August 9, 2024 • 27 mins
In part 1 Raffaele Fontanella explains the origins of surnames from the renaissance, how dialects impacted first names and surnames based on his book "Cognomi di Stabia". How the Romans used first names, surnames and nicknames. How the Germans named people and how that impacted Italian names. And an introduction to part 2 where he will explain the 4 naming conventions in Italy.
Could you imagine a country with more surnames than most nations have people? Join us as we uncover the secrets behind Italy's astonishing 300,000 surnames with our special guests, Raffaele Fontanella, an expert in Italian linguistics, and his translator Rich DiPalma. Raffaele walks us through the captivating world of Italian surnames, revealing how Italy's rich linguistic diversity and unique use of prefixes and suffixes have created a multitude of last names. Rich also shares his personal experience with Raffaele, highlighting the profound connections between language and heritage in Italy, and how uncovering these links can be a deeply personal and enlightening journey.
Explore the medieval naming practices that shaped Italian society, especially within noble families. Discover the intriguing story of Bob's great-grandmother, Caracciolo, whose multiple names were more than just a tradition—they were a necessity to preserve noble lineages and distinguish individuals in an ever-growing population. From patronymics and place names to professions and nicknames, we'll trace the origins of these second names and their evolution into the essential identifiers they are today. Tune in for an enlightening episode that peels back the layers of Italy's historical and cultural tapestry through the lens of its surnames.
Riusciresti a immaginare un paese con più cognomi di quanti siano gli abitanti della maggior parte delle nazioni? Unisciti a noi mentre scopriamo i segreti dietro gli incredibili 300.000 cognomi italiani con i nostri ospiti speciali, Raffaele Fontanella, esperto di linguistica italiana, e il suo traduttore Rich De Palma. Raffaele ci accompagna attraverso l'affascinante mondo dei cognomi italiani, rivelando come la ricca diversità linguistica dell'Italia e l'uso unico di prefissi e suffissi abbiano creato una moltitudine di cognomi. Rich condivide anche la sua esperienza personale con Raffaele, evidenziando i profondi legami tra lingua e patrimonio in Italia e come scoprire questi legami possa essere un viaggio profondamente personale e illuminante.
Esplora le pratiche di denominazione medievali che hanno plasmato la società italiana, specialmente all'interno delle famiglie nobili. Scopri l'intrigante storia della bisnonna di Bob, Caracciolo, i cui molteplici nomi erano più di una semplice tradizione: erano una necessità per preservare i lignaggi nobili e distinguere gli individui in una popolazione in continua crescita. Dai patronimici e nomi di luogo alle professioni e ai soprannomi, ripercorreremo le origini di questi secondi nomi e la loro evoluzione negli identificatori essenziali che sono oggi. Sin
Turnkey. The only thing you’ll lift are your spirits.
Italian Marketplace LLCOnline tee shirts, hoodies and more for Italians
Farmers and Nobles
Read about my research story and how to begin your family research.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Hi everyone, this is Bob Sorrentino, from Italian
Roots and Genealogy.
Be sure to check out our blogand our YouTube and our
newsletter and our greatsponsors, your Dolce Vita Italy,
rooting Phil Italy andAbbiative Casa.
And today I have a great guest,raffaele Fontanella, who's
written a book about our Italiansurnames and and the origin of
(00:38):
those, and a good friend of hisand mine, rich De Palma, who's
going to translate for us.
So welcome guys.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Grazie, buona sera.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
So Rich.
Why don't you give a littlebrief history of yourself, and
then you could ask Rafael to dothe same?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Okay, I'm Rich De Palma.
I'm an eighth grade Italianteacher in Connecticut and I met
Raffaele, though we haven't metin person yet.
I hope to meet him somedaybecause my dad's family is from
Castella Mare di Stabia, rightoutside of Naples and near
Pompeii that area of Italy andit was the only part of my
(01:22):
family tree I never had any luckresearching and I hired
Raffaele and he and his sonSimone.
They figured out the problem.
The problem was that before mygreat-grandfather, all of his
ancestors were actually fromAbruzzo and they sometime moved
to Castellammare, probably forthe shipbuilding between 1875
(01:46):
and 1879.
And ever since then, raffaeletook the tree back like 200
years earlier.
It was a phenomenal experience.
Hai capito.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Raffaele.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Tutto.
Ho capito Una presentazione dite stesso.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Ah ok, grazie.
La prima cosa è che sono molto,molto contento di stare qui con
voi.
A presentation of yourself Ahok, thank you.
The first thing is that I amvery happy to be here with you.
