October 14, 2025 • 42 mins
What happens when you flip the mic from healthcare workers to the people who help place them? In this Behind Recruitment Special of It Takes Heart, we sit down with global recruitment coach Sophie Robertson to explore what 'good' really looks like in recruitment and why it matters more than ever.
With three decades in the industry, Sophie shares how curiosity, consistency and care separate truly impactful recruiters from the rest. From asking better questions to creating 'moments of truth' in every interaction, Sophie invites us to rethink recruitment as a relationship, not a transaction. She explains why price alone can’t be the north star in healthcare hiring, and how agencies that audit their candidate and client experience are raising the bar.
This episode is for anyone working in recruitment, hiring through agencies, or simply curious about how service-first hiring can create safer, happier healthcare.
More about Sophie's Organisation of Choice, National Centre for Childhood Grief
The National Centre for Childhood Grief (NCCG) is an Australian not-for-profit organisation dedicated to caring for bereaved children and their families following the death of a parent, sibling or other close loved one. Their individual and group counselling programs help bereaved children and their families learn to live with their grief, build their coping skills and resilience and be empowered to live their best life.
Follow Sophie on Linkedin.
It Takes Heart is hosted by cmr CEO Sam Miklos, alongside Head of Talent and Employer Branding, Kate Coomber.
We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso
Get to know cmr better!
Follow @ittakesheartpodcast on Instagram, @cmr | Cornerstone Medical Recruitment on Linked In, @cornerstonemedicalrec on TikTok and @CornerstoneMedicalRecruitment on Facebook.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Miklos (00:00):
With so many new agencies entering the market
every single week, how does acustomer choose what great looks
like in a recruitment agency?
Sophie Robertson (00:08):
And they said, well, that's how we've all just
done it.
I said, no, no, but why do youdo it like that?
They're like, I don't know.
It's just the way we do it.
And I think, wow, that is soinefficient.
Because you're actually makingthe candidate do the work.
How does a candidate know fromlooking at a hundred different
positions which one is right forthem?
So to answer your questionabout what should a candidate
(00:28):
look for, I think they shouldlook for a consultant that
actually knows who they are andwhy they want to do the work
they want to do in the placesthey want to do and how long.
Kate Coomber (00:36):
If you want to hear more of these stories,
don't forget to hit follow andsubscribe so you don't miss an
episode.
And follow us on It Takes HeartInstagram page for all the
behind-the-scenes fun.
Mu (00:45):
We care for the land and sea
Sam Miklos (00:51):
So It Takes Heart typically shines a light on
healthcare workers making adifference across the country of
Australia.
But today we are taking aslightly different approach.
As a recruitment agency, weconnect those healthcare
professionals to the communitiesthat need the most.
She works with recruitmentagencies around the world.
(01:30):
Welcome to It Takes Heart,Sophie.
Sophie Robertson (01:32):
Oh my God, is it me that you just described?
Sam Miklos (01:37):
You know, usually when you get on the panel and
you had to send your thing, youhad to send us anything.
Kate Coomber (01:41):
I haven't sent us anything just no.
Well, thank you.
Sam Miklos (01:45):
Your reputation precedes you.
Kate Coomber (01:46):
It does.
We are very lucky to have youin here.
Lucky.
For a few days this week tospend some time with our team.
So we thought, what anopportunity to sit with you and
actually share a little bitabout your journey and some of
your insights.
I thought it would be quiteinteresting for our audience.
But maybe we can start withSophie.
Who is Sophie Robertson?
Oh my god, how far do you wantme to go about it?
Sam Miklos (02:06):
I know, right?
I don't know.
Well, how did you get intorecruitment?
Why did you get intorecruitment?
Sophie Robertson (02:13):
Okay, so I was born in Hong Kong from parents
in Shanghai, and we left therewhen I was just before I turned
five, went to Denmark, was inDenmark for a bit, then we went
to Canada, then we went to theStates, and then back to
Denmark, and then I came toAustralia.
Sam Miklos (02:27):
Why did you move around so much?
Sophie Robertson (02:29):
Um My mum didn't Okay, so from Hong Kong
to Denmark, my dad was offered apost at the University of
Copenhagen.
And I mean Denmark, wow, youknow.
So we went there, but back thenyou couldn't really buy Chinese
groceries.
Yeah.
So my mum didn't like it.
Right.
So then we went to Canada.
Right.
If that makes sense.
It sounds so weird, but that'sthat's it in recruitment.
(02:51):
If the partners don't havefamily, they're not gonna stay.
And it was too cold.
She was just like, it's toocold, language is too hard, plus
I can't cook Chinese.
Okay, weird.
Kate Coomber (03:00):
But yeah.
Right.
Did I hear you went to tenschools?
I did in ten years orsomething.
Sophie Robertson (03:05):
Yeah.
So I think that's actually whatmade has made me successful in
recruitment and maybe just theability to I guess suss people
out and read a room, if thatmakes sense.
Because I think going to manydifferent schools, you have to
kind of figure out who's whovery quickly and what's going
on.
Yeah, very adaptable.
(03:26):
And also in different countriesand different languages.
So do you speak a lot oflanguages?
Not really.
I mean I speak Danish and uh Ispeak Shanghainese not well.
That's my worst language of allof them.
So yeah.
So then how'd recruitmentbecome Okay, so I came to
Australia and someone said,You'd be good in recruitment?
And I'm like, what'srecruitment?
And then I applied for a joband got one um yeah, the rest is
(03:51):
history, as they say.
18 years.
Sam Miklos (03:55):
18 years in recruitment.
Temp recruiting.
What industry?
Sophie Robertson (03:59):
Uh I started in business support and
accounting and then later on Imean became branch manager was
insane now when I think aboutit, because I actually became
branch manager twelve monthsinto my recruitment career.
Kate Coomber (04:10):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (04:11):
I mean, what did I even know?
Yeah.
Why?
How many people were youlooking at?
New to the country, new to justthree?
But they were all older than meand all had more recruitment
experience than me.
Yeah.
So I'm sure they was kind oflike, who's this?
Who's this?
It's a young upstart, right?
Sam Miklos (04:27):
That happened to me.
Sophie Robertson (04:28):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (04:28):
Six months in.
Yeah, yeah.
Sophie Robertson (04:30):
It's crazy, right?
But I think what actually whatdid actually happen was um
actually you know him, my bossat the time, Nigel.
Nigel.
Uh so when I I actuallypreceded Nigel at Echo, so it
was Echo Personnel, which is nowat Echo.
And Nigel came in six monthsinto my career there, and he
(04:50):
basically, which has I was superimpressed by this and still am,
is he traveled around to everybranch and would sit with all of
us.
And you have to understand, Iwas a rookie recruiter, I barely
knew what I was doing.
And he basically he looked atme and went, What do you want
from this company?
What can we do for you?
And that has stayed with me.
And I basically said you knowat that point?
(05:11):
Yeah.
I said, I want to make moremoney and I want a promotion.
And he went, We can do that.
But his favorite story is ofcourse when I came in, there
were, I don't know, 60 staff,and when he was done, there was
I think there were nine, but itwas less than ten.
Because his motto was always,it's better to have no staff
than bad staff.
Yeah.
So that's how I grew up inrecruitment.
(05:35):
But it was fun.
It was really fun.
What do you think is reallymisunderstood about recruitment?
Uh I think that we don't care,but that really annoys me and
always has is that it's allabout the commission and the
money.
Um because the people that arereally good at it, I think,
that's not their first priority.
It never is.
(05:55):
And as you guys might know orremember from training years
ago, you know, I have a sayingwhich is service, service,
service.
And money will follow.
Yeah.
And everybody I ever coach, Isay to them, if you think about
the money first, you won't dowell.
Because when you think aboutthe money, you think about
yourself.
But you need to think aboutthem.
Yeah.
Like the client and thecandidate.
Yeah.
Because that's who it's about.
(06:16):
And I would say to people,can't you tell when people are
there for themselves?
And they go, Oh yeah, yeah, Ican.
I'm like, okay, so what are youdoing?
Right?
Because the people you'redealing with can tell that
you're just there for yourself.
100%.
People can tell.
Sam Miklos (06:30):
Has the role of recruiter changed?
Or how has it changed from whenyou were recruiting?
Like I think about when Istarted in the UK, there was
signs up in the window for thejobs and Oh yeah.
Sophie Robertson (06:40):
Well, we never had um shopfront.
Oh, actually that's not true.
I had a shopfront in Blacktown.
That was really hard.
But um only because yeah, thatuh some some of my consultants
they were actually a bit scaredof being there.
Yeah.
Because it's, you know,sometimes maybe not the safest
area.
But yeah.
And if you're saying no topeople.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And people just come in.
Yeah.
So that's why we actually wentaway from the shopfront.
(07:02):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (07:02):
But so people Has the role then changed of of a
recruiter or do you thinkfundamentally it's the same?
Sophie Robertson (07:08):
I think recruiters have changed it.
And I don't think always forthe better, if that makes sense,
right?
And so I always think aboutrecruiters in different buckets,
if that makes sense.
I think there's like thetransactional recruiter, and
then I think there's the onesthat are very
relationship-based.
Yeah.
And of course I've always beenthere.
But I was I used to say topeople, look, I'm not being
(07:29):
judgy because I think there'sroom, there has been room for
that whole range, but I don'tthink there is anymore.
I think with the advent oftech, I think the transactional
recruiter and I say to them, ifyou were never convinced um that
relationships are worthworthwhile, it's now.
Sam Miklos (07:47):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (07:47):
And if you don't take that seriously, I I
actually think you're going tobe redundant.
Sam Miklos (07:52):
Yeah.
unknown (07:53):
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (07:53):
What's that real impact to to customers bottom
line?
So in a time when there is AIand and they might be thinking
we can do a lot of thisourselves, we can get a lot of
efficiencies.
I guess where do you see themost value of someone engaging
with a recruitment agency toreally impact their, you know,
obviously their workforce, butultimately saving money?
Sophie Robertson (08:15):
Well if you're looking at, say, for example,
doctors and nurses, right?
They care for people.
Now, if they don't get theright people in, there might be
incidents, right?
There are incidents.
Um if the medication is notcorrect, you know, all those
things.
So when things go wrong, itcosts money to fix things.
So do you know what I mean?
(08:37):
Like if care has to beextended, that costs money.
So yes, maybe you can get anapp.
And I think about this a lot,it's like getting Uber Eats,
right?
So you get Uber Eats, you canget something in the door, maybe
you can get a nurse in thedoor, but do you really know who
that person is?
Has the compliance been doneproperly?
Has that does that personactually have a care factor?
I mean, those things will costmoney, right?
(08:59):
If something goes wrong, itcosts money.
If you have uh, say you need aGP in a clinic, right?
This happens a lot, where theyneed an extra GP and they're
like, uh, the clinic might thinkit's too expensive for us to
engage a recruiter because youknow we have to pay the fees, we
have to pay the doctor, etc.
