Mastering the Art of Communication with Jefferson Fisher

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Ever wondered how to turn a heated argument into a productive discussion? This episode promises to decode the art of communication with our special guest, Jefferson Fisher, a lawyer, acclaimed for his practical advice on effective communication. From his journey transitioning from law to social media, we uncover the power of dialogue, insightful phrases, and strategies to navigate conversations with not just colleagues, but also children and spouses. 

Dive into the world of conflict management, guided by the experiences of our guest, raised amidst a family of attorneys. Discover how a calm demeanor and a lower voice can de-escalate tense situations. The emphasis here is on how communication positively impacts relationships and conflict resolution. As we shift gears, we plunge into the realms of AI, the responsibility of voicing opinions in the social media space, and the art of parenting with effective communication principles. 

Each chapter of this conversation is a treasure trove of communication wisdom, from understanding others' perspectives to setting clear goals and boundaries. The episode culminates with three key takeaways for having productive arguments and conversations, and Jefferson Fisher's enlightening inputs on these strategies. This episode isn't just a podcast, it's a masterclass in communication. So, lend us your ears, take notes, and transform your conversations. Remember to share this episode and leave a review to help us grow. Let's dive in!

Today's Guest: Jefferson Fisher

Jefferson's mission is to revolutionize the legal landscape by creating a transparent and technologically advanced law firm that prioritizes client advocacy. With an unwavering commitment to client-centered approaches, he emphasizes the value of teaching clients to argue less and communicate more effectively.

Today, we'll explore Jefferson's insights on teaching clients to engage in productive conversations, especially with loved ones. We'll also delve into the profound impact of finding one's purpose, drawing from Jefferson's own journey. Join us as we uncover the secrets to better communication, personal growth, and purpose-driven living.

Website: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/

Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships

Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 200,000 people a mont

Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships


Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.

🔗 Website: https://itstartswithattraction.com
📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes
👀 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kimberlybeamholmes

Follow our other channels!
📺 https://youtube.com/@UC7gCCAhhQvD3MBpKpI_4g6w
📺
then you actually get to talkto them in real life and realize
that they are super genuine andshow up to be exactly who they
are online, and that is whathappened in my conversation.
Today.
I'm interviewing JeffersonFisher.
He is actually a lawyer, butyou may have seen him on

(00:22):
Instagram or TikTok because hedoes a ton of videos about how
to have healthy communication.
He's on Instagram, as atJefferson Fisher, and today
we're talking about alldifferent things.
Communication we're talkingabout how do you start into an
argument when you're angry inorder to have the best possible

(00:42):
outcome, and he talks about somedifferent ways to frame that.
We talk about some magicphrases that we can use in order
to actually have the bestpossibility of getting what we
want in a conversation.
We talk about those things andso many other things.
I even do a lightning roundwith him at the end, because
there were so many otherquestions I wanted to ask him,
but we didn't have the time toreally dive in specifically to

(01:04):
those.
We talk about how to talk withchildren, how to talk with your
spouse, how to negotiate.
Again, it's a full packedepisode, so let's not delay any
longer.
Let's dive in to today'sepisode with Jefferson Fisher.
Jefferson, I'm super excited tohave you on today.
Thanks for joining.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Kimberly.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, yeah, I originally found you on
Instagram.
We were talking you weretalking a little bit about
Instagram before this and youwere kind of a breath of fresh
air because it's like it's alawyer, but he's relatable and
who makes sense when he talks.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I appreciate that the bar, unfortunately, is set
pretty low for lawyers.
So wait, this guy smiles.
What's that about?
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:48):
And I don't have to pay him $450 an hour to listen
to his reels.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
You mean I can listen to him for a full minute and he
won't charge me?

Speaker 1 (01:57):
He won't charge me for 15 minutes, it is totally
for free, I agree.
No, that's awesome.
So what like originally?
How did you?
What kind of law do youpractice outside?

Speaker 2 (02:09):
of.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Instagram.
And then how did you get intosocial media and all of that?

Speaker 2 (02:14):
So I am a personal injury attorney, so I help
people.
When they get hurt like in thename, any kind of accident, I'm
helping them.
So I'm helping people that arereally, a lot of the times, at
their lowest point because aninjury throws off their entire
life.
They may not be able to earn aliving, take the kids to school.
There's a whole dynamic thatgets messed up in an accident.

(02:37):
So that's what I do.
I started my own firm about ayear and a half ago after being
at a defense firm for a longtime, and we now have about 25
people at my firm, which isawesome.
And but when I was by myself, Ithought, well, I need to do
social media for the law firmand I started to do little posts

(02:58):
that I was seeing otherattorneys about, like what to do
in a car accident.
I needed to get more people tofollow to know about my law firm
, and then I can just had this.
Several events led to me havingthis watershed moment of who
cares, like nobody know what.
Do you want them to just followyour firm?
What's your purpose?
What are you doing here on theplanet?

(03:19):
You're trying to help people.
Do I have to talk about my lawfirm to help people.
No, so I just started to sharewhat I like to talk about and
I'm a nerd about something I'dlike to do, and it's talking
about communication.
So I didn't have an office atthe time I was trying to get one
.
So the only place I had was mycar.
That was it, and so I didn't.

(03:41):
I was looking for like the bestlighting, the best camera, the
best all this.
And so I just said forget theexcuses, I'm just going to use
my phone.
And I still use my phone, Istill use the car, even though I
have two offices andeverything's great.
But yeah, the cars, cars wereit's at.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
That's pretty awesome .
Has the social media helpedyour law firm or has it opened
up new doors for you in otherways or both?

