December 15, 2025 • 43 mins
Ever wondered why the people who care the most at work often get punished for it? We sit down with TV veteran and coach Andy Regal to unpack the anatomy of workplace bullying—from the subtle eye roll that chips at belonging to the brazen public barb that marks someone for ridicule. Andy draws on 25 years in high-pressure media and dozens of expert interviews to show how repeated, targeted behaviors with no benefit to the employee or the business slowly dismantle confidence, performance, and joy.
We talk about why top performers and team-first contributors are frequently singled out, how mobbing forms when a leader signals someone is fair game, and the difference between tough management and bullying. You’ll hear candid stories of micromanagement, sarcasm in front of clients, and that stomach-dropping “the boss wants a word” summons—and how those moments spiral into anxiety, hypervigilance, and self-blame. Just as important, we map a way out: psychological safety rituals, boundary scripts, positive self-talk to quiet the inner critic, and small wins that restore identity when a toxic boss tries to define you.
For leaders, we dig into the real costs of incivility—lost focus, turnover, rehiring, and the corrosive impact of “brilliant jerks.” We make the case for codifying respectful conduct with real consequences, the limits of HR when power is involved, and practical steps to build cultures where apologies are modeled and people can make mistakes without fear. If you’ve cried on the commute, dreaded a “quick chat,” or felt your light dim at work, this conversation offers language, strategy, and hope.
Subscribe for more conversations that protect your well-being and your work. If this helped, share it with a friend and leave a review—what tool will you try this week?
To reach Andy Regal:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/noworkbullies
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyregal-nwb/
Substack: https://substack.com/@aregalmedia
Website: http://bit.ly/4hBAJIV
Be sure to visit my youtube channel, like and subscribe: It's All About Healing Podcast - YouTube
Website: https://www.itsallabouthealingpodcast.com
If you're ready to talk, we're ready to listen!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome back, listeners.
I'm Robin Black, and this isIt's All About Healing Podcast.
Today I want to speak.
We're going to speak aboutsurviving bullying in the
workplace.
And we have a special guest withus today, Mr.
Andrew Regal.
Andrew, just take a moment tointroduce yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Sure, uh, Robin, pleased to be with you.
Please call me Andy if you like.
That's fine.
I go by Andrew or Andy.
Andy's fine.
I spent 25 years in television,television and video production
in New York, mostly livetelevision.
And as I was kind of lookingback on my career, I started
writing a book during COVID.
(00:37):
And what I found was there was athrough line of workplace
incivility and degradation,workplace bullying.
But I didn't, I never realizedit was that.
I thought that thismismanagement, mean spirited
behavior was a part of being inlive television.
It's just that's television.
And I started doing research onthe book, and I found that this
(01:01):
kind of thing happens to reallygood employees in every
industry, every industrypossible.
And so that's when I reallybecame kind of interested in
this overall topic, not just howit affected me, but how it
affects tens of millions ofreally good people and great
workers across this country.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay, so tell us a little bit on your story and
what you've experiencedbully-wise in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Yeah, what I would suggest is that I was
hardworking, devoted, loyal, andproductive.
That's the way I do things.
And as I've studied the issue,that's what I found with people
throughout industries, that thepeople that get bullied are the
best of employees, not theworst.
And in in my work on this issue,we're not talking about people
(01:51):
that show up late or that areapathetic or don't do
assignments.
Those people probably don't careif they're bullied.
And so, in my experience, whatI've found is that the best
employees get bullied becausefor some reason, and we can talk
about this later, for somereason, it's the good employees,
the team players who get bulliedbecause the managers,
(02:14):
supervisors, and bosses, forsome reason, it bothers them
that they're really good people.
And those are the people, thepeople that care the most.
And I think I know I was one ofthose people.
And I experienced it in almostevery job I had, where I was
doing great work and I did getpromoted and I was paid, and I
appreciated that.
(02:36):
But the incivility, themean-spiritedness, the threats
affected my physical andemotional well-being such that I
had high anxiety,hypervigilance, I had difficulty
keeping down food, and I hadharmful thoughts because I had
this somewhat naive notion, andwe can talk about self-blame as
it pertains to bullying, but Ihad this notion that if I'm a
(02:59):
good person, I work hard, I do agreat job, that it's going to
come back to me, not just interms of having the job, but
being appreciated.
I think we all want to beappreciated.
Instead, you feel like you don'tmatter.
And mattering is a big topic inthe workplaces these days.
And I felt like the boss made mefeel like I didn't matter.
And in some circumstances, theboss made me feel like they were
(03:23):
out to get me, even though I wasdoing good work.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Absolutely.
I oh my gosh, I know thatfeeling all too well, Andy.
So tell me a little, a littlebit more about how you said it
made you want to self-harm.
Why do you feel that it made youthat way?
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate the question,Robin.
It's because you lose allself-worth.
Nobody has more power.
Well, I shouldn't say no one,but very few people has have as
much power over you as a bossdoes.
In fact, I did a television showyears ago with a sheriff down in
North Carolina.
And the sheriff, when I observedhim with his inmates, had so
(04:05):
much power over the inmates,right?
I mean, they they didn't havefreedom.
And he controlled every movementwhen they ate, when they slept,
when they got out of theircells.
And I look at bosses, they haveso much influence over us, over
our paycheck, our ability tosupport our families, our
self-esteem, our self-worth, ourfutures, our popularity in the
(04:26):
workplace.
So it's for that reason thatwhen we feel like we're doing
all the right things and we'relooking almost at a boss like a
parent, you know, where theycontrol your well-being, it
really affects us such to theextent that I lost so much of my
self-esteem and self-worth thatI started, I and by the way, I
never tried to harm myself.
(04:48):
I don't want to over-dramatizethis, but I had very depressing
thoughts about myself because Iblame myself.
I kept saying, What is it aboutme that's doing this?
What is it about me that'scausing the boss to treat me
this way?
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
And you know what, Andy, is I I think a lot of us
feel that way because weinternalize so many things.
And then it's like you get towork, you're kind of you become
in this mindset where you'rejust kind of on autopilot
because you're internalizingthese thoughts.
You're thinking, oh, they're outto get me.
I'm walking on eggshells, you'refeeling like this every single
(05:23):
day.
And then it's like you becomecomfortable being uncomfortable
because it's just something thatyou're used to.
So a lot of people aren'trealizing that that those are
the feelings that they'reinternalizing.
It's not normal, even though itseems like society has
normalized having this feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
So well said.
I mean, one of the first thingsI talk about with my coaching
clients who are working to getover this trauma, and that's
what it is, it's trauma, ispsychological safety.
Number one.
Psychological safety meaningwhen we're at work, we don't
feel safe.
At any moment, we could get atext, an email, not as often
(06:01):
these days, phone call, butphone call, or be called to a
meeting, or be called to theboss's office.
I remember one of the worstthings that could happen to me
from one of the worst bullybosses was when his executive
assistant would call me and saythe boss would like a word, you
know, a word with you.
And that and then you had thiskind of dead man walking kind of
(06:23):
feel, you know, and you couldn'tfathom what you did wrong, but
the scorn was going to come.
It was going to come.
And so these things are just sodebilitating, Robin, as you
know.
And I'm here to say we don'tdeserve it.
Nobody's ever asked to bemistreated in the workplace.
And by the way, if somebody is asubpower employee, it's your job
(06:46):
as a manager to make them betteror ask them to leave.
It's time to leave.
And you can do that also withsome empathy, right?
But nobody deserves to betreated in a hostile manner.
And that's what I'm out to do tobring awareness to this issue
and create change.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
And I I love that.
So, what's the name of yourcoaching business?
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
So, my overall business is called surviving
bully culture.
Okay.
I also have a Facebook group,which I encourage people to
join.
It's on Facebook, it's calledcalled Navigating Workplace
Bullying, which is for any kindof any victim who is looking for
resources and looking for acommunity.
We have 500 people, all of whomhave been bullied and are
(07:30):
looking for community andcompassion and resources.
So my coaching business issimply that people reach out to
me because they're trying tocope with and heal from this
experience.
And I guess if I had to give aname to my coaching business, it
is you are not alone.
(07:50):
Because when you're beingbullied, Robin, and I think you
probably experienced thisyourself.
And I was just at a conferencedown in Washington this week,
and there were a number ofvictims there, all of whom the
theme was they felt so alonebecause your family can't really
help you.
Your friends can't help your.
(08:11):
They could all be a little bitof help.
Your minister, maybe, maybe not,you know, but ultimately it's
just you.
Your colleagues can't reallyhelp you.
They may be getting bullied too.
You're on your own.
And again, we started talkingabout this notion of
psychological safety.
The first thing I do when I workwith bullying victims is we work
on psychological safety to say,look, I understand what you've
(08:33):
been through.
I've been through it.
We have to start working onfeeling safe, despite what the
bully's doing.
Doesn't mean I can't guaranteeyou're not going to lose your
job, but I can help people beginto feel safer in their own skin.
Because we can't change thebehavior of the bully.
There's nothing much we can do.
(08:53):
Now, if something happens, thebully changes their own
behavior, that's great.
But I'm not aware of any formulafor saying in every situation,
this is how you change thebehavior of your bully.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
And see, I think what I'm realizing though is I
feel like all theprofessionalism and
confidentiality and workplaceshas completely disappeared.
Um, because what I'veexperienced is it almost seems
as though it's like some of thebosses could be like a part of
like this mob mentality.
(09:28):
It's like once you're in there,if one person doesn't like you,
whether it's an uppermanagement, whether it's just,
you know, an employee, itdoesn't matter.