But I always think about, okay,so if they can't cope with the
(09:20):
patient load, where do thosepatients go?
They go maybe to the GP clinicup the road.
What if they like that GPbetter?
Sam Miklos (09:27):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (09:27):
And then you've lost them.
Sam Miklos (09:28):
Then you've lost them for good.
Sophie Robertson (09:29):
Right?
So I think from there's a fewthings to think about.
I think there's the patientcare, but there's also the
business side of because thereit is a business, right?
Running a GP clinic as well.
Yeah.
Or running a hospital.
Sam Miklos (09:42):
What about you know, we talk about the tip of the
iceberg and there's all thethings under the water that
recruiters do that no one sees.
Sophie Robertson (09:50):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (09:50):
What are those things?
Sophie Robertson (09:51):
Oh my goodness.
I I think a lot of it isactually building your your
networks and reading.
If that makes sense.
Reading, listening, justkeeping up with what's going on.
It's funny because a lot ofpeople saying to me, Oh, things
are getting really tight, andI'm not disputing that they are.
But you know, I've been in thebusiness so long that I say to
people, you know it's cyclical.
Sam Miklos (10:12):
Yeah.
Yes.
Sophie Robertson (10:13):
We are going through a cycle.
And at the moment the cycle iseveryone wants to take it
in-house and save money, right?
So we want to do withoutrecruiters.
And I said, Don't worry.
I've been here before.
Yeah.
And they all come back.
And then of course the nextquestion is, when?
When are they going to hour?
I said, that I don't knowbecause I think there's also
economic factors in the world,right?
Geopolitical and geoeconomicfactors.
Kate Coomber (10:36):
But I think when clients are um talking about
rates or or, you know, all ofour customers really margins, or
what's the hourly rate?
What else?
What are the other questionsthat you know customers really
need to be asking to understand?
Sophie Robertson (10:51):
So I think one thing that recruiters really
need to learn is to ask theclient is the rate the most
important thing?
Like what things are youwilling to trade for that,
right?
Because are you willing totrade quality?
Are you willing to trade, okay,so I just heard this thing the
other day on the news, so youknow I'm Sydney based.
(11:11):
And in New South Wales, I heardthere's a task force now to
look into modern slavery inrelation to recruitment agencies
and particularly in relation toaged care, right?
So my ears kind of pricked upbecause it's recruitment
related, but also because Ialready knew I was coming here,
right?
And I thought, oh, I wonder ifyour clients know about that.
(11:31):
And if it's in New South Wales,it must be in every state.
In every other state.
So I guess the questions theclients need to think about is
when they say we want thecheapest, how far are they
willing to go?
Are they willing to go tomodern slavery?
Are they willing to go to lessum care for the patient?
I mean what it's always a risk.
Kate Coomber (11:55):
And in healthcare the stakes are so high.
They're too high.
You know, when you get itwrong, it goes astronomically
wrong.
Sophie Robertson (12:01):
Yeah.
I mean what I've always lovedabout CMR is I remember s
hearing Sam say years ago aboutwould you have this person look
after your mother?
Yeah, 100%.
Kate Coomber (12:11):
No, but I think that's great.
I remember you're up in Cairnsand and one of our nurses
actually were looking after arelative of yours up there and
you met someone in CMR.
Sam Miklos (12:21):
I I no, I wasn't actually up there, so you're
fine.
My aunt was very unwell and sheended up passing away.
And um my aunt said to my mumin walk to two of the CMR
nurses, and my next thought was,Oh God, please let them have
been great quality.
And they spoke so highly of ourstaff.
And they've recently hadanother one where they've
they've been treated by apodiatrist of ours up there.
(12:42):
And I said it to the team,like, you never know where our
candidates are going to turn upand which one of your family
members are they gonna betreating.
And if you think about thatevery time you register someone
and send them out, it's adifferent conversation.
Sophie Robertson (12:53):
Yeah.
I always remembered you saidyou said that.
I actually may have quoted youto several people, but would you
want the in healthcare?
Because I think it's relevant,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, one thing is, you know,what I used to do like in
business support or in retail orin all the other sectors I've
been in, but I think yours isit's critical, right?
Because they're dealing withpeople, like literally lives.
(13:13):
Right?
And save lives.
Sam Miklos (13:15):
You know, with the cyclical nature, you just said
that, you know, we're in thistime.
And we've seen that with like aLinkedIn came in and everyone
was bringing it in-house, youdon't need recruiters.
And what advice though, I guessfor clients?
Like what are the learningsthat you've seen coming out of
some of those cycles whereclients have looked back and
gone, oh gosh, I wish I'd knownwhat I knew then, and maybe I
wouldn't have made some of thedecisions I did at that point to
(13:36):
cut back on costs.
Sophie Robertson (13:39):
Sometimes it's well, I don't know, I mean,
sometimes it's from above thatthey have to do that, right?
But I think, yeah, for them,it's funny because when you
asked that question, I wasactually thinking about what we
need to do on the recruitmentside during that time.
Yes.
So maybe it's okay if I startedstuck with that then, yeah.
Because that's kind of where mymind went, right?
Is when consultants panic,because they do, they're kind of
(14:02):
going, There's no business,they don't want us, and I'm
like, no, no, no, just calmdown.
First of all, find out how manyroles are they working on,
right?
Because a lot of them have alot on.
Sam Miklos (14:11):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (14:11):
And I said to them, Look, could you take on 50
roles?
There's no way you can do thatif you're a good recruiter and
you're doing a good job, right?
So say to them, don't look atme as your competition.
Look at me as an addition toyour team.
And I think recruiters shouldalways think about that.
It's not uh me versus you, it'sand, right?
(14:32):
It's and like I used to say topeople, hey, I've got 18 years
experience.
With one phone call, you canget that, but when you don't
need me, don't call me.
Like you know what I mean?
So I think from a recruitmentpoint of view, recruiters have
to think about that, right?
Is there's always business.
Sam Miklos (14:50):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (14:51):
And the the easy stuff, like the low-hanging
stuff, uh internally, you knowwhat?
They probably should do that.
Yes.
We don't need to be able to dothat.
We're there to help when it'sreally hard.
When it's hard.
And I say to people, that'swhen you also get tested.
Tell your clients, give me yourhard stuff, right?
And I think from the clientpoint of view, then to come to
your question of what can theclients learn is they also need
(15:14):
to think about it's not usversus them.
Sam Miklos (15:16):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (15:17):
It's actually us together.
Like, look, I have resourceshere that when I need, I can
call you and I can get that umexperience and the network and
you know everything, right?
But when I don't, it doesn'thave to be it's either you or
me.
It's us together.
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (15:34):
That comes down to the relationship piece, doesn't
it?
If it's not there, then youcan't have those open
conversations.
And it's sticking with theclients even when they don't
need you.
That's the most importantthing, is to stick with them.
Yeah.
Is to stick with them.
Sam Miklos (15:46):
Big question I've got is though, let's talk about
tech, AI, automation.
Is the role of the recruiterabout to be made redundant?
Sophie Robertson (15:55):
I don't think so.
Sam Miklos (15:56):
I love that you went in so quick with it.
Sophie Robertson (16:00):
I mean, I have to say, in my now three
decades, right, often there'sbeen things that have come up.
There's been job boards,there's been LinkedIn, there's
been different things, andpeople have said, oh, is the
recruiter going to be redundant?
And I've never even given it asecond thought, honestly.
Yeah.
Maybe for 10 seconds, right?
But this time with AI, I reallyhad to stop and think about it
(16:21):
seriously, and I've beenthinking about it a lot.
And I do think that previouslythere's been a market for the
whole gamut of no touch or lowtouch recruiter to very high
touch.
And I think AI now will takeover the no touch or low touch
recruiter.
I think to some extent thereare some clients, maybe even
yours, um, that are forcingrecruiters to be no touch or low
(16:46):
touch.
You know, the ones that say, Idon't want to talk to you.
Yes.
I'm just gonna email you.
And then you just upload, youjust upload stuff to me, right?
And there's no conversation.
Like I think that's very hard.
Um but I say to recruiters,there are things you can do,
which you should do anyway.
Like I think you can do qualitychecks.
(17:07):
I think you should always do anexit interview when someone's
been there, if it's on a locumbasis or temp basis.
Find out what they really wlike.
Because some clients I don'tknow whether they can't or they
won't articulate what theyreally like in a person.
Like they'll just say, Send mea nurse.
Yeah.
And I'm like, okay, well thereare many different types of
(17:28):
nurses, right?
I mean, I did some traininglast week and it was great
because the consultant said tome, Oh, it's great, because the
con the client rang up and said,Send me a nurse.
And she went, No, I rememberwhat you said, I had to ask
questions.
And she said, 20 minutes later,she said, I got this really
good brief and it was a mentalhealth nurse and it was for
these people, and and I said,And how how do you think the
(17:48):
conversation was for the client?
And she said, I think theyreally enjoyed it.
Kate Coomber (17:51):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (17:52):
Because no one else had asked them.
So sometimes it's almost like,can we create those
opportunities to ask?
Yeah.
And maybe it's not at thebeginning if they're trying to
do the no-touch thing.
Sam Miklos (18:03):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (18:04):
But if you're gonna look after, I mean I guess
particularly from a temp andlocum point of view, is if
you're gonna look after yourworkforce, because they are your
workforce, you need to makesure both they are happy and
also the client's happy, right?
So you have to talk to them.
Sam Miklos (18:19):
Yeah, you do.
You do.
No, you do.
And that's a challenge we havetoo, right?
Go through workforce.
And they're like, you need totalk to them.
Kate Coomber (18:25):
This is where you need to know all of the touch
points throughout a hospital ora health service.
It can't just be the oneperson, you've got to have all
of it.
So if you're talking about, youknow, l low touch recruiting,
that transactional recruiter issort of on the way out.
Um what are the really keytraits that you feel a
successful recruiter needs tohave now?
Today.
Yeah.
Curiosity.
Sam Miklos (18:45):
From the talent acquisition.
Kate Coomber (18:46):
Curiosity.
Curiosity.
Sophie Robertson (18:48):
Yeah.
Uh I like to dis I like to sayto people, do you remember?
Oh, maybe you don't remember,we don't remember when we were
five.
But we've been with afive-year-old.
And you know how they ask you athousand questions.
And they just say why.
And I said, we are like that,but we learn to ask the
questions in a better way,right?
But that curiosity, becausethere's always another question.
(19:09):
And I think you need peoplethat can be curious, can uh
establish relationships, andalso know that if someone says
no, because people are gonna sayno, that it just means no not
yet.
That it's not, oh no, they hateme.
I'm not gonna call them.
Well, no today, no, in thiscase.
Kate Coomber (19:27):
And that you know, our customers are standing on a
on a health floor.
Yeah.
They're not sitting at a desk alot of the time.
Yeah.
You know, there's a lot ofchallenges to overcome there.
