January 21, 2025 • 51 mins
Have a question you want answered? Submit it here!
Discover the 5 step method we use to improve communication. Not only does this help with communication between us as spouses, but it can also be used in conversations with friends, family, coworkers, and everyone in between!
Let’s dive in to this week’s episode!
Links to SMART Communication Episode:
Episode 1
Episode 2
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
🔗 Website: https://itstartswithattraction.com
📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes
👀 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kimberlybeamholmes
Follow our other channels!
📺 https://youtube.com/@UC7gCCAhhQvD3MBpKpI_4g6w
📺 https://youtube.com/@UCEOibktrLPG4ufxidR8I4UQ
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Oscar Wilde once said I think what ruins
relationships and causes mostfights is insecurity.
So I'd like to talk about thattoday.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Sounds like a really good episode topic.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Secure communications , but not like encrypting your
communications or using signal.
What's that?
What's that?
Becoming emotionally secure,and from that position of
emotional security we thencommunicate with other people.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, that is such a big issue that I see even at
Marriage Helper I mean so manymarriage issues we have stem
from insecurities that we thenend up feeling really upset or
hurt based on how someone elsecommunicates with us.
(00:51):
We internalize that we thenfight back with them instead of
having the self-awareness tothink like why, why did that
affect me so much?
Insecurity is.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I mean how insecurity affects us, then shows, then
affects how we treat otherpeople and the behaviors we end
up having and at marriage helper, you guys even develop smart
contact to help people who areparticularly insecure, as
they're communicating, oftenwith a spouse who wants out of
the marriage yeah, it's a way togive a framework of like here's
(01:21):
how to calm down in yourcommunication, and so we
actually have two versions of it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
There's the one for the marriage in crisis, but then
I also took that version andkind of created a smart
communication.
So there's some changes to someof the acronym that aren't as
crisis focused and are more justgeneral life framework, and
it's just a framework of here'show to communicate in a way that
shows that you are strong andcalm but can also be gentle in
(01:50):
your communication.
And it's huge.
I mean, the way that wecommunicate or the way that we
don't communicate really is theintimacy.
It really makes the biggestdifference in intimacy in a
marriage is is communication andthe ability and the
communication isn't just verbal,it's also nonverbal.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Can we delve into smart contact?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, it's been a minute since I've done the
non-crisis one, so I don't knowthat.
I remember all of that acronymoff the top of my head.
But there's a full podcastepisode where I break it down,
for on it starts with attractionfrom a few years ago and we can
link to that in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
We could also just have our producer Jason just
edit that whole episode in righthere right here.
So, starting at the point I'm,talking now, and that'll make
the episode like two hours long.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
But for both of them, as I already said, the premise
is it's a framework that you cankeep in your mind when you are
feeling frustrated or whenyou're feeling like I just need
to reach out.
I do this.
This is me texting Like I justneed to reach out, I need this
person to respond to me.
It's a way to get you to calmdown.
So the first the S is stop thepushes, stop doing the things
(03:04):
that are pushing the otherperson away.
And that's true in every,literally in every communication
that you could get into.
Like you and I have a goodmarriage and there's still times
where we can get mad at eachother and we can get frustrated,
and we can get annoyed andupset and uh and act, you know,
(03:26):
negatively towards the other.
We were so an example, likelast week when you and I were in
Phoenix and, um, the, we hadlike the car play hooked up to
my Apple, to my iPhone, and Idid something on my phone and
the maps went away.
Yeah, and you're in the middleof like I need, in the middle of
you on like I-10 with a ton oftraffic, and so you were like,
(03:48):
get the map back on.
And so I got the map back on.
But then I was like super quietafter that and at some point
you said, at some point you werelike what's wrong?
And I said, well, you couldhave just asked nicely to put to
put the mat back on.
And you said that's not whatyou said.
You said I will do that in thefuture.
(04:12):
And when that happened in thelike the, the days following
that, you were like, hey, canyou get the mat back on?
But all that's to say is likeyou were frustrated in that
moment.
You needed to communicatesomething with me.
What you did, kind of in and ofitself, was a push behavior.
But I could have and I'm notsaying I responded in the
perfect way by just like beingquiet, cause I also could have
(04:34):
spoken up and said like you know, hey, I'll.
You know, yes, let me get thatback up.
But in the future I could havebeen proactive in my ask.
But instead I kind ofstonewalled in a little bit of a
way, which is a push behavior.
But I also could have respondedby saying how dare you speak to
me that way.
Right, that's a push behavior,so it's identifying not the
(04:55):
other person's push behavior,but it's identifying yours.
What are the things that I needto stop doing in this moment,
in this heated conversation, inorder for me to gain calmness
mentally?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
In push behaviors.
It's my understanding thatthose are more than likely their
own podcast episode already.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I mean, yeah, probably.
So there's a lot.
It's anything I mean.
If we want to just summarize it, it is anything you do that
pushes the other person away,whether you intend for that to
happen or not.
So it's not as much about myintention about whether or not
what I'm doing is pushing youaway.
It's about whether you perceiveit as a push.
So my the onus is on me to sayI respect what you see as a push
(05:42):
and I will therefore honor that.
Okay, so that's stoppingpushing the push behavior.
The M stands for manage businessitems.
Now, in smart communication,when we're talking about just
like general framework for goodcommunication, it's manage
(06:03):
expectations, and both of themhold the same underlying concept
, which is a lot of times weenter into conversation
expecting it to go a certain wayor expecting, you know, I might
send you a really mushy textmessage and I expect you to just
(06:24):
ooze back to me all of thethings that you love about me as
well.
But if your response is justokay, yeah, then it's going to
make me angry or it's going tohurt me, right, which could then
affect the next thing I say toyou if I'm not aware of that.
So instead, it's a managerexpectations Don't do something
(06:46):
or say, like if I'm going tosend you a really kind, mushy,
gushy text message that's howmuch I love you and how much I
appreciate you Well, myexpectation should be that I'm
not expecting to get anythingback.
I'm doing it truly because Iit's not because I'm trying to
seek something from you, it'sbecause I want to give something
(07:06):
to you, and so I'm wanting togive you this really kind word.
Then, even if you say okay,well, I've managed that
expectation, so now I'm notgoing to get upset, right, yeah,
so that's the M.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So in crisis it's managed business items.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And that part is in and it's still in.
It still goes right in linewith managed expectations.
But we called it managedbusiness items because we were
saying if you can't talk withoutfighting, then don't talk about
the things you're fightingabout right now.
Find the things that you thatare kind of the new, the
Switzerland, the neutral ground,and use that as your baseline
(07:48):
for rebuilding positivecommunication.
So, like you and I, sometimeswhen we get in disagreements we
end up changing the subject tosomething like that both of us
just generally enjoy talkingabout.
Maybe it's travel, Like maybewe're fighting over here in this
part of our lives because wecan't agree on whatever, but we
(08:10):
can always agree on loving totravel, or what movie to see, or
what food we might want to goeat, right, so talk about those
things.
When marriages are in crisis,it may even go a step further
down, which is like talk abouthow the kids are doing at school
, talk about the soccer game oryou know, just like share things
(08:30):
that are just not emotional anduse that as your opportunity to
reset a positive communicationflow between the two of you so
that you can end up becausehere's the goal you want to,
just if you can't talk withoutfighting, then you need to find
things you can talk aboutwithout fighting and only talk
about those things so that youwon't fight, and then trust will
(08:53):
start being rebuilt, that I canhave a conversation with this
person and it's not going toturn crazy, and then you build
from there.
That's the whole mindset behindit.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
It reminds me of the episode of big bang theory where
Leonard tells Penny he lovesher and she wasn't ready for
that yet and because she didn'treciprocate by saying it, he
kept whether subtly and he wouldjust like get back at it and
eventually she dumped him, yeah,cause she couldn't take it
anymore.
He was being pushy, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
He had these push behaviors where he would like
bring it up.
He didn't manage hisexpectations, because he's
clearly said it, expecting herto say it back.
Well, she didn't.
And then that affected thewhole cycle to continue
happening and instead of justmoving on, he he kept on right.
So that's a great example of it.
(09:47):
And going back to what westarted out and talking about
insecurity, I mean it's not justfighting or disagreements that
can lead to this.
If there's one spouse who'sjust so clingy and needy, or one
person like maybe it's a datingrelationship, if someone's just
so clingy and needy, that's apush behavior.
And then so like, if that wereme and I'm just like needing you
(10:12):
to pay attention to me, well, Iwill, maybe I'll text you,
maybe I'll call you.
If you don't answer, maybe I'llsend you.
What are you doing?
You know why aren't youanswering me and that anxious
energy is just going to ooze offof me and my expectation is
going to be that you're going tosoothe me.
So I haven't managed myexpectation and if I do sue you.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
That could set us up for a codependent relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So that ends up like feeding this cycle and so, like
the push behavior.
It's a little ironic in thissituation because my push
behavior, which does push youaway, but I'm trying to pull you
towards me, but I'm counter,like it's working against itself
.
So then I want you to do thatand then, when you don't, it
further facilitates me trying topull you towards me and try, in
(11:00):
a bad way, trying to be likewhat else can I do to try and
get his attention?
And so I just keep pulling outall the stops.
It's like kids and this iswhere we learn it, where the
it's like separation, anxietyand young children.
Well, when they're scared thattheir main caregiver, when
they're scared that their maincaregiver might leave them, they
begin to act out more and moreand more because they think if I
(11:23):
can just get their attentionit'll break their heart enough
that they won't leave me, likeyou're trying to pull on those
heartstrings of a mother who'strying to walk out the door.
And so that's where it's thisbuilt in, like mindset that we
had as children, kind of goinginto attachment theory.
For people who didn't have thatsecure attachment with a parent
(11:45):
or in early romanticrelationships, they might be
more prone to be needy andinsecure in their communication
with a romantic partner, whichthen can lead to this, to this
kind of flow.