The second thing is that itseems to me a duty to thank both
Bob Sorrentino for thehospitality and, clearly, my
friend Rick Di Palma for thetradition.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Ok, first things.
First, he's extremely happy tobe here, and the second is he
wants to thank you, bob, forhaving him here, and he's happy
to also be in touch with me toofor the first time, sort of.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I am a professor of economics and then I am also a
graphic designer.
I have been studying graphicsfor almost 40 years, but I have
always been passionate aboutlinguistics, that is,
understanding what words are,where they come from or the ways
(02:57):
of saying economics and he alsois a graphic designer.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
He's done all of this for about 40 years, but he's
also had a great great.
He's always been verypassionate about languages in
general, linguistica andespecially like the roots of
words, the etymology of words,and I think that's where this
basis of all these surnamescomes into E infatti, tra le
(03:33):
parole, l'etimologia delleparole, un interesse particolare
per I cognomi.
Okay, in addition to just theorigin of words, specifically
last names too.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Exactly, and in fact I remember as a boy, as a child,
that when I heard my last nameI said but why do I have that
last name?
Or rather, what did that lastname mean?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
And then, little by by little, I did these
researches so much so that Iwrote a nice book on the origin
of surnames.
Do I have that name?
And then, a little by little,you know, he just was interested
(04:25):
more and more in the origin oflast names, and that's when he
decided to create this bookitaliano.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
da un record italiano , l'italia in tutto il mondo ha
il maggior numero di cognomirispetto agli altri stati.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Okay, so he wants to tell us a little bit about last
names in general, specificallyItalian.
He said that Italians actually,as an ethnic group, have more
last names than any group reallyin the whole world world
300,000 300,000 over 300,000 Ifwe compare it with China, which
(05:12):
we know is big and we know thatit has about a billion people,
and instead Italy has 60 millionpeople.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
We would expect China to have many nicknames.
Instead, China has only 7,000,7,000, while Italy, as Bob said,
350,000.
Mentre l'Italia, come ha dettoBob, 350.000 cognomi.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Okay, so it says.
He says, if we were to compareas a group, italy and China,
which we know has more than abillion people, only Italy 60
million, he said, in Chinathere's only 7,000 last names,
where in Italy, like you saidBob, you said what?
(06:09):
300,000?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That's just amazing and I'll ask you this question,
but I'll answer it.
The question is this why doesItaly have all these last names?
And the answer is this is thatwe have, we Italians, but I also
hope you call it Italy.
We have a wonderful languagethat, to make some concepts,
(06:38):
uses prefixes and suffixes.
Bob translate.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Wait, so why?
The question is why do we haveso many last names?
And he said he wants to answer?
Is we have such a beautiful, awonderful language that to
express some of these concepts,Italians use so many suffixes
and prefixes and variations ofjust one simple word.
(07:05):
Sometimes that translates intoalso a lot of different last
names.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Bravo.
Infatti tu prima hai detto cheil mio cognome si poteva
tradurre come Little Fountain,mentre la parola in italiano è
fontana e noi possiamo fare peresempio l'accrescitivo dicendo
fontanone, oppure una piccolafontana, fontanina o fontanaccia
(07:32):
o fontanella.
Avete visto quanti cognomipartendo solo da fontana,
fontanina o fontanaccia ofontanella?
Avete visto quanti cognomipartendo solo da fontana?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So he said, just like the last name, the word fontana
is fountain.
So if you had like a badfountain, it'd be fontanaccia.
If you had a big fountain,fontanone.
If you have a little fountain,fontanina, a cute, adorable
fountain, fontanella E Raffaele,se posso aggiungere.
If I'd like to add also Bob,your last name is a diminutive,
(08:04):
sorrentino, right?
No?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
no, no, Never mind, I'm wrong.
No, perché in italiano la partefinale inno rappresenta
l'ettrico, cioè abitante diSorrento.
Ah, capito, See etymical, thatis the inhabitant of Sorrento,
oh.
I see, I learned today I'velearned Okay, okay, okay, like
the termination in ano, likeNapoletano, so the inhabitant of
(08:30):
Naples.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Okay.
So he's saying actually, whenit comes to places like Sorrento
, Sorrentino doesn't mean small,it means an inhabitant of the
place.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Okay, it seems like a diminutive, but it's not a
diminutive.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
He said it seems like it's almost like a nickname or
to make something smaller, butin this case it's actually not.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, my mother was from Puglia, Nicoletti.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
For example, nicoletti is perfect.
Why?