And it's about reading the roomof when's the right time.
Exactly.
Sophie Robertson (19:42):
I think curiosity, um what else?
I don't know, are yourecruiting for perm or local?
Sam Miklos (19:48):
Both.
Well, our recruiter, well,yeah, because you're right,
you're temp recruiter or yourperm recruiter, they're
different.
Sophie Robertson (19:53):
They're different.
I think if you're uh recruitingfor temp, I like problem
solvers.
And I say to people, don'tthink of your job as a job
placer.
That's not your job.
Yeah.
That's just kind of like butfind out what the problems are
that your clients have.
And you can't find that outunless you talk to them.
I mean, sometimes I've evenasked during my career, tell me
(20:15):
what what's the one thing ifsomeone could solve and maybe
it's not me.
And sometimes clients have saidthings where I was just like,
okay, I have no idea about that.
But then I've gone away andthought about it and come back
and said, Have you thought aboutthis?
Yes.
And maybe it's sometimes thingswe could provide, sometimes
it's not, it doesn't matter.
They know you're on their team,right?
That you're thinking about it.
I mean, I I do think temprecruiters have to be your
(20:39):
strong BD people, so they haveto really have the tenacity to
really build those relationshipsand stay in there for the long
haul, right?
That it's not just if I can'tget something today, I have to
keep you know, because I have toget to know you over time.
And I think that's been lost.
Like I often ask a consultant,tell me a fun fact about one of
(21:02):
your nurses.
And they go, What do you mean?
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (21:05):
It's because everything's on demand, right?
Sophie Robertson (21:07):
We don't know, but w they know everything
maybe about their skills.
And I'm like, what about themas a person?
Kate Coomber (21:14):
Yeah.
Not asking the questions.
Sophie Robertson (21:16):
And it's not until I say to them, or
sometimes, you're much more thanwhat you are here at work.
And they go, Oh yeah, ofcourse.
And I say, So are your tips?
Yes.
Do you know anything aboutthem?
And you could say equally thesame about the clients.
They are also much more thanthey are in workforce admin or
whatever.
Who are they?
Sam Miklos (21:38):
That curiosity is really important too.
If you think back, we were at aconference last week and I
think it was Greg Savage wastalking about, you know, just
the rubbish that's gonna comefrom AI and you know, candidates
that are just uploading CVsthat are matched, and like as a
recruiter, that's where thatcuriosity is so important to be
able to to cipher through andask more questions and and
(21:59):
really make sure that then wecan provide a a better level of
quality for our customers whenif that's what they're getting,
they're gonna get so much noisein the next couple of years that
they won't be able to trustwhat's right and what's wrong,
what's true and what's false.
Sophie Robertson (22:12):
Well, I don't know, did you two hear about I
mean in America it's allegedthere was some some story about
that there are there's so muchdeep fakes going on in AI that
when they apply for jobs youcan't be sure that they are who
they are.
Like even the face andeverything, the voice, there's
nothing, you know.
I mean we talk in um in my timeabout people lying on their
(22:34):
resume, but this is so much thisis a whole other bowling,
right?
And I mean your job and yourspecialty is reading people,
getting the story out of them.
Can a piece of tech do that?
I don't think it can do it yet.
I'm not gonna speak aboutwhether it can in the future,
but not yet.
And that is the value that weadd, right, as recruiters.
(22:57):
Because I don't know, and Imean a lot of your clients I
imagine, unless their job is torecruit, um, like you know, if
it's a numb or something, theirjob, they have other things to
do, right?
Sam Miklos (23:08):
Yeah.
Whereas your expertise.
Sophie Robertson (23:11):
No, but also it's also maybe not their
specialty, right?
Whereas it's your expertise andyour specialty.
It's like getting us toadminister medicine.
I mean, what do you know aboutthat?
Kate Coomber (23:20):
I'm not going near that.
This is where recruiters needto hold the confidence to have
these conversations and knowtheir value that the the volume
that they're doing here is morethan what the client would be
doing on that one-on-one level.
Yeah.
You know, the amount of peoplethat they speak to, if they're
truly being curious, the amountof things that they know and can
offer is quite a lot.
What about from a client?
(23:41):
So, you know, there have beenso many agencies in the last
five years.
It seems a huge influx ofagency in healthcare.
We have noticed it.
On every tender, there's more,you know, it's more competitive
than ever.
How do how does a customernavigate that?
You know, if we feel it, theymust feel it.
How do they sort out the goodfrom the bad?
Yeah.
What should they be looking forfrom both a candidate
(24:03):
perspective but also a clientperspective?
You know, what what should theylook for?
Sophie Robertson (24:07):
So I quite like companies that are, I guess
they can look to members ofprofessional associations, you
know, whether it's Amrance orRCSA or ABSCO or whatever,
because at least then there is acomeback if something should
happen.
I used to say that to peopleduring my career, right?
It's like being a CPA.
If you're not happy with me,you can complain.
You know what I mean?
So maybe it's that I thinkpeople that invest in compliance
(24:31):
that you know is good, um, thatdo it well.
But also, how many people areprepared to say your name out
loud?
Because I say to people, thatis the best, is when people will
say your name out loud to otherpeople, right?
So, yes, there's a lot of newentrants, and I hate to say this
to you too, because um youprobably but what I say to
(24:52):
healthcare people is I feel likeyou're in your sector's just
caught up, whereas in othersectors they've had all that.
You know, it's been saturated,and for you guys, yes it's true,
but it's only lately.
It's only actually lately,right?
So I know it's different foryou to navigate and different
for your clients to navigate,but it's always the same, is
(25:12):
there will people that will doit faster, cheaper, but is it
better?
And that's what they've got towork out is do I want price, do
I want quality, do I want is itpossible to get all of it in
one?
Probably not.
Right?
I think life is like that.
You choose the cheapest onegive you the best.
No.
Yeah.
So uh if you want the cheapest,then I think you as uh
(25:36):
providers, you get to decide isthat what we want to do?
Is that what we want to getknown for, right?
Because again, when I look atany market, you think, well,
there's uh a customer for atwo-dollar shop, and there's a
customer for you know whateverthe luxury is.
And there's probably room forall of us, you know, for all of
those.
And you get to decide, where doI sit in that?
Sam Miklos (25:59):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (25:59):
So you can become known for maybe we are
the super high touch, supervalue ads, you know.
People can come to us to ask usquestions, not just to provide
staff.
I feel like sometimes staff inmy career has been almost like
the side thing.
Yes, right?
Sam Miklos (26:14):
I would agree.
Yes.
And I feel like that changedfor us in COVID, like prior to
COVID, that's how it was.
It was sort of like the secondthing where there was all about
the relationship and thesupport.
But then it sort of flipped tothis, we need sta staff, staff,
staff, staff, staff.
So then everyone's lost thatthat muscle of it.
It's become transactional andnow it's got to flip back.
Music (26:34):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (26:34):
You are in so many agencies across the country
every week.
What are the great thingsyou're seeing that agencies are
doing?
You you can just give us acouple of secrets.
Well, it's some great stuff.
Sophie Robertson (26:48):
Actually, you know what I really like, and
there's a couple of companiesthat I've been doing it for
recently, is and it doesn't haveto be me, it's not because of
that, but it's because of thatthat I know about it, right?
Is they're really lookingcritically at what they're
doing.
Because I think like you said,in that COVID era, a lot of
agencies, particularly in yoursector, just right, went
(27:09):
gangbusters.
Because of that, it's kind oflike we they had processes, but
they added people and thenpeople make it up, and so really
I mean I've been hired to do afew audits, or audit sounds so
serious, but where I've actuallygone and looked at what they
did from beginning to end from acustomer experience point of
view from both the client andthe candidate.
And that's been superinteresting actually for me.
(27:32):
Because like I've looked atthings and then I've said to
them, Well, do you did you meanto do this?
And they're like, No, we had noidea we were doing that, right?
And it's not but you know whatI really admire is that they're
taking the time and I guessinvestment in doing it, and that
they want to do it well.
Sam Miklos (27:51):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (27:52):
Because at the end of the day, this is what I
believe, at the end of the day,the candidates and the clients,
right, their customer experienceis the most important thing.
But you get to decide what whatis the service we want to give
them.
Are we the five-star hotel orare we the motel on the, you
(28:14):
know, on the in the country ofthe road?
Yeah.
And there's room for all,right?
Because we need that motel justwhen we're there.
But when we provide thisservice, I think, you know, we
need to think about what do wewant to be known for?
And are we showing up at everystep?
Sam Miklos (28:30):
Yeah, every interaction is what we're
identifying.
And that's and that's reallytrue because the last few years
it has just been crazy, andwe've seen that.
Like we've had to stop, we'reliterally.
Kate Coomber (28:38):
So much too busy to die down, hasn't it?
Sam Miklos (28:41):
We've just this week stopped and started to go, that
doesn't make sense.
We're handing the batten herefor 50% and then back there for
the other 50%.
And then we're going over hereand saying, now you touch it,
and we've we've made this thesereally messy processes because
yeah, everyone's been so busy,it's just been tapping on the
next thing.
Just the doing, right?
Sophie Robertson (28:59):
Just the doing.
So uh yeah.
I think that's been yeah,that's been quite eye-opening, I
think.
And I think just to come backto your other question about
what should clients look for ingood agencies, I think there's a
lot, so it's connected, right?
People that do qualityassurance, you know, yeah,
whether it's ISO or whatwhatever it is, but they're
really looking at their processbecause then you can say to that
(29:22):
is why we are more expensive.
Yeah.
Because we take these thingsseriously, right?
And I think your company too, Imean, you also invest in your
people.
That's something that I wouldlook at if I was sitting on the
other side, because I'd be like,well, who are these people that
are recruiting people for me?
Yeah.
You know, are they the rightones?
Like I think this, yeah.
Sam Miklos (29:41):
What about a candidate then?
The flip, you know, if you ifyou're a candidate looking in,
what should they be looking for?
Because they're now got allthese agencies coming at them,
offering them the world.
Sophie Robertson (29:50):
I think the thing that candidates want first
and foremost has always been, Ithink that's still true, is
they want a job.
When they come to you, theywant the job, right?
Whether it's perma whether it'sa Whether it's TEP.
So can people actually providethem with jobs that are good for
them?
Are they listening to them?
Actually, so one thing thatreally surprised me, and I don't
know if you do this, but reallysurprised me with we don't, or
(30:13):
we do it with the first medicalagency I ever went to was
probably about twelve orthirteen years ago.
And I didn't realize this, andit's specific to medical, no one
else does this, is they justsend out all the jobs to all the
doctors, and then they choose.
And I'm like, okay.
And I said to them, why do youdo that?
And they said, Well, that's howwe've all just done it.
(30:34):
I said, No, no, but why do youdo it like that?
They're like, I don't know.
It's just the way we do it.
And I think, wow, that is soinefficient.
Because you're actually makingthe candidate do the work.
