was a great podcast All of youand lure them in on a date night
like, hey, we're going to playpickleball I don't know what
that is, but I saw a flyer forit in the local gym and now I
keep thinking pickleball, we'regoing to play pickleball, and
and I'm trying to be open-mindedhere, but I have zero interest
in learning this but let's justsay you go together and you both
(33:50):
love it, and it becomes ashared interest that you can
both learn.
You go together and you bothlove it and it becomes a shared
interest that you can both learnresearch together and hopefully
that opens the doors to otherthings.
One thing I've discovered, withus getting getting just the
foot in the door for a sharedhobby or interest that we have
even a mild shared interest inhas opened the door for other
shared hobbies and intereststhat are seemingly very
(34:13):
unrelated.
We're both very interested andwe're interested from the start
in travel.
Somehow or another, I feel likethat opened a door into health
and helpfulness.
I don't know how.
I just feel like having thatshared interest somehow sprouted
a new one.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You work on becoming intellectually attractive.
You do it first and foremostfor you.
You don't want to just it firstand foremost for you.
You don't want to just become aclone of your spouse.
You don't want to just onlylearn the things that you think
your spouse wants you to learn.
That's called control.
You want to have your own.
You can have differentinterests, but the key is that
you also have things you sharetogether, and that's the key.
(34:52):
And then planning those things.
I mean it really could be thatyou take one date night a month
and you say every date night,once a month, we're going to try
something brand new.
So each of you make a list ofthings that you might want to
try and then you just pick oneof those once a month and try it
for your date night.
It could even be as simple aswe want to try a new restaurant
(35:14):
we've never tried, or pick arecipe.
If you're saying I can't affordto eat out, then find a new
recipe that's maybe a differentcuisine that you've never done
before, and try that, becauseall of that begins to have a new
shared experience which canlead to new shared interest.
You just have to be intentionalabout it.
(35:35):
And even to the person whoasked the question, which we'll
just talk about real quick howdo you have time, like how do
you find time in your scheduleto learn new things or try new
things?
I would say you probably havemore time than you think,
especially if you considercommutes.
So take that time to listen toa podcast or listen to an audio
book.
Take the weekends and just setaside an hour or maybe even 20
(35:59):
or 30 minutes to read.
I mean, you can find some timeinstead of, you know, going to
lunch with someone, maybe you goto a pottery class, like.
You can find ways and times totry new things and to fit it
into your schedule.
When you decide to becomeintentional about it, what would
you add before we wrap up?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I wouldn't add much except to just kind of piggyback
off what you've said.
That's all true that we havehidden pockets of time
throughout the day.
If you have a lunch break atwork, you can eat while
listening to or watching apodcast.
You can eat while listening toor watching a podcast, whether
that's on YouTube or justlistening.
You could discuss with acoworker something you know they
(36:42):
know more than you about thatyou're interested in.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
You could spend that time eating, and if you're at
your desk or computer, you knowbrowsing articles on given
topics you want to learn moreabout.
Yeah, you could, um, evensomething simple, like I love
maps and geography learning moreabout geography.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
We did that too.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, Just just open up a map and just look at it.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah, board games puzzles, those are all ways that
you can, and I hadn't eventhought about that.
But what you said about have aconversation with someone,
that's another great way tolearn.
It doesn't have to be a podcastor a book.
You can have lunch with someoneor go on a walk with someone,
or whatever who is really greatat painting or knows a language
(37:33):
that you wish you knew, likethat person.
Just having conversations withthem about what they know is a
way to continue growing yourintellectual attraction.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
And you can do that with your spouse too, asking
them tell me more about yourwork, tell me more about what
you do, tell me more about your,your hobbies and why you love
it so much.
That's a great way to stayconnected.
So the key takeaways for thisepisode are as follows.
Number one you work on yourintellectual attraction for you.
Take something you'reinterested in, a hobby that you
(38:03):
wanna try.
Maybe even think back tosomething you liked to do as a
kid.
Try doing it again now.
The second thing is connect withyour spouse on something that
you can share an interest in.
If you don't have a sharedinterest yet, then lean into
something they may be interestedin, that you know they're
interested in, and have that bea way to start until enough
(38:24):
ground is laid, so to say thatyou can start just saying, hey,
why don't we try going to thisnew restaurant?
Or try hiking together orpickleball or whatever, and just
start trying to find a newshared interest and shared
experience.
And then the third key is, onceyou've found that, continue to
keep that important in yourmarriage.
(38:45):
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
It was fun.
