February 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Have a question you want answered? Submit it here!
Want to unlock your potential? Discover how to study smarter and retain more information with expert insights from Dr. Dan Willingham! Tune in now and transform your learning experience!
Your Host: Kimberly Beam Holmes, Expert in Self-Improvement and Relationships
Kimberly Beam Holmes has applied her master's degree in psychology for over ten years, acting as the CEO of Marriage Helper & CEO and Creator of PIES University, being a wife and mother herself, and researching how attraction affects relationships. Her videos, podcasts, and following reach over 500,000 people a month who are making changes and becoming the best they can be.
🔗 Website: https://itstartswithattraction.com
📱 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimberlybeamholmes
👀 TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@kimberlybeamholmes
Follow our other channels!
📺 https://youtube.com/@UC7gCCAhhQvD3MBpKpI_4g6w
📺 https://youtube.com/@UCEOibktrLPG4ufxidR8I4UQ
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Today I'm speaking with Dr Dan Willingham.
He is a renowned cognitivepsychologist and he's a
professor of psychology at theUniversity of Virginia.
He has done significant work inthe areas of learning and in
memory and he's written manybooks for educators on how they
can help students that theyteach to learn better and to do
(00:22):
better in school.
But he actually has a book outnow called Outsmart your Brain.
That's written more for theolder student, so this is
definitely something for yourhigh schoolers, college aged
kids or if you are currentlygoing through a master's degree
or a PhD.
You're definitely going to findvalue of his new book.
But what we talk about today isapplicable to anyone who wants
(00:45):
to learn more or to learn better, or if you're in a career where
you feel like you might bestuck and maybe it's because you
are lacking in something that,if you learned it that it would
be a major help for you.
Let's dive into today's episode.
Thank you so much for being onwith me today, dr Dan Willingham
.
How are you?
I'm well.
(01:06):
Thanks, I hope you are.
I am, I'm doing well.
Thank you very much.
So you have done several booksthat have focused around this
concept of how to help peopleI'll say it from my perspective
learn better or just be able toretain information better, and
your newest book that you haveout is called Outsmart your
(01:27):
Brain, and that's really what Iwant to ask you a lot of
questions about today.
But before we dive into that,what got you started in this
line of work and in this line ofresearch?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, and my particular line of work is
actually pretty odd given mybackground.
So I started life as a basicscientist.
I went to graduate school andmy work was on learning and
memory.
But I was at the intersectionof experimental psychology and
(01:59):
neuroscience and I was workingon problems that are really
pretty technical.
And I joke in the book.
There's a very old joke amongpeople with PhDs like you get
your PhD and you tell yourparents about it all proud and
then they tell their friends,yeah, my son's a doctor, but not
the type of doctor who helpsanybody.
And I sort of did that onebetter.
(02:21):
I was.
I studied learning but Icouldn't really help you learn
anything.
That was what my work was like.
I did that for about 10 yearsand then, sort of just by
happenstance, because I knowsomebody here in town, I was
invited to give a talk to abunch of teachers and even
(02:42):
though I really didn't knowdidn't know anything at all
about that type of learning andeducation, I rashly I mean I was
flattered who's kidding who?
I was like sure, I'll go talkabout learning to a bunch of
teachers, even though I reallydidn't have the relevant
background.
And so after I agreed, it'ssuddenly, like two weeks before
this talk and I had agreed sixmonths out and then suddenly I
(03:05):
was like I had to write the talkand realize I'm like what am I
going to do?
And it was too late to back out.
So I just basically wentthrough my classes that I teach
here at the University ofVirginia and picked out some
stuff that I thought might berelevant, but I was so certain
(03:25):
that this was going to be adisaster.
I had just met the woman who isnow my wife and who is a
teacher, and so I said why don'tyou come to Nashville with me
and watch me give this talk toteachers?
And then I suddenly realized thetalk's going to be a disaster.
So she came to Nashville withme and half an hour before I was
(03:45):
to give the talk, I'm likedon't come.
I wouldn't let her come.
I was so sure it was going togo badly.
Anyway, sorry, this story'skind of long, but the upshot is
it wasn't a disaster.
I was very surprised to findthat teachers didn't know this
content, which really is stufflike you would learn in the very
first course on learning thatyou would take at the University
(04:07):
of Virginia.
A lot of teachers did not know.
They thought it was relevantand my career completely changed
course because it made merealize my field had done a
really bad job of letting peopleknow about what we know about
learning.
So that's how I got into this.
(04:28):
I live in Nashville, do you now?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That wasn't my takeaway from the story, but
when you said that I was likewait.
I live in Nashville.
What a small world.
That's a lovely town, yeah Well, so you?
I mean, you've written severalbooks about this, this topic,
but the most recent one that youwrote Outsmart your Brain.
So why did you decide to writethis one, and how would you say
it differs from the other onesthat you've published?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, the other ones that I've published have been
directed more towards teachers,towards adults, and this one is
very much directed towardsstudents, and I decided to write
that one in a way, you know, itseems again in retrospect it
seems so obvious like why didn'tI do this sooner?
But I discovered that my ownstudents at UVA really didn't
(05:15):
know how to study and when youreflect on it a moment, it makes
perfect sense that they don't.
And, of course, students at UVAare some of the most successful
students in the system.
You would think that they wouldbe really, really good at
knowing how to study.
But they got to UVA despitetheir study habits, not because
(05:37):
of their study habits.
I mean, basically, what happensin most education systems is
when students first come tokindergarten or pre-K, they're
not held responsible for theirlearning at all, which is, of
course, completely appropriate,that you know.
It's the teacher's job toensure that everybody's learning
.
But by the time they graduategrade 12, they are held
(06:00):
responsible for their learningin a lot of different ways.
They're expected to know how tocommit things to memory.
They're expected to takecomplex readings home and tackle
them on their own and know whatto do and be resourceful if
they're having troubleunderstanding them.
They're supposed to cope withtest anxiety, so there's lots of
expectations, but none of thisis systematically taught to
(06:24):
students.
So that was why I wrote thebook was to try to help students
out.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So I've heard this said in several different
circumstances over the years.
So I clearly am not in.
I say clearly I'm not in highschool, I'm not in college.
I am getting my PhD right now,though.
And I say clearly I'm not inhigh school, I'm not in college,
I am getting my PhD right now,though.
So I'm several years removedfrom maybe the ideal person that
this book was written for, butthere's a lot of debate about
the people who study.
I was a very studious studentand I could get A's on my tests,
(06:59):
but I didn't necessarily retainthe information, and so do you
really focus on helping peopleto study in such a way to where
it actually takes a hold oftheir memory and they're like
part of what they can retainlater on?
Or is this really more of howto get an A on your tests?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It's more about the former than the latter.
It's more about really learningand having things stick with
you, but I also try to recognizethe realities of the content
that I teach and I want you tosleep with the book under your
(07:46):
pillow and all that.
But I recognize some of you.
You know you're in the Schoolof Engineering and you're here
because this course was offeredat a convenient time and you
heard it.
Maybe it wasn't very hard,right?
You know, like we've all beenthere, I still want you to get
something out of the course.
But I recognize that thiscourse is not your first
priority.
(08:06):
So what I do in the book is Itry to help students succeed in
those courses and then also makewise choices about how to think
, about where should I put myeffort?
When does it really matter thatI do need to remember this six
months from now and how can Imake sure that happens?
And then other things.
It's like you know what?
I'm an engineer.
(08:27):
This is an art history course.
I thought it would be fun.
I candidly don't care if Iremember this six months from
now, but I need to at least geta B in this course.
I think that's perfectly validand you would study in slightly
different ways for each of thosecircumstances different ways
for each of those circumstances.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
What are the aspects of studying that you believe are
important to take into yourcareer, into adulthood, in just
that same concept we're talkingabout, in retaining things for
memory and being able to succeedwell in the work that you do.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
There are, I think, substantial differences in
learning in the workplace.
I think most people in theirjobs they don't have specific
coursework set for them.
It happens, but it's more rare.