How does the candidate knowfrom looking at a hundred
different positions which one isright for them?
So to answer your questionabout what should a candidate
look for, I think they shouldlook for a consultant that
actually knows who they are andwhy they want to do the work
(30:57):
they want to do in the placesthey want to do and how long for
or whatever, right?
Sam Miklos (31:01):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:02):
Is again be more curious about them.
What is it that you want fromus?
And I say to people, look, ifyour candidates are with four or
five different agencies,they're still dating.
Sam Miklos (31:12):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:13):
They haven't found the one yet.
Why aren't you the one?
And the reason you're you'renot the one is because you don't
know what they want.
unknown (31:19):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:20):
You're not listening.
You're not listening.
Or maybe you're not curiousenough to find out.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
I mean, maybe you can't be theone, and that's also okay.
You just say, I can't do thatfor you.
But be honest.
I think that's what gives ourindustry a bad name is
Consultants say to me, I don'tlike to tell people we can't
help them.
I say, okay, so that means yousend them out the door and they
(31:42):
think they're going to hear fromyou and they never do.
Sam Miklos (31:44):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:44):
They go down the road, again, same thing
happens.
And then they just think, wedon't know what we're doing.
I'm like, I don't like that.
Be honest with people.
I can't help you because youhaven't got this certificate or
the right visa or whateverreason.
So that whole no-up date is anupdate.
Yeah.
So just because you can'thonest.
Don't sit on the fence.
A lot of people sitting on thefence.
And I think that's more nowthan before.
(32:05):
I think the generations nowthey don't like to offend
people.
And I I don't know why theyeven think of it as an offend
people.
Just being honest andtransparent.
Sam Miklos (32:16):
Yeah, that clarity is kind.
Sophie Robertson (32:18):
Yes.
Sam Miklos (32:19):
What are you hopeful or I guess excited about for
the future of recruitment?
You know, this this you've seenall these different cycles.
Like you said, the AI was onepiece that made you stop for a
minute.
What are you excited about forthe industry?
Sophie Robertson (32:34):
Oh, well, that's a good question.
What am I excited about?
I think I'm f interested in tosee how we're going to adapt.
Because if we don't adapt, Ithink we are actually in danger.
But I I don't know.
Honestly, I until they cancreate a robot that can do what
we can do, which is, you know,read all the nuances in a person
and in a client and all that.
(32:55):
I still think there's going tobe a room for recruiters.
But I do think that we have tonavigate it carefully now
because just because we canautomate something doesn't mean
we should.
Yes.
And it's funny because when Iupdated my book, um, you know, I
had different people write uhchapters in it, and one was a
tech person.
And we actually, Andrew and I,we had this conversation, right?
(33:18):
Because he's tech guru,totally, otherwise he wouldn't
have gotten near my book, right?
But I did say to him, like,certain things he was saying,
uh, you know, instead of uhspeaking to the temp on a weekly
basis, we can just text him.
And I'm like, Yeah, I'm like,okay, maybe once in a while, but
you still have to talk to him.
So we had this conversation,and he actually didn't it wasn't
that he disagreed with me atall, but you have to understand
(33:40):
his lens is tech, right?
Yes.
And my lens is totally home,but yeah.
So it was kind of like, ooh.
So where do we so it became,okay, so you could do this.
Music (33:49):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (33:49):
But in Sophie's chapter, it's very much
you you're doing it this way.
You have to get to know theperson.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I'm excited about I guesshow we evolve, but also, yeah, I
think we have to thinkcarefully about we don't need to
do things just because we can.
Sam Miklos (34:07):
That's so true.
Kate Coomber (34:08):
No, I think it's a really interesting point
because we all feel like we haveto do all of the things
sometimes because it's everchanging and we have to keep up
to date with so many things.
But yeah, sometimes it actuallyworked okay.
Sophie Robertson (34:22):
And you know, one of the um audits I did, it
was actually that.
Okay, so you've put in thesethings.
Yeah.
Is that really necessary?
Because it's just made itlonger.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I think from a candidateclient point of view, service to
me is consistency.
That's why I think it should bethe same every time.
But also you don't need to makeit more painful.
Sam Miklos (34:42):
Are we easy to do business with?
That's what we've been asking.
Yeah.
This is easy.
Yeah, but I want to deal withthis.
Sophie Robertson (34:47):
Not just easy, but is it actually pleasant?
Sam Miklos (34:50):
Yes.
Right.
Sophie Robertson (34:51):
Is it actually nice when I get a little update
from CMR or from whoever it is,you know?
In that way.
And is it the same voice?
Yeah.
Because that's something that,you know, was apparent to me too
from looking at a few differentcompanies, is they had
different voices inside the samecompany.
Yeah.
Like, are you consistent?
(35:11):
Yeah.
I'm very much into consistency.
It's it's a people think it'svery boring, and I'm like, but
if you think about whatexcellence is, I think it's
consistency.
Yeah.
And predictability.
Like when you go to a hotel,you're like, we go there because
we know about it.
It's going to be a certainthing.
And if it's suddenly different,we're like, what's happened?
Sam Miklos (35:28):
Yeah.
And leaning into those momentsthat matter.
Sophie Robertson (35:31):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (35:31):
Those human moments as well, where you can really
enhance those relationships andbuild.
I think that's also reallyimportant.
It's just is looking to behuman and and I think we'd heard
that last week, don't you know,automate a congrats you've had
a baby or whatever.
It's like actually using allthose opportunities to just the
moments that matter that arereally special in life.
I think that's where we canalso add that value.
Sophie Robertson (35:52):
Yeah.
Have you um do you know thatbook, Moments of Truth?
No.
So it's quite old.
But it's um SAS, it'sScandinavian Airline Systems.
So you know I grew up inDenmark, so it's like our
Qantas, right?
And um so Scandinavian airlinesystems, they were in trouble in
1979.
They had gone through a periodof, you know, profit, profit,
(36:13):
profit, and then suddenly theoil prices shot up, and then
yeah, they were in deficit.
They got a new CEO and he was31 at the time.
I always say that.
Jan Carlson.
And people thought, okay, he'sgonna buy new planes, he's gonna
cut staff, you know, do all thenormal things, right?
And he did the speech to thestaff where he just went he
talked about moments of truth,and he said, So I looked at um
(36:36):
all the moments of truth wherewe touch our passengers, and
there's five of them, and eachof them might only be fifteen
seconds, but they are whatmatter.
Oh, I just got goosebumps.
I'm thinking that too.
And and he went, I can't savethis airline, but you can.
I just totally got goosebumps.
And next year they were alreadyin profit.
(36:57):
So what he did was he flattenedthe structure, but he basically
said to the frontline staff, ifyou see something and you can
fix it, fix it.
You have my authority to fixit.
So they did.
And there's all these stories,so that's what I've been I
recently spoke at a conferencewhere I was very much talking
about moments of truth, becausein that company they've given
(37:17):
everyone 12 hours back on theirdesk, like through automation.
Yeah.
And I'm like, well, why do youneed me?
And they're like, Well, we justthought that they would um talk
more to our customers.
Yeah.
Can you talk to them aboutthat?
I said what are they doing withthose 12 hours?
Yes, I can.
And so I talked to them aboutmoments of truth because that's
what it is is that every touchpoint they have with you
(37:38):
matters, no matter how small itis, right?
And you know, people thinkthere's neutral.
I don't think there's neutral.
Every interaction, it actuallyeither adds or it's minus.
Sam Miklos (37:48):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (37:48):
But there's no neutral.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
People think you can just kindof Yeah love that.
I don't think there is.
Kate Coomber (37:54):
I was going to ask you, um we talk a lot about
happier healthcare recruitment,and you know, you've worked with
various sectors acrossrecruitment, but in healthcare
specifically, what that means.
But I almost think that thatmoments of truth is the thing
that can really make adifference in healthcare.
If you think about the servicethat agencies like us provide,
(38:15):
but also the healthcarecommunity with each other,
that's what's needed.
Those moments of truth to JoanCarlson.
Sophie Robertson (38:23):
It's worth reading.
And it's a tiny little book.
Yeah.
I read it in one sittingbecause it was just, wow.
What's happening?
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (38:30):
Put that on the book behind on the bookshelf behind
you now.
Music (38:34):
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (38:35):
So see if I'll donate to a charity with every
episode.
Where can we send that money tofor you?
Sophie Robertson (38:41):
Oh, some okay, so I've thought about this.
Yeah.
And um but now I have to tellyou go back to the beginning.
Go back to the beginning.
So the reason why I stoppedbeing in recruitment and started
doing what I was doing wasbecause my husband uh died
suddenly of a heart attack, andour children at the time were
four and eight.
Oh my goodness.
(39:01):
And um yeah, so anyway, Ifigured I have to be around and
I thought, I'll do coaching.
So that's how this happened.
But a friend of mine who was as who's a psychologist
counsellor, she actually she's afriend of mine now, but she was
kind of a little bit adjacentat the time.
And she gave one of my bestfriends a list and said,
Sophie's not ready for it yet,but when she is and you'll know
(39:24):
when, give her this list.
And it was a list of placeswhere you could take your
children for bereavementcounselling.
Right.
And so I rang them all.
And the one that I rang, whichis um the National Centre for
Childhood Grief, so that's thecharity.
You know when you ringsomewhere and they answer all
your questions before you'veeven asked them?
(39:44):
And I knew that was the rightplace, right?
And they call themselves afriend's place.
So if ever your children areasked where are you going, they
can say, I'm going to a friend'splace.
Yeah.
And they don't have to explainto where they're going.
Sam Miklos (39:57):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (39:57):
Yeah.
So I took both um my sons therefor a while.
Wow.
Thank you.
And it's free.
Sam Miklos (40:03):
Really?
Sophie Robertson (40:04):
It's free, yeah.
For the children it's free.
Yeah, good.
Wow.
And it's a group in a group.
Yeah.
Because they say kids, the mostimportant thing for them is
that they um are like everyoneelse.
So when uh you have a parentdie, you're kind of like the
kids whose dads did.
But when you go there, you'rejust like everybody else.
(40:24):
And some of them have actuallylost both parents.
Sam Miklos (40:26):
So it's thank you for sharing that with us.
I didn't know that about you.
Sophie Robertson (40:31):
Yeah, no, sorry, I couldn't really tell
you about a friend's placewithout going there because
you're gonna ask why did youpick the member?
Yeah.
Why are you gonna pick them?
Sam Miklos (40:38):
Thank you.
No, we would um proudly,proudly donate to that charity.
What a wonderful charity.
And thank you for being herewith us today.
Like, there's so much,honestly, there's so much
insight that you have, and thefact that you've seen just all
of the cycles of recruitment andyou continue to, you know,
remain optimistic.
And just all of the generationsof recruiters that have um been
(41:01):
touched by your training, yourcoaching, your mentoring, like
you are just such aninspiration, and the industry is
just so much richer for havingyou in it, you know.
Thank you.
You give so much.
