October 21, 2024 • 64 mins
This Hallowe'en, we are comparing The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975) and Phantom of the Paradise (1974) - two cult classic sci-fi horror parody rock musicals of the 1970s.
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The Movies:
The Rocky Horror Picture Show (1975)
Directed by Jim Sharman
Written by Richard O’Brien & Jim Sharman
iMDb Rating: 7.4
Phantom of the Paradise (1974)
Directed by Brian De Palma
Written by Brian De Palma & Louisa Rose
iMDB Rating: 7.3
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Content Warning:
Mentions of death, violence, murder, non-consensual sex, drug use, abuse
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi everyone, I'm Lisa.
(00:07):
And I'm Nik.
And you're listening to It Takes Two, the podcast where two people take two movies with
the same plot or premise and watch and discuss them.
(00:29):
Following continues.
This time it is a musical episode.
I was going to say 2024.
1974's The Phantom of Paradise and 1975's Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Phantom of the Paradise.
What did I say?
The Phantom of Paradise.
(00:50):
Fair enough.
Yeah, whereas the Paradise is the name of the actual theatre.
Rather than the opera.
Yes, yes, rather than the opera.
Had you seen Phantom of the Paradise before?
No, I hadn't.
Was it as weird for you as it was for me?
(01:12):
I don't know.
It is a very weird movie.
It is a weird movie.
I mean, I would say that Rocky Horror Picture Show is also a very weird movie.
Yes, it's just a famously movie that's also very weird.
Yeah, but that's only my second time ever seeing it.
What?
Yeah, we watched it together, I think shortly after we moved in together.
(01:34):
Hang on.
Rewind.
End podcast.
Rocky Horror Picture Show is one of the greatest out there cult classics of all time.
I wish I lived in a place where there were more viewings of it, because I think Embassy
(01:58):
have done it a couple of times.
I'd say that Roxy would be the place to go.
Yeah.
Everyone welly-toned.
I think they heavily pre-sold and you're in a weird group.
No, you can get them, because they do screenings of the room at the Roxy as well, and I've
seen them go up.
I just haven't been inclined to book them here.
(02:21):
Whereas when I was younger and I was back in Dublin, I went to several screenings of
the room.
Yeah.
It's shocking.
Actually, it's not shocking to me that you've seen the room more than you've seen the Rocky
Horror Picture Show.
No.
I will say, I don't know where you need to go to see more of the Rocky Horror Picture
Show, but I can tell you exactly where you need to go if you want to see The Phantom
(02:42):
of the Paradise in the cinema more often.
Or more often, you haven't seen it in the cinema once.
I believe in Manitoba.
I'll double check.
Manitoba?
Yeah.
Winnipeg.
Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Was that where it was filmed?
Nope.
They just loved it.
They just loved it so much, they bring it back every year.
Yeah.
They literally made it for its anniversary or something.
(03:07):
It must have been the 50 year anniversary.
Is that right?
50?
Yeah.
What are we talking about?
That would be this year, is it?
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't remember which band it was, but there was one of the anniversaries for it that they
literally created some specific convention or festival just to celebrate the Phantom
(03:29):
of the Paradise in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
I don't know why.
Yeah, so they played it continuously.
So when it released in Winnipeg, they played it continuously in the local cinemas there
for like a year and a half.
(03:51):
What?
I don't know.
They were like, we fucking love this movie.
And it remains huge in that one area.
I don't know why.
I didn't find a reason why.
Oh yeah, it was.
Oh, sorry.
Excuse me.
(04:13):
It is for the 50th anniversary and it hasn't happened yet.
So there is going to be a 50th anniversary celebration on the 2nd of November.
So anyone who's in Winnipeg, Manitoba or living nearby somewhere else in Manitoba, perhaps,
or like Ontario or Saskatchewan or somewhere near the border.
(04:36):
I don't know why I can't think of the northern states of the US.
I can think of the bordering states in Canada.
I think that's right.
Ontario on one side and Saskatchewan on the other.
Probably Minnesota, maybe Wisconsin.
Are those states that border it to the south?
Anyway, if you live in that area and you love Phantom of the Paradise, or you heard about
(05:00):
it through this podcast and you decide you love it after this podcast.
Yeah, apparently Paul Williams is going to be there.
Some of the other actors, some musicians, they're going to do a Q&A.
There's a Facebook.
This is great because this came from, this is literally, I assume some fucking fan in
Winnipeg, Manitoba put this in as an INDB trivia fact.
(05:23):
And it's literally, I'll read it out word for word.
There will be a huge 50th anniversary celebration of Phantom of the Paradise in Winnipeg, Manitoba,
Canada on Saturday, November 2nd, 2024.
Celebration includes screening of movie.
Paul Williams and perhaps some other actors slash musicians will be present for Q&A.
Look for Facebook group for more info.
Winnipeg loves Phantom.
They just put an ad in there.
(05:44):
They just straight up put an ad in the INDB trivia.
But you know, I mean, it's living up to it.
Apparently Winnipeg loves Phantom of the Paradise.
So if you want to be watching Phantom of the Paradise, it's an event where you gotta go.
All right.
(06:05):
Other than the horror, the music, and the error and the craziness, there's not really
much that links these movies.
Yeah, I mean, plot wise, they're not the same, obviously.
No.
But they both are, they both came out around the same time.
They both are parodying horror and sci-fi.
(06:30):
I think I feel like Phantom of the Paradise is more like parodying specific horror things.
Well, yeah, yeah.
No, but there's like they do Peter Doinger Gray, they do Phantom of the Opera, they do,
you know, oh, I'm blanking now, but there's like Faust, of course.
Yeah, they have like a few that they just like pluck and do, you know, do a little parody
(06:55):
of.
They also both obviously are playing into, you know, the rise of rock music and musicians
becoming big in Hollywood and things like that.
And it's interesting.
It's also weird, because we like to talk when we do twins, these are twin films.
(07:18):
We like to talk when we do twin films about like, how they came out, whether someone copied
someone else, you know, whatever.
And I'd like to work backwards on a timeline for this.
So Rocky Horror Picture Show, the movie came out on the 14th of August, 1975.
Phantom of the Paradise came out 31st of October, 1974.
You're like, oh, Phantom of the Paradise came out first.
(07:41):
Rocky Horror Picture Show was actually a stage show before that from 1973.
So the other way around.
But actually, Phantom of the Paradise was in fucking production hell because it was
supposed to be released in summer of 1972.
And they had to change a bunch of things in post-production, a lot of which, from what
(08:03):
I gather, was because they in their parodying of the horrors of the music industry, they
basically used the actual logo of a studio that was notorious for treating their musicians
badly.
Wow.
(08:24):
Swan Song Studios, guys, who sued them.
And that's why like, even though the guy's name is Swan and every now and then there's
like a logo of a swan for the rest of it, it's like a dead bird and it's like death
records or whatever, is because they had to go through and edit out every single time
(08:45):
the original logo they had in there.
I think they literally put it in as Swan Song Studios.
Oh yeah, so their original was Swan Song Records and I think the actual one is Swan Song Studios.
I think they represented Pink Floyd and stuff.
That's crazy.
(09:06):
But yeah, they did not like it.
So there was a lot of production hell while they were...
Because I think they played it for them.
I think they were getting ahead of themselves to be like, hey, is this going to be a problem?
And yes, it was.
But I just thought it was funny that it seems like...
(09:29):
I don't think either of them were copying each other.
I think they're just two people had a similar idea at the same time, because this was a
thing to parody.
But it's just funny that they kind of leapfrog over each other timeline wise.
It's interesting to me because talking of the not copying each other, there is this
very...
(09:51):
There are some themes and obviously because these are both made in the 70s, there's obviously
some themes that sort of cross over.
I think we're very modern these days.
Everything is very modern.
We're very modern these days.
Yeah, well, I'm just saying like none of what happens in Rocky Horror Picture Show is actually
(10:18):
that shocking in this day and age.
This concept of this straight white couple going to a friend's wedding and then being
like, oh my God, they're so lucky.
Let's get married as well because we're so in love and then experience some sort of sexual
(10:40):
awakening by the hands of a alien.
Spoilers.
And coming out of their shell and it was a very 70s experience of just straight white
kids experiencing something and being like, holy shit, this is the best thing ever.
(11:03):
Let's just go crazy on it.
Phantom of the Paradise, other than the fact that it's taking a lot away from those main
sources, it is very much like you said, this turn of pop culture from the main...
(11:26):
They're sort of like the Beach Boys, the Juicy Fruits that are the main breadwinner of Swamp
Death.
Yeah, they remind me of Frankie Valli a little bit.
It's very 60s.
It's not even 60s.
50s, very 50s.
It's 60s but training to be the 50s to really get in that nostalgia era of we're trying
(11:50):
to continue on and then this fantastic music composer who ends up becoming the villain
slash victim of his own success.
It's very strange.
I mean, that is very Phantom of the Opera as well to an extent.
(12:12):
Is sort of trying to push people to do something a little bit more experimental, a little bit
out there, a little bit more cerebral and a new, more aggressive, beautiful dystopian
sort of ideal of rebellion and stuff and none of this nostalgia shit.
Of course, Swann being this heartless piece of shit record producer is like, cool, I'm
(12:38):
going to fuck this guy, steal his work and basically try and get him ruined so I can
just take his entire IP and just do what I want with it.
Also a bit of Harvey Weinstein in him, I think.
Those scenes where he's auditioning girls and it's just an orgy.
Horrifying.
(12:58):
And also very 70s.
I mean, it's interesting because knowing that this was supposed to be released in 72 means
that it would have been filmed in like, 71 probably.
Yeah, so like right off the edge of the 60s.
Yeah, so it's definitely just transitioning out of the 60s, whereas Rocky Horror is a
bit more into the 70s.
(13:23):
It's interesting because I think the main difference, the main takeaway from both of
these movies and the real juxtaposition, the real polarizing points is the unknown in The
(13:46):
Phantom is not sexy, where Tim Curry is incredibly sexy.
And that's I think the most polarizing part about it because it's interesting, just the
(14:08):
relationship he has with everybody other than his so-called staff, his housekeepers who
aren't, it's all a very learning to play an instrument and being a master of it and then
moving on to something else like instantly having like genius level but ADHD.
(14:30):
And that is one of those, the Frankenfurters biggest downfalls, he literally comes along,
has sex with whoever he wants to and then is just like, oh cool, shiny new thing.
And then like runs away and that's like what's disturbed his like, his crew, I guess, being
all aliens.
So The Phantom is like very much the opposite, he's like keeps the portrait of...
(15:00):
Featured to me, right?
Yeah, it's this like, he's becoming more and more of a monster and there's this weird like
satanic contract that's also built into the story.
Yeah.
Which I feel was very pointed at music industry preferential at the time.
It was just, everything about it was just bizarre from the beginning to the end.