I think it's much more commonthat as part of your daily
(09:20):
workflow, things are, you'redoing things, things are coming
across your desk that you wouldlike to remember, but you don't
have time set aside that isdevoted to learning, and you
certainly don't have someonecoming in and saying listen,
here's the best sequence inwhich to learn these things.
I'm also going to stand by andtell you I think you've mastered
(09:43):
that content.
You're ready to move on to thenext.
These are all aspects oflearning and schooling that you
don't have in the workplace.
So I think the problem is quitedifferent.
Now, your brain's not different,right?
You don't bring a new brainwith you to work, and so the
principles of what really helpsmemory and what doesn't it seems
(10:04):
like it might help memory butactually doesn't don't change.
But the way you want to putthem to work is slightly
different, and so the book isvery much written for students.
It's written for formaleducation.
So if you're in the workforceand you're occasionally doing
trainings, you're sitting inmeetings where someone's doing a
PowerPoint thing.
It's kind of similar to alecture.
(10:26):
Those principles will applyvery directly.
The other stuff like that's mynext book.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, I can see that being a huge need, because it's
true and I consciously didn'trealize it until you said it
there are things in theworkplace we are expected to
learn but we're not being gradedon them.
It're going through some kindof course to aid you in your
work, or you just happen to havesomeone who was a teacher be
your supervisor and they canstructure it for you that way.
Do you think that's somethingthat companies should move?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
towards?
I don't think.
I think the formal aspect.
No, I think that people shouldhave autonomy to decide what it
is they need to learn next, whatwould most benefit them.
I think a lot of companies areafraid to do that because they
(11:30):
they think that people will notchoose wisely and won't know how
to go about it once they startand won't know how to go about
it once they start, and I thinkthat's valid.
And again, this is a problemI'm interested in and working on
now.
I mean, I'm especiallyinterested not just in
committing things to memory, butalso in gaining thinking skills
(11:50):
, because, whatever it is, 70%of American workers now are
knowledge workers.
They're reasoning, they'remaking decisions, they're
expected to solve problems, tobe creative.
These are things you can getbetter at in particular domains.
That's, of course, a type ofmemory, a type of learning, and
so the question is how do youget better at that?
Unless you set aside a littlebit of time, are thoughtful
(12:14):
about it, it's probably notgoing to happen very quickly if
you just say well, you know, I'mhere at work, I'm doing it all
the time.
Surely I'm getting better, andI always point out you know what
.
I've been driving since I was17.
I think I stopped improving atdriving when I was 18.
And since then I've just beenkind of driving.
If you want to get better atthings, you have to be
(12:36):
thoughtful about how you'redoing them driving.
If you want to get better atthings, you have to be
thoughtful about how you'redoing them, try new things out
and so on.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Do you believe that everyone should have a part of
their day or a part of theirweek where they really do focus
on learning or on these thinkingskills like you're talking
about?
And if so, what is that?
What?
What would you recommend thatthat look like for the most
effective way to do that?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
A lot depends on on what it is.
So the first thing I would sayis everybody should certainly be
thoughtful about how they wantto grow and what, what they need
in order to sort of get to thenext level, whatever their goal
is.
In order to determine what thatis, it would be really smart to
have a mentor, to have a fewmentors, a few different people
(13:26):
you could talk to and say okay,so here I am.
I'm in operations at thismidsize company.
I've been here for 10 years.
These are the kinds of things Iknow about and here's what my
goal is.
Here's what I want to do.
What do I need to learn inorder to get there?
The odds that you're going tobe able to figure that out on
yourself, I think, are kind ofremote.
(13:47):
You need someone moreexperienced to help you figure
it out and then, depending onwhat that next thing you need to
learn is, there are differentthings you might want to do you
need to learn is there aredifferent things you might want
to do.
You mentioned setting aside time, which might be appropriate for
some types of skills there are,especially if it is.
You know, one of the things Ithink is really important is.
(14:10):
There are certain it's theright term way to put it sort of
thinking technologies.
These are cultural inventionsMathematics is one example,
Propositional logic is anotherexample that are very useful for
certain types of thinking.
They're not useful at all forother types of thinking, and if
(14:33):
there is a technology like thatthat would be useful in what you
do and you don't know it, youprobably ought to learn it.
If you're involved in riskmanagement or risk assessment
and you don't know probabilitytheory, you really ought to
learn probability theory,because you're thinking about
probability anyway and there'sall kinds of stuff about
probability you don't know, sothat would be set aside.
(14:57):
On the other hand, there may beskills you're trying to improve
where the best way to learn itis not to set aside time but to
tweak your daily workflow sothat the things you have to do
anyway end up being more of alearning experience for you and
not just a get it doneexperience.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Can you give some examples of what you mean by
that?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, and again, this is all my next book folks, so
stay tuned.
This is something I've beenworking on thinking about a lot.
One of the things I think isreally important is, if you're
trying to be a better decisionmaker, it's very hard in most
work contexts to get thefeedback that you need.
(15:42):
In many situations, people aregetting feedback yearly and
they're getting feedback fromtheir supervisor who doesn't
even observe them that much andwho's using in parts what are
supposed to be objective datathat you know.
Survey after survey shows mostworkers feel like those data are
maybe objective.
They're not being interpretedin an objective way.
(16:05):
You can't improve at somethingif you're not getting high
quality feedback.
So one thing you can do is totry to create your own feedback.
The reason that's so hard in theworkplace is the feedback is
almost always delayed.
So I do something like I'mresponsible for figuring out,
finding and selecting asubcontractor for some job.
(16:27):
So I choose someone and it'snot until six months later I
find out these people areterrible.
So naturally I'm like, okay,yeah, I'm never going to hire
them again.
That part's easy.
What I really want to do is goback and say why did I think
this was a good idea in thefirst place.
You know what was mydecision-making mechanism?
Well, if it's six months later,I'm never going to remember
(16:48):
right.
So you need some mechanism bywhich you're capturing some of
those decisions so that, onceyou find out how they turned out
, you can evaluate them.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So being more thoughtful on the front end,
maybe documenting how you'remaking decisions on the front
end.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
This is one example, yeah, and having one example of
the kind of thing I'm talkingabout when I say you know
something that wouldn't take awhole lot of time in your daily
workflow can pay off later.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
In the book you have yourcurrent one Outsmart your Brain.
There are 14 different chaptersand each chapter tackles a
different part of learning howto understand a lecture, how to
take notes, read difficult booksbut there's three in particular
I think are quite poignant formy audience.
So, defeating procrastination,well, maybe even planning your
(17:40):
work, but this whole concept ofplanning your work defeating
procrastination, staying focused, coping with anxiety so why did
you include these as thingsthat need to be there in order
to retain information and learn?
Well, and then what would yousay are some of the highlights
of these areas that help someonestay motivated, stay focused
(18:03):
and keep moving forward in whatthey're working?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
towards.
They're in the book becausethey are important to learning
and I think it's prettyintuitive.
I think your audience willappreciate learning is really
difficult if you're anxiousbecause your mind is consumed
with being anxious about otherthings.
Procrastination is obviously aproblem.
Planning is a huge problem.
I'll just mention planning issomething that really becomes
(18:30):
urgent for students, probablyabout middle school.
That's when school starts toget much more serious.
Their social lives increasegreatly.
If they're into sports ormusical instruments, the demands
for that really increase.
But again, there's really noone teaching them how to plan
(18:50):
and so it's all pretty seat ofthe pants and you know by the
time they get to me a lot ofthem.
Some of them have figured itout, some of them have not.
They get to me a lot of them.
Some of them have figured itout, some of them have not.
And, as I know very well, someof them are exiting UVA and
going to the workforce and it'sscheduling is still a matter of
sort of writing things on yourhand and apologizing when they
don't work out you know thatwhen you're late, that's sort
(19:10):
of it.
So, yeah, I mean I offer lotsof different ideas in the book.
I mean I think that the bigthing with procrastination, the
most important tip for students,is really to take a page out of
what life is like once you'rein the workplace, which is, when
you're in the workplace it'slike it's not.