Let's take an example InEnglish the surname could be
only Nicol or Naikon I don'tknow Nicol While we in the
family environment, for example,a little child called Nicola,
we can call him Nicolino, or afat Nicola, we can call him
(09:24):
Nicolone.
Right, and this in patronymicfunction, which I will tell you
in a moment what it means, isfixed as a surname.
Poco vi racconterò.
Le significa si è fissato comecognome.
Perciò, per esempio, se ininglese c'è solo Andrew, che
sarebbe Andrea come cognome, initaliano me ne posso dire forse
(09:45):
20, 30.
Andre de Andres, andretta,andreotti, andreini, and so on.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Okay, aspetta.
So he was saying, how you know,he used the word Nichols or
Nicholas, really, as an example.
You know you could haveNicolone for a big kid, or
Nicolino for a small Nicholas,but it also translates into last
names.
Same thing with Andrea, andrew,you could have Andre, you could
(10:17):
have Andre, the plural couldhave de andre, you could have
andreotti, all these.
And he said he'll explain why,why there's all these different
variations italiano.
And this is the reason that onelast name, sort of like Andrews
(10:40):
in English, might have 20equivalents in Italian.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Ok, poi, un altro motivo del fatto che in italiano
abbiamo tantissimi cognomi è lacosiddetta and the so-called
linguistic frant Italian.
They're from Latin, they'vegrown up together from Latin and
(11:18):
that's why there's all thesevariations within Italy.
Bravissimo E per cui una parolalatina è stata detta
pronunciata in 20 o 30 modidiversi.
Che sono le regioni italiane.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
So some of these words that were in Latin were
actually spoken in sometimes 20different ways, depending on
where you were in Italy sayingthe same word Exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
In fact, I'll give you a practical example Pasquale
is the Italian name, then thereis also Pasquale.
I think there is also Pasqualein America.
Pasquale is Neapolitan, that is, it is to pronounce Pasquale in
Neapolitan, and so there aremany nicknames in Italy that
(12:13):
have felt the by the dialects.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So these last names exist today.
There's Pasquale, there'sPascale, there's just De
Pasquale, di Pasquale, and it'sbecause of the origin of these
dialects before the language wassort of standardized.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Un altro esempio che mi sono scritto sempre per voi,
of the origin of these dialects.
In the north it is used withthe Z, so Zanni.
In the center, gianni with theG and in the south, janni, also
with the J.
And of these three ways ofsaying it, imagine how many
surnames were born, for examplethe Annelli, the Annotti.
(13:18):
They are all, giovanni said, inthe north, in the center and
the south, in the northtraditionally it was almost with
(13:40):
a Z Giovanni, or however hesaid it Giovanni.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Giovanni, and I know like where Columbus was from.
In Genoa they used the letter Za lot, lot more In the center.
It was more of the standard G,Giovanni, Gianni.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Bravo Giannini.
For example, the surnameGiannini is from central Italy.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Okay, so the last name, Giannini, is from central
Italy and in the south it evenwas more of that Iuanne Iuanne
with that J sound, where it'salmost like a Y in English and
it goes more back to Latin Latin, where it was Ioannis I or I A
or something like that.
And so think of how many lastnames have come from that one
(14:25):
name.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So now, that's very interesting because and I'll say
why my uncle.
He didn't come from Toritountil 1950.
He was left behind when mygrandparents came, so we always
called him Uncle John, of course, in English, but my grandmother
Called him Gioan Gioan.
(14:49):
Gioan Gioan, bravo, così, FromTorito Bari.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Ah, bari, puglia, Puglia.
Ok, poi entriamo nel vivo dellaconoscenza, della formazione
dei cognomi.
Un piccolo riferimento storicoè che nell'impero romano
esistevano tre nomi peridentificare le persone.
A small historical reference isthat in the Roman Empire there
were three names to identifypeople, and there was the first
(15:19):
name, there was the first nameand then the last name.
The first name Go go go.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
So back in the days of the Roman Empire there were
three ways to sort of identify aperson.
There was the pre-nomen, whichhe said, then there's the nomen
and then the cognomen.
So I'm assuming in English thatwould be like your first name,
pre-name, maybe name, and thenit probably became last name.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
but you continue name and then it probably became
last name, but you continue,bravo.
And in fact, in french if youknow french well the name is
called pre-name okay, so if youknow french well, name is called
pre-name and say that againOkay.
(16:11):
Oh and so the word last name inFrench is just nom.
If we take the example ofJulius Caesar, that everybody
knows His name si chiamava CaioGiulio Cesare.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
His name was Caio Giulio Cesare or Gaius Julius
Caesar.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Bravi in inglese, bravissimo, Scusa, in latino
Caio Giulio Caesar.