(15:26):
And it's just like fantastically bizarre, like very enjoyably bizarre, but like not
a movie you'd be like inviting your normal, normal I say normal, but I'm saying like you're
not your weird film people I've got to watch.
Yeah.
Like that is not like a movie you would show to a general audience and be like, hey guys,
what do you think of 2024?
And be like, what the fuck is that?
(15:48):
I'm not the right person to talk about this because I still think everyone needs to watch
Sorry to Bother You.
I will agree that it is a movie, a film that everyone must enjoy.
But I don't think normal people as you would describe them would want to watch Sorry to
Bother You.
Someone at work brought that up by the way the other day, someone was like, oh, this
(16:11):
reminds me of this really cool movie, Sorry to Bother You.
I was like, oh, don't even get me started.
What a great movie.
Yeah, I think you're probably right there.
But I mean, it is, I think both are cult classics.
I think that Rocky Horror Picture Show has obviously become a whole other monster.
I think there's a simple reason which I'll get to when you finish that thought.
(16:36):
Just tell me.
It's the music.
I did think that.
Like I said, I...
Everybody knows Time Warp.
Even kids who have never seen that movie would know the Time Warp song.
Yeah, because I did.
I knew Time Warp before I'd ever seen Rocky Horror.
(16:59):
I don't think that the music in Phantom of the Paradise is bad.
I think it just didn't take off in a certain way.
And it's interesting to me because of who made the music for Phantom of the Paradise,
which is Paul Williams, who also played the Swann, the record executive.
And do you know him?
No.
Okay.
(17:20):
Well, I mean, I can tell you the names of some other songs that he's written, probably
the most famous of which is called Rainbow Connection, which is Kermit the Frog's big
song.
The song's big frog from the 1979 Muppet movie.
So Paul Williams has done a whole load of Muppet songs over the years, and those are
(17:45):
memorable.
They really stick with you.
So I think that he can clearly write songs that would last.
Like Rainbow Connection literally, like I said, was from a 1979 movie, and it's still
really well known around the world today.
And I guess Phantom of the Paradise just didn't get that.
(18:08):
And I'm trying to analyze it as we were watching it and trying to figure out, you know, are
these songs catchy enough that I would listen to them after?
But I don't, like by now, it's a couple of days since we watched them.
I don't remember them.
Whereas I remember a surprising amount of the Rocky Park Horror songs.
Like I said, I'd only seen the movie once before.
(18:29):
And then when it came on, I knew like half the words to Science Fiction Double VJR.
I was like, what's in the movie now?
Maybe a song.
Yeah, I think there's just something about the Rocky Horror songs that really do actually
stick with you.
(18:49):
And they're also just in popular culture more.
And you know, and musicals stay alive by people knowing the music.
It's sort of, I think that's probably why Cats was, I know you hate cats, but like not
(19:10):
the animals, the stage play.
It's because it doesn't have a plot.
It's just...
Neither do cats.
Okay, it does have a plot, but the plot is a bunch of cats are trying to sing their way
into heaven.
Yeah.
And that plot's also not even explained in the play.
(19:30):
You just got to know that externally, I guess.
It's stupid.
But yeah, I think it's because of the music.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like, I've never seen Phantom of the Opera in like actual on stage.
I know the music from it.
Well, like if you played one of the songs, I'd be like, oh, that's Phantom of the Opera.
(19:51):
Can I tell you some trivia?
About what?
Can I just tell you some trivia?
That's literally half your job.
The other half of your job is producing it and I'm not talking to myself.
And I love you.
I'm trying to find it here.
So this is third hand information.
So I say take this with a grain of salt, right?
(20:14):
Because it was one of the actors in Phantom of the Paradise told this to another actor
and that actor said, hey, I was told this.
And the director screened Phantom of the Paradise for Andrew Lloyd Webber and suggested because
(20:34):
they had collaborated before on the original London production of Jesus Christ Superstar,
proposed that they adapt Phantom of the Paradise for a stage.
And Andrew Lloyd Webber decided not to do it.
And then shortly afterwards, decided to adapt Phantom of the Opera to a musical.
(20:58):
And I love the idea that without Phantom of the Paradise, we might not have Andrew Lloyd
Webber's Phantom of the Opera.
Because obviously before that, you know, it was a silent film and it was, you know, I
think it was a play or things like that.
But it wasn't the musical didn't exist.
So it's funny that you're like, I know all the songs from Phantom of the Opera.
(21:20):
You know, some of them, you know, there's a few that if you heard them, you'd be like,
oh, I know exactly what that's wrong.
So I just think it's funny that that could have been Phantom of the Paradise.
It's really weird.
(21:40):
And kind of a good way.
But in like a what the fuck is happening on screen kind of way.
Yeah.
It's really worth watching.
I don't say that a lot about the movie that I would deem worse in the toad.
Yeah.
Because it's not worse.
(22:00):
It's just different in a way where it's sort of like eating something from a culture you
don't know very well.
And being like, I'm going to expose myself to something to grow internally.
And I might hate it.
Yeah.
Or I might be like, hey, have you been to this place?
(22:22):
It's really cool.
You know, like that guy.
There are some scenes in it.
The eye chronography of the movie, the weirdness.
It all sort of works together, but it is sort of like, you know, watching a train crash is
(22:42):
a wrong analogy.
It's like watching a blender in reverse.
Can I say something else that I think made, weirdly made Rocky Horror more successful?
I think Phantom of the Paradise had costume designers who knew what they were doing.
(23:03):
And I think Rocky Horror Picture Show had a costume designer who herself has admitted
she had never watched any sci-fi and didn't bother to look at sci-fi for reference for
what people would wear in a sci-fi and just created some fucking weird ass costumes.
And the weird dichotomy of the costumes in that movie work somehow in a way that they
(23:26):
haven't aged because they're not from an actual era.
Even though sci-fi is often a futuristic or whatever, alternate something, Phantom of
the Paradise was very much like costume of the era.
And then his mask and things like that, very Phantom of the Opera.
(23:48):
Whereas Rocky Horror just like, the costuming is timeless because it literally isn't from
any time.
It's just insane costuming.
It really is and that's the Phantom's outfit.
Obviously spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.
(24:09):
How he ends up like that, it's Phantom of the Opera.
There's a little bit of Frankenstein in there I think as well.
So he goes to prison.
And Warden is obsessed with ripping people's teeth out so he gets metal teeth.
Then he escapes from prison.
(24:32):
His half his face melted by a vinyl press.
That's not even how vinyl presses work.
Falls onto a river and then comes back and steals costuming, very Phantom of the Opera.
It depicts science fiction heavy metal bird demon.
(24:55):
Yeah, it's almost like Plague Doctor but a weird sci-fi version of it.
And then on top of that he goes full Darth Vader with the fact that he needs a voice
box.
And the weird contract and blood thing and the fact that he's just being constantly fled
(25:16):
drugs and kept locked in a room.
Yeah, I mean that's clearly taken directly from Elvis Presley and other musicians.
But he's also now superhuman.
It's all very weird but in a good way.
(25:37):
Here's the thing about it.
It's making commentary that is still relevant.
Sadly, there are people in that industry and like I mentioned the film industry who do
abuse their artists like that.
And it's clearly taking some very direct references there.
(26:01):
I thought they almost were hammering it in too much when he was giving them the cocktail
of drugs to take.
It's like okay, this is literally like I've heard about this for...
Michael Jackson was another one but obviously long after this happened.
(26:22):
It's weird to see it just spelled out as people were clearly very aware that it was happening
in the early 70s and that it's to some extent, maybe not to the same extent, but it's to
some extent still happening today.
The other character, it's like Swann is this guy who can't be photographed.
(26:47):
It's like in the agreement with the media so no one knows who he looks like and that's
like his whole like shtick.
Obviously I mentioned the Juicy Fruits earlier which are like these very like, I don't even
know what the term is from that era, but it's like harmless, like your grandmother would
listen to it kind of era.
(27:08):
Again, look at that, Frankie Bailey.
Non-threatening, yeah.
Happy days without the phones.
And then he's like changing and there's like this whole concept of like the weird sex audition
and then the girl who wins a lot who becomes the phantom, his obsession with her and he's
(27:31):
like rewriting the entire thing and then Swann's taking that creativeness and is moving it
to this new entity he's created who's a rock god, like that real, not quite hair metal
era, like the power metal era, but sort of like the real like make the girls scream,
(27:54):
make the parents not want them to listen to it, you know, that Satan music, like that
sort of era of like electric guitar and lighting and stage presence, that sort of era.
It kind of reminded me a little bit of like Peggy Sue got married, like they're so harmless,
(28:17):
they're like, you know, archipelago sort of, not archipelago, that's a bunch of violence.
What's the term, please?
Thank you.
I'm broken Lisa.
I'm broken Lisa.
Acapella.
Acapella.
Acapella, it's two words, acapella.
Archipelago.
Yeah, some Gallipolis there.
(28:38):
Gallipolis.
What's wrong with it?
Gallopetis.
Are you okay?
It was my train of thought, hang on, I'm derailing the train.
And yeah, the beef character who's taken the music and is like going to be reforming it,
(29:02):
and of course it's very, you know, he's the main, the lead after the Phantom's been taken
off but the Phantom's not the lead who was then mangled, it's the other way around.
And how he dies is hilarious to me.
And the fact that it's just like, oh, the show goes on.
(29:22):
They, by the way.
Really elitricuted then going?
No.
The guy from Swan Records or whatever the real studio's name was that they showed the
movie to get the sign off on them using the Swan logo, who then didn't let them use the
Swan logo, broke down in tears at that part because he had managed a band where the front
(29:48):
man had actually been electrocuted to death on stage.
Oh wow.
And then they were like, we're not going to take that part out.
Which is really shitty actually.
But yeah, so he, yeah.
So that was lifted from real life, unfortunately.
But I don't think in the real instance he was, it was a guy backstage doing it on purpose.
(30:13):
With a giant neon lightning bolt.
No.
Do you think beef was like the equivalent of Rocky?
Um.
I mean, obviously not like, exactly, but he's not like manmade and he's not, you know.
Well, you say he's not manmade, but that's like the whole stick.
(30:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he is.
Like his.
It's like he's like the puppet.
Yeah.
So it's this concept of Juicy Fruit to like push to the side and then his reveal is like
out of a coffin.
But like, on the runway of an airport?
(30:55):
Next to private planes, which I guess is just like, how do we add money into the filming?
Yeah.
Like how does it look real and expensive?
I think, yeah, it was very much that like he's definitely like the guy that, first of
all, he's kind of like the favorite.
(31:16):
So it's, you know, Rocky versus Eddie.
But he's also like the guy that Swan is going to mold into what he wants him to be and who
isn't going to like fight back about it and will just do what he's told.
And, you know, from those kinds of points of views, I felt like he was an equivalent
to Rocky.
I mean, they were similar character type, even though they're obviously not quite, you
(31:40):
know, he wasn't just born.