Speaker 2 (04:04):
Both Kimberly.
Yeah, my goodness it's.
It's been amazing.
Not only has it helped the lawfirm, I'll get calls daily from
people all over the world UnitedStates, you name it ask me to
help on their case, which Ioften do, and or they just call
it to say it's something verynice, they just want to talk to

(04:25):
me.
So that's really neat.
The other side is, I mean I'vebeen able to have a book deal
now with Ping O'Rana house toit's about communication.
Who would ever thought that aguy talking to himself alone,
recording himself in the car youknow they don't know that I'm
making these sometimes they'relike in a gas station or like in

(04:47):
front of a dollar general youknow what I mean Like they don't
know where you're at and it'sturned into the book deal, a
speaking.
I get asked to speak a lot so Iget hired by companies to talk
to them about communication,conflict management or just
social media, different thingslike that, and I've just been
able.
I went from not travelingreally at all to I think I've

(05:11):
done like 24 speakingengagements this year and I get
to travel all over the place.
It's been cool and bring thefamily when I can.
It's awesome.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's the, that's the blessing.
And the hard part aboutspeaking, at least for me, is
when my husband can go with me.
It's great because we kind ofget away.
But the kids the kids are like,where have you been?
So we try and take them when wecan.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah, it's always hard when my my daughter, who's
three, is like you don't want totake me with you.
You know like like you know whatshe's, she knows what she's
doing, and so I have to, likeyou know, baby, I told you like
I'm going to just be gone.
I got to go up there one dayand I'm coming right back.
You're gonna be able to comewith me on this trip, that trip,
and they, they understand now,kind of that.

(05:57):
They ask what I do and I justthat daddy helps people.
That's really all they care,that's all they know.
So that's that's it.
Otherwise, they know nothingabout the social media world, or
I mean, I don't, I don't putyou out there, I don't put my
wife out there, I don't like tokeep it very much private.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, so how did you get into?
I mean, you said earlier you'rea nerd about communication,
like, why communication?
Where did that passion comefrom?

Speaker 2 (06:26):
So I am a fifth generation attorney, like, don't
numbers, don't math for for usGenetically.
So I was the kid that gotpicked up from school.
Then my dad would just put mein the corner so he could finish
his deposition or go to a trialor, you know, go to a family

(06:48):
meeting and all they talkedabout was, you know, trials,
things that happen in funnycourtroom stories, and I was
just enamored with it and I grewup seeing how my dad spoke, my
dad's very diplomatic, my motheris extremely kind and their
number one prayer for me waswisdom.
You know, growing up, and Ithink that, just I believe that

(07:12):
that that prayer was answered.
I believe that they're they,they, they chose that for a
reason.
So I've always had a gift forcommunication, for reading the
room, reading people, feelingthe emotions in the room, and
that has led to many successesrelationship wise, friendship

(07:35):
wise, and how I navigaterelationships.
And so that's where that reallycame from.
And a lot of people ask me, youknow, did you write a book?
Did you take a course that theyteach you some law school?
And the answer is no to all ofthis.
Any of my videos that I giveare just straight, generally
from my head within about 10minutes before I'm talking to

(07:57):
you in the car, so it's justsomething that I like.
I like to talk about.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah, lots of questions going through my mind
of what I want to ask you next.
You have a very calmingdemeanor, by the way.
I mean we just we just met, youknow, 10 minutes, 15 minutes
ago, and I, I came on to therecording I was like super
frazzled, was a couple minuteslate and just the first few

(08:25):
words out of your mouth I waslike, oh, he's a calm presence,
he has like a very soothingvoice and felt my you know, felt
my frustration and anxietydecrease a little bit just with
that.
Is that intentional?
Like, have you intentionallylearned how to present yourself
and how to show up in a certainway in order to just deflate a

(08:47):
situation?

Speaker 2 (08:49):
The answer is that comes naturally from what I have
, what's been modeled for me.
I will absolutely say that Ihave been blessed in a way to
see models of diplomacy in myfamily and how they handle and
address conflict.
I grew up I'd get so mad.

(09:11):
I mean, I'm a teenager, I'mgetting mad at my mom.
She's trying to control me,she's trying to do this, and I'd
come to dad and dad go, so.
But dad, you don't understand,he'd go.
So you know I mean, and it was,oh man what?
Yeah, he's right, and so hiswhole thing was, you know, hey,

(09:31):
don't make that your Alamo, inother words, is that the hill
you're gonna die on really?
And he was just so good at likedeconstructing a lot of the
ways.
I would feel that and it becamevery natural to me in my
demeanor to slow down, and as anattorney especially, I very
much honed that behavior becausemy sole job is to send my

(09:55):
clients into just intenseconflict.
So I have to train them andteach them and calm them down in
very significant ways, and apart of that is what I've
learned now, now that I've likeworking backwards and I've been
thinking about it why is thatthat my lower voice or using a

(10:18):
calming voice, a slower register, which comes very natural to me
, actually makes other peoplestheir sympathetic nervous system
, like it matches their energyand the frequency to calm them
down, so they oftentimes itwould be different if I came on
and I just started yelling or Iwas really intense.

(10:40):
You're gonna also feel thatintensity.
So we tend to mirror each otherand so when I come in I'm a lot
more calming and talking aboutour day and how's your morning
gone.
Then your body's like oh, Ilike okay, I can match this
frequency, and then it kind ofjust starts to ease.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
To ease in, to ease down, that's for sure.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
Let's talk about the person who is angry, wants
justice, believes they're right,wants their way.
You probably deal with some ofthese people.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Every day.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
Every day.
What is your?
What have you seen work?
How do you get people to shifttheir mindset and shift their
behaviors so that the otherperson can actually hear what
they're trying to say?

Speaker 2 (11:28):
So let's put it in a context.
Let's say let's put it.
I assume for your readers it'smarriage, it's relationship.
Let's put it contextually theycome into the kitchen.
What's happening?

Speaker 1 (11:43):
Yeah, okay.
They come into the kitchen andlet's say they're.
Let's say it's a wife.
She's been working hard all daygetting the house clean, making
dinner and for the fifth nightin a row, her husband is not
home on time for dinner, like hesaid he was going to be.
And it's not just the fact thathe's not home, it's he doesn't
respect me, he doesn't love me.