Okay, quindi, Caio era ilnostro nome, come Rick or Bob.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
So Caio really was or Gaius was really just his name,
like you're Bob and he'sRaffaele and I'm Rich.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Julius was his family name, so like our last names
today, exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And then the surname was a nickname.
How do you cognomen?
Era un soprannome, come si dicein inglese soprannome, nickname
.
Ah, nickname Era il nickname Enon so se sapete che Cesare
significava con gli occhicelesti.
Ah, I didn't know that.
Quindi probabilmente GiulioCesare aveva gli occhi celesti.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
So he said that Caesar was more of like a
nickname and it actually meantsomeone with light blue eyes.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Wow, Bene, questo qua .
Poi che cos'è successo?
Che dopo l'impero romanol'impero romano cade e arrivano
dal nord le popolazionigermaniche.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
So, after the fall of the Roman Empire and people
from Northern Europe started tocome into, you know, Italy.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, and I don't know if you know that the
Germanic peoples used only onename to identify people.
Okay, so, the Germanic peoples,these barbarians, really, they
(18:25):
used to only use one name toidentify people Lightning, okay
bravo.
Cloud, ok bravo.
Oppure.
Nuvola, oppure come gli animali, lupo leone, eccetera.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
So he said that they used to only use words that were
more connected with nature, sothey would have names like
lightning and cloud and lion andother animal names.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Ok, quindi, siccome anche in inglese il cognome si
dice o second name o last name,che significa l'ultimo nome
giusto, Last name, L'ultimo nome, Surname.
Quindi per gli uomini delpassato l'unico vero, vero nome
(19:11):
era il nome il primo nome,giusto right?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
So back in the day he's saying more in English
again.
It was just your first name,really.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
The only true, real name that you had was just your
first name gli studiosi, appunto, dei cognomi, come dire,
considerano il cognome ilsecondo nome giusto yeah, we
consider our last.
Well, no, secondo nome, initaliano sarebbe middle name no,
(19:44):
no, il nome che viene dopo ilfirst name.
Oh, you're talking l'ordine?
Speaker 3 (19:50):
the order esatto, bravo.
Oh si, si, si, we say our lastname, second, ok.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Oppure anche lo chiamano I linguisti, nome
aggiunto.
Come possiamo dire in inglese?
An added name, an added nameEsatto.
Esatto Perché, ripeto il nomeera la cosa più importante.
Pensate che nei registri che ioe mio figlio Simone consultiamo
del 600, think about it in therecords that my son and I
consult from the 1600s and 1700s.
This is a very good news.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
the records with all the names of the people are
listed by name, not by surnameyears ago that the first name
was really the important nameand that afterwards these last
names were added on.
They were like a second name oran added name.
So he said imagine when he andhis son are doing the research
(20:42):
from a book from the 1600s andthey're looking through an index
, they're not alphabetized bylast names but alphabetized by
the person's first name.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yes, I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I've seen that, yeah.
So for example, for BobSorrentino in the register we
have to go with the B, not the S.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
But Bob is a nickname .
You know, bob is a nickname,right?
No, bob is a nickname forRoberto.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Then let's do Robert Sorrentino.
So if there was a RobertSorrentino in the 1600s instead
of in the, instead of with thes's so.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
So I have a question I'm going to put in the chat.
I'm going to put in the chat mygreat grandmother's names on
her birth record.
She was, was, from.
She was Coatulo de Tokirolo andthis is her names on her birth
certificate.
If he looks in the chatLutgaard, what is that?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I don't understand Rick.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
This is.
Who is this Bob?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Your great-grandmother's birth
certificate, my great-grandgrandmother's birth certificate.
She was from a noble family,caracciolo, okay.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Caracciolo è una famiglia nobile.
He just said okay, sua bisnonna, la bisnonna di Bob, come ha
detto, era da una famiglianobile E sul lato di nascita,
those names, tutti quei nomithat's c'erano scritti sul cerca
so the question is why did theyhave all those names?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
So it's quite easy, because when you married a
husband and wife of differentfamilies, it was important to
keep the name or the last name,the importance and the honor of
the noble families.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
He said it was important to keep the names of
these noble families, you know,because they were just important
names and the honor of havingthat last name.
So these kids had so many namesbecause they just kept adding
on all these different lineswhen the royalty or nobles
(23:50):
married each other.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So he said back in the.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Middle Ages there was this huge population growth.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Okay.
So he said, you know, duringthis period, to think about it,
in a little town, in a littlevillage you might have had so
many Giovanni's, all theseJohn's.