(19:31):
You know it's not.
Showing up to work is notoptional and you just you have
to go and you may procrastinateonce you get there, but at least
you're in the right spot andyou're at your desk.
And so the real enemy is makingdecisions Should I work or
should I not?
And so many students take thetack of sort of every every
(19:52):
night they think, ok, what do Ido in the next couple of days?
And that's really offeringthemselves a decision Should I
work or should I not work?
Because if I it looks like Idon't have anything to do I
won't work.
And they'd be much better offsaying every night, from seven
till 930, I work, and if I don'thave anything to do tomorrow,
I'm working on something that'sdue the next day or even into
(20:14):
the next week.
And then the question becomeshow do you make that a habit?
And there are lots of differenttricks, many of which are
probably familiar to youraudience that I talk about there
.
When it comes to distraction,there are a few things that you
can do.
I think one of the mostimportant is not to choose
(20:35):
distraction in the first place.
The number of people who try tomultitask whether it's media
multitasking, having music going, anything else people everybody
knows that multitasking costsyou.
Lab experiments show peopleunderestimate the cost.
Yeah, how much it's affectingyour primary task.
(20:57):
I looked at these data indetail a couple of years ago and
was surprised.
Even something that is asautomatic as driving, even if
you're a very experienced driver, people who are listening to
music when they're driving aremore prone to get into accidents
than people who are notlistening to music when they're
driving.
Get into accidents than peoplewho are not listening to music
(21:21):
when they're driving.
And it's yeah, I mean it's grim.
I mean the way I ended up notwriting this because I thought
it was too inflammatory, but thetruth is it's probably fair to
say there are a couple of peopledie each year so that the rest
of us can listen to music whilewe drive.
I mean, that's the brute factof things.
So distraction is yeah,distraction is a is a huge
problem when it comes to anxiety.
(21:43):
I mean, I'm I'm looking at youknow again sort of clinical
levels of anxiety and of course,the first thing to do is to
seek professional help.
But there are things you can do.
If that's not available to you,if there are financial
obstacles or if it's just sortof not working out for you at
(22:04):
the moment, one of the biggestthings you can do is most people
with anxiety, they havetriggers and they sort of know
what the triggers are.
So it might be for you there'sa weekly meeting.
Everyone has to go around thetable and sort of you know, talk
about what they've done thisweek, what they've gotten done,
or whatever it is.
(22:24):
Or maybe you're making apresentation, whatever.
Whatever it might be.
You know what your triggers are, and so the thing that people
try is when they're sittingthere at the table and
everyone's going around the room, they're sort of trying to talk
themselves down and they'resaying like, all right, dan, now
look, this is not that big adeal.
You do this every week.
(22:44):
The problem is, by that timeit's too late, you're already
deeply into the anxiety and youcan't really talk yourself out
of it at that moment.
The thing to do is that sort ofself-talk will help, but do it
48 hours beforehand.
So think to yourself okay, isit really likely to happen that
(23:05):
I'm going to make an idiot outof myself during this
presentation, or is it more thecase that I worry about that?
I think it's going to happenand then it actually turns out
fine, right.
And then think through okay,worst case scenario, someone
like me gives a terriblepresentation.
People are laughing andpointing right, what's going to
(23:25):
happen?
Right, I'm in this thoughtspiral where I'm thinking I'm
going to get fired, I'm going tolose, won't be able to get
another job, I'm going to losemy house.
Is that really what's going tohappen?
Actually, if I give a terriblepresentation, the worst thing is
my boss will say something tome, right, and then you can talk
yourself down.
Now, the key then is 48 hourswhen you're in the meeting.
(23:47):
You can't have that logicalthought process when you're
absorbed by anxiety, becausethinking is too affected by
anxiety.
Memory is less affected byanxiety.
Affected by anxiety, memory isless affected by anxiety.
So, even if I'm very anxious,memory will work well enough
that I can remember.
You know what?
I went through this a couple ofdays ago and I remembered that
(24:08):
the thoughts I'm having nowdidn't really make any sense and
that actually might really helpyou.
So that's something that again.
There's lots more in the book,but that's briefly.
That's something you can try.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, absolutely the multitasking information that is
shocking and not shocking right, because I think we all kind of
know multitasking doesn't help,but a lot of people really want
to defend their stance that no,I'm a great multitasker, I can
do multiple things.
What are some of the things youthink would help people to not
(24:44):
multitask as much?
I mean, there's, there's adrive coming from somewhere,
whether it's just the short spanof attention.
Is there a way to get at thecore of what it is, so that
focus can have a longer duration?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing at first of all is to
, you know, sort of do a littlesort of sit with yourself a
moment and say is this sort ofcoming from a frantic need to
get things done that in calmermoments I would say I'm not
really sure this is the way Iwould advise someone to live.
Like am I the kind of personwhere, if I'm alone, like I
(25:22):
can't just sit down and eat ameal, I have to read while I eat
, or I have to be watchingYouTube, or I'm answering email,
or like you know that there'sthis feeling that if I'm not
being productive in some waythat you know I'm not doing it
right.
A friend of mine told me aboutshe was.
She went on vacation and herdad said all right, what are
(25:44):
your goals for today?
And she's like well, I'm onvacation.
He says right, our goal is torelax.
How are we going to do that?
She was like this is a bit so.
That's the kind of thing I'mthinking about.
So first I would sort of do alittle bit of self-analysis.
Is this where my multitaskingis coming?
(26:04):
That that may help.
The second thing is, you know,recognize this is costing the
performance in the primary task,the performance in the primary
task.
So, at the very least, beselective and recognize, you
know, if I'm doing, if I'mtrying to do something that's
actually really pretty important, maybe I better do that, you
(26:26):
know, have some quiet timethat's really devoted to that,
and allow myself to multitask onstuff.
That is, you know, if it'sreally that important to me to
do it, go ahead and do it, butdo it on stuff that is less
consequential.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Less consequential.
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Well, I cannot wait for yournext book to come out.
I mean, I love the current book, but for the next one when you
talk more about work and thingslike that do you have any kind
of timeframe or idea of what itmight be titled?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I have not.
I mean, I've got a bunch oftentative titles.
I have no idea when it's goingto be out.
I've just started writing prose.
I mean, the ideas are probablythree or four years old now and
I spent probably 18 monthsfiguring out how I was going to
frame this book so that it would, I hope, make sense to readers,
and I'm just starting toactually do the writing.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, how do you structure your day for your best
work and outcomes?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Like many people, I'm most productive in the morning,
and so things that are morechallenging and I think are
harder for me, I do those in themorning and then the afternoons
.
Yeah, things that are moreroutine.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And like everyone else, like all the standard
advice I think is pretty goodadvice.
If you're trying to writesomething, you just have to
write every day and you can'twait until you feel like it.
You can't wait until you feelinspired, you just have to sit
down and write terribly and thenrevise.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Well, thank you so much for your time, dr
Willingham, and we will put thelinks to your books in the show
notes, especially the one ofOutsmart your Brain.
Is there any other way thatlisteners can follow you or keep
in contact with the work thatyou're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
contact with the work that you're doing.
Yeah, I mean I'm on.
I'm on there.
I have a website, danielWillingham dot com, that I
infrequently update.
I'm on Facebook and Twitter orX, sorry now at DT Willingham.
I'm on TikTok at Danielunderscore Willingham, which is
has been hilarious, by the way,for me to be on TikTok, so I've
(28:31):
been having great fun with that.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Good for you.
I'm not even on TikTok, but Iknow many of the listeners are,
so they'll love, love going andfinding you there.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
There's a story behind that and, like, once
we're off air, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh, sounds good.
Thank you so much for your time.
I appreciate it so much.
It's been a pleasure, thanks.
When we talk about the fourareas of attraction and the four
areas of how we can personallywork to be our best selves, it's
the areas of physical,intellectual, emotional and
spiritual, and in today'sepisode we really covered a lot
(29:06):
about the intellectual part ofgrowth and of personal
development and ultimately thatwill translate down the line to
being a more attractive personintellectually as well.