(12:04):
This isn't right.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Right.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
And so he comes in and he doesn't see what the big
deal is, and she's upset andfeels disrespected and unloved.
And what she says to him is whyare you never home?
Why don't you wanna be with me?
You need to change Like.
We have to start spending moretime together, so on and so
forth.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
That's hard and let's make it even harder.
Let's say kids are around.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, absolutely, they're sitting at the dinner
table.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, let's make it more, let's make it even harder.
Kids are sitting at the dinnertable, they're already finishing
dinner and husband comes inlate.
So mom has a choice at thatmoment Do I dress this now or do
I dress this later?
Now that I think the first partof it is personal preference, I

(12:57):
would recommend that it is notaddressed in front of the kids.
That's just my personal belief.
I grew up in a household that ifyou wanted to have a
significant conversation, evenif it was an argument, it needs
to be done away from child'sears because they don't
understand the context.
And I don't believe that kindof behavior, should it turn ugly

(13:19):
, should be modeled in front ofkids.
If you can't have it in ahealthy way but it sounds like
under our scenario it's notgonna be, add, in a very healthy
way.
So dinner goes exactly as itshould.
You can either choose toaddress hi dad's here, let's

(13:40):
finish dinner, let's have bed,let them have a good night of
sleep, let them have a goodnight's rest.
Then you turn to address theconversation in the room.
What you don't wanna do is startoff with a why by pushing the
why question.
Yes, that's the question youwant to know.
But when you put it in terms ofa why, very much feels like a

(14:01):
challenge.
So it pushes a threat to ourbody of challenging your
autonomy, it challenges yourcompetence.
If I were to just say to you,kimberly, let's say you did
something.
I said why'd you do that?
Our immediate response isbecause I wanted to.
That's right.

(14:22):
You know how are you toquestion?

Speaker 1 (14:23):
me.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah, yeah, because that's what I wanted to do.
What's it?
Do you?
So it works the same way.
You have times where if youstart with why, it is
immediately going to put themdefensive because it is a
challenge, it is a trigger topeople.
So the first question my styleis very much a diplomatic.

(14:49):
Let's come to the root of thematter, because if you just
start complaining that they'relate, they know that they're
late.
So you complaining that they'relate does nothing in terms of
resolving the real issue.
Right, it's just you venting.
If you need to vent, tell themthat you're gonna vent.
If you need to put a framearound it, I just need to vent

(15:12):
to you for a second.
I want to talk about this later, I want to talk about it
afterwards, but I need you to bea place to just vent.
They probably aren't gonna wantto hear that Bigger issue is
gonna need to be.
Where is this coming from?
In terms of the repeatedbehavior?

(15:32):
A very much more powerful way,I think way to address this is
do I need to give up on the ideaof you coming home on time,
because if you ask it that way,they will answer in the negative
?
I was like no, no, you don'tneed to.
I can do this.
I can do this.
At the same time, you need tobe very mindful of what's

(15:55):
happening in their day, as towhy they're late, and that means
you're asking questions morealong the lines of what happened
today, how was your day?
Like finding out, because youreally don't know.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Right.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
Most of the time, if you just like typical scenario
right Kimberley's, they comehome late, kids are down Great,
so you're just gonna be.
I guess you're just never gonnabe home.
Is this what it is?
Like you said, you're gonna behome the other week.
You have no clue what happenedin his day.
Who knows, it could besomething where it's, maybe
something at work, maybe it wastraffic, maybe it was, who knows

(16:34):
?
So you always have to have apause to understand what's
really happening in the world.
If it is a complete sign ofdisrespect that they know that
they're being late and they justdon't wanna be around, that's
much more of a boundary that youneed to put up.
Be much more assertive andaggressive with it.
That means that sounds morealong the lines of I'm

(16:57):
interested in a relationshipthat shows up.
If you're not interested inthat and being with us at dinner
, I need to know that.
Now there are times where Ithink you need to ask them in
ways that want them to talk toyou rather than want them to
close up to you.
So often we feel like theanswer is to attack when they

(17:19):
just make some claim up morerather than trying to be
understanding of.
What is it about us that makesyou not wanna be here and that
starts to crack that a whole lotmore?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
And it also I mean the other part of that is being
able and willing to hear whatthey might honestly say yeah,
and sometimes those answers backmight be well then, oh, there
is something about us that makesme not wanna be here and here
it is right.
And then that can lead to acycle of poor interaction, poor

(18:02):
communication.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, you'll get in a circle.
Yeah, how many times you get ina.
It's cyclical where you'regetting in an argument, you come
to the same place, but it justgets worse.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
It just gets worse.
And, Jefferson, I can imaginethat, with you having a history,
a family history, aprofessional history, just the
experience in your life, thewhat's, Lord, I'm looking for,
Like the importance that youhave put on communication, just
in general for you, you probablytend to show up communicating

(18:37):
well in your conversations andin arguments, but there are
probably people that you get inarguments with or disagree with
and they don't give the samekindness back right Like they
don't think of not using, notsaying it in a challenging way
and saying why?
Right, so how do you handle?

(18:58):
So we can still continue to usethe example of the wife who's
mad at the husband.
So let's say the wife is doingall these things, she's
approaching it in the right way,not asking why but looking to
see what the core issue is, buthe is using all the wrong
communication styles and blamingher and X, Y and Z, and she's
having to, like keep her calm inthe middle of a very difficult

(19:21):
conversation.
How would you recommend tocontinue on in that conversation
when the other person isdifficult to talk to?

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Oh yeah, well, that's just about any argument.
They're gonna be difficult totalk to, especially when you're
trying to calm things down in away.
So what has been verybeneficial for me is that I
frame my arguments at the outset.
So let's say I'm the wife inthis situation and I know deep

(19:53):
down he's a good dad or that hereally loves us.
That's not the issue.
There's not a fear of like areyou going around, do you not
love me?
That's not the issue.
It's just he's not coming home.
When he says he's gonna comehome To me, you can frame a
conversation by oneacknowledging what you know and

(20:15):
a quality you want them to have.
So if you and I can really let'ssay you and I are in an
argument and I can start at theoutset of saying look, I know
that being on time is importantto you, I know that attention to
detail is important to you.

