July 22, 2025 • 46 mins
What happens when rest doesn’t work? When even after sleep, time off, or a holiday, you still feel depleted? That’s the reality of burnout and it’s something Ruth Limkin has seen up close.
As Founder of The Banyans, Ruth shares how burnout often hides in plain sight - from professionals quietly struggling with addiction to healthcare workers pushing through chronic fatigue. She explains the difference between being worn out and being burnt out and why recovery takes more than just a good night’s sleep.
We explore the early signs many overlook, the six dimensions of wellbeing, and how The Banyans’ team of up to 14 specialists work together to support deep, whole-person healing. Ruth also shares simple, science-backed practices, like time in nature and quality sleep, that can shift your mental health for the better.
This episode is for you if you’re feeling constantly drained, supporting others through tough seasons, or ready to rethink what true wellbeing looks like.
The Banyans are generously offering listeners a free download of their Facets of Wellbeing Workbook - a practical tool to help you explore your personal wellbeing landscape and begin mapping a more resilient, sustainable path forward. Download for free here.
It Takes Heart is hosted by cmr CEO Sam Miklos, alongside Head of Talent and Employer Branding, Kate Coomber.
We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso
More about Ruth's Organisations of Choice, Sober in the Country.
Sober in the Country is a grassroots bush charity creating radical social change and saving the lives of rural and remote Australians affected by alcohol harm through their advocacy, straight talk, lived experience, partnerships, and their online peer-support group, the Bush Tribe. They don't preach prohibition... they teach communities the power of social inclusion.
Get to know cmr better!
Follow @ittakesheartpodcast on Instagram, @cmr | Cornerstone Medical Recruitment on Linked In, @cornerstonemedicalrec on TikTok and @CornerstoneMedicalRecruitment on Facebook.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Miklos (00:00):
Today's guest has seen what happens when driven
high-achieving people push pasttheir limits without ever
stopping to ask am I okay?
Ruth Limkin (00:08):
It's a lot easier to hide problematic drinking and
substance use if you're workingfrom home, because it can be a
teacup.
We've worked with a reallysuccessful female leader and she
would open her first bottle ofwine at 9 o'clock in the morning
because she was working fromhome, ran a few companies and
she could, and she could and noone knew.
Second bottle of wine at 9o'clock in the morning because
she was working from home, ran afew companies and she could,
and she could and no one knew.
Second bottle of wine atlunchtime.
(00:29):
So by the time she was pickingthe kids up, two bottles of wine
.
Kate Coomber (00:34):
If you're enjoying these conversations, don't
forget to hit the follow andsubscribe button.
Sam Miklos (00:38):
We care for the land .
We see we care.
So today we meet Ruth Limkin,founder and managing director of
the Banyans, a world-renownedfacility here in southeast
Queensland providing one-to-onewraparound care for those who
may have experienced things likeburnout, grief, addiction or
(00:59):
trauma.
Welcome, ruth, to.
It Takes Heart.
Ruth Limkin (01:01):
Thank you, it's really great to be here.
Sam Miklos (01:03):
That one-to-one wraparound care, just that in
itself is so beautifully put.
Ruth Limkin (01:08):
It's remarkable when you see the reality of it
and honestly, I think it's whatwe would do for everyone in the
health system if we could.
Sam Miklos (01:16):
I know we can't in the reality.
Ruth Limkin (01:18):
but there are people who that's really the
only way that they'll accesscare and they're willing to
invest in that, so they deservetreatment too.
Sam Miklos (01:28):
Yeah, 100%, burnout is everywhere.
Ruth Limkin (01:30):
Absolutely.
Sam Miklos (01:32):
It is showing up in our workplaces, in our living
rooms.
We're hearing about it all thetime.
It's a topic that's a reallycommon theme in our healthcare
community.
A lot of our candidates ourclients are talking about
burnout, so we were reallygrateful to be able to have this
conversation with you today.
Kate Coomber (01:50):
Now I've got a quote that I believe you've said
it's going to be awkward if Iread this and you go that wasn't
me, so I managed to find theresearch.
Sam Miklos (01:58):
Let's see.
You've said we have to make iteasier to talk about what's hard
.
We have to remind people thatstrength doesn't mean silence,
but that strength comes fromstruggle and the overcoming of
it.
That was you, that was meExplain that.
What does that mean?
Ruth Limkin (02:13):
So I think we've had historically, and maybe
particularly in healthcare,because we put a focus on our
patients and the people thatwe're looking after and we're
meant to be the people with allthe answers and we're providing
a place of often strength forpeople to come to when they're
vulnerable.
But the the idea that we justhave to suck it up, you know,
(02:35):
press on, I think is a bit of anarrative that's been around
historically.
That's actually reallyunhelpful and actually weakens
us as individuals but alsoweakens the healthcare system,
because if we have this endemicsort of deterioration of
wellbeing happening under thesurface and we don't actually
shine the light on it and givepeople the opportunity to get
(02:57):
help early and to continue towork in a way that they can
while they're getting help, thenwe're actually making the whole
system weaker, and so it's verymuch an individual issue.
But it's not just an individualissue.
It's a system issue, it's alsoa cultural issue, it's a
community issue.
You know, our society worksbest when human flourishing
(03:19):
takes place, and we try andprovide that as a healthcare
system.
But we need to be enabling itfor health care practitioners
and you mentioned there's sortof a shift, like it's.
Kate Coomber (03:31):
It's really it's something we weren't talking
about toughen up years ago,certainly when we were growing
up, and yeah, you know it's um,like it's great to see a focus
on it, yeah, but I guess can youtalk to us about what is
burnout?
And maybe what it isn't,because I think in the same
token, yeah, like literally, weprobably speak about it every
(03:51):
single day with someone yeah, weare having a conversation with.
Ruth Limkin (03:54):
Yes so it was really interesting because a
world health organizationactually classed burnout as a
condition about five years ago.
Uh, was that?
Maybe?
Sam Miklos (04:04):
a little bit, it was .
It Was that pre-COVID.
Ruth Limkin (04:06):
It was actually pre-COVID which means it was
longer than five years ago,because it's now been five years
since COVID and I was lookingat it and they specifically link
it to workload and workplaces.
However, as I was looking atthat, I was like I actually
think that's a false, notdiagnosis but a false definition
, because Because, yes, it showsup and there are contributors
(04:29):
in the workforce and theworkplace and workloads, but I
actually think all of life atthe moment, you know, cost of
living is a pressure that adds,and then the always on
connection and the you knowpeople expecting very quick
turnarounds of information isanother, and the you know people
expecting very quickturnarounds of information is
another.
(04:53):
You know, the Banyans has seen a684% increase in inquiries for
stress and burnout in the lastcouple of years, which is
phenomenal.
So one that concerns me, buttwo that comforts me that people
are actually reaching out andacknowledging it, and I think
COVID was a contributor towhat's going on in leadership,
wellbeing and healthcarewellbeing, but it's actually
also started to provoke aconversation about it.
So it's been both part of theproblem, but I think it creates
(05:16):
an environment where we can talkabout it a little bit more.
Sam Miklos (05:18):
So what does burnout ?
Ruth Limkin (05:19):
look like you know, because I feel like too.
Sam Miklos (05:22):
At times it's a term where we go.
I'll say I'm just burnt out.
Ruth Limkin (05:25):
Yes, yeah.
Sam Miklos (05:26):
But is there a spectrum of burnout?
Ruth Limkin (05:29):
So I think there's a difference between being worn
out and burnt out.
So you know, sometimes worn outis just it's been a really big
week or a really big month or aseason of weeks where there's
been a lot of travel or whateverhas been going on.
You've got deadlines, but youcan recharge from that.
If you're just intentionalabout it.
Burnout there's often a senseof reduced efficacy, so you're
(05:51):
not as effective in your jobanymore.
There's you, you can't recharge.
You try and do the things thatyou know normally to do
hopefully that you know normallyto do and it you can't work out
and it's just this, unable tobounce back.
So you know, sometimes peopleflame out.
But burnout is this steadyaccumulation of everything
(06:14):
that's going on and theinability to get up from over
that.
Kate Coomber (06:18):
So I guess one of the early warning signs perhaps,
and then leading into you knowwhen are people really catching
themselves?
Yeah what are the phases?
Ruth Limkin (06:28):
so one of the things I'm really passionate
about at the banyans is I oftensay I would love to put myself
out of business, because Ireally like talking about the
fact that if we, particularly asleaders and as health care
professionals, can be takingproactive, preventative steps,
so no one gets to that kind ofcrisis point.
So we do.
We have a range of moreproactive.
(06:49):
We call it a high performancereset.
It's a one day where someonecan come in and have a mindset
recharge.
You know, talk to an exercisephysiologist, talk to the
clinical nutritionist, do somemindfulness in the same way that
we get our car serviced.
It's kind of like going in for abit of a checkup but for our
whole well-being.
And so I think you know ifsomeone's listening to this and
(07:12):
they're thinking am I just wornout or am I getting burnt out?
So some of the things sleep isactually a really good indicator
If you're waking up everymorning and you're still
exhausted, if you can't get tosleep, or if you wake that
dreaded 2 am wake up and thenyou can't get back if that's
happening, not just occasionally, because sometimes that just
(07:34):
happens, but this is happeningtime after time, that's actually
a really important signal thatwe need to be looking at.
A loss of joy, um, you know,just that sense of nothing.
There's no joy in your soul.
Um, this sense of you know.
Sometimes also your immunesystem is very affected, so
(07:55):
you're just always getting sickor you can't get over things and
do you think?
Kate Coomber (07:58):
unless you're really in tune with yourself,
those things are actually hardto spot, because you're busy and
I haven't noticed that I don'thave joy and you think about the
healthcare professionals whoare doing shift work and crazy
hours Soldering on and keepgoing, keep going.
I imagine they're quiteactually difficult to notice.
Ruth Limkin (08:15):
Which is why these conversations are so important.
So it's so great that you'redoing it because the more that
we talk about it, we can't moveto action if there's no
awareness.
We also don't want to get stuckin awareness but, they both
work together.
We need awareness and talkingabout it, and maybe someone's
listening to this on their wayto work or something like that,
(08:35):
and they're like, oh, actually,you're describing my world at
the moment, can you just?
Sam Miklos (08:42):
sorry to jump in.
But I was just going to say canyou recover from burnout?
Ruth Limkin (08:45):
Absolutely.
Sam Miklos (08:46):
And how long does it take?
Ruth Limkin (08:48):
So, again, this is why talking about it and early
intervention is really important, because the sooner that you
recognise something's going on,often the quicker that you can
recover and less is the impactof treatment that's needed.
And it could be something thatyou start doing while you're
still going about your life orit could be at the point where
(09:08):
you need to take some time out.
I remember talking to someoneyears ago at the Banyans.
I was answering the phone andhe ran a company and he said, oh
, the wheels haven't fallen off,but they're really wobbly.
And I said now's the time to dosomething.
So we redesigned a program thatwe have called the Rest and
Refresh and you know, if we canstart to recognise when the
(09:30):
wheels are a bit wobbly beforethey fall off, then actually
it's a really smart investmentin our health.
Sam Miklos (09:37):
You know with blood tests show like your cortisol
levels are high or adrenalfatigue.
Are they also early signs?
Or if you're in adrenaloverload, is it too late?
Ruth Limkin (09:48):
Well, it's never too late, yeah, sorry, no,
that's right Like are youalready there?
Sam Miklos (09:53):
Yeah, if you're getting that adrenal fatigue, I
think you are at the point whereyou absolutely need to do
something, yeah.
Ruth Limkin (10:00):
But again there's.
I don't ever want people tofeel hopeless or helpless, and
so there are really.
You know, we do have a greathealthcare system in Australia,
even though people who areworking in it are finding it
difficult.
There are always options, andat different levels.