When we think about learningand memory, there are definitely
things that we can begin doingto learn better, to retain
information and many of thosethings Dr Willingham discussed
(29:27):
in our episode today.
I love these three keytakeaways from today's episode.
The first one was when DrWillingham said everyone should
be thoughtful in how they wantto grow, how they want to learn,
what they want to learn, whothey want to continue to become.
These are key areas that we asindividuals should actually
(29:51):
spend some time thinking about.
I actually have a friend one ofour team members on the
Marriage Helper team gave methis journal and I really
appreciate the gift that he gavethis to me and it's a journal
that there's not really anythingin it.
It doesn't have words on it,you can kind of use it however
(30:11):
you want to, but the idea of itis to create a theme or themes
for your months or for your yearand to really be thoughtful,
before you ever start writing inthe journal, of what are the
things that you want to focus on, to improve in each area of
your life.
And that's kind of the promptof the beginning of it to sit,
(30:32):
to take time to think, to reallyput careful consideration into
how we can continue to grow anddevelop.
And so just this morning I wassitting here and thinking I need
more time to think about whereare the areas of my life that
I'm frustrated with myself,where are the areas of growth
and development that I couldconsider taking into account and
(30:57):
working towards through therest of this year?
Because if we don't start takingcontrol of our life in a
healthy way, then our life willtake control of us.
We're never going to be able tofully control our circumstances
outside environment, thingsthat happen to us.
We're never going to be able tofully control our circumstances
outside environment, thingsthat happen to us.
We don't, we can't, we can'tcontrol those things, but we can
(31:21):
control our actions and ourbehaviors.
We can't control other people,but we can control ourselves and
we can work towards becomingthe best we can be, and this
applies to the areas we want tolearn more as well.
So, being thoughtful and howyou want to grow intellectually
and taking time into thinking,whether it's with your career or
(31:43):
hobbies that you have, or yourhome life or ways that you want
to help raise your kids andteach your kids, if you want to
get to the next level, what arethe things you need to learn?
I'll give a perfect example ofmy current life, of how this
statement hit me today.
So, as a CEO of a company, oneof the main roles that I have
other than vision casting, otherthan helping to build and
(32:06):
maintain an amazing culture formy team and pouring into them
and developing leaders withinthe team All of that is
incredibly important.
But another important part ofrunning a company is Ashflow and
financial management, and this,admittedly, has been something
that I've pretty muchhistorically just handed off to
an accountant and trusted thatthey understood what they were
(32:27):
doing.
But I've actually been doing alot of reading and learning over
the past month now intodifferent ways to look at profit
and loss statements, differentways to think about how to look
at certain financialmeasurements in a business, and
it's been incredibly eye openingfor me, to the point to where I
mean.
I won't get into all thedetails now, but last night I
(32:49):
was explaining some of thesethings to my husband and in
talking about how so manycompanies are, you know, focused
on this certain revenue metricwhen in reality, that revenue
metric doesn't matter at all,like, at the end of the day, a
company could be making $100million a year and could still
be in debt, right.
And so how can we look at it ina better way?
So what are some of thosebetter metrics to look at?
(33:10):
And my husband looked at me andhe said you doing this is
expanding and increasing yourleadership lid.
Now, the leadership lid conceptis from John Maxwell and he
talks about the laws ofleadership and how an
organization can grow only asmuch as the capability of the
leader of it, and so everyleader hits a lid, and once you
(33:34):
hit your lid, it stunts thegrowth of the organization,
right?
But the same is true with us inour personal lives.
We all have current lids on ourpersonal development and if we
don't continue to try and pushpast that, to grow ourselves, to
understand and learn more, tobe able to push past our current
lid or to elevate our currentlid and increase it, then we are
(33:57):
going to continue to be stuckin certain ways and in certain
areas.
So what are the things that youneed to learn to help you to
become more of the person thatyou want to be?
The second key takeaway I hadfrom our conversation is you
can't get good if you don't havehigh quality feedback.
And how often in our lives dowe push off hearing critical
(34:23):
feedback Not critical in thesense of maybe let me say it
this way how often in our livesdo we push off critiques and
feedback critiques of what wedid and how we could do it
better?
Not the critical kind where thepeople are like what's wrong
with you and you and they startattacking us, you know, equating
(34:44):
us with the work that we did.
That's not what I'm talkingabout but positive critiques
like tell me what I could dobetter.
This is the only way.
That might be a strongstatement.
This is a very important way tobe able to grow and to get
better at what we do.
So a couple of months ago, I wasspeaking and giving a
presentation at a conference inCosta Rica to a group of
(35:07):
marketing agency owners, and Ilistened like I left that stage
feeling amazing about what I did, and I got great feedback and I
really do think that one of theways that I am gifted if this
is so weird to say, becausepeople don't like bragging about
themselves, but I do believethat I do have an ability to
(35:30):
speak and I think it's somethingmy dad has poured into me, but
I do think it's something thatGod has given me as well, and
not just because of me, butbecause, for whatever reason,
this is what God would like meto do with my life, and it's not
about me, it's all about whatGod does, and my mouth just
happens to be the voice piece ofit.
(35:51):
And by no means am I the bestor do I even think that it's me
in my power that's doing thiswell.
But when I got off that stage Ithought, man, like that was
that was.
I think I really delivered itwell.
I believe I did a good job.
I believe it hit well with theaudience, and so I was proud of
(36:11):
the work that I did.
But there's always room forgrowth right.
And so I went back and Ilistened back through the
presentation and all like therewas at least five things in the
first three minutes that Ithought I can do that better.
I can do that better.
I can't believe that I talkedthat fast.
I could have had a strongeropening statement.
(36:32):
My voice was a little shaky inthe in the first three minutes,
right Like I just went throughwith different ears and decided
this is one of the hardestthings to do is to go back and
listen to me, do something likethat, or go back and listen to
the podcast that I do listen tomyself speak.
It's very difficult because ofthese reasons.
(36:54):
When you listen back through it, it feels like it's almost
never good enough.
But it's the only way tocontinue to grow is by receiving
feedback, either from otherpeople or from myself, and so I
actually took that speech and Isent it to people who I really
respect their opinion and theirfeedback, and I asked them to
critique it for me.
So a question for you here iswhere can you be more proactive
(37:19):
in asking for critical, positivefeedback in your life?
Not from the people who arejust going to push you down and
make you feel crappy aboutyourself, but from people you
know love you care about you andhave the expertise to give you
good feedback in that situation.
But also, where can you be morereceptive to feedback that
(37:40):
people are already trying togive you?
That's my second key takeawayfrom today, and then my third
key takeaway is stop themultitasking.
I am, admittedly, absolutelyterrible at multitasking.
I am infamous for doing mymorning walks while listening to
an audio book and trying toeither read an article or
research something on theinternet, and it never fails
(38:02):
that I, if I'm trying to readsomething while listening to
something, I will get about fiveminutes into that and realize I
don't know a thing this personhas said in the past five
minutes, and I have to back mypodcast up or back the audio
book up in order to actuallylisten, and so I know that I
need to only do one thing at atime.
(38:23):
But, just like Dr Willinghamsaid, the stress, the pressure
to try and feel productive or toget a bunch of stuff done can
lead us to make some very notwise decisions in the way that
we use our time and in the waythat we multitask, and so I love
what his feedback was.
For the things that are verycrucial, that matter a lot, then
(38:45):
don't multitask on those items.
If you wouldn't advise yourfriend to multitask in the
middle of that important thing,then don't do it yourself, right
?
But maybe for some of thethings that are more monotonous,
more routine, more rote thingsthat maybe you can multitask and
if you mess it up a little bitit doesn't matter as much maybe
(39:06):
shopping Amazon while alsolistening to a podcast then
maybe those things are a littlebetter to multitask.
But, as always, we should neverdrive and do any of those other
things while on our phone.
Just public service announcement.