It's like once they form thatclick, if you're not a part of
that click, now it's like youhave all these clicks that
you're trying to feel accepted,you know.
(09:49):
And it's like if you, like yousaid, if you're a great
employee, you do the rightthing.
You're, you know, you don't needvalidation, you're not seeking
these things.
So you're just out there to doyour job on your own.
Now you're not a part of it.
Now everyone's looking at you,and now they all have daggers
because they're like, we, she'sdifferent, he's different.
I don't like it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Yeah.
Well, you mentioned severalgreat points there.
Let me see if I can address eachone.
First of all, a feeling ofbelonging is inherent in the
human condition, right?
It's one of the things we getfrom being at work.
Now, we may not like being atwork as much as we'd like to be
home with our family and friendswho love us, but there is a
(10:31):
benefit to working collectivelyand a feeling of belonging.
And when you have that, whenthat's important to you, and
then it's thrust from you andtaken away from you, it is
absolutely destructive in everyway.
And it happened to me.
I worked at a place, a big mediaorganization, and they kept
(10:54):
saying to me, Oh, you know, yourteam makes needs to make more
money.
And I was like, Well, I needhelp from the business side.
I'm a journalist, I'm aproducer, I know how to make
money with the video that we'reproducing, but I need help.
And I feel, in my opinion, and Ican back this up, I was
(11:16):
scapegoated.
And this is what happens aperson is identified as the
problem, whether they are oraren't.
And in my case, I don't believeI was.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
And then there's somebody on the other side who
decides they're gonna come afteryou for that.
And when everybody starts to seethat you're the target, they
start avoiding you.
And that's when you use the terma group mentality, what we call
in this work mobbing.
Mobbing is when more than oneperson is bullying you.
(11:46):
Now, one person, the main personmight be a boss or supervisor,
but then other people below thatperson kind of get involved
because why?
One person's demise in adysfunctional environment, one
person's demise is anotherperson's benefit.
And so then a turf work takesplace, and they almost you know
cannibalize, they eat thevictim, and then they all try to
(12:10):
rise from there.
So being ostracized, being takenaway from the team, which
happened in my case.
I also had another situationwhere the same kind of thing.
In this case, the company wasbeing sold, but and I wasn't
going to continue, and you'rejust sitting there in your
office with nothing to do.
You no longer are part of theteam.
(12:32):
It's awful.
You're not you're not beingasked for your help anymore,
you're not asked for yourguidance.
You think you have a lot tooffer.
Now no one's talking to you.
And by the way, people know apariah when they see one.
They know that if the top brasshas identified this person as
the the fault, you know, thereason something's going wrong,
(12:54):
even if it's not their fault atall, people know that they can
sense it, and they start stayingaway from that person.
So that I think, and we and I'llsay one other thing real quick,
if you don't mind, which isthere's all kinds of levels of
bullying and workplaceincivility.
We start out on one side withmaybe a boss rolling their eyes
(13:16):
at something you say orinterrupting you every time you
say something.
That's one side.
Then there's sarcastic comments,which also suggests that the
person is worthy of ridicule.
That's happened to me as well.
And then there's the reallyterrible stuff, the yelling, the
screaming, and the targetingwhere you're ostracized.
(13:37):
I think that's the most painfulwhen you're taken out from the
team and identified as somebodywho's less than.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Right.
And I I also kind of want to addto that is it seems now,
nowadays in a lot of workplaces,it just becomes more and more
significant.
But there's zero support.
There's almost zero training, asthough it's like a psychological
warfare.
So if you don't get the amount,the proper amount of training,
(14:06):
it's like they deliberately areout to make you feel stupid, you
know, to kind of mess with yourmind, to kind of put you in that
state of being of feeling like,oh my gosh, if I don't get this,
I'm gonna be fired if I don't,you know what I mean?
So it's what is what are youwhat are your suggestions and
what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Yeah, uh it can happen in any situation.
As I said, it happens in everyindustry.
And the reason I'm so interestedin this topic is because I was
senior management, it happenedto me.
It can happen at any level, itcan happen in to anybody, any
race, any gender, any sexuallife.
It happens to all of us.
And in fact, um, in anunofficial survey, and we talked
(14:47):
about this before we came onair, I have about a 98% response
rate when I say to people theyfind out what I do, and my books
come out, and I'll ask them, Isay, Have you ever been bullied?
And they're like, let me tellyou what happened to me.
About 98% of people tell me, andagain, some are severe cases,
some not so severe, but they allfelt like they were mistreated
(15:09):
and didn't deserve thattreatment.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:11):
And so what I try to do, because again, we can't stop
it from happening necessarily.
I work with people on notallowing the bully boss to
overwhelm you and your life.
I believe, and in fact, I devoteand dedicate my book dedicate my
(15:32):
book to those that shed theirlight on others.
I believe in that.
That that those of us that givesomething smile when you meet
people, and you have a beautifulsmile if you don't mind me
saying so.
That has an impact, right?
And the work you're doing hasimpact.
And and what bully bosses do, inmy view, is they darken
(15:54):
everybody, they they darken ourlight.
Yes, they keep us from beingable to shed our light because
we're just like so overwhelmedand overwrought by virtue of the
abuse, which it is.
Now, again, it's it's I'm notsuggesting it's nobody threw a
stapler at me, right?
I wasn't bleeding.
That's not the kind of thingwe're talking about.
This is also not sexualharassment.
(16:16):
And maybe, Robin, this is a goodtime for me to kind of define
what I see, and there's a numberof good definitions, what I
define as bullying.
Because look, I was a bossmyself for most of my career.
I was an executive producer at33.
And so I manage teams of 50 andmore across the world.
I had teams in Hong Kong,London, San Francisco,
(16:36):
Washington, D.C., and New York.
Um, we all have bad days, we allget hangry, yeah, blood sugar.
I'm not expecting bosses to beperfect, and and bully bosses
aren't bullies all the time.
Um, but for me, the definitionis repeated, targeted behaviors
(16:58):
that have no benefit to theemployee or the organization.
But we're also not talking abouttough love, right?
This is not where the boss getskind of annoyed with me or
irritated with me, but thenliterally or figuratively puts
their arm around me and says,Andy, you're a key member of
this team.
I love having you on the team.
I know you can do better.
(17:20):
That's not bullying.
Now, there may be better ways tohandle it, but if the employee
feels like the boss has theirbest interests at heart, that's
generally not bullying.
It's when we lose psychologicalsafety and we feel like they're
out to get us, right?
That that they want to harm us,they want to damage us, they
want to hurt our careers, andit's not warranted in any way.
(17:43):
It never is, but I'm sayingyou're doing good work and
you're still experiencing that.
To me, that's bullying.
Now, we can all work on beingbetter bosses.
I certainly pounded some tables,I interrupted people, and I
needed to be a better managerand better boss.
But the difference is when I gotangry, and and maybe unjustly
(18:05):
so, either later that day orcertainly the next day, I came
back and said, Hey, my bad.
I'm so sorry.
This was an issue.
I should, I should have handledit better.
Let's let's talk today and makeit right and move on together.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Bosses don't do that.
Robin, I had a boss, I workedfor seven, eight years, did
great things, never once got athank you, and got all kinds of
threats and scorn, and if I eversee this again, kind of stuff.
And and and bully bosses don'tapologize and they don't they
don't acknowledge their ownmistakes.
And it's one of the best thingsyou can do as a manager.
(18:40):
Acknowledge your own mistakes toyour team so that they know they
can make mistakes withoutretribution.
So that's my definition.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
And Andy, what do you feel?
A lot of like I know you may notfully obviously understand the
thought process, but what areyour thoughts on the fear
tactic?
Why is it that so many bossesuse that?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Right.
Something else that I work withmy clients on, it's them, not
you.
They have a problem.
Yeah, they're fearful, they'reangry about something.
And again, I don't spend a lotof time trying to diagnose bully
bosses, whether they had a badmother, bad father, had a bad,
had a you know, woke up and hada fight with their partner.
(19:27):
It you know, it doesn't reallymatter to those of us who have
been victimized.
But yeah, that's part of thehealing and coping, is it's
them.
Now, if if if you're a screw up,that's a different conversation.
Is this yeah?
But if if and it it's amazing tome, and I appreciate the the
humor in it because it is everyperson I coach, I say to myself
(19:50):
when I meet them and start workwith them, I can't believe this
person got bullied.
Now, again, I'm not there andI'm not trying to do
investigation on what exactly isgoing on, but these are.
Good, warm, smart, hardworkingpeople from every indication.
And so what I say to them isagain, it's the boss, it's it's
their problem, his or herproblem, their problem.
(20:13):
They have an issue, they'reworried about the future of the
company, or they're having theirown issues with anger
management, whatever it is.
But it's really not you.
It feels like you.
And it and believe me, I've I'velived it.
It's lived experience in mycase.
But that's what we start to workon is understanding that you
have your own universe, you canonly do what you can, and you
(20:36):
have to let the bully be.
And you need to work on yourselfso that you don't let them, as
we talked about earlier, turnoff the light that shines in all
of us.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Absolutely.
And a lot of times it seemsthough some people feel that
their voices just aren't beingheard because their boss may
feel intimidated by them alsobecause they know, wow, this
person may be more qualifiedthan me.
So let me try to kind of shutthem down mentally so that they
don't thrive the way that theyreally can thrive.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Let me give you a perfect example of what you're
talking about.
I had a bully boss.
As I said, I had him in almostevery job I had.