Kate Coomber (41:13):
I'm really excited for our team to have time with
you this week.
It's a pleasure to have you inhere.
Let's keep jumping here andbring them forward, bring them
forward.
The stuff that you know Icertainly learned from you so
many years ago is the stuff thatI still talk about.
Yeah.
So it will stay for them to beable to do that.
Definitely.
Sophie Robertson (41:32):
And I'm gonna talk about some of those things
again tomorrow, you know, themindset rather than.
Sam Miklos (41:39):
And you are living proof of all of that.
So thank you.
Sophie Robertson (41:42):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Kate Coomber (41:48):
We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the
land of which we meet, who forcenturies have shared ancient
methods of healing and cared fortheir communities.
We pay our respects to elderspast and present.
With so many new agencies entering the market
every single week, how does acustomer choose what great looks
like in a recruitment agency?
Sophie Robertson (00:08):
And they said, well, that's how we've all just
done it.
I said, no, no, but why do youdo it like that?
They're like, I don't know.
It's just the way we do it.
And I think, wow, that is soinefficient.
Because you're actually makingthe candidate do the work.
How does a candidate know fromlooking at a hundred different
positions which one is right forthem?
So to answer your questionabout what should a candidate
(00:28):
look for, I think they shouldlook for a consultant that
actually knows who they are andwhy they want to do the work
they want to do in the placesthey want to do and how long.
Kate Coomber (00:36):
If you want to hear more of these stories,
don't forget to hit follow andsubscribe so you don't miss an
episode.
And follow us on It Takes HeartInstagram page for all the
behind-the-scenes fun.
Mu (00:45):
We care for the land and sea
Sam Miklos (00:51):
So It Takes Heart typically shines a light on
healthcare workers making adifference across the country of
Australia.
But today we are taking aslightly different approach.
As a recruitment agency, weconnect those healthcare
professionals to the communitiesthat need the most.
She works with recruitmentagencies around the world.
(01:30):
Welcome to It Takes Heart,Sophie.
Sophie Robertson (01:32):
Oh my God, is it me that you just described?
Sam Miklos (01:37):
You know, usually when you get on the panel and
you had to send your thing, youhad to send us anything.
Kate Coomber (01:41):
I haven't sent us anything just no.
Well, thank you.
Sam Miklos (01:45):
Your reputation precedes you.
Kate Coomber (01:46):
It does.
We are very lucky to have youin here.
Lucky.
For a few days this week tospend some time with our team.
So we thought, what anopportunity to sit with you and
actually share a little bitabout your journey and some of
your insights.
I thought it would be quiteinteresting for our audience.
But maybe we can start withSophie.
Who is Sophie Robertson?
Oh my god, how far do you wantme to go about it?
Sam Miklos (02:06):
I know, right?
I don't know.
Well, how did you get intorecruitment?
Why did you get intorecruitment?
Sophie Robertson (02:13):
Okay, so I was born in Hong Kong from parents
in Shanghai, and we left therewhen I was just before I turned
five, went to Denmark, was inDenmark for a bit, then we went
to Canada, then we went to theStates, and then back to
Denmark, and then I came toAustralia.
Sam Miklos (02:27):
Why did you move around so much?
Sophie Robertson (02:29):
Um My mum didn't Okay, so from Hong Kong
to Denmark, my dad was offered apost at the University of
Copenhagen.
And I mean Denmark, wow, youknow.
So we went there, but back thenyou couldn't really buy Chinese
groceries.
Yeah.
So my mum didn't like it.
Right.
So then we went to Canada.
Right.
If that makes sense.
It sounds so weird, but that'sthat's it in recruitment.
(02:51):
If the partners don't havefamily, they're not gonna stay.
And it was too cold.
She was just like, it's toocold, language is too hard, plus
I can't cook Chinese.
Okay, weird.
Kate Coomber (03:00):
But yeah.
Right.
Did I hear you went to tenschools?
I did in ten years orsomething.
Sophie Robertson (03:05):
Yeah.
So I think that's actually whatmade has made me successful in
recruitment and maybe just theability to I guess suss people
out and read a room, if thatmakes sense.
Because I think going to manydifferent schools, you have to
kind of figure out who's whovery quickly and what's going
on.
Yeah, very adaptable.
(03:26):
And also in different countriesand different languages.
So do you speak a lot oflanguages?
Not really.
I mean I speak Danish and uh Ispeak Shanghainese not well.
That's my worst language of allof them.
So yeah.
So then how'd recruitmentbecome Okay, so I came to
Australia and someone said,You'd be good in recruitment?
And I'm like, what'srecruitment?
And then I applied for a joband got one um yeah, the rest is
(03:51):
history, as they say.
18 years.
Sam Miklos (03:55):
18 years in recruitment.
Temp recruiting.
What industry?
Sophie Robertson (03:59):
Uh I started in business support and
accounting and then later on Imean became branch manager was
insane now when I think aboutit, because I actually became
branch manager twelve monthsinto my recruitment career.
Kate Coomber (04:10):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (04:11):
I mean, what did I even know?
Yeah.
Why?
How many people were youlooking at?
New to the country, new to justthree?
But they were all older than meand all had more recruitment
experience than me.
Yeah.
So I'm sure they was kind oflike, who's this?
Who's this?
It's a young upstart, right?
Sam Miklos (04:27):
That happened to me.
Sophie Robertson (04:28):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (04:28):
Six months in.
Yeah, yeah.
Sophie Robertson (04:30):
It's crazy, right?
But I think what actually whatdid actually happen was um
actually you know him, my bossat the time, Nigel.
Nigel.
Uh so when I I actuallypreceded Nigel at Echo, so it
was Echo Personnel, which is nowat Echo.
And Nigel came in six monthsinto my career there, and he
(04:50):
basically, which has I was superimpressed by this and still am,
is he traveled around to everybranch and would sit with all of
us.
And you have to understand, Iwas a rookie recruiter, I barely
knew what I was doing.
And he basically he looked atme and went, What do you want
from this company?
What can we do for you?
And that has stayed with me.
And I basically said you knowat that point?
(05:11):
Yeah.
I said, I want to make moremoney and I want a promotion.
And he went, We can do that.
But his favorite story is ofcourse when I came in, there
were, I don't know, 60 staff,and when he was done, there was
I think there were nine, but itwas less than ten.
Because his motto was always,it's better to have no staff
than bad staff.
Yeah.
So that's how I grew up inrecruitment.
(05:35):
But it was fun.
It was really fun.
What do you think is reallymisunderstood about recruitment?
Uh I think that we don't care,but that really annoys me and
always has is that it's allabout the commission and the
money.
Um because the people that arereally good at it, I think,
that's not their first priority.
It never is.
(05:55):
And as you guys might know orremember from training years
ago, you know, I have a sayingwhich is service, service,
service.
And money will follow.
Yeah.
And everybody I ever coach, Isay to them, if you think about
the money first, you won't dowell.
Because when you think aboutthe money, you think about
yourself.
But you need to think aboutthem.
Yeah.
Like the client and thecandidate.
Yeah.
Because that's who it's about.
(06:16):
And I would say to people,can't you tell when people are
there for themselves?
And they go, Oh yeah, yeah, Ican.
I'm like, okay, so what are youdoing?
Right?
Because the people you'redealing with can tell that
you're just there for yourself.
100%.
People can tell.
Sam Miklos (06:30):
Has the role of recruiter changed?
Or how has it changed from whenyou were recruiting?
Like I think about when Istarted in the UK, there was
signs up in the window for thejobs and Oh yeah.
Sophie Robertson (06:40):
Well, we never had um shopfront.
Oh, actually that's not true.
I had a shopfront in Blacktown.
That was really hard.
But um only because yeah, thatuh some some of my consultants
they were actually a bit scaredof being there.
Yeah.
Because it's, you know,sometimes maybe not the safest
area.
But yeah.
And if you're saying no topeople.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And people just come in.
Yeah.
So that's why we actually wentaway from the shopfront.
(07:02):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (07:02):
But so people Has the role then changed of of a
recruiter or do you thinkfundamentally it's the same?
Sophie Robertson (07:08):
I think recruiters have changed it.
And I don't think always forthe better, if that makes sense,
right?
And so I always think aboutrecruiters in different buckets,
if that makes sense.
I think there's like thetransactional recruiter, and
then I think there's the onesthat are very
relationship-based.
Yeah.
And of course I've always beenthere.
But I was I used to say topeople, look, I'm not being
(07:29):
judgy because I think there'sroom, there has been room for
that whole range, but I don'tthink there is anymore.
I think with the advent oftech, I think the transactional
recruiter and I say to them, ifyou were never convinced um that
relationships are worthworthwhile, it's now.
Sam Miklos (07:47):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (07:47):
And if you don't take that seriously, I I
actually think you're going tobe redundant.
Sam Miklos (07:52):
Yeah.
unknown (07:53):
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (07:53):
What's that real impact to to customers bottom
line?
So in a time when there is AIand and they might be thinking
we can do a lot of thisourselves, we can get a lot of
efficiencies.
I guess where do you see themost value of someone engaging
with a recruitment agency toreally impact their, you know,
obviously their workforce, butultimately saving money?
Sophie Robertson (08:15):
Well if you're looking at, say, for example,
doctors and nurses, right?
They care for people.
Now, if they don't get theright people in, there might be
incidents, right?
There are incidents.
Um if the medication is notcorrect, you know, all those
things.
So when things go wrong, itcosts money to fix things.
So do you know what I mean?
(08:37):
Like if care has to beextended, that costs money.
So yes, maybe you can get anapp.
And I think about this a lot,it's like getting Uber Eats,
right?
So you get Uber Eats, you canget something in the door, maybe
you can get a nurse in thedoor, but do you really know who
that person is?
Has the compliance been doneproperly?
Has that does that personactually have a care factor?
I mean, those things will costmoney, right?
(08:59):
If something goes wrong, itcosts money.
If you have uh, say you need aGP in a clinic, right?
This happens a lot, where theyneed an extra GP and they're
like, uh, the clinic might thinkit's too expensive for us to
engage a recruiter because youknow we have to pay the fees, we
have to pay the doctor, etc.
But I always think about, okay,so if they can't cope with the
(09:20):
patient load, where do thosepatients go?
They go maybe to the GP clinicup the road.
What if they like that GPbetter?
Sam Miklos (09:27):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (09:27):
And then you've lost them.
Sam Miklos (09:28):
Then you've lost them for good.
Sophie Robertson (09:29):
Right?
So I think from there's a fewthings to think about.
I think there's the patientcare, but there's also the
business side of because thereit is a business, right?
Running a GP clinic as well.
Yeah.
Or running a hospital.
Sam Miklos (09:42):
What about you know, we talk about the tip of the
iceberg and there's all thethings under the water that
recruiters do that no one sees.
Sophie Robertson (09:50):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (09:50):
What are those things?
Sophie Robertson (09:51):
Oh my goodness.