(20:36):
I know that respect isimportant to you.
Whatever quality I want you tohave at that time, I want you to
show up in.
I say it.
I speak that over theconversation.
So if I am the wife, I say look, I know that you love us and
you love our children, and soyou give me at the outset boom,
you've set the tenor of they arenow not going to be feeling

(20:58):
threatened of.
I have to show you how much Ilove you.
But I do this, but I do that by.
I mowed the yard but I did this.
I paid the bills, I'm workinglike I know.
I know that you work hard forus and our family.
Boom, I've already calmed itdown.
That's that's.
You've hit a fear that theycould have.
Then you frame it, you put anend to the conversation and not

(21:19):
an end, but you put a backstopto it.
I want to have a conversationwith you, a real conversation
with you, about you coming homelate, and at the end of it, I
want to know why you're notcoming home late in ways that we
can think together of makingsure you're at home on time.
I want to be a help to that.
Boom, you've now put a backstopon it, say, hey, we're going to

(21:43):
have this conversation.
Maybe it gets ugly, maybe itgets tense, but I've already
claimed at the end of it this ishow I want this to go.
Can you agree to that?
And when you get their buy-ininto the conversation on the end
, that's always better.
So a lot of times you don'thave to agree how to get there.
You just have to be aligned onthe goal.

(22:04):
So if you can get them to buyin on, are you willing to engage
in a conversation with me aboutways we can get you here on
time?
They're down for that.
Okay, then let's.
Then let's talk about it.
What's happening?
You're going to find way moresuccess than that in this just

(22:24):
throwing darts game.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Because that's typically.
We just like to send zingers,things that can hurt.
I'm here with the kids, you'renot.
I have this, you're not, andall you're doing is making.
You're hurting them, you'remaking them defensive and you're
not at all addressing the trueissue.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
A key takeaway I took from what you just said is
entering into the conversationwith a goal, and how often do
people not?

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Every time I mean, how many times have we been on
an argument?
And you think to yourself howdid this start?
Where was I going with this?
You go around.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Where am I wanting to end?

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Or even like what's the point?
Two, you go.
One, you say how did we even,how did we start?
And then how do we get out ofthis argument?
Like we've just we've lost ourway.
How did this even begin?
You started talking aboutironing clothes and next thing
you know you're talking about.
You know something thathappened in 2007 on a bad date

(23:29):
that you had, like you justnever know.
Yeah, goals, goals.
Knowing what you want the endgoal to be before you even start
often cuts down a lot on thefluff.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
So you and your wife, do you just have super
effective communication, clearcut arguments that have a goal
in mind, Like or does she everget frustrated that she's up
against someone who's like a proat communication, or do you
ever get frustrated, yeah?
Because maybe she's better atit than you.

(24:01):
Who knows?

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Well, she's an attorney too.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Oh, my yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
We've known each other since we were teenagers,
so knew each other long beforewe were attorneys.
Yeah, and all it means in termsof an attorney is that she just
knows if I ever, if well,either one of us ever go into
cross examination mode.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Explain what that means for the listeners.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
That means I'm asking questions to prove a point,
like I'm using my questions toprove my point for me.
And so if I wanted, let's thinkof a scenario if I wanted to
prove that you've left thegarage door open, I don't know,
I'm just making something andshe's saying no, I didn't.

(24:50):
My cross examination mode isyou had carpool that day?
Yeah, you left after I did.
Yeah, I didn't get home beforeyou did I.
No, you're the one who left thegarage door.
But like you're like I'm poking, I'm using my cross exam and my
questioning to prove my point.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
But isn't that effective in the courtroom?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yes, yeah, that's what I'm saying.
It's not beneficial forinterpersonal relationship, it's
I just mean yeah, I just meanthat, to say that we're both
very aware of when we go intothat mode and as soon as we do,
we're very quick to say do notcross examine me.
Oh, yep, sorry, like it's justa habit.

(25:37):
You can't really help it, butwe're very aware of when that's
happening.
But yeah, do I get frustrated?
Does she get frustrated?
Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Let's switch topics a little bit and talk about
negotiation.
So what are some ways thatpeople can have the most success
in getting what they want in?
And let's keep it within amarriage or within a romantic
relationship.
So you're wanting to agree on abudget and you have one person

(26:13):
who is more of the like I wantto save all our money so we can
go on exotic vacations everyyear.
And we have the other personwho's like I don't want to have
a budget because I feelfrustrated by it, or I feel
enclosed by, like a prisoner tothe money.
I don't want to be told howmuch to spend, and so you don't
have agreement.

(26:34):
How do you, how would youencourage either of those people
to approach that conversationwith a negotiation mindset?

Speaker 2 (26:42):
That's hard you have.
Always there's a spender and asaver right In the relationship.
In my relationship, I'm thespender, my life's the saver.
I'm a show of pinch of pennyinto a dime, dime or as I'm like
if I want it, I feel likethat's what, if I can afford it,

(27:07):
that's what I want.
The best way I have found tohave those kind of discussions
one is you frame it of.
Is this something you want totalk about?
Because if not, then we need toadd in somebody else.
I think marriage counseling ishealthy.
I don't have any problem withadding a third party into the
mix because oftentimes,especially with money, it

(27:29):
becomes a quicksand forsignificant relationship issues.
I think money leads oftentimesto divorce in many ways.
So I have no problem withadding somebody into the mix.
So let's say that's.
We'll set that aside.
If you want to be mostpersuasive in a negotiation, I

(27:52):
really like to use the phrasewhat's the chance you can really
use that in any context what'sthe chance that you and I can
talk about Our finances withoutus yelling?
What's the chance that you andI can sit down tonight after the
kids go to bed and line out abudget for the month?