And then there's the other sideof it, which avoidance is just
(12:05):
as much insecurity as anxiety,so you can also just ignore
someone out of your owninsecurity as well, which again
doesn't lead to that's verycommon in modern era ghosting
and things or people who take along time to reply, which may be
appropriate We'll talk aboutthat in a bit but the A so the A
(12:30):
is to allow the other person torespond, so you want to make
space for conversation to happen.
And then the R is for you torespond back in a way that is
empathetic, that is strong andcalm and gentle.
So it's really and this is kindof the part of communication
(12:52):
most people think about there'sa sender and there's a receiver,
but then there's the receiverback to the sender.
Right, Communication isn't justone way.
You have to know that thatmessage got to the other person.
Well, that's what the A and theR are for.
So I'm providing space for youto reply to me and then, after
your reply and I'm listening,one of the things we were taught
(13:13):
in therapy school, like in mymaster's program for therapy,
was, if you are thinking aboutyour response, of what you're
going to say to someone, asthey're talking, you are not
listening, and so it's actuallya sign of deep respect and like
showing that you're intentlylistening, that when a person's
done for you to say I need timeto process, to think about my
(13:36):
next, like what I want to sayback to you you don't have to
say, you don't have to haveanything queued up, you can have
a pause in between sentencesfrom two people, and and that's
good.
So I want to listen to what youhave to say and I want to truly
understand it.
I want to, even if I, andespecially if I disagree not
(13:57):
even if I disagree, especiallywhen I disagree I want to really
then understand your side andwhy you're coming at it from the
perspective you're coming fromit at, and then I will.
Then the onus is on me onceagain to respond back to you and
continue that conversation in away that shows respect and care
and empathy.
Feels like the completeopposite of defensiveness, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
As close as.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Defensiveness shuts every communication down.
Defensiveness, stonewalling,criticism, contempt those four
horsemen that Gottman talksabout.
They just shut downcommunication and they shut down
intimacy.
So true intimacy is found notjust in the bedroom, but in the
(14:51):
mental and emotional connectionfrom seeking to understand the
other person.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Well, and you talked about intimacy in the bedroom
for for especially women and Ithink men struggle to grasp this
for women, the intimacy thatwill lead to intimacy in the
bedroom starts.
So I've heard sex therapistssay you know the preceding 24
hours before sex.
I think it's much more thanthat.
(15:18):
It could be years, it could bedecades, but you know what can
you control.
And the intimacy that you knowprecedes sex is of the absolute,
utmost importance, you know,for men to understand that
that's what women need.
Going into that, what's the T?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Take it one day at a time, meaning not every
conversation is going to beperfect, not every day is going
to have the perfectconversations, but you can wake
up tomorrow and try again.
Now, my favorite thing is whenpeople ask and I get this all
the time, it never fails.
(16:02):
If I'm doing a webinar, I'mtalking about smart contact or
anything, or smart communicationand people say, well, I've been
trying that and it's notworking.
And I love that questionbecause it's an, it's a teaching
opportunity and a chance for meto like correct some, some
incorrect thoughts.
There's no way this doesn'twork now, because this is the
(16:26):
framework for healthycommunication period.
Look at the research, look atthe psychology.
We've just boiled this downinto things that are simple to
understand and execute on.
But now what someone may besaying is well, I've been doing
this, but the other person isstill ignoring me, acting a fool
, whatever.
Okay, but you can't controlthem.
(16:48):
And even if you try and changeyour communication to try and
control them, for them torespond in the way that you want
them to, well then we're backat a push behavior.
You're trying to control andforce someone to do something
that they aren't naturally doingon their own, and so that's not
the way to look at it.
We have to take ownership andrealize the only person I can
(17:13):
control is me.
I could do smart contactperfectly.
You still have the free will tobe a complete jerk if you want
to.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I will exercise that free will.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
But I also have the choice of whether I'm going to
fall to your level or if I'mgoing to raise my standard of
myself.
Yeah, and that's the choice allof us get to make.
And there's some trying peoplein the world Friends, neighbors,
family members.
Yes, I feel like everyone hasthe crazy Thanksgiving family
(17:49):
member that they dread seeing,especially after elections,
especially after elections,especially after elections.
And so all of us have thosepeople in our lives that we're
like oh, I just want to givethem a piece of my mind, I just
want to whatever.
But if you want to have ahealthy relationship with
someone smart, relationship withsomeone smart, being smart
(18:18):
about your communication is theonly way for you to interact in
that relationship to where itwill be healthy.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I wanted to get into, so we've we've talked about
kind of established relationshipcommunications.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
And did you know about?
Did you know about smartcontact before you?
I mean, I know you knew theterm.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I knew the term.
You had never heard me talkabout it.
I've probably Well, here's thething I may have overheard you
giving a webinar one day, yeah,like over the years.
But as far as doing a deep dive, I could use a refresher.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So this is like my opportunity to have you as a
captive audience.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Is there a quiz to make sure I've memorized
everything?
So we've talked about, you know, committed and established
relationships, marriage, eitherone that's in crisis or one
that's kind of in a healthy spot.
I want to switch gears, and sowe have a diverse audience.
(19:17):
The majority of our audience ismarried, but not everybody, or
it may be the unfortunate factthat some people are either
recently divorced or theythey're about to be, and so I
want to switch into, switchgears to to dating,
communications as well as kindof an.
(19:41):
You know this is a.
I made up the etiquette, if youwill.
But some etiquette and generalprinciples, and it's funny that
you know we talked about SMARTand I actually cover.
I made my own little acronym,sammc, s-a-m-m-c.
It stands for being secureemotionally, so not like
(20:06):
encrypting your text messages,we don't care about that.
Being authentic is the A, beingtrue to yourself.
Being authentic is the A.
Being true to yourself, beingmysterious, that's the first M.
Being measured, so like howresponsive are you?
That's the second M, and thenbeing considerate, and I would
(20:28):
also add respectful to the C.
So SAM, s-a-m-m-c is theacronym I came up with, which I
think kind of covers some of thesmart on some level.
So if you do find yourself in asetting where you're single
especially if you are single,like recently, single again and
(20:52):
you're in your thirties orforties, or or higher, no shame
in being older and then havingto reenter the dating market.
There's a lot of reasons thatcan happen.
I'm not going to make anyassumptions or judgments against
you.
You may have noticed, though,that if, if you are older and
you're reentering even those ofus in our 30s, like if somebody
(21:15):
jumps back in there's datingapps.
There's more social media, sothere's direct messages,
instagram or Facebook.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yes, we started messaging each other on Facebook
.
We did.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Back in the day.
So there's all these things andthen texting and stuff.
So communication has become this24, seven thing when we compare
it to a hundred years agopeople would write letters, you
could make a phone call, but youhad to stay in a stationary
spot to do so and I and I lovethat.
(21:53):
Back then people understood inperson is the king of all
communications.
Just get to be in person, whichI still think we lose sight of
that in the modern era.
So so I would say that the goal, the, the ultimate goal in all
your communications should be atleast my personal opinion is
(22:13):
try to get face-to-face timewith each other.
Understood that you know,long-term or a long, I'm sorry,
long-distance relationship mightbe a little harder.
I don't love long-distancerelationships.
I can't tell people don't dothem.
Because you and I kind of didone when we first started dating
.
We were six hours apart but westill understood face-to-face
time like we did it as often aswe could?
(22:36):
yeah, you're driving six hours,six hour drive twice, I'd roll
in at two and three am, whichwas totally against the rules
for the army at certain nights,to you know, before flying and
stuff.
So let's start with the firstone being being secure.
I mean, what does that evenmean?
You know, what does that meanto you?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
To be secure For a man to be secure, for me to be
emotionally secure.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Both, both men and women.
Well, okay, it may lookdifferent, but I think it's
important for both.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I believe being emotionally secure means that
you're not dependent on anotherperson for your self-esteem or
confidence.
So it's that shift from I don'tknow how I would live without
you to I'd be okay if I had tolive without you, and not
because you don't want and notbecause you would want something
to happen to that person, butbecause it's just this shift in
you of I'd be sad but I wouldmake it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
I feel that one of the great enemies of what you
just said is a they're the onementality.
So, when putting quotationmarks, they're the one.
I found the one this person'smy soulmate they're this is it.
This is the one, this is theperson.
I feel that that mindset can bethe enemy of security in many
ways, because when things startto go sideways and you're like
well this, this is my person.
I feel that that mindset can bethe enemy of security in many
(23:52):
ways, because when things startto go sideways and you're like,
well, this, this is my personyou know, I've only known them
for two weeks, but they're theone, and that happens all the
time, because limerence cancatch you quick and it can do
all kinds of things to you.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, and I don't think that it's always because
someone's saying this is theperfect person.
I think it's a fear of beingabandoned.
So, like going back to thecause of the insecurity.
It's like maybe theyexperienced divorce of their
parents or some kind of traumain early on in their life that
has led to them and theirvulnerability is.
(24:25):
I'm so scared of being alone.
So it's not even as much aboutputting this other person on a
pedestal, as much as it is likeI can't bear the thought of not
being good enough that someonewould want to leave me.
So therefore, you like, for myown mental health and
self-esteem, I need you to wantme.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So the second.
So the first item being secure,being emotionally secure, that
can look like a lot of differentthings.
There's, there's a huge laundrylist of what it doesn't look
like.
Some of that's kind ofintuitive though, and what I
think, what you just described.
So the second item, the A beingauthentic or true to yourself.
(25:06):
So in a way, you know, for menour humor is a part of our
dating market value.
If you will, if you have acorny sense of dad humor, just
go with it.
Not everyone's going toappreciate it.
In fact, it is going to totallyland face first with some
(25:26):
people.
They'll be like what?
Or they won't get it, orwhatever.
That's fine.
They'll be like what?
Or they won't get it orwhatever, that's fine.
You know whether it's your brandof humor, your brand of
(25:47):
communication style, even downto things like you just don't
capitalize letters or useperiods or any punctuation.
that would drive me crazy, butfor some people that's just, you
know, not putting on a fakeself.
When you communicate, you'renot putting on a fake self.