Kate Coomber (10:20):
Let's talk about those options then, because you
said that if someone's listeningand they're thinking yes, and,
like you said, it's never toolate and early intervention and
people often have tried andthey're actually struggling to
get into resources or they can'tafford resources or you know
you've got some psychiatristsyou know working off because
they're not comfortable.
They can provide safe care.
(10:41):
Yeah, where do people go?
Ruth Limkin (10:44):
So I think the first thing is go to someone you
know and trust.
Um, so you know, interestingly,one of the best predictors for
well-being according to theworld's longest well-being study
, the Harvard adult developmentstudy is supportive social
relationships.
So, at a very minimum, movingout of a sense of isolation into
a sense of connection is themost important first step, and
(11:08):
even just not feeling likeyou've got to solve this
yourself is really important.
So you know, going to someoneeither that you work with or in
your family or a friend orsomething like that, and saying,
hey, look, I'm actually notdoing great and I just need to
find a way forward for that, andcan you help me?
And I just need to find a wayforward for that, and can you
help me?
And if you're the person whogets that question, you say,
(11:29):
yeah, I don't know what yet, butlet's do it together.
So it's okay, you don't have tobe the fount of all wisdom.
I think going in if you've got agood, trusted GP going and
talking to your GP is the firststep, obviously, we all know
there's referrals for mentalhealth care plans and those
kinds of things and you know,yes, there can be a bit of a
(11:49):
waiting list for psychology, butthere's also amazing telehealth
psychology services around.
So I met an incredible leader.
She came to one of ourleadership wellbeing dinners in
Sydney, philippa Brown, who runsMeHelp.
It's Medicare funded telehealth, psychologyhealth, psychology.
So you know, people can jump onthat website and book something
in and sometimes all you haveto do is have one, two, three
(12:12):
sessions and just start.
You know that in and of itselfis giving you agency.
You're starting to do something, you're getting some great
tools.
I was talking to someone theother day and for the first time
they went and saw apsychologist about something
that had been bugging them foryears and even after one session
they're like I've got somereally good tools now and, yes,
they're going back to see someothers.
Kate Coomber (12:34):
But never underestimate the power of one
great session yeah, I thinkthat's really good to know,
because I think people mightfeel it's too big of problem and
a couple of days off isn'tgoing to change or help me feel
better.
So I think it's really positiveto hear that you can have that
really great feeling absolutelyoff just one session, and I
(12:56):
think you talked aboutconnection there as well.
Sam Miklos (12:58):
We were talking about that yesterday.
Kate Coomber (13:00):
Um, you know the interlink with covid and people
being disconnected you, you justmentioned the huge spike.
Yeah, and I'm sure that hassome contributing factors there.
What are you seeing in theworld we live in now?
That's different aroundconnection.
Ruth Limkin (13:13):
So we are more fragmented and it's really
interesting.
You know work from home.
I was just thinking that I waslike do I ask you about work
from?
Home, let's go there.
Yeah, let's go there.
Yeah, let's go there.
Sam Miklos (13:26):
Let's be brave yeah.
Ruth Limkin (13:27):
So we know that social connection is really
important for mental health andwellbeing.
A lot of people, a lot of themost important relationships in
their world or the best sense ofsocial connection actually is
in the workplace, and it's notthe same quality if you're
dialling in to a screen inback-to-back meetings.
It's just not the case.
So I'm not saying everyone hasto return to the office five
(13:49):
days a week, but I think workingisolated by yourself from a
screen five days a week isreally detrimental to your
health and well-being, and oftenlonger than you would in the
office.
Kate Coomber (14:00):
Absolutely, I think people think people are
not working at home and that'sthe issue, but.
Ruth Limkin (14:08):
I read something yesterday to say it's actually
the reverse, yes, and people areworking too much at home and
not having the breaks.
Yeah, you know the interaction,the social, the water cooler
chat yeah, and you know, one ofthe other things that we see at
the banyans is um, and again,let's go there um.
So it's a lot easier to hideproblematic drinking and
substance use if you're workingfrom home, because it can be a
teacup.
(14:28):
You know, we've worked with areally successful female leader
and she would open her firstbottle of wine at 9 o'clock in
the morning because she wasworking from home ran a few
companies and she could.
And she could and no one knew.
Second bottle of wine atlunchtime.
So by the time she's pickingthe kids up two bottles of wine.
So I think you know, socialconnection has a lot of
(14:49):
protective factors and we needto think about that when we
think about what does work andlife look like?
Kate Coomber (14:55):
Yeah, I think sometimes we show up more for
others than we do for ourselves,and I guess it comes down to
that If you're at home, you'reonly having to show up for
yourself.
Sam Miklos (15:04):
Yeah, it's probably not the best version sometimes.
While we're on the workplace,then I know, said that you know,
the world health organizationwas attributing it to the
workplace.
Yeah, what, um, what do we needto be doing?
You know, as an employer, whatand you know with the, with the,
the days that we're in now isthe little micro changes that we
(15:26):
can do?
Or, and also, how do we bettersupport people who are feeling
burnt out?
Kate Coomber (15:30):
or worn out, as you said.
Said or recognize it, evenrecognize it.
Sam Miklos (15:33):
Yeah, you know we've got eap programs, but it's like
but then you said that going,you can have three sessions,
like okay, well, there's eap,there's, there's little steps
there so I think it's making itpart of the conversation all of
the time and I think as leadersalso, we have to model that.
Ruth Limkin (15:48):
So I'm really deliberate.
There's a particular gym classthat I love going to that starts
at 4.30 and it's just acrossthe road from where I work, and
I normally work till after 4.30,but most weeks during the week
I'll go and get changed into mygym gear and go and say goodbye
to everyone in the officebecause I know I'm going to that
(16:09):
class to send a really clearsignal that actually doing
things for our well-being isreally important and I'm going
to do it as the leader, and sothat gives you permission to
just be having theseconversations and talking about
what's needed.
I think also, I'm always reallyclear about the fact I see a
(16:29):
psychologist once every sixmonths at different seasons.
I've done that more, but I'd putthat in the diary as a check-in
in the same way that I get mycar tuned up, like one time I
was driving there and I was likeI've got nothing to say.
Sam Miklos (16:43):
I don't know how I'm going to fill this session.
Yeah, yeah, I'm good.
I'm really good at the minute.
Ruth Limkin (16:47):
yeah, then you sit down.
She asked, asks one question.
It's like okay, 45 minuteslater, but it's someone outside
of your world that you canbounce things across and process
things with.
I think so little things likestanding desks and maybe you
can't afford to swap all thedesks in your office, but just
think, like I often say topeople and I actually really
(17:09):
encourage people to take controlof their own wellbeing, so
don't outsource it to youremployer or your workplace.
There's fundamental, simple,cheap or free things we can do
to look after our own wellbeing.
I know this might sound strangefor someone who's on the ward
and on their feet all the time,but for people at a desk, even
just standing up whenever you'remaking a phone call.
Sam Miklos (17:30):
Do you know?
Ruth Limkin (17:31):
standing, instead of sitting, for three to four
hours a day, is the equivalentactivity output of running 10
marathons a year.
Sam Miklos (17:40):
I have heard that.
Ruth Limkin (17:41):
I couldn't remember how many.
Kate Coomber (17:43):
Yes, that was you then, and I remember, because we
do have stand-up desks.
Sam Miklos (17:46):
And you know what drives me wild is everyone goes
and sits with them and everyonewanted them and I'm like let's
stand up, but then I'm probablynot modelling it.
Ruth Limkin (17:54):
I'm going to test out my husband.
Kate Coomber (17:55):
He used to love them.
He was always there and youused to do yoga in the office at
lunch.
Sam Miklos (18:01):
And you know, I think it's a consistency piece,
isn't it?
If you're?
Kate Coomber (18:03):
doing that class at 4.30 every day.
It sometimes is easy to deviate.
Sam Miklos (18:08):
Yeah, you definitely get distracted, don't we?
So?
It's really it's keeping thoseconsistent, positive actions,
yeah, yeah, Do you know if youknow if someone's at work and
you know if they're looking likethey're recognising the signs
and they're not finding joy intheir work?
Can that get confused with?
You know I'm burnt out, butactually it might be as simple
(18:31):
as a shift to a new environment.
Ruth Limkin (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, or a new role, or maybe the job that
they're in they've outgrown.
Sam Miklos (18:39):
Yeah, which is okay, absolutely.
Ruth Limkin (18:42):
Occupational wellbeing is one of the six
dimensions of wellbeing.
Sam Miklos (18:45):
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (18:46):
And that doesn't mean you have to stay in the
same job for the rest of yourlife in order for, although you
can.
Kate Coomber (18:53):
To be fair, I've had a thousand jobs in the one
business We've been together for13 years.
Sam Miklos (18:59):
I'm like you know.
Give me five, I'll send you toRuth if you like, end of it.
Kate Coomber (19:03):
So yes, you mentioned there the dimensions
of wellness.
Can you talk to us about that?
Ruth Limkin (19:07):
Yeah, so one of the things when I first started the
Banyans, I found a version ofdimensions of wellbeing that the
National Wellness Institute putout, but we changed it because
we recognised actually ourwellbeing is much more
integrated.
So it's not like there's sixdiscrete areas of wellbeing, but
there's six facets of wellbeingand they all influence each
other, which is actually reallygood news because it means you
(19:30):
don't have to do six differentthings to improve your
well-being.
I remember doing this with you.
Sam Miklos (19:34):
now, that's right.
I'm like I've done this withyou and it was so powerful.
Ruth Limkin (19:42):
So we actually did this with the Broncos.
This week.
We're doing some well-beingworkshops with their staff, but
then also with some of theircorporate partners, because and
shout out to the Broncos they'redoing Australia's first mental
health jersey this week, becausethey really want to spark
conversations about mentalhealth and wellbeing.
Kate Coomber (20:01):
Yes, you talked, then, about the dimensions of
wellbeing.
What are they?
Ruth Limkin (20:06):
Okay, well, look, there's six of them and I'll run
you through them quickly andthen I'll talk to you about how
we did some work on the model.
So there's physical wellbeing,social wellbeing, emotional
wellbeing, occupationalwellbeing, intellectual
wellbeing and spiritualwellbeing.
Sam Miklos (20:22):
The good news is for anyone who's feeling a little
bit overwhelmed about they'vegot to do six different things,
just like a water heater,because I've done this with you
and I remember seeing it all andgoing this is a lot.
Kate Coomber (20:32):
How do I?
Fix six parts of me that need abit of work, exactly.
Ruth Limkin (20:37):
Do they all need work?
Yeah, so the good news?
So we didn't make thosedimensions up.
I found a model of wellbeingfrom the National Wellness
Institute, but they had eachdimension as very discreet.
I said that's actually not howreal life works, that's not how
our body works, and so we'veredeveloped the model to show
that they're all integrated,which is really good news,
(21:00):
because what we know is that ifyou make one positive change in
one of those dimensions, itactually often produces positive
outcomes in the otherdimensions as well.
So you can just do one thingand that can create positive
difference in various dimensions.
And so I always say to peoplelike, particularly for people
who are highly responsible,a-type personalities driven,
(21:22):
you're not allowed to do morethan one thing.
Sam Miklos (21:25):
Yeah, I remember sitting there and being like
you've said do three.
Kate Coomber (21:29):
I was like I'm in the calendar.
Sam Miklos (21:31):
I'll do seven.
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Limkin (21:33):
So just doing one thing that's free and that's
sustainable.
And I often also say to peopledon't try and start something,
because if you already feel likeyour life is overfull or you're
overwhelmed, that's not goingto get a lot of traction.
So I say just stop or swap.
Yeah, stop doing something orswap something out.
Sam Miklos (21:55):
And I was just going to say from memory, when I did
this with you, the actualactions, yeah, were quite easy
things.
Kate Coomber (22:02):
Yes, that's where I was going to go.
What are some examples of them?
Sam Miklos (22:06):
So I remember they were a bit like oh, that's
pretty obvious and I could dothat.