There's, I think one of the differences that Talking of Beef and The Phantom, there's a
lot of physical comedy that isn't in Rocky Horror Picture Show.
There's, I would say a lot more violence and implied violence in Rocky Horror Picture Show.
(32:06):
You mean like a guy getting his face melted in a vinyl press?
Well I'm saying about the fact, spoilers, for those who don't remember, Meatloaf's brain
was cut in half and half of it was put into Rocky and the other half was, I guess, left
(32:27):
in his body.
Yeah.
I can't remember, Little Hill?
What's her bloody name?
I don't actually think it's her actual name.
I can't remember the actual cast member's name.
For which, who?
Little Neal, Columbia.
Oh right, okay.
She's in love with both of them, but was like originally in love with...
(32:52):
But who's Little Neal?
Columbia.
But where's Little Neal coming from?
That's the actor's name.
Her name is Nell Campbell.
Why is it under Little Nell?
Oh, it's Nell, not Neal.
There's two L's, Nell, yeah you're right.
I was reading it funny.
Where's Little, who called her Little Nell?
(33:15):
Literally right there on the Wikipedia page is Little Nell.
Little Nell, weird.
That was who the credit was for.
Well, on INDB she's Nell Campbell.
Yeah.
Train derailed.
Underailing.
And the fact that Meatloaf comes out, does his big absolutely fantastic rock ballad
(33:42):
piece and that is instantly murdered.
Yeah.
And in front of everybody.
And then it's just like, alright dinner.
And then is fed to them.
It's certainly implied that he is bad to them.
Yes.
So you get murdered in front of a lover and then cannibalism.
(34:08):
There is a lot more that is just sort of played off because the focus isn't on what's happening,
the focus is on who and his happening toes.
Yeah.
But like when Rock, like he's a maid in a, like maid howl.
Rocky's maid howl.
That's another Frankenstein.
There's Frankenstein references in both.
(34:28):
The fact that he just like breaks into every room, like the fact that they have surveillance
in the bedrooms, Frankenverter dresses up like the other two and then just like proceeds
to have sex with them.
The fact that it like breaks her brain and she goes off and has sex with Rocky.
(34:50):
And that whole Susan Sarandon fantastic song piece.
Yeah I think it's just a little bit more like, it's sort of like glamorized, here's the
violence but song and dance in front of it.
You know what I mean?
(35:11):
Given the old razzle dazzle.
Yeah I think with the Phantom of the Paradise it is very much like here's some violence
and here's how it expands the story.
I think.
Like a funnel.
I think the difference is, I'm making this up as we go along.
I think the difference is.
(35:31):
It's 90% of all I do.
In Phantom of the Paradise that is how the audience sees it but we're behind the scenes
seeing things from Winslow's point of view.
Whereas in Rocky Horror Picture Show we're being dazzled.
We're part of, we're with, our point of view is Brad and Janet who have just walked into
(35:55):
this and are like, are in a front to their senses and like they don't know what's going
on.
So you're getting the dazzle effect and then you kind of see what's going, the man behind
the curtain.
Whereas in Phantom of the Paradise the whole way along we are behind the curtain and we're
seeing but you see that like when the audience are still cheering for beef when he's just
(36:18):
been electrocuted to death and they're like putting him out with an extinguisher.
And even like spoiler alert at the end of the movie when several people die.
I don't know if you want me to spoil it that much.
The audience just go back to partying.
They're still in that razzle dazzle.
They're not really caring about really seeing the violence that's going on.
(36:39):
They don't know what's going on behind the curtain.
So I think it's very much a perspective.
I think we've just shifted.
I think like I said we're behind the curtain.
We're behind the scenes in Phantom of the Paradise.
So that dazzling effect is still happening just not to us.
Whereas in Rocky Horror Picture Show we're on the other side of it.
(37:02):
Does that make sense?
Yeah it does.
Which also makes sense I guess because Rocky Horror started as a stage show.
So you are the audience.
You are on that side of it.
Sorry I just hit the styrofoam.
It happens.
(37:22):
I almost tripped and died on it yesterday.
I don't know.
It would be very interesting to watch these movies again without.
It would be very interesting to watch these movies again if I'd never seen either of them.
(37:45):
Does that make a lot of sense?
There is part of pop culture that has come along with Rocky Horror Picture Show.
If you've got a group of people dressed up in weird costumes and they were from Rocky
Horror Picture Show you'd be like I've never seen that movie but I know who they were.
(38:07):
Obviously Phantom of the Opera is also within.
Paradise?
No I'm saying Phantom of the Opera is very much also in the pop culture.
The Simpsons do it and so on and so forth.
Does your measurement did the Simpsons do it?
Pretty much because they did everything to the point where I guess I haven't watched
(38:27):
it in like several years but from what I hear online it is not going well for the writing.
The whole mask thing, the hiding in the rafters, that whole thing is part and parcel.
There's a Disgrilled novel that's that plot.
It's everywhere.
(38:48):
It's very interesting to watch it in this weird blend.
Because you're right about the costume thing.
I had seen the character, the Phantom before.
(39:09):
Things like reaction GIFs, some sort of mean format where this weird bird man with the
metal teeth.
For some reason dark lips.
Did he just decide to go goth when he got the metal teeth?
It must have been the fact that he was burnt.
It's very very very strange.
(39:34):
The image of that movie make fantastic GIFs and this weird, the constantly being viewed
thing which is sort of the most translatable part of both these movies.
There's a lot of surveillance stuff going on.
(39:54):
Obviously I'm too young because I was born in the 80s not the 70s.
I don't know if that was on everybody's mind at the time.
I mean 1984 was a...
That didn't happen yet.
Well no, it was written as a future dystopia of the year 1984.
Or current dystopia if you live in a certain country.
(40:18):
That's both countries in the world actually.
Going back a second, I think it's interesting what you say that you'd love to have watched
the two of them without having seen them before.
Because that is how a lot of people in the 70s saw them.
(40:38):
So when Rocky Horror came out first it didn't do well and then they kind of re-released
it.
I think it's still played in a couple places so technically Rocky Horror picture shows
have never not been in cinemas since it first aired.
But they did a second wide release where they did play them as a double bill.
(41:01):
So a lot of people saw these movies for the first time as a double bill in cinema.
And then if you want to know the real success of Rocky Horror picture show it was that the
distributors realized that it would do well at midnight screenings which were becoming
more popular.
And because they got it into midnight screenings it never came out of cinema.
(41:26):
Because it got so popular in the midnight screenings.
But if you look at the original wide release box office numbers it's minuscule.
Both movies were flops.
But then some clever distribution got Rocky Horror into the audiences that needed to see
(41:49):
it and those are the audiences that kept it alive.
And for Fanta of the Paradise that's Winnipeg, Manitoba, exclusively.
For some reason I just think of oh my god now I can't remember his name.
The guy who's in Baywatch and Knight Rider.
And Hasselhoff.
(42:11):
David Hasselhoff and his singing career in Germany.
Right.
It's interesting how things have become very popular in a particular place.
There's quite a few of those weird ones where people are just like a certain demographic
just completely get obsessed with one individual artist and they're like no one else.
(42:32):
They're like what that guy still makes music?
It's like yeah he's like number two in this country and you're like what?
I mean that's what the song Big in Japan is about.
Yeah.
You know.
Because there's artists that weren't making it back home in their English speaking countries
but were Big in Japan.
It's really weird.
(42:55):
I would say I enjoy both of these movies which you know for those who have been long term
listeners doesn't always happen.
There's not much more I can think of to say honestly.
Okay.
I'm assuming because we've done it backwards there's no more trivia.
There is so much trivia for both of these movies that it was hard to even pare it down.
(43:19):
Because they're both cult classics and they've been around since the 70s and people actually
care enough about them to research and put in trivia.
You know as opposed to some movies we watch where there's none or there's one sentence
and then I'm trying to look up somewhere else and still find nothing.
We've talked over a bunch of it though.
(43:42):
In an interview with the New York Times both members of Daft Punk cite Phantom of the Paradise
as their favorite film of all time and the foundation for a lot of what they're about
artistically.
So if you're fans of Daft Punk this is Phantom of the Paradise where they got their inspiration.
French Bane.
Yeah a little underground.
(44:04):
They claim to have seen it over 20 times each and they got Paul Williams to appear on their
album Random Access Memories because they love Phantom of the Paradise so much.
The single edit time bomb in the car trunk sequence which is, can I talk about that for
(44:26):
a second?
Absolutely fantastic bit of cinematography.
I mentioned that while we were watching it even and it's an homage to the opening of
Touch of Evil which was a very famous Orson Welles single shot opening of a film.
It's very well done that we're seeing backstage and in front of the stage split screen the
(44:47):
whole time and then people will cross from one into the other.
The camera's following people and do that but you never see the cameras and it was clearly
all done in one take.
So incredible piece of cinematography and also choreographed actors and camera work
(45:07):
for that.
Because that was something I hadn't seen before.
I think the movie that pops to mind is Birdman.
Yeah Birdman does great cinematography.
These must be joined together.
There's no way this is filmed simultaneously.
I think in Birdman there are some clever edits.
(45:29):
There are very well done.
Birdman was definitely a movie that I saw that in cinema and when I came out of it I
thought that better win an Oscar for cinematography.
It's not often that you watch a movie and think about the cinematography in it.
Maybe me a little bit more than other people having studied film and stuff.
(45:54):
Even then most of the time I'm not thinking about cinematography watching a movie.
So I do like it when there's something that really grabs you like that.
A lot of these...
Oh I didn't even realise.
Remember I said that an actor who was in a movie with another actor said the thing about
(46:18):
Lloyd Webber?
It was Nell Campbell.
The other movie was Shock Treatment.
Ah yes.
Do not watch Shock Treatment folks.
They're all connected.
I think I've said all the rest of the trivia for this one except that Phantom of the Paradise
is also Nicholas Cage's favourite Brian De Palma film.
(46:40):
We've seen Snake Eyes which is a Brian De Palma film starring Nicholas Cage.
I think Phantom of the Paradise was the reason that he wanted to work with Brian De Palma
because he loved this movie so much.
I can picture Nick Cage.
If they did a remake of Phantom of the Paradise and cast Nick Cage as Winslow...
(47:00):
They would make my Christmas.
That would be perfect.
There's not a more perfect actor to reprise that role.
Rocky Horror Picture Show.
I feel weird talking about Rocky Horror Picture Show because it does have such a cult following.
(47:22):
Like I said, this is the second time I've seen this film.
I don't think there's anything I can say here that people who love the film don't already
know.
I'll go with what I have here.
The film opened...
Oh this is all about the re-releasing.
I kind of talked about this.
(47:44):
It was opened in August 1975 in London and then it opened in September in the United
States.
It did well in one location in Los Angeles and then nowhere else.
It was actually withdrawn from all eight opening cities because they were getting too small
(48:12):
audiences so it actually pulled from cinema sooner than they planned to.