This is when they of courseadded these names to distinguish
all the people.
So really, last names sort ofexploded in popularity in the
Middle Ages because of thepopulation growth.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Esatto, quindi, per questo motivo si dovette
aggiungere è vero, rick.
Quindi, addenditi, they had toadd on.
Esatto, aggiungere un altronome oltre al nome di battesimo
per identificare la persona.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Had to add on another name other than your given name
at baptism, basically yourfirst name to identify all these
people.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
And so here comes the best part.
Here's the best part.
For us linguistics enthusiasts,let's derive this second name
from four different sources.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Ok, so you can really trace the origin of all these
second names, which became lastnames, from four different
things.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So now I'll tell you all four together, and then
we'll talk about them one at atime.
Four different things, quindiadesso ve li dico tutti e
quattro insieme, e poi neparliamo uno alla volta.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Okay, so he's going to tell us those four things now
, and then he'll talk about eachone.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Okay, il primo è il patronimico o il matronimico.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
So the first one is basically the name that you got
from a mother or a father, right?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Il secondo è il toponimo.
Rick sai, il toponimo è il nomedi un luogo.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Okay, so then there's the toponico, which I'm not
sure how to say that exactly inEnglish, but it's a place name.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
So a geographical origin.
Bravo, Terzo il mestiere svoltodalla persona.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Third would be like a profession or a job title Okay.
The fourth would be just anickname, so some sort of
adjective about that person.
Hi everyone, this is Bob Sorrentino, from Italian
Roots and Genealogy.
Be sure to check out our blogand our YouTube and our
newsletter and our greatsponsors, your Dolce Vita Italy,
rooting Phil Italy andAbbiative Casa.
And today I have a great guest,raffaele Fontanella, who's
written a book about our Italiansurnames and and the origin of
(00:38):
those, and a good friend of hisand mine, rich De Palma, who's
going to translate for us.
So welcome guys.
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Grazie, buona sera.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
So Rich.
Why don't you give a littlebrief history of yourself, and
then you could ask Rafael to dothe same?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Okay, I'm Rich De Palma.
I'm an eighth grade Italianteacher in Connecticut and I met
Raffaele, though we haven't metin person yet.
I hope to meet him somedaybecause my dad's family is from
Castella Mare di Stabia, rightoutside of Naples and near
Pompeii that area of Italy andit was the only part of my
(01:22):
family tree I never had any luckresearching and I hired
Raffaele and he and his sonSimone.
They figured out the problem.
The problem was that before mygreat-grandfather, all of his
ancestors were actually fromAbruzzo and they sometime moved
to Castellammare, probably forthe shipbuilding between 1875
(01:46):
and 1879.
And ever since then, raffaeletook the tree back like 200
years earlier.
It was a phenomenal experience.
Hai capito.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Raffaele.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Tutto.
Ho capito Una presentazione dite stesso.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Ah ok, grazie.
La prima cosa è che sono molto,molto contento di stare qui con
voi.
A presentation of yourself Ahok, thank you.
The first thing is that I amvery happy to be here with you.
The second thing is that itseems to me a duty to thank both
Bob Sorrentino for thehospitality and, clearly, my
friend Rick Di Palma for thetradition.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Ok, first things.
First, he's extremely happy tobe here, and the second is he
wants to thank you, bob, forhaving him here, and he's happy
to also be in touch with me toofor the first time, sort of.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I am a professor of economics and then I am also a
graphic designer.
I have been studying graphicsfor almost 40 years, but I have
always been passionate aboutlinguistics, that is,
understanding what words are,where they come from or the ways
(02:57):
of saying economics and he alsois a graphic designer.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
He's done all of this for about 40 years, but he's
also had a great great.
He's always been verypassionate about languages in
general, linguistica andespecially like the roots of
words, the etymology of words,and I think that's where this
basis of all these surnamescomes into E infatti, tra le
(03:33):
parole, l'etimologia delleparole, un interesse particolare
per I cognomi.
Okay, in addition to just theorigin of words, specifically
last names too.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Exactly, and in fact I remember as a boy, as a child,
that when I heard my last nameI said but why do I have that
last name?
Or rather, what did that lastname mean?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
And then, little by by little, I did these
researches so much so that Iwrote a nice book on the origin
of surnames.
Do I have that name?
And then, a little by little,you know, he just was interested
(04:25):
more and more in the origin oflast names, and that's when he
decided to create this bookitaliano.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
da un record italiano , l'italia in tutto il mondo ha
il maggior numero di cognomirispetto agli altri stati.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Okay, so he wants to tell us a little bit about last
names in general, specificallyItalian.