Ruth Limkin (22:11):
So like one really simple thing which is free.
So there's a lot of researchthat shows if we walk in nature
as opposed to walking in urbanenvironments, our cortisol
levels, that stress hormone,goes down by over 12%.
So you can reduce your stresslevels by walking in nature,
which is free to do.
So you're improving your socialwell-being because nature is
(22:35):
part of social well-being yourphysical and your emotional
well-being by going for a walkin nature, and if you do that
with a friend, like if you say,hey, once a month, why don't we
go for a bushwalk at MountCoot-tha?
Sam Miklos (22:47):
or something like that.
Ruth Limkin (22:49):
That's one thing you can do which feels fairly
sustainable and you're improvinglots of different dimensions of
your well-being.
Another really important thingwhich might feel a little bit
harder for anyone who'slistening, particularly if
they're a shift worker is payingattention to our sleep.
So there's a really interestingphenomenon that has been coined
(23:12):
revenge.
Kate Coomber (23:13):
Bedtime procrastination have you heard
of this one.
Ruth Limkin (23:16):
I haven't Revenge bedtime procrastination, so it's
something that's happening morewith women than men, but not
just women and it's people whofeel like they don't really have
control of their day and lifeis really busy and really full
and everyone else gets theirtime.
Then, at the end of the day,when they're really tired,
instead of going to bed, theytake what they feel like is
(23:39):
control of some time and theyeither binge stuff on Netflix or
scroll on their phone this.
Sam Miklos (23:45):
I like scrolling.
I mean I speak to like friendswhere they'll be like yeah, I
just went down a rabbit hole foran hour.
Kate Coomber (23:50):
Yeah, I'm not just scrolling, but I definitely
identify with that.
Sam Miklos (23:55):
I feel like everyone has taken everything from me
today, having two young children, and I've been there for
everyone.
Kate Coomber (24:01):
Yeah, and as tired as I am, I'm not ready to go to
sleep because I'm not ready tostart again.
Ruth Limkin (24:06):
Yes, yeah, that's profound.
Sam Miklos (24:10):
You've got this.
This is your experience.
Kate Coomber (24:13):
Yeah, so I'll set myself usually a timer You'd be
like.
I realise I don't have a lot oftime but I just need something.
Yeah, often it just wants to besomething.
I don't need to use my brain.
Ruth Limkin (24:27):
So that can actually be a really great thing
if it's not something likescrolling on your phone.
One of the problems withscrolling with your phone is,
whenever you're discoveringsomething new, your brain
releases little hits of dopamine, which promotes wakefulness,
not sleepfulness, and you've gotthe blue light I guess yeah, so
there's lots of better thingthat could be done so it depends
like something that you enjoyso if, for example, you love
(24:48):
great, maybe you love mysterynovels or something like that, a
paper book particularly youpick that up and you're going to
like 15 minutes, 20 minutes anight I'm going to read my
favourite mystery novel, or Idon't know, maybe people like
I'm not a knitter but maybeknitting or a jigsaw puzzle or
whatever.
Maybe it's a gratitude journalyou know that's a really
(25:10):
powerful way.
Or maybe it's journaling yourday in there, yeah.
Sam Miklos (25:13):
Why is gratitude and journaling so powerful?
Ruth Limkin (25:15):
Yeah, it's amazing.
So the scientific research thatshows.
So there was one study donewhere every night someone wrote
I'm grateful for and they justthree things and they didn't
just do a dot point of my dog,my husband, my job and the next
day my dog, my husband, my job,it was like today I'm grateful
for.
Today I'm grateful for and bydoing that for six weeks their
(25:39):
level of depression reduced.
So gratitude reframes our wholeworld for us.
Sam Miklos (25:46):
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (25:47):
And it helps us start to look for the things
that are good, which makes ahuge difference to our emotional
wellbeing and probably alsowhen we think about the people
in our life we're grateful forit encourages us to reach out to
them, which is that socialconnection, yeah.
Kate Coomber (26:01):
Do you see that really effective in the
workplace, where you knowactually, because at work you
typically are solving problems,you're dealing with challenges
you're overcoming hurdles.
That's why a lot of us do it inour day.
Ruth Limkin (26:13):
Leadership is problem solving.
Kate Coomber (26:16):
Is there a really great link for that gratitude at
work sometimes where maybe weneed to do that more in terms of
, you know, I think celebratingwins is really important.
Ruth Limkin (26:25):
They don't have to be big wins, but celebrating
wins is really important.
You know great customerfeedback or patient feedback, or
you know particularly if peopleare working in difficult.
So we work in mental health andaddiction.
Sometimes we're carrying a lotof people's pain.
So you know, one of our valuesat the Banyans is joy.
So we want people to rediscovertheir joy.
(26:47):
But we also want an environmentwhere we know how to steward
and cultivate joy really well inour own life.
So laughing together you knoweating together.
Yeah, it's actually reallyimportant creating a life-giving
environment.
Kate Coomber (27:03):
That's interesting .
So I think that compassionfatigue is something that's come
up with so many of theseconversations within the
healthcare industry, but alsowithin our.
Team here supporting healthcareprofessionals, but obviously
the healthcare professionalscaring for others.
Team here supporting healthcareprofessionals, but obviously
the healthcare professionalscaring for others.
Yes, that's a big challenge,it's huge.
Sam Miklos (27:19):
What about gratitude , then?
What about the role of, likemeditation or breath work, like
that seems to be an emergingtrend too.
Ruth Limkin (27:25):
Yeah, mindfulness breath work, yeah, absolutely, I
did a course.
Sam Miklos (27:28):
recently I realised I couldn't breathe.
My stomach was like.
I was like what's happening,like why is it?
Not, You're calling me like I'mlearning to breathe.
I'm learning to breathe and I'mlike this is the opposite.
My tummy's going in theopposite direction, but it feels
normal, Like is there a placefor that, and I think, if you
think about the healthcare work,it's like it's a small little
step.
Ruth Limkin (27:51):
Yeah, absolutely minute micro break doing some
really good mindfulness, reallygood breath work again.
It's this free way to hackwhat's happening in your body or
your mind, and there's so muchresearch that shows, you know,
the benefit to our emotional andphysical well-being.
There's so many free thingsthat we can do that don't have
to take a lot of time, thatdon't cost anything, and we can
often embed them into our lifealready, so we're not making it
(28:16):
a burden on people, yeah, whichis why I think I really
encourage people to take controlof their own well-being rather
than outsource it because Ithink, um, coming out of COVID
too, like as an employer, therewas so much like employers need
to do this, this, this, we needto offer all the things.
Sam Miklos (28:34):
So it kind of has felt a little bit outsourced.
And I think all the programsand different things we put in
over the years.
We just do yoga in here and wedo meditation, but if people
aren't going to turn up, andalso like you can have yoga or
meditation or something in theoffice.
Ruth Limkin (28:54):
But if you're awake till 1am because you're
scrolling on your phone for twohours, you're actually
self-sabotaging.
So you know, I think it is apartnership.
As employers, we have a dutynot to create an environment
that's going to cause damage,but we can't fix things that are
happening outside of theworkplace necessarily.
Kate Coomber (29:14):
I think when you touched on earlier, when you
were talking about how it'sdescribed, I think you said the
definition is technicallyoccupational.
Ruth Limkin (29:21):
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (29:22):
Work stress or what burnout is.
Yeah, we were talking becausefor a lot of people, work is the
part that actually brings themjoy.
And it's the noise around them,the juggling of the family the
extracurriculars.
Sam Miklos (29:35):
That now happen with children.
Kate Coomber (29:36):
It seems to be through the roof.
It's the pressures outside ofwork, economic pressures.
Yeah the cost of living and allof those other things actually
I feel.
Sam Miklos (29:46):
Sometimes it can feel like it's work Could be
more of a contributor sometimes,you know.
Kate Coomber (29:54):
So it's kind of looking at both of those lenses
of how to support people herebut yeah, how to give them the
tools to support, yeah, externalto that.
Ruth Limkin (29:57):
Ultimately, I believe that me as an individual
, I am responsible for mywell-being and you know I, if,
if I was in an environment that,for whatever reason like
sometimes the workplace itselfcan be great, but you're in a
role that absolutely clasheswith what your strength set is,
it's going to affect you.
(30:17):
You know, I'm a discfacilitator and so I remember
when I did the training theysaid if someone's in a role
that's actually contradictory totheir strengths, in 18 months
it will show up in their health.
So that's not even anythingabout the workplace, but it's
about a role fit issue.
And so we have to takeresponsibility for our own
wellbeing and make decisionsaround that.
Kate Coomber (30:39):
Yeah, because it's a strength versus capability.
Right, it's not to say theycan't do that job, but it's
actually draining their energyBecause that's not their
strength, exactly.
Sam Miklos (30:50):
What about the impact of things like chat GPT?
I think I saw an article.
I think it was in the Timeswhere so many young people are
just chat GPT.
Here's my symptoms, or they'dprefer the anonymity as well.
How do I deal with this?
What is that?
Where's the place for AI and isit influencing therapy?
Ruth Limkin (31:17):
Yeah, I saw something recently which showed
the top use case for chat GBT inthe last 12 months was therapy.
Sam Miklos (31:24):
Yes.
Which terrifies me it is.
Ruth Limkin (31:27):
Right, so I think chat GBT.
So, first of all, big fan ofusing AI to streamline things to
make it more efficient.
There's a place to find that Iam currently using chat GPT to
do my low-carb meal planning andI said I'm happy to do some
meal planning.
Kate Coomber (31:43):
You said that yeah , I was like you've actually
changed my life.
How have I not thought aboutthis?
Because.
Sam Miklos (31:48):
I'm on chat GPT every day.
She came bursting into me.
I was like I'm doing lunchboxprep and it's been fantastic.
Kate Coomber (31:54):
It means when.
Ruth Limkin (31:54):
I get home from work 10 minutes of assembling
the meal because I've done somemeal prep on the weekend.
So I think it can actually be areal tool for us and I think AI
and Chachi Bt and other thingscan be an adjunct to our life,
but they shouldn't be the thingthat we rely on.
And you know, particularly fortherapy, I wouldn't trust it and
(32:18):
it's not going to be aseffective, because we do know
that social connection mattersand you can't have social
connection Like I think.
I'm really hopeful for AI inthe future.
You know, I know a lot of ourclinicians can now use AI for
note-taking, so not necessarilyrecording the session, but
afterwards they can.
You know you can use voicetranscription.
Kate Coomber (32:41):
Which would save loads of time compared to being
in OT and writing all your notesout, and also the room for
error right to actually get thedetail correct.
Ruth Limkin (32:50):
Yeah, exactly, so it can really.
I once heard someone say in thelast 12 months it's likely that
your job won't be replaced byAI, but you'll be replaced by
someone who knows how to use AI.
Sam Miklos (33:03):
Yeah, that is so true.
Ruth Limkin (33:06):
So I'm very pro, but it's never going to replace
people and the power of humanconnection.
Sam Miklos (33:12):
Also, too, if you're , you know something as good as
what you feed into it, right,yeah?
So if you're not giving all ofthe information or if it's your,
I know you said we need to likegive it a name our own little
chat GPT person but if it's that, it's the bias as well, yes,
exactly, yeah, it's a tool.
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (33:35):
And like any tool, it can create destruction or it
can build something, so it's ourresponsibility to use it really
well.
Sam Miklos (33:40):
Tell us about the Banyans.
Ruth Limkin (33:42):
The Banyans is amazing.
We've just celebrated our ninthbirthday recently.
Happy birthday, thank you,thank you, I'm already thinking
about what we should do for our10 years.
We talk about we help peoplefind fullness of life, and we
really do so.
We started with residentialservices.