It was supposed to have a New York City opening on Halloween night which was cancelled.
But then around the same time they re-released it on college campuses and around college
campuses as a double bill with Phantom of the Paradise.
(48:35):
But it still drew small audiences and it wasn't until they did the midnight screenings that
it really kicked off.
The first midnight showing was on April Fool's Day 1976 in New York City.
This is, believe it or not, the theatrical movie debut of one Tim Curry who had never
(48:56):
been in a film before this.
What?
Did you not know that?
No I did not know that.
So Tim Curry...
Basically Richard O'Brien had to fight to get Tim Curry cast because they wanted to
replace him with big name actors.
They ended up taking a lower budget for the film because the only way they were going
(49:19):
to get the higher budget was to not cast Tim Curry because he was an unknown.
But Tim Curry played the role on the West End.
So he originated the role on stage and he played it and went to Broadway.
And they were like, this is the guy.
We've got to have him in it.
(49:40):
Yeah, he played him from 1973 to 1975.
So Tim Curry I think was well known in acting circles as a theatrical actor.
He was doing theatre work.
But he had never done film before.
(50:04):
So I just thought that was fascinating that that's his first film.
I mean Tim Curry is like absolute icon.
So Tim Curry, Richard O'Brien, Patricia Quinn and Nell Campbell all reprised the same
roles that they played in the original stage production.
But only Tim Curry and Richard O'Brien also did it on Broadway.
(50:28):
So it was the director, Jim Sharman, who turned down an offer from 20th Century Fox for a
larger budget and a longer shooting schedule if he would cast the options where Mick Jagger,
David Bowie, Lou Reed or Cher.
And he was like, no, the people who actually developed this deserve to be in the movie.
(50:57):
And that they should be the ones who get to play the roles in film.
So he wanted to keep as many of the original cast members as possible.
So they took a smaller budget and a shorter filming time.
But also it's probably part of why it became so successful as well in that so many of the
(51:22):
actors had done those roles so many times.
Like they were embodying them already because otherwise they would have had very little
time to actually rehearse before filming.
So these were actors who understood the style of it.
They understood the music.
They understood, you know, and they were able to do it.
No problem.
What else is there?
(51:46):
So the one thing that I thought was funny, you know, when Dr. Scott, like they put the
magnet on and his wheelchair light comes through and then smash it through the wall.
The set designers had just forgotten to put a door in the lab set.
There was supposed to be a door there.
Oh, right.
(52:06):
So that's why they just burst through the wall.
So then they just decided to just, yeah, so the set was supposed to have a door for him
to come through.
But then they decided to just, when they realized they hadn't built it, they decided to just
shove them through the wall.
So it's very funny because I think that turned out pretty well.
There's so many bits of trivia about this.
Oh, yeah.
(52:28):
So apparently, so they filmed it in a castle in England and apparently there was a leak.
So it was always wet and it was always cold and they had one warm room that they just
filled with space heaters so the cast members could take turns going in and getting heated
up and then the room caught fire.
(52:51):
One room with heaters and a car fire.
When Frank Conferter is creating Rocky Horror and he's turning all the colored things, he
has to do them in a particular order, but they didn't tell him the order.
So they were just shouting colors at him off stage, which is why every now and then Tim
Carrey just looked really confused looking for one because they'd just be going, red!
(53:15):
And he had to find it.
Which I also thought was funny.
This is mostly just things I thought was funny.
Apparently Richard O'Brien says, so you know the way there's the weird old clock that has
a skeleton inside it?
No, but okay.
(53:36):
You didn't notice that?
There's a clock in Frank Conferter's castle that has just a skeleton in it.
You don't think it's a real skeleton?
Yeah.
So the skeleton belonged to the woman who commissioned the clock.
That's dark.
Yeah, and then apparently in 2002 they auctioned off the coffin clock and it sold for £35,000.
(54:01):
You'd think it would be more than that for a woman's real skeleton.
Illegal in New Zealand.
I just found out something horrible.
Oh yeah?
It was a 2016 TV movie.
Of Rocky Horror?
Yeah.
Okay, so I haven't, like I said, I've only seen the movie twice, but I had seen an amateur
(54:25):
community theatre stage production of it years ago first.
I think it's actually a lot of fun in having people just like try to do these roles.
This class list is insane though.
Oh is it?
Like well known people?
Who played Frank Conferter?
LeBrun Cox.
(54:51):
Oh wow, okay.
Adam Lambert plays Eddie.
Okay I can see that.
Maybe we should watch this.
Is this going to be, we're going to have to do this again as a remake episode?
I guess so.
I guess, yeah, well I'll stop talking about it, but yeah.
(55:12):
Interesting, interesting.
So the person who made it, directed by, was the guy who did the High School Musicals trilogy.
Kenny Ortega.
So I think this is going to, we're going to be talking this movie, but one of these movies
(55:36):
again because...
That's interesting.
Okay.
Yeah, Tim Curry is in it.
Oh nice.
So that's why I was like going through his list, I was like wait a second, where the
hell, because what I was doing, I was going through his live action stuff while we were
talking.
Yeah.
And I was like where the hell is it?
(55:56):
I forgot it was in a TV thing.
And I was like hang on a second, he was in lots of television and it was like going through
and I was like hang on a second, what the fuck is this?
Rocky Horror, that's great.
Tim, I genuinely really love Tim Curry and I don't know if we've talked about that much.
One of the bits of trivia that I obviously didn't take down, but I remember reading it,
was that he was so, he was not treated well by fans after this movie.
(56:24):
Like I think overly sexualized and people like following him around and stuff like that.
So he said he deliberately got chubby and plain after the movie because he just couldn't
put up with the way people were treating him.
Which is sad that he felt like he needed to do that.
And it's sad that people treated him like that.
(56:44):
But I guess they were treating him like he was a rock star.
You know, going back to our fans in Paradise, the way people were treated.
There would have been a way in a group of people following him around after he was in
the head.
No, I'm talking about Rocky Horror fans.
Yeah.
The other bits of trivia I had here were, so the director said that while him and Richard
(57:07):
O'Brien were working on the screenplay together, what they were going for was a darker version
of The Wizard of Oz.
Yeah, I get that.
So they did actually speed up the vocals during time warp to make them sound more munchkin
like as well.
So you get the...
Yeah, it is very, oh my god it is.
Oh no, are we going to have to do it again?
No, I don't know.
(57:27):
And then the other thing I had on here was that they didn't tell any of the actors or
actresses except for Tim Curry, Richard O'Brien and Meatloaf about having the prop course
of Eddie under the dining table.
(57:48):
They didn't tell them they were going to do that.
So I mean, Meatloaf had to know about it because he modeled for it.
But then Tim Curry and Richard O'Brien obviously were supposed to not really react to it, to
them that's normal or whatever.
But no one else was expecting them to just reveal the corpse underneath and be like,
(58:10):
ha ha ha.
Tim Curry is great.
Can I just say that?
I think I already did.
Why are you so good though?
I'm trying to think, have we done other Tim Curry movies?
Was it just Ferngully?
I was going to say, did we do or did we just watch Home Alone 2?
Yeah, no, we didn't do.
(58:30):
We did Home Alone 1 on the podcast with planes, trains and automobiles, but we haven't done
Home Alone 2.
I do love Tim Curry.
What else could we do that he's in?
I'm sure we could compare something to Clue.
We've got SNS to do.
Yeah, but that's a TV show, isn't it?
(58:52):
It's like a TV series.
They're technically a mini series.
Yeah, well we're not doing mini series.
But it is technically a remake.
Yeah, but it's a different adaptation.
It's not a remake of another movie.
So I think if we do it, it'll be very far down the line when we're running out of other
(59:13):
things.
Fair enough.
But I'm sure there's other things we could do, like Wild Thornberrys, the movie.
With what?
Something else where someone talks to animals.
I don't know.
That's a good movie, by the way.
Have you ever watched the Wild Thornberrys movie?
No, I don't remember.
It's very good.
We can get on to that some of the time.
(59:35):
I do want to talk budget and box office.
Do you have any ideas on the budgets and box offices of these?
It's 70s money.
I have no idea.
Okay.
Do you want me to give you one and you guess the other?
Sure.
Okay, so which one would you like the budget of?
I'm assuming Rocky Horror Picture Show costs less.
(59:57):
Okay, so which one do you want me to give you the budget of?
The Phantom of the Paradise.
Okay, Phantom of the Paradise budget was $1.3 million.
So I'm going to go with $900,000 for Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Halfway between, $1.1 million for Rocky Horror.
And then for the initial run, box office, Phantom of the Paradise made $2,245.
(01:00:24):
Jesus!
Yeah.
And Rocky Horror made $21,245.
So I can understand why there were flaws.
You were speaking to a car that exploded in the morning.
Genuinely.
Yeah, really horrible.
Rocky Horror has since made $115 million.
(01:00:47):
Yeah.
And that's not counting DVD Blu-ray sales of which it will have made a shit ton.
But yeah, Phantom of the Paradise.
Because there would have been no insurance and no tax write off bullshit like there is
now with that whole Batwoman movie.
Oh yeah.
And these were clearly passion projects.
(01:01:08):
Yeah.
So I'm glad they have found cold audiences.
But I do think there was some controversy around Rocky Horror that I don't know the
full details of.
But I think Susan Sarandon spoke out about it.
That I think none of the actors saw any royalties from VHS, DVD, Blu-ray sales.
(01:01:30):
Right.
When obviously that's where a lot of the money has come from.
But I mean, I guess that's not something they were writing into a contract in 1975.
Or 74 when they were finished.
Hey, just in case it's new technology, it needs it made.
Yeah, home video was not really a thing.
(01:01:52):
It was also, by the way, I just because I remember reading this, but I didn't put it
down, that the Rocky Horror Preacher Show was filmed, I think it was filmed in six weeks.
And they started filming like one week before Phantom of the Paradise was released.
So they were filming at the time that it was released, which I thought was interesting.
But I don't think they've changed the film version very much from this from the stage
(01:02:16):
play version.
I hope you're having a great October.
You can make ours better by going to our Discord and joining it and talking with us or going
to our website.
It takes two dot co dot enzyme.
Yes.
Signing up to our newsletter.
And if you go to the second of November 50th anniversary screenings of Phantom of the Paradise
(01:02:45):
in Winnipeg, Manitoba, join our Discord and tell us about it.
Share pictures.
I want to know about it.
We obviously can't get there because we're in New Zealand and we have jobs.
We can't pick up and run to Canada for a week or whatever.
(01:03:07):
What we would love to hear about it, if anyone does make it to it, I just think it's fantastic
that there's literally like a 50 year tradition of showing this one movie in this one time.
That's a 50 year tradition that's only happened this one time coming up.
No, no, they've literally been screening it for 50 years.
(01:03:27):
They're doing a big 50th anniversary like they.