He said that Italians actually,as an ethnic group, have more
last names than any group reallyin the whole world world
300,000 300,000 over 300,000 Ifwe compare it with China, which
(05:12):
we know is big and we know thatit has about a billion people,
and instead Italy has 60 millionpeople.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
We would expect China to have many nicknames.
Instead, China has only 7,000,7,000, while Italy, as Bob said,
350,000.
Mentre l'Italia, come ha dettoBob, 350.000 cognomi.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Okay, so it says.
He says, if we were to compareas a group, italy and China,
which we know has more than abillion people, only Italy 60
million, he said, in Chinathere's only 7,000 last names,
where in Italy, like you saidBob, you said what?
(06:09):
300,000?
Speaker 2 (06:14):
That's just amazing and I'll ask you this question,
but I'll answer it.
The question is this why doesItaly have all these last names?
And the answer is this is thatwe have, we Italians, but I also
hope you call it Italy.
We have a wonderful languagethat, to make some concepts,
(06:38):
uses prefixes and suffixes.
Bob translate.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Wait, so why?
The question is why do we haveso many last names?
And he said he wants to answer?
Is we have such a beautiful, awonderful language that to
express some of these concepts,Italians use so many suffixes
and prefixes and variations ofjust one simple word.
(07:05):
Sometimes that translates intoalso a lot of different last
names.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Bravo.
Infatti tu prima hai detto cheil mio cognome si poteva
tradurre come Little Fountain,mentre la parola in italiano è
fontana e noi possiamo fare peresempio l'accrescitivo dicendo
fontanone, oppure una piccolafontana, fontanina o fontanaccia
(07:32):
o fontanella.
Avete visto quanti cognomipartendo solo da fontana,
fontanina o fontanaccia ofontanella?
Avete visto quanti cognomipartendo solo da fontana?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
So he said, just like the last name, the word fontana
is fountain.
So if you had like a badfountain, it'd be fontanaccia.
If you had a big fountain,fontanone.
If you have a little fountain,fontanina, a cute, adorable
fountain, fontanella E Raffaele,se posso aggiungere.
If I'd like to add also Bob,your last name is a diminutive,
(08:04):
sorrentino, right?
No?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
no, no, Never mind, I'm wrong.
No, perché in italiano la partefinale inno rappresenta
l'ettrico, cioè abitante diSorrento.
Ah, capito, See etymical, thatis the inhabitant of Sorrento,
oh.
I see, I learned today I'velearned Okay, okay, okay, like
the termination in ano, likeNapoletano, so the inhabitant of
(08:30):
Naples.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Okay.
So he's saying actually, whenit comes to places like Sorrento
, Sorrentino doesn't mean small,it means an inhabitant of the
place.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Okay, it seems like a diminutive, but it's not a
diminutive.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
He said it seems like it's almost like a nickname or
to make something smaller, butin this case it's actually not.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well, my mother was from Puglia, Nicoletti.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
For example, nicoletti is perfect.
Why?
Let's take an example InEnglish the surname could be
only Nicol or Naikon I don'tknow Nicol While we in the
family environment, for example,a little child called Nicola,
we can call him Nicolino, or afat Nicola, we can call him
(09:24):
Nicolone.
Right, and this in patronymicfunction, which I will tell you
in a moment what it means, isfixed as a surname.
Poco vi racconterò.
Le significa si è fissato comecognome.
Perciò, per esempio, se ininglese c'è solo Andrew, che
sarebbe Andrea come cognome, initaliano me ne posso dire forse
(09:45):
20, 30.
Andre de Andres, andretta,andreotti, andreini, and so on.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Okay, aspetta.
So he was saying, how you know,he used the word Nichols or
Nicholas, really, as an example.
You know you could haveNicolone for a big kid, or
Nicolino for a small Nicholas,but it also translates into last
names.
Same thing with Andrea, andrew,you could have Andre, you could
(10:17):
have Andre, the plural couldhave de andre, you could have
andreotti, all these.
And he said he'll explain why,why there's all these different
variations italiano.
And this is the reason that onelast name, sort of like Andrews
(10:40):
in English, might have 20equivalents in Italian.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Ok, poi, un altro motivo del fatto che in italiano
abbiamo tantissimi cognomi è lacosiddetta and the so-called
linguistic frant Italian.
They're from Latin, they'vegrown up together from Latin and
(11:18):
that's why there's all thesevariations within Italy.
Bravissimo E per cui una parolalatina è stata detta
pronunciata in 20 o 30 modidiversi.