(34:02):
So particularly for people whoare professionals, leaders,
people who think I've kind ofgot to the end of my rope, I hit
a bit of a crisis, could be ahealth crisis.
it could be like a family memberhas looked at them and said
you're not doing okay and youneed some help, and so, whether
it's mental health, whether it'saddiction, whether it's burnout
(34:25):
, sort of that chronic stress,whether it's eating disorders,
it's this wrapar care and it'sall one-on-one therapy.
So there's no group therapy,and group therapy is a great
modality, but for people whowon't engage in group, it's no
use Exactly or the confidenceeven to speak in a group, for
(34:45):
some people would be quite andyou know, if there's PTSD, you
can be re-traumatisedby other people in the group.
So you know, particularly formedical professionals, they like
the fact that they can come andactually just talk to someone
privately rather than in a group.
So they feel much moreconfident and you actually get a
lot more done if it's just youand your therapist, rather than
(35:06):
you and 14 people in a group.
So people come sometimes for, asI think I mentioned earlier,
that kind of proactive, like I'mgoing to do, a one week rest
and refresh, or it could be sortof four weeks or so for
something that needs a bit moreintensive support.
We track our clinical outcomesbecause we are in a beautiful
environment so we want you knowparticularly referring
(35:32):
healthcare practitioners to knowthat we're getting absolutely
incredible clinical outcomes.
So our clinical director sentme some information the other
day and he had to explain it inlayperson terms for me.
He's like I don't know ifyou've seen this, it's
extraordinary and that's theeffect size for the banyans,
which is far above what youwould see.
The results for antidepressantsor anything like that.
(35:52):
You know, we know that theDAS21 scores depression, anxiety
and stress.
You know 96.3% of our clientsreport and improve in their
mental health and it's generallyaround for each of those
measures on the DAS 21, over 60%and for the Leeds Dependency
Questionnaire where there'saddiction, over 70%.
(36:14):
So I love what we do.
I often say to our team what wedo is really hard.
We're supporting people in painand they're you know know, the
most courageous thing sometimesthat you can say is I need some
help and I can't do it myself.
So it's really hard for peopleand so we just provide this
beautiful wraparound care.
It's very clinically intense.
(36:35):
People see about 14 cliniciansevery week in the comprehensive
program talk us through that sowhat types of clinicians are
they seeing?
Everything, that's a lot.
Sam Miklos (36:44):
I was going to say what is wraparound care in this
context.
Ruth Limkin (36:49):
So in our comprehensive program they'll
see a psychiatrist, they'll seetheir psychologist four times a
week, they'll see the clinicalnutritionist, they'll see
registered nurses, they will seeexercise physiologists,
registered art therapists,neurologic music therapists.
There's yoga therapists.
Some of my staff are going tobe devastated because I haven't
(37:13):
mentioned them.
Sam Miklos (37:14):
Oh no, we'll shout out to them.
Ruth Limkin (37:16):
That's right.
It's just.
It's incredible just seeingwhat people do and the way that.
So one of the other things thatI think is really magical,
which I wish we could do inevery health care system, is
every morning, the entiretreating team get together for
up to 45 minutes and they talkthrough our different guests and
(37:36):
this is what's happening forthis person, so maybe equine
therapy, for instance.
You know this was what washappening in this person so
maybe or equine therapy, forinstance.
You know this was what washappening in this session
yesterday for me, so when you'redoing equine therapy today, it
might be useful to look at this,this and this, so this very
collaborative care model yeah,that would be very unique, I'm
sure yeah, we have people comefrom all over the world as well
(37:59):
as all around Australia, sothere's not a lot of options
like the Banyan yeah.
Sam Miklos (38:02):
I was just going to say that this is quite a unique
facility.
Ruth Limkin (38:06):
Yeah, it is, and I'll make sure in a moment we
talk about our day programbecause that's very more
accessible for people.
But yeah, we have clients.
So the second biggest place orguest cohort is actually the US,
after Australia and thenSingapore.
But we've had people come fromthe UK and Middle East and,
(38:28):
because it's quite a rare, model.
Kate Coomber (38:30):
So how many people can you see at one?
Ruth Limkin (38:33):
time.
So we've got 10 in oneresidence and five in the other,
and then we've got our dayprogram.
Let me talk about this, andparticularly because the three
of us are women, I just want to.
Yeah, so I'm a big proponent oflistening to your customers,
your clients.
You know what's the need that'snot being met, where there's a
(38:55):
gap, that people aren't gettinghelp.
So I remember talking to someone.
This was probably five or sixyears ago now and she was in her
early 40s.
Her and her husband were bothworking professionals, two young
children, and I was talking toher.
She said I'm drinking a coupleof bottles of wine a night.
She said no one at work wouldknow I've totally got.
I'm on top of this.
(39:15):
They would have no idea.
She said I've tried to get somehelp.
I've been to the public system.
It's sort of this group.
She said I just can't resonatewith what's happening there.
I can't connect.
And she said so we were talkingthrough and I was talking about
our residential option, becausethat's all we had at the time.
She's like there is no way Ican get away for four weeks.
And she's like where is therefor someone like me?
Sam Miklos (39:39):
Because the residential, is it typically a
four-week commitment?
Ruth Limkin (39:42):
Yeah, so sort of three to four weeks if it's
something that needs a bit moreintensive, because you can't
sort of fix a long-term problemin one week.
Sam Miklos (39:52):
Yes.
Ruth Limkin (39:54):
And I had nowhere to refer her to.
So we corresponded by email alittle bit.
I was like you could try this,you could try this, you could
put together a bit of atreatment program for yourself.
But I saved her email on mydesktop and I thought one day
I'm going to have a program forpeople like her.
And then, a couple of yearslater, we opened our day program
(40:15):
, which is one day a week foreight weeks.
It's still the one-on-one modelof care.
So you see a psychiatrist, yousee a psychologist, clinical
nutritionist, exercisephysiologist, you do yoga as a
group, mindfulness, well-being,education it's all coordinated.
So you turn up in one beautifulplace.
(40:35):
It's in Bowen Hills.
It's really easy to access, butit's just all coordinated for
you not running around Brisbane,you know, on a six-month
waiting list yeah, exactly, andagain, those specialists are
talking about you and how theycan help you get better.
And one day a week is often alot more accessible for people,
so we've run that four days aweek now at the moment, so
(40:58):
people can choose which day ofthe week is going to be best for
them, even just being able toaccess a psychiatrist quickly is
very rare now at the moment, sopeople can choose which day of
the week is going to be best forthem.
Even just being able to access apsychiatrist quickly is very
rare.
But I'm really passionate aboutreducing barriers to accessing
care, because the quicker thatpeople can engage with care, we
often reduce the impact oftreatment.
Kate Coomber (41:16):
It's definitely having an impact on the
healthcare system in general,isn't it if?
Ruth Limkin (41:20):
we can be catching people and if we can be
proactive in our health versusthe reactive at the last minute
when it's too late that's wherewe were overwhelmed yeah, which
is why we do now the one dayhigh performance reset so like
just come in get a checkup youknow, maybe once a year you want
to do this what does that looklike?
Sam Miklos (41:39):
a high performance reset, yeah so it's it's.
Ruth Limkin (41:42):
So it's a session with a psychologist that often
is focused on what are themental blocks that you need to
remove?
Or you know how can you elevateyour mindset about different
things, and then you'll seeclinical nutritionists talking
about what's.
How are you fueling your body?
What's your body showing?
You know, how could you rethink?
What are some easy hacks sothat you're improving you know
your nutritional well-being.
(42:03):
It's seeing an exercisephysiologist doing some movement
activation working out wellwhat's actually going to work
that's sustainable.
It's that mindfulness coaching,it's that well-being education.
So it's sort of three quartersof a day, yeah, and it's just to
really help people optimizetheir well-being and hopefully
never get to a point of crisis.
Sam Miklos (42:23):
You know, when you talk about hacks like with all
the things we've covered todayis there sort of three hacks
where you're like if everyonejust did these three things, it
would just have that 1%.
Ruth Limkin (42:35):
Yep, yep, I've never actually had that question
put to me, but even as you'reasking, I was like I know the
three, oh, that's so good.
So one paying attention to oursleep, making sure we're getting
good night's sleep absolutelythe foundation of wellbeing,
social connection, so meaningfulrelationships and spending time
(42:57):
in nature.
Sam Miklos (42:58):
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (42:59):
They're all free, yeah, yeah.
Sam Miklos (43:02):
I remember you saying when, um, when I did the
day with you and you're like, ifyou just walk out and put your
feet, just put your feet in thegrass yeah, and I think one of
my things put my feet in thegrass and walk the dog around
the block.
It's just that simple that youdon't you kind of underestimate
having to be out and do a bighike or be in nature, exactly,
and I think we know these thingsfor our children too, and we do
them for our children, becausewe know, you know my daughter, I
(43:23):
picked her up from schoolyesterday and I had to wait for
my sons.
Kate Coomber (43:26):
I was like, right, get out and do some cartwheels,
because I know she will bebetter when we have to do that
drive home.
But we don't do them forourselves.
Ruth Limkin (43:35):
as adults we don't think about it and you know,
sometimes I think two women willoften put themselves last.
Yes, but helping peopleunderstand.
Sometimes the most responsiblething you can do for all of the
people who rely on you is learnhow to rest well.
Because when we rest well, wecan then perform well.
Sam Miklos (43:55):
How many hours of sleep a night should we be
getting?
Ruth Limkin (43:59):
So all the research says between seven and nine
hours.
So I have my.
Sam Miklos (44:04):
I use a sleep app, I set a target of seven and a
half hours and it's veryencouraging when your phone
gives you a little well done,you've hit your sleep goal this
many times in the last fortnight, and isn't someone used to say
I don't know if it was my motherlike an hour before midnight is
worth two after, is that?
Ruth Limkin (44:22):
like an old wives' tale.
Was that her way of getting me?
Sam Miklos (44:24):
into bed earlier.
Ruth Limkin (44:25):
There is actually a lot of research that shows
making sure you get to bed wellbefore midnight the quality is
better.
But there's a couple of likereally quick things you can do
to start improving your sleep.
So one stop caffeine six hoursbefore bed, because even if you
feel like it's not affecting you, the research shows you're
losing it objectively one hourof quality sleep a night because
(44:50):
the caffeine is interrupting.
Also, alcohol, which peopleoften use to wind down, disrupts
our REM sleep.
So not actually using alcoholas a sleep aid.
They're like just two reallysimple things that people can do
.
And then, not being on yourphone half an hour before bed,
maybe picking up a book.
There's some really simplethings we can do to start
(45:10):
improve, even if not, theduration yeah, the quality.
Sam Miklos (45:13):
Quality because isn't the alcohol before bed too
?
Is that with the 3am you getthe wake up because you're
pancreas, your liver, trying toprocess, and then your body is
just ready to go?
Kate Coomber (45:23):
Yeah, and is there science in waking up at a
similar time every day, on thesame token, like if sleep is so
valuable is it?
Ruth Limkin (45:33):
you know, routine helps yeah, our bodies respond
well to routine, both goodroutines and bad routines our
bodies get used to, so I thinkit just makes it easier for us.
You start sending signals toyour body that this is the time
we start winding down yeah thisis the plan.
Kate Coomber (45:50):
Yeah, so, cmr, make a donation to a charity of
every guest's choice, and we'dlove to talk about a charity of
your choice today.
Ruth Limkin (46:01):
I love Sober in the Country, so it's working with
particularly rural and regionalAustralians and encouraging
people that alcohol doesn't haveto be a part of your life.
And they're a small, amazingAustralian charity that are
punching way above their weight.
Our female founder just lovedthem, so I'd love a donation to
(46:22):
them.
That's fantastic.
I love hearing about charitieslike that.
Sam Miklos (46:26):
We've never heard about them, and just to shine a
light on that charity'spotential Sober in the country.
I love that.
Thank you, ruth.
Kate Coomber (46:34):
Oh pleasure.