(28:12):
So that often is just a quickwarm up to say we can engage
your temperature right now.
So what's the chance?
But you can really use that foranything you want to get.
You want to see if you can getupgraded the hotel.
You know what's.
What's the chance.
What's the chance there's anyother, better rooms available,
anything like that?
What's the chance?

(28:33):
Always works at a restaurant.
What's the chance they have anyof this left In terms of trying
to get them more to buy inseriously with?
They don't want to sit down.
They don't want to do this.
You got to show them thebenefit of what they can get if
they do.
I mean, goals are very enticingeven for them.

(28:55):
If we sit down and save and youdon't go to Starbucks, you know
, but once a week, this is whatwe can.
This is what we can do.
So I think goals are all evenimportant in this context.
There's not really a set ofwords that are going to make
them sit down and be serious.
I think you need to haveconversations about their

(29:16):
seriousness first and then makesure that's good and then go to
the next level of or.
Now let's start talking aboutthe, the budget and what you're
willing to work on.
I find that negotiations onlygo well if you you get you
understand them first.
So that means you're askingquestions of what's your own

(29:39):
personal feelings on how youwhen we get money and you see
that we have money and what goesthrough your brain what are you
thinking about?
Understand how they think sothat they open up more and then
you have more understanding ofwhere to go from there.
Because when you get into thehabit of like I don't understand
you, I can't get how you think,how could you not think this?

(30:01):
You're such an idiot thatyou're going to block them off,
they're going to get defensiveand they're not going to want to
do anything with your budget.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah or other things, right, I mean that's a good
thing that just pushes the otherperson away.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
in general, yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (30:18):
Do people ever ask you like what's the five secret
phrases that can just transformmy communication and get me or
help?

Speaker 2 (30:30):
me get whatever I want, Nobody's asked me like
that before but I can give you afew that I like to use.
Number one is maybe so.
So anytime you get something tokeep yourself from getting

(30:51):
defensive, make somebody elsedie down, when you hear
something that's going to makeyou want to, oh yeah, what about
you?
Whenever you feel that feeling,you say, well, maybe so, Boom,
Instantly just diffuses it.
It's done.
What else can they say?
They feel like okay, satisfiedof all right.

(31:11):
Well, okay, At least consideredit.
But yeah, but you, in the sameway, I'm not taking it on.
Well, maybe, so it's havingthat, what I just consider a
flexible mindset, that growthmindset.
If you're too loose, there'schaos, right.
If you're too rigid, you're notletting anything in or out.

(31:33):
But if you can have someflexibility of well, maybe
you're right, so I like maybe,so, Maybe you're right.
That's also one that I use veryfrequently is maybe you're
right.
I'm giving the possibility thatI could certainly be wrong.
People love that.
They cannot get enough of theidea that you're considering In

(31:58):
any context.
They're like oh, my God, it'sreal.
So whenever you tell somebody,oh, maybe you're right, they hit
some because they heard theword right, which satisfies them
.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Right next to the word you.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
Correct, yeah.
And they don't really hear themaybe part.
They just hear that you'reright, yeah.
At the same time, you'rerecognizing that you could
certainly be wrong.
Another phrase I like to use isI could be better.
I can do that better.
I could have done that better.

(32:34):
I'll be better.
Any phrases like that helpsignificantly Oftentimes,
especially towards the end of anargument.
It's a great way of creating abridge to connect to the other
person.
So I've had somebody I havemultiple people actually tell me
they love that phrase.

(32:54):
One was a lady who she messagedme and said at the end of this
argument with my husband, I knewwe'd been married like 12 years
.
At the end of the argument Isaid I can be better, and he
responded I can be better too.
She said I've never heard thatfrom this man in all of our

(33:16):
years of marriage.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
When you just acknowledge yourself of, hey, I
can be better, because it'salways true, right, no matter
what, you can always be justthat 1% better.
That's enough of anacknowledgement of you know,
this wasn't my best, next time Ican be better.
I'll work on that.
And oftentimes they say thesame thing.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
I love those.
What do you personally do whenyou get frustrated?
In an argument?
I mean, you've shared somethings, but have you just done
it so much that these are yourgo-to phrases?
When you feel like someone'sattacking you or saying things
that are just blatantly wrong orblatantly lie, I mean, when

(34:04):
that sense of justice kind ofcomes up in you, how do you keep
yourself calm?

Speaker 2 (34:11):
How do I keep myself calm?
Breathing works every time.
I am a big proponent of thebreath because I can tell them
my shoulders.
My shoulders are getting tense,what happens so?
The traps that my muscles getreal tight and I realize what am
I doing.
So if I breathe big breath inand out, that helps me a lot to

(34:35):
calm down.
But I also tend to this is justfrom repetition I like to
detach myself from bad argumentsso I like to kind of watch them
.
They're a party kind of thingof understanding what's
happening in that moment.
So when somebody is saying badstuff to me, I picture myself

(34:59):
having like a garbage trash canright here.
So whenever I get it I just putit away.
I never allow it to, I don'tallow myself to carry it, I
don't allow myself to take itpersonally.
I hear it.
I don't even.
I'm not even putting in mybasket, I'm just putting in the
trash.
And that image to me helps,keeps me a lot more calm, so

(35:21):
that I'm not chasing rabbittrails to no man's land If I
want to stay right on path.
That's one of the mostfrustrating things, I think, for
people and they get really madat it.
In an argument is the personwho's being logical, because at
that moment you want to beemotional.
You want them to be emotional.
You have to find a way thatthis is threatening to me.

(35:42):
I have to fight or flight.
I need to fight you.
I want to say something hurtful, I want to throw something.
This is my fight mode saying Ineed to beat you.
But if you don't ever presentyourself as an opponent in a way
to where they're never able torise to, really to grab onto
something like if I yelled backat you, I've now just gave them
a pedestal to jump even further.