I always love doing this withyou.
See you next time.
On today's podcast, we are going to be talking about
intellectual attraction.
I get a lot of questions aboutintellectual attraction all the
way from what does it even meanto well, how do I go about being
more intellectually attractedand attractive to the people in
my life?
Today, I have a special guestwith me to talk about this topic
(00:21):
.
The special guest is my husband, Rob Holmes.
Thank you, You're welcome.
Are you saying thank you for mecalling you my special guest?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Just thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Oh, you're welcome.
You're very special to me andin my life.
So, as a recap to anyone whomay not be familiar or is just
joining the podcast, thispodcast is all about helping
people become the mostattractive they can be, and
there's actually four areas ofattraction.
We call it the PIS.
That stands for physical,intellectual, emotional and
spiritual attraction.
(00:55):
And so physical attraction, aswe know, doesn't just have to do
with how we look.
It also has to do with how wefeel.
Intellectual attraction, if youwere to boil it down to a
question, would be this Am I afascinating person to talk to?
And in thinking about yourrelationship with someone else,
the question you may ask is isthis someone that I enjoy having
(01:19):
a conversation with?
Do we have shared interests,shared hobbies, but also enough
diversity within us that we arecontinuing to learn from and
with each other?
So intellectual attraction isreally that part of the
relationship that you begin tohave those shared commonalities
and do life together.
And then, of course, the E goesinto emotional attraction.
(01:41):
Does this person evoke emotionswithin me that I enjoy feeling,
and also, am I evoking emotionswithin them that they enjoy
feeling?
And then spiritual attractionis all about living consistent
beliefs and values and having aspouse or significant other that
shares the core beliefs andvalues that you have as well.
That would be a great episodefor Rob and I to do about
(02:02):
spiritual attraction later, buttoday we're talking about
intellectual attraction.
So I had Rob on a previousepisode of the it Starts With
Attraction podcast and it wasabout a year ago and it was the
episode that we coveredintroverts versus extroverts,
and so before we get into thetopic of today on intellectual
attraction, rob would like tomake a correction.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Just a quick correction.
In that podcast I stated thatextroverts get a greater
dopamine hit from socializationand social interaction than
introverts.
It turns out that when you diginto the literature I am wrong.
That is just.
It's an easy correction becauseit's just 180 degree turn.
It's just the opposite.
Introverts will actually get agreater dopamine spike and
(02:49):
greater satiation If you were tocompare it to hunger from
social interaction.
That's why introverts are oftenjust kind of by themselves,
because they feel full sociallyand they don't really feel like
they need more socialinteraction at that time.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
So there you have it, folks.
We now have on record myhusband saying I am wrong.
So I just want the producers totake that clip for me to use to
my own advantage at some pointin the future.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, Okay, but if anything, that means that
introverts actually love peoplemore than extroverts.
So you know that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
That's interesting.
So if you are interested toknow more about what we talked
about in that episode, be sureto go and listen to that.
There may also be a link to itin the show notes.
Listen to Rob and I talk aboutintroverts versus extroverts and
it's interesting becauseactually we'll get more into
this later, but Rob and I werelistening to a podcast Growing
Our Intellectual AttractionTogether, where it was about
(03:55):
social interactions and theytalked about introverts
extroverts, and that's where welearned about that dopamine
spike in a way, it's a greatpodcast, but, rob, the first
question I want to ask you as westart talking about
intellectual attraction is whatfirst intellectually attracted
you to me?
(04:17):
And I don't know the answer tothis.
This is the first time I'veasked him.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Intellectually you were driven and I knew you were
getting good grades.
And in undergrad I had goofedoff and I got.
I think my undergraduate GPAwas 2.96 when.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I finally graduated.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
So you have to round that up to even apply to grad
school and you were getting likea 3.8 or 9.
So I was impressed with thatand I like that, I was attracted
to that.
I was like, well, obviouslyshe's intellectually capable of
good grades.
I would argue, I am too, butyou know.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You just didn't apply yourself At all so.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Your grade point average was definitely not a
reflection of your smartness.
Good, that's good, I can saythat.
So we started dating in college.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
for those of you who didn't put that together?
I was.
You were in college.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
I had graduated?
Yeah, so, but we started dating.
Was it at the end of mysophomore year?
Yeah, it was the.
No, it was the first semesterof my, or the, the winter
semester of my sophomore year.
The second semester of mysophomore year because we got
married right after my firstsemester of my junior year,
which is crazy.
So you were intellectuallyattracted to me because I made
(05:31):
good grades.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
You made good grades.