Yeah, when you communicate,you're not.
You're not putting on a fakeself, You're just being yourself
, because you can put on a maskfor a little while to impress
someone.
You can even.
You know, some people arereally good at figuring out okay
, that person's going to likethat other kind of person.
(26:07):
I can become that kind ofperson.
I can become an actor.
I can mimic that, but you can'tmimic that forever and there's
going to come a point where thefacade just has to fall off.
Hopefully you're not married bythe time that happens, cause
(26:27):
that could be epic in a terribleway.
So, um, being authentic, beingtrue to yourself, that's not the
same as if you are just asarcastic, kind of rude, brash
person, just being like, ah,this is who.
I am.
Just going to put that outthere.
If there is something that areasonable person would look at
(26:48):
and say that's not healthy, Iwould say don't make an excuse
and be like, oh, I'm being trueto myself.
I used to do that.
There were, there were a lot ofantisocial, rude or abrasive
behaviors that I had that Idon't think were healthy or good
for myself or other people, andI would use the excuse as just
(27:11):
who I am.
People just have to accept me,you know, being a big jerk
wherever I go, and I'm glad Ichanged my mindset on that.
So we covered the S, beingsecure.
We covered the A, beingauthentic and true to yourself.
So the first M mysterious.
You have to have mystery.
(27:33):
Smooth as caramel you have touse a deeper voice or it won't
be mysterious.
So there's a principle in thepsychological community called
the reciprocity principle.
Are you familiar?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Reciprocity principle .
Speaker 1 (27:49):
The reciprocity principle, particularly when it
comes to attraction.
It states more or less the waythey set up the experiment was
that there was a group of womenexamining men from a lead fake
Facebook profiles that theythought were real.
All the men were attractive, sothey already had that kind of
(28:13):
stabilizing factor there.
The there were some men thatthey would look at and they
would be told by the researchersthat those men thought that
they, that they were told thosemen.
Those men looked at theirprofiles and those men thought
that they, the women, wereattractive.
So the psychologist wanted togauge well, what do you think
about these guys?
(28:33):
They think you're attractive.
So then there were some theynever had a group that was like,
oh, you're ugly, okay.
So thankfully they weren't meanenough to do that.
They said, but then there was agroup that's like, eh, they're,
they're kind of meh, they thinkyou're so-so.
And then there was a groupwhere they were like we don't
know.
They didn't say we just don'tknow if they're attracted to you
(28:56):
or not.
The group where there wasuncertainty got the women's
attention a lot more.
And bear in mind, all these menare approximately similar in
physical attraction andappearance.
I don't know how they measuredthat and made sure of that.
But that's what I read aboutthat psychological experiment.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
It was just Chris Hemsworth and his brothers.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah it was just the Hemsworth guys.
Maybe add in like Henry Cavillor something.
Yeah, it was just the Hemsworthguys.
Um, maybe add in like HenryCavill or something.
Yeah, so the the group, as youcan imagine, the group that they
were like oh, this guy, he sawyour profile, he likes you.
Of course they had relativelypositive feelings about their
dad.
They were like okay, yeah welike him too.
But but and of course, the guyswho were like hey, you're so, so
(29:41):
they're like.
I forget those guys.
But the guys that they werelike you know, we don't know
what they think about you, whichwe just don't know.
They didn't say we can't, wecan't figure it out.
Those ones captured so muchmore brain space in the women
Cause, then they were wonderingwell, do they like me or not?
So, being mysterious isn't Idon't, I don't, you know it's.
(30:06):
It's ironic for me to give adefinition because I am not,
like Mr Mysterious.
With that being said, I dothink there's the general
principle that if you go on afirst date or a second date, or
you're in the especially thebeginning of the dating phase
and you sit down with the otherperson and we talked about this-
(30:33):
earlier where you mentioned, ifyou're trying to formulate your
response and the and let's sayyou're a man and you're just
like oh yeah, I have an MBA, Ihave a, I work in finance and,
by the way, I'm six foot fiveand all these things and I drive
a whatever car kind of braggingor listing.
Because men, we know, we knowinnately that status,
(30:59):
performance, competence and allthose things are generally
attractive.
So a technique many men use isjust spit all that out on the
table, Like just put it all outthere on the first or second
date.
Maybe use subtlety, Maybe don'teven use subtlety, Maybe just
throw it all out there.
But either way it's almost likean accomplishment vomit that we
(31:21):
just kind of and many women arerepulsed not by the
achievements, it's not like thewoman's repulsed by the fact
that you have a higher educationdegree or whatever, that's how
he talks about it.
It's the way you go abouttalking about it and you know
the recommendation from mostauthors on the topic, as well as
psychological studies that helpsupport a lot of the literature
(31:44):
or the books, is more of a slowdrip thing.
And the more your prospectivemate date whomever finds out
through third parties who speakrelatively well of you the
better.
You can't always set that up up, nor should you try and
(32:05):
engineer that, but if it happens, it happened.
Let's say a mutual friend islike oh yeah, he has an mba, you
didn't know that uh, somebodywhen you and I first started
dating, people were like buthold on.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
The backstory is too, though.
Like the backstory part of thisis too is I had date.
I was dating a guy who was apathological liar, so he was the
one who was like oh, I've donethis and my family has a house
on nantucket and we're friendswith tommy hillfiger, or maybe
(32:39):
it was ralph lauren, it doesn'tmatter.
Both of them were lies or I'vebeen to africa on this, like
yeah.
I'm like.
I'm like the executive he waslike 20.
He's like I'm the executivedirector of this nonprofit and
it was ridiculous, right Like.
So it wasn't just that he wasnot humble and not mysterious,
but he was also a liar, so thatwas this other part of it.
(32:59):
So then, and I knew I needed tobreak up with them, I was just,
I don't know, insecure, I guess.
And so then you come along, orcome back along, because we knew
each other as kids and you showup on my Facebook feed and we
had like gone to the samecollege and my friends knew you,
and so it was my friends when Iwas like oh, I'm talking to the
(33:21):
you know this Rob Holmes guy,and they were like oh, rob
Holmes, he's such a good guy,you should totally date him.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I fooled them.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
He, and then they said all these things about you
and I was like, ooh, so the factthat it was coming from trusted
sources who knew theinformation to be true and they
were sharing it about you?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
And apparently I had made a donation to another
friend to go on a mission tripthat I thought the kicker I
thought it was anonymous, like Iand your bestie.
I guess she saw his because youcan see other people on the
trip's balance, I guess in someportal, and she saw I go from
(34:03):
zero to fully paid, likeovernight, and I guess she
figured out a way to get on thebackend and I don't know if I'm
not a tech guy and she saw thatI did it and I thought it was
anonymous and somehow she foundout that I had fully paid for my
buddy's trip and then turnaround and told you yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
That was like the carrot, it was, that was like
the big thing.
And I was like, oh, and itwasn't even that you would pay.
It wasn't about like you havingmoney, it was more, it was
about what you did not.
You had more than most collegestudents because ROTC paid you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well, I graduated and was working.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Right, and this is 2009, so, but it was more so of
like you supported missions, youwere generous, you like you had
gone on some mission tripsyourself and that was something
that was super near and dear tomy heart.
So, um, yeah, so all of that,to say like I totally get that
the more a guy is like, oh lookat all these things I've done,
(35:11):
it's so off but it can be offputting.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
So I'm not going to get into tons of specifics on
the be mysterious, but don'tjust don't like accomplishment
vomit, especially not on thefirst date.
Don't just be like, okay, youknow, if you're going to do that
, you might as well just printoff a resume with every
impressive thing about yourselfand just slide it across the
table, instead of wasting theirtime talking about it the whole
(35:36):
time.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
So I just wonder if it's really more about humility,
because the other thing I thinkof that's a red flag when I
hear mysterious is they'rehiding things and that is like
an intimacy breaker not anintimacy enhancer.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And sometimes.
So.
Here's the terrible thing.
Sometimes a person can behiding things and they come
across as mysterious andtherefore build attraction,
which can be terrible, andtherefore build attraction,
which can be terrible.
And sometimes the person whojust wants to put all their
stuff out there is just eager.
They really like that personand they don't know what else to
(36:14):
say.
Maybe they're nervous, and somen, when they're nervous, may
default to just theaccomplishment vomit.
I'm pretty sure I've done itbefore, not necessarily in a
(36:36):
romantic context, but notknowing what else to say because
I'm in.
You know, sometimes we're goingto find ourselves insecure and
resist the urge as much aspossible.
That's the only thing I can sayto men and women, but
especially men to.
When it comes to beingmysterious, hopefully you're not
hiding things, and I thinkthere's a way to be mysterious
without coming across as hidingthings.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, here's the other thing I'm thinking, if I
think about the study and wherethis point is coming from.
So it was that these women knewthat these men were attractive
but didn't know how the man feltabout them.
So there's kind of this likecat and mouse chase that's
intriguing about it.
So when you were telling meabout the story or the study, my
(37:13):
first thought was, likeespecially on the front end,
when you said they knew thatthese guys found them attractive
.
Okay, now, granted, I have notbeen single for 15 years, so I
have not been in the mindset oflike hoping that someone might
find me attractive and actuallythe opposite.
Like it would be a huge flag, ahuge like get away from me If
(37:37):
someone told me that a guythought I was attractive because
I'm married.
So my first thought when yousaid that was, ooh, I wouldn't
want to know.
And there was kind of a.
There was kind of a little bitof like a stalker-ish feel of
like oh, they've looked at mebut I don't know who they are,
(37:57):
and so that even when you firstsaid it, I was like I don't
really like that, whereas ifit's, you know, we don't know
how he feels about you.
Well, it feels a little bitmore of like an even playing
field and maybe like the guymight not be a crazy stalker.
So I'm wondering maybe not tothat deep of a level, cause I'm
sure these women were single andlike would love a really
(38:17):
attractive guy to find themattractive.