Sam Miklos (46:35):
There's so many things we could get to you, and
just more, more, more, more.
Ruth Limkin (46:39):
I know we could talk for hours.
I know we could talk for hours.
I know we say that all the time.
Sam Miklos (46:42):
But I know with you, we were so excited to talk to
you and I think there's somereally good, just simple
strategies that even for us tobe able to give back to our
healthcare community or justlike raise awareness, even just
thinking about those sixdimensions in itself, Like you
know, sometimes we think aboutone or two, but not all six,
Hearing other people having thesame challenges.
I think is useful.
(47:03):
It's an incredible conversation.
We're so grateful, thank you.
Ruth Limkin (47:08):
Thanks for facilitating it.
Kate Coomber (47:15):
We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the
land of which we meet who, forcenturies, have shared ancient
methods of healing and cared fortheir communities.
We pay our respects to elders,past and present.
Today's guest has seen what happens when driven
high-achieving people push pasttheir limits without ever
stopping to ask am I okay?
Ruth Limkin (00:08):
It's a lot easier to hide problematic drinking and
substance use if you're workingfrom home, because it can be a
teacup.
We've worked with a reallysuccessful female leader and she
would open her first bottle ofwine at 9 o'clock in the morning
because she was working fromhome, ran a few companies and
she could, and she could and noone knew.
Second bottle of wine at 9o'clock in the morning because
she was working from home, ran afew companies and she could,
and she could and no one knew.
Second bottle of wine atlunchtime.
(00:29):
So by the time she was pickingthe kids up, two bottles of wine
.
Kate Coomber (00:34):
If you're enjoying these conversations, don't
forget to hit the follow andsubscribe button.
Sam Miklos (00:38):
We care for the land .
We see we care.
So today we meet Ruth Limkin,founder and managing director of
the Banyans, a world-renownedfacility here in southeast
Queensland providing one-to-onewraparound care for those who
may have experienced things likeburnout, grief, addiction or
(00:59):
trauma.
Welcome, ruth, to.
It Takes Heart.
Ruth Limkin (01:01):
Thank you, it's really great to be here.
Sam Miklos (01:03):
That one-to-one wraparound care, just that in
itself is so beautifully put.
Ruth Limkin (01:08):
It's remarkable when you see the reality of it
and honestly, I think it's whatwe would do for everyone in the
health system if we could.
Sam Miklos (01:16):
I know we can't in the reality.
Ruth Limkin (01:18):
but there are people who that's really the
only way that they'll accesscare and they're willing to
invest in that, so they deservetreatment too.
Sam Miklos (01:28):
Yeah, 100%, burnout is everywhere.
Ruth Limkin (01:30):
Absolutely.
Sam Miklos (01:32):
It is showing up in our workplaces, in our living
rooms.
We're hearing about it all thetime.
It's a topic that's a reallycommon theme in our healthcare
community.
A lot of our candidates ourclients are talking about
burnout, so we were reallygrateful to be able to have this
conversation with you today.
Kate Coomber (01:50):
Now I've got a quote that I believe you've said
it's going to be awkward if Iread this and you go that wasn't
me, so I managed to find theresearch.
Sam Miklos (01:58):
Let's see.
You've said we have to make iteasier to talk about what's hard
.
We have to remind people thatstrength doesn't mean silence,
but that strength comes fromstruggle and the overcoming of
it.
That was you, that was meExplain that.
What does that mean?
Ruth Limkin (02:13):
So I think we've had historically, and maybe
particularly in healthcare,because we put a focus on our
patients and the people thatwe're looking after and we're
meant to be the people with allthe answers and we're providing
a place of often strength forpeople to come to when they're
vulnerable.
But the the idea that we justhave to suck it up, you know,
(02:35):
press on, I think is a bit of anarrative that's been around
historically.
That's actually reallyunhelpful and actually weakens
us as individuals but alsoweakens the healthcare system,
because if we have this endemicsort of deterioration of
wellbeing happening under thesurface and we don't actually
shine the light on it and givepeople the opportunity to get
(02:57):
help early and to continue towork in a way that they can
while they're getting help, thenwe're actually making the whole
system weaker, and so it's verymuch an individual issue.
But it's not just an individualissue.
It's a system issue, it's alsoa cultural issue, it's a
community issue.
You know, our society worksbest when human flourishing
(03:19):
takes place, and we try andprovide that as a healthcare
system.
But we need to be enabling itfor health care practitioners
and you mentioned there's sortof a shift, like it's.
Kate Coomber (03:31):
It's really it's something we weren't talking
about toughen up years ago,certainly when we were growing
up, and yeah, you know it's um,like it's great to see a focus
on it, yeah, but I guess can youtalk to us about what is
burnout?
And maybe what it isn't,because I think in the same
token, yeah, like literally, weprobably speak about it every
(03:51):
single day with someone yeah, weare having a conversation with.
Ruth Limkin (03:54):
Yes so it was really interesting because a
world health organizationactually classed burnout as a
condition about five years ago.
Uh, was that?
Maybe?
Sam Miklos (04:04):
a little bit, it was .
It Was that pre-COVID.
Ruth Limkin (04:06):
It was actually pre-COVID which means it was
longer than five years ago,because it's now been five years
since COVID and I was lookingat it and they specifically link
it to workload and workplaces.
However, as I was looking atthat, I was like I actually
think that's a false, notdiagnosis but a false definition
, because Because, yes, it showsup and there are contributors
(04:29):
in the workforce and theworkplace and workloads, but I
actually think all of life atthe moment, you know, cost of
living is a pressure that adds,and then the always on
connection and the you knowpeople expecting very quick
turnarounds of information isanother, and the you know people
expecting very quickturnarounds of information is
another.
(04:53):
You know, the Banyans has seen a684% increase in inquiries for
stress and burnout in the lastcouple of years, which is
phenomenal.
So one that concerns me, buttwo that comforts me that people
are actually reaching out andacknowledging it, and I think
COVID was a contributor towhat's going on in leadership,
wellbeing and healthcarewellbeing, but it's actually
also started to provoke aconversation about it.
So it's been both part of theproblem, but I think it creates
(05:16):
an environment where we can talkabout it a little bit more.
Sam Miklos (05:18):
So what does burnout ?
Ruth Limkin (05:19):
look like you know, because I feel like too.
Sam Miklos (05:22):
At times it's a term where we go.
I'll say I'm just burnt out.
Ruth Limkin (05:25):
Yes, yeah.
Sam Miklos (05:26):
But is there a spectrum of burnout?
Ruth Limkin (05:29):
So I think there's a difference between being worn
out and burnt out.
So you know, sometimes worn outis just it's been a really big
week or a really big month or aseason of weeks where there's
been a lot of travel or whateverhas been going on.
You've got deadlines, but youcan recharge from that.
If you're just intentionalabout it.
Burnout there's often a senseof reduced efficacy, so you're
(05:51):
not as effective in your jobanymore.
There's you, you can't recharge.
You try and do the things thatyou know normally to do
hopefully that you know normallyto do and it you can't work out
and it's just this, unable tobounce back.
So you know, sometimes peopleflame out.
But burnout is this steadyaccumulation of everything
(06:14):
that's going on and theinability to get up from over
that.
Kate Coomber (06:18):
So I guess one of the early warning signs perhaps,
and then leading into you knowwhen are people really catching
themselves?
Yeah what are the phases?
Ruth Limkin (06:28):
so one of the things I'm really passionate
about at the banyans is I oftensay I would love to put myself
out of business, because Ireally like talking about the
fact that if we, particularly asleaders and as health care
professionals, can be takingproactive, preventative steps,
so no one gets to that kind ofcrisis point.
So we do.
We have a range of moreproactive.
(06:49):
We call it a high performancereset.
It's a one day where someonecan come in and have a mindset
recharge.
You know, talk to an exercisephysiologist, talk to the
clinical nutritionist, do somemindfulness in the same way that
we get our car serviced.
It's kind of like going in for abit of a checkup but for our
whole well-being.
And so I think you know ifsomeone's listening to this and
(07:12):
they're thinking am I just wornout or am I getting burnt out?
So some of the things sleep isactually a really good indicator
If you're waking up everymorning and you're still
exhausted, if you can't get tosleep, or if you wake that
dreaded 2 am wake up and thenyou can't get back if that's
happening, not just occasionally, because sometimes that just
(07:34):
happens, but this is happeningtime after time, that's actually
a really important signal thatwe need to be looking at.
A loss of joy, um, you know,just that sense of nothing.
There's no joy in your soul.
Um, this sense of you know.
Sometimes also your immunesystem is very affected, so
(07:55):
you're just always getting sickor you can't get over things and
do you think?
Kate Coomber (07:58):
unless you're really in tune with yourself,
those things are actually hardto spot, because you're busy and
I haven't noticed that I don'thave joy and you think about the
healthcare professionals whoare doing shift work and crazy
hours Soldering on and keepgoing, keep going.
I imagine they're quiteactually difficult to notice.
Ruth Limkin (08:15):
Which is why these conversations are so important.
So it's so great that you'redoing it because the more that
we talk about it, we can't moveto action if there's no
awareness.
We also don't want to get stuckin awareness but, they both
work together.
We need awareness and talkingabout it, and maybe someone's
listening to this on their wayto work or something like that,
(08:35):
and they're like, oh, actually,you're describing my world at
the moment, can you just?
Sam Miklos (08:42):
sorry to jump in.
But I was just going to say canyou recover from burnout?
Ruth Limkin (08:45):
Absolutely.
Sam Miklos (08:46):
And how long does it take?
Ruth Limkin (08:48):
So, again, this is why talking about it and early
intervention is really important, because the sooner that you
recognise something's going on,often the quicker that you can
recover and less is the impactof treatment that's needed.
And it could be something thatyou start doing while you're
still going about your life orit could be at the point where
(09:08):
you need to take some time out.
I remember talking to someoneyears ago at the Banyans.
I was answering the phone andhe ran a company and he said, oh
, the wheels haven't fallen off,but they're really wobbly.
And I said now's the time to dosomething.
So we redesigned a program thatwe have called the Rest and
Refresh and you know, if we canstart to recognise when the
(09:30):
wheels are a bit wobbly beforethey fall off, then actually
it's a really smart investmentin our health.
Sam Miklos (09:37):
You know with blood tests show like your cortisol
levels are high or adrenalfatigue.
Are they also early signs?
Or if you're in adrenaloverload, is it too late?
Ruth Limkin (09:48):
Well, it's never too late, yeah, sorry, no,
that's right Like are youalready there?
Sam Miklos (09:53):
Yeah, if you're getting that adrenal fatigue, I
think you are at the point whereyou absolutely need to do
something, yeah.
Ruth Limkin (10:00):
But again there's.
I don't ever want people tofeel hopeless or helpless, and
so there are really.
You know, we do have a greathealthcare system in Australia,
even though people who areworking in it are finding it
difficult.
There are always options, andat different levels.
Kate Coomber (10:20):
Let's talk about those options then, because you
said that if someone's listeningand they're thinking yes, and,
like you said, it's never toolate and early intervention and
people often have tried andthey're actually struggling to
get into resources or they can'tafford resources or you know
you've got some psychiatristsyou know working off because
they're not comfortable.
They can provide safe care.
(10:41):
Yeah, where do people go?
Ruth Limkin (10:44):
So I think the first thing is go to someone you
know and trust.
Um, so you know, interestingly,one of the best predictors for
well-being according to theworld's longest well-being study
, the Harvard adult developmentstudy is supportive social
relationships.
So, at a very minimum, movingout of a sense of isolation into
a sense of connection is themost important first step, and
(11:08):
even just not feeling likeyou've got to solve this
yourself is really important.
So you know, going to someoneeither that you work with or in
your family or a friend orsomething like that, and saying,
hey, look, I'm actually notdoing great and I just need to
find a way forward for that, andcan you help me?
And I just need to find a wayforward for that, and can you
help me?