(36:04):
If I say something ugly, I'venow just justified their words.
Now they get to grab for moreevery time.
But if I just never offer that,I diffuse it every time, and so
often I'll have other attorneysgo.
Man, I wish you weren't on thiscase, or else I'd be able to
get a lot more passionate andangry, and just not able to,

(36:27):
because I never provide themthat robe.
So breath works a lot.
Slowing my voice and my wordsdown help a lot.
Slowing your words is alwaysvery useful.

Speaker 1 (36:44):
And calming.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
And calming.
Yeah, so it calms them down IfI have somebody on the phone or
in front of me and they're allworked up just for me to say
look at them and say I hear you,it doesn't matter who it is,
they go okay.
I just want to know that I'macknowledging them oftentimes

(37:08):
and that calms me down prettyquickly.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Are there ever times, though, when you want to excite
them, so, instead of calm themdown, you need them to actually
be a bit more passionate.
And then what do you do inthose instances?
Just the opposite, like talkfaster, you got it.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
That's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
So if I'm wanting to ampsomebody up, if I really want to
get things going, I'm going totalk a whole lot faster.
My volume is going to start toincrease and I'm going to say
hey look, I need you to beengaged here with me.
I say this, I need you to bethat, and then now I'm starting
to get them elevated becausethey're starting to match my
frequency.
That's what I do.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
That's right.
I was like I'm all in,Jefferson, Tell me where are we
going.

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, hey, we're going todo this, come on.

Speaker 1 (37:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Then they are.
Now they feel like all right,we're on a team, let's go.

Speaker 1 (37:59):
I'm ready to just run through a brick wall For sure.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
What about for the people who they've had an
argument?
It was terrible.
They've had all the wrongthings, but they're wanting now
to reset, so they're wanting totake a break and then they're
wanting to reengage in that sameconversation.
How do you reengage properly?

Speaker 2 (38:21):
Let me clarify.
Have they disengaged yet?
Like they're in separate rooms,they're not talking to each
other and they want to come backtogether.
That's a great question.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
Can we talk about it with both?
So let's say they've taken atimeout, a specific timeout, but
they're going to be coming backtogether, and then let's talk
about you're in the middle of itand you realize this isn't
going the way I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
How do you?

Speaker 1 (38:42):
reset.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
Okay, so I would, if they are separated, not talking
to each other.
This is a pretty.
I'm going to make this pointreal quick though, too.
When they come together, a veryopen way of starting to just
make a runway for the otherperson to come together with you

(39:04):
is to say that was not my bestself, Just admitting that was
not my best moment.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
Like that.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yeah, just to have that, you were taking ownership
of the fact that who I was wasnot who I want to be right now.
Oftentimes in arguments peoplewill say what kind of demeanor
do I need to have?
You already have it, you justdon't use it.
So if you and I, kimberly, ifyou and I are in an argument and

(39:36):
we're just hashing out, I meanwe're just saying things and
eventually I say somethingthat's gone one step too far, I
hurt too much.
I made a comment that I knew ithurt because I wanted it to
hurt.
And let's say, you start to cry, I start to cry, we go in
separate rooms.

(39:56):
Then we come back together 30minutes later, an hour later.
How are we talking?
Then we're a lot softer.
Hey, hey, I'm sorry.
I said that.
It's not what I meant.
I mean you hear how theconversation.
Now you sound softer, now youslow things down, now you're

(40:17):
actually listening to what theyhave to say, coming at it.
From my point of view, this iswhat happened.
Oh, that's not what I meant.
From my point of view, you haveall the tools, you're just not
using them in that way.
But let's say they haven'tseparated yet.
If they're just hashing at it.
Somebody needs to take atimeout and say this we're

(40:40):
running in circles.
This is more harm than goodright now.
Can we take a and put a timeframe on it?
Can we come back to thistomorrow or tonight or in 30
minutes?
I think I just need to take awalk for a second.
Somebody needs to take theresponsibility of saying this is

(41:00):
not going anywhere.
This is not helpful to us.
This is more.
This is doing more harm thangood, and I think we need to
reset.
Nothing wrong with that.
All that, yeah, as long as youmake it clear that this is not
me giving up.
This is not me leaving theconversation.
I want to continue it, but Iwant to continue it in a healthy

(41:20):
way.
Can you, what's the chance youagree with that?
And they'll say, yeah, that's achance.
Yeah.
Maybe it's true, yeah yeah,yeah, maybe, so, maybe so.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Maybe so, maybe.
So.
What I'm getting from a lot ofthe things you've said and just
kind of summarizing, is it takesa lot of personal
self-awareness and forwardthinking to have good
communication.
So self-awareness and maturityto be able to say, to be able to

(41:52):
say maybe you're right or maybeso, and not to get so defensive
in the moment, but as well, Imean.
I go back to what you said ofhave a goal Like what's the goal
for the, what's the goal forthe argument, what's the goal
for the conversation, and beingable to frame that on the front
end Huge game changer.
That's something I'm probablygoing to start using today.
I'm sure I'm going to encountersome conversation today in my
life where I'll say here's thegoal, here's kind of the

(42:14):
boundaries of it, here's what Iwant to see us get to.
And it may not be pretty everystep along the way, but I
believe that we're on the sameteam and can get there if we
work together.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
One thing that even that's verypowerful to say at the outset
like that, when you want toreframe it say look, I need
permission from you to saythings even if they don't make
sense to say things, even ifit's venting or even if it's

(42:46):
messy.
You know what I mean.
I need you to understand.
I'm going to say things thatmay not make sense to you, but I
need to just say them and Idon't need you to respond yet, I
just need to be able to saythem.
Ken's good, you know, can yoube in that with me?
But when we say, like the biggerthemes of what we're talking
about here today is, yes, it'sdefinitely good to have that

(43:11):
sense of detachment, maturity,being able to have a goal, I
would think a very big key is tounderstand that the person you
see, even at home, even theperson you live with, is often
not the person you're talking to, because you see them at home,