I I think a lot of it isactually building your your
networks and reading.
If that makes sense.
Reading, listening, justkeeping up with what's going on.
It's funny because a lot ofpeople saying to me, Oh, things
are getting really tight, andI'm not disputing that they are.
But you know, I've been in thebusiness so long that I say to
people, you know it's cyclical.
Sam Miklos (10:12):
Yeah.
Yes.
Sophie Robertson (10:13):
We are going through a cycle.
And at the moment the cycle iseveryone wants to take it
in-house and save money, right?
So we want to do withoutrecruiters.
And I said, Don't worry.
I've been here before.
Yeah.
And they all come back.
And then of course the nextquestion is, when?
When are they going to hour?
I said, that I don't knowbecause I think there's also
economic factors in the world,right?
Geopolitical and geoeconomicfactors.
Kate Coomber (10:36):
But I think when clients are um talking about
rates or or, you know, all ofour customers really margins, or
what's the hourly rate?
What else?
What are the other questionsthat you know customers really
need to be asking to understand?
Sophie Robertson (10:51):
So I think one thing that recruiters really
need to learn is to ask theclient is the rate the most
important thing?
Like what things are youwilling to trade for that,
right?
Because are you willing totrade quality?
Are you willing to trade, okay,so I just heard this thing the
other day on the news, so youknow I'm Sydney based.
(11:11):
And in New South Wales, I heardthere's a task force now to
look into modern slavery inrelation to recruitment agencies
and particularly in relation toaged care, right?
So my ears kind of pricked upbecause it's recruitment
related, but also because Ialready knew I was coming here,
right?
And I thought, oh, I wonder ifyour clients know about that.
(11:31):
And if it's in New South Wales,it must be in every state.
In every other state.
So I guess the questions theclients need to think about is
when they say we want thecheapest, how far are they
willing to go?
Are they willing to go tomodern slavery?
Are they willing to go to lessum care for the patient?
I mean what it's always a risk.
Kate Coomber (11:55):
And in healthcare the stakes are so high.
They're too high.
You know, when you get itwrong, it goes astronomically
wrong.
Sophie Robertson (12:01):
Yeah.
I mean what I've always lovedabout CMR is I remember s
hearing Sam say years ago aboutwould you have this person look
after your mother?
Yeah, 100%.
Kate Coomber (12:11):
No, but I think that's great.
I remember you're up in Cairnsand and one of our nurses
actually were looking after arelative of yours up there and
you met someone in CMR.
Sam Miklos (12:21):
I I no, I wasn't actually up there, so you're
fine.
My aunt was very unwell and sheended up passing away.
And um my aunt said to my mumin walk to two of the CMR
nurses, and my next thought was,Oh God, please let them have
been great quality.
And they spoke so highly of ourstaff.
And they've recently hadanother one where they've
they've been treated by apodiatrist of ours up there.
(12:42):
And I said it to the team,like, you never know where our
candidates are going to turn upand which one of your family
members are they gonna betreating.
And if you think about thatevery time you register someone
and send them out, it's adifferent conversation.
Sophie Robertson (12:53):
Yeah.
I always remembered you saidyou said that.
I actually may have quoted youto several people, but would you
want the in healthcare?
Because I think it's relevant,right?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, one thing is, you know,what I used to do like in
business support or in retail orin all the other sectors I've
been in, but I think yours isit's critical, right?
Because they're dealing withpeople, like literally lives.
(13:13):
Right?
And save lives.
Sam Miklos (13:15):
You know, with the cyclical nature, you just said
that, you know, we're in thistime.
And we've seen that with like aLinkedIn came in and everyone
was bringing it in-house, youdon't need recruiters.
And what advice though, I guessfor clients?
Like what are the learningsthat you've seen coming out of
some of those cycles whereclients have looked back and
gone, oh gosh, I wish I'd knownwhat I knew then, and maybe I
wouldn't have made some of thedecisions I did at that point to
(13:36):
cut back on costs.
Sophie Robertson (13:39):
Sometimes it's well, I don't know, I mean,
sometimes it's from above thatthey have to do that, right?
But I think, yeah, for them,it's funny because when you
asked that question, I wasactually thinking about what we
need to do on the recruitmentside during that time.
Yes.
So maybe it's okay if I startedstuck with that then, yeah.
Because that's kind of where mymind went, right?
Is when consultants panic,because they do, they're kind of
(14:02):
going, There's no business,they don't want us, and I'm
like, no, no, no, just calmdown.
First of all, find out how manyroles are they working on,
right?
Because a lot of them have alot on.
Sam Miklos (14:11):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (14:11):
And I said to them, Look, could you take on 50
roles?
There's no way you can do thatif you're a good recruiter and
you're doing a good job, right?
So say to them, don't look atme as your competition.
Look at me as an addition toyour team.
And I think recruiters shouldalways think about that.
It's not uh me versus you, it'sand, right?
(14:32):
It's and like I used to say topeople, hey, I've got 18 years
experience.
With one phone call, you canget that, but when you don't
need me, don't call me.
Like you know what I mean?
So I think from a recruitmentpoint of view, recruiters have
to think about that, right?
Is there's always business.
Sam Miklos (14:50):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (14:51):
And the the easy stuff, like the low-hanging
stuff, uh internally, you knowwhat?
They probably should do that.
Yes.
We don't need to be able to dothat.
We're there to help when it'sreally hard.
When it's hard.
And I say to people, that'swhen you also get tested.
Tell your clients, give me yourhard stuff, right?
And I think from the clientpoint of view, then to come to
your question of what can theclients learn is they also need
(15:14):
to think about it's not usversus them.
Sam Miklos (15:16):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (15:17):
It's actually us together.
Like, look, I have resourceshere that when I need, I can
call you and I can get that umexperience and the network and
you know everything, right?
But when I don't, it doesn'thave to be it's either you or
me.
It's us together.
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (15:34):
That comes down to the relationship piece, doesn't
it?
If it's not there, then youcan't have those open
conversations.
And it's sticking with theclients even when they don't
need you.
That's the most importantthing, is to stick with them.
Yeah.
Is to stick with them.
Sam Miklos (15:46):
Big question I've got is though, let's talk about
tech, AI, automation.
Is the role of the recruiterabout to be made redundant?
Sophie Robertson (15:55):
I don't think so.
Sam Miklos (15:56):
I love that you went in so quick with it.
Sophie Robertson (16:00):
I mean, I have to say, in my now three
decades, right, often there'sbeen things that have come up.
There's been job boards,there's been LinkedIn, there's
been different things, andpeople have said, oh, is the
recruiter going to be redundant?
And I've never even given it asecond thought, honestly.
Yeah.
Maybe for 10 seconds, right?
But this time with AI, I reallyhad to stop and think about it
(16:21):
seriously, and I've beenthinking about it a lot.
And I do think that previouslythere's been a market for the
whole gamut of no touch or lowtouch recruiter to very high
touch.
And I think AI now will takeover the no touch or low touch
recruiter.
I think to some extent thereare some clients, maybe even
yours, um, that are forcingrecruiters to be no touch or low
(16:46):
touch.
You know, the ones that say, Idon't want to talk to you.
Yes.
I'm just gonna email you.
And then you just upload, youjust upload stuff to me, right?
And there's no conversation.
Like I think that's very hard.
Um but I say to recruiters,there are things you can do,
which you should do anyway.
Like I think you can do qualitychecks.
(17:07):
I think you should always do anexit interview when someone's
been there, if it's on a locumbasis or temp basis.
Find out what they really wlike.
Because some clients I don'tknow whether they can't or they
won't articulate what theyreally like in a person.
Like they'll just say, Send mea nurse.
Yeah.
And I'm like, okay, well thereare many different types of
(17:28):
nurses, right?
I mean, I did some traininglast week and it was great
because the consultant said tome, Oh, it's great, because the
con the client rang up and said,Send me a nurse.
And she went, No, I rememberwhat you said, I had to ask
questions.
And she said, 20 minutes later,she said, I got this really
good brief and it was a mentalhealth nurse and it was for
these people, and and I said,And how how do you think the
(17:48):
conversation was for the client?
And she said, I think theyreally enjoyed it.
Kate Coomber (17:51):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (17:52):
Because no one else had asked them.
So sometimes it's almost like,can we create those
opportunities to ask?
Yeah.
And maybe it's not at thebeginning if they're trying to
do the no-touch thing.
Sam Miklos (18:03):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (18:04):
But if you're gonna look after, I mean I guess
particularly from a temp andlocum point of view, is if
you're gonna look after yourworkforce, because they are your
workforce, you need to makesure both they are happy and
also the client's happy, right?
So you have to talk to them.
Sam Miklos (18:19):
Yeah, you do.
You do.
No, you do.
And that's a challenge we havetoo, right?
Go through workforce.
And they're like, you need totalk to them.
Kate Coomber (18:25):
This is where you need to know all of the touch
points throughout a hospital ora health service.
It can't just be the oneperson, you've got to have all
of it.
So if you're talking about, youknow, l low touch recruiting,
that transactional recruiter issort of on the way out.
Um what are the really keytraits that you feel a
successful recruiter needs tohave now?
Today.
Yeah.
Curiosity.
Sam Miklos (18:45):
From the talent acquisition.
Kate Coomber (18:46):
Curiosity.
Curiosity.
Sophie Robertson (18:48):
Yeah.
Uh I like to dis I like to sayto people, do you remember?
Oh, maybe you don't remember,we don't remember when we were
five.
But we've been with afive-year-old.
And you know how they ask you athousand questions.
And they just say why.
And I said, we are like that,but we learn to ask the
questions in a better way,right?
But that curiosity, becausethere's always another question.
(19:09):
And I think you need peoplethat can be curious, can uh
establish relationships, andalso know that if someone says
no, because people are gonna sayno, that it just means no not
yet.
That it's not, oh no, they hateme.
I'm not gonna call them.
Well, no today, no, in thiscase.
Kate Coomber (19:27):
And that you know, our customers are standing on a
on a health floor.
Yeah.
They're not sitting at a desk alot of the time.
Yeah.
You know, there's a lot ofchallenges to overcome there.
And it's about reading the roomof when's the right time.
Exactly.
Sophie Robertson (19:42):
I think curiosity, um what else?
I don't know, are yourecruiting for perm or local?
Sam Miklos (19:48):
Both.
Well, our recruiter, well,yeah, because you're right,
you're temp recruiter or yourperm recruiter, they're
different.
Sophie Robertson (19:53):
They're different.
I think if you're uh recruitingfor temp, I like problem
solvers.
And I say to people, don'tthink of your job as a job
placer.
That's not your job.
Yeah.
That's just kind of like butfind out what the problems are
that your clients have.
And you can't find that outunless you talk to them.
I mean, sometimes I've evenasked during my career, tell me
(20:15):
what what's the one thing ifsomeone could solve and maybe
it's not me.
And sometimes clients have saidthings where I was just like,
okay, I have no idea about that.