Che sono le regioni italiane.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
So some of these words that were in Latin were
actually spoken in sometimes 20different ways, depending on
where you were in Italy sayingthe same word Exactly.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
In fact, I'll give you a practical example Pasquale
is the Italian name, then thereis also Pasquale.
I think there is also Pasqualein America.
Pasquale is Neapolitan, that is, it is to pronounce Pasquale in
Neapolitan, and so there aremany nicknames in Italy that
(12:13):
have felt the by the dialects.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So these last names exist today.
There's Pasquale, there'sPascale, there's just De
Pasquale, di Pasquale, and it'sbecause of the origin of these
dialects before the language wassort of standardized.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Un altro esempio che mi sono scritto sempre per voi,
of the origin of these dialects.
In the north it is used withthe Z, so Zanni.
In the center, gianni with theG and in the south, janni, also
with the J.
And of these three ways ofsaying it, imagine how many
surnames were born, for examplethe Annelli, the Annotti.
(13:18):
They are all, giovanni said, inthe north, in the center and
the south, in the northtraditionally it was almost with
(13:40):
a Z Giovanni, or however hesaid it Giovanni.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Giovanni, and I know like where Columbus was from.
In Genoa they used the letter Za lot, lot more In the center.
It was more of the standard G,Giovanni, Gianni.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Bravo Giannini.
For example, the surnameGiannini is from central Italy.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Okay, so the last name, Giannini, is from central
Italy and in the south it evenwas more of that Iuanne Iuanne
with that J sound, where it'salmost like a Y in English and
it goes more back to Latin Latin, where it was Ioannis I or I A
or something like that.
And so think of how many lastnames have come from that one
(14:25):
name.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So now, that's very interesting because and I'll say
why my uncle.
He didn't come from Toritountil 1950.
He was left behind when mygrandparents came, so we always
called him Uncle John, of course, in English, but my grandmother
Called him Gioan Gioan.
(14:49):
Gioan Gioan, bravo, così, FromTorito Bari.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Ah, bari, puglia, Puglia.
Ok, poi entriamo nel vivo dellaconoscenza, della formazione
dei cognomi.
Un piccolo riferimento storicoè che nell'impero romano
esistevano tre nomi peridentificare le persone.
A small historical reference isthat in the Roman Empire there
were three names to identifypeople, and there was the first
(15:19):
name, there was the first nameand then the last name.
The first name Go go go.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
So back in the days of the Roman Empire there were
three ways to sort of identify aperson.
There was the pre-nomen, whichhe said, then there's the nomen
and then the cognomen.
So I'm assuming in English thatwould be like your first name,
pre-name, maybe name, and thenit probably became last name.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
but you continue name and then it probably became
last name, but you continue,bravo.
And in fact, in french if youknow french well the name is
called pre-name okay, so if youknow french well, name is called
pre-name and say that againOkay.
(16:11):
Oh and so the word last name inFrench is just nom.
If we take the example ofJulius Caesar, that everybody
knows His name si chiamava CaioGiulio Cesare.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
His name was Caio Giulio Cesare or Gaius Julius
Caesar.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Bravi in inglese, bravissimo, Scusa, in latino
Caio Giulio Caesar.
Okay, quindi, Caio era ilnostro nome, come Rick or Bob.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
So Caio really was or Gaius was really just his name,
like you're Bob and he'sRaffaele and I'm Rich.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Julius was his family name, so like our last names
today, exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
And then the surname was a nickname.
How do you cognomen?
Era un soprannome, come si dicein inglese soprannome, nickname
.
Ah, nickname Era il nickname Enon so se sapete che Cesare
significava con gli occhicelesti.
Ah, I didn't know that.
Quindi probabilmente GiulioCesare aveva gli occhi celesti.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
So he said that Caesar was more of like a
nickname and it actually meantsomeone with light blue eyes.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Wow, Bene, questo qua .
Poi che cos'è successo?
Che dopo l'impero romanol'impero romano cade e arrivano
dal nord le popolazionigermaniche.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
So, after the fall of the Roman Empire and people
from Northern Europe started tocome into, you know, Italy.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Okay, and I don't know if you know that the
Germanic peoples used only onename to identify people.
Okay, so, the Germanic peoples,these barbarians, really, they
(18:25):
used to only use one name toidentify people Lightning, okay
bravo.
Cloud, ok bravo.
Oppure.
Nuvola, oppure come gli animali, lupo leone, eccetera.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
So he said that they used to only use words that were
more connected with nature, sothey would have names like
lightning and cloud and lion andother animal names.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Ok, quindi, siccome anche in inglese il cognome si
dice o second name o last name,che significa l'ultimo nome
giusto, Last name, L'ultimo nome, Surname.