But like it took off in this one time, like in the 70s and they've just they still love
it 50 years later.
And I think that's fantastic.
Like that's incredible to me.
Well I hope you have a spooky rest of the season and I will catch you next time.
(01:03:51):
So will I.
Bye bye.
Hi everyone, I'm Lisa.
(00:07):
And I'm Nik.
And you're listening to It Takes Two, the podcast where two people take two movies with
the same plot or premise and watch and discuss them.
(00:29):
Following continues.
This time it is a musical episode.
I was going to say 2024.
1974's The Phantom of Paradise and 1975's Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Phantom of the Paradise.
What did I say?
The Phantom of Paradise.
(00:50):
Fair enough.
Yeah, whereas the Paradise is the name of the actual theatre.
Rather than the opera.
Yes, yes, rather than the opera.
Had you seen Phantom of the Paradise before?
No, I hadn't.
Was it as weird for you as it was for me?
(01:12):
I don't know.
It is a very weird movie.
It is a weird movie.
I mean, I would say that Rocky Horror Picture Show is also a very weird movie.
Yes, it's just a famously movie that's also very weird.
Yeah, but that's only my second time ever seeing it.
What?
Yeah, we watched it together, I think shortly after we moved in together.
(01:34):
Hang on.
Rewind.
End podcast.
Rocky Horror Picture Show is one of the greatest out there cult classics of all time.
I wish I lived in a place where there were more viewings of it, because I think Embassy
(01:58):
have done it a couple of times.
I'd say that Roxy would be the place to go.
Yeah.
Everyone welly-toned.
I think they heavily pre-sold and you're in a weird group.
No, you can get them, because they do screenings of the room at the Roxy as well, and I've
seen them go up.
I just haven't been inclined to book them here.
(02:21):
Whereas when I was younger and I was back in Dublin, I went to several screenings of
the room.
Yeah.
It's shocking.
Actually, it's not shocking to me that you've seen the room more than you've seen the Rocky
Horror Picture Show.
No.
I will say, I don't know where you need to go to see more of the Rocky Horror Picture
Show, but I can tell you exactly where you need to go if you want to see The Phantom
(02:42):
of the Paradise in the cinema more often.
Or more often, you haven't seen it in the cinema once.
I believe in Manitoba.
I'll double check.
Manitoba?
Yeah.
Winnipeg.
Winnipeg, Manitoba.
Was that where it was filmed?
Nope.
They just loved it.
They just loved it so much, they bring it back every year.
Yeah.
They literally made it for its anniversary or something.
(03:07):
It must have been the 50 year anniversary.
Is that right?
50?
Yeah.
What are we talking about?
That would be this year, is it?
Yeah.
I don't know.
I don't remember which band it was, but there was one of the anniversaries for it that they
literally created some specific convention or festival just to celebrate the Phantom
(03:29):
of the Paradise in Winnipeg, Manitoba.
I don't know why.
Yeah, so they played it continuously.
So when it released in Winnipeg, they played it continuously in the local cinemas there
for like a year and a half.
(03:51):
What?
I don't know.
They were like, we fucking love this movie.
And it remains huge in that one area.
I don't know why.
I didn't find a reason why.
Oh yeah, it was.
Oh, sorry.
Excuse me.
(04:13):
It is for the 50th anniversary and it hasn't happened yet.
So there is going to be a 50th anniversary celebration on the 2nd of November.
So anyone who's in Winnipeg, Manitoba or living nearby somewhere else in Manitoba, perhaps,
or like Ontario or Saskatchewan or somewhere near the border.
(04:36):
I don't know why I can't think of the northern states of the US.
I can think of the bordering states in Canada.
I think that's right.
Ontario on one side and Saskatchewan on the other.
Probably Minnesota, maybe Wisconsin.
Are those states that border it to the south?
Anyway, if you live in that area and you love Phantom of the Paradise, or you heard about
(05:00):
it through this podcast and you decide you love it after this podcast.
Yeah, apparently Paul Williams is going to be there.
Some of the other actors, some musicians, they're going to do a Q&A.
There's a Facebook.
This is great because this came from, this is literally, I assume some fucking fan in
Winnipeg, Manitoba put this in as an INDB trivia fact.
(05:23):
And it's literally, I'll read it out word for word.
There will be a huge 50th anniversary celebration of Phantom of the Paradise in Winnipeg, Manitoba,
Canada on Saturday, November 2nd, 2024.
Celebration includes screening of movie.
Paul Williams and perhaps some other actors slash musicians will be present for Q&A.
Look for Facebook group for more info.
Winnipeg loves Phantom.
They just put an ad in there.
(05:44):
They just straight up put an ad in the INDB trivia.
But you know, I mean, it's living up to it.
Apparently Winnipeg loves Phantom of the Paradise.
So if you want to be watching Phantom of the Paradise, it's an event where you gotta go.
All right.
(06:05):
Other than the horror, the music, and the error and the craziness, there's not really
much that links these movies.
Yeah, I mean, plot wise, they're not the same, obviously.
No.
But they both are, they both came out around the same time.
They both are parodying horror and sci-fi.
(06:30):
I think I feel like Phantom of the Paradise is more like parodying specific horror things.
Well, yeah, yeah.
No, but there's like they do Peter Doinger Gray, they do Phantom of the Opera, they do,
you know, oh, I'm blanking now, but there's like Faust, of course.
Yeah, they have like a few that they just like pluck and do, you know, do a little parody
(06:55):
of.
They also both obviously are playing into, you know, the rise of rock music and musicians
becoming big in Hollywood and things like that.
And it's interesting.
It's also weird, because we like to talk when we do twins, these are twin films.
(07:18):
We like to talk when we do twin films about like, how they came out, whether someone copied
someone else, you know, whatever.
And I'd like to work backwards on a timeline for this.
So Rocky Horror Picture Show, the movie came out on the 14th of August, 1975.
Phantom of the Paradise came out 31st of October, 1974.
You're like, oh, Phantom of the Paradise came out first.
(07:41):
Rocky Horror Picture Show was actually a stage show before that from 1973.
So the other way around.
But actually, Phantom of the Paradise was in fucking production hell because it was
supposed to be released in summer of 1972.
And they had to change a bunch of things in post-production, a lot of which, from what
(08:03):
I gather, was because they in their parodying of the horrors of the music industry, they
basically used the actual logo of a studio that was notorious for treating their musicians
badly.
Wow.
(08:24):
Swan Song Studios, guys, who sued them.
And that's why like, even though the guy's name is Swan and every now and then there's
like a logo of a swan for the rest of it, it's like a dead bird and it's like death
records or whatever, is because they had to go through and edit out every single time
(08:45):
the original logo they had in there.
I think they literally put it in as Swan Song Studios.
Oh yeah, so their original was Swan Song Records and I think the actual one is Swan Song Studios.
I think they represented Pink Floyd and stuff.
That's crazy.
(09:06):
But yeah, they did not like it.
So there was a lot of production hell while they were...
Because I think they played it for them.
I think they were getting ahead of themselves to be like, hey, is this going to be a problem?
And yes, it was.
But I just thought it was funny that it seems like...
(09:29):
I don't think either of them were copying each other.
I think they're just two people had a similar idea at the same time, because this was a
thing to parody.
But it's just funny that they kind of leapfrog over each other timeline wise.
It's interesting to me because talking of the not copying each other, there is this
very...
(09:51):
There are some themes and obviously because these are both made in the 70s, there's obviously
some themes that sort of cross over.
I think we're very modern these days.
Everything is very modern.
We're very modern these days.
Yeah, well, I'm just saying like none of what happens in Rocky Horror Picture Show is actually
(10:18):
that shocking in this day and age.
This concept of this straight white couple going to a friend's wedding and then being
like, oh my God, they're so lucky.
Let's get married as well because we're so in love and then experience some sort of sexual
(10:40):
awakening by the hands of a alien.
Spoilers.
And coming out of their shell and it was a very 70s experience of just straight white
kids experiencing something and being like, holy shit, this is the best thing ever.
(11:03):
Let's just go crazy on it.
Phantom of the Paradise, other than the fact that it's taking a lot away from those main
sources, it is very much like you said, this turn of pop culture from the main...
(11:26):
They're sort of like the Beach Boys, the Juicy Fruits that are the main breadwinner of Swamp
Death.
Yeah, they remind me of Frankie Valli a little bit.
It's very 60s.
It's not even 60s.
50s, very 50s.
It's 60s but training to be the 50s to really get in that nostalgia era of we're trying
(11:50):
to continue on and then this fantastic music composer who ends up becoming the villain
slash victim of his own success.
It's very strange.
I mean, that is very Phantom of the Opera as well to an extent.
(12:12):
Is sort of trying to push people to do something a little bit more experimental, a little bit
out there, a little bit more cerebral and a new, more aggressive, beautiful dystopian
sort of ideal of rebellion and stuff and none of this nostalgia shit.
Of course, Swann being this heartless piece of shit record producer is like, cool, I'm
(12:38):
going to fuck this guy, steal his work and basically try and get him ruined so I can
just take his entire IP and just do what I want with it.
Also a bit of Harvey Weinstein in him, I think.
Those scenes where he's auditioning girls and it's just an orgy.
Horrifying.
(12:58):
And also very 70s.
I mean, it's interesting because knowing that this was supposed to be released in 72 means
that it would have been filmed in like, 71 probably.
Yeah, so like right off the edge of the 60s.
Yeah, so it's definitely just transitioning out of the 60s, whereas Rocky Horror is a
bit more into the 70s.
(13:23):
It's interesting because I think the main difference, the main takeaway from both of
these movies and the real juxtaposition, the real polarizing points is the unknown in The
(13:46):
Phantom is not sexy, where Tim Curry is incredibly sexy.
And that's I think the most polarizing part about it because it's interesting, just the
(14:08):
relationship he has with everybody other than his so-called staff, his housekeepers who
aren't, it's all a very learning to play an instrument and being a master of it and then
moving on to something else like instantly having like genius level but ADHD.
(14:30):
And that is one of those, the Frankenfurters biggest downfalls, he literally comes along,
has sex with whoever he wants to and then is just like, oh cool, shiny new thing.
And then like runs away and that's like what's disturbed his like, his crew, I guess, being
all aliens.
So The Phantom is like very much the opposite, he's like keeps the portrait of...
(15:00):
Featured to me, right?
Yeah, it's this like, he's becoming more and more of a monster and there's this weird like
satanic contract that's also built into the story.
Yeah.
Which I feel was very pointed at music industry preferential at the time.
It was just, everything about it was just bizarre from the beginning to the end.
(15:26):
And it's just like fantastically bizarre, like very enjoyably bizarre, but like not
a movie you'd be like inviting your normal, normal I say normal, but I'm saying like you're
not your weird film people I've got to watch.
Yeah.
Like that is not like a movie you would show to a general audience and be like, hey guys,
what do you think of 2024?
And be like, what the fuck is that?