But then I've gone away andthought about it and come back
and said, Have you thought aboutthis?
Yes.
And maybe it's sometimes thingswe could provide, sometimes
it's not, it doesn't matter.
They know you're on their team,right?
That you're thinking about it.
I mean, I I do think temprecruiters have to be your
(20:39):
strong BD people, so they haveto really have the tenacity to
really build those relationshipsand stay in there for the long
haul, right?
That it's not just if I can'tget something today, I have to
keep you know, because I have toget to know you over time.
And I think that's been lost.
Like I often ask a consultant,tell me a fun fact about one of
(21:02):
your nurses.
And they go, What do you mean?
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (21:05):
It's because everything's on demand, right?
Sophie Robertson (21:07):
We don't know, but w they know everything
maybe about their skills.
And I'm like, what about themas a person?
Kate Coomber (21:14):
Yeah.
Not asking the questions.
Sophie Robertson (21:16):
And it's not until I say to them, or
sometimes, you're much more thanwhat you are here at work.
And they go, Oh yeah, ofcourse.
And I say, So are your tips?
Yes.
Do you know anything aboutthem?
And you could say equally thesame about the clients.
They are also much more thanthey are in workforce admin or
whatever.
Who are they?
Sam Miklos (21:38):
That curiosity is really important too.
If you think back, we were at aconference last week and I
think it was Greg Savage wastalking about, you know, just
the rubbish that's gonna comefrom AI and you know, candidates
that are just uploading CVsthat are matched, and like as a
recruiter, that's where thatcuriosity is so important to be
able to to cipher through andask more questions and and
(21:59):
really make sure that then wecan provide a a better level of
quality for our customers whenif that's what they're getting,
they're gonna get so much noisein the next couple of years that
they won't be able to trustwhat's right and what's wrong,
what's true and what's false.
Sophie Robertson (22:12):
Well, I don't know, did you two hear about I
mean in America it's allegedthere was some some story about
that there are there's so muchdeep fakes going on in AI that
when they apply for jobs youcan't be sure that they are who
they are.
Like even the face andeverything, the voice, there's
nothing, you know.
I mean we talk in um in my timeabout people lying on their
(22:34):
resume, but this is so much thisis a whole other bowling,
right?
And I mean your job and yourspecialty is reading people,
getting the story out of them.
Can a piece of tech do that?
I don't think it can do it yet.
I'm not gonna speak aboutwhether it can in the future,
but not yet.
And that is the value that weadd, right, as recruiters.
(22:57):
Because I don't know, and Imean a lot of your clients I
imagine, unless their job is torecruit, um, like you know, if
it's a numb or something, theirjob, they have other things to
do, right?
Sam Miklos (23:08):
Yeah.
Whereas your expertise.
Sophie Robertson (23:11):
No, but also it's also maybe not their
specialty, right?
Whereas it's your expertise andyour specialty.
It's like getting us toadminister medicine.
I mean, what do you know aboutthat?
Kate Coomber (23:20):
I'm not going near that.
This is where recruiters needto hold the confidence to have
these conversations and knowtheir value that the the volume
that they're doing here is morethan what the client would be
doing on that one-on-one level.
Yeah.
You know, the amount of peoplethat they speak to, if they're
truly being curious, the amountof things that they know and can
offer is quite a lot.
What about from a client?
(23:41):
So, you know, there have beenso many agencies in the last
five years.
It seems a huge influx ofagency in healthcare.
We have noticed it.
On every tender, there's more,you know, it's more competitive
than ever.
How do how does a customernavigate that?
You know, if we feel it, theymust feel it.
How do they sort out the goodfrom the bad?
Yeah.
What should they be looking forfrom both a candidate
(24:03):
perspective but also a clientperspective?
You know, what what should theylook for?
Sophie Robertson (24:07):
So I quite like companies that are, I guess
they can look to members ofprofessional associations, you
know, whether it's Amrance orRCSA or ABSCO or whatever,
because at least then there is acomeback if something should
happen.
I used to say that to peopleduring my career, right?
It's like being a CPA.
If you're not happy with me,you can complain.
You know what I mean?
So maybe it's that I thinkpeople that invest in compliance
(24:31):
that you know is good, um, thatdo it well.
But also, how many people areprepared to say your name out
loud?
Because I say to people, thatis the best, is when people will
say your name out loud to otherpeople, right?
So, yes, there's a lot of newentrants, and I hate to say this
to you too, because um youprobably but what I say to
(24:52):
healthcare people is I feel likeyou're in your sector's just
caught up, whereas in othersectors they've had all that.
You know, it's been saturated,and for you guys, yes it's true,
but it's only lately.
It's only actually lately,right?
So I know it's different foryou to navigate and different
for your clients to navigate,but it's always the same, is
(25:12):
there will people that will doit faster, cheaper, but is it
better?
And that's what they've got towork out is do I want price, do
I want quality, do I want is itpossible to get all of it in
one?
Probably not.
Right?
I think life is like that.
You choose the cheapest onegive you the best.
No.
Yeah.
So uh if you want the cheapest,then I think you as uh
(25:36):
providers, you get to decide isthat what we want to do?
Is that what we want to getknown for, right?
Because again, when I look atany market, you think, well,
there's uh a customer for atwo-dollar shop, and there's a
customer for you know whateverthe luxury is.
And there's probably room forall of us, you know, for all of
those.
And you get to decide, where doI sit in that?
Sam Miklos (25:59):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (25:59):
So you can become known for maybe we are
the super high touch, supervalue ads, you know.
People can come to us to ask usquestions, not just to provide
staff.
I feel like sometimes staff inmy career has been almost like
the side thing.
Yes, right?
Sam Miklos (26:14):
I would agree.
Yes.
And I feel like that changedfor us in COVID, like prior to
COVID, that's how it was.
It was sort of like the secondthing where there was all about
the relationship and thesupport.
But then it sort of flipped tothis, we need sta staff, staff,
staff, staff, staff.
So then everyone's lost thatthat muscle of it.
It's become transactional andnow it's got to flip back.
Music (26:34):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (26:34):
You are in so many agencies across the country
every week.
What are the great thingsyou're seeing that agencies are
doing?
You you can just give us acouple of secrets.
Well, it's some great stuff.
Sophie Robertson (26:48):
Actually, you know what I really like, and
there's a couple of companiesthat I've been doing it for
recently, is and it doesn't haveto be me, it's not because of
that, but it's because of thatthat I know about it, right?
Is they're really lookingcritically at what they're
doing.
Because I think like you said,in that COVID era, a lot of
agencies, particularly in yoursector, just right, went
(27:09):
gangbusters.
Because of that, it's kind oflike we they had processes, but
they added people and thenpeople make it up, and so really
I mean I've been hired to do afew audits, or audit sounds so
serious, but where I've actuallygone and looked at what they
did from beginning to end from acustomer experience point of
view from both the client andthe candidate.
And that's been superinteresting actually for me.
(27:32):
Because like I've looked atthings and then I've said to
them, Well, do you did you meanto do this?
And they're like, No, we had noidea we were doing that, right?
And it's not but you know whatI really admire is that they're
taking the time and I guessinvestment in doing it, and that
they want to do it well.
Sam Miklos (27:51):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (27:52):
Because at the end of the day, this is what I
believe, at the end of the day,the candidates and the clients,
right, their customer experienceis the most important thing.
But you get to decide what whatis the service we want to give
them.
Are we the five-star hotel orare we the motel on the, you
(28:14):
know, on the in the country ofthe road?
Yeah.
And there's room for all,right?
Because we need that motel justwhen we're there.
But when we provide thisservice, I think, you know, we
need to think about what do wewant to be known for?
And are we showing up at everystep?
Sam Miklos (28:30):
Yeah, every interaction is what we're
identifying.
And that's and that's reallytrue because the last few years
it has just been crazy, andwe've seen that.
Like we've had to stop, we'reliterally.
Kate Coomber (28:38):
So much too busy to die down, hasn't it?
Sam Miklos (28:41):
We've just this week stopped and started to go, that
doesn't make sense.
We're handing the batten herefor 50% and then back there for
the other 50%.
And then we're going over hereand saying, now you touch it,
and we've we've made this thesereally messy processes because
yeah, everyone's been so busy,it's just been tapping on the
next thing.
Just the doing, right?
Sophie Robertson (28:59):
Just the doing.
So uh yeah.
I think that's been yeah,that's been quite eye-opening, I
think.
And I think just to come backto your other question about
what should clients look for ingood agencies, I think there's a
lot, so it's connected, right?
People that do qualityassurance, you know, yeah,
whether it's ISO or whatwhatever it is, but they're
really looking at their processbecause then you can say to that
(29:22):
is why we are more expensive.
Yeah.
Because we take these thingsseriously, right?
And I think your company too, Imean, you also invest in your
people.
That's something that I wouldlook at if I was sitting on the
other side, because I'd be like,well, who are these people that
are recruiting people for me?
Yeah.
You know, are they the rightones?
Like I think this, yeah.
Sam Miklos (29:41):
What about a candidate then?
The flip, you know, if you ifyou're a candidate looking in,
what should they be looking for?
Because they're now got allthese agencies coming at them,
offering them the world.
Sophie Robertson (29:50):
I think the thing that candidates want first
and foremost has always been, Ithink that's still true, is
they want a job.
When they come to you, theywant the job, right?
Whether it's perma whether it'sa Whether it's TEP.
So can people actually providethem with jobs that are good for
them?
Are they listening to them?
Actually, so one thing thatreally surprised me, and I don't
know if you do this, but reallysurprised me with we don't, or
(30:13):
we do it with the first medicalagency I ever went to was
probably about twelve orthirteen years ago.
And I didn't realize this, andit's specific to medical, no one
else does this, is they justsend out all the jobs to all the
doctors, and then they choose.
And I'm like, okay.
And I said to them, why do youdo that?
And they said, Well, that's howwe've all just done it.
(30:34):
I said, No, no, but why do youdo it like that?
They're like, I don't know.
It's just the way we do it.
And I think, wow, that is soinefficient.
Because you're actually makingthe candidate do the work.
How does the candidate knowfrom looking at a hundred
different positions which one isright for them?
So to answer your questionabout what should a candidate
look for, I think they shouldlook for a consultant that
actually knows who they are andwhy they want to do the work
(30:57):
they want to do in the placesthey want to do and how long for
or whatever, right?
Sam Miklos (31:01):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:02):
Is again be more curious about them.
What is it that you want fromus?
And I say to people, look, ifyour candidates are with four or
five different agencies,they're still dating.
Sam Miklos (31:12):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:13):
They haven't found the one yet.
Why aren't you the one?
And the reason you're you'renot the one is because you don't
know what they want.
unknown (31:19):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:20):
You're not listening.
You're not listening.
Or maybe you're not curiousenough to find out.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
I mean, maybe you can't be theone, and that's also okay.
You just say, I can't do thatfor you.
But be honest.