(43:32):
busy doing this and that, butthat's just what you see.
But who you're talking to is theperson that this morning got
really frustrated that theirhair was done right and they got
self conscious and they'rehaving a bad day, or they had a
text from their mother who setthem off and got them upset, or
they had something happen atwork that got them overly

(43:53):
stressed, or maybe they got abill in the mail that they don't
know about yet and they justall of a sudden they got sent
into finances.
The person you see is reallythe person you're talking to.
So when you get into theargument side of things, the
more curious you are aboutwhat's happening to them.
Rather than being so defensiveof what's being said to you,

(44:14):
it's like you reverse engineerthe conversation.
When you just have thecapability of they say something
ugly, you just like no, that'snot what I'm looking at.
I want to ask about you, what'shappening here?
Because once you find that,that's where you found the issue
.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
I love that, I really love that.
That's fantastic and I'm sureI'll be able to use that today
too in some of the conversationsI'm going to have later.
Weird question.
I have a couple more questionsas we end.
I love those questions.
We'll do more.
Maybe these will be likefireball questions, lightning

(44:52):
questions.
Are you concerned about what AImight do to human communication
?

Speaker 2 (44:59):
No, no, there's.
We've had plenty of indirectcommunication, like with text
text alone, emails.
There is nothing that cancommunicate your point of view
more than your own words.
So many times I'm texting withanybody and there's that concern

(45:25):
of I'm not understanding thiscorrectly or I'm taking this
email the wrong way If I callyou instantly resolved,
instantly resolved.
There's something as a humanthat we'd like to hear human
voices.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Very true.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
We'd like to feel.
You know the.
We are meant to hear the warmth, that, like we're the, we are
meant to feel the warmth ofsomebody's smile, not see it in
an emoji Like those are justpixels on a screen and you can
tell and you hear my voice whenI'm not smiling versus when I am
smiling, and we just know it,because that is just part of our

(46:05):
biology, so I'm not concernedabout it.
Would I say it's more efficientwhen I say it's really cool?
Do I think it's going to havesome great benefit?
Yeah, sure, why not?
I mean, everybody was alwaysafraid of whatever the next
technology was going to be, butI don't think anything's going
to change the impact orimportance of people's voice.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
How do you keep, or do you keep yourself from being
just totally immersed in socialmedia?
I mean, you have a pretty largefollowing.
You're doing stuff all the timeon it.
How do you not let it run yourlife?

Speaker 2 (46:43):
You just don't.
I mean I don't you stop talkingabout it.
I mean, yeah, I mean you justdon't you just make a decision.
That Again, like for me, it'swhat am I here for?
Am I here to exist for an appon my phone?
You know I can be here.
I'm here at my house right now,like you and I were discussing

(47:05):
before the episode, when I'mhere with my family.
Am I two kids?
You think they care at allabout 6 million people on my
phone?
No, they don't.
I'm here, Like I'm physicallyhere.
So, as long as you have thatcare for your priority is the

(47:25):
people in front of you, not thepeople through the screen.
So I try to have that mentalityand also just have a sense of
relief of too many times peopleare so focused on followers and
engagement.
You have to have followers, youhave to have engagement.
I'm a firm believer that thepeople that are meant to follow
you will follow you.
If they wanna unfollow, theywill.

(47:46):
People who wanna stay will stay.
But if you get into this senseof as soon as you feel like you
deserve followers, that's thetime that you don't Is my point
of view on it.
So I try to just I fit mysocial media into my life.

(48:07):
I don't fit my life around mysocial media.
So I think having that aspectof it, that's the reason why I
don't include my kids, my wifeI'm not gonna.
I don't ever wanna be at apoint where it's like all right,
everybody get together, we'regonna make this post oh no, you
didn't smile good enough, that'snot cute.
Like, why even make thatdynamic?

(48:27):
That's not what I, that's notwhat it is, it's not real.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
What if it all went away tomorrow?
What would you do?

Speaker 2 (48:35):
I said that was a fun game.
I just say that was a cool ride.
If it all went away tomorrow,it'd still be exactly exactly
what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Would you be sad Of?

Speaker 2 (48:46):
course, yeah, there'd be a chance of.
Of course I'd be sad.
Maybe, so, yeah, maybe so,because I, at this point, I feel
a very strong sense ofresponsibility to people that
follow me, rely on my advice orrely on my opinion.
I do think if you give anopinion in any social space, you

(49:11):
have an obligation to make surethat it is good and sound and
from a right place and from agood heart, one that's going to
put more light into the world,and I take that very seriously.
So if it all went away, itwould be more of a concern of
the people who I can't help.

(49:34):
Yeah, there's no way I could beable to reach them in that way.
But in terms of, like thevanity of what would you do if
you lost all your followers?
I'd still make the same videoat the same time.
I still make the same video nowas I did when I was like pumped
about a thousand views.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Two more, two more quick questions.
You're good when it comes tokids and communicating with them
, specifically in terms ofdiscipline.
How would you communicate, like?
What kind of what stays thesame of what you've talked about
so far and what might shift forsomeone who doesn't have a

(50:18):
fully developed prefrontalcortex?
Or other areas of their brain.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Right.
One thing that for sure staysthe same is the tone and cadence
of your voice.
So if I were to say to my sonangrily what are you thinking,
what are you doing?
Like, what's wrong with you?
Yeah, what's wrong, fine, yeah.

(50:44):
Oh, my God, that's the worstthing I could ever say.
Versus, if I slow down my tone,you know my rhythm.
If I slow down my words, if Ilower my voice, say hey, man,
you want to talk to me aboutwhat was going through your head
?
What do you, where would thatcome from?
And become equally as curiousabout what goes through his head

(51:08):
, because what goes through hishead is not what's going through
mine.
At the time, it made sense forhim to, you know, cut up a
dollar bill.
He just want to see you knowwhat I mean, like he just want
to see what would happen.
That was it, and you know whatwe found out.
So it's you know what I mean.