(15:48):
I'm not the right person to talk about this because I still think everyone needs to watch
Sorry to Bother You.
I will agree that it is a movie, a film that everyone must enjoy.
But I don't think normal people as you would describe them would want to watch Sorry to
Bother You.
Someone at work brought that up by the way the other day, someone was like, oh, this
(16:11):
reminds me of this really cool movie, Sorry to Bother You.
I was like, oh, don't even get me started.
What a great movie.
Yeah, I think you're probably right there.
But I mean, it is, I think both are cult classics.
I think that Rocky Horror Picture Show has obviously become a whole other monster.
I think there's a simple reason which I'll get to when you finish that thought.
(16:36):
Just tell me.
It's the music.
I did think that.
Like I said, I...
Everybody knows Time Warp.
Even kids who have never seen that movie would know the Time Warp song.
Yeah, because I did.
I knew Time Warp before I'd ever seen Rocky Horror.
(16:59):
I don't think that the music in Phantom of the Paradise is bad.
I think it just didn't take off in a certain way.
And it's interesting to me because of who made the music for Phantom of the Paradise,
which is Paul Williams, who also played the Swann, the record executive.
And do you know him?
No.
Okay.
(17:20):
Well, I mean, I can tell you the names of some other songs that he's written, probably
the most famous of which is called Rainbow Connection, which is Kermit the Frog's big
song.
The song's big frog from the 1979 Muppet movie.
So Paul Williams has done a whole load of Muppet songs over the years, and those are
(17:45):
memorable.
They really stick with you.
So I think that he can clearly write songs that would last.
Like Rainbow Connection literally, like I said, was from a 1979 movie, and it's still
really well known around the world today.
And I guess Phantom of the Paradise just didn't get that.
(18:08):
And I'm trying to analyze it as we were watching it and trying to figure out, you know, are
these songs catchy enough that I would listen to them after?
But I don't, like by now, it's a couple of days since we watched them.
I don't remember them.
Whereas I remember a surprising amount of the Rocky Park Horror songs.
Like I said, I'd only seen the movie once before.
(18:29):
And then when it came on, I knew like half the words to Science Fiction Double VJR.
I was like, what's in the movie now?
Maybe a song.
Yeah, I think there's just something about the Rocky Horror songs that really do actually
stick with you.
(18:49):
And they're also just in popular culture more.
And you know, and musicals stay alive by people knowing the music.
It's sort of, I think that's probably why Cats was, I know you hate cats, but like not
(19:10):
the animals, the stage play.
It's because it doesn't have a plot.
It's just...
Neither do cats.
Okay, it does have a plot, but the plot is a bunch of cats are trying to sing their way
into heaven.
Yeah.
And that plot's also not even explained in the play.
(19:30):
You just got to know that externally, I guess.
It's stupid.
But yeah, I think it's because of the music.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like, I've never seen Phantom of the Opera in like actual on stage.
I know the music from it.
Well, like if you played one of the songs, I'd be like, oh, that's Phantom of the Opera.
(19:51):
Can I tell you some trivia?
About what?
Can I just tell you some trivia?
That's literally half your job.
The other half of your job is producing it and I'm not talking to myself.
And I love you.
I'm trying to find it here.
So this is third hand information.
So I say take this with a grain of salt, right?
(20:14):
Because it was one of the actors in Phantom of the Paradise told this to another actor
and that actor said, hey, I was told this.
And the director screened Phantom of the Paradise for Andrew Lloyd Webber and suggested because
(20:34):
they had collaborated before on the original London production of Jesus Christ Superstar,
proposed that they adapt Phantom of the Paradise for a stage.
And Andrew Lloyd Webber decided not to do it.
And then shortly afterwards, decided to adapt Phantom of the Opera to a musical.
(20:58):
And I love the idea that without Phantom of the Paradise, we might not have Andrew Lloyd
Webber's Phantom of the Opera.
Because obviously before that, you know, it was a silent film and it was, you know, I
think it was a play or things like that.
But it wasn't the musical didn't exist.
So it's funny that you're like, I know all the songs from Phantom of the Opera.
(21:20):
You know, some of them, you know, there's a few that if you heard them, you'd be like,
oh, I know exactly what that's wrong.
So I just think it's funny that that could have been Phantom of the Paradise.
It's really weird.
(21:40):
And kind of a good way.
But in like a what the fuck is happening on screen kind of way.
Yeah.
It's really worth watching.
I don't say that a lot about the movie that I would deem worse in the toad.
Yeah.
Because it's not worse.
(22:00):
It's just different in a way where it's sort of like eating something from a culture you
don't know very well.
And being like, I'm going to expose myself to something to grow internally.
And I might hate it.
Yeah.
Or I might be like, hey, have you been to this place?
(22:22):
It's really cool.
You know, like that guy.
There are some scenes in it.
The eye chronography of the movie, the weirdness.
It all sort of works together, but it is sort of like, you know, watching a train crash is
(22:42):
a wrong analogy.
It's like watching a blender in reverse.
Can I say something else that I think made, weirdly made Rocky Horror more successful?
I think Phantom of the Paradise had costume designers who knew what they were doing.
(23:03):
And I think Rocky Horror Picture Show had a costume designer who herself has admitted
she had never watched any sci-fi and didn't bother to look at sci-fi for reference for
what people would wear in a sci-fi and just created some fucking weird ass costumes.
And the weird dichotomy of the costumes in that movie work somehow in a way that they
(23:26):
haven't aged because they're not from an actual era.
Even though sci-fi is often a futuristic or whatever, alternate something, Phantom of
the Paradise was very much like costume of the era.
And then his mask and things like that, very Phantom of the Opera.
(23:48):
Whereas Rocky Horror just like, the costuming is timeless because it literally isn't from
any time.
It's just insane costuming.
It really is and that's the Phantom's outfit.
Obviously spoilers, spoilers, spoilers.
(24:09):
How he ends up like that, it's Phantom of the Opera.
There's a little bit of Frankenstein in there I think as well.
So he goes to prison.
And Warden is obsessed with ripping people's teeth out so he gets metal teeth.
Then he escapes from prison.
(24:32):
His half his face melted by a vinyl press.
That's not even how vinyl presses work.
Falls onto a river and then comes back and steals costuming, very Phantom of the Opera.
It depicts science fiction heavy metal bird demon.
(24:55):
Yeah, it's almost like Plague Doctor but a weird sci-fi version of it.
And then on top of that he goes full Darth Vader with the fact that he needs a voice
box.
And the weird contract and blood thing and the fact that he's just being constantly fled
(25:16):
drugs and kept locked in a room.
Yeah, I mean that's clearly taken directly from Elvis Presley and other musicians.
But he's also now superhuman.
It's all very weird but in a good way.
(25:37):
Here's the thing about it.
It's making commentary that is still relevant.
Sadly, there are people in that industry and like I mentioned the film industry who do
abuse their artists like that.
And it's clearly taking some very direct references there.
(26:01):
I thought they almost were hammering it in too much when he was giving them the cocktail
of drugs to take.
It's like okay, this is literally like I've heard about this for...
Michael Jackson was another one but obviously long after this happened.
(26:22):
It's weird to see it just spelled out as people were clearly very aware that it was happening
in the early 70s and that it's to some extent, maybe not to the same extent, but it's to
some extent still happening today.
The other character, it's like Swann is this guy who can't be photographed.
(26:47):
It's like in the agreement with the media so no one knows who he looks like and that's
like his whole like shtick.
Obviously I mentioned the Juicy Fruits earlier which are like these very like, I don't even
know what the term is from that era, but it's like harmless, like your grandmother would
listen to it kind of era.
(27:08):
Again, look at that, Frankie Bailey.
Non-threatening, yeah.
Happy days without the phones.
And then he's like changing and there's like this whole concept of like the weird sex audition
and then the girl who wins a lot who becomes the phantom, his obsession with her and he's
(27:31):
like rewriting the entire thing and then Swann's taking that creativeness and is moving it
to this new entity he's created who's a rock god, like that real, not quite hair metal
era, like the power metal era, but sort of like the real like make the girls scream,
(27:54):
make the parents not want them to listen to it, you know, that Satan music, like that
sort of era of like electric guitar and lighting and stage presence, that sort of era.
It kind of reminded me a little bit of like Peggy Sue got married, like they're so harmless,
(28:17):
they're like, you know, archipelago sort of, not archipelago, that's a bunch of violence.
What's the term, please?
Thank you.
I'm broken Lisa.
I'm broken Lisa.
Acapella.
Acapella.
Acapella, it's two words, acapella.
Archipelago.
Yeah, some Gallipolis there.
(28:38):
Gallipolis.
What's wrong with it?
Gallopetis.
Are you okay?
It was my train of thought, hang on, I'm derailing the train.
And yeah, the beef character who's taken the music and is like going to be reforming it,
(29:02):
and of course it's very, you know, he's the main, the lead after the Phantom's been taken
off but the Phantom's not the lead who was then mangled, it's the other way around.
And how he dies is hilarious to me.
And the fact that it's just like, oh, the show goes on.
(29:22):
They, by the way.
Really elitricuted then going?
No.
The guy from Swan Records or whatever the real studio's name was that they showed the
movie to get the sign off on them using the Swan logo, who then didn't let them use the
Swan logo, broke down in tears at that part because he had managed a band where the front
(29:48):
man had actually been electrocuted to death on stage.
Oh wow.
And then they were like, we're not going to take that part out.
Which is really shitty actually.
But yeah, so he, yeah.
So that was lifted from real life, unfortunately.
But I don't think in the real instance he was, it was a guy backstage doing it on purpose.
(30:13):
With a giant neon lightning bolt.
No.
Do you think beef was like the equivalent of Rocky?
Um.
I mean, obviously not like, exactly, but he's not like manmade and he's not, you know.
Well, you say he's not manmade, but that's like the whole stick.
(30:35):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he is.
Like his.
It's like he's like the puppet.
Yeah.
So it's this concept of Juicy Fruit to like push to the side and then his reveal is like
out of a coffin.
But like, on the runway of an airport?
(30:55):
Next to private planes, which I guess is just like, how do we add money into the filming?
Yeah.
Like how does it look real and expensive?
I think, yeah, it was very much that like he's definitely like the guy that, first of
all, he's kind of like the favorite.
(31:16):
So it's, you know, Rocky versus Eddie.
But he's also like the guy that Swan is going to mold into what he wants him to be and who
isn't going to like fight back about it and will just do what he's told.
And, you know, from those kinds of points of views, I felt like he was an equivalent
to Rocky.
I mean, they were similar character type, even though they're obviously not quite, you
(31:40):
know, he wasn't just born.
There's, I think one of the differences that Talking of Beef and The Phantom, there's a
lot of physical comedy that isn't in Rocky Horror Picture Show.
There's, I would say a lot more violence and implied violence in Rocky Horror Picture Show.
(32:06):
You mean like a guy getting his face melted in a vinyl press?