I think that's what gives ourindustry a bad name is
Consultants say to me, I don'tlike to tell people we can't
help them.
I say, okay, so that means yousend them out the door and they
(31:42):
think they're going to hear fromyou and they never do.
Sam Miklos (31:44):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (31:44):
They go down the road, again, same thing
happens.
And then they just think, wedon't know what we're doing.
I'm like, I don't like that.
Be honest with people.
I can't help you because youhaven't got this certificate or
the right visa or whateverreason.
So that whole no-up date is anupdate.
Yeah.
So just because you can'thonest.
Don't sit on the fence.
A lot of people sitting on thefence.
And I think that's more nowthan before.
(32:05):
I think the generations nowthey don't like to offend
people.
And I I don't know why theyeven think of it as an offend
people.
Just being honest andtransparent.
Sam Miklos (32:16):
Yeah, that clarity is kind.
Sophie Robertson (32:18):
Yes.
Sam Miklos (32:19):
What are you hopeful or I guess excited about for
the future of recruitment?
You know, this this you've seenall these different cycles.
Like you said, the AI was onepiece that made you stop for a
minute.
What are you excited about forthe industry?
Sophie Robertson (32:34):
Oh, well, that's a good question.
What am I excited about?
I think I'm f interested in tosee how we're going to adapt.
Because if we don't adapt, Ithink we are actually in danger.
But I I don't know.
Honestly, I until they cancreate a robot that can do what
we can do, which is, you know,read all the nuances in a person
and in a client and all that.
(32:55):
I still think there's going tobe a room for recruiters.
But I do think that we have tonavigate it carefully now
because just because we canautomate something doesn't mean
we should.
Yes.
And it's funny because when Iupdated my book, um, you know, I
had different people write uhchapters in it, and one was a
tech person.
And we actually, Andrew and I,we had this conversation, right?
(33:18):
Because he's tech guru,totally, otherwise he wouldn't
have gotten near my book, right?
But I did say to him, like,certain things he was saying,
uh, you know, instead of uhspeaking to the temp on a weekly
basis, we can just text him.
And I'm like, Yeah, I'm like,okay, maybe once in a while, but
you still have to talk to him.
So we had this conversation,and he actually didn't it wasn't
that he disagreed with me atall, but you have to understand
(33:40):
his lens is tech, right?
Yes.
And my lens is totally home,but yeah.
So it was kind of like, ooh.
So where do we so it became,okay, so you could do this.
Music (33:49):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (33:49):
But in Sophie's chapter, it's very much
you you're doing it this way.
You have to get to know theperson.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I'm excited about I guesshow we evolve, but also, yeah, I
think we have to thinkcarefully about we don't need to
do things just because we can.
Sam Miklos (34:07):
That's so true.
Kate Coomber (34:08):
No, I think it's a really interesting point
because we all feel like we haveto do all of the things
sometimes because it's everchanging and we have to keep up
to date with so many things.
But yeah, sometimes it actuallyworked okay.
Sophie Robertson (34:22):
And you know, one of the um audits I did, it
was actually that.
Okay, so you've put in thesethings.
Yeah.
Is that really necessary?
Because it's just made itlonger.
Yeah.
Yes.
And I think from a candidateclient point of view, service to
me is consistency.
That's why I think it should bethe same every time.
But also you don't need to makeit more painful.
Sam Miklos (34:42):
Are we easy to do business with?
That's what we've been asking.
Yeah.
This is easy.
Yeah, but I want to deal withthis.
Sophie Robertson (34:47):
Not just easy, but is it actually pleasant?
Sam Miklos (34:50):
Yes.
Right.
Sophie Robertson (34:51):
Is it actually nice when I get a little update
from CMR or from whoever it is,you know?
In that way.
And is it the same voice?
Yeah.
Because that's something that,you know, was apparent to me too
from looking at a few differentcompanies, is they had
different voices inside the samecompany.
Yeah.
Like, are you consistent?
(35:11):
Yeah.
I'm very much into consistency.
It's it's a people think it'svery boring, and I'm like, but
if you think about whatexcellence is, I think it's
consistency.
Yeah.
And predictability.
Like when you go to a hotel,you're like, we go there because
we know about it.
It's going to be a certainthing.
And if it's suddenly different,we're like, what's happened?
Sam Miklos (35:28):
Yeah.
And leaning into those momentsthat matter.
Sophie Robertson (35:31):
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (35:31):
Those human moments as well, where you can really
enhance those relationships andbuild.
I think that's also reallyimportant.
It's just is looking to behuman and and I think we'd heard
that last week, don't you know,automate a congrats you've had
a baby or whatever.
It's like actually using allthose opportunities to just the
moments that matter that arereally special in life.
I think that's where we canalso add that value.
Sophie Robertson (35:52):
Yeah.
Have you um do you know thatbook, Moments of Truth?
No.
So it's quite old.
But it's um SAS, it'sScandinavian Airline Systems.
So you know I grew up inDenmark, so it's like our
Qantas, right?
And um so Scandinavian airlinesystems, they were in trouble in
1979.
They had gone through a periodof, you know, profit, profit,
(36:13):
profit, and then suddenly theoil prices shot up, and then
yeah, they were in deficit.
They got a new CEO and he was31 at the time.
I always say that.
Jan Carlson.
And people thought, okay, he'sgonna buy new planes, he's gonna
cut staff, you know, do all thenormal things, right?
And he did the speech to thestaff where he just went he
talked about moments of truth,and he said, So I looked at um
(36:36):
all the moments of truth wherewe touch our passengers, and
there's five of them, and eachof them might only be fifteen
seconds, but they are whatmatter.
Oh, I just got goosebumps.
I'm thinking that too.
And and he went, I can't savethis airline, but you can.
I just totally got goosebumps.
And next year they were alreadyin profit.
(36:57):
So what he did was he flattenedthe structure, but he basically
said to the frontline staff, ifyou see something and you can
fix it, fix it.
You have my authority to fixit.
So they did.
And there's all these stories,so that's what I've been I
recently spoke at a conferencewhere I was very much talking
about moments of truth, becausein that company they've given
(37:17):
everyone 12 hours back on theirdesk, like through automation.
Yeah.
And I'm like, well, why do youneed me?
And they're like, Well, we justthought that they would um talk
more to our customers.
Yeah.
Can you talk to them aboutthat?
I said what are they doing withthose 12 hours?
Yes, I can.
And so I talked to them aboutmoments of truth because that's
what it is is that every touchpoint they have with you
(37:38):
matters, no matter how small itis, right?
And you know, people thinkthere's neutral.
I don't think there's neutral.
Every interaction, it actuallyeither adds or it's minus.
Sam Miklos (37:48):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (37:48):
But there's no neutral.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
People think you can just kindof Yeah love that.
I don't think there is.
Kate Coomber (37:54):
I was going to ask you, um we talk a lot about
happier healthcare recruitment,and you know, you've worked with
various sectors acrossrecruitment, but in healthcare
specifically, what that means.
But I almost think that thatmoments of truth is the thing
that can really make adifference in healthcare.
If you think about the servicethat agencies like us provide,
(38:15):
but also the healthcarecommunity with each other,
that's what's needed.
Those moments of truth to JoanCarlson.
Sophie Robertson (38:23):
It's worth reading.
And it's a tiny little book.
Yeah.
I read it in one sittingbecause it was just, wow.
What's happening?
Yeah.
Sam Miklos (38:30):
Put that on the book behind on the bookshelf behind
you now.
Music (38:34):
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (38:35):
So see if I'll donate to a charity with every
episode.
Where can we send that money tofor you?
Sophie Robertson (38:41):
Oh, some okay, so I've thought about this.
Yeah.
And um but now I have to tellyou go back to the beginning.
Go back to the beginning.
So the reason why I stoppedbeing in recruitment and started
doing what I was doing wasbecause my husband uh died
suddenly of a heart attack, andour children at the time were
four and eight.
Oh my goodness.
(39:01):
And um yeah, so anyway, Ifigured I have to be around and
I thought, I'll do coaching.
So that's how this happened.
But a friend of mine who was as who's a psychologist
counsellor, she actually she's afriend of mine now, but she was
kind of a little bit adjacentat the time.
And she gave one of my bestfriends a list and said,
Sophie's not ready for it yet,but when she is and you'll know
(39:24):
when, give her this list.
And it was a list of placeswhere you could take your
children for bereavementcounselling.
Right.
And so I rang them all.
And the one that I rang, whichis um the National Centre for
Childhood Grief, so that's thecharity.
You know when you ringsomewhere and they answer all
your questions before you'veeven asked them?
(39:44):
And I knew that was the rightplace, right?
And they call themselves afriend's place.
So if ever your children areasked where are you going, they
can say, I'm going to a friend'splace.
Yeah.
And they don't have to explainto where they're going.
Sam Miklos (39:57):
Yeah.
Sophie Robertson (39:57):
Yeah.
So I took both um my sons therefor a while.
Wow.
Thank you.
And it's free.
Sam Miklos (40:03):
Really?
Sophie Robertson (40:04):
It's free, yeah.
For the children it's free.
Yeah, good.
Wow.
And it's a group in a group.
Yeah.
Because they say kids, the mostimportant thing for them is
that they um are like everyoneelse.
So when uh you have a parentdie, you're kind of like the
kids whose dads did.
But when you go there, you'rejust like everybody else.
(40:24):
And some of them have actuallylost both parents.
Sam Miklos (40:26):
So it's thank you for sharing that with us.
I didn't know that about you.
Sophie Robertson (40:31):
Yeah, no, sorry, I couldn't really tell
you about a friend's placewithout going there because
you're gonna ask why did youpick the member?
Yeah.
Why are you gonna pick them?
Sam Miklos (40:38):
Thank you.
No, we would um proudly,proudly donate to that charity.
What a wonderful charity.
And thank you for being herewith us today.
Like, there's so much,honestly, there's so much
insight that you have, and thefact that you've seen just all
of the cycles of recruitment andyou continue to, you know,
remain optimistic.
And just all of the generationsof recruiters that have um been
(41:01):
touched by your training, yourcoaching, your mentoring, like
you are just such aninspiration, and the industry is
just so much richer for havingyou in it, you know.
Thank you.
You give so much.
Kate Coomber (41:13):
I'm really excited for our team to have time with
you this week.
It's a pleasure to have you inhere.
Let's keep jumping here andbring them forward, bring them
forward.
The stuff that you know Icertainly learned from you so
many years ago is the stuff thatI still talk about.
Yeah.
So it will stay for them to beable to do that.
Definitely.
Sophie Robertson (41:32):
And I'm gonna talk about some of those things
again tomorrow, you know, themindset rather than.
Sam Miklos (41:39):
And you are living proof of all of that.
So thank you.
Sophie Robertson (41:42):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Kate Coomber (41:48):
We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the
land of which we meet, who forcenturies have shared ancient
methods of healing and cared fortheir communities.
We pay our respects to elderspast and present.
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