But I also just wonder ifthere's just a sense in the
mysterious part of it's not somuch about hiding things, but
it's about early on in therelationship not being overly
attached, attaching or you know,just not coming on too strong
from the get go which youdefinitely did not do much, to
(38:43):
my frustration.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah.
So you, if you, especially as aman, if you're a known
commodity, then you're a knowncommodity that can be valuable.
You know, if, if a woman issingle, ready to mingle, she
doesn't really feel like wastingtime playing games, especially
(39:06):
in the older crowd 30 plus wherepeople are like, look, that's
all cute, like all that stuff.
But I kind of want to know,does this person want to go
forward or not?
So you, you have to measure itand I think to a tally of the
circumstances.
Don't, in a, in the pursuit ofbeing mysterious, don't, like
(39:27):
ruin something because you'relike oh, I'm not going to tell
you where I stand on whether ornot I like you.
And then she's like okay, well,I don't have time to waste.
Bye.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
It was like wait wait oops so if you liked it, then
you should have put a ring on it, as Beyonce would say A ring
pop.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So, being mysterious, that can mean a lot of
different things.
There's a lot of differentopinions, there's a lot of
different articles on theinternet podcasts, YouTube
videos et cetera.
So I won't belabor that pointtoo much more.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
But you should be ethical.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Well, I think my last point kind of covers that being
considerate and respectful, andI think that kind of caps it
all off.
And I'll get there right afterthis next one, which is being
measured.
So the first s being secure,the a being authentic, the first
m being mysterious and thesecond m being measured.
(40:19):
What I mean by that is don't beover responsive.
That doesn't fall in linecompletely with the young
people's philosophy that if youdouble texture you're quote
unquote cooked.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
That's young people slang for if you have to look
that up.
No, I didn't.
It's unfortunate that.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
I know that if, if, um, if you double text, somebody
like it's, it's, it's over,forget about it.
They're no longer attracted toyou sending two texts in a row.
Yeah, that's kind of like ayoung people.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I send like eight in a row sometimes.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Well, and especially when it's business and it's not
romance or you're married like,we'll double check Well eight
times text each other.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Who cares?
Yeah, I was thinking friends.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
When you're married, it doesn't matter, like you
should be in a healthy enoughmarriage.
You can text that person 18times and hopefully it's not in
the middle of a fight orsomething, because then it's
going to be a push paper, but ifit's just, you know what?
I saw eight memes in a row thatI thought you would like, and I
sent them to you in rapidsuccession.
Who cares?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
That's on Instagram.
I will open my DMs from you toa week's worth yeah, yeah, you
do reels.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
So when you're first like if you and I were first
getting to know each, I wouldn'tdo that.
I'd be like I'll send her oneand I'll wait for a response.
If, uh, if, if you do and again, I know that I keep saying
particularly for the men,because I'm a man and I don't
(41:48):
tend to study from the woman'sperspective but I can tell you
there is a research study outthere, so there's a 2014 study
by Birnbaum GE and he found thatmen who are hyper responsive in
communications are seen aseager to please.
So these men are eager toplease others.
(42:08):
They have weaker character wow,that's such a slap in the face
and they have fewer datingoptions the weaker character
part is particularly hurtful.
If you're a guy who's justresponsive, I I do remember in
my younger years I would behyper responsive.
(42:30):
I thought, well, this is justwhat's polite.
And then I'm like, well, whydon't girls keep talking to me
after months?
Right, so, and the the science,if you will kind of backs up
the principle that and it stinksthat it's a double standard
where men can suffer.
But if you are a man and youare too hyper responsive, it can
(42:54):
hurt you, especially in thebeginning phases as a
relationship is getting to apoint where it's starting to
take off.
The interesting thing is thatit's kind of opposite.
For women, being hyperresponsive was actually to their
favor in the beginning stagesStarting to take off.
The interesting thing is thatit's kind of opposite for women
being hyper responsive wasactually to their favor in the
beginning stages, oddly enough.
Was I hyper responsive?
(43:14):
I don't remember.
I think more research should bedone on the topic and hashed
out and all that and how they goabout setting up all these
research experiments.
I don't fully understand.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I can see it coming across more.
So the bit the first thing yousaid as eager to please, I can
see it coming across as um, thatthe man maybe doesn't have as
much of a backbone, yeah, andanother principle.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
So let's say I text you randomly.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Like now, 14 years into our marriage.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
No, let's say we're at like a two weeks.
We had our first date two weeksago, we had a second date this
past weekend and every morningwhen you wake up, I'm saying
hello, beautiful.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
That'd be a bit much.
I hope you slept well it wouldbe creepy.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
And it's like a paragraph long with emojis and
things Like you just said.
That's a bit much.
Creepy.
Creepy.
Now 14 years of marriage.
I don't do that, but you know.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
You should Perhaps.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
I should.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
That's your challenge .
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Every single morning.
I try.
You know, there was a while,there was a while years ago, I
tried to text you good morning,princess.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
every morning yeah, I think this was also around the
time you downloaded the JustinBieber emojis and it would come.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Those two things complement each other really
well.
Actually, I should get theJustin Bieber emojis.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
And that was before we liked Justin Bieber.
It was when he was still like akid and not when he was
actually good.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
So that was fun.
So being measured, that's notjust how responsive you are as a
man or a woman, that's also, Ithink, going back to reciprocity
, even though it's not thereciprocity principle when it
comes to texting.
And, by the way, you it's notlike, never double text If I
(45:11):
need to correct something in atext and I shoot a second one
out with an asterisk, showingthat autocorrect screwed me,
like it normally does, onsomething Um, and I want to
correct whatever the word was Um.
Or if I want to correctwhatever the word was.
Or if I want to clarify realquick double text or even a
triple text, especially ifthey're in rapid succession and
(45:34):
it's not in a pushy direction,not necessarily a bad thing.
With that being said, if Ishoot you, let's say that good
morning text.
Let's say the scenario I threwout earlier.
Two weeks ago was our firstdate.
We had another date this pastweekend and since the second
date I've been texting you.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
Good morning, princess like every morning,
with a paragraph long stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
So you wake up and you see that and you're like, oh
, Again.
Well, I tell you what I'llrespond to this guy.
But let me, let me get myworkout, some breakfast, a
shower, Bible study, all thethings, and then come noon, you
still haven't responded yet,cause you're just busy and you
forgot and all this.
And so then I there's more.
So then I follow up withsomething else and it's a
(46:21):
paragraph long.
Something else and it's aparagraph long.
Don't do that, that's not beingmeasured.
That's not being measured,that's not being secure,
certainly not mysterious.
So just, and I would even arguethe last point, and I'm going
to roll right into it so S,secure, a authentic, m,
(46:44):
mysterious, m, measured, andthen C, considerate and
respectful.
Doing what I just described ornot being measured can be a lack
of respect.
And notice.
I didn't say when I sayrespectful, I didn't just say to
the other person, to yourselftoo.
You're not being respectful toyourself, you're looking kind of
(47:04):
pathetic.
So don't do that.
And I understand that,especially if someone hasn't
dated for over a decade andthey're going back into the
dating market.
Things are different, they'reconfusing, but just carrying
yourself with a degree of ofdignity and realizing that you
have worth and hopefully you'renot coming out of a relationship
where you felt like you had noworth, right, so being
(47:30):
considerate and respectful.
But that's also beingconsidered respectful, of course
, to the other person too.
It's not considerate to youknow.
Throw up, because I wantsomething from you, because I'm
throwing out these, the goodmorning princess text messages
to you that are like a paragraphlong and the reality is I'm not
(47:51):
sending those to actually makeyou feel good.
Really, I want something inreturn.
I want validation.
Right, I want you to be like ohhow sweet I love you.
And blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, like you know that's,
that's what somebody is wantingin return.
Be considerate and respectfulof that other person and don't
put that on them.
(48:12):
Don't put your hangups and yourinsecurities and don't put all
this emotional responsibility onthem.
Of course that's going to pushthem away.
They want to be in arelationship of equals, not a
codependent relationship wherethey have to constantly reassure
the other person.
So, in a nutshell, the acronymthat I made up 15 minutes before
(48:37):
starting this secure, beingauthentic, true to yourself,
being mysterious, being measured, being considerate.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
You know, I think we could turn that into a word if
we workshopped it a little bit.
I think smack.
We could get to a smack at somepoint.
Talk smack.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Um, I see you've written some things down.
What do you got?
I was writing down possibletakeaways what?
Speaker 2 (49:05):
do you got?
I was writing down possibletakeaways.
What are your key takeawaysfrom the episode?
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Don't listen to respond.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Be smart by talking smack, sorry, we'll get there,
okay, what were you saying?
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Don't listen to respond.
Start from a position ofself-love and self-acceptance
when it comes to security.
That's what I think beingsecure is, and when you're
secure, you're confident.
So start from a position ofself-acceptance and self-love.
I think that's really kind ofthe hack to being secure.
(49:40):
And then don't listen torespond, listen to engage
meaningfully.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
So how do you come from a position of self-love and
self-acceptance?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Well, that's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
It's working on your pies.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yes, yes.
Well, that's a whole notherpodcast.
Um, it's working on your pies,yes, yes.
In a nutshell, that's, that's abig part of it.
I also believe that acceptingoneself where you're at, that
doesn't that's not the same asliking where you're at, but
accepting yourself where you'reat, not just physically,
(50:26):
emotionally, mentally andspiritually also.
Yep.
You look at the reality of agiven thing in your life good,
bad or otherwise and you simplyaccept.
It doesn't mean you have tolike it if it's bad, it doesn't
mean that you don't try andchange it if it's unhealthy, you
just accept this is whatreality is right now.
(50:47):
And when you start acceptingbecause you can't fix that which
you don't acknowledge is aproblem and when you start
accepting the good, the bad andthe ugly, I believe that's where
you really start to truly loveyourself, make changes and
(51:10):
you're confident.
You can look other people inthe eye, because you can look in
the mirror and not beoverwhelmed and repulsed by the
person you see and I'm not justtalking about looks here.