Because I love each and everyone of you, I hope you enjoyed
today's episode.
I know it's a little bitdifferent than what we've
typically been talking about,but intellectual attraction is
(39:28):
important and investing inourselves and our growth
abilities is an important partof how we can become the best
that we can be and live the lifethat we are called to in the
fullest extent of what God hasplanned out for us.
Loved having you on.
Share this episode with afriend.
Would love if you would leave areview and, until next week,
stay strong.
Today I'm speaking with Dr Dan Willingham.
He is a renowned cognitivepsychologist and he's a
professor of psychology at theUniversity of Virginia.
He has done significant work inthe areas of learning and in
memory and he's written manybooks for educators on how they
can help students that theyteach to learn better and to do
(00:22):
better in school.
But he actually has a book outnow called Outsmart your Brain.
That's written more for theolder student, so this is
definitely something for yourhigh schoolers, college aged
kids or if you are currentlygoing through a master's degree
or a PhD.
You're definitely going to findvalue of his new book.
But what we talk about today isapplicable to anyone who wants
(00:45):
to learn more or to learn better, or if you're in a career where
you feel like you might bestuck and maybe it's because you
are lacking in something that,if you learned it that it would
be a major help for you.
Let's dive into today's episode.
Thank you so much for being onwith me today, dr Dan Willingham
.
How are you?
I'm well.
(01:06):
Thanks, I hope you are.
I am, I'm doing well.
Thank you very much.
So you have done several booksthat have focused around this
concept of how to help peopleI'll say it from my perspective
learn better or just be able toretain information better, and
your newest book that you haveout is called Outsmart your
(01:27):
Brain, and that's really what Iwant to ask you a lot of
questions about today.
But before we dive into that,what got you started in this
line of work and in this line ofresearch?
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, and my particular line of work is
actually pretty odd given mybackground.
So I started life as a basicscientist.
I went to graduate school andmy work was on learning and
memory.
But I was at the intersectionof experimental psychology and
(01:59):
neuroscience and I was workingon problems that are really
pretty technical.
And I joke in the book.
There's a very old joke amongpeople with PhDs like you get
your PhD and you tell yourparents about it all proud and
then they tell their friends,yeah, my son's a doctor, but not
the type of doctor who helpsanybody.
And I sort of did that onebetter.
(02:21):
I was.
I studied learning but Icouldn't really help you learn
anything.
That was what my work was like.
I did that for about 10 yearsand then, sort of just by
happenstance, because I knowsomebody here in town, I was
invited to give a talk to abunch of teachers and even
(02:42):
though I really didn't knowdidn't know anything at all
about that type of learning andeducation, I rashly I mean I was
flattered who's kidding who?
I was like sure, I'll go talkabout learning to a bunch of
teachers, even though I reallydidn't have the relevant
background.
And so after I agreed, it'ssuddenly, like two weeks before
this talk and I had agreed sixmonths out and then suddenly I
(03:05):
was like I had to write the talkand realize I'm like what am I
going to do?
And it was too late to back out.
So I just basically wentthrough my classes that I teach
here at the University ofVirginia and picked out some
stuff that I thought might berelevant, but I was so certain
(03:25):
that this was going to be adisaster.
I had just met the woman who isnow my wife and who is a
teacher, and so I said why don'tyou come to Nashville with me
and watch me give this talk toteachers?
And then I suddenly realized thetalk's going to be a disaster.
So she came to Nashville withme and half an hour before I was
(03:45):
to give the talk, I'm likedon't come.
I wouldn't let her come.
I was so sure it was going togo badly.
Anyway, sorry, this story'skind of long, but the upshot is
it wasn't a disaster.
I was very surprised to findthat teachers didn't know this
content, which really is stufflike you would learn in the very
first course on learning thatyou would take at the University
(04:07):
of Virginia.
A lot of teachers did not know.
They thought it was relevantand my career completely changed
course because it made merealize my field had done a
really bad job of letting peopleknow about what we know about
learning.
So that's how I got into this.
(04:28):
I live in Nashville, do you now?
Speaker 1 (04:31):
That wasn't my takeaway from the story, but
when you said that I was likewait.
I live in Nashville.
What a small world.
That's a lovely town, yeah Well, so you?
I mean, you've written severalbooks about this, this topic,
but the most recent one that youwrote Outsmart your Brain.
So why did you decide to writethis one, and how would you say
it differs from the other onesthat you've published?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, the other ones that I've published have been
directed more towards teachers,towards adults, and this one is
very much directed towardsstudents, and I decided to write
that one in a way, you know, itseems again in retrospect it
seems so obvious like why didn'tI do this sooner?
But I discovered that my ownstudents at UVA really didn't
(05:15):
know how to study and when youreflect on it a moment, it makes
perfect sense that they don't.
And, of course, students at UVAare some of the most successful
students in the system.
You would think that they wouldbe really, really good at
knowing how to study.
But they got to UVA despitetheir study habits, not because
(05:37):
of their study habits.
I mean, basically, what happensin most education systems is
when students first come tokindergarten or pre-K, they're
not held responsible for theirlearning at all, which is, of
course, completely appropriate,that you know.
It's the teacher's job toensure that everybody's learning
.
But by the time they graduategrade 12, they are held
(06:00):
responsible for their learningin a lot of different ways.
They're expected to know how tocommit things to memory.
They're expected to takecomplex readings home and tackle
them on their own and know whatto do and be resourceful if
they're having troubleunderstanding them.
They're supposed to cope withtest anxiety, so there's lots of
expectations, but none of thisis systematically taught to
(06:24):
students.
So that was why I wrote thebook was to try to help students
out.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
So I've heard this said in several different
circumstances over the years.
So I clearly am not in.
I say clearly I'm not in highschool, I'm not in college.
I am getting my PhD right now,though.
And I say clearly I'm not inhigh school, I'm not in college,
I am getting my PhD right now,though.
So I'm several years removedfrom maybe the ideal person that
this book was written for, butthere's a lot of debate about
the people who study.
I was a very studious studentand I could get A's on my tests,
(06:59):
but I didn't necessarily retainthe information, and so do you
really focus on helping peopleto study in such a way to where
it actually takes a hold oftheir memory and they're like
part of what they can retainlater on?
Or is this really more of howto get an A on your tests?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
It's more about the former than the latter.
It's more about really learningand having things stick with
you, but I also try to recognizethe realities of the content
that I teach and I want you tosleep with the book under your
(07:46):
pillow and all that.
But I recognize some of you.
You know you're in the Schoolof Engineering and you're here
because this course was offeredat a convenient time and you
heard it.
Maybe it wasn't very hard,right?
You know, like we've all beenthere, I still want you to get
something out of the course.
But I recognize that thiscourse is not your first
priority.
(08:06):
So what I do in the book is Itry to help students succeed in
those courses and then also makewise choices about how to think
, about where should I put myeffort?
When does it really matter thatI do need to remember this six
months from now and how can Imake sure that happens?
And then other things.
It's like you know what?
I'm an engineer.
(08:27):
This is an art history course.
I thought it would be fun.
I candidly don't care if Iremember this six months from
now, but I need to at least geta B in this course.
I think that's perfectly validand you would study in slightly
different ways for each of thosecircumstances different ways
for each of those circumstances.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
What are the aspects of studying that you believe are
important to take into yourcareer, into adulthood, in just
that same concept we're talkingabout, in retaining things for
memory and being able to succeedwell in the work that you do.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
There are, I think, substantial differences in
learning in the workplace.
I think most people in theirjobs they don't have specific
coursework set for them.
It happens, but it's more rare.
I think it's much more commonthat as part of your daily
(09:20):
workflow, things are, you'redoing things, things are coming
across your desk that you wouldlike to remember, but you don't
have time set aside that isdevoted to learning, and you
certainly don't have someonecoming in and saying listen,
here's the best sequence inwhich to learn these things.
I'm also going to stand by andtell you I think you've mastered
(09:43):
that content.
You're ready to move on to thenext.
These are all aspects oflearning and schooling that you
don't have in the workplace.