And if you're the person whogets that question, you say,
(11:29):
yeah, I don't know what yet, butlet's do it together.
So it's okay, you don't have tobe the fount of all wisdom.
I think going in if you've got agood, trusted GP going and
talking to your GP is the firststep, obviously, we all know
there's referrals for mentalhealth care plans and those
kinds of things and you know,yes, there can be a bit of a
(11:49):
waiting list for psychology, butthere's also amazing telehealth
psychology services around.
So I met an incredible leader.
She came to one of ourleadership wellbeing dinners in
Sydney, philippa Brown, who runsMeHelp.
It's Medicare funded telehealth, psychologyhealth, psychology.
So you know, people can jump onthat website and book something
in and sometimes all you haveto do is have one, two, three
(12:12):
sessions and just start.
You know that in and of itselfis giving you agency.
You're starting to do something, you're getting some great
tools.
I was talking to someone theother day and for the first time
they went and saw apsychologist about something
that had been bugging them foryears and even after one session
they're like I've got somereally good tools now and, yes,
they're going back to see someothers.
Kate Coomber (12:34):
But never underestimate the power of one
great session yeah, I thinkthat's really good to know,
because I think people mightfeel it's too big of problem and
a couple of days off isn'tgoing to change or help me feel
better.
So I think it's really positiveto hear that you can have that
really great feeling absolutelyoff just one session, and I
(12:56):
think you talked aboutconnection there as well.
Sam Miklos (12:58):
We were talking about that yesterday.
Kate Coomber (13:00):
Um, you know the interlink with covid and people
being disconnected you, you justmentioned the huge spike.
Yeah, and I'm sure that hassome contributing factors there.
What are you seeing in theworld we live in now?
That's different aroundconnection.
Ruth Limkin (13:13):
So we are more fragmented and it's really
interesting.
You know work from home.
I was just thinking that I waslike do I ask you about work
from?
Home, let's go there.
Yeah, let's go there.
Yeah, let's go there.
Sam Miklos (13:26):
Let's be brave yeah.
Ruth Limkin (13:27):
So we know that social connection is really
important for mental health andwellbeing.
A lot of people, a lot of themost important relationships in
their world or the best sense ofsocial connection actually is
in the workplace, and it's notthe same quality if you're
dialling in to a screen inback-to-back meetings.
It's just not the case.
So I'm not saying everyone hasto return to the office five
(13:49):
days a week, but I think workingisolated by yourself from a
screen five days a week isreally detrimental to your
health and well-being, and oftenlonger than you would in the
office.
Kate Coomber (14:00):
Absolutely, I think people think people are
not working at home and that'sthe issue, but.
Ruth Limkin (14:08):
I read something yesterday to say it's actually
the reverse, yes, and people areworking too much at home and
not having the breaks.
Yeah, you know the interaction,the social, the water cooler
chat yeah, and you know, one ofthe other things that we see at
the banyans is um, and again,let's go there um.
So it's a lot easier to hideproblematic drinking and
substance use if you're workingfrom home, because it can be a
teacup.
(14:28):
You know, we've worked with areally successful female leader
and she would open her firstbottle of wine at 9 o'clock in
the morning because she wasworking from home ran a few
companies and she could.
And she could and no one knew.
Second bottle of wine atlunchtime.
So by the time she's pickingthe kids up two bottles of wine.
So I think you know, socialconnection has a lot of
(14:49):
protective factors and we needto think about that when we
think about what does work andlife look like?
Kate Coomber (14:55):
Yeah, I think sometimes we show up more for
others than we do for ourselves,and I guess it comes down to
that If you're at home, you'reonly having to show up for
yourself.
Sam Miklos (15:04):
Yeah, it's probably not the best version sometimes.
While we're on the workplace,then I know, said that you know,
the world health organizationwas attributing it to the
workplace.
Yeah, what, um, what do we needto be doing?
You know, as an employer, whatand you know with the, with the,
the days that we're in now isthe little micro changes that we
(15:26):
can do?
Or, and also, how do we bettersupport people who are feeling
burnt out?
Kate Coomber (15:30):
or worn out, as you said.
Said or recognize it, evenrecognize it.
Sam Miklos (15:33):
Yeah, you know we've got eap programs, but it's like
but then you said that going,you can have three sessions,
like okay, well, there's eap,there's, there's little steps
there so I think it's making itpart of the conversation all of
the time and I think as leadersalso, we have to model that.
Ruth Limkin (15:48):
So I'm really deliberate.
There's a particular gym classthat I love going to that starts
at 4.30 and it's just acrossthe road from where I work, and
I normally work till after 4.30,but most weeks during the week
I'll go and get changed into mygym gear and go and say goodbye
to everyone in the officebecause I know I'm going to that
(16:09):
class to send a really clearsignal that actually doing
things for our well-being isreally important and I'm going
to do it as the leader, and sothat gives you permission to
just be having theseconversations and talking about
what's needed.
I think also, I'm always reallyclear about the fact I see a
(16:29):
psychologist once every sixmonths at different seasons.
I've done that more, but I'd putthat in the diary as a check-in
in the same way that I get mycar tuned up, like one time I
was driving there and I was likeI've got nothing to say.
Sam Miklos (16:43):
I don't know how I'm going to fill this session.
Yeah, yeah, I'm good.
I'm really good at the minute.
Ruth Limkin (16:47):
yeah, then you sit down.
She asked, asks one question.
It's like okay, 45 minuteslater, but it's someone outside
of your world that you canbounce things across and process
things with.
I think so little things likestanding desks and maybe you
can't afford to swap all thedesks in your office, but just
think, like I often say topeople and I actually really
(17:09):
encourage people to take controlof their own wellbeing, so
don't outsource it to youremployer or your workplace.
There's fundamental, simple,cheap or free things we can do
to look after our own wellbeing.
I know this might sound strangefor someone who's on the ward
and on their feet all the time,but for people at a desk, even
just standing up whenever you'remaking a phone call.
Sam Miklos (17:30):
Do you know?
Ruth Limkin (17:31):
standing, instead of sitting, for three to four
hours a day, is the equivalentactivity output of running 10
marathons a year.
Sam Miklos (17:40):
I have heard that.
Ruth Limkin (17:41):
I couldn't remember how many.
Kate Coomber (17:43):
Yes, that was you then, and I remember, because we
do have stand-up desks.
Sam Miklos (17:46):
And you know what drives me wild is everyone goes
and sits with them and everyonewanted them and I'm like let's
stand up, but then I'm probablynot modelling it.
Ruth Limkin (17:54):
I'm going to test out my husband.
Kate Coomber (17:55):
He used to love them.
He was always there and youused to do yoga in the office at
lunch.
Sam Miklos (18:01):
And you know, I think it's a consistency piece,
isn't it?
If you're?
Kate Coomber (18:03):
doing that class at 4.30 every day.
It sometimes is easy to deviate.
Sam Miklos (18:08):
Yeah, you definitely get distracted, don't we?
So?
It's really it's keeping thoseconsistent, positive actions,
yeah, yeah, Do you know if youknow if someone's at work and
you know if they're looking likethey're recognising the signs
and they're not finding joy intheir work?
Can that get confused with?
You know I'm burnt out, butactually it might be as simple
(18:31):
as a shift to a new environment.
Ruth Limkin (18:33):
Yeah, yeah, or a new role, or maybe the job that
they're in they've outgrown.
Sam Miklos (18:39):
Yeah, which is okay, absolutely.
Ruth Limkin (18:42):
Occupational wellbeing is one of the six
dimensions of wellbeing.
Sam Miklos (18:45):
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (18:46):
And that doesn't mean you have to stay in the
same job for the rest of yourlife in order for, although you
can.
Kate Coomber (18:53):
To be fair, I've had a thousand jobs in the one
business We've been together for13 years.
Sam Miklos (18:59):
I'm like you know.
Give me five, I'll send you toRuth if you like, end of it.
Kate Coomber (19:03):
So yes, you mentioned there the dimensions
of wellness.
Can you talk to us about that?
Ruth Limkin (19:07):
Yeah, so one of the things when I first started the
Banyans, I found a version ofdimensions of wellbeing that the
National Wellness Institute putout, but we changed it because
we recognised actually ourwellbeing is much more
integrated.
So it's not like there's sixdiscrete areas of wellbeing, but
there's six facets of wellbeingand they all influence each
other, which is actually reallygood news because it means you
(19:30):
don't have to do six differentthings to improve your
well-being.
I remember doing this with you.
Sam Miklos (19:34):
now, that's right.
I'm like I've done this withyou and it was so powerful.
Ruth Limkin (19:42):
So we actually did this with the Broncos.
This week.
We're doing some well-beingworkshops with their staff, but
then also with some of theircorporate partners, because and
shout out to the Broncos they'redoing Australia's first mental
health jersey this week, becausethey really want to spark
conversations about mentalhealth and wellbeing.
Kate Coomber (20:01):
Yes, you talked, then, about the dimensions of
wellbeing.
What are they?
Ruth Limkin (20:06):
Okay, well, look, there's six of them and I'll run
you through them quickly andthen I'll talk to you about how
we did some work on the model.
So there's physical wellbeing,social wellbeing, emotional
wellbeing, occupationalwellbeing, intellectual
wellbeing and spiritualwellbeing.
Sam Miklos (20:22):
The good news is for anyone who's feeling a little
bit overwhelmed about they'vegot to do six different things,
just like a water heater,because I've done this with you
and I remember seeing it all andgoing this is a lot.
Kate Coomber (20:32):
How do I?
Fix six parts of me that need abit of work, exactly.
Ruth Limkin (20:37):
Do they all need work?
Yeah, so the good news?
So we didn't make thosedimensions up.
I found a model of wellbeingfrom the National Wellness
Institute, but they had eachdimension as very discreet.
I said that's actually not howreal life works, that's not how
our body works, and so we'veredeveloped the model to show
that they're all integrated,which is really good news,
(21:00):
because what we know is that ifyou make one positive change in
one of those dimensions, itactually often produces positive
outcomes in the otherdimensions as well.
So you can just do one thingand that can create positive
difference in various dimensions.
And so I always say to peoplelike, particularly for people
who are highly responsible,a-type personalities driven,
(21:22):
you're not allowed to do morethan one thing.
Sam Miklos (21:25):
Yeah, I remember sitting there and being like
you've said do three.
Kate Coomber (21:29):
I was like I'm in the calendar.
Sam Miklos (21:31):
I'll do seven.
Yeah, yeah.
Ruth Limkin (21:33):
So just doing one thing that's free and that's
sustainable.
And I often also say to peopledon't try and start something,
because if you already feel likeyour life is overfull or you're
overwhelmed, that's not goingto get a lot of traction.
So I say just stop or swap.
Yeah, stop doing something orswap something out.
Sam Miklos (21:55):
And I was just going to say from memory, when I did
this with you, the actualactions, yeah, were quite easy
things.
Kate Coomber (22:02):
Yes, that's where I was going to go.
What are some examples of them?
Sam Miklos (22:06):
So I remember they were a bit like oh, that's
pretty obvious and I could dothat.
Ruth Limkin (22:11):
So like one really simple thing which is free.
So there's a lot of researchthat shows if we walk in nature
as opposed to walking in urbanenvironments, our cortisol
levels, that stress hormone,goes down by over 12%.
So you can reduce your stresslevels by walking in nature,
which is free to do.
So you're improving your socialwell-being because nature is
(22:35):
part of social well-being yourphysical and your emotional
well-being by going for a walkin nature, and if you do that
with a friend, like if you say,hey, once a month, why don't we
go for a bushwalk at MountCoot-tha?
Sam Miklos (22:47):
or something like that.
Ruth Limkin (22:49):
That's one thing you can do which feels fairly
sustainable and you're improvinglots of different dimensions of
your well-being.
Another really important thingwhich might feel a little bit
harder for anyone who'slistening, particularly if
they're a shift worker is payingattention to our sleep.