So that's what I got.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
It's a great episode.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Good, good stuff.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Good stuff.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Let's go get dinner at your sister's house.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Okay, that's going to do it until next week.
Stay strong.
Oscar Wilde once said I think what ruins
relationships and causes mostfights is insecurity.
So I'd like to talk about thattoday.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Sounds like a really good episode topic.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Secure communications , but not like encrypting your
communications or using signal.
What's that?
What's that?
Becoming emotionally secure,and from that position of
emotional security we thencommunicate with other people.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Yeah, that is such a big issue that I see even at
Marriage Helper I mean so manymarriage issues we have stem
from insecurities that we thenend up feeling really upset or
hurt based on how someone elsecommunicates with us.
(00:51):
We internalize that we thenfight back with them instead of
having the self-awareness tothink like why, why did that
affect me so much?
Insecurity is.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
I mean how insecurity affects us, then shows, then
affects how we treat otherpeople and the behaviors we end
up having and at marriage helper, you guys even develop smart
contact to help people who areparticularly insecure, as
they're communicating, oftenwith a spouse who wants out of
the marriage yeah, it's a way togive a framework of like here's
(01:21):
how to calm down in yourcommunication, and so we
actually have two versions of it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
There's the one for the marriage in crisis, but then
I also took that version andkind of created a smart
communication.
So there's some changes to someof the acronym that aren't as
crisis focused and are more justgeneral life framework, and
it's just a framework of here'show to communicate in a way that
shows that you are strong andcalm but can also be gentle in
(01:50):
your communication.
And it's huge.
I mean, the way that wecommunicate or the way that we
don't communicate really is theintimacy.
It really makes the biggestdifference in intimacy in a
marriage is is communication andthe ability and the
communication isn't just verbal,it's also nonverbal.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Can we delve into smart contact?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, it's been a minute since I've done the
non-crisis one, so I don't knowthat.
I remember all of that acronymoff the top of my head.
But there's a full podcastepisode where I break it down,
for on it starts with attractionfrom a few years ago and we can
link to that in the show notes.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
We could also just have our producer Jason just
edit that whole episode in righthere right here.
So, starting at the point I'm,talking now, and that'll make
the episode like two hours long.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
But for both of them, as I already said, the premise
is it's a framework that you cankeep in your mind when you are
feeling frustrated or whenyou're feeling like I just need
to reach out.
I do this.
This is me texting Like I justneed to reach out, I need this
person to respond to me.
It's a way to get you to calmdown.
So the first the S is stop thepushes, stop doing the things
(03:04):
that are pushing the otherperson away.
And that's true in every,literally in every communication
that you could get into.
Like you and I have a goodmarriage and there's still times
where we can get mad at eachother and we can get frustrated,
and we can get annoyed andupset and uh and act, you know,
(03:26):
negatively towards the other.
We were so an example, likelast week when you and I were in
Phoenix and, um, the, we hadlike the car play hooked up to
my Apple, to my iPhone, and Idid something on my phone and
the maps went away.
Yeah, and you're in the middleof like I need, in the middle of
you on like I-10 with a ton oftraffic, and so you were like,
(03:48):
get the map back on.
And so I got the map back on.
But then I was like super quietafter that and at some point
you said, at some point you werelike what's wrong?
And I said, well, you couldhave just asked nicely to put to
put the mat back on.
And you said that's not whatyou said.
You said I will do that in thefuture.
(04:12):
And when that happened in thelike the, the days following
that, you were like, hey, canyou get the mat back on?
But all that's to say is likeyou were frustrated in that
moment.
You needed to communicatesomething with me.
What you did, kind of in and ofitself, was a push behavior.
But I could have and I'm notsaying I responded in the
perfect way by just like beingquiet, cause I also could have
(04:34):
spoken up and said like you know, hey, I'll.
You know, yes, let me get thatback up.
But in the future I could havebeen proactive in my ask.
But instead I kind ofstonewalled in a little bit of a
way, which is a push behavior.
But I also could have respondedby saying how dare you speak to
me that way.
Right, that's a push behavior,so it's identifying not the
(04:55):
other person's push behavior,but it's identifying yours.
What are the things that I needto stop doing in this moment,
in this heated conversation, inorder for me to gain calmness
mentally?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
In push behaviors.
It's my understanding thatthose are more than likely their
own podcast episode already.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I mean, yeah, probably.
So there's a lot.
It's anything I mean.
If we want to just summarize it, it is anything you do that
pushes the other person away,whether you intend for that to
happen or not.
So it's not as much about myintention about whether or not
what I'm doing is pushing youaway.
It's about whether you perceiveit as a push.
So my the onus is on me to sayI respect what you see as a push
(05:42):
and I will therefore honor that.
Okay, so that's stoppingpushing the push behavior.
The M stands for manage businessitems.
Now, in smart communication,when we're talking about just
like general framework for goodcommunication, it's manage
(06:03):
expectations, and both of themhold the same underlying concept
, which is a lot of times weenter into conversation
expecting it to go a certain wayor expecting, you know, I might
send you a really mushy textmessage and I expect you to just
(06:24):
ooze back to me all of thethings that you love about me as
well.
But if your response is justokay, yeah, then it's going to
make me angry or it's going tohurt me, right, which could then
affect the next thing I say toyou if I'm not aware of that.
So instead, it's a managerexpectations Don't do something
(06:46):
or say, like if I'm going tosend you a really kind, mushy,
gushy text message that's howmuch I love you and how much I
appreciate you Well, myexpectation should be that I'm
not expecting to get anythingback.
I'm doing it truly because Iit's not because I'm trying to
seek something from you, it'sbecause I want to give something
(07:06):
to you, and so I'm wanting togive you this really kind word.
Then, even if you say okay,well, I've managed that
expectation, so now I'm notgoing to get upset, right, yeah,
so that's the M.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
So in crisis it's managed business items.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
And that part is in and it's still in.
It still goes right in linewith managed expectations.
But we called it managedbusiness items because we were
saying if you can't talk withoutfighting, then don't talk about
the things you're fightingabout right now.
Find the things that you thatare kind of the new, the
Switzerland, the neutral ground,and use that as your baseline
(07:48):
for rebuilding positivecommunication.
So, like you and I, sometimeswhen we get in disagreements we
end up changing the subject tosomething like that both of us
just generally enjoy talkingabout.
Maybe it's travel, Like maybewe're fighting over here in this
part of our lives because wecan't agree on whatever, but we
(08:10):
can always agree on loving totravel, or what movie to see, or
what food we might want to goeat, right, so talk about those
things.
When marriages are in crisis,it may even go a step further
down, which is like talk abouthow the kids are doing at school
, talk about the soccer game oryou know, just like share things
(08:30):
that are just not emotional anduse that as your opportunity to
reset a positive communicationflow between the two of you so
that you can end up becausehere's the goal you want to,
just if you can't talk withoutfighting, then you need to find
things you can talk aboutwithout fighting and only talk
about those things so that youwon't fight, and then trust will
(08:53):
start being rebuilt, that I canhave a conversation with this
person and it's not going toturn crazy, and then you build
from there.
That's the whole mindset behindit.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
It reminds me of the episode of big bang theory where
Leonard tells Penny he lovesher and she wasn't ready for
that yet and because she didn'treciprocate by saying it, he
kept whether subtly and he wouldjust like get back at it and
eventually she dumped him, yeah,cause she couldn't take it
anymore.
He was being pushy, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
He had these push behaviors where he would like
bring it up.
He didn't manage hisexpectations, because he's
clearly said it, expecting herto say it back.
Well, she didn't.
And then that affected thewhole cycle to continue
happening and instead of justmoving on, he he kept on right.
So that's a great example of it.
(09:47):
And going back to what westarted out and talking about
insecurity, I mean it's not justfighting or disagreements that
can lead to this.
If there's one spouse who'sjust so clingy and needy, or one
person like maybe it's a datingrelationship, if someone's just
so clingy and needy, that's apush behavior.
And then so like, if that wereme and I'm just like needing you
(10:12):
to pay attention to me, well, Iwill, maybe I'll text you,
maybe I'll call you.
If you don't answer, maybe I'llsend you.
What are you doing?
You know why aren't youanswering me and that anxious
energy is just going to ooze offof me and my expectation is
going to be that you're going tosoothe me.
So I haven't managed myexpectation and if I do sue you.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
That could set us up for a codependent relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So that ends up like feeding this cycle and so, like
the push behavior.
It's a little ironic in thissituation because my push
behavior, which does push youaway, but I'm trying to pull you
towards me, but I'm counter,like it's working against itself
.
So then I want you to do thatand then, when you don't, it
further facilitates me trying topull you towards me and try, in
(11:00):
a bad way, trying to be likewhat else can I do to try and
get his attention?
And so I just keep pulling outall the stops.
It's like kids and this iswhere we learn it, where the
it's like separation, anxietyand young children.
Well, when they're scared thattheir main caregiver, when
they're scared that their maincaregiver might leave them, they
begin to act out more and moreand more because they think if I
(11:23):
can just get their attentionit'll break their heart enough
that they won't leave me, likeyou're trying to pull on those
heartstrings of a mother who'strying to walk out the door.
And so that's where it's thisbuilt in, like mindset that we
had as children, kind of goinginto attachment theory.
For people who didn't have thatsecure attachment with a parent
(11:45):
or in early romanticrelationships, they might be
more prone to be needy andinsecure in their communication
with a romantic partner, whichthen can lead to this, to this
kind of flow.
And then there's the other sideof it, which avoidance is just
(12:05):
as much insecurity as anxiety,so you can also just ignore
someone out of your owninsecurity as well, which again
doesn't lead to that's verycommon in modern era ghosting
and things or people who take along time to reply, which may be
appropriate We'll talk aboutthat in a bit but the A so the A
(12:30):
is to allow the other person torespond, so you want to make
space for conversation to happen.
And then the R is for you torespond back in a way that is
empathetic, that is strong andcalm and gentle.
So it's really and this is kindof the part of communication
(12:52):
most people think about there'sa sender and there's a receiver,
but then there's the receiverback to the sender.