So I think the problem is quitedifferent.
Now, your brain's not different,right?
You don't bring a new brainwith you to work, and so the
principles of what really helpsmemory and what doesn't it seems
(10:04):
like it might help memory butactually doesn't don't change.
But the way you want to putthem to work is slightly
different, and so the book isvery much written for students.
It's written for formaleducation.
So if you're in the workforceand you're occasionally doing
trainings, you're sitting inmeetings where someone's doing a
PowerPoint thing.
It's kind of similar to alecture.
(10:26):
Those principles will applyvery directly.
The other stuff like that's mynext book.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, I can see that being a huge need, because it's
true and I consciously didn'trealize it until you said it
there are things in theworkplace we are expected to
learn but we're not being gradedon them.
It're going through some kindof course to aid you in your
work, or you just happen to havesomeone who was a teacher be
your supervisor and they canstructure it for you that way.
Do you think that's somethingthat companies should move?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
towards?
I don't think.
I think the formal aspect.
No, I think that people shouldhave autonomy to decide what it
is they need to learn next, whatwould most benefit them.
I think a lot of companies areafraid to do that because they
(11:30):
they think that people will notchoose wisely and won't know how
to go about it once they startand won't know how to go about
it once they start, and I thinkthat's valid.
And again, this is a problemI'm interested in and working on
now.
I mean, I'm especiallyinterested not just in
committing things to memory, butalso in gaining thinking skills
(11:50):
, because, whatever it is, 70%of American workers now are
knowledge workers.
They're reasoning, they'remaking decisions, they're
expected to solve problems, tobe creative.
These are things you can getbetter at in particular domains.
That's, of course, a type ofmemory, a type of learning, and
so the question is how do youget better at that?
Unless you set aside a littlebit of time, are thoughtful
(12:14):
about it, it's probably notgoing to happen very quickly if
you just say well, you know, I'mhere at work, I'm doing it all
the time.
Surely I'm getting better, andI always point out you know what
.
I've been driving since I was17.
I think I stopped improving atdriving when I was 18.
And since then I've just beenkind of driving.
If you want to get better atthings, you have to be
(12:36):
thoughtful about how you'redoing them driving.
If you want to get better atthings, you have to be
thoughtful about how you'redoing them, try new things out
and so on.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Do you believe that everyone should have a part of
their day or a part of theirweek where they really do focus
on learning or on these thinkingskills like you're talking
about?
And if so, what is that?
What?
What would you recommend thatthat look like for the most
effective way to do that?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
A lot depends on on what it is.
So the first thing I would sayis everybody should certainly be
thoughtful about how they wantto grow and what, what they need
in order to sort of get to thenext level, whatever their goal
is.
In order to determine what thatis, it would be really smart to
have a mentor, to have a fewmentors, a few different people
(13:26):
you could talk to and say okay,so here I am.
I'm in operations at thismidsize company.
I've been here for 10 years.
These are the kinds of things Iknow about and here's what my
goal is.
Here's what I want to do.
What do I need to learn inorder to get there?
The odds that you're going tobe able to figure that out on
yourself, I think, are kind ofremote.
(13:47):
You need someone moreexperienced to help you figure
it out and then, depending onwhat that next thing you need to
learn is, there are differentthings you might want to do you
need to learn is there aredifferent things you might want
to do.
You mentioned setting aside time, which might be appropriate for
some types of skills there are,especially if it is.
You know, one of the things Ithink is really important is.
(14:10):
There are certain it's theright term way to put it sort of
thinking technologies.
These are cultural inventionsMathematics is one example,
Propositional logic is anotherexample that are very useful for
certain types of thinking.
They're not useful at all forother types of thinking, and if
(14:33):
there is a technology like thatthat would be useful in what you
do and you don't know it, youprobably ought to learn it.
If you're involved in riskmanagement or risk assessment
and you don't know probabilitytheory, you really ought to
learn probability theory,because you're thinking about
probability anyway and there'sall kinds of stuff about
probability you don't know, sothat would be set aside.
(14:57):
On the other hand, there may beskills you're trying to improve
where the best way to learn itis not to set aside time but to
tweak your daily workflow sothat the things you have to do
anyway end up being more of alearning experience for you and
not just a get it doneexperience.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Can you give some examples of what you mean by
that?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah, and again, this is all my next book folks, so
stay tuned.
This is something I've beenworking on thinking about a lot.
One of the things I think isreally important is, if you're
trying to be a better decisionmaker, it's very hard in most
work contexts to get thefeedback that you need.
(15:42):
In many situations, people aregetting feedback yearly and
they're getting feedback fromtheir supervisor who doesn't
even observe them that much andwho's using in parts what are
supposed to be objective datathat you know.
Survey after survey shows mostworkers feel like those data are
maybe objective.
They're not being interpretedin an objective way.
(16:05):
You can't improve at somethingif you're not getting high
quality feedback.
So one thing you can do is totry to create your own feedback.
The reason that's so hard in theworkplace is the feedback is
almost always delayed.
So I do something like I'mresponsible for figuring out,
finding and selecting asubcontractor for some job.
(16:27):
So I choose someone and it'snot until six months later I
find out these people areterrible.
So naturally I'm like, okay,yeah, I'm never going to hire
them again.
That part's easy.
What I really want to do is goback and say why did I think
this was a good idea in thefirst place.
You know what was mydecision-making mechanism?
Well, if it's six months later,I'm never going to remember
(16:48):
right.
So you need some mechanism bywhich you're capturing some of
those decisions so that, onceyou find out how they turned out
, you can evaluate them.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So being more thoughtful on the front end,
maybe documenting how you'remaking decisions on the front
end.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
This is one example, yeah, and having one example of
the kind of thing I'm talkingabout when I say you know
something that wouldn't take awhole lot of time in your daily
workflow can pay off later.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's really good.
In the book you have yourcurrent one Outsmart your Brain.
There are 14 different chaptersand each chapter tackles a
different part of learning howto understand a lecture, how to
take notes, read difficult booksbut there's three in particular
I think are quite poignant formy audience.
So, defeating procrastination,well, maybe even planning your
(17:40):
work, but this whole concept ofplanning your work defeating
procrastination, staying focused, coping with anxiety so why did
you include these as thingsthat need to be there in order
to retain information and learn?
Well, and then what would yousay are some of the highlights
of these areas that help someonestay motivated, stay focused
(18:03):
and keep moving forward in whatthey're working?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
towards.
They're in the book becausethey are important to learning
and I think it's prettyintuitive.
I think your audience willappreciate learning is really
difficult if you're anxiousbecause your mind is consumed
with being anxious about otherthings.
Procrastination is obviously aproblem.
Planning is a huge problem.
I'll just mention planning issomething that really becomes
(18:30):
urgent for students, probablyabout middle school.
That's when school starts toget much more serious.
Their social lives increasegreatly.
If they're into sports ormusical instruments, the demands
for that really increase.
But again, there's really noone teaching them how to plan
(18:50):
and so it's all pretty seat ofthe pants and you know by the
time they get to me a lot ofthem.
Some of them have figured itout, some of them have not.
They get to me a lot of them.
Some of them have figured itout, some of them have not.
And, as I know very well, someof them are exiting UVA and
going to the workforce and it'sscheduling is still a matter of
sort of writing things on yourhand and apologizing when they
don't work out you know thatwhen you're late, that's sort
(19:10):
of it.
So, yeah, I mean I offer lotsof different ideas in the book.
I mean I think that the bigthing with procrastination, the
most important tip for students,is really to take a page out of
what life is like once you'rein the workplace, which is, when
you're in the workplace it'slike it's not.
(19:31):
You know it's not.
Showing up to work is notoptional and you just you have
to go and you may procrastinateonce you get there, but at least
you're in the right spot andyou're at your desk.
And so the real enemy is makingdecisions Should I work or
should I not?
And so many students take thetack of sort of every every
(19:52):
night they think, ok, what do Ido in the next couple of days?
And that's really offeringthemselves a decision Should I
work or should I not work?