So there's a really interestingphenomenon that has been coined
(23:12):
revenge.
Kate Coomber (23:13):
Bedtime procrastination have you heard
of this one.
Ruth Limkin (23:16):
I haven't Revenge bedtime procrastination, so it's
something that's happening morewith women than men, but not
just women and it's people whofeel like they don't really have
control of their day and lifeis really busy and really full
and everyone else gets theirtime.
Then, at the end of the day,when they're really tired,
instead of going to bed, theytake what they feel like is
(23:39):
control of some time and theyeither binge stuff on Netflix or
scroll on their phone this.
Sam Miklos (23:45):
I like scrolling.
I mean I speak to like friendswhere they'll be like yeah, I
just went down a rabbit hole foran hour.
Kate Coomber (23:50):
Yeah, I'm not just scrolling, but I definitely
identify with that.
Sam Miklos (23:55):
I feel like everyone has taken everything from me
today, having two young children, and I've been there for
everyone.
Kate Coomber (24:01):
Yeah, and as tired as I am, I'm not ready to go to
sleep because I'm not ready tostart again.
Ruth Limkin (24:06):
Yes, yeah, that's profound.
Sam Miklos (24:10):
You've got this.
This is your experience.
Kate Coomber (24:13):
Yeah, so I'll set myself usually a timer You'd be
like.
I realise I don't have a lot oftime but I just need something.
Yeah, often it just wants to besomething.
I don't need to use my brain.
Ruth Limkin (24:27):
So that can actually be a really great thing
if it's not something likescrolling on your phone.
One of the problems withscrolling with your phone is,
whenever you're discoveringsomething new, your brain
releases little hits of dopamine, which promotes wakefulness,
not sleepfulness, and you've gotthe blue light I guess yeah, so
there's lots of better thingthat could be done so it depends
like something that you enjoyso if, for example, you love
(24:48):
great, maybe you love mysterynovels or something like that, a
paper book particularly youpick that up and you're going to
like 15 minutes, 20 minutes anight I'm going to read my
favourite mystery novel, or Idon't know, maybe people like
I'm not a knitter but maybeknitting or a jigsaw puzzle or
whatever.
Maybe it's a gratitude journalyou know that's a really
(25:10):
powerful way.
Or maybe it's journaling yourday in there, yeah.
Sam Miklos (25:13):
Why is gratitude and journaling so powerful?
Ruth Limkin (25:15):
Yeah, it's amazing.
So the scientific research thatshows.
So there was one study donewhere every night someone wrote
I'm grateful for and they justthree things and they didn't
just do a dot point of my dog,my husband, my job and the next
day my dog, my husband, my job,it was like today I'm grateful
for.
Today I'm grateful for and bydoing that for six weeks their
(25:39):
level of depression reduced.
So gratitude reframes our wholeworld for us.
Sam Miklos (25:46):
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (25:47):
And it helps us start to look for the things
that are good, which makes ahuge difference to our emotional
wellbeing and probably alsowhen we think about the people
in our life we're grateful forit encourages us to reach out to
them, which is that socialconnection, yeah.
Kate Coomber (26:01):
Do you see that really effective in the
workplace, where you knowactually, because at work you
typically are solving problems,you're dealing with challenges
you're overcoming hurdles.
That's why a lot of us do it inour day.
Ruth Limkin (26:13):
Leadership is problem solving.
Kate Coomber (26:16):
Is there a really great link for that gratitude at
work sometimes where maybe weneed to do that more in terms of
, you know, I think celebratingwins is really important.
Ruth Limkin (26:25):
They don't have to be big wins, but celebrating
wins is really important.
You know great customerfeedback or patient feedback, or
you know particularly if peopleare working in difficult.
So we work in mental health andaddiction.
Sometimes we're carrying a lotof people's pain.
So you know, one of our valuesat the Banyans is joy.
So we want people to rediscovertheir joy.
(26:47):
But we also want an environmentwhere we know how to steward
and cultivate joy really well inour own life.
So laughing together you knoweating together.
Yeah, it's actually reallyimportant creating a life-giving
environment.
Kate Coomber (27:03):
That's interesting .
So I think that compassionfatigue is something that's come
up with so many of theseconversations within the
healthcare industry, but alsowithin our.
Team here supporting healthcareprofessionals, but obviously
the healthcare professionalscaring for others.
Team here supporting healthcareprofessionals, but obviously
the healthcare professionalscaring for others.
Yes, that's a big challenge,it's huge.
Sam Miklos (27:19):
What about gratitude , then?
What about the role of, likemeditation or breath work, like
that seems to be an emergingtrend too.
Ruth Limkin (27:25):
Yeah, mindfulness breath work, yeah, absolutely, I
did a course.
Sam Miklos (27:28):
recently I realised I couldn't breathe.
My stomach was like.
I was like what's happening,like why is it?
Not, You're calling me like I'mlearning to breathe.
I'm learning to breathe and I'mlike this is the opposite.
My tummy's going in theopposite direction, but it feels
normal, Like is there a placefor that, and I think, if you
think about the healthcare work,it's like it's a small little
step.
Ruth Limkin (27:51):
Yeah, absolutely minute micro break doing some
really good mindfulness, reallygood breath work again.
It's this free way to hackwhat's happening in your body or
your mind, and there's so muchresearch that shows, you know,
the benefit to our emotional andphysical well-being.
There's so many free thingsthat we can do that don't have
to take a lot of time, thatdon't cost anything, and we can
often embed them into our lifealready, so we're not making it
(28:16):
a burden on people, yeah, whichis why I think I really
encourage people to take controlof their own well-being rather
than outsource it because Ithink, um, coming out of COVID
too, like as an employer, therewas so much like employers need
to do this, this, this, we needto offer all the things.
Sam Miklos (28:34):
So it kind of has felt a little bit outsourced.
And I think all the programsand different things we put in
over the years.
We just do yoga in here and wedo meditation, but if people
aren't going to turn up, andalso like you can have yoga or
meditation or something in theoffice.
Ruth Limkin (28:54):
But if you're awake till 1am because you're
scrolling on your phone for twohours, you're actually
self-sabotaging.
So you know, I think it is apartnership.
As employers, we have a dutynot to create an environment
that's going to cause damage,but we can't fix things that are
happening outside of theworkplace necessarily.
Kate Coomber (29:14):
I think when you touched on earlier, when you
were talking about how it'sdescribed, I think you said the
definition is technicallyoccupational.
Ruth Limkin (29:21):
Yeah.
Kate Coomber (29:22):
Work stress or what burnout is.
Yeah, we were talking becausefor a lot of people, work is the
part that actually brings themjoy.
And it's the noise around them,the juggling of the family the
extracurriculars.
Sam Miklos (29:35):
That now happen with children.
Kate Coomber (29:36):
It seems to be through the roof.
It's the pressures outside ofwork, economic pressures.
Yeah the cost of living and allof those other things actually
I feel.
Sam Miklos (29:46):
Sometimes it can feel like it's work Could be
more of a contributor sometimes,you know.
Kate Coomber (29:54):
So it's kind of looking at both of those lenses
of how to support people herebut yeah, how to give them the
tools to support, yeah, externalto that.
Ruth Limkin (29:57):
Ultimately, I believe that me as an individual
, I am responsible for mywell-being and you know I, if,
if I was in an environment that,for whatever reason like
sometimes the workplace itselfcan be great, but you're in a
role that absolutely clasheswith what your strength set is,
it's going to affect you.
(30:17):
You know, I'm a discfacilitator and so I remember
when I did the training theysaid if someone's in a role
that's actually contradictory totheir strengths, in 18 months
it will show up in their health.
So that's not even anythingabout the workplace, but it's
about a role fit issue.
And so we have to takeresponsibility for our own
wellbeing and make decisionsaround that.
Kate Coomber (30:39):
Yeah, because it's a strength versus capability.
Right, it's not to say theycan't do that job, but it's
actually draining their energyBecause that's not their
strength, exactly.
Sam Miklos (30:50):
What about the impact of things like chat GPT?
I think I saw an article.
I think it was in the Timeswhere so many young people are
just chat GPT.
Here's my symptoms, or they'dprefer the anonymity as well.
How do I deal with this?
What is that?
Where's the place for AI and isit influencing therapy?
Ruth Limkin (31:17):
Yeah, I saw something recently which showed
the top use case for chat GBT inthe last 12 months was therapy.
Sam Miklos (31:24):
Yes.
Which terrifies me it is.
Ruth Limkin (31:27):
Right, so I think chat GBT.
So, first of all, big fan ofusing AI to streamline things to
make it more efficient.
There's a place to find that Iam currently using chat GPT to
do my low-carb meal planning andI said I'm happy to do some
meal planning.
Kate Coomber (31:43):
You said that yeah , I was like you've actually
changed my life.
How have I not thought aboutthis?
Because.
Sam Miklos (31:48):
I'm on chat GPT every day.
She came bursting into me.
I was like I'm doing lunchboxprep and it's been fantastic.
Kate Coomber (31:54):
It means when.
Ruth Limkin (31:54):
I get home from work 10 minutes of assembling
the meal because I've done somemeal prep on the weekend.
So I think it can actually be areal tool for us and I think AI
and Chachi Bt and other thingscan be an adjunct to our life,
but they shouldn't be the thingthat we rely on.
And you know, particularly fortherapy, I wouldn't trust it and
(32:18):
it's not going to be aseffective, because we do know
that social connection mattersand you can't have social
connection Like I think.
I'm really hopeful for AI inthe future.
You know, I know a lot of ourclinicians can now use AI for
note-taking, so not necessarilyrecording the session, but
afterwards they can.
You know you can use voicetranscription.
Kate Coomber (32:41):
Which would save loads of time compared to being
in OT and writing all your notesout, and also the room for
error right to actually get thedetail correct.
Ruth Limkin (32:50):
Yeah, exactly, so it can really.
I once heard someone say in thelast 12 months it's likely that
your job won't be replaced byAI, but you'll be replaced by
someone who knows how to use AI.
Sam Miklos (33:03):
Yeah, that is so true.
Ruth Limkin (33:06):
So I'm very pro, but it's never going to replace
people and the power of humanconnection.
Sam Miklos (33:12):
Also, too, if you're , you know something as good as
what you feed into it, right,yeah?
So if you're not giving all ofthe information or if it's your,
I know you said we need to likegive it a name our own little
chat GPT person but if it's that, it's the bias as well, yes,
exactly, yeah, it's a tool.
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (33:35):
And like any tool, it can create destruction or it
can build something, so it's ourresponsibility to use it really
well.
Sam Miklos (33:40):
Tell us about the Banyans.
Ruth Limkin (33:42):
The Banyans is amazing.
We've just celebrated our ninthbirthday recently.
Happy birthday, thank you,thank you, I'm already thinking
about what we should do for our10 years.
We talk about we help peoplefind fullness of life, and we
really do so.
We started with residentialservices.
(34:02):
So particularly for people whoare professionals, leaders,
people who think I've kind ofgot to the end of my rope, I hit
a bit of a crisis, could be ahealth crisis.
it could be like a family memberhas looked at them and said
you're not doing okay and youneed some help, and so, whether
it's mental health, whether it'saddiction, whether it's burnout
(34:25):
, sort of that chronic stress,whether it's eating disorders,
it's this wrapar care and it'sall one-on-one therapy.
So there's no group therapy,and group therapy is a great
modality, but for people whowon't engage in group, it's no
use Exactly or the confidenceeven to speak in a group, for
(34:45):
some people would be quite andyou know, if there's PTSD, you
can be re-traumatisedby other people in the group.
So you know, particularly formedical professionals, they like
the fact that they can come andactually just talk to someone
privately rather than in a group.
So they feel much moreconfident and you actually get a
lot more done if it's just youand your therapist, rather than
(35:06):
you and 14 people in a group.