A bully boss, I had a greatboss, he got let go, fired.
My new boss was 10 years myjunior, which I was fine with
that, but he didn't have theexperience in television
production that I did.
He had no experience intelevision production, but he
(21:31):
was my supervisor, and I washappy to do that.
All of a sudden, after workingwith him, he starts
micromanaging me.
And he says to me, from now on,every email you send out
externally, see, I want to beCC'd so I know what you're
doing.
Okay, now keep in mind, I was 40years old.
I had again managed big teams,millions of dollar budgets, and
(21:54):
now he's micromanaging me, whichis again one of the worst
feelings you can have.
And I was certain that he wasdoing this so he could stop
anything really good that I wastrying to accomplish.
That was my sense of him.
So, this is the point I'm makingin terms of what happens.
So I decided after a month, Isaid, this is not going well.
And we're not communicating,it's uncomfortable, at least
(22:18):
from my standpoint.
I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna askhim to go to lunch.
Let's just go to lunch.
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Okay, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
Get away from the office and talk it through.
I'm a good person, I'm surehe'll see that.
And but believe it or not, I wasI was nervous to ask him.
Can you imagine?
I'm 40 years old and I'm nervousto go down four offices and ask
somebody, hey, can we grablunch?
Yeah, should tell you enough toknow what a bad situation it
was.
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
I finally get to his office, he's there, and I said,
Hey, could we grab lunch?
I didn't want to go anything,just very simple.
And I don't want to use aninappropriate word on your
podcast because I don't knowwhat's appropriate.
But he said, Regal, we don'tneed to break bread.
You just need to do your effingjob.
And he looked down at the groundor at his desk, started writing,
(23:07):
and basically dismissed me.
Okay.
Now he so again, that's targetedbehavior.
It's it's it's inappropriate.
It doesn't help me do my jobbetter.
He was my boss, right?
And it doesn't help thebusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
That's micromanaging, that's bullying,
and that's bad for employees andbad for business.
Hundreds of billions of dollarsare lost every year by virtue of
people.
You know, I went back to mydesk, I couldn't concentrate.
And that happens where peoplecan't focus on what they're
doing or they spend time withother colleagues who are being
bullied.
And instead of being productive,they leave, retention is a
(23:50):
problem, it costs money torehire people.
So, what I say is if you don'tcare about your employees, you
should care about your businessand your bottom line.
And so you should care aboutyour employees, but billions of
dollars are lost.
I've coached people, Robin, whotold me they cried all the way
to work.
I've coached people, I'vecoached people who said they
didn't go to work.
(24:10):
Okay, that was you.
You you should tell us whathappened.
I've coached people who didn'tgo to work because it's
horrible.
I've coached people who end upin in you know needing a
psychiatrist, and I've coachedpeople who've ended up in the
hospital.
And those are all costs to humanbeings, which they don't
deserve, and it's a massive costto businesses.
Yeah, so you cried on the way towork, did you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I used to cry all thetime.
It was years ago.
I haven't I left that job awhile, a while ago, but every
day.
And then it was just like agang.
It would just they would bullyup on me.
It's it's almost as as though,which of course I don't really
know, but it felt as though theywould have meetings together and
figure out like how are we gonnaget her, how are we all gonna
(24:54):
gang up on her?
But believe it or not, the onething that I have never in my
years that I have been bulliedbefore, I had a gentleman who
came to me.
He was doing because he wasactually my manager, he was
doing my evaluation and he said,you know what?
He reared back in his chair andhe said, You know what?
First, I want to start off and Ijust want to apologize.
(25:16):
And I said, Well, why?
He said, Because I'm aware ofeverything that we have done to
you, and you have still come towork every single day with the
smile on your face, and you justdid your job, and we tried to
take that away from you.
And I have to admit that we didthat, and I was stunned.
I had no idea how to evenrespond to that, but of course,
(25:38):
it made me tear up because Icouldn't believe that he was man
enough to do that and heapologized.
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Well, it's unusual to get that kind of vindication,
yeah.
However, he should be ashamedthat he didn't do something
about it.
And this is what happens, andthere's no laws against this,
Robin.
There's no laws againstbullying.
Now, if you're harassed becausesomeone says, like in my case,
okay, I'm over 50, if somebodysays, Hey, old man, we don't
(26:10):
want anybody like you aroundhere with your stupid old ideas,
then I'm in a protected class.
If you're a person of color andsomebody uses a racial epithet,
I won't even indicate what thatwould be, but you we all know
what that would be.
If someone says, hey, you typeof person, but you know, bosses
don't really do that.
They're they're smarter thanthat.
(26:31):
You know, they're smarter thansaying, hey, you person with
disabilities, get out of here.
You know, people don't do that.
Now that might be part of thebullying, they might have some
kind of enmity towards me as anolder person or you as a person
of color, whatever it is.
But there's no laws against it.
There's only laws if you'rebullied in a protected class,
(26:52):
even then, it's very hard toprove because the people aren't
that blatant.
And so there's no laws againstharming people, damaging people.
You were damaged.
It was great that he mentionedit, but he should have done
something about it.
And that's the big problem withthis issue.
There, like we talked aboutearlier, where are you gonna
turn?
And in in all my years that thishappened, I never went to HR.
(27:13):
Why?
Because I didn't realize that itwas bullying, I just thought it
was television.
But what's HR gonna do?
In most cases, you know, it'snot the person in the mail room
who's the bully, it's the personin the corner office or the
number two or three or fourperson in the company.
And and and the HR people aren'tgonna go after those people.
They pay, you know, that theyhave their careers in their
(27:34):
hands too.
They pay the bills.
So it it I'm glad he said thatand he was, as you said, man
enough to do it.
He should have been man enoughto stop it.
And that's why I'm with workingwith other people to create a
movement, frankly, where we saynot only is enough enough,
enough is too much.
We don't deserve it, we don'twant it, it's not good for us,
(27:55):
and it's not good for thebusiness.
And so stop it.
And in the meantime, until I cando that, and I have some other
thoughts for you, I'm trying tohelp as many people I can to
cope and heal.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Yes, and definitely.
I I agree.
And Andy, I must say, is evengoing to HR, it it is bullying
inside the workplace, it isvery, very difficult because
going to HR isn't always goingto help you as well.
Because even if the you getlawyers involved, HR involved,
at the end of the day, it'sstill about that company, they
(28:27):
want to protect that company, soit can get very, very, very
ugly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
No, they have you're right, you're 100% right.
They have, as they should, theinterest of the business.
Yes, they don't if they careabout you, that's a nice thing,
but they only care aboutprotecting the business.
So it's not gonna helpnecessarily.
You might find a nice person whofeels bad for you, yeah.
But so here's what I'msuggesting.
(28:54):
And there are laws beingproposed in state legislatures
across this country, but it'staken 30 years, and now they're
starting to get some traction,but there's no actual law on the
books about this.
What I'm lobbying for, what I'madvocating for, and and
companies can do this tomorrow,is institute bylaws, codes of
(29:18):
conduct, just like we do forsexual harassment, where we
watch a video, we we read aboutit, and we sign a form that
says, I get it, I understand it,and I'm not gonna do it.
Yeah, we need the same thingsfor incivility and degradation.
And again, that doesn't meanthat the first moment somebody
raises their voice, that there'srepercussions.
It just means that everybodyunderstands there's a certain
(29:40):
way we're gonna conductourselves, both in the office
and with our customers, to saythis is what we expect.
And if a boss or supervisor,manager, or even the CEO is
hostile towards somebody, again,not in a protected class, but
just because they've beentargeted for whatever reason,
and it's repeated behavior thatdoesn't have benefit to the
(30:03):
employee or the organizationthat there's repercussions, that
you're not gonna be promoted,that you're gonna lose your
bonus.
Right.
At some point, if you can't doit, you're gonna be fired.
Now, there's a thing we alsocall a brilliant jerk.
And this is what happens is mostof the time the people that
comport themselves these thisway are very good at sales.
They're high up in theorganization, they're well
(30:24):
respected, and they may haveterrific capabilities.
Yeah, but what we find is theymake so many people miserable
and hurt so many people that nomatter how much money they're
making, they're causing theorganization to lose so much by
virtue of the people that leave,that aren't productive, that
have to be rehired, and soforth.
So it's usually a person that'swell respected.
(30:47):
And in my case, the guy who wastelling you about who said, go
sit back down and do your job,we don't need to break bread.
He was very well respected.
And I would even argue hedeserved respect.
He was very good at what he did.
But when it came to this kind ofmanagement, he was hurting the
organization and he certainlyhurt me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And morale is a big thing, andit seems no one focuses on
company morale anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Yeah, and and you know, we call it culture, toxic
culture.
Yeah, and I've seen I worked foran organization that was valued
at$100 million, Robin, at onepoint.
It was a media organization, andwe had a number two person who
was a terrible bully boss, and Ibelieve that he led to the
demise of the company by virtueof how he treated people.
(31:34):
Can I tell you a quick anecdoteabout sarcasm?
Absolutely.
Okay.
So we had a situation.
I've told this story before, butit's apropos here in terms of
the different kinds of bullying.
So this guy, we were supposed tohave a big meeting, and outside
clients were coming in, and wewere going to serve breakfast,
you know, bagels and fruit andjuice and whatever.
(31:56):
And our office manager hadordered the breakfast, but it
didn't come.
And all of a sudden, there's awhole bunch of tension, like, oh
my, because we needed thismeeting to go well, and the
outside people are gonna be herein any minute.