Well I'm saying about the fact, spoilers, for those who don't remember, Meatloaf's brain
was cut in half and half of it was put into Rocky and the other half was, I guess, left
(32:27):
in his body.
Yeah.
I can't remember, Little Hill?
What's her bloody name?
I don't actually think it's her actual name.
I can't remember the actual cast member's name.
For which, who?
Little Neal, Columbia.
Oh right, okay.
She's in love with both of them, but was like originally in love with...
(32:52):
But who's Little Neal?
Columbia.
But where's Little Neal coming from?
That's the actor's name.
Her name is Nell Campbell.
Why is it under Little Nell?
Oh, it's Nell, not Neal.
There's two L's, Nell, yeah you're right.
I was reading it funny.
Where's Little, who called her Little Nell?
(33:15):
Literally right there on the Wikipedia page is Little Nell.
Little Nell, weird.
That was who the credit was for.
Well, on INDB she's Nell Campbell.
Yeah.
Train derailed.
Underailing.
And the fact that Meatloaf comes out, does his big absolutely fantastic rock ballad
(33:42):
piece and that is instantly murdered.
Yeah.
And in front of everybody.
And then it's just like, alright dinner.
And then is fed to them.
It's certainly implied that he is bad to them.
Yes.
So you get murdered in front of a lover and then cannibalism.
(34:08):
There is a lot more that is just sort of played off because the focus isn't on what's happening,
the focus is on who and his happening toes.
Yeah.
But like when Rock, like he's a maid in a, like maid howl.
Rocky's maid howl.
That's another Frankenstein.
There's Frankenstein references in both.
(34:28):
The fact that he just like breaks into every room, like the fact that they have surveillance
in the bedrooms, Frankenverter dresses up like the other two and then just like proceeds
to have sex with them.
The fact that it like breaks her brain and she goes off and has sex with Rocky.
(34:50):
And that whole Susan Sarandon fantastic song piece.
Yeah I think it's just a little bit more like, it's sort of like glamorized, here's the
violence but song and dance in front of it.
You know what I mean?
(35:11):
Given the old razzle dazzle.
Yeah I think with the Phantom of the Paradise it is very much like here's some violence
and here's how it expands the story.
I think.
Like a funnel.
I think the difference is, I'm making this up as we go along.
I think the difference is.
(35:31):
It's 90% of all I do.
In Phantom of the Paradise that is how the audience sees it but we're behind the scenes
seeing things from Winslow's point of view.
Whereas in Rocky Horror Picture Show we're being dazzled.
We're part of, we're with, our point of view is Brad and Janet who have just walked into
(35:55):
this and are like, are in a front to their senses and like they don't know what's going
on.
So you're getting the dazzle effect and then you kind of see what's going, the man behind
the curtain.
Whereas in Phantom of the Paradise the whole way along we are behind the curtain and we're
seeing but you see that like when the audience are still cheering for beef when he's just
(36:18):
been electrocuted to death and they're like putting him out with an extinguisher.
And even like spoiler alert at the end of the movie when several people die.
I don't know if you want me to spoil it that much.
The audience just go back to partying.
They're still in that razzle dazzle.
They're not really caring about really seeing the violence that's going on.
(36:39):
They don't know what's going on behind the curtain.
So I think it's very much a perspective.
I think we've just shifted.
I think like I said we're behind the curtain.
We're behind the scenes in Phantom of the Paradise.
So that dazzling effect is still happening just not to us.
Whereas in Rocky Horror Picture Show we're on the other side of it.
(37:02):
Does that make sense?
Yeah it does.
Which also makes sense I guess because Rocky Horror started as a stage show.
So you are the audience.
You are on that side of it.
Sorry I just hit the styrofoam.
It happens.
(37:22):
I almost tripped and died on it yesterday.
I don't know.
It would be very interesting to watch these movies again without.
It would be very interesting to watch these movies again if I'd never seen either of them.
(37:45):
Does that make a lot of sense?
There is part of pop culture that has come along with Rocky Horror Picture Show.
If you've got a group of people dressed up in weird costumes and they were from Rocky
Horror Picture Show you'd be like I've never seen that movie but I know who they were.
(38:07):
Obviously Phantom of the Opera is also within.
Paradise?
No I'm saying Phantom of the Opera is very much also in the pop culture.
The Simpsons do it and so on and so forth.
Does your measurement did the Simpsons do it?
Pretty much because they did everything to the point where I guess I haven't watched
(38:27):
it in like several years but from what I hear online it is not going well for the writing.
The whole mask thing, the hiding in the rafters, that whole thing is part and parcel.
There's a Disgrilled novel that's that plot.
It's everywhere.
(38:48):
It's very interesting to watch it in this weird blend.
Because you're right about the costume thing.
I had seen the character, the Phantom before.
(39:09):
Things like reaction GIFs, some sort of mean format where this weird bird man with the
metal teeth.
For some reason dark lips.
Did he just decide to go goth when he got the metal teeth?
It must have been the fact that he was burnt.
It's very very very strange.
(39:34):
The image of that movie make fantastic GIFs and this weird, the constantly being viewed
thing which is sort of the most translatable part of both these movies.
There's a lot of surveillance stuff going on.
(39:54):
Obviously I'm too young because I was born in the 80s not the 70s.
I don't know if that was on everybody's mind at the time.
I mean 1984 was a...
That didn't happen yet.
Well no, it was written as a future dystopia of the year 1984.
Or current dystopia if you live in a certain country.
(40:18):
That's both countries in the world actually.
Going back a second, I think it's interesting what you say that you'd love to have watched
the two of them without having seen them before.
Because that is how a lot of people in the 70s saw them.
(40:38):
So when Rocky Horror came out first it didn't do well and then they kind of re-released
it.
I think it's still played in a couple places so technically Rocky Horror picture shows
have never not been in cinemas since it first aired.
But they did a second wide release where they did play them as a double bill.
(41:01):
So a lot of people saw these movies for the first time as a double bill in cinema.
And then if you want to know the real success of Rocky Horror picture show it was that the
distributors realized that it would do well at midnight screenings which were becoming
more popular.
And because they got it into midnight screenings it never came out of cinema.
(41:26):
Because it got so popular in the midnight screenings.
But if you look at the original wide release box office numbers it's minuscule.
Both movies were flops.
But then some clever distribution got Rocky Horror into the audiences that needed to see
(41:49):
it and those are the audiences that kept it alive.
And for Fanta of the Paradise that's Winnipeg, Manitoba, exclusively.
For some reason I just think of oh my god now I can't remember his name.
The guy who's in Baywatch and Knight Rider.
And Hasselhoff.
(42:11):
David Hasselhoff and his singing career in Germany.
Right.
It's interesting how things have become very popular in a particular place.
There's quite a few of those weird ones where people are just like a certain demographic
just completely get obsessed with one individual artist and they're like no one else.
(42:32):
They're like what that guy still makes music?
It's like yeah he's like number two in this country and you're like what?
I mean that's what the song Big in Japan is about.
Yeah.
You know.
Because there's artists that weren't making it back home in their English speaking countries
but were Big in Japan.
It's really weird.
(42:55):
I would say I enjoy both of these movies which you know for those who have been long term
listeners doesn't always happen.
There's not much more I can think of to say honestly.
Okay.
I'm assuming because we've done it backwards there's no more trivia.
There is so much trivia for both of these movies that it was hard to even pare it down.
(43:19):
Because they're both cult classics and they've been around since the 70s and people actually
care enough about them to research and put in trivia.
You know as opposed to some movies we watch where there's none or there's one sentence
and then I'm trying to look up somewhere else and still find nothing.
We've talked over a bunch of it though.
(43:42):
In an interview with the New York Times both members of Daft Punk cite Phantom of the Paradise
as their favorite film of all time and the foundation for a lot of what they're about
artistically.
So if you're fans of Daft Punk this is Phantom of the Paradise where they got their inspiration.
French Bane.
Yeah a little underground.
(44:04):
They claim to have seen it over 20 times each and they got Paul Williams to appear on their
album Random Access Memories because they love Phantom of the Paradise so much.
The single edit time bomb in the car trunk sequence which is, can I talk about that for
(44:26):
a second?
Absolutely fantastic bit of cinematography.
I mentioned that while we were watching it even and it's an homage to the opening of
Touch of Evil which was a very famous Orson Welles single shot opening of a film.
It's very well done that we're seeing backstage and in front of the stage split screen the
(44:47):
whole time and then people will cross from one into the other.
The camera's following people and do that but you never see the cameras and it was clearly
all done in one take.
So incredible piece of cinematography and also choreographed actors and camera work
(45:07):
for that.
Because that was something I hadn't seen before.
I think the movie that pops to mind is Birdman.
Yeah Birdman does great cinematography.
These must be joined together.
There's no way this is filmed simultaneously.
I think in Birdman there are some clever edits.
(45:29):
There are very well done.
Birdman was definitely a movie that I saw that in cinema and when I came out of it I
thought that better win an Oscar for cinematography.
It's not often that you watch a movie and think about the cinematography in it.
Maybe me a little bit more than other people having studied film and stuff.
(45:54):
Even then most of the time I'm not thinking about cinematography watching a movie.
So I do like it when there's something that really grabs you like that.
A lot of these...
Oh I didn't even realise.
Remember I said that an actor who was in a movie with another actor said the thing about
(46:18):
Lloyd Webber?
It was Nell Campbell.
The other movie was Shock Treatment.
Ah yes.
Do not watch Shock Treatment folks.
They're all connected.
I think I've said all the rest of the trivia for this one except that Phantom of the Paradise
is also Nicholas Cage's favourite Brian De Palma film.
(46:40):
We've seen Snake Eyes which is a Brian De Palma film starring Nicholas Cage.
I think Phantom of the Paradise was the reason that he wanted to work with Brian De Palma
because he loved this movie so much.
I can picture Nick Cage.
If they did a remake of Phantom of the Paradise and cast Nick Cage as Winslow...
(47:00):
They would make my Christmas.
That would be perfect.
There's not a more perfect actor to reprise that role.
Rocky Horror Picture Show.
I feel weird talking about Rocky Horror Picture Show because it does have such a cult following.
(47:22):
Like I said, this is the second time I've seen this film.
I don't think there's anything I can say here that people who love the film don't already
know.
I'll go with what I have here.
The film opened...
Oh this is all about the re-releasing.
I kind of talked about this.
(47:44):
It was opened in August 1975 in London and then it opened in September in the United
States.
It did well in one location in Los Angeles and then nowhere else.
It was actually withdrawn from all eight opening cities because they were getting too small
(48:12):
audiences so it actually pulled from cinema sooner than they planned to.
It was supposed to have a New York City opening on Halloween night which was cancelled.
But then around the same time they re-released it on college campuses and around college
campuses as a double bill with Phantom of the Paradise.