It was clear that you wereintellectually driven.
It wasn't just that you gotgood grades.
A lot of people can get goodgrades, and it's not that
they're stupid, because ifyou're in college getting good
grades, you're probably smartit's just that they're not
intellectually hungry for morethan you are.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Mm-hmm, I would say what intellectually attracted me
to you.
It was very attractive that youwere starting flight school,
because that takes a level ofcommitment and you know smarts
to be able to learn all of that,apply it and do something with
(06:13):
it.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I did study more in a year and a half of flight
school than four years ofcollege.
Yes, by far.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, To like the 10th magnitude probably.
I studied way more so yeah.
I can see that.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
And I remember helping you study.
I was thinking about this lastnight.
It was your fives and nines butI think there is something that
is attractive about watchingsomeone.
It's kind of what you saidabout me, about watching someone
like be hungry for knowledgeand learn and then apply that
knowledge and you're able to seean outcome of it in some way
(06:50):
right Like.
I think that's one of those.
Basis is about.
Intellectual attraction isyou're seeing someone learn and
grow.
They're not just stayingstagnant.
That's good.
So let's talk about now.
I mean over the years.
So we've been married 11 yearsnow.
We've changed right, you're nolonger a pilot, you left flight
(07:13):
school and so that thing thatmaybe initially attracted me to
you intellectually isn'tnecessarily still a part of your
life, but I'm stillintellectually attracted to you
for different reasons whichwe'll get into.
But what would you say that youhave done over the past 11
years to continue to work onyour own intellectual attraction
(07:36):
?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Video games?
No, I did.
As you know, I pursued highereducation.
I got my MBA just because itwas online.
But, you know, after I stoppedbeing a police officer, I was
like, well, I have to dosomething.
So I immediately enrolled.
I think it was a day after Iquit PD I enrolled in an MBA
(07:59):
program.
Uh, it is online.
But you know, I learned a lot.
I got my MBA 3.8 GPA.
So I was actually trying thattime.
And besides that, I, if you knowthings, you can do things that
people who don't know you knowthink about it this way how does
(08:31):
, how does a lawyer make so muchmoney?
Well, it's, it's what they know.
Um, they know the law, and ifthey know the law better than
anyone else and how to apply itbetter than anyone else, they're
better and they'll make moremoney, mm-hmm.
Uh, the same could go for adoctor or any other specialist.
So, you know, trying to learnmore, because I see it as a
(08:52):
means of just a better life, notfor money necessarily, although
it can be valuable for that,but you can have a richer life
if you know things, if I know.
Okay, if I'm feeling kind ofpoopy in the evening and my mood
is just meh.
If I know that I take somemagnesium and some other
(09:13):
supplements that'll kind of liftmy mood a little bit, or if I
know that spending time withfamily and putting down the
electronics and the screens inthe evening will long-term cause
me to have a higher degree ofhappiness, more oxytocin and
things like that which will helpbalance out my brain chemicals,
well then I'm having a richerlife and it doesn't take a
(09:36):
single penny to learn that.
And you just got to get onGoogle.
And then, because of the MBA, Ilearned how to dig deeper with
research that has opened updoors to things completely
unrelated to business.
It's allowed me to use themagic Google or whatever search
(09:57):
engine Google is the best,unfortunately, but it is what it
is and type in researchquestions and find scholarly,
peer reviewed sources, so thatI'm not reading like a business
insider article on somebody'sopinion or interpolation of the
actual research data, but to getto the data itself.
And even though I struggle tooften understand it if it's in
(10:21):
lingo, that is like if it'smedical, I'm not a medical or
science person, so yeah, youknow, but that's also what
google is for.
What does that word mean?
What does autophagy mean.
Well, what does muscle proteinsynthesis mean?
And you know, you can look itup and I guess that's kind of
what I've done and I alreadykind of know what you've done,
but I want to answer for youwhat have I done?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
answer for I won't answer for you.
What have I?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
done?
Answer for me You're working onyour PhD you have.
So, after after we got married,Kimberly did leave
undergraduate studies atLipscomb university in order to
move all the way around theworld to the Republic of Korea
with me.
But she definitely didn't stopcollege.
She enrolled online, completedher undergrad, immediately
(11:07):
enrolled in a graduate program.
Um, and she's kind of beengoing, she.
She started with marriage andfamily therapy, went with
psychology instead, got amaster's in psychology.
Now you work on your PhD inperformance psychology.
Yay, so fun.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
So fun.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
So fun and.