And so I said to the officemanager, the food's not coming,
let's run down the street to thedeli.
I'll help you, we'll go get it,we'll run back, and even if
(32:17):
we're a little late, we'll putit out and hopefully we'll solve
the problem.
Now, keep in mind, I had nothingto do with ordering the food or
getting there.
That was not my job.
My job was vice president oforiginal production, and that's
important.
We run out, we run back.
Look at this.
They were in traffic, we beatthe um clients or prospective
clients back.
(32:38):
So we're I have my back to thegroup, the group's assembled
again, and we're putting out thecream cheese and the Danish,
whatever it was, and this juice.
And the bully boss with my backto him says, Jesus Regal, you
can't even effing producebreakfast.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (32:55):
Okay, similar to what the other bully said,
right?
Now it was a funny comment,everybody laughed, but I didn't
have the right retort.
I didn't, I'm not that good atthat kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
But what it said to everybody was, I'm up for
ridicule, I'm worthy ofridicule.
Right?
And and it made me feel bad.
It made me feel very bad.
Now, is that as bad as otherforms of bullying?
Maybe not, but it says to thegroup something about how that
bully boss viewed me, and to acertain extent, how the group
(33:28):
should view me.
Right, correct.
Um, and everybody laughs why,just like in the playground, and
I don't deal with childhoodbullying much, Robin, but just
like in the playground, a lot ofthe kids like, you know, fight,
fight, fight, you know, whenthere's a bully.
Why?
Because they're not the one.
Yeah, they're just relieved thatsomebody else is getting bullied
(33:49):
and they're not, and they don't,and so they want to take part to
show the bully, we approve ofwhat you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
And you talked about the group mobbing.
People approve of the bullying,not because they like it so
much, but because they want thebully boss to know I'm with you.
Right.
That's why it's so, sodispiriting and so devastating
because you're so much on yourown.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Absolutely.
And tell us a little bit aboutyour book, because I know it
said that it's due to release inApril next year.
So tell us more.
SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
Yeah, thank you.
So this is uh the book's calledSurviving Bully Culture, and the
subtitle is A Career SpentNavigating Workplace Bullying
and a Guide for Healing.
And that's a big, it's a longtitle, but it's important people
know that there's a lot thereabout how you can cope and heal.
So I use my story, some of theanecdotes I've said here, and
many others of things thathappened to me or that I saw
(34:40):
happen to other people.
I interviewed experts, dozens ofexperts from around the world,
neurobiologists, psychiatrists,psychologists, academicians,
people that study this issue.
And I learned so much from them,and I want to share their
teachings with people.
So, this is a book which I hopeis a good story.
(35:01):
There's a full story about mycareer and what happened to me,
and some funny stories that'snot all serious, some famous
people that you would know thatI worked with, and the bullying
that I experienced, and thenwhole sections on understanding
why it happens, how it happens,and what you can do about it.
The book is available forpre-order.
(35:21):
Maybe we can include uh uh alink in the notes or something.
But absolutely, I'd love forpeople to see it.
I'd like to think it could haveimpact, and that's why I'm doing
it.
I'm doing it because I suffered.
I suffered in silence.
I had no idea that this wasactually an issue.
I never went to HR, never wenton the on, you know, the
internet to research this.
And I know to this day thatpeople feel similarly, despite
(35:45):
the fact there are now resourcesout there to help.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Yeah, and Andy, and I I also want to just add one
thing to that is a thing aboutbullies is they also know how to
bully because when if you're ina situation where you have to
try to prove that there's beensome type of discrimination or
sexual harassment, or it's hardto prove.
And these bullies, they knowthat.
(36:08):
And that's where I feel thereneeds to be more awareness and
for a better support, a supportgroup for people to realize that
your voice will be heard.
You know, it's good to let thatvoice be heard because too many
people are getting away with it.
SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
Yeah, you're so perceptive.
In my case, I thought almostliterally the bully bosses could
smell me coming.
And I think to a certain extent,they can sense the people that
are so well-meaning, this peoplebecause they know that you're
not gonna fight back, you'regonna go sit back down and try
again, try harder, try better.
Yeah, and that's not a solutionto bullying.
(36:44):
So, yes, they they target thepeople that they know aren't
gonna scream and yell back.
It's the people that are justlike, okay, I gotta figure this
out, and I'm gonna keep tryingharder to please the bully boss.
They they don't go for thepeople that are apathetic, as I
said earlier.
And some people are not goodbully targets because they're
tougher.
And I don't mean thatnecessarily in such a positive
(37:06):
way that those of us who aren'tthat way, but there are some
people that I worked with agreat producer who wouldn't let
anybody talk to him sideways.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
And he didn't care if he if he got fired.
He didn't I don't I don'tprescribe to that as an approach
to stopping your bully, butthere are some people that
aren't good bully targets.
And the and the the the bulliesare very smart, very intelligent
oftentimes, and they can see youcoming and they know who to
mistreat.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Absolutely.
I I agree 100%.
Well, Andy, what what is thename of your your website?
SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
Right.
Thank you for asking that too.
So uh my website is very simple,simple.
It's anderiegal.com, a n d y dotr-egl.com.
If you want to reach out to me,if you'd like to avail uh
yourself of my coachingservices, happy to do that.
But I I want to stress, Robin, II only wish this this was a
money-making venture.
(37:59):
I'm not doing it for that.
I love talking to victims who Ican help.
There is a way through.
It may seem simplistic because Idon't have a formula to say go
into your boss and do this.
No, it's about us understandingwhat's going on with the boss
and how we can kind of digestwhat they're doing and still
(38:22):
find joy.
I mean, finding psychologicalsafety, restoring your
self-esteem, still findingpurpose in your works,
celebrating small wins.
There's all kinds of things wecan do.
And also, I'll give you two morereal quick if you don't mind.
Positive self-talk.
A lot of times I was my worstbully in my head because I had
(38:42):
very negative self-talk.
And then finally, forgiveness.
Forgiveness to yourself becausewe do self-blame ourselves.
And ultimately, not that youhave to do this in person or
even to the person, butforgiveness of the bully because
it's better for us, it's ahealing for us, and also
acknowledging that they gottheir own issues and goodbye,
good riddance, but I forgive youjust because I'm gonna move on
(39:06):
and not let you rent space in myhead or or or be in my heart.
SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Yeah, and Andy, and I also wanted to add to that is
I love the forgiveness, but alsowhen helping others is a big
part of that, like you stated,is understanding kind of what's
going on, that it isn't them,because I feel that a lot of us
who want to be heard, we alsowant to be understood.
And it's like we focus on tryingto be understood instead of
(39:31):
actually understandingourselves.
So I'm really, really thankfulthat you have this support group
that's out there right now.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
We have it, and I'm thankful for you, Robin.
Thank you.
This has been a delightfulconversation, and you said it
better than I have said itunderstanding ourselves.
We can't understand the boss.
We don't know why they do whatthey do necessarily.
I mean, there's some research,but it's a waste of time.
What we want to do is understandourselves and allow our light to
shine and and we Don't want tolet the bully keep us from doing
(40:02):
that, as I said.
SPEAKER_00 (40:03):
I agree.
I apologize for that.
My battery was about to dance.
All right.
I do apologize for that there.
But um with uh what is onesuggestion or piece of advice
that you can give the listenerswho are struggling in this
situation right now?
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Yeah, I would say definitely, and I touched on
this a few minutes ago, but I'mgonna say it again.
That you need to leave the bossin the in the workplace.
What I did, I brought them homeand I couldn't enjoy anything.
I couldn't enjoy ice cream, Icouldn't enjoy a sporting event.
(40:43):
I was in a terrible uh bullyingcircumstance.
I had a newborn and atwo-year-old and a wife, and I
was not a good partner nor was agood father during that time.
And what I can say is, you know,I'm not one of these people, and
and you may disagree and forgiveme, but about you know, all
things happen for a reason, oror even this notion of don't
(41:04):
worry, you'll get another job.
You know, no, that that's notthe point.
It's not the point that youknow, maybe you'll get a better
job, you'll make more money, oranything like that.
It's about remembering thatthere's joy in life, good music,
you know, and you may be fearfulof losing your paycheck, or you
may ultimately lose your job.
(41:25):
You can still find joy in life,you can still find purpose in
life, you can still celebratethese small wins.
When you go home, listen tomusic, read a book, walk in a
garden, read a poem, you know,look at the sunset, exercise,
whatever those things are thatyou can find relief from and
(41:47):
enjoyment from activities andbehaviors away from the boss.
When you're back in the office,you'll do the best you can.
You'll hopefully do some of thethings we've talked about.
But the main thing is life is soshort that helping others will
also make you feel better.
That's why I'm doing this work.
I don't want people to gothrough what I did.
I love when I talk to people andthey get relief and they say,
(42:10):
Oh, I get it.
I'm not alone.
But the main thing is, no matterwhat you do, is hug the people
that you care about.
And remember, remember, thereare people that love you, that
like you.
Why do they love you and likeyou?
Don't let the bully boss, thatone person or those three or
four or five people, overwhelmall the other people in your
(42:32):
life that that identify you as awonderful person.
That's the best advice I cangive, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (42:37):
I couldn't agree anymore.
I love that.
I love hearing that, Andy.
Thank you again so much.
And please just tell us the nameof your book and your website
again, because I'm also going toput it in the show notes, but
just then tell us again.
SPEAKER_01 (42:49):
No, it's it's much appreciated.
And the book is available forpre-order now.
It's called Surviving BullyCulture by Andy Regal.