Right, Communication isn't justone way.
You have to know that thatmessage got to the other person.
Well, that's what the A and theR are for.
So I'm providing space for youto reply to me and then, after
your reply and I'm listening,one of the things we were taught
(13:13):
in therapy school, like in mymaster's program for therapy,
was, if you are thinking aboutyour response, of what you're
going to say to someone, asthey're talking, you are not
listening, and so it's actuallya sign of deep respect and like
showing that you're intentlylistening, that when a person's
done for you to say I need timeto process, to think about my
(13:36):
next, like what I want to sayback to you you don't have to
say, you don't have to haveanything queued up, you can have
a pause in between sentencesfrom two people, and and that's
good.
So I want to listen to what youhave to say and I want to truly
understand it.
I want to, even if I, andespecially if I disagree not
(13:57):
even if I disagree, especiallywhen I disagree I want to really
then understand your side andwhy you're coming at it from the
perspective you're coming fromit at, and then I will.
Then the onus is on me onceagain to respond back to you and
continue that conversation in away that shows respect and care
and empathy.
Feels like the completeopposite of defensiveness, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
As close as.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Defensiveness shuts every communication down.
Defensiveness, stonewalling,criticism, contempt those four
horsemen that Gottman talksabout.
They just shut downcommunication and they shut down
intimacy.
So true intimacy is found notjust in the bedroom, but in the
(14:51):
mental and emotional connectionfrom seeking to understand the
other person.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Well, and you talked about intimacy in the bedroom
for for especially women and Ithink men struggle to grasp this
for women, the intimacy thatwill lead to intimacy in the
bedroom starts.
So I've heard sex therapistssay you know the preceding 24
hours before sex.
I think it's much more thanthat.
(15:18):
It could be years, it could bedecades, but you know what can
you control.
And the intimacy that you knowprecedes sex is of the absolute,
utmost importance, you know,for men to understand that
that's what women need.
Going into that, what's the T?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Take it one day at a time, meaning not every
conversation is going to beperfect, not every day is going
to have the perfectconversations, but you can wake
up tomorrow and try again.
Now, my favorite thing is whenpeople ask and I get this all
the time, it never fails.
(16:02):
If I'm doing a webinar, I'mtalking about smart contact or
anything, or smart communicationand people say, well, I've been
trying that and it's notworking.
And I love that questionbecause it's an, it's a teaching
opportunity and a chance for meto like correct some, some
incorrect thoughts.
There's no way this doesn'twork now, because this is the
(16:26):
framework for healthycommunication period.
Look at the research, look atthe psychology.
We've just boiled this downinto things that are simple to
understand and execute on.
But now what someone may besaying is well, I've been doing
this, but the other person isstill ignoring me, acting a fool
, whatever.
Okay, but you can't controlthem.
(16:48):
And even if you try and changeyour communication to try and
control them, for them torespond in the way that you want
them to, well then we're backat a push behavior.
You're trying to control andforce someone to do something
that they aren't naturally doingon their own, and so that's not
the way to look at it.
We have to take ownership andrealize the only person I can
(17:13):
control is me.
I could do smart contactperfectly.
You still have the free will tobe a complete jerk if you want
to.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I will exercise that free will.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
But I also have the choice of whether I'm going to
fall to your level or if I'mgoing to raise my standard of
myself.
Yeah, and that's the choice allof us get to make.
And there's some trying peoplein the world Friends, neighbors,
family members.
Yes, I feel like everyone hasthe crazy Thanksgiving family
(17:49):
member that they dread seeing,especially after elections,
especially after elections,especially after elections.
And so all of us have thosepeople in our lives that we're
like oh, I just want to givethem a piece of my mind, I just
want to whatever.
But if you want to have ahealthy relationship with
someone smart, relationship withsomeone smart, being smart
(18:18):
about your communication is theonly way for you to interact in
that relationship to where itwill be healthy.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
I wanted to get into, so we've we've talked about
kind of established relationshipcommunications.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
And did you know about?
Did you know about smartcontact before you?
I mean, I know you knew theterm.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I knew the term.
You had never heard me talkabout it.
I've probably Well, here's thething I may have overheard you
giving a webinar one day, yeah,like over the years.
But as far as doing a deep dive, I could use a refresher.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
So this is like my opportunity to have you as a
captive audience.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Is there a quiz to make sure I've memorized
everything?
So we've talked about, you know, committed and established
relationships, marriage, eitherone that's in crisis or one
that's kind of in a healthy spot.
I want to switch gears, and sowe have a diverse audience.
(19:17):
The majority of our audience ismarried, but not everybody, or
it may be the unfortunate factthat some people are either
recently divorced or theythey're about to be, and so I
want to switch into, switchgears to to dating,
communications as well as kindof an.
(19:41):
You know this is a.
I made up the etiquette, if youwill.
But some etiquette and generalprinciples, and it's funny that
you know we talked about SMARTand I actually cover.
I made my own little acronym,sammc, s-a-m-m-c.
It stands for being secureemotionally, so not like
(20:06):
encrypting your text messages,we don't care about that.
Being authentic is the A, beingtrue to yourself.
Being authentic is the A.
Being true to yourself, beingmysterious, that's the first M.
Being measured, so like howresponsive are you?
That's the second M, and thenbeing considerate, and I would
(20:28):
also add respectful to the C.
So SAM, s-a-m-m-c is theacronym I came up with, which I
think kind of covers some of thesmart on some level.
So if you do find yourself in asetting where you're single
especially if you are single,like recently, single again and
(20:52):
you're in your thirties orforties, or or higher, no shame
in being older and then havingto reenter the dating market.
There's a lot of reasons thatcan happen.
I'm not going to make anyassumptions or judgments against
you.
You may have noticed, though,that if, if you are older and
you're reentering even those ofus in our 30s, like if somebody
(21:15):
jumps back in there's datingapps.
There's more social media, sothere's direct messages,
instagram or Facebook.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Yes, we started messaging each other on Facebook
.
We did.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Back in the day.
So there's all these things andthen texting and stuff.
So communication has become this24, seven thing when we compare
it to a hundred years agopeople would write letters, you
could make a phone call, but youhad to stay in a stationary
spot to do so and I and I lovethat.
(21:53):
Back then people understood inperson is the king of all
communications.
Just get to be in person, whichI still think we lose sight of
that in the modern era.
So so I would say that the goal, the, the ultimate goal in all
your communications should be atleast my personal opinion is
(22:13):
try to get face-to-face timewith each other.
Understood that you know,long-term or a long, I'm sorry,
long-distance relationship mightbe a little harder.
I don't love long-distancerelationships.
I can't tell people don't dothem.
Because you and I kind of didone when we first started dating
.
We were six hours apart but westill understood face-to-face
time like we did it as often aswe could?
(22:36):
yeah, you're driving six hours,six hour drive twice, I'd roll
in at two and three am, whichwas totally against the rules
for the army at certain nights,to you know, before flying and
stuff.
So let's start with the firstone being being secure.
I mean, what does that evenmean?
You know, what does that meanto you?
Speaker 2 (22:55):
To be secure For a man to be secure, for me to be
emotionally secure.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Both, both men and women.
Well, okay, it may lookdifferent, but I think it's
important for both.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
I believe being emotionally secure means that
you're not dependent on anotherperson for your self-esteem or
confidence.
So it's that shift from I don'tknow how I would live without
you to I'd be okay if I had tolive without you, and not
because you don't want and notbecause you would want something
to happen to that person, butbecause it's just this shift in
you of I'd be sad but I wouldmake it.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
I feel that one of the great enemies of what you
just said is a they're the onementality.
So, when putting quotationmarks, they're the one.
I found the one this person'smy soulmate they're this is it.
This is the one, this is theperson.
I feel that that mindset can bethe enemy of security in many
ways, because when things startto go sideways and you're like
well this, this is my person.
I feel that that mindset can bethe enemy of security in many
(23:52):
ways, because when things startto go sideways and you're like,
well, this, this is my personyou know, I've only known them
for two weeks, but they're theone, and that happens all the
time, because limerence cancatch you quick and it can do
all kinds of things to you.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Well, and I don't think that it's always because
someone's saying this is theperfect person.
I think it's a fear of beingabandoned.
So, like going back to thecause of the insecurity.
It's like maybe theyexperienced divorce of their
parents or some kind of traumain early on in their life that
has led to them and theirvulnerability is.
(24:25):
I'm so scared of being alone.
So it's not even as much aboutputting this other person on a
pedestal, as much as it is likeI can't bear the thought of not
being good enough that someonewould want to leave me.
So therefore, you like, for myown mental health and
self-esteem, I need you to wantme.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
So the second.
So the first item being secure,being emotionally secure, that
can look like a lot of differentthings.
There's, there's a huge laundrylist of what it doesn't look
like.
Some of that's kind ofintuitive though, and what I
think, what you just described.
So the second item, the A beingauthentic or true to yourself.
(25:06):
So in a way, you know, for menour humor is a part of our
dating market value.
If you will, if you have acorny sense of dad humor, just
go with it.
Not everyone's going toappreciate it.
In fact, it is going to totallyland face first with some
(25:26):
people.
They'll be like what?
Or they won't get it, orwhatever.
That's fine.
They'll be like what?
Or they won't get it orwhatever, that's fine.
You know whether it's your brandof humor, your brand of
(25:47):
communication style, even downto things like you just don't
capitalize letters or useperiods or any punctuation.
that would drive me crazy, butfor some people that's just, you
know, not putting on a fakeself.
When you communicate, you'renot putting on a fake self.
Yeah, when you communicate,you're not.
You're not putting on a fakeself, You're just being yourself
, because you can put on a maskfor a little while to impress
someone.
You can even.
You know, some people arereally good at figuring out okay
, that person's going to likethat other kind of person.
(26:07):
I can become that kind ofperson.
I can become an actor.
I can mimic that, but you can'tmimic that forever and there's
going to come a point where thefacade just has to fall off.