But I know you are thirsty forknowledge, you're working a lot,
so that kind of impedes, youknow, if I'm throughout the day
because I do home flipping andI'm not in a season where I'm
working on a project right now,I just got out of some
litigation and things like that,that kind of tied things up so
throughout the day I just havetime to research whatever I feel
(11:51):
like researching.
I just, just, you know, aquestion pops to mind and I can
just dig into that and I canspend an hour or two hours just
researching a given topic, justjust because you don't have that
luxury.
But I know you are thirsty forknowledge and you do have to do
a lot of research because ofyour PhD program.
(12:11):
It just has to be focused, notnecessarily everything you want
it to be.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, that's true, and you and I I mean not
everyone is going to have theformal education or want the
formal education like you and Ihave, and you don't need to.
That's not part of what youhave to have in order to have to
be intellectually attractive toother people.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
That's just what you and I have done.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
I made it sound like you have to go get your master's
in something you don't know,you don't really don't, but
there are other ways.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
So one of the things that I say to people when I'm
asked this question on podcastsanother thing that we know about
our brains and as socialcreatures is that we also form
deeper bonds with people that welove when we share new
experiences with them,experiences with them.
(13:06):
So that's part of intellectualattraction, because it gives you
a shared experience, a sharedinterest, things that you can
talk about other than just.
You know, when you're married,you tend to get into the rut of
talking about just kids orfinances or the quote unquote
business side of marriage, whichthat's what drains the life out
of it.
You don't want to come home andjust talk about the problems
and the kids and so on and soforth.
You want to talk about the funthings and so some other
(13:28):
non-educational or non-formaleducational ways that we have
worked on, or I know at least.
I mean I will say we is.
We love new experiences.
So traveling is part of that,whether internationally or even
just domestically, or even justthings like exploring a new.
I love hiking, so exploring anew hiking trail, exploring some
(13:51):
new parks, even having a eating, a different type of cuisine,
or going to a new type ofrestaurant you've never been to,
and sharing that experiencewith your spouse helps you to
become more intellectuallyattracted to each other, and a
lot of people don't realize justthose small things help you
(14:12):
have more fun and sharedexperiences, even going to a
local museum I was thinkingabout the times that we've gone
to we live here in Nashville, sothe Frist Center and even in
especially, I think, especiallywhen they have the crazy
exhibits that are just like thisis art.
Rob doesn't love them so much,but you can think back to them
(14:35):
and we laugh about it, likeremember the guy that had made
like the Cousin it's and it waslike a bunch of shoes when the
janitor mistakes it for garbageand picks it up in the middle of
the night, I think we'vecrossed the barrier out of art.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Or when someone drops a McDonald's wrapper on the
floor in an art exhibit and thena bunch of people huddle around
it because they think it's artbut it's not.
Again, I think we've startedcrossing lines that men were
never meant to cross.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, but that that leads to it and other ways that
you can work on or that you'vedone, is in staying
intellectually attractive orlike working on yourself in that
way.
You watch a lot ofdocumentaries.
I don't like documentaries, I'mnot as big of a documentary
person, but you watch a lot ofdocumentaries.
I probably read more books thanyou because that's just my
(15:26):
favorite medium.
So, again, you don't have to dothe same types of things.
You don't even always have tohave the same shared interests,
but continuing to be interestedin and growing in what it is you
like to do and then finding ashared interest or a shared
commonality that you can sharewith your spouse is a great way
to do it.
Now here's a question that I'vegotten a lot, especially in
(15:48):
prepping for this podcast andasking some of the people on
Instagram to submit theirquestions about this.
Some people have said so.
What do you do if your desiresor your interest, the things you
want to learn, are so differentfrom your spouse's?
I think you and I have a lot ofthat.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
We do, but we have commonality too, and it's hard
because the things that I'mexclusively interested in, you
generally are not, and viceversa.
You can talk for an hour abouthiking and I'll just sit there,
probably because I don't.
I'll.
I'll do it, but I don't love it.
Kind of like you'll dress upfor the ren fair but you don't
(16:28):
love it don't love it, and sowe'll tolerate each other's
hobbies, because we know yeah wedon't talk about it a lot
because it'd be a one-wayconversation.
so you, you have to findsomething, something even if
it's something that neither ofyou knew you were aware you were
interested in yet.
In other words, if he'sinterested in video games and
(16:51):
you're interested in art andfashion, find something new that
neither of you has necessarilydiscovered you're interested in
yet.
Maybe health, that's somethingyou and I share a lot.