Because if I it looks like Idon't have anything to do I
won't work.
And they'd be much better offsaying every night, from seven
till 930, I work, and if I don'thave anything to do tomorrow,
I'm working on something that'sdue the next day or even into
(20:14):
the next week.
And then the question becomeshow do you make that a habit?
And there are lots of differenttricks, many of which are
probably familiar to youraudience that I talk about there
.
When it comes to distraction,there are a few things that you
can do.
I think one of the mostimportant is not to choose
(20:35):
distraction in the first place.
The number of people who try tomultitask whether it's media
multitasking, having music going, anything else people everybody
knows that multitasking costsyou.
Lab experiments show peopleunderestimate the cost.
Yeah, how much it's affectingyour primary task.
(20:57):
I looked at these data indetail a couple of years ago and
was surprised.
Even something that is asautomatic as driving, even if
you're a very experienced driver, people who are listening to
music when they're driving aremore prone to get into accidents
than people who are notlistening to music when they're
driving.
Get into accidents than peoplewho are not listening to music
(21:21):
when they're driving.
And it's yeah, I mean it's grim.
I mean the way I ended up notwriting this because I thought
it was too inflammatory, but thetruth is it's probably fair to
say there are a couple of peopledie each year so that the rest
of us can listen to music whilewe drive.
I mean, that's the brute factof things.
So distraction is yeah,distraction is a is a huge
problem when it comes to anxiety.
(21:43):
I mean, I'm I'm looking at youknow again sort of clinical
levels of anxiety and of course,the first thing to do is to
seek professional help.
But there are things you can do.
If that's not available to you,if there are financial
obstacles or if it's just sortof not working out for you at
(22:04):
the moment, one of the biggestthings you can do is most people
with anxiety, they havetriggers and they sort of know
what the triggers are.
So it might be for you there'sa weekly meeting.
Everyone has to go around thetable and sort of you know, talk
about what they've done thisweek, what they've gotten done,
or whatever it is.
(22:24):
Or maybe you're making apresentation, whatever.
Whatever it might be.
You know what your triggers are, and so the thing that people
try is when they're sittingthere at the table and
everyone's going around the room, they're sort of trying to talk
themselves down and they'resaying like, all right, dan, now
look, this is not that big adeal.
You do this every week.
(22:44):
The problem is, by that timeit's too late, you're already
deeply into the anxiety and youcan't really talk yourself out
of it at that moment.
The thing to do is that sort ofself-talk will help, but do it
48 hours beforehand.
So think to yourself okay, isit really likely to happen that
(23:05):
I'm going to make an idiot outof myself during this
presentation, or is it more thecase that I worry about that?
I think it's going to happenand then it actually turns out
fine, right.
And then think through okay,worst case scenario, someone
like me gives a terriblepresentation.
People are laughing andpointing right, what's going to
(23:25):
happen?
Right, I'm in this thoughtspiral where I'm thinking I'm
going to get fired, I'm going tolose, won't be able to get
another job, I'm going to losemy house.
Is that really what's going tohappen?
Actually, if I give a terriblepresentation, the worst thing is
my boss will say something tome, right, and then you can talk
yourself down.
Now, the key then is 48 hourswhen you're in the meeting.
(23:47):
You can't have that logicalthought process when you're
absorbed by anxiety, becausethinking is too affected by
anxiety.
Memory is less affected byanxiety.
Affected by anxiety, memory isless affected by anxiety.
So, even if I'm very anxious,memory will work well enough
that I can remember.
You know what?
I went through this a couple ofdays ago and I remembered that
(24:08):
the thoughts I'm having nowdidn't really make any sense and
that actually might really helpyou.
So that's something that again.
There's lots more in the book,but that's briefly.
That's something you can try.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, absolutely the multitasking information that is
shocking and not shocking right, because I think we all kind of
know multitasking doesn't help,but a lot of people really want
to defend their stance that no,I'm a great multitasker, I can
do multiple things.
What are some of the things youthink would help people to not
(24:44):
multitask as much?
I mean, there's, there's adrive coming from somewhere,
whether it's just the short spanof attention.
Is there a way to get at thecore of what it is, so that
focus can have a longer duration?
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing at first of all is to
, you know, sort of do a littlesort of sit with yourself a
moment and say is this sort ofcoming from a frantic need to
get things done that in calmermoments I would say I'm not
really sure this is the way Iwould advise someone to live.
Like am I the kind of personwhere, if I'm alone, like I
(25:22):
can't just sit down and eat ameal, I have to read while I eat
, or I have to be watchingYouTube, or I'm answering email,
or like you know that there'sthis feeling that if I'm not
being productive in some waythat you know I'm not doing it
right.
A friend of mine told me aboutshe was.
She went on vacation and herdad said all right, what are
(25:44):
your goals for today?
And she's like well, I'm onvacation.
He says right, our goal is torelax.
How are we going to do that?
She was like this is a bit so.
That's the kind of thing I'mthinking about.
So first I would sort of do alittle bit of self-analysis.
Is this where my multitaskingis coming?
(26:04):
That that may help.
The second thing is, you know,recognize this is costing the
performance in the primary task,the performance in the primary
task.
So, at the very least, beselective and recognize, you
know, if I'm doing, if I'mtrying to do something that's
actually really pretty important, maybe I better do that, you
(26:26):
know, have some quiet timethat's really devoted to that,
and allow myself to multitask onstuff.
That is, you know, if it'sreally that important to me to
do it, go ahead and do it, butdo it on stuff that is less
consequential.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Less consequential.
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Well, I cannot wait for yournext book to come out.
I mean, I love the current book, but for the next one when you
talk more about work and thingslike that do you have any kind
of timeframe or idea of what itmight be titled?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I have not.
I mean, I've got a bunch oftentative titles.
I have no idea when it's goingto be out.
I've just started writing prose.
I mean, the ideas are probablythree or four years old now and
I spent probably 18 monthsfiguring out how I was going to
frame this book so that it would, I hope, make sense to readers,
and I'm just starting toactually do the writing.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah, how do you structure your day for your best
work and outcomes?
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Like many people, I'm most productive in the morning,
and so things that are morechallenging and I think are
harder for me, I do those in themorning and then the afternoons
.
Yeah, things that are moreroutine.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
And like everyone else, like all the standard
advice I think is pretty goodadvice.
If you're trying to writesomething, you just have to
write every day and you can'twait until you feel like it.
You can't wait until you feelinspired, you just have to sit
down and write terribly and thenrevise.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Well, thank you so much for your time, dr
Willingham, and we will put thelinks to your books in the show
notes, especially the one ofOutsmart your Brain.
Is there any other way thatlisteners can follow you or keep
in contact with the work thatyou're doing?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
contact with the work that you're doing.
Yeah, I mean I'm on.
I'm on there.
I have a website, danielWillingham dot com, that I
infrequently update.
I'm on Facebook and Twitter orX, sorry now at DT Willingham.
I'm on TikTok at Danielunderscore Willingham, which is
has been hilarious, by the way,for me to be on TikTok, so I've
(28:31):
been having great fun with that.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Good for you.
I'm not even on TikTok, but Iknow many of the listeners are,
so they'll love, love going andfinding you there.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
There's a story behind that and, like, once
we're off air, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Oh, sounds good.
Thank you so much for your time.
I appreciate it so much.
It's been a pleasure, thanks.
When we talk about the fourareas of attraction and the four
areas of how we can personallywork to be our best selves, it's
the areas of physical,intellectual, emotional and
spiritual, and in today'sepisode we really covered a lot
(29:06):
about the intellectual part ofgrowth and of personal
development and ultimately thatwill translate down the line to
being a more attractive personintellectually as well.
When we think about learningand memory, there are definitely
things that we can begin doingto learn better, to retain
information and many of thosethings Dr Willingham discussed
(29:27):
in our episode today.
I love these three keytakeaways from today's episode.
The first one was when DrWillingham said everyone should
be thoughtful in how they wantto grow, how they want to learn,
what they want to learn, whothey want to continue to become.