And you can order it uh throughmy website at andreal.com, and
it'll send you to the pre orderpage, and it'll be available in
the next uh month or two.
SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
All right.
Well, thank you again so much,and thank you, listeners.
Again, I'm Robin Black, and wehad our guest, Mr.
Andy Regal, and this is It's AllAbout Healing Podcast.
Everyone, stay blessed.
Welcome back, listeners.
I'm Robin Black, and this isIt's All About Healing Podcast.
Today I want to speak.
We're going to speak aboutsurviving bullying in the
workplace.
And we have a special guest withus today, Mr.
Andrew Regal.
Andrew, just take a moment tointroduce yourself.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Sure, uh, Robin, pleased to be with you.
Please call me Andy if you like.
That's fine.
I go by Andrew or Andy.
Andy's fine.
I spent 25 years in television,television and video production
in New York, mostly livetelevision.
And as I was kind of lookingback on my career, I started
writing a book during COVID.
(00:37):
And what I found was there was athrough line of workplace
incivility and degradation,workplace bullying.
But I didn't, I never realizedit was that.
I thought that thismismanagement, mean spirited
behavior was a part of being inlive television.
It's just that's television.
And I started doing research onthe book, and I found that this
(01:01):
kind of thing happens to reallygood employees in every
industry, every industrypossible.
And so that's when I reallybecame kind of interested in
this overall topic, not just howit affected me, but how it
affects tens of millions ofreally good people and great
workers across this country.
SPEAKER_00 (01:19):
Okay, so tell us a little bit on your story and
what you've experiencedbully-wise in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01 (01:27):
Yeah, what I would suggest is that I was
hardworking, devoted, loyal, andproductive.
That's the way I do things.
And as I've studied the issue,that's what I found with people
throughout industries, that thepeople that get bullied are the
best of employees, not theworst.
And in in my work on this issue,we're not talking about people
(01:51):
that show up late or that areapathetic or don't do
assignments.
Those people probably don't careif they're bullied.
And so, in my experience, whatI've found is that the best
employees get bullied becausefor some reason, and we can talk
about this later, for somereason, it's the good employees,
the team players who get bulliedbecause the managers,
(02:14):
supervisors, and bosses, forsome reason, it bothers them
that they're really good people.
And those are the people, thepeople that care the most.
And I think I know I was one ofthose people.
And I experienced it in almostevery job I had, where I was
doing great work and I did getpromoted and I was paid, and I
appreciated that.
(02:36):
But the incivility, themean-spiritedness, the threats
affected my physical andemotional well-being such that I
had high anxiety,hypervigilance, I had difficulty
keeping down food, and I hadharmful thoughts because I had
this somewhat naive notion, andwe can talk about self-blame as
it pertains to bullying, but Ihad this notion that if I'm a
(02:59):
good person, I work hard, I do agreat job, that it's going to
come back to me, not just interms of having the job, but
being appreciated.
I think we all want to beappreciated.
Instead, you feel like you don'tmatter.
And mattering is a big topic inthe workplaces these days.
And I felt like the boss made mefeel like I didn't matter.
And in some circumstances, theboss made me feel like they were
(03:23):
out to get me, even though I wasdoing good work.
SPEAKER_00 (03:26):
Absolutely.
I oh my gosh, I know thatfeeling all too well, Andy.
So tell me a little, a littlebit more about how you said it
made you want to self-harm.
Why do you feel that it made youthat way?
SPEAKER_01 (03:40):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate the question,Robin.
It's because you lose allself-worth.
Nobody has more power.
Well, I shouldn't say no one,but very few people has have as
much power over you as a bossdoes.
In fact, I did a television showyears ago with a sheriff down in
North Carolina.
And the sheriff, when I observedhim with his inmates, had so
(04:05):
much power over the inmates,right?
I mean, they they didn't havefreedom.
And he controlled every movementwhen they ate, when they slept,
when they got out of theircells.
And I look at bosses, they haveso much influence over us, over
our paycheck, our ability tosupport our families, our
self-esteem, our self-worth, ourfutures, our popularity in the
(04:26):
workplace.
So it's for that reason thatwhen we feel like we're doing
all the right things and we'relooking almost at a boss like a
parent, you know, where theycontrol your well-being, it
really affects us such to theextent that I lost so much of my
self-esteem and self-worth thatI started, I and by the way, I
never tried to harm myself.
(04:48):
I don't want to over-dramatizethis, but I had very depressing
thoughts about myself because Iblame myself.
I kept saying, What is it aboutme that's doing this?
What is it about me that'scausing the boss to treat me
this way?
SPEAKER_00 (05:02):
And you know what, Andy, is I I think a lot of us
feel that way because weinternalize so many things.
And then it's like you get towork, you're kind of you become
in this mindset where you'rejust kind of on autopilot
because you're internalizingthese thoughts.
You're thinking, oh, they're outto get me.
I'm walking on eggshells, you'refeeling like this every single
(05:23):
day.
And then it's like you becomecomfortable being uncomfortable
because it's just something thatyou're used to.
So a lot of people aren'trealizing that that those are
the feelings that they'reinternalizing.
It's not normal, even though itseems like society has
normalized having this feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (05:41):
So well said.
I mean, one of the first thingsI talk about with my coaching
clients who are working to getover this trauma, and that's
what it is, it's trauma, ispsychological safety.
Number one.
Psychological safety meaningwhen we're at work, we don't
feel safe.
At any moment, we could get atext, an email, not as often
(06:01):
these days, phone call, butphone call, or be called to a
meeting, or be called to theboss's office.
I remember one of the worstthings that could happen to me
from one of the worst bullybosses was when his executive
assistant would call me and saythe boss would like a word, you
know, a word with you.
And that and then you had thiskind of dead man walking kind of
(06:23):
feel, you know, and you couldn'tfathom what you did wrong, but
the scorn was going to come.
It was going to come.
And so these things are just sodebilitating, Robin, as you
know.
And I'm here to say we don'tdeserve it.
Nobody's ever asked to bemistreated in the workplace.
And by the way, if somebody is asubpower employee, it's your job
(06:46):
as a manager to make them betteror ask them to leave.
It's time to leave.
And you can do that also withsome empathy, right?
But nobody deserves to betreated in a hostile manner.
And that's what I'm out to do tobring awareness to this issue
and create change.
SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
And I I love that.
So, what's the name of yourcoaching business?
SPEAKER_01 (07:08):
So, my overall business is called surviving
bully culture.
Okay.
I also have a Facebook group,which I encourage people to
join.
It's on Facebook, it's calledcalled Navigating Workplace
Bullying, which is for any kindof any victim who is looking for
resources and looking for acommunity.
We have 500 people, all of whomhave been bullied and are
(07:30):
looking for community andcompassion and resources.
So my coaching business issimply that people reach out to
me because they're trying tocope with and heal from this
experience.
And I guess if I had to give aname to my coaching business, it
is you are not alone.
(07:50):
Because when you're beingbullied, Robin, and I think you
probably experienced thisyourself.
And I was just at a conferencedown in Washington this week,
and there were a number ofvictims there, all of whom the
theme was they felt so alonebecause your family can't really
help you.
Your friends can't help your.
(08:11):
They could all be a little bitof help.
Your minister, maybe, maybe not,you know, but ultimately it's
just you.
Your colleagues can't reallyhelp you.
They may be getting bullied too.
You're on your own.
And again, we started talkingabout this notion of
psychological safety.
The first thing I do when I workwith bullying victims is we work
on psychological safety to say,look, I understand what you've
(08:33):
been through.
I've been through it.
We have to start working onfeeling safe, despite what the
bully's doing.
Doesn't mean I can't guaranteeyou're not going to lose your
job, but I can help people beginto feel safer in their own skin.
Because we can't change thebehavior of the bully.
There's nothing much we can do.
(08:53):
Now, if something happens, thebully changes their own
behavior, that's great.
But I'm not aware of any formulafor saying in every situation,
this is how you change thebehavior of your bully.
SPEAKER_00 (09:06):
And see, I think what I'm realizing though is I
feel like all theprofessionalism and
confidentiality and workplaceshas completely disappeared.
Um, because what I'veexperienced is it almost seems
as though it's like some of thebosses could be like a part of
like this mob mentality.
(09:28):
It's like once you're in there,if one person doesn't like you,
whether it's an uppermanagement, whether it's just,
you know, an employee, itdoesn't matter.
It's like once they form thatclick, if you're not a part of
that click, now it's like youhave all these clicks that
you're trying to feel accepted,you know.
(09:49):
And it's like if you, like yousaid, if you're a great
employee, you do the rightthing.
You're, you know, you don't needvalidation, you're not seeking
these things.
So you're just out there to doyour job on your own.
Now you're not a part of it.
Now everyone's looking at you,and now they all have daggers
because they're like, we, she'sdifferent, he's different.
I don't like it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:09):
Yeah.
Well, you mentioned severalgreat points there.
Let me see if I can address eachone.
First of all, a feeling ofbelonging is inherent in the
human condition, right?
It's one of the things we getfrom being at work.
Now, we may not like being atwork as much as we'd like to be
home with our family and friendswho love us, but there is a
(10:31):
benefit to working collectivelyand a feeling of belonging.
And when you have that, whenthat's important to you, and
then it's thrust from you andtaken away from you, it is
absolutely destructive in everyway.
And it happened to me.
I worked at a place, a big mediaorganization, and they kept
(10:54):
saying to me, Oh, you know, yourteam makes needs to make more
money.
And I was like, Well, I needhelp from the business side.