So we, a lot of ourconversations in the evening,
revolve around healthfulness,being healthy, or attraction,
(17:17):
even the human dynamics ofattraction.
Those are things, and that'snot just physical, although it
encompasses that it that it's alot of things.
So, in travel, oh, in travel,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
Even just and even the research backs this but even
just talking about places wewant to go, even if we're not
actually traveling, just makingplans and having the
anticipation of a future, youknow, travel experience, even
that is something that can bondus.
So even just looking atpictures of places and you know
(17:52):
we have that Google thing or theAmazon fire stick and it shows
those pictures when it you knowthe what do you call it?
Slideshow, you know whatscreensaver, and we'll just look
at it and say we got to figureout where that place is and so
I'll like take a picture of itwith my phone and try and search
it on Google and we'll market.
So we'll market for a futureplace that we want to do.
(18:13):
But we really do have a havevery many different interests.
Rob and I do like we had to workon, especially the first
several years of our marriage.
We had to work on finding thosecommon interests with each
other.
And also because anotherquestion that someone had was
(18:34):
that well, I just don't.
I mean it kind of goes alongwith what we just said.
But they said you know myhusband this was a woman asking
she said my husband really justloves his work and what he does.
It's kind of in the healthfield.
He is a doctor, but the kind ofdoctor he is, he's very
interested.
And she just said I have nointerest in that.
(18:57):
And I mean, what would you sayto that?
Because I do think there was atime, especially at the
beginning of our marriage, weweren't finding common ground
and I may have been the firstone to coalesce and kind of lean
in and say, okay, tell me moreabout Renaissance fairs, or tell
(19:17):
me more about, or that was likeat the beginning of our
marriage.
You were playing a lot of videogames and so I would kind of
just say, okay, like I'll tryplaying this one with you.
I did not love it but I tried.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
You did.
I think this is morecomplicated because you know
he's.
It sounds like he's an MD, um,unless she's ready to go get her
MD, whether he realizes it ornot, or she realizes it or not,
there is more that he'sinterested in than just the work
.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Finding that's going to be hard.
Right, it's the finding thatit's finding it, finding it's
hard and you have to explore alot of boring things that you're
really not interested in.
You have to be open-minded.
I haven't climbed like rockclimbed in years, but I know you
love it.
I haven't climbed like rockclimbed in years, but I know you
(20:10):
love it.
What if I get back into it andI'm like, actually I think I do
like this again?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Oh my gosh, that would be so great.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
You know, when I'm not so fat and it's not so hard
because my belly doesn't like upagainst the wall.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
What a visual.
What a visual for our listeners.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Just imagine me like up against the wall, my belly's
like so yeah, you have to findit, and that's that's where it's
hard.
And it may not be hobby related.
He, he may not have hobbies oryou know actively, yeah, but but
then you know, you may.
You may say, hey, I, I booked aweekend trip to lake such and
(20:48):
such.
Um, I'd love it if we couldjust kind of go kayaking
together.
And maybe, you know, maybe he'snever tried that and from that
point forward he's like I lovekayaking, let's do more kayaking
trips yeah just an example.
He's probably tried kayaking umyeah and it's gonna be hard,
especially because there aresome personality types out there
who poo poo everything like oh,I don't like that because and
(21:08):
it's like, work with me, right,and that that was a great thing
that helped me be intellectuallyattracted to you, and I hope
vice versa is that we arewilling to try new things, even
when we're like I predict I'mnot going to love this.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yeah, we going to love this.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Yeah, we saw.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Sing 2.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
We did, and I thought , man, I'm not going to like it.
It was great.
It was better than the firstone, it was phenomenal.
It was such a good movie andI'm very glad that I didn't just
shut it down.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
There's been a lot of .
I can't think of more examples,but there's been a lot of
things like that Indian food.
I really thought I was going tohate Indian food, and from bite
number one.
I did let's just say I'mlooking forward to lunch today.
Uh, it's made by an Indian lady, or a neighborhood who cooks
for us.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Shout out to my heck.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
We love it.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And uh, yeah, so it's one of those things you got to
find it, yeah, and it's hard.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
And it is hard, and you know, because I know my
audience and I know half thesepeople are probably in a
situation where maybe they'reseparated or their, their
relationship is just in thatunsteady ground.
And we'll get to this topicnext.
You might be saying, well, youknow, my, my husband or my wife
just won't even, they won't evenlike if I brought that up.
Let's go on a weekend trip.
(22:22):
They're uninterested at thispoint.