Hopefully you're not married bythe time that happens, cause
(26:27):
that could be epic in a terribleway.
So, um, being authentic, beingtrue to yourself, that's not the
same as if you are just asarcastic, kind of rude, brash
person, just being like, ah,this is who.
I am.
Just going to put that outthere.
If there is something that areasonable person would look at
(26:48):
and say that's not healthy, Iwould say don't make an excuse
and be like, oh, I'm being trueto myself.
I used to do that.
There were, there were a lot ofantisocial, rude or abrasive
behaviors that I had that Idon't think were healthy or good
for myself or other people, andI would use the excuse as just
(27:11):
who I am.
People just have to accept me,you know, being a big jerk
wherever I go, and I'm glad Ichanged my mindset on that.
So we covered the S, beingsecure.
We covered the A, beingauthentic and true to yourself.
So the first M mysterious.
You have to have mystery.
(27:33):
Smooth as caramel you have touse a deeper voice or it won't
be mysterious.
So there's a principle in thepsychological community called
the reciprocity principle.
Are you familiar?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Reciprocity principle .
Speaker 1 (27:49):
The reciprocity principle, particularly when it
comes to attraction.
It states more or less the waythey set up the experiment was
that there was a group of womenexamining men from a lead fake
Facebook profiles that theythought were real.
All the men were attractive, sothey already had that kind of
(28:13):
stabilizing factor there.
The there were some men thatthey would look at and they
would be told by the researchersthat those men thought that
they, that they were told thosemen.
Those men looked at theirprofiles and those men thought
that they, the women, wereattractive.
So the psychologist wanted togauge well, what do you think
about these guys?
(28:33):
They think you're attractive.
So then there were some theynever had a group that was like,
oh, you're ugly, okay.
So thankfully they weren't meanenough to do that.
They said, but then there was agroup that's like, eh, they're,
they're kind of meh, they thinkyou're so-so.
And then there was a groupwhere they were like we don't
know.
They didn't say we just don'tknow if they're attracted to you
(28:56):
or not.
The group where there wasuncertainty got the women's
attention a lot more.
And bear in mind, all these menare approximately similar in
physical attraction andappearance.
I don't know how they measuredthat and made sure of that.
But that's what I read aboutthat psychological experiment.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
It was just Chris Hemsworth and his brothers.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah it was just the Hemsworth guys.
Maybe add in like Henry Cavillor something.
Yeah, it was just the Hemsworthguys.
Um, maybe add in like HenryCavill or something.
Yeah, so the the group, as youcan imagine, the group that they
were like oh, this guy, he sawyour profile, he likes you.
Of course they had relativelypositive feelings about their
dad.
They were like okay, yeah welike him too.
But but and of course, the guyswho were like hey, you're so, so
(29:41):
they're like.
I forget those guys.
But the guys that they werelike you know, we don't know
what they think about you, whichwe just don't know.
They didn't say we can't, wecan't figure it out.
Those ones captured so muchmore brain space in the women
Cause, then they were wonderingwell, do they like me or not?
So, being mysterious isn't Idon't, I don't, you know it's.
(30:06):
It's ironic for me to give adefinition because I am not,
like Mr Mysterious.
With that being said, I dothink there's the general
principle that if you go on afirst date or a second date, or
you're in the especially thebeginning of the dating phase
and you sit down with the otherperson and we talked about this-
(30:33):
earlier where you mentioned, ifyou're trying to formulate your
response and the and let's sayyou're a man and you're just
like oh yeah, I have an MBA, Ihave a, I work in finance and,
by the way, I'm six foot fiveand all these things and I drive
a whatever car kind of braggingor listing.
Because men, we know, we knowinnately that status,
(30:59):
performance, competence and allthose things are generally
attractive.
So a technique many men use isjust spit all that out on the
table, Like just put it all outthere on the first or second
date.
Maybe use subtlety, Maybe don'teven use subtlety, Maybe just
throw it all out there.
But either way it's almost likean accomplishment vomit that we
(31:21):
just kind of and many women arerepulsed not by the
achievements, it's not like thewoman's repulsed by the fact
that you have a higher educationdegree or whatever, that's how
he talks about it.
It's the way you go abouttalking about it and you know
the recommendation from mostauthors on the topic, as well as
psychological studies that helpsupport a lot of the literature
(31:44):
or the books, is more of a slowdrip thing.
And the more your prospectivemate date whomever finds out
through third parties who speakrelatively well of you the
better.
You can't always set that up up, nor should you try and
(32:05):
engineer that, but if it happens, it happened.
Let's say a mutual friend islike oh yeah, he has an mba, you
didn't know that uh, somebodywhen you and I first started
dating, people were like buthold on.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
The backstory is too, though.
Like the backstory part of thisis too is I had date.
I was dating a guy who was apathological liar, so he was the
one who was like oh, I've donethis and my family has a house
on nantucket and we're friendswith tommy hillfiger, or maybe
(32:39):
it was ralph lauren, it doesn'tmatter.
Both of them were lies or I'vebeen to africa on this, like
yeah.
I'm like.
I'm like the executive he waslike 20.
He's like I'm the executivedirector of this nonprofit and
it was ridiculous, right Like.
So it wasn't just that he wasnot humble and not mysterious,
but he was also a liar, so thatwas this other part of it.
(32:59):
So then, and I knew I needed tobreak up with them, I was just,
I don't know, insecure, I guess.
And so then you come along, orcome back along, because we knew
each other as kids and you showup on my Facebook feed and we
had like gone to the samecollege and my friends knew you,
and so it was my friends when Iwas like oh, I'm talking to the
(33:21):
you know this Rob Holmes guy,and they were like oh, rob
Holmes, he's such a good guy,you should totally date him.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I fooled them.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
He, and then they said all these things about you
and I was like, ooh, so the factthat it was coming from trusted
sources who knew theinformation to be true and they
were sharing it about you?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
And apparently I had made a donation to another
friend to go on a mission tripthat I thought the kicker I
thought it was anonymous, like Iand your bestie.
I guess she saw his because youcan see other people on the
trip's balance, I guess in someportal, and she saw I go from
(34:03):
zero to fully paid, likeovernight, and I guess she
figured out a way to get on thebackend and I don't know if I'm
not a tech guy and she saw thatI did it and I thought it was
anonymous and somehow she foundout that I had fully paid for my
buddy's trip and then turnaround and told you yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
That was like the carrot, it was, that was like
the big thing.
And I was like, oh, and itwasn't even that you would pay.
It wasn't about like you havingmoney, it was more, it was
about what you did not.
You had more than most collegestudents because ROTC paid you.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
Well, I graduated and was working.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Right, and this is 2009, so, but it was more so of
like you supported missions, youwere generous, you like you had
gone on some mission tripsyourself and that was something
that was super near and dear tomy heart.
So, um, yeah, so all of that,to say like I totally get that
the more a guy is like, oh lookat all these things I've done,
(35:11):
it's so off but it can be offputting.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
So I'm not going to get into tons of specifics on
the be mysterious, but don'tjust don't like accomplishment
vomit, especially not on thefirst date.
Don't just be like, okay, youknow, if you're going to do that
, you might as well just printoff a resume with every
impressive thing about yourselfand just slide it across the
table, instead of wasting theirtime talking about it the whole
(35:36):
time.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
So I just wonder if it's really more about humility,
because the other thing I thinkof that's a red flag when I
hear mysterious is they'rehiding things and that is like
an intimacy breaker not anintimacy enhancer.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And sometimes.
So.
Here's the terrible thing.
Sometimes a person can behiding things and they come
across as mysterious andtherefore build attraction,
which can be terrible, andtherefore build attraction,
which can be terrible.
And sometimes the person whojust wants to put all their
stuff out there is just eager.
They really like that personand they don't know what else to
(36:14):
say.
Maybe they're nervous, and somen, when they're nervous, may
default to just theaccomplishment vomit.
I'm pretty sure I've done itbefore, not necessarily in a
(36:36):
romantic context, but notknowing what else to say because
I'm in.
You know, sometimes we're goingto find ourselves insecure and
resist the urge as much aspossible.
That's the only thing I can sayto men and women, but
especially men to.
When it comes to beingmysterious, hopefully you're not
hiding things, and I thinkthere's a way to be mysterious
without coming across as hidingthings.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, here's the other thing I'm thinking, if I
think about the study and wherethis point is coming from.
So it was that these women knewthat these men were attractive
but didn't know how the man feltabout them.
So there's kind of this likecat and mouse chase that's
intriguing about it.
So when you were telling meabout the story or the study, my
(37:13):
first thought was, likeespecially on the front end,
when you said they knew thatthese guys found them attractive
.
Okay, now, granted, I have notbeen single for 15 years, so I
have not been in the mindset oflike hoping that someone might
find me attractive and actuallythe opposite.
Like it would be a huge flag, ahuge like get away from me If
(37:37):
someone told me that a guythought I was attractive because
I'm married.
So my first thought when yousaid that was, ooh, I wouldn't
want to know.
And there was kind of a.
There was kind of a little bitof like a stalker-ish feel of
like oh, they've looked at mebut I don't know who they are,
(37:57):
and so that even when you firstsaid it, I was like I don't
really like that, whereas ifit's, you know, we don't know
how he feels about you.
Well, it feels a little bitmore of like an even playing
field and maybe like the guymight not be a crazy stalker.
So I'm wondering maybe not tothat deep of a level, cause I'm
sure these women were single andlike would love a really
(38:17):
attractive guy to find themattractive.
But I also just wonder ifthere's just a sense in the
mysterious part of it's not somuch about hiding things, but
it's about early on in therelationship not being overly
attached, attaching or you know,just not coming on too strong
from the get go which youdefinitely did not do much, to
(38:43):
my frustration.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah.
So you, if you, especially as aman, if you're a known
commodity, then you're a knowncommodity that can be valuable.
You know, if, if a woman issingle, ready to mingle, she
doesn't really feel like wastingtime playing games, especially
(39:06):
in the older crowd 30 plus wherepeople are like, look, that's
all cute, like all that stuff.