I'm a journalist, I'm aproducer, I know how to make
money with the video that we'reproducing, but I need help.
And I feel, in my opinion, and Ican back this up, I was
(11:16):
scapegoated.
And this is what happens aperson is identified as the
problem, whether they are oraren't.
And in my case, I don't believeI was.
SPEAKER_02 (11:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (11:25):
And then there's somebody on the other side who
decides they're gonna come afteryou for that.
And when everybody starts to seethat you're the target, they
start avoiding you.
And that's when you use the terma group mentality, what we call
in this work mobbing.
Mobbing is when more than oneperson is bullying you.
(11:46):
Now, one person, the main personmight be a boss or supervisor,
but then other people below thatperson kind of get involved
because why?
One person's demise in adysfunctional environment, one
person's demise is anotherperson's benefit.
And so then a turf work takesplace, and they almost you know
cannibalize, they eat thevictim, and then they all try to
(12:10):
rise from there.
So being ostracized, being takenaway from the team, which
happened in my case.
I also had another situationwhere the same kind of thing.
In this case, the company wasbeing sold, but and I wasn't
going to continue, and you'rejust sitting there in your
office with nothing to do.
You no longer are part of theteam.
(12:32):
It's awful.
You're not you're not beingasked for your help anymore,
you're not asked for yourguidance.
You think you have a lot tooffer.
Now no one's talking to you.
And by the way, people know apariah when they see one.
They know that if the top brasshas identified this person as
the the fault, you know, thereason something's going wrong,
(12:54):
even if it's not their fault atall, people know that they can
sense it, and they start stayingaway from that person.
So that I think, and we and I'llsay one other thing real quick,
if you don't mind, which isthere's all kinds of levels of
bullying and workplaceincivility.
We start out on one side withmaybe a boss rolling their eyes
(13:16):
at something you say orinterrupting you every time you
say something.
That's one side.
Then there's sarcastic comments,which also suggests that the
person is worthy of ridicule.
That's happened to me as well.
And then there's the reallyterrible stuff, the yelling, the
screaming, and the targetingwhere you're ostracized.
(13:37):
I think that's the most painfulwhen you're taken out from the
team and identified as somebodywho's less than.
SPEAKER_00 (13:45):
Right.
And I I also kind of want to addto that is it seems now,
nowadays in a lot of workplaces,it just becomes more and more
significant.
But there's zero support.
There's almost zero training, asthough it's like a psychological
warfare.
So if you don't get the amount,the proper amount of training,
(14:06):
it's like they deliberately areout to make you feel stupid, you
know, to kind of mess with yourmind, to kind of put you in that
state of being of feeling like,oh my gosh, if I don't get this,
I'm gonna be fired if I don't,you know what I mean?
So it's what is what are youwhat are your suggestions and
what are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01 (14:23):
Yeah, uh it can happen in any situation.
As I said, it happens in everyindustry.
And the reason I'm so interestedin this topic is because I was
senior management, it happenedto me.
It can happen at any level, itcan happen in to anybody, any
race, any gender, any sexuallife.
It happens to all of us.
And in fact, um, in anunofficial survey, and we talked
(14:47):
about this before we came onair, I have about a 98% response
rate when I say to people theyfind out what I do, and my books
come out, and I'll ask them, Isay, Have you ever been bullied?
And they're like, let me tellyou what happened to me.
About 98% of people tell me, andagain, some are severe cases,
some not so severe, but they allfelt like they were mistreated
(15:09):
and didn't deserve thattreatment.
SPEAKER_02 (15:11):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:11):
And so what I try to do, because again, we can't stop
it from happening necessarily.
I work with people on notallowing the bully boss to
overwhelm you and your life.
I believe, and in fact, I devoteand dedicate my book dedicate my
(15:32):
book to those that shed theirlight on others.
I believe in that.
That that those of us that givesomething smile when you meet
people, and you have a beautifulsmile if you don't mind me
saying so.
That has an impact, right?
And the work you're doing hasimpact.
And and what bully bosses do, inmy view, is they darken
(15:54):
everybody, they they darken ourlight.
Yes, they keep us from beingable to shed our light because
we're just like so overwhelmedand overwrought by virtue of the
abuse, which it is.
Now, again, it's it's I'm notsuggesting it's nobody threw a
stapler at me, right?
I wasn't bleeding.
That's not the kind of thingwe're talking about.
This is also not sexualharassment.
(16:16):
And maybe, Robin, this is a goodtime for me to kind of define
what I see, and there's a numberof good definitions, what I
define as bullying.
Because look, I was a bossmyself for most of my career.
I was an executive producer at33.
And so I manage teams of 50 andmore across the world.
I had teams in Hong Kong,London, San Francisco,
(16:36):
Washington, D.C., and New York.
Um, we all have bad days, we allget hangry, yeah, blood sugar.
I'm not expecting bosses to beperfect, and and bully bosses
aren't bullies all the time.
Um, but for me, the definitionis repeated, targeted behaviors
(16:58):
that have no benefit to theemployee or the organization.
But we're also not talking abouttough love, right?
This is not where the boss getskind of annoyed with me or
irritated with me, but thenliterally or figuratively puts
their arm around me and says,Andy, you're a key member of
this team.
I love having you on the team.
I know you can do better.
(17:20):
That's not bullying.
Now, there may be better ways tohandle it, but if the employee
feels like the boss has theirbest interests at heart, that's
generally not bullying.
It's when we lose psychologicalsafety and we feel like they're
out to get us, right?
That that they want to harm us,they want to damage us, they
want to hurt our careers, andit's not warranted in any way.
(17:43):
It never is, but I'm sayingyou're doing good work and
you're still experiencing that.
To me, that's bullying.
Now, we can all work on beingbetter bosses.
I certainly pounded some tables,I interrupted people, and I
needed to be a better managerand better boss.
But the difference is when I gotangry, and and maybe unjustly
(18:05):
so, either later that day orcertainly the next day, I came
back and said, Hey, my bad.
I'm so sorry.
This was an issue.
I should, I should have handledit better.
Let's let's talk today and makeit right and move on together.
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (18:17):
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (18:18):
Bosses don't do that.
Robin, I had a boss, I workedfor seven, eight years, did
great things, never once got athank you, and got all kinds of
threats and scorn, and if I eversee this again, kind of stuff.
And and and bully bosses don'tapologize and they don't they
don't acknowledge their ownmistakes.
And it's one of the best thingsyou can do as a manager.
(18:40):
Acknowledge your own mistakes toyour team so that they know they
can make mistakes withoutretribution.
So that's my definition.
SPEAKER_00 (18:48):
And Andy, what do you feel?
A lot of like I know you may notfully obviously understand the
thought process, but what areyour thoughts on the fear
tactic?
Why is it that so many bossesuse that?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
Right.
Something else that I work withmy clients on, it's them, not
you.
They have a problem.
Yeah, they're fearful, they'reangry about something.
And again, I don't spend a lotof time trying to diagnose bully
bosses, whether they had a badmother, bad father, had a bad,
had a you know, woke up and hada fight with their partner.
(19:27):
It you know, it doesn't reallymatter to those of us who have
been victimized.
But yeah, that's part of thehealing and coping, is it's
them.
Now, if if if you're a screw up,that's a different conversation.
Is this yeah?
But if if and it it's amazing tome, and I appreciate the the
humor in it because it is everyperson I coach, I say to myself
(19:50):
when I meet them and start workwith them, I can't believe this
person got bullied.
Now, again, I'm not there andI'm not trying to do
investigation on what exactly isgoing on, but these are.
Good, warm, smart, hardworkingpeople from every indication.
And so what I say to them isagain, it's the boss, it's it's
their problem, his or herproblem, their problem.
(20:13):
They have an issue, they'reworried about the future of the
company, or they're having theirown issues with anger
management, whatever it is.
But it's really not you.
It feels like you.
And it and believe me, I've I'velived it.
It's lived experience in mycase.
But that's what we start to workon is understanding that you
have your own universe, you canonly do what you can, and you
(20:36):
have to let the bully be.
And you need to work on yourselfso that you don't let them, as
we talked about earlier, turnoff the light that shines in all
of us.
SPEAKER_00 (20:46):
Absolutely.
And a lot of times it seemsthough some people feel that
their voices just aren't beingheard because their boss may
feel intimidated by them alsobecause they know, wow, this
person may be more qualifiedthan me.
So let me try to kind of shutthem down mentally so that they
don't thrive the way that theyreally can thrive.
SPEAKER_01 (21:09):
Let me give you a perfect example of what you're
talking about.
I had a bully boss.
As I said, I had him in almostevery job I had.
A bully boss, I had a greatboss, he got let go, fired.
My new boss was 10 years myjunior, which I was fine with
that, but he didn't have theexperience in television
production that I did.
He had no experience intelevision production, but he
(21:31):
was my supervisor, and I washappy to do that.
All of a sudden, after workingwith him, he starts
micromanaging me.
And he says to me, from now on,every email you send out
externally, see, I want to beCC'd so I know what you're
doing.
Okay, now keep in mind, I was 40years old.
I had again managed big teams,millions of dollar budgets, and
(21:54):
now he's micromanaging me, whichis again one of the worst
feelings you can have.
And I was certain that he wasdoing this so he could stop
anything really good that I wastrying to accomplish.
That was my sense of him.
So, this is the point I'm makingin terms of what happens.
So I decided after a month, Isaid, this is not going well.
And we're not communicating,it's uncomfortable, at least
(22:18):
from my standpoint.