Well then, it may be up to youright now to, number one, work
on your own intellectualattraction.
So keep learning, keep addingnew hobbies, trying new things,
just for your own good.
But then, secondly, try andlean in just a little bit to
something you know they'reinterested in.
So even to one of the ladies onInstagram who said I just have
(22:46):
no interest, I get that, but canyou bite the bullet for just a
period of time to learn a littlemore so that you can at least,
when he wants to talk about it,know enough about it that you
can carry on a conversation?
So thankfully, Rob doesn't lovepolitics as much as he used to,
but when he did love politicswhich I literally have no
(23:07):
interest in I would at least tryand keep up on some things, so
that at the end of the day, whenRob was saying I read this or I
read that and this is happening, I would have a bit of an
understanding or I would atleast lean into asking him more
questions about it.
So I would ask things like well, why is that happening?
(23:30):
What is the history in that?
And that's something I still dotoday.
I think just last night I wasasking you a question I don't
even remember what it was now,but it was something was on the
Big Bang Theory and I was likewell, tell is, tell me the
history of that.
Like, why is that a deal?
What is what is the thing aboutthat?
(23:51):
And that's something that Robloves when I ask him, because
he's able to share his knowledgewith me.
He's able to share If.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
I know.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And sometimes he doesn't know and that's fine too
.
Then you just make stuff up andact like you know.
I always know when he's makingthings up because his answer is
ridiculous.
But even humor, like that'sanother thing intellectually
attractive about you and youcould even say that goes some
into emotional attraction.
But you're a very witty person,like you're a very funny.
(24:23):
The way you think was veryattractive to me because you are
funny, funny looking.
No, funny, funny.
Like he wants to write a book,and he should.
He should have a series ofchildren's books, and there's
one that he has this idea ofabout the avocados.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Two avocados trying to escape a vegan restaurant in
Austin, Texas, where they'rebanding together to try and save
their own lives from the veganswho want to consume them.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I don't know if I should kill one of the
characters off at the end or not.
It's eaten by a vegan One ofthe avocados It'll be a
children's book, so maybe not,mommy, I'm only going to eat
meat from now on, so this I'monly going to eat meat from now
on.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So this is not.
We're not promoting veganism orcarnivorism.
No, don't send your hate mail.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
We just find it a funny, funny topic.
But yeah, no, and, and one ofthe things to say to anyone who
has, let's say, you're separatedor borderline separated, or
you're in that phase of marriagethat is so on the rocks, it
doesn't matter what you say,your spouse hates everything
(25:32):
that comes out of your mouth,that I'm going to look at you
and, man, that's a rough spot tobe in.
Uh, I'm only ever in that spotbefore 6 00 am, but, but if
you're in that spot before 6 am,but, but if you're in that spot
, um, you have to, veryseriously, you have to work on
(25:52):
yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You know that spouse and maybe they've over time been
very disparaging towards you ortold you that you're not smart
and you're really concernedbecause you you may feel stupid.
I'm here to tell you you're notstupid, that's good.
Do something for you, not asrevenge against them, but
something that they'll see andbe like oh huh, get that real
(26:16):
estate license.
Maybe he'll be like oh, Ididn't think she was capable of
that.
Well, now that she has a realestate license, she could get a
job.
If I left her she wouldn't behelpless.
So maybe I should you know,maybe mind myself a little bit
better Get that life insuranceproducer license.
Go attend that course at acommunity college to learn
(26:38):
something, whatever that may be,whether you're passionate about
it or not.
I can't tell you the amount oftimes I was sitting there
writing papers in my MBA programand I know for a fact you feel
the same way even though you'reinterested in psychology.
You feel that way about your PhDprogram.
You're sitting there writingthe paper and you're like I
(26:58):
would rather have my teethpulled out with a plier right
now At least it wouldn't beboring out with a plier, right
now, at least it wouldn't beboring.
So you know, kind of forceyourself to learn certain things
that you think are important tolearn.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
But you know, another part, going back to what we
said at the beginning, part ofthis intellectual attraction
part is seeing that someone elsewill persevere through and
learn something, and that's veryattractive.
That is very attractive.
It just it just is.
And so it doesn't always haveto be, like we said before.
(27:37):
It doesn't have to be a courseor a master's.
It could be learning how towoodwork, it could be learning
how to garden, it could be justpicking something and seeing it
through to completion.
Because, number one, that isgoing to be the best thing you
can do for you to show yourselfyou did it.
I mean, what I am literallydoing my PhD dissertation on is
(28:00):
studying the hypothesis is doesgoal attainment, if and to what
extent?