Quindi per gli uomini delpassato l'unico vero, vero nome
(19:11):
era il nome il primo nome,giusto right?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
So back in the day he's saying more in English
again.
It was just your first name,really.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
The only true, real name that you had was just your
first name gli studiosi, appunto, dei cognomi, come dire,
considerano il cognome ilsecondo nome giusto yeah, we
consider our last.
Well, no, secondo nome, initaliano sarebbe middle name no,
(19:44):
no, il nome che viene dopo ilfirst name.
Oh, you're talking l'ordine?
Speaker 3 (19:50):
the order esatto, bravo.
Oh si, si, si, we say our lastname, second, ok.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Oppure anche lo chiamano I linguisti, nome
aggiunto.
Come possiamo dire in inglese?
An added name, an added nameEsatto.
Esatto Perché, ripeto il nomeera la cosa più importante.
Pensate che nei registri che ioe mio figlio Simone consultiamo
del 600, think about it in therecords that my son and I
consult from the 1600s and 1700s.
This is a very good news.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
the records with all the names of the people are
listed by name, not by surnameyears ago that the first name
was really the important nameand that afterwards these last
names were added on.
They were like a second name oran added name.
So he said imagine when he andhis son are doing the research
(20:42):
from a book from the 1600s andthey're looking through an index
, they're not alphabetized bylast names but alphabetized by
the person's first name.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Yes, I've seen that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I've seen that, yeah.
So for example, for BobSorrentino in the register we
have to go with the B, not the S.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
But Bob is a nickname .
You know, bob is a nickname,right?
No, bob is a nickname forRoberto.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Then let's do Robert Sorrentino.
So if there was a RobertSorrentino in the 1600s instead
of in the, instead of with thes's so.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
So I have a question I'm going to put in the chat.
I'm going to put in the chat mygreat grandmother's names on
her birth record.
She was, was, from.
She was Coatulo de Tokirolo andthis is her names on her birth
certificate.
If he looks in the chatLutgaard, what is that?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I don't understand Rick.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
This is.
Who is this Bob?
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Your great-grandmother's birth
certificate, my great-grandgrandmother's birth certificate.
She was from a noble family,caracciolo, okay.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
Caracciolo è una famiglia nobile.
He just said okay, sua bisnonna, la bisnonna di Bob, come ha
detto, era da una famiglianobile E sul lato di nascita,
those names, tutti quei nomithat's c'erano scritti sul cerca
so the question is why did theyhave all those names?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
So it's quite easy, because when you married a
husband and wife of differentfamilies, it was important to
keep the name or the last name,the importance and the honor of
the noble families.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
He said it was important to keep the names of
these noble families, you know,because they were just important
names and the honor of havingthat last name.
So these kids had so many namesbecause they just kept adding
on all these different lineswhen the royalty or nobles
(23:50):
married each other.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So he said back in the.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Middle Ages there was this huge population growth.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Okay.
So he said, you know, duringthis period, to think about it,
in a little town, in a littlevillage you might have had so
many Giovanni's, all theseJohn's.
This is when they of courseadded these names to distinguish
all the people.
So really, last names sort ofexploded in popularity in the
Middle Ages because of thepopulation growth.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Esatto, quindi, per questo motivo si dovette
aggiungere è vero, rick.
Quindi, addenditi, they had toadd on.
Esatto, aggiungere un altronome oltre al nome di battesimo
per identificare la persona.
Speaker 3 (24:59):
Had to add on another name other than your given name
at baptism, basically yourfirst name to identify all these
people.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
And so here comes the best part.
Here's the best part.
For us linguistics enthusiasts,let's derive this second name
from four different sources.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Ok, so you can really trace the origin of all these
second names, which became lastnames, from four different
things.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So now I'll tell you all four together, and then
we'll talk about them one at atime.
Four different things, quindiadesso ve li dico tutti e
quattro insieme, e poi neparliamo uno alla volta.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Okay, so he's going to tell us those four things now
, and then he'll talk about eachone.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Okay, il primo è il patronimico o il matronimico.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
So the first one is basically the name that you got
from a mother or a father, right?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Il secondo è il toponimo.
Rick sai, il toponimo è il nomedi un luogo.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Okay, so then there's the toponico, which I'm not
sure how to say that exactly inEnglish, but it's a place name.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
So a geographical origin.
Bravo, Terzo il mestiere svoltodalla persona.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Third would be like a profession or a job title Okay.
The fourth would be just anickname, so some sort of
adjective about that person.
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com