But I kind of want to know,does this person want to go
forward or not?
So you, you have to measure itand I think to a tally of the
circumstances.
Don't, in a, in the pursuit ofbeing mysterious, don't, like
(39:27):
ruin something because you'relike oh, I'm not going to tell
you where I stand on whether ornot I like you.
And then she's like okay, well,I don't have time to waste.
Bye.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
It was like wait wait oops so if you liked it, then
you should have put a ring on it, as Beyonce would say A ring
pop.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
So, being mysterious, that can mean a lot of
different things.
There's a lot of differentopinions, there's a lot of
different articles on theinternet podcasts, YouTube
videos et cetera.
So I won't belabor that pointtoo much more.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
But you should be ethical.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Well, I think my last point kind of covers that being
considerate and respectful, andI think that kind of caps it
all off.
And I'll get there right afterthis next one, which is being
measured.
So the first s being secure,the a being authentic, the first
m being mysterious and thesecond m being measured.
(40:19):
What I mean by that is don't beover responsive.
That doesn't fall in linecompletely with the young
people's philosophy that if youdouble texture you're quote
unquote cooked.
Speaker 3 (40:30):
That's young people slang for if you have to look
that up.
No, I didn't.
It's unfortunate that.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
I know that if, if, um, if you double text, somebody
like it's, it's, it's over,forget about it.
They're no longer attracted toyou sending two texts in a row.
Yeah, that's kind of like ayoung people.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I send like eight in a row sometimes.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Well, and especially when it's business and it's not
romance or you're married like,we'll double check Well eight
times text each other.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Who cares?
Yeah, I was thinking friends.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
When you're married, it doesn't matter, like you
should be in a healthy enoughmarriage.
You can text that person 18times and hopefully it's not in
the middle of a fight orsomething, because then it's
going to be a push paper, but ifit's just, you know what?
I saw eight memes in a row thatI thought you would like, and I
sent them to you in rapidsuccession.
Who cares?
Speaker 2 (41:19):
That's on Instagram.
I will open my DMs from you toa week's worth yeah, yeah, you
do reels.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
So when you're first like if you and I were first
getting to know each, I wouldn'tdo that.
I'd be like I'll send her oneand I'll wait for a response.
If, uh, if, if you do and again, I know that I keep saying
particularly for the men,because I'm a man and I don't
(41:48):
tend to study from the woman'sperspective but I can tell you
there is a research study outthere, so there's a 2014 study
by Birnbaum GE and he found thatmen who are hyper responsive in
communications are seen aseager to please.
So these men are eager toplease others.
(42:08):
They have weaker character wow,that's such a slap in the face
and they have fewer datingoptions the weaker character
part is particularly hurtful.
If you're a guy who's justresponsive, I I do remember in
my younger years I would behyper responsive.
(42:30):
I thought, well, this is justwhat's polite.
And then I'm like, well, whydon't girls keep talking to me
after months?
Right, so, and the the science,if you will kind of backs up
the principle that and it stinksthat it's a double standard
where men can suffer.
But if you are a man and youare too hyper responsive, it can
(42:54):
hurt you, especially in thebeginning phases as a
relationship is getting to apoint where it's starting to
take off.
The interesting thing is thatit's kind of opposite.
For women, being hyperresponsive was actually to their
favor in the beginning stagesStarting to take off.
The interesting thing is thatit's kind of opposite for women
being hyper responsive wasactually to their favor in the
beginning stages, oddly enough.
Was I hyper responsive?
(43:14):
I don't remember.
I think more research should bedone on the topic and hashed
out and all that and how they goabout setting up all these
research experiments.
I don't fully understand.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I can see it coming across more.
So the bit the first thing yousaid as eager to please, I can
see it coming across as um, thatthe man maybe doesn't have as
much of a backbone, yeah, andanother principle.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
So let's say I text you randomly.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Like now, 14 years into our marriage.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
No, let's say we're at like a two weeks.
We had our first date two weeksago, we had a second date this
past weekend and every morningwhen you wake up, I'm saying
hello, beautiful.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
That'd be a bit much.
I hope you slept well it wouldbe creepy.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
And it's like a paragraph long with emojis and
things Like you just said.
That's a bit much.
Creepy.
Creepy.
Now 14 years of marriage.
I don't do that, but you know.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
You should Perhaps.
Speaker 1 (44:21):
I should.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
That's your challenge .
Speaker 1 (44:23):
Every single morning.
I try.
You know, there was a while,there was a while years ago, I
tried to text you good morning,princess.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
every morning yeah, I think this was also around the
time you downloaded the JustinBieber emojis and it would come.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Those two things complement each other really
well.
Actually, I should get theJustin Bieber emojis.
Speaker 2 (44:42):
And that was before we liked Justin Bieber.
It was when he was still like akid and not when he was
actually good.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
So that was fun.
So being measured, that's notjust how responsive you are as a
man or a woman, that's also, Ithink, going back to reciprocity
, even though it's not thereciprocity principle when it
comes to texting.
And, by the way, you it's notlike, never double text If I
(45:11):
need to correct something in atext and I shoot a second one
out with an asterisk, showingthat autocorrect screwed me,
like it normally does, onsomething Um, and I want to
correct whatever the word was Um.
Or if I want to correctwhatever the word was.
Or if I want to clarify realquick double text or even a
triple text, especially ifthey're in rapid succession and
(45:34):
it's not in a pushy direction,not necessarily a bad thing.
With that being said, if Ishoot you, let's say that good
morning text.
Let's say the scenario I threwout earlier.
Two weeks ago was our firstdate.
We had another date this pastweekend and since the second
date I've been texting you.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
Good morning, princess like every morning,
with a paragraph long stuff.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
So you wake up and you see that and you're like, oh
, Again.
Well, I tell you what I'llrespond to this guy.
But let me, let me get myworkout, some breakfast, a
shower, Bible study, all thethings, and then come noon, you
still haven't responded yet,cause you're just busy and you
forgot and all this.
And so then I there's more.
So then I follow up withsomething else and it's a
(46:21):
paragraph long.
Something else and it's aparagraph long.
Don't do that, that's not beingmeasured.
That's not being measured,that's not being secure,
certainly not mysterious.
So just, and I would even arguethe last point, and I'm going
to roll right into it so S,secure, a authentic, m,
(46:44):
mysterious, m, measured, andthen C, considerate and
respectful.
Doing what I just described ornot being measured can be a lack
of respect.
And notice.
I didn't say when I sayrespectful, I didn't just say to
the other person, to yourselftoo.
You're not being respectful toyourself, you're looking kind of
(47:04):
pathetic.
So don't do that.
And I understand that,especially if someone hasn't
dated for over a decade andthey're going back into the
dating market.
Things are different, they'reconfusing, but just carrying
yourself with a degree of ofdignity and realizing that you
have worth and hopefully you'renot coming out of a relationship
where you felt like you had noworth, right, so being
(47:30):
considerate and respectful.
But that's also beingconsidered respectful, of course
, to the other person too.
It's not considerate to youknow.
Throw up, because I wantsomething from you, because I'm
throwing out these, the goodmorning princess text messages
to you that are like a paragraphlong and the reality is I'm not
(47:51):
sending those to actually makeyou feel good.
Really, I want something inreturn.
I want validation.
Right, I want you to be like ohhow sweet I love you.
And blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, like you know that's,
that's what somebody is wantingin return.
Be considerate and respectfulof that other person and don't
put that on them.
(48:12):
Don't put your hangups and yourinsecurities and don't put all
this emotional responsibility onthem.
Of course that's going to pushthem away.
They want to be in arelationship of equals, not a
codependent relationship wherethey have to constantly reassure
the other person.
So, in a nutshell, the acronymthat I made up 15 minutes before
(48:37):
starting this secure, beingauthentic, true to yourself,
being mysterious, being measured, being considerate.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
You know, I think we could turn that into a word if
we workshopped it a little bit.
I think smack.
We could get to a smack at somepoint.
Talk smack.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
Um, I see you've written some things down.
What do you got?
I was writing down possibletakeaways what?
Speaker 2 (49:05):
do you got?
I was writing down possibletakeaways.
What are your key takeawaysfrom the episode?
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Don't listen to respond.
Speaker 2 (49:12):
Be smart by talking smack, sorry, we'll get there,
okay, what were you saying?
Speaker 1 (49:18):
Don't listen to respond.
Start from a position ofself-love and self-acceptance
when it comes to security.
That's what I think beingsecure is, and when you're
secure, you're confident.
So start from a position ofself-acceptance and self-love.
I think that's really kind ofthe hack to being secure.
(49:40):
And then don't listen torespond, listen to engage
meaningfully.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
So how do you come from a position of self-love and
self-acceptance?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Well, that's a whole nother podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
It's working on your pies.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yes, yes.
Well, that's a whole notherpodcast.
Um, it's working on your pies,yes, yes.
In a nutshell, that's, that's abig part of it.
I also believe that acceptingoneself where you're at, that
doesn't that's not the same asliking where you're at, but
accepting yourself where you'reat, not just physically,
(50:26):
emotionally, mentally andspiritually also.
Yep.
You look at the reality of agiven thing in your life good,
bad or otherwise and you simplyaccept.
It doesn't mean you have tolike it if it's bad, it doesn't
mean that you don't try andchange it if it's unhealthy, you
just accept this is whatreality is right now.
(50:47):
And when you start acceptingbecause you can't fix that which
you don't acknowledge is aproblem and when you start
accepting the good, the bad andthe ugly, I believe that's where
you really start to truly loveyourself, make changes and
(51:10):
you're confident.
You can look other people inthe eye, because you can look in
the mirror and not beoverwhelmed and repulsed by the
person you see and I'm not justtalking about looks here.
So that's what I got.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
It's a great episode.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Good, good stuff.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Good stuff.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
Let's go get dinner at your sister's house.
Speaker 2 (51:41):
Okay, that's going to do it until next week.
Stay strong.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.