Studying the hypothesis is, doesgoal attainment, if and to what
extent does goal attainmentinfluence personal self-esteem?
And so the hypothesis is ifsomeone completes a goal, if
they attain a goal they set outto do, will just doing that
actually increase their overallself-esteem?
(28:20):
I mean, of course, I believethe answer is going to be yes,
but it'll be.
But I mean that's importantbecause it shows that you are a
fascinating person, that you'recontinuing to grow and learn and
love to learn and learn to grow, grow to learn, learn to love
(28:41):
or love to learn all of thosethings, and all of those things
matter with the attraction.
But another question, and a lotof people have asked this.
I wanted to ask you about ittoo.
I have been in our marriage,the first to complete my
master's and then, of course,I'm in my PhD program and at
this point you're not you're notpursuing any kind of doctorate
(29:03):
degree.
Have you ever felt inferior orhas it ever actually been
unattractive to you that I havecontinued learning, if you felt
like at that time you weren't?
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I've never fully felt like I wasn't trying to learn
something, yeah.
So I haven't felt that way, butI can see how someone could
that.
If your spouse is, you know.
And the same could be said forphysical fitness, physical
attraction.
There are there's times where aspouse may be overweight or
(29:42):
obese and their spouse is reallyinto fitness and the spouse
who's in the fitness actuallysays very openly I don't care, I
don't care that you'reoverweight, I don't mind, it
doesn't bother me.
But the overweight spouse stillis feeling really insecure and
actually really dislikes thatthis person's getting in such
great shape.
That can happen with theintellectual.
(30:03):
The short answer is if you'rethe one feeling insecure, go do
something about it.
And the best thing you can dois go enhance your intellectual
attraction.
Go learn stuff, get licenses,take those classes, dig into the
research, become an inquisitivemind.
That's what you can do andyou'll become less insecure or
(30:27):
more secure over time in how youfeel about your own intellect.
Don't try and drag someone downor pull someone back or hold
someone back because because ofinsecurity and if your spouse is
trying to do that to you, forgeahead anyway.
Um, I know that sounds likeyou're ignoring their feelings,
but you shouldn't try to becomedumber because they feel
(30:48):
insecure that they haven't beenworking on themselves.
You know the the best thing youcan do is just nicely hint hey,
did you read this?
Oh, you should check this bookout.
I think you may like it andthey may not ever read it.
You do that to me all the time.
I'm like yeah, I think I wouldlike that too, and then I I
don't read it, for whateverreason.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
You're not a book reader.
I've realized I need to becomea better book reader though, if
I really want you to learnsomething, I'm going to share a
YouTube video, because I'velearned that is more likely, or
an article.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Sure, it's kind of the lazy man's way out, but I
should become a reader.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I should.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
But we, even we, so yeah.
So I was rereading the commentand and this woman said how do
you go about hitting theintellectual attraction goal
with a spouse that has said theyfeel inferior?
Affirmations and beinginterested in their interests
and hobbies have been a priorityfor me, but not the other way
around.
I don't want to stop growing,but if they already feel left
behind, it's hard to fight theguilt or concern that they'll
(31:50):
turn elsewhere.
What are some good ways toinclude or grow together, turn
elsewhere.
What are some good ways toinclude or grow together?
And it's what we've alreadysaid, it's you know.
You may have to just really takea couple of steps back and ask
yourself well, what is it thatthey enjoy?
And start there.
And I think this is another bigpart too.
Don't treat them inferior.
(32:11):
So don't just go to them andsay, well, I learned today, or I
was reading.
Why don't you read more?
Or why don't you consider goingand getting a certification in
that?
And a lot of times we don'trealize that we're putting in
these little jabs and I'm notsaying that this woman is, but a
lot of times we just don'trealize that the way we're
(32:33):
saying things or how it comesacross is actually making our
spouse feel worse and dissuadingthem from wanting to actually
work on it.
I mean, there's been a coupleof times with you and I and I
think this happened recently too, like in the past week, and I
don't remember what it was but Isaid something and I'm like you
need to do this, you need to dothis, and you're like, if you
(33:03):
keep saying it, I'm not evengoing to do it because I don't
even want to do it.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Now that you keep pushing it, I don't know, I
didn't feel like I was pushingit.