These are key areas that we asindividuals should actually
(29:51):
spend some time thinking about.
I actually have a friend one ofour team members on the
Marriage Helper team gave methis journal and I really
appreciate the gift that he gavethis to me and it's a journal
that there's not really anythingin it.
It doesn't have words on it,you can kind of use it however
(30:11):
you want to, but the idea of itis to create a theme or themes
for your months or for your yearand to really be thoughtful,
before you ever start writing inthe journal, of what are the
things that you want to focus on, to improve in each area of
your life.
And that's kind of the promptof the beginning of it to sit,
(30:32):
to take time to think, to reallyput careful consideration into
how we can continue to grow anddevelop.
And so just this morning I wassitting here and thinking I need
more time to think about whereare the areas of my life that
I'm frustrated with myself,where are the areas of growth
and development that I couldconsider taking into account and
(30:57):
working towards through therest of this year?
Because if we don't start takingcontrol of our life in a
healthy way, then our life willtake control of us.
We're never going to be able tofully control our circumstances
outside environment, thingsthat happen to us.
We're never going to be able tofully control our circumstances
outside environment, thingsthat happen to us.
We don't, we can't, we can'tcontrol those things, but we can
(31:21):
control our actions and ourbehaviors.
We can't control other people,but we can control ourselves and
we can work towards becomingthe best we can be, and this
applies to the areas we want tolearn more as well.
So, being thoughtful and howyou want to grow intellectually
and taking time into thinking,whether it's with your career or
(31:43):
hobbies that you have, or yourhome life or ways that you want
to help raise your kids andteach your kids, if you want to
get to the next level, what arethe things you need to learn?
I'll give a perfect example ofmy current life, of how this
statement hit me today.
So, as a CEO of a company, oneof the main roles that I have
other than vision casting, otherthan helping to build and
(32:06):
maintain an amazing culture formy team and pouring into them
and developing leaders withinthe team All of that is
incredibly important.
But another important part ofrunning a company is Ashflow and
financial management, and this,admittedly, has been something
that I've pretty muchhistorically just handed off to
an accountant and trusted thatthey understood what they were
(32:27):
doing.
But I've actually been doing alot of reading and learning over
the past month now intodifferent ways to look at profit
and loss statements, differentways to think about how to look
at certain financialmeasurements in a business, and
it's been incredibly eye openingfor me, to the point to where I
mean.
I won't get into all thedetails now, but last night I
(32:49):
was explaining some of thesethings to my husband and in
talking about how so manycompanies are, you know, focused
on this certain revenue metricwhen in reality, that revenue
metric doesn't matter at all,like, at the end of the day, a
company could be making $100million a year and could still
be in debt, right.
And so how can we look at it ina better way?
So what are some of thosebetter metrics to look at?
(33:10):
And my husband looked at me andhe said you doing this is
expanding and increasing yourleadership lid.
Now, the leadership lid conceptis from John Maxwell and he
talks about the laws ofleadership and how an
organization can grow only asmuch as the capability of the
leader of it, and so everyleader hits a lid, and once you
(33:34):
hit your lid, it stunts thegrowth of the organization,
right?
But the same is true with us inour personal lives.
We all have current lids on ourpersonal development and if we
don't continue to try and pushpast that, to grow ourselves, to
understand and learn more, tobe able to push past our current
lid or to elevate our currentlid and increase it, then we are
(33:57):
going to continue to be stuckin certain ways and in certain
areas.
So what are the things that youneed to learn to help you to
become more of the person thatyou want to be?
The second key takeaway I hadfrom our conversation is you
can't get good if you don't havehigh quality feedback.
And how often in our lives dowe push off hearing critical
(34:23):
feedback Not critical in thesense of maybe let me say it
this way how often in our livesdo we push off critiques and
feedback critiques of what wedid and how we could do it
better?
Not the critical kind where thepeople are like what's wrong
with you and you and they startattacking us, you know, equating
(34:44):
us with the work that we did.
That's not what I'm talkingabout but positive critiques
like tell me what I could dobetter.
This is the only way.
That might be a strongstatement.
This is a very important way tobe able to grow and to get
better at what we do.
So a couple of months ago, I wasspeaking and giving a
presentation at a conference inCosta Rica to a group of
(35:07):
marketing agency owners, and Ilistened like I left that stage
feeling amazing about what I did, and I got great feedback and I
really do think that one of theways that I am gifted if this
is so weird to say, becausepeople don't like bragging about
themselves, but I do believethat I do have an ability to
(35:30):
speak and I think it's somethingmy dad has poured into me, but
I do think it's something thatGod has given me as well, and
not just because of me, butbecause, for whatever reason,
this is what God would like meto do with my life, and it's not
about me, it's all about whatGod does, and my mouth just
happens to be the voice piece ofit.
(35:51):
And by no means am I the bestor do I even think that it's me
in my power that's doing thiswell.
But when I got off that stage Ithought, man, like that was
that was.
I think I really delivered itwell.
I believe I did a good job.
I believe it hit well with theaudience, and so I was proud of
(36:11):
the work that I did.
But there's always room forgrowth right.
And so I went back and Ilistened back through the
presentation and all like therewas at least five things in the
first three minutes that Ithought I can do that better.
I can do that better.
I can't believe that I talkedthat fast.
I could have had a strongeropening statement.
(36:32):
My voice was a little shaky inthe in the first three minutes,
right Like I just went throughwith different ears and decided
this is one of the hardestthings to do is to go back and
listen to me, do something likethat, or go back and listen to
the podcast that I do listen tomyself speak.
It's very difficult because ofthese reasons.
(36:54):
When you listen back through it, it feels like it's almost
never good enough.
But it's the only way tocontinue to grow is by receiving
feedback, either from otherpeople or from myself, and so I
actually took that speech and Isent it to people who I really
respect their opinion and theirfeedback, and I asked them to
critique it for me.
So a question for you here iswhere can you be more proactive
(37:19):
in asking for critical, positivefeedback in your life?
Not from the people who arejust going to push you down and
make you feel crappy aboutyourself, but from people you
know love you care about you andhave the expertise to give you
good feedback in that situation.
But also, where can you be morereceptive to feedback that
(37:40):
people are already trying togive you?
That's my second key takeawayfrom today, and then my third
key takeaway is stop themultitasking.
I am, admittedly, absolutelyterrible at multitasking.
I am infamous for doing mymorning walks while listening to
an audio book and trying toeither read an article or
research something on theinternet, and it never fails
(38:02):
that I, if I'm trying to readsomething while listening to
something, I will get about fiveminutes into that and realize I
don't know a thing this personhas said in the past five
minutes, and I have to back mypodcast up or back the audio
book up in order to actuallylisten, and so I know that I
need to only do one thing at atime.
(38:23):
But, just like Dr Willinghamsaid, the stress, the pressure
to try and feel productive or toget a bunch of stuff done can
lead us to make some very notwise decisions in the way that
we use our time and in the waythat we multitask, and so I love
what his feedback was.
For the things that are verycrucial, that matter a lot, then
(38:45):
don't multitask on those items.
If you wouldn't advise yourfriend to multitask in the
middle of that important thing,then don't do it yourself, right
?
But maybe for some of thethings that are more monotonous,
more routine, more rote thingsthat maybe you can multitask and
if you mess it up a little bitit doesn't matter as much maybe
(39:06):
shopping Amazon while alsolistening to a podcast then
maybe those things are a littlebetter to multitask.
But, as always, we should neverdrive and do any of those other
things while on our phone.
Just public service announcement.
Because I love each and everyone of you, I hope you enjoyed
today's episode.
I know it's a little bitdifferent than what we've
typically been talking about,but intellectual attraction is
(39:28):
important and investing inourselves and our growth
abilities is an important partof how we can become the best
that we can be and live the lifethat we are called to in the
fullest extent of what God hasplanned out for us.
Loved having you on.
Share this episode with afriend.
Would love if you would leave areview and, until next week,
stay strong.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.