(48:35):
But it still drew small audiences and it wasn't until they did the midnight screenings that
it really kicked off.
The first midnight showing was on April Fool's Day 1976 in New York City.
This is, believe it or not, the theatrical movie debut of one Tim Curry who had never
(48:56):
been in a film before this.
What?
Did you not know that?
No I did not know that.
So Tim Curry...
Basically Richard O'Brien had to fight to get Tim Curry cast because they wanted to
replace him with big name actors.
They ended up taking a lower budget for the film because the only way they were going
(49:19):
to get the higher budget was to not cast Tim Curry because he was an unknown.
But Tim Curry played the role on the West End.
So he originated the role on stage and he played it and went to Broadway.
And they were like, this is the guy.
We've got to have him in it.
(49:40):
Yeah, he played him from 1973 to 1975.
So Tim Curry I think was well known in acting circles as a theatrical actor.
He was doing theatre work.
But he had never done film before.
(50:04):
So I just thought that was fascinating that that's his first film.
I mean Tim Curry is like absolute icon.
So Tim Curry, Richard O'Brien, Patricia Quinn and Nell Campbell all reprised the same
roles that they played in the original stage production.
But only Tim Curry and Richard O'Brien also did it on Broadway.
(50:28):
So it was the director, Jim Sharman, who turned down an offer from 20th Century Fox for a
larger budget and a longer shooting schedule if he would cast the options where Mick Jagger,
David Bowie, Lou Reed or Cher.
And he was like, no, the people who actually developed this deserve to be in the movie.
(50:57):
And that they should be the ones who get to play the roles in film.
So he wanted to keep as many of the original cast members as possible.
So they took a smaller budget and a shorter filming time.
But also it's probably part of why it became so successful as well in that so many of the
(51:22):
actors had done those roles so many times.
Like they were embodying them already because otherwise they would have had very little
time to actually rehearse before filming.
So these were actors who understood the style of it.
They understood the music.
They understood, you know, and they were able to do it.
No problem.
What else is there?
(51:46):
So the one thing that I thought was funny, you know, when Dr. Scott, like they put the
magnet on and his wheelchair light comes through and then smash it through the wall.
The set designers had just forgotten to put a door in the lab set.
There was supposed to be a door there.
Oh, right.
(52:06):
So that's why they just burst through the wall.
So then they just decided to just, yeah, so the set was supposed to have a door for him
to come through.
But then they decided to just, when they realized they hadn't built it, they decided to just
shove them through the wall.
So it's very funny because I think that turned out pretty well.
There's so many bits of trivia about this.
Oh, yeah.
(52:28):
So apparently, so they filmed it in a castle in England and apparently there was a leak.
So it was always wet and it was always cold and they had one warm room that they just
filled with space heaters so the cast members could take turns going in and getting heated
up and then the room caught fire.
(52:51):
One room with heaters and a car fire.
When Frank Conferter is creating Rocky Horror and he's turning all the colored things, he
has to do them in a particular order, but they didn't tell him the order.
So they were just shouting colors at him off stage, which is why every now and then Tim
Carrey just looked really confused looking for one because they'd just be going, red!
(53:15):
And he had to find it.
Which I also thought was funny.
This is mostly just things I thought was funny.
Apparently Richard O'Brien says, so you know the way there's the weird old clock that has
a skeleton inside it?
No, but okay.
(53:36):
You didn't notice that?
There's a clock in Frank Conferter's castle that has just a skeleton in it.
You don't think it's a real skeleton?
Yeah.
So the skeleton belonged to the woman who commissioned the clock.
That's dark.
Yeah, and then apparently in 2002 they auctioned off the coffin clock and it sold for £35,000.
(54:01):
You'd think it would be more than that for a woman's real skeleton.
Illegal in New Zealand.
I just found out something horrible.
Oh yeah?
It was a 2016 TV movie.
Of Rocky Horror?
Yeah.
Okay, so I haven't, like I said, I've only seen the movie twice, but I had seen an amateur
(54:25):
community theatre stage production of it years ago first.
I think it's actually a lot of fun in having people just like try to do these roles.
This class list is insane though.
Oh is it?
Like well known people?
Who played Frank Conferter?
LeBrun Cox.
(54:51):
Oh wow, okay.
Adam Lambert plays Eddie.
Okay I can see that.
Maybe we should watch this.
Is this going to be, we're going to have to do this again as a remake episode?
I guess so.
I guess, yeah, well I'll stop talking about it, but yeah.
(55:12):
Interesting, interesting.
So the person who made it, directed by, was the guy who did the High School Musicals trilogy.
Kenny Ortega.
So I think this is going to, we're going to be talking this movie, but one of these movies
(55:36):
again because...
That's interesting.
Okay.
Yeah, Tim Curry is in it.
Oh nice.
So that's why I was like going through his list, I was like wait a second, where the
hell, because what I was doing, I was going through his live action stuff while we were
talking.
Yeah.
And I was like where the hell is it?
(55:56):
I forgot it was in a TV thing.
And I was like hang on a second, he was in lots of television and it was like going through
and I was like hang on a second, what the fuck is this?
Rocky Horror, that's great.
Tim, I genuinely really love Tim Curry and I don't know if we've talked about that much.
One of the bits of trivia that I obviously didn't take down, but I remember reading it,
was that he was so, he was not treated well by fans after this movie.
(56:24):
Like I think overly sexualized and people like following him around and stuff like that.
So he said he deliberately got chubby and plain after the movie because he just couldn't
put up with the way people were treating him.
Which is sad that he felt like he needed to do that.
And it's sad that people treated him like that.
(56:44):
But I guess they were treating him like he was a rock star.
You know, going back to our fans in Paradise, the way people were treated.
There would have been a way in a group of people following him around after he was in
the head.
No, I'm talking about Rocky Horror fans.
Yeah.
The other bits of trivia I had here were, so the director said that while him and Richard
(57:07):
O'Brien were working on the screenplay together, what they were going for was a darker version
of The Wizard of Oz.
Yeah, I get that.
So they did actually speed up the vocals during time warp to make them sound more munchkin
like as well.
So you get the...
Yeah, it is very, oh my god it is.
Oh no, are we going to have to do it again?
No, I don't know.
(57:27):
And then the other thing I had on here was that they didn't tell any of the actors or
actresses except for Tim Curry, Richard O'Brien and Meatloaf about having the prop course
of Eddie under the dining table.
(57:48):
They didn't tell them they were going to do that.
So I mean, Meatloaf had to know about it because he modeled for it.
But then Tim Curry and Richard O'Brien obviously were supposed to not really react to it, to
them that's normal or whatever.
But no one else was expecting them to just reveal the corpse underneath and be like,
(58:10):
ha ha ha.
Tim Curry is great.
Can I just say that?
I think I already did.
Why are you so good though?
I'm trying to think, have we done other Tim Curry movies?
Was it just Ferngully?
I was going to say, did we do or did we just watch Home Alone 2?
Yeah, no, we didn't do.
(58:30):
We did Home Alone 1 on the podcast with planes, trains and automobiles, but we haven't done
Home Alone 2.
I do love Tim Curry.
What else could we do that he's in?
I'm sure we could compare something to Clue.
We've got SNS to do.
Yeah, but that's a TV show, isn't it?
(58:52):
It's like a TV series.
They're technically a mini series.
Yeah, well we're not doing mini series.
But it is technically a remake.
Yeah, but it's a different adaptation.
It's not a remake of another movie.
So I think if we do it, it'll be very far down the line when we're running out of other
(59:13):
things.
Fair enough.
But I'm sure there's other things we could do, like Wild Thornberrys, the movie.
With what?
Something else where someone talks to animals.
I don't know.
That's a good movie, by the way.
Have you ever watched the Wild Thornberrys movie?
No, I don't remember.
It's very good.
We can get on to that some of the time.
(59:35):
I do want to talk budget and box office.
Do you have any ideas on the budgets and box offices of these?
It's 70s money.
I have no idea.
Okay.
Do you want me to give you one and you guess the other?
Sure.
Okay, so which one would you like the budget of?
I'm assuming Rocky Horror Picture Show costs less.
(59:57):
Okay, so which one do you want me to give you the budget of?
The Phantom of the Paradise.
Okay, Phantom of the Paradise budget was $1.3 million.
So I'm going to go with $900,000 for Rocky Horror Picture Show.
Halfway between, $1.1 million for Rocky Horror.
And then for the initial run, box office, Phantom of the Paradise made $2,245.
(01:00:24):
Jesus!
Yeah.
And Rocky Horror made $21,245.
So I can understand why there were flaws.
You were speaking to a car that exploded in the morning.
Genuinely.
Yeah, really horrible.
Rocky Horror has since made $115 million.
(01:00:47):
Yeah.
And that's not counting DVD Blu-ray sales of which it will have made a shit ton.
But yeah, Phantom of the Paradise.
Because there would have been no insurance and no tax write off bullshit like there is
now with that whole Batwoman movie.
Oh yeah.
And these were clearly passion projects.
(01:01:08):
Yeah.
So I'm glad they have found cold audiences.
But I do think there was some controversy around Rocky Horror that I don't know the
full details of.
But I think Susan Sarandon spoke out about it.
That I think none of the actors saw any royalties from VHS, DVD, Blu-ray sales.
(01:01:30):
Right.
When obviously that's where a lot of the money has come from.
But I mean, I guess that's not something they were writing into a contract in 1975.
Or 74 when they were finished.
Hey, just in case it's new technology, it needs it made.
Yeah, home video was not really a thing.
(01:01:52):
It was also, by the way, I just because I remember reading this, but I didn't put it
down, that the Rocky Horror Preacher Show was filmed, I think it was filmed in six weeks.
And they started filming like one week before Phantom of the Paradise was released.
So they were filming at the time that it was released, which I thought was interesting.
But I don't think they've changed the film version very much from this from the stage
(01:02:16):
play version.
I hope you're having a great October.
You can make ours better by going to our Discord and joining it and talking with us or going
to our website.
It takes two dot co dot enzyme.
Yes.
Signing up to our newsletter.
And if you go to the second of November 50th anniversary screenings of Phantom of the Paradise
(01:02:45):
in Winnipeg, Manitoba, join our Discord and tell us about it.
Share pictures.
I want to know about it.
We obviously can't get there because we're in New Zealand and we have jobs.
We can't pick up and run to Canada for a week or whatever.
(01:03:07):
What we would love to hear about it, if anyone does make it to it, I just think it's fantastic
that there's literally like a 50 year tradition of showing this one movie in this one time.
That's a 50 year tradition that's only happened this one time coming up.
No, no, they've literally been screening it for 50 years.
(01:03:27):
They're doing a big 50th anniversary like they.
But like it took off in this one time, like in the 70s and they've just they still love
it 50 years later.
And I think that's fantastic.
Like that's incredible to me.
Well I hope you have a spooky rest of the season and I will catch you next time.
(01:03:51):
So will I.
Bye bye.
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