(51:28):
So it's like it's how that'scool, man, and what did you and
what did you learn it?
Just, they do cut, just likepaper.
That's right, they really do.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
And I take this as a real situation.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, and he's well.
He went through like just a, ascissor mode.
So then he, like at school, hecut his shirt and the question
asked like what's going on,what's up with that man?
He's like I just wanted to seeif it would cut.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Just I was curious.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Well, I said what we learned.
He's like.
It does Like, yeah, you'reright man, it really does, don't
they?
So, yeah, the way you speakmatters a great deal, often more
than what you say.
We hear how you say it, thewhen you yell and say harsh
things, it's very hard toregister for anybody.

(52:19):
It's very hard to register Ifyour kid is yelling and
screaming.
Rarely does yelling andscreaming at them make it any
better.
It is again, they need to matchand they will mirror your
frequency.
So if my daughter is goingcrazy on something, if I just
repeat to her I can't hear youwhen you're yelling, maybe I

(52:42):
can't.
I cannot hear you when you'reyelling at me.
Boom, within two times he'salways will come down and she'll
, she'll.
You know she was tell-tellingon something.
So yeah, those, those are themost important.
I think to to how you say tothem and keep a a mind of
curiosity of what's, what'sreally going through their,

(53:06):
their head.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
You mentioned at the beginning that your parents
prayed over you, that you wouldhave wisdom.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
What are you praying over your children?

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Now the same prayer.
So it's, it's the same same,exact one.
So my dad would pray.
They would pray dear God, giveJefferson wisdom and always be
his friend.
That was my, that was my prayerevery night.
I pray the same.
I pray the same thing.
I make it a little bitdifferent.
So with my daughter, I'd praythat she have confidence in
wisdom, like I want her to be.

(53:39):
She's full of fire and I neverwant that to ever go, ever Now.
With my son, it is charisma,wisdom, confidence is all those
words that I I want to instillin him.
That, just to be kind, like onetime he came home this was, this
was a few weeks ago and I camehome and he's like dad, aren't

(54:05):
you so proud of so?
And so is a is a girl at aschool and I I don't know who
this kid is I was like whathappened?
He's like she did so good onher handwriting that she got a
prize.
I'm so proud of her dad.
And I was like I was just.
I was totally, oh my gosh.

(54:25):
I started tearing up because atthat point I was like what else
?
Because what else can I ask for?
Absolutely, my child would feelproud of another kid who was
struggling with you know how towrite, how to write her her
words, and that he was thatexcited for her, so that that
kind of stuff is just anaffirmation of you.

(54:46):
Just you continue to pray forkindness and they hear those
words.
I mean, I think that's also.
They hear it.
When they hear it, I knowthat's what you want for them,
that's what they're going tochase after too.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
That was awesome, Jefferson.
It's been fantastic speakingwith you.
I've loved our conversation.
Love getting to connect withyou.
Where's the best place forpeople to follow you?

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Instagram.
Yeah, Instagram.
If they have Facebook or TikTok, I like Instagram.
It's just Jefferson Fisher,You'll find me.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
And that is F-I-S-H-E-R.
The normal spelling of Fisher.
Go, follow Jefferson.
He has some great content outthere and, of course, you got to
hear him and all of his greatwisdom that his parents prayed
for and that he was able toshare with us today.
Thank you again, jefferson.
I appreciate your time.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Here are my key takeaways from today's episode.
When it comes to communicatingwell, it really does take the
same amount of self-awarenessand forward thinking as it
should in anything that we takeseriously.
Our words can bring life orthey can bring death.

(56:00):
They can build someone up orthey can tear someone down, and
in our communication is the bestway that we can show other
people that we care about themor make them feel like we
absolutely don't.
When we talk about being thebest person that we can be,
being the best version ofourselves, we know that
emotional attraction is a bigpart of that, and communication

(56:22):
is really important when itcomes to evoking emotions within
other people that they enjoyfeeling, and Jefferson had some
great key takeaways of that.
The first one is I love how hetalks about approaching the
conversation with curiosity,especially when you're angry or
frustrated or feel like you'retrying to get vindication or

(56:45):
anything like that.
I love that thought process ofI hear everything you're saying
and how you're attacking me orcomplaining or whatever it is.
But let's put that aside.
I wanna understand what'sreally happening inside of you
right now.
The way that he said it is theperson that you're talking to
isn't the person who you know,like the things that have

(57:09):
happened in their life, or Ibelieve he said it the opposite.
The person you know isn't theperson that you're talking to.
Things have happened in theirday, in their life, in their
mind, that we don't understandat every single given moment.
So be curious about seeingwhat's really under the hood of
the situation.
The second thing is having agoal for the argument or a goal

(57:31):
for the conversation and framingit on the front end.
Hey, I'm upset about this, butmy goal that I would love to
explore with you today is, orright now, is, how can we get
aligned on this X, get alignedon our budget, get aligned on
our schedule, get aligned onthis decision that we need to

(57:53):
make, whatever it is.
What's the chance that we coulddo that now?
Framing the conversation ofwhat you're going into it
feeling like and what you hopeto get out of it.
And then my third key takeawayfrom today was to deflate and
just take the power out ofcertain arguments by saying

(58:14):
maybe, so, maybe you're right, Icould be better.
All of those are true in everysituation, and it really does
take the anger and frustrationout of a situation, to deflate
it so that you can work bettertogether, to get on the same
page and actually get thingsdone.
And go follow Jefferson atJefferson Fisher.
It was great to talk to himtoday.

(58:35):
If you have a friend, familymember, loved one that you would
love to share this episode with, please do.
It helps the conversation.
I'm going to go ahead and talkto him about the conversation
that I'm going to talk about.
It helps the show to grow byreaching more people and, as
always, leaving those reviewswherever you listen to podcasts
is one of the best gifts thatyou could give to help the show

(58:57):
spread even more.
Until next week, stay strong.