I said, I'm gonna, I'm gonna askhim to go to lunch.
Let's just go to lunch.
SPEAKER_02 (22:22):
Okay, right?
SPEAKER_01 (22:24):
Get away from the office and talk it through.
I'm a good person, I'm surehe'll see that.
And but believe it or not, I wasI was nervous to ask him.
Can you imagine?
I'm 40 years old and I'm nervousto go down four offices and ask
somebody, hey, can we grablunch?
Yeah, should tell you enough toknow what a bad situation it
was.
SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:43):
I finally get to his office, he's there, and I said,
Hey, could we grab lunch?
I didn't want to go anything,just very simple.
And I don't want to use aninappropriate word on your
podcast because I don't knowwhat's appropriate.
But he said, Regal, we don'tneed to break bread.
You just need to do your effingjob.
And he looked down at the groundor at his desk, started writing,
(23:07):
and basically dismissed me.
Okay.
Now he so again, that's targetedbehavior.
It's it's it's inappropriate.
It doesn't help me do my jobbetter.
He was my boss, right?
And it doesn't help thebusiness.
SPEAKER_00 (23:26):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (23:26):
That's micromanaging, that's bullying,
and that's bad for employees andbad for business.
Hundreds of billions of dollarsare lost every year by virtue of
people.
You know, I went back to mydesk, I couldn't concentrate.
And that happens where peoplecan't focus on what they're
doing or they spend time withother colleagues who are being
bullied.
And instead of being productive,they leave, retention is a
(23:50):
problem, it costs money torehire people.
So, what I say is if you don'tcare about your employees, you
should care about your businessand your bottom line.
And so you should care aboutyour employees, but billions of
dollars are lost.
I've coached people, Robin, whotold me they cried all the way
to work.
I've coached people, I'vecoached people who said they
didn't go to work.
(24:10):
Okay, that was you.
You you should tell us whathappened.
I've coached people who didn'tgo to work because it's
horrible.
I've coached people who end upin in you know needing a
psychiatrist, and I've coachedpeople who've ended up in the
hospital.
And those are all costs to humanbeings, which they don't
deserve, and it's a massive costto businesses.
Yeah, so you cried on the way towork, did you?
SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I used to cry all thetime.
It was years ago.
I haven't I left that job awhile, a while ago, but every
day.
And then it was just like agang.
It would just they would bullyup on me.
It's it's almost as as though,which of course I don't really
know, but it felt as though theywould have meetings together and
figure out like how are we gonnaget her, how are we all gonna
(24:54):
gang up on her?
But believe it or not, the onething that I have never in my
years that I have been bulliedbefore, I had a gentleman who
came to me.
He was doing because he wasactually my manager, he was
doing my evaluation and he said,you know what?
He reared back in his chair andhe said, You know what?
First, I want to start off and Ijust want to apologize.
(25:16):
And I said, Well, why?
He said, Because I'm aware ofeverything that we have done to
you, and you have still come towork every single day with the
smile on your face, and you justdid your job, and we tried to
take that away from you.
And I have to admit that we didthat, and I was stunned.
I had no idea how to evenrespond to that, but of course,
(25:38):
it made me tear up because Icouldn't believe that he was man
enough to do that and heapologized.
SPEAKER_01 (25:47):
Well, it's unusual to get that kind of vindication,
yeah.
However, he should be ashamedthat he didn't do something
about it.
And this is what happens, andthere's no laws against this,
Robin.
There's no laws againstbullying.
Now, if you're harassed becausesomeone says, like in my case,
okay, I'm over 50, if somebodysays, Hey, old man, we don't
(26:10):
want anybody like you aroundhere with your stupid old ideas,
then I'm in a protected class.
If you're a person of color andsomebody uses a racial epithet,
I won't even indicate what thatwould be, but you we all know
what that would be.
If someone says, hey, you typeof person, but you know, bosses
don't really do that.
They're they're smarter thanthat.
(26:31):
You know, they're smarter thansaying, hey, you person with
disabilities, get out of here.
You know, people don't do that.
Now that might be part of thebullying, they might have some
kind of enmity towards me as anolder person or you as a person
of color, whatever it is.
But there's no laws against it.
There's only laws if you'rebullied in a protected class,
(26:52):
even then, it's very hard toprove because the people aren't
that blatant.
And so there's no laws againstharming people, damaging people.
You were damaged.
It was great that he mentionedit, but he should have done
something about it.
And that's the big problem withthis issue.
There, like we talked aboutearlier, where are you gonna
turn?
And in in all my years that thishappened, I never went to HR.
(27:13):
Why?
Because I didn't realize that itwas bullying, I just thought it
was television.
But what's HR gonna do?
In most cases, you know, it'snot the person in the mail room
who's the bully, it's the personin the corner office or the
number two or three or fourperson in the company.
And and and the HR people aren'tgonna go after those people.
They pay, you know, that theyhave their careers in their
(27:34):
hands too.
They pay the bills.
So it it I'm glad he said thatand he was, as you said, man
enough to do it.
He should have been man enoughto stop it.
And that's why I'm with workingwith other people to create a
movement, frankly, where we saynot only is enough enough,
enough is too much.
We don't deserve it, we don'twant it, it's not good for us,
(27:55):
and it's not good for thebusiness.
And so stop it.
And in the meantime, until I cando that, and I have some other
thoughts for you, I'm trying tohelp as many people I can to
cope and heal.
SPEAKER_00 (28:06):
Yes, and definitely.
I I agree.
And Andy, I must say, is evengoing to HR, it it is bullying
inside the workplace, it isvery, very difficult because
going to HR isn't always goingto help you as well.
Because even if the you getlawyers involved, HR involved,
at the end of the day, it'sstill about that company, they
(28:27):
want to protect that company, soit can get very, very, very
ugly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
No, they have you're right, you're 100% right.
They have, as they should, theinterest of the business.
Yes, they don't if they careabout you, that's a nice thing,
but they only care aboutprotecting the business.
So it's not gonna helpnecessarily.
You might find a nice person whofeels bad for you, yeah.
But so here's what I'msuggesting.
(28:54):
And there are laws beingproposed in state legislatures
across this country, but it'staken 30 years, and now they're
starting to get some traction,but there's no actual law on the
books about this.
What I'm lobbying for, what I'madvocating for, and and
companies can do this tomorrow,is institute bylaws, codes of
(29:18):
conduct, just like we do forsexual harassment, where we
watch a video, we we read aboutit, and we sign a form that
says, I get it, I understand it,and I'm not gonna do it.
Yeah, we need the same thingsfor incivility and degradation.
And again, that doesn't meanthat the first moment somebody
raises their voice, that there'srepercussions.
It just means that everybodyunderstands there's a certain
(29:40):
way we're gonna conductourselves, both in the office
and with our customers, to saythis is what we expect.
And if a boss or supervisor,manager, or even the CEO is
hostile towards somebody, again,not in a protected class, but
just because they've beentargeted for whatever reason,
and it's repeated behavior thatdoesn't have benefit to the
(30:03):
employee or the organizationthat there's repercussions, that
you're not gonna be promoted,that you're gonna lose your
bonus.
Right.
At some point, if you can't doit, you're gonna be fired.
Now, there's a thing we alsocall a brilliant jerk.
And this is what happens is mostof the time the people that
comport themselves these thisway are very good at sales.
They're high up in theorganization, they're well
(30:24):
respected, and they may haveterrific capabilities.
Yeah, but what we find is theymake so many people miserable
and hurt so many people that nomatter how much money they're
making, they're causing theorganization to lose so much by
virtue of the people that leave,that aren't productive, that
have to be rehired, and soforth.
So it's usually a person that'swell respected.
(30:47):
And in my case, the guy who wastelling you about who said, go
sit back down and do your job,we don't need to break bread.
He was very well respected.
And I would even argue hedeserved respect.
He was very good at what he did.
But when it came to this kind ofmanagement, he was hurting the
organization and he certainlyhurt me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
And morale is a big thing, andit seems no one focuses on
company morale anymore.
SPEAKER_01 (31:12):
Yeah, and and you know, we call it culture, toxic
culture.
Yeah, and I've seen I worked foran organization that was valued
at$100 million, Robin, at onepoint.
It was a media organization, andwe had a number two person who
was a terrible bully boss, and Ibelieve that he led to the
demise of the company by virtueof how he treated people.
(31:34):
Can I tell you a quick anecdoteabout sarcasm?
Absolutely.
Okay.
So we had a situation.
I've told this story before, butit's apropos here in terms of
the different kinds of bullying.
So this guy, we were supposed tohave a big meeting, and outside
clients were coming in, and wewere going to serve breakfast,
you know, bagels and fruit andjuice and whatever.
(31:56):
And our office manager hadordered the breakfast, but it
didn't come.
And all of a sudden, there's awhole bunch of tension, like, oh
my, because we needed thismeeting to go well, and the
outside people are gonna be herein any minute.
And so I said to the officemanager, the food's not coming,
let's run down the street to thedeli.
I'll help you, we'll go get it,we'll run back, and even if
(32:17):
we're a little late, we'll putit out and hopefully we'll solve
the problem.
Now, keep in mind, I had nothingto do with ordering the food or
getting there.
That was not my job.
My job was vice president oforiginal production, and that's
important.
We run out, we run back.
Look at this.
They were in traffic, we beatthe um clients or prospective
clients back.
(32:38):
So we're I have my back to thegroup, the group's assembled
again, and we're putting out thecream cheese and the Danish,
whatever it was, and this juice.