So people come sometimes for, asI think I mentioned earlier,
that kind of proactive, like I'mgoing to do, a one week rest
and refresh, or it could be sortof four weeks or so for
something that needs a bit moreintensive support.
We track our clinical outcomesbecause we are in a beautiful
environment so we want you knowparticularly referring
(35:32):
healthcare practitioners to knowthat we're getting absolutely
incredible clinical outcomes.
So our clinical director sentme some information the other
day and he had to explain it inlayperson terms for me.
He's like I don't know ifyou've seen this, it's
extraordinary and that's theeffect size for the banyans,
which is far above what youwould see.
The results for antidepressantsor anything like that.
(35:52):
You know, we know that theDAS21 scores depression, anxiety
and stress.
You know 96.3% of our clientsreport and improve in their
mental health and it's generallyaround for each of those
measures on the DAS 21, over 60%and for the Leeds Dependency
Questionnaire where there'saddiction, over 70%.
(36:14):
So I love what we do.
I often say to our team what wedo is really hard.
We're supporting people in painand they're you know know, the
most courageous thing sometimesthat you can say is I need some
help and I can't do it myself.
So it's really hard for peopleand so we just provide this
beautiful wraparound care.
It's very clinically intense.
(36:35):
People see about 14 cliniciansevery week in the comprehensive
program talk us through that sowhat types of clinicians are
they seeing?
Everything, that's a lot.
Sam Miklos (36:44):
I was going to say what is wraparound care in this
context.
Ruth Limkin (36:49):
So in our comprehensive program they'll
see a psychiatrist, they'll seetheir psychologist four times a
week, they'll see the clinicalnutritionist, they'll see
registered nurses, they will seeexercise physiologists,
registered art therapists,neurologic music therapists.
There's yoga therapists.
Some of my staff are going tobe devastated because I haven't
(37:13):
mentioned them.
Sam Miklos (37:14):
Oh no, we'll shout out to them.
Ruth Limkin (37:16):
That's right.
It's just.
It's incredible just seeingwhat people do and the way that.
So one of the other things thatI think is really magical,
which I wish we could do inevery health care system, is
every morning, the entiretreating team get together for
up to 45 minutes and they talkthrough our different guests and
(37:36):
this is what's happening forthis person, so maybe equine
therapy, for instance.
You know this was what washappening in this person so
maybe or equine therapy, forinstance.
You know this was what washappening in this session
yesterday for me, so when you'redoing equine therapy today, it
might be useful to look at this,this and this, so this very
collaborative care model yeah,that would be very unique, I'm
sure yeah, we have people comefrom all over the world as well
(37:59):
as all around Australia, sothere's not a lot of options
like the Banyan yeah.
Sam Miklos (38:02):
I was just going to say that this is quite a unique
facility.
Ruth Limkin (38:06):
Yeah, it is, and I'll make sure in a moment we
talk about our day programbecause that's very more
accessible for people.
But yeah, we have clients.
So the second biggest place orguest cohort is actually the US,
after Australia and thenSingapore.
But we've had people come fromthe UK and Middle East and,
(38:28):
because it's quite a rare, model.
Kate Coomber (38:30):
So how many people can you see at one?
Ruth Limkin (38:33):
time.
So we've got 10 in oneresidence and five in the other,
and then we've got our dayprogram.
Let me talk about this, andparticularly because the three
of us are women, I just want to.
Yeah, so I'm a big proponent oflistening to your customers,
your clients.
You know what's the need that'snot being met, where there's a
(38:55):
gap, that people aren't gettinghelp.
So I remember talking to someone.
This was probably five or sixyears ago now and she was in her
early 40s.
Her and her husband were bothworking professionals, two young
children, and I was talking toher.
She said I'm drinking a coupleof bottles of wine a night.
She said no one at work wouldknow I've totally got.
I'm on top of this.
(39:15):
They would have no idea.
She said I've tried to get somehelp.
I've been to the public system.
It's sort of this group.
She said I just can't resonatewith what's happening there.
I can't connect.
And she said so we were talkingthrough and I was talking about
our residential option, becausethat's all we had at the time.
She's like there is no way Ican get away for four weeks.
And she's like where is therefor someone like me?
Sam Miklos (39:39):
Because the residential, is it typically a
four-week commitment?
Ruth Limkin (39:42):
Yeah, so sort of three to four weeks if it's
something that needs a bit moreintensive, because you can't
sort of fix a long-term problemin one week.
Sam Miklos (39:52):
Yes.
Ruth Limkin (39:54):
And I had nowhere to refer her to.
So we corresponded by email alittle bit.
I was like you could try this,you could try this, you could
put together a bit of atreatment program for yourself.
But I saved her email on mydesktop and I thought one day
I'm going to have a program forpeople like her.
And then, a couple of yearslater, we opened our day program
(40:15):
, which is one day a week foreight weeks.
It's still the one-on-one modelof care.
So you see a psychiatrist, yousee a psychologist, clinical
nutritionist, exercisephysiologist, you do yoga as a
group, mindfulness, well-being,education it's all coordinated.
So you turn up in one beautifulplace.
(40:35):
It's in Bowen Hills.
It's really easy to access, butit's just all coordinated for
you not running around Brisbane,you know, on a six-month
waiting list yeah, exactly, andagain, those specialists are
talking about you and how theycan help you get better.
And one day a week is often alot more accessible for people,
so we've run that four days aweek now at the moment, so
(40:58):
people can choose which day ofthe week is going to be best for
them, even just being able toaccess a psychiatrist quickly is
very rare now at the moment, sopeople can choose which day of
the week is going to be best forthem.
Even just being able to access apsychiatrist quickly is very
rare.
But I'm really passionate aboutreducing barriers to accessing
care, because the quicker thatpeople can engage with care, we
often reduce the impact oftreatment.
Kate Coomber (41:16):
It's definitely having an impact on the
healthcare system in general,isn't it if?
Ruth Limkin (41:20):
we can be catching people and if we can be
proactive in our health versusthe reactive at the last minute
when it's too late that's wherewe were overwhelmed yeah, which
is why we do now the one dayhigh performance reset so like
just come in get a checkup youknow, maybe once a year you want
to do this what does that looklike?
Sam Miklos (41:39):
a high performance reset, yeah so it's it's.
Ruth Limkin (41:42):
So it's a session with a psychologist that often
is focused on what are themental blocks that you need to
remove?
Or you know how can you elevateyour mindset about different
things, and then you'll seeclinical nutritionists talking
about what's.
How are you fueling your body?
What's your body showing?
You know, how could you rethink?
What are some easy hacks sothat you're improving you know
your nutritional well-being.
(42:03):
It's seeing an exercisephysiologist doing some movement
activation working out wellwhat's actually going to work
that's sustainable.
It's that mindfulness coaching,it's that well-being education.
So it's sort of three quartersof a day, yeah, and it's just to
really help people optimizetheir well-being and hopefully
never get to a point of crisis.
Sam Miklos (42:23):
You know, when you talk about hacks like with all
the things we've covered todayis there sort of three hacks
where you're like if everyonejust did these three things, it
would just have that 1%.
Ruth Limkin (42:35):
Yep, yep, I've never actually had that question
put to me, but even as you'reasking, I was like I know the
three, oh, that's so good.
So one paying attention to oursleep, making sure we're getting
good night's sleep absolutelythe foundation of wellbeing,
social connection, so meaningfulrelationships and spending time
(42:57):
in nature.
Sam Miklos (42:58):
Yeah.
Ruth Limkin (42:59):
They're all free, yeah, yeah.
Sam Miklos (43:02):
I remember you saying when, um, when I did the
day with you and you're like, ifyou just walk out and put your
feet, just put your feet in thegrass yeah, and I think one of
my things put my feet in thegrass and walk the dog around
the block.
It's just that simple that youdon't you kind of underestimate
having to be out and do a bighike or be in nature, exactly,
and I think we know these thingsfor our children too, and we do
them for our children, becausewe know, you know my daughter, I
(43:23):
picked her up from schoolyesterday and I had to wait for
my sons.
Kate Coomber (43:26):
I was like, right, get out and do some cartwheels,
because I know she will bebetter when we have to do that
drive home.
But we don't do them forourselves.
Ruth Limkin (43:35):
as adults we don't think about it and you know,
sometimes I think two women willoften put themselves last.
Yes, but helping peopleunderstand.
Sometimes the most responsiblething you can do for all of the
people who rely on you is learnhow to rest well.
Because when we rest well, wecan then perform well.
Sam Miklos (43:55):
How many hours of sleep a night should we be
getting?
Ruth Limkin (43:59):
So all the research says between seven and nine
hours.
So I have my.
Sam Miklos (44:04):
I use a sleep app, I set a target of seven and a
half hours and it's veryencouraging when your phone
gives you a little well done,you've hit your sleep goal this
many times in the last fortnight, and isn't someone used to say
I don't know if it was my motherlike an hour before midnight is
worth two after, is that?
Ruth Limkin (44:22):
like an old wives' tale.
Was that her way of getting me?
Sam Miklos (44:24):
into bed earlier.
Ruth Limkin (44:25):
There is actually a lot of research that shows
making sure you get to bed wellbefore midnight the quality is
better.
But there's a couple of likereally quick things you can do
to start improving your sleep.
So one stop caffeine six hoursbefore bed, because even if you
feel like it's not affecting you, the research shows you're
losing it objectively one hourof quality sleep a night because
(44:50):
the caffeine is interrupting.
Also, alcohol, which peopleoften use to wind down, disrupts
our REM sleep.
So not actually using alcoholas a sleep aid.
They're like just two reallysimple things that people can do
.
And then, not being on yourphone half an hour before bed,
maybe picking up a book.
There's some really simplethings we can do to start
(45:10):
improve, even if not, theduration yeah, the quality.
Sam Miklos (45:13):
Quality because isn't the alcohol before bed too
?
Is that with the 3am you getthe wake up because you're
pancreas, your liver, trying toprocess, and then your body is
just ready to go?
Kate Coomber (45:23):
Yeah, and is there science in waking up at a
similar time every day, on thesame token, like if sleep is so
valuable is it?
Ruth Limkin (45:33):
you know, routine helps yeah, our bodies respond
well to routine, both goodroutines and bad routines our
bodies get used to, so I thinkit just makes it easier for us.
You start sending signals toyour body that this is the time
we start winding down yeah thisis the plan.
Kate Coomber (45:50):
Yeah, so, cmr, make a donation to a charity of
every guest's choice, and we'dlove to talk about a charity of
your choice today.
Ruth Limkin (46:01):
I love Sober in the Country, so it's working with
particularly rural and regionalAustralians and encouraging
people that alcohol doesn't haveto be a part of your life.
And they're a small, amazingAustralian charity that are
punching way above their weight.
Our female founder just lovedthem, so I'd love a donation to
(46:22):
them.
That's fantastic.
I love hearing about charitieslike that.
Sam Miklos (46:26):
We've never heard about them, and just to shine a
light on that charity'spotential Sober in the country.
I love that.
Thank you, ruth.
Kate Coomber (46:34):
Oh pleasure.
Sam Miklos (46:35):
There's so many things we could get to you, and
just more, more, more, more.
Ruth Limkin (46:39):
I know we could talk for hours.
I know we could talk for hours.
I know we say that all the time.
Sam Miklos (46:42):
But I know with you, we were so excited to talk to
you and I think there's somereally good, just simple
strategies that even for us tobe able to give back to our
healthcare community or justlike raise awareness, even just
thinking about those sixdimensions in itself, Like you
know, sometimes we think aboutone or two, but not all six,
Hearing other people having thesame challenges.
I think is useful.
(47:03):
It's an incredible conversation.
We're so grateful, thank you.
Ruth Limkin (47:08):
Thanks for facilitating it.
Kate Coomber (47:15):
We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the
land of which we meet who, forcenturies, have shared ancient
methods of healing and cared fortheir communities.
We pay our respects to elders,past and present.
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