I was just excited about it oreager it was watching a video
that I or no listening to apodcast.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
You did with someone, but eventually I did listen to
it.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
That was a while ago yeah, the Gottman podcast, which
was a great podcast All of youand lure them in on a date night
like, hey, we're going to playpickleball I don't know what
that is, but I saw a flyer forit in the local gym and now I
keep thinking pickleball, we'regoing to play pickleball, and
and I'm trying to be open-mindedhere, but I have zero interest
in learning this but let's justsay you go together and you both
(33:50):
love it, and it becomes ashared interest that you can
both learn.
You go together and you bothlove it and it becomes a shared
interest that you can both learnresearch together and hopefully
that opens the doors to otherthings.
One thing I've discovered, withus getting getting just the
foot in the door for a sharedhobby or interest that we have
even a mild shared interest inhas opened the door for other
shared hobbies and intereststhat are seemingly very
(34:13):
unrelated.
We're both very interested andwe're interested from the start
in travel.
Somehow or another, I feel likethat opened a door into health
and helpfulness.
I don't know how.
I just feel like having thatshared interest somehow sprouted
a new one.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
You work on becoming intellectually attractive.
You do it first and foremostfor you.
You don't want to just it firstand foremost for you.
You don't want to just become aclone of your spouse.
You don't want to just onlylearn the things that you think
your spouse wants you to learn.
That's called control.
You want to have your own.
You can have differentinterests, but the key is that
you also have things you sharetogether, and that's the key.
(34:52):
And then planning those things.
I mean it really could be thatyou take one date night a month
and you say every date night,once a month, we're going to try
something brand new.
So each of you make a list ofthings that you might want to
try and then you just pick oneof those once a month and try it
for your date night.
It could even be as simple aswe want to try a new restaurant
(35:14):
we've never tried, or pick arecipe.
If you're saying I can't affordto eat out, then find a new
recipe that's maybe a differentcuisine that you've never done
before, and try that, becauseall of that begins to have a new
shared experience which canlead to new shared interest.
You just have to be intentionalabout it.
(35:35):
And even to the person whoasked the question, which we'll
just talk about real quick howdo you have time, like how do
you find time in your scheduleto learn new things or try new
things?
I would say you probably havemore time than you think,
especially if you considercommutes.
So take that time to listen toa podcast or listen to an audio
book.
Take the weekends and just setaside an hour or maybe even 20
(35:59):
or 30 minutes to read.
I mean, you can find some timeinstead of, you know, going to
lunch with someone, maybe you goto a pottery class, like.
You can find ways and times totry new things and to fit it
into your schedule.
When you decide to becomeintentional about it, what would
you add before we wrap up?
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I wouldn't add much except to just kind of piggyback
off what you've said.
That's all true that we havehidden pockets of time
throughout the day.
If you have a lunch break atwork, you can eat while
listening to or watching apodcast.
You can eat while listening toor watching a podcast, whether
that's on YouTube or justlistening.
You could discuss with acoworker something you know they
(36:42):
know more than you about thatyou're interested in.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
You could spend that time eating, and if you're at
your desk or computer, you knowbrowsing articles on given
topics you want to learn moreabout.
Yeah, you could, um, evensomething simple, like I love
maps and geography learning moreabout geography.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
We did that too.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Yeah, Just just open up a map and just look at it.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Yeah, board games puzzles, those are all ways that
you can, and I hadn't eventhought about that.
But what you said about have aconversation with someone,
that's another great way tolearn.
It doesn't have to be a podcastor a book.
You can have lunch with someoneor go on a walk with someone,
or whatever who is really greatat painting or knows a language
(37:33):
that you wish you knew, likethat person.
Just having conversations withthem about what they know is a
way to continue growing yourintellectual attraction.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
And you can do that with your spouse too, asking
them tell me more about yourwork, tell me more about what
you do, tell me more about your,your hobbies and why you love
it so much.
That's a great way to stayconnected.
So the key takeaways for thisepisode are as follows.
Number one you work on yourintellectual attraction for you.
Take something you'reinterested in, a hobby that you
(38:03):
wanna try.
Maybe even think back tosomething you liked to do as a
kid.
Try doing it again now.
The second thing is connect withyour spouse on something that
you can share an interest in.
If you don't have a sharedinterest yet, then lean into
something they may be interestedin, that you know they're
interested in, and have that bea way to start until enough
(38:24):
ground is laid, so to say thatyou can start just saying, hey,
why don't we try going to thisnew restaurant?
Or try hiking together orpickleball or whatever, and just
start trying to find a newshared interest and shared
experience.
And then the third key is, onceyou've found that, continue to
keep that important in yourmarriage.
(38:45):
Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
It was fun.
I always love doing this withyou.
See you next time.
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