And the bully boss with my backto him says, Jesus Regal, you
can't even effing producebreakfast.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_01 (32:55):
Okay, similar to what the other bully said,
right?
Now it was a funny comment,everybody laughed, but I didn't
have the right retort.
I didn't, I'm not that good atthat kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:06):
But what it said to everybody was, I'm up for
ridicule, I'm worthy ofridicule.
Right?
And and it made me feel bad.
It made me feel very bad.
Now, is that as bad as otherforms of bullying?
Maybe not, but it says to thegroup something about how that
bully boss viewed me, and to acertain extent, how the group
(33:28):
should view me.
Right, correct.
Um, and everybody laughs why,just like in the playground, and
I don't deal with childhoodbullying much, Robin, but just
like in the playground, a lot ofthe kids like, you know, fight,
fight, fight, you know, whenthere's a bully.
Why?
Because they're not the one.
Yeah, they're just relieved thatsomebody else is getting bullied
(33:49):
and they're not, and they don't,and so they want to take part to
show the bully, we approve ofwhat you're doing.
SPEAKER_00 (33:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (33:55):
And you talked about the group mobbing.
People approve of the bullying,not because they like it so
much, but because they want thebully boss to know I'm with you.
Right.
That's why it's so, sodispiriting and so devastating
because you're so much on yourown.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Absolutely.
And tell us a little bit aboutyour book, because I know it
said that it's due to release inApril next year.
So tell us more.
SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
Yeah, thank you.
So this is uh the book's calledSurviving Bully Culture, and the
subtitle is A Career SpentNavigating Workplace Bullying
and a Guide for Healing.
And that's a big, it's a longtitle, but it's important people
know that there's a lot thereabout how you can cope and heal.
So I use my story, some of theanecdotes I've said here, and
many others of things thathappened to me or that I saw
(34:40):
happen to other people.
I interviewed experts, dozens ofexperts from around the world,
neurobiologists, psychiatrists,psychologists, academicians,
people that study this issue.
And I learned so much from them,and I want to share their
teachings with people.
So, this is a book which I hopeis a good story.
(35:01):
There's a full story about mycareer and what happened to me,
and some funny stories that'snot all serious, some famous
people that you would know thatI worked with, and the bullying
that I experienced, and thenwhole sections on understanding
why it happens, how it happens,and what you can do about it.
The book is available forpre-order.
(35:21):
Maybe we can include uh uh alink in the notes or something.
But absolutely, I'd love forpeople to see it.
I'd like to think it could haveimpact, and that's why I'm doing
it.
I'm doing it because I suffered.
I suffered in silence.
I had no idea that this wasactually an issue.
I never went to HR, never wenton the on, you know, the
internet to research this.
And I know to this day thatpeople feel similarly, despite
(35:45):
the fact there are now resourcesout there to help.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
Yeah, and Andy, and I I also want to just add one
thing to that is a thing aboutbullies is they also know how to
bully because when if you're ina situation where you have to
try to prove that there's beensome type of discrimination or
sexual harassment, or it's hardto prove.
And these bullies, they knowthat.
(36:08):
And that's where I feel thereneeds to be more awareness and
for a better support, a supportgroup for people to realize that
your voice will be heard.
You know, it's good to let thatvoice be heard because too many
people are getting away with it.
SPEAKER_01 (36:22):
Yeah, you're so perceptive.
In my case, I thought almostliterally the bully bosses could
smell me coming.
And I think to a certain extent,they can sense the people that
are so well-meaning, this peoplebecause they know that you're
not gonna fight back, you'regonna go sit back down and try
again, try harder, try better.
Yeah, and that's not a solutionto bullying.
(36:44):
So, yes, they they target thepeople that they know aren't
gonna scream and yell back.
It's the people that are justlike, okay, I gotta figure this
out, and I'm gonna keep tryingharder to please the bully boss.
They they don't go for thepeople that are apathetic, as I
said earlier.
And some people are not goodbully targets because they're
tougher.
And I don't mean thatnecessarily in such a positive
(37:06):
way that those of us who aren'tthat way, but there are some
people that I worked with agreat producer who wouldn't let
anybody talk to him sideways.
SPEAKER_02 (37:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:14):
And he didn't care if he if he got fired.
He didn't I don't I don'tprescribe to that as an approach
to stopping your bully, butthere are some people that
aren't good bully targets.
And the and the the the bulliesare very smart, very intelligent
oftentimes, and they can see youcoming and they know who to
mistreat.
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
Absolutely.
I I agree 100%.
Well, Andy, what what is thename of your your website?
SPEAKER_01 (37:38):
Right.
Thank you for asking that too.
So uh my website is very simple,simple.
It's anderiegal.com, a n d y dotr-egl.com.
If you want to reach out to me,if you'd like to avail uh
yourself of my coachingservices, happy to do that.
But I I want to stress, Robin, II only wish this this was a
money-making venture.
(37:59):
I'm not doing it for that.
I love talking to victims who Ican help.
There is a way through.
It may seem simplistic because Idon't have a formula to say go
into your boss and do this.
No, it's about us understandingwhat's going on with the boss
and how we can kind of digestwhat they're doing and still
(38:22):
find joy.
I mean, finding psychologicalsafety, restoring your
self-esteem, still findingpurpose in your works,
celebrating small wins.
There's all kinds of things wecan do.
And also, I'll give you two morereal quick if you don't mind.
Positive self-talk.
A lot of times I was my worstbully in my head because I had
(38:42):
very negative self-talk.
And then finally, forgiveness.
Forgiveness to yourself becausewe do self-blame ourselves.
And ultimately, not that youhave to do this in person or
even to the person, butforgiveness of the bully because
it's better for us, it's ahealing for us, and also
acknowledging that they gottheir own issues and goodbye,
good riddance, but I forgive youjust because I'm gonna move on
(39:06):
and not let you rent space in myhead or or or be in my heart.
SPEAKER_00 (39:11):
Yeah, and Andy, and I also wanted to add to that is
I love the forgiveness, but alsowhen helping others is a big
part of that, like you stated,is understanding kind of what's
going on, that it isn't them,because I feel that a lot of us
who want to be heard, we alsowant to be understood.
And it's like we focus on tryingto be understood instead of
(39:31):
actually understandingourselves.
So I'm really, really thankfulthat you have this support group
that's out there right now.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
We have it, and I'm thankful for you, Robin.
Thank you.
This has been a delightfulconversation, and you said it
better than I have said itunderstanding ourselves.
We can't understand the boss.
We don't know why they do whatthey do necessarily.
I mean, there's some research,but it's a waste of time.
What we want to do is understandourselves and allow our light to
shine and and we Don't want tolet the bully keep us from doing
(40:02):
that, as I said.
SPEAKER_00 (40:03):
I agree.
I apologize for that.
My battery was about to dance.
All right.
I do apologize for that there.
But um with uh what is onesuggestion or piece of advice
that you can give the listenerswho are struggling in this
situation right now?
SPEAKER_01 (40:21):
Yeah, I would say definitely, and I touched on
this a few minutes ago, but I'mgonna say it again.
That you need to leave the bossin the in the workplace.
What I did, I brought them homeand I couldn't enjoy anything.
I couldn't enjoy ice cream, Icouldn't enjoy a sporting event.
(40:43):
I was in a terrible uh bullyingcircumstance.
I had a newborn and atwo-year-old and a wife, and I
was not a good partner nor was agood father during that time.
And what I can say is, you know,I'm not one of these people, and
and you may disagree and forgiveme, but about you know, all
things happen for a reason, oror even this notion of don't
(41:04):
worry, you'll get another job.
You know, no, that that's notthe point.
It's not the point that youknow, maybe you'll get a better
job, you'll make more money, oranything like that.
It's about remembering thatthere's joy in life, good music,
you know, and you may be fearfulof losing your paycheck, or you
may ultimately lose your job.
(41:25):
You can still find joy in life,you can still find purpose in
life, you can still celebratethese small wins.
When you go home, listen tomusic, read a book, walk in a
garden, read a poem, you know,look at the sunset, exercise,
whatever those things are thatyou can find relief from and
(41:47):
enjoyment from activities andbehaviors away from the boss.
When you're back in the office,you'll do the best you can.
You'll hopefully do some of thethings we've talked about.
But the main thing is life is soshort that helping others will
also make you feel better.
That's why I'm doing this work.
I don't want people to gothrough what I did.
I love when I talk to people andthey get relief and they say,
(42:10):
Oh, I get it.
I'm not alone.
But the main thing is, no matterwhat you do, is hug the people
that you care about.
And remember, remember, thereare people that love you, that
like you.
Why do they love you and likeyou?
Don't let the bully boss, thatone person or those three or
four or five people, overwhelmall the other people in your
(42:32):
life that that identify you as awonderful person.
That's the best advice I cangive, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (42:37):
I couldn't agree anymore.
I love that.
I love hearing that, Andy.
Thank you again so much.
And please just tell us the nameof your book and your website
again, because I'm also going toput it in the show notes, but
just then tell us again.
SPEAKER_01 (42:49):
No, it's it's much appreciated.
And the book is available forpre-order now.
It's called Surviving BullyCulture by Andy Regal.
And you can order it uh throughmy website at andreal.com, and
it'll send you to the pre orderpage, and it'll be available in
the next uh month or two.
SPEAKER_00 (43:08):
All right.
Well, thank you again so much,and thank you, listeners.
Again, I'm Robin Black, and wehad our guest, Mr.
Andy Regal, and this is It's AllAbout Healing Podcast.
Everyone, stay blessed.
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