July 26, 2023 • 40 mins
You're excited to carve out a niche, but struggling to differentiate yourself in a saturated market. We talk with Casey Fuerst who's here to share her strategies for standing out, and the power of language in framing your business. We navigate the importance of presenting ourselves distinctively, and how a simple shift in the way you talk about your business can make all the difference. Casey is a certified StoryBrand Guide and uses this framework to create marketing messaging, plans and collateral to increase impact and grow business. She owns and provides lead consultation for Tic Tac Toe Marketing.
Connect with Casey Fuerst:
Website: https://www.tictactoemarketing.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/casey-fuerst/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tictactoemarketing
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tictactoemarketing/
Follow the podcast at @itsjustbusinesspodcast on all the major podcasting platforms.
Connect with us:
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www.itsjustbusinesspodcast.com
You can find Dana @adashofboss, @dana.dowdell and @hrfanatic
Dana Dowdell – Boss Consulting – HR Consulting
Google - https://tinyurl.com/y4wxnavx
You can find Russ @reliable.remediation
Russ Harlow – Reliable Remediation – Disaster Restoration
Google: https://g.page/r/CXogeisZHEjMEB
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dana (00:04):
Hi Russ Dana.
Russ (00:06):
I'm excited.
Dana (00:08):
I'm so excited.
So you and I feel like talk alot about what value we get from
the podcast, and one of thosethings I think for both of us
was a previous guest, casey,first, and you got all roped
into story brand stuff.
Her and I connected about someof her consulting services and a
(00:29):
family contact she had, and sheis back with us today to have
another conversation.
So, casey, welcome back to.
It's Just Business.
Casey Fuerst (00:39):
It's so good to be back.
You guys are so fun.
Dana (00:41):
We are very grateful to have you here, so you own
TicTacToe Marketing and, for newlisteners, just tell them a
little bit about what you do,who you are.
Casey Fuerst (00:52):
Yeah, I mean, you know we're like a lot of small
businesses, we serve a lot ofdifferent markets and we're
trying very hard to niche down.
You know, the more that we canserve the specific audiences,
the better we are at it, and sowe're really working hard at
niching to serve primarily, ifnot only, coaches and
consultants, so that audiencehas some unique needs that we
(01:13):
feel like we can meet betterthan other marketers and do it
affordably.
So that's that's who we are.
Dana (01:21):
I have to tell our listeners.
So Casey and I had a kind oflike a discovery call, because
I'm a consultant and you werejust fantastic with what you
brought to the conversation andthe ideas and I got my wheels
spinning.
And then not only that, but youfollowed up like a month or two
later I was like, hey, I just Ijust talked to this person.
(01:44):
It reminded me of ourconversation and wanted to
revisit it with you.
So I'm just I am very impressedby by what you do and how you
serve people.
Casey Fuerst (01:53):
That is awesome.
I'm so glad that you got valueout of it.
That's you know.
That's happened.
So often I hear the stories ofthe people that I get to work
with and I immediately justinvest in them, like I love the
work that y'all do and it's soimportant.
There's such a gap in themarketplace right now that,
especially when budgets aregetting cut and internal
staffing costs are going downFortunately for a lot of
(02:16):
companies, though, that doesn'tnecessarily mean that they can't
still hire outside consultantsand coaches that can help them,
and it's becoming much moremainstream for people to do so,
which is an amazing thing forall of us that serve in that way
.
Dana (02:29):
Yeah, so you support coaches, consultants in the
marketing sphere and we weretalking offline about it's.
It can be a saturated market100%.
Casey Fuerst (02:40):
Yeah, I mean speaking to the it can get.
It's.
It's much more mainstream,right?
The people are used to havingcoaches.
They understand the concept ofbringing in a consultant to help
with a very specific slice ofwhat they're doing, and that
that means that there are justan enormous amount of new
coaches and consultants in themarketplace, especially since
(03:00):
COVID right, everybody we hadthis great resignation.
Everybody left the marketplaceand they said we're going to do
our own thing, and they saw thesuccess of others being coaches
and consultants, and so theygrabbed ahold of that.
Unfortunately, that does meanthere's some out there that are
either not very experienced orthey're just not good at what
they do, and for those of usthat have been around beyond
(03:22):
that amount of time and are goodat this, it means that we've
got to show up in a differentway so that those that are
looking to hire us recognizeimmediately these people are
legit, they have authority inthe space.
Russ (03:35):
And I think what's important to understand, even if
you're not a coach or aconsultant.
This is true in any industry,right, you know?
Somebody sees a way to makemoney and everybody jumps in and
gets on board and there's goodand bad companies.
There's experience and notexperience, and those don't
always mean the same thing.
Experience doesn't necessarilymean good.
So there's.
Please just don't shut this offbecause you're not a coach or
(03:58):
consultant, because there'sdefinitely something to learn
here.
Casey Fuerst (04:01):
Right.
I think a lot of times forsmall business owners coaches,
consultants, whomever you arewhen you get in front of people
and you deliver what you're goodat delivering, they say, oh my
gosh, how did we not know aboutyou sooner?
We're going to tell all of ourfriends.
All of that stuff is happening.
Unfortunately, in this kind ofa market, you can't just rely on
referrals and other people'sgood word to get you new
(04:22):
business.
You need to be getting that onyour own, and the only way to do
that is to look really goodwhen you present yourself, and
the way you talk about yourselfhas to has to mean something.
Dana (04:33):
So for someone that might be listening, that is wanting to
start to get into consulting orwanting to start to be a coach,
that idea of talking aboutyourself in a legitimate way, I
think is really essential.
I remember when I first startedmy business I used to say I'm
starting an HR consultingbusiness.
(04:53):
And when I flip the script andstarted to say I own an HR
consulting business, like thelanguage that we use when we
talk about ourselves is reallyimportant.
Do you see that with the peoplethat you work with as well?
Casey Fuerst (05:09):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, you know, all of us arehuman and for anyone that has a
reasonable EQ level, right,there's a humbleness that comes
with us and part of that is, youknow, there's this sense of we
need to tell people what wedon't know.
We need to tell people who wearen't, because otherwise they
might think that I'm somethingI'm not and then be disappointed
and it's just not true, right,I mean it's just not you.
(05:31):
When you show up withconfidence and authority and you
speak about yourself as who youare now I am an HR consultant,
I do work that matters for themarketplace then people believe
you, people, they hire you, theywant to be a part of your world
.
Because of that and so often Imean even with really seasoned
(05:52):
coaches and consultants there'sstill some of that in there and
you know that humbleness cancome through when you serve
people, but it shouldn't comethrough in your, in how you sell
yourself.
Russ (06:05):
Now it's important, Casey, because I know you niche down
and work with consultants andcoaches.
But if there's coaches outthere working with all different
kinds of brands and servicesand products and everything else
, so even though there are a tonof people out there doing this,
they have to find their peopleright, Because they work better
(06:27):
with certain people, their idealclients, and they probably help
solve a special problem thatmaybe somebody else doesn't do.
So how do you help peoplefigure out what that problem is
and start attacking and figuringout how to find their people?
Casey Fuerst (06:43):
Gosh.
I just had this conversationyesterday with a consultant.
It was such a commonconversation.
So often we think, oh, I'mafraid to limit my reach, I'm
afraid to limit my message toexactly who I really want to
serve, because if I do that, Imight miss somebody out here on
the fringes, somebody might notthink that I'm for them right.
(07:05):
Here's the example that I liketo use.
I hope this makes sense.
If I want to hire a plumber, Iget online and I Google plumber.
Right, that's just that's whatI do and I hire a plumber.
I don't look for handyman wholists plumbing as one of their
things.
I hire a plumber.
What that means is that thathandyman who's listing his
(07:27):
services as six different thingsis getting no business because
they are there for everyone.
But the plumber is getting alot of business, the electrician
is getting a lot of business,the woodworker is getting a lot
of business.
So it's the same for us.
If I'm for everyone.
If I'm for all small businesses, coaches and consultants will
overlook me because they don'tthink that I'm for them
(07:49):
specifically.
So I get more business bysaying I am for coaches and
consultants than I do if I sayI'm for small businesses.
Is that helpful?
Russ (07:59):
It's 100% helpful, it's simple and it makes absolute
sense 100%.
And so now, now that I knowthat I have to do that, how do I
start to kind of weed out thehow do I get my message?
It's because not everybody'sjust looking for a plumber, like
we're looking for marketinghelp, or how do I.
You know what I mean.
(08:19):
So how do we start to kind offlesh out the rest of that so we
can find more of our people andclone them, and so we can?
Casey Fuerst (08:29):
Yeah, Once you know who you're, for once you've
got that niche kind of narrowedright and it's never going to
be perfect.
You're always going to be kindof widening or narrowing or kind
of.
You know, there's some flex oneither end of that with who you
serve and sometimes you mightdecide to add a completely
separate audience or expand big.
And those are big kind ofmarketing campaigns that we run
(08:50):
that help you get into newmarkets and those kinds of
things.
But assuming that you kind ofset on your niche right, then it
becomes really getting clearabout what their problem is that
you solve for them, right.
This gets into the story brandstuff for us.
This gets into the space wherewe say if someone is hiring a
plumber, right, they're lookingfor not just someone who can fix
(09:13):
their toilet, they're lookingfor someone who isn't going to
make a mess in their house,who's going to be really fast
about it, because nobody wants abroken toilet for more than a
couple of days, right.
So those are the things thatstart to matter when you market
yourself.
So you really have to get intothe brains of the people you
want to serve and say, beyondthe basic service I provide,
what are the other things thatthey're looking for that can
help differentiate me from mycompetition.
Russ (09:37):
It's hard to find the philosophical in that one oh
right.
Yeah, you know what?
It's not fair that pipes justbreak and now you have this mess
in your house.
Casey Fuerst (09:51):
Well, it sucks.
Yeah, it sucks when you're downto one toilet, right?
I mean, we're suburbanAmericans, we're used to two,
three toilets for our family.
If we all have to share one, wefeel like it's a hardship.
Yeah, this example has maybegone a little too far, but for
coaches and consultants, let'sgo back there, right?
For coaches and consultants,they spin in a space of looking
(10:12):
the same as all of their other,all of the other people that
they work with.
So what we do and this is ahuge piece for us is we really
help to differentiate them bytaking those unique solutions
that they're always offering andturning them into their custom
proprietary content.
So let's just take, for example,dana, who works with HR.
You're kind of regurgitating alot of the same solutions all
(10:33):
the time.
Companies are constantly comingto you with here's our problem
and they're nuanced, but they'rebasically the same, right?
It's true for marketing, it'strue for mold, it's true for
everything.
The problem is roughly the sameand because of the work you do
and your specialties, you'vekind of gotten good at
regurgitating those solutions.
You repeat, rinse and repeat.
(10:54):
You say them a lot.
That becomes your kind ofpillar of who you are and it
becomes the thing that you'reknown for.
So what we do is say let's takethat and let's capitalize on it
.
Let's create frameworks, and byframeworks I mean ways of
understanding things that youcan own as your own copyrighted
(11:14):
content and then build from thatthe stuff that it takes to
charge more, to get morebusiness and to scale faster.
Dana (11:25):
I think as a consultant I am in, I think the point in
business that is the perfectclient for you, because I have
been training time for moneyright and I think we might have
talked about this on our calllike time for money and time is
finite and unless you keepraising your prices, your income
(11:49):
is potentially capped or hiringright.
So you get to this point inyour consulting or coaching
business where you're like howdo I scale without cloning
myself?
And it's about cloning yourcontent, your material, to help
(12:11):
scale your business.
Casey Fuerst (12:13):
It is and it's about saying I provide something
different.
So I am no longer trading timefor money, right.
So when I first started in thisindustry and I started kind of
selling my services, I had awonderful mentor and friend and
she was in a similar space andshe said, basically, when I
price myself, I figure that I'mabout $1,000 a day.
(12:34):
That's kind of how she priced.
So if I think something's goingto take me three days, I charge
$3,000.
That's kind of how she figuredout her pricing.
And so I started there, right,I started in this headspace of
like, okay, well, I think that'sgoing to take me so much time,
so therefore I'm going to chargethis amount, and very quickly
realized that is very limitingand it's not quite.
(12:54):
It feels weird to me when someof the services that I provide
are they're getting way morevalue out of than other things
that I do.
For example, we do my agencydoes some graphic design stuff.
You can get graphic designservices for 30, 40 bucks an
hour on Upwork, right.
So we're not competing withthem, we're charging more than
(13:14):
that and that feels weird.
So you know, but some of theconsulting services I'm doing
they're turning that around andmaking hundreds of thousands of
dollars with thoserecommendations that I'm making,
so those ought to be at ahigher price point.
So, instead of that kind oftime for money solution, when
you create your own framework,when you've got your data
(13:36):
framework that says here's how Ido this and here's how your HR,
your group is going to nowadopt my philosophy for doing
this.
You provided such a high levelof value.
You go from trading valuetrading time for money to
trading value for money, andinstead of saying my day is
worth $1,000, you say I'm goingto deliver this.
(13:58):
I don't care how much time ittakes it might take three hours,
it might take 30 hours, butit's worth $5,000.
Dana (14:03):
Instead, I feel like that's a huge conversation in
itself.
That idea of value-basedpricing right, because it's like
I we talk about this instarting a business too.
Right, I have a good idea,everyone's going to want my
service or my product orwhatever because I have such a
good idea, right.
And I think it's like the same.
You can get stuck in the samethought process around
(14:27):
value-based pricing and in that,yeah, my services provide value
and it sounds like it's morethan just saying I think I have
value and I'm going to pricethat way.
It's about communicating whatvalue you provide.
Casey Fuerst (14:42):
Absolutely, and I'm not the expert on
value-based pricing.
There are really good books outthere of which I cannot pull
one off the top of my head rightnow, but there are good books
out there that you can look intohow to kind of figure out what
is that value-based pricing?
For me it's a bit it's looselydefined.
It's defined based on anaverage, whereas other companies
(15:03):
will literally say what do youanticipate earning from this
product?
You're launching this thingyou're doing.
I want 10% of that or I'm goingto charge you what you estimate
to be, and so they're leaninginto a much more technical way
of pricing things versus wheremost coaches and consultants are
(15:26):
.
And that is kind of grapplingwith what is the average of what
I would expect you to earn ormake from the services that I
provide you, and I'm going tokind of figure out a percentage
that I would charge.
Russ (15:41):
So important.
How do people start to figureout this framework and kind of
build up Are there like steps totake?
Are there things to do?
There's got to be a procession.
It's not like can't be random,I can just do this, this and
this.
I've got to do this first andthen what's the next thing?
And how do I build that up?
Casey Fuerst (15:58):
Yeah, so okay, so assume that you are a coach or
consultant.
You've been doing this a while.
You've got your set ofsolutions that you're kind of
leaning into and you're goingthis is what I'm being known for
, this is what people aregetting the most value from.
I want to kind of turn thisinto something that I can lean
into right.
So think about it in terms ofyou know, you've got your smart
goal setting, your everythingdisc, your enneagram, your
(16:19):
Maslow's hierarchy of needs thatyou can immediately imagine a
graphic that goes with it.
You want your stuff to be knownin a similar vein.
That's the kind of thing we'retalking about.
So the first thing that you dois you start to kind of map out
what are the solutions that I'mrepeatedly offering?
What problem do they solve?
Right, and then how might thatgo into serving the people that
(16:41):
I serve better?
So that's kind of step.
One is really trying to do thatand, frankly, it's hard for us
to do by ourselves.
So I have a hard time sittingby myself and saying here's how
I serve my clients and I'm goingto map this out and create a
framework.
It's why we exist right when wecan get on a call with someone
and say to them Russ, tell ushow you work with people and you
spend a half an hour talkingabout.
(17:04):
Well, we typically go in thisprocess.
Here's the things we're lookingfor, here's what we're doing.
We can synthesize that fairlyquickly and say okay, so here's
what I'm hearing.
I'm hearing that you lean intothese three pillars when you do
mold remediation and because ofthat, you're different than the
other guy doing mold remediation, and so we're going to take
that, create a beautifulframework from it and say this
(17:27):
is the reliable remediationmodel for how we serve you.
So it's sometimes not even thatsexy, it's just simple, and
simple is better when people canremember it and go I get it.
Then they're more likely tograb hold of it and reuse it.
So the best kind of frameworksare the ones that you leave
(17:49):
people with.
You come in, you teach it, youteach them how it's going to
make their lives and their jobsbetter and their bottom lines
better, ultimately, right.
And then you walk away and theykeep using it and they keep
going oh yeah, we got toremember that thing.
And when we keep our houseclean and when we keep moisture
out of the air and whatever elsethat looks like we don't have
(18:09):
to hire a bus again.
Russ (18:12):
So how does this manifest itself in most ways?
I mean, is this a webinarprogram?
Is this a coaching thing, anonline coaching?
Is this an e-book?
I mean, how does this manifestfor most people and how they
kind of get that framework?
Casey Fuerst (18:25):
That's a really great question.
So for most coaches andconsultants, what they're doing,
well, let's just use a coachingmodel.
A typical coaching model isthey want more coachees, right?
And they're typically charging,you know, anywhere from $150 to
$500 an hour for coachees tocome in.
That's a one and done kind ofthing.
Those are very hard to scaleand very hard to make a lot of
(18:45):
money on to do that.
Dana, you're nodding.
Dana (18:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's exhausting.
It's exhausting the time youknow one-on-one stuff.
It gets exhausting.
Casey Fuerst (18:56):
Right, and when we start to think about what does
it take to feed my family andhow do I thrive and build a
retirement fund for myself as asolopreneur in doing so, you
quickly realize it's got to bemore than that.
That is just not going to getme where I need to go to just do
those one-and-done kind ofclient engagements.
It's great that you want to dothat and that can definitely be
part of your income.
But there are ways that you canaccelerate that much faster.
(19:19):
One of those ways is takingthat framework that you're using
and turning it into a workshop.
So when coaches have this kindof I'm working with a client
right now.
He's fantastic and, oh my gosh,sitting with him feels like a
masterclass in leadership.
Every time I'm with him, he'sgenius and he pulls these things
out of people and he gets theminspired and he helps them see
themselves differently.
(19:39):
But he's doing that on aone-to-one basis and it's sad to
me, and so what we've done istake what he does, turn it into
a framework, turn it into ahalf-day workshop.
Now he's selling that half-dayworkshop for $5,000 a pop.
So he's doing two of those amonth and he just increased his
monthly income by $10 grand amonth.
And it's the same content everytime he delivers it.
(20:02):
So he doesn't have to do a lotof prep work.
Right, we've created a workbookfor him.
He throws the company logo onit that he's serving, gets them
printed at the FedEx and goes inand delivers, and then he walks
away and he's done, and theyare wowed by all of this and
that program then feeds hiscoaching clients.
Then they're like oh, I hadcoaching with you.
Dana (20:23):
I can also say that type of framework you can do train
the trainer 100% and scale evenfurther.
My business coach owns atraining company and she has
told me she's like I'll trainyou on our programs and then you
can deliver them and that'sjust essentially passive revenue
(20:45):
into your business.
If someone else is trainingyour proprietary content.
Casey Fuerst (20:50):
Doesn't that get you excited?
Like I get goosebumps when Ithink about the coaches that if
they just capitalized on theirgenius they could just scale and
escalate their incomeexponentially very quickly when
they do this kind of a thing.
Dana (21:05):
All right, I want to play devil's advocate a little bit,
because I exist in a world ofself doubt all the time, and so
I and I think I might have saidthis to you at our initial
conversation like but everythingI do is customized for the
client, right?
Or like but what if somethingchanges?
(21:26):
It can still contentproprietary information.
Your genius can still bescalable, right, 100%.
Casey Fuerst (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, and I have the same question,
because I'm like, well, but theyhire me, they want Casey.
They don't want my people, theywant Casey.
It's just not true.
I'm not that good, right, like.
I think that's too often.
There are big chunks of whatyou do that we can carve out and
create that core from, and thecustomization comes in, delivery
later.
So deliver the workshop,deliver the coaching, call about
(21:59):
around your framework and addthe extra as you go and that
becomes the does, become thethings you can charge even more
for because they are you there,they're 100% you.
Russ (22:10):
Well, casey, you are that good.
I mean I've been, I've divedinto the, you know Storybrand
podcasts and stuff to with, andyou know I've learned, and they
say it on every single oneStorybrand guides are the best
marketers in the world.
Casey Fuerst (22:24):
I like to think we are too, but you know there
there's the other good marketersout there.
Russ (22:29):
So what other things can can we be doing as coaches and
consultants to help find ways?
Maybe I don't want to write acourse, or what are some of the
other things that I can do toclone myself and my, my genius,
so that I can at least make alittle bit more money?
Casey Fuerst (22:47):
That's a great question.
You know, I don't know if thisis the direction that you were
wanting me to go with this, butI'm an enormous fan of virtual
assistance.
I think that VAs can make ourthe work that we do so much more
effective and efficient, and Ithink that, for coaches and
consultants, especially whenwe're spending so much time on
the details and in the weeds, wedon't get to develop and create
(23:10):
and deliver content.
And so you know, I'm a huge fanof getting getting somebody on
your team that can help you getthrough the daily tasks so that
you can deliver much moreefficiently.
Yeah, you know I'm going toturn direction a little bit on
you.
I do want to mention, thoughthere's it's really important,
when we're creating our ownmaterials, to we talk about it
as is it inspiration or is itimitation, when we're leaning
(23:33):
into other people's frameworks.
So it's really important thatwe recognize, if we're using
somebody else's framework, thatwe give them credit, and also,
if we're using that to build ourown, that we're doing it
ethically.
So there's there's some justbasic questions that we ask when
we're doing that, and we'rereal careful when, when somebody
(23:54):
else says this is based onPatrick, on Sione's, blah, blah
blah.
We say okay.
So we just want to go throughsome questions with you and make
sure that we're that we'redoing this ethically.
One is are we breaking any laws?
And those laws are fairlystraightforward IP laws are
pretty basic and pretty easy todiscern.
Whether or not we're breakingthe law, does the decision or
(24:15):
action align with yourprofessional values and
principles?
How would you be comfortablewith this decision being, or
action being made public?
So are you okay with peopleknowing that you did that?
And have you asked others,others that are in the business?
Is this something that I feelgood about?
And those kinds of things helpus to discern.
It's a gray space to be able toto use other people stuff and
(24:39):
and own them as our own, and sowe just want to make sure that
when we're doing that with ourclients, that they feel good
about it and that we feel okayabout it.
We're not going to let thingsgo too far into that.
I'm stealing.
We definitely want it to beinspiration, not imitation.
Dana (24:54):
And I think that also ties into the idea of like personal
brand, in terms of if you'rejust taking what someone else is
doing and repackaging it, thenit's not you, it's not, it's not
the, the person that peoplewere drawn to and they first
asked for an initial call.
Casey Fuerst (25:14):
Yeah, and it's hard to write, because if
somebody says to me what makesyou unique, what's different
about you, I might struggle withthat answer.
Sometimes I need to, I needsomeone else to tell me that.
I need someone else toexperience what I'm talking
about and saying this isdifferent from what I'm hearing
out there, and here's why.
So it's not something.
(25:34):
This, this idea of taking whatyou do and turning it into a
framework, is not something thatmost new coaches and
consultants can do well.
It really takes a few years ofpractice and repeat and testing
ideas to get to the point whereyou can own the content yourself
.
Russ (25:50):
So what's the biggest obstacle?
I mean, is it people feelinglike, oh, they're not getting me
?
Is it overcoming the idea that,well, I want to make more money
but I don't want to just besome shill for my workbook?
Or like, what's the biggestobstacle people have to come
overcome to jump into this withboth feet and go, yeah, no, this
(26:10):
is definitely the thing I needto do.
Casey Fuerst (26:13):
Yeah, two things.
One is confidence, right, youknow the self-doubt that Dana
was talking about.
We all have.
We all kind of wonder is itreally good enough to invest in?
That's big, that's the numberone.
And the second thing is justtaking the time to do it.
There's so many people outthere, so many coaches and
consultants that are out therethat are going this sounds
really good.
I'll do that next quarter, I'lldo that next year, right, and
(26:37):
it's like Dana's raised her hand, right.
Yeah, it's chicken and an eggwhich comes first, the doing the
work or making the money, anddoing the work comes first.
Do the work and you see thatmoney come in.
Dana (26:48):
I also think it's important to recognize,
especially in the service thatyou provide, like you are
coaching people through theprocess of building that product
, service, course, class,whatever, and that's so much of
the value is like there's anaccountability, there's a
framework to develop it, andsure you could probably do it on
(27:11):
your own, but it's so mucheasier and so much more
structured and so much morethoughtful and intentional when
you have that guide to work youthrough the process.
Casey Fuerst (27:22):
Absolutely.
We always tell people if youcan do it on your own and you
just need somebody to design itand make it look good, go out to
Upwork and find a designer,because they're cheaper than we
are.
But if you need someone thatcan help download your brain,
turn it into amazing resources,help you see things that you're
not seeing, and do it withinfour to six weeks and have a
product you're ready to sell andwalk out the door with, then
(27:45):
that's us.
Russ (27:46):
That was sales pitchy, sorry, no absolutely, Because I
was just going to say how do westart to present this to our
clients and potential clients?
So, you're the marketing guru.
Now we've got this framework,how do we sell it?
Casey Fuerst (28:02):
That's a great question too.
And again it goes to that onceyou've been in business for two,
three years, you've got anatural pipeline of people that
you've already sold to thatalready know your value.
So you start with them.
So once we've created yourmaterials and let me mention
that 90% of the packages that wedo we also create a landing
page for this new content, so aspace for you to sell it.
(28:23):
Oftentimes we're also creatingemails and stuff that you can
start to kind of talk about it.
Now, sales at this level don'tcome from the internet.
You don't just get peopleclicking buy now on your $5,000
half day workshop.
It does require personalconnections, sale, selling it
yourself.
So you do need to be a networkor be somebody who can get in
front of people, be confidentabout how you talk about it.
(28:45):
Once you have all thoseresources to say to the people
that you've already served hey,I'm launching this new thing
that I know is going to meetyour need.
And let's lean back intoStorybrand a little bit here and
say, when you know the problemthat's problems that they have
and you do because you'vealready served them you again go
back to those problems and yousay, hey, when we work together.
(29:06):
Last time I remember you talkingabout this How's that going?
That's number one.
And then you know, based ontheir answer, you say you know
what.
I really would love to get backin there and do this new thing
that we're doing and see if wecan dial this up a little bit
for you and get some betterresults.
How's that sound?
You know those kinds ofconversations.
First of all, you have to bebrave enough to have them and
(29:27):
this is a good reminder for meto like.
I still struggle with this andyou've got to be brave enough to
be in front of your idealclients, not just those that
have paid you lower amounts inthe past.
But you've got to say who aremy ideal clients?
Who's willing to pay what Ineed to charge?
And I'm going to get in frontof them and be brave.
Russ (29:46):
Now, beyond our existing clients and people we've served
in the past, I would think thatthere's got to be a framework
for building a funnel.
You know getting new emailaddresses, new clients, putting
out value added information sothat people start getting.
I mean, that's I see it workingwithin the story of brand
(30:07):
framework.
Right, I'm in the funnel, youknow I'm getting the emails.
I'm listening to the podcast.
I'm, you know, working with acoach now.
So finding ways to do thatwithin the business is also some
of the work that needs to bedone, right.
Casey Fuerst (30:24):
So I'm going to be contrary on this, russ.
I know that Storybrand andothers really lean into lead
generators and sales funnels andall of this, and in theory they
work.
In five years ago theydefinitely worked.
The problem is that everybody'sdoing it now, and so it's
(30:46):
harder and harder to build alead generator that can actually
get you leads, and for thecoach and consultant space it's
even harder.
They're everywhere.
So that is that is.
Don't tell the Storybrand folksthat I said this.
It's really tricky to do thatand expect really great results.
So I say to coaches andconsultants and this is
(31:07):
specifically for coaches andconsultants you have to tap into
your network, you have to tapinto your networking and you've
got to niche down.
You've got to narrow youraudience.
If I'm, if I'm, an executivecoach, it's tempting to be able
to say I serve executives acrossthe United States, and you
might.
You're going to get much bettertraction, like when you niche
before, if you say I serveexecutive coaches in my city,
(31:31):
and going to networking eventswith those executives becomes
much more practical.
And being face to face.
Hiring coaches and consultantsis oftentimes dependent upon
either a strong referral or apersonal experience with them,
and so you've got to find waysto have those things and then
they become the lead.
So it's still a lead generationof sorts.
(31:52):
It's still that funnel, butit's not all digital.
Dana (31:58):
I have two thoughts on this.
I feel like the sales funnel,email marketing.
It's very easy to fall intothat trap of doing what everyone
else is doing, like someonewill tell you oh, I got this
much in sales, so you should bedoing it without really thinking
through like, does this workfor my business, what I'm
selling, my network, mycommunity.
(32:19):
But I also think it's importantto recognize in that example of
executive coaching.
Russ and I met in a B&I andguess it might be a little bit
culty, but we often say, likeyour network is your net worth.
So if you're networking withexecutives in your city, they
network with other executives,so let them network for you with
(32:45):
your ideal client, right?
Casey Fuerst (32:47):
I think that's brilliant, yeah, and I think
that you can start.
You have to start somewhere, sostart local.
Start where you're at start,with the people you have the
easiest access to.
Russ (32:58):
You know and that goes with anything Like when we first
started, you know, my localservice business I thought cast
a widest net as possible andevery new business owner thinks
that I will work for food.
I mean, you're literallyholding up that side.
And then I realized, oh wait, Ijust I need to own my backyard.
I need to be the only personthat comes up when somebody in
(33:20):
my town or city searches andthen we start dialing out for
the surrounding area andeverything else.
It's the exact same concept andit seems counterintuitive.
I will drive 70 miles to getwhat?
Now, just focus in on that.
That's closest and easiest.
It will come.
Casey Fuerst (33:38):
Yeah, it's the same.
When we post social content too.
You know we post on social.
Let's just use LinkedIn as anexample.
When I post on LinkedIn, if I'mmarketing it to all small
business owners or all coachesand consultants, even that
message can be really wide, andit needs to be wide in order for
it to be for all of them.
When I start putting on paperwho are the top 10 people I want
(34:00):
to work with and I craft mymessages to them, the likelihood
that they connect with me ismore.
But also it's amazing how otherpeople connect more.
The same people I didn't reallyrealize needed to hear that
message are going that that'sspecific.
I really like that.
So it's true there too.
Russ (34:19):
So, to kind of get in, I want to talk a little bit about
Story of Rain.
I know we did it last time, butI've spent more time learning
about it since then.
So, yeah, I've loved it too.
I mean it just makes so muchsense.
But be warned movies are ruinedforever.
They really are.
Dana (34:38):
They really are.
Russ (34:39):
I just figured oh my gosh, I'm not connected to this
because they didn't follow thestupid framework, right.
So okay, now as a cultureconsultant, and how can we start
to kind of figure out not justthat we know the problems that
we solve, but how do we start tofocus in on the right things,
like we always want to solvethat external problem, right,
(34:59):
this is what I do.
We think we're selling thatexternal problem, but people buy
on the internal and thephilosophical.
So whether we're business tobusiness or business to consumer
, how are we kind of focusing inon some of those things and
kind of changing our mindset sothat our customers, our clients
(35:20):
don't just cut us out as noise,they actually go?
Oh, I see myself in that now.
Casey Fuerst (35:25):
Yeah.
So let me back up and give youthe 10 second education for your
listeners who aren't asfamiliar with StoryBrand.
So in StoryBrand we talk aboutwe have to solve a problem in
order to be the solution thatthey choose.
And so in StoryBrand we talkabout there's an external
problem, an internal problem anda philosophical statement.
An external problem is astatement of fact I need my lawn
(35:46):
mowed.
That is a fact.
I have a problem my lawn is amowed.
I need my lawn mowed.
That's an external problem.
The internal problem is I wantmy lawn to look better than my
neighbors, and internal problemsare much more important than
external problems.
People will pay more and buymore often when you solve an
internal problem than when yousolve an external problem.
(36:08):
So if a suburban household getstwo postcards in the mail from
lawn care companies and one sayswe mow lawns and the other says
we make your lawn look betterthan your neighbors, the second
one will always get morebusiness, okay.
Russ (36:23):
What about the one that says we give you back time to
spend with your family by givingyou a great, best looking lawn
in the neighborhood?
Casey Fuerst (36:30):
Great transition.
That is a philosophicalstatement, right.
That's yay, good job.
That's where we name the kindof ought should deserve.
What's just plain wrong aboutwhat you're dealing with now
that kind of thing that peoplecan rally around.
And the very best philosophicalstatements are the ones that
people might even disagree with.
They're a bit divisive becauseagain, it tells people who
(36:51):
you're for and who you're notfor.
And when you can rally peopleto your cry lawns, your lawn
needs to look better than yourneighbors.
My husband would reject thatpostcard outright because he's
like forget that Laws are notmeant to.
He's a farm boy, so he's likewe ought to leave the leaves on
the lawn, we don't need water orwhatever.
(37:11):
He would reject that.
But those who agree with it,who live in these neighborhoods
where they're competing patternsin their lawns, those people
would be drawn to that and getmore business and that's better
for the business owner, right.
So philosophical statements arepowerful when you can get them
right.
That's the space where you saypeople deserve clean drinking
(37:34):
water, right In today's, in thecoaching world.
Let's say you are a, let's sayyou're a family I'm struggling
with the right word a lifestylecoach, somebody who helps people
get balanced in their lives,right.
Making a statement like thehealthiest people have lifestyle
coaches, that's kind ofdivisive.
(37:56):
Like I don't have a lifestylecoach, I'm a fairly healthy
person, right.
But for a really health nut,they might be drawn to that and
say, oh, now that's a thing I'mmissing.
I can up level myself bygetting a coach right.
So there's a difference there.
So those are the kinds ofthings that you're talking about
.
For coaches and consultants,let's say you know there's that
was an example of a lifestylecoach.
(38:17):
For an executive coach, right.
The statement can be somethinglike being an executive is
lonely, you sit alone a lot andyou don't have that sounding
board or that venting space.
You don't have someone guidingyour thinking.
An executive coach can reallyhelp you take it to the next
level and dial it up with howyou serve the company that you
serve.
Russ (38:39):
I love it.
I mean, I'm just starting tochange my mind and how I look at
things so that I cancontinually look for those
internal and philosophicalproblems to be communicating
better with my clients andpotential clients.
So, media posts, website,everything, email marketing, all
(38:59):
the places that we communicatewith people, videos that we
create, everything else, becauseI just honestly, it was a
five-hour audible listen and I,you know, I did it multiple
times because I was just like no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes it makes sense, right?
Casey Fuerst (39:17):
The great thing about those kinds of messages is
we can test them.
They're not like your logo andthey have to stay the same for
10 years.
If you're finding it's notworking, test a different twist
on it and see if it connectswith people differently.
Russ (39:29):
Casey, how can people connect with you, find more
about kind of working, gettingthis framework, so that they
cannot be exhausted all the timeby just putting themselves out
there and only working withclients?
What can people do and wherecan they find you?
Casey Fuer (39:47):
TicTacToMarketingcom and there's a set up a call
button on there.
I'm very, very I love doingconsult calls, whether it
results in business or not, it'sjust super fun to get to know
your business and how you workand see if I can offer some
value to you in that shortamount of time.
And if you're interested inworking together, then we can
talk about that during the calltoo.
Russ (40:07):
I love talking with marketing folks.
I love talking with you, casey.
You're one of my favorites.
If you haven't heard episode118 with Casey, it's called
Understanding Marketing.
Go back and check that out andtake this one and share it with
some people that need to hear it, because this is just it's not
real hard, but sometimes,working through it, you need a
(40:30):
guide.
Yeah, and Casey, you're a greatguide.
Casey Fuerst (40:34):
You're the best.
Russ (40:35):
Thanks for being here.
Thanks for our listeners forbeing here.
Share this episode, like it,love it.
Send us some criticism, I don'tcare, it's not personal, it's
just business.
Hi Russ Dana.
Russ (00:06):
I'm excited.
Dana (00:08):
I'm so excited.
So you and I feel like talk alot about what value we get from
the podcast, and one of thosethings I think for both of us
was a previous guest, casey,first, and you got all roped
into story brand stuff.
Her and I connected about someof her consulting services and a
(00:29):
family contact she had, and sheis back with us today to have
another conversation.
So, casey, welcome back to.
It's Just Business.
Casey Fuerst (00:39):
It's so good to be back.
You guys are so fun.
Dana (00:41):
We are very grateful to have you here, so you own
TicTacToe Marketing and, for newlisteners, just tell them a
little bit about what you do,who you are.
Casey Fuerst (00:52):
Yeah, I mean, you know we're like a lot of small
businesses, we serve a lot ofdifferent markets and we're
trying very hard to niche down.
You know, the more that we canserve the specific audiences,
the better we are at it, and sowe're really working hard at
niching to serve primarily, ifnot only, coaches and
consultants, so that audiencehas some unique needs that we
(01:13):
feel like we can meet betterthan other marketers and do it
affordably.
So that's that's who we are.
Dana (01:21):
I have to tell our listeners.
So Casey and I had a kind oflike a discovery call, because
I'm a consultant and you werejust fantastic with what you
brought to the conversation andthe ideas and I got my wheels
spinning.
And then not only that, but youfollowed up like a month or two
later I was like, hey, I just Ijust talked to this person.
(01:44):
It reminded me of ourconversation and wanted to
revisit it with you.
So I'm just I am very impressedby by what you do and how you
serve people.
Casey Fuerst (01:53):
That is awesome.
I'm so glad that you got valueout of it.
That's you know.
That's happened.
So often I hear the stories ofthe people that I get to work
with and I immediately justinvest in them, like I love the
work that y'all do and it's soimportant.
There's such a gap in themarketplace right now that,
especially when budgets aregetting cut and internal
staffing costs are going downFortunately for a lot of
(02:16):
companies, though, that doesn'tnecessarily mean that they can't
still hire outside consultantsand coaches that can help them,
and it's becoming much moremainstream for people to do so,
which is an amazing thing forall of us that serve in that way
.
Dana (02:29):
Yeah, so you support coaches, consultants in the
marketing sphere and we weretalking offline about it's.
It can be a saturated market100%.
Casey Fuerst (02:40):
Yeah, I mean speaking to the it can get.
It's.
It's much more mainstream,right?
The people are used to havingcoaches.
They understand the concept ofbringing in a consultant to help
with a very specific slice ofwhat they're doing, and that
that means that there are justan enormous amount of new
coaches and consultants in themarketplace, especially since
(03:00):
COVID right, everybody we hadthis great resignation.
Everybody left the marketplaceand they said we're going to do
our own thing, and they saw thesuccess of others being coaches
and consultants, and so theygrabbed ahold of that.
Unfortunately, that does meanthere's some out there that are
either not very experienced orthey're just not good at what
they do, and for those of usthat have been around beyond
(03:22):
that amount of time and are goodat this, it means that we've
got to show up in a differentway so that those that are
looking to hire us recognizeimmediately these people are
legit, they have authority inthe space.
Russ (03:35):
And I think what's important to understand, even if
you're not a coach or aconsultant.
This is true in any industry,right, you know?
Somebody sees a way to makemoney and everybody jumps in and
gets on board and there's goodand bad companies.
There's experience and notexperience, and those don't
always mean the same thing.
Experience doesn't necessarilymean good.
So there's.
Please just don't shut this offbecause you're not a coach or
(03:58):
consultant, because there'sdefinitely something to learn
here.
Casey Fuerst (04:01):
Right.
I think a lot of times forsmall business owners coaches,
consultants, whomever you arewhen you get in front of people
and you deliver what you're goodat delivering, they say, oh my
gosh, how did we not know aboutyou sooner?
We're going to tell all of ourfriends.
All of that stuff is happening.
Unfortunately, in this kind ofa market, you can't just rely on
referrals and other people'sgood word to get you new
(04:22):
business.
You need to be getting that onyour own, and the only way to do
that is to look really goodwhen you present yourself, and
the way you talk about yourselfhas to has to mean something.
Dana (04:33):
So for someone that might be listening, that is wanting to
start to get into consulting orwanting to start to be a coach,
that idea of talking aboutyourself in a legitimate way, I
think is really essential.
I remember when I first startedmy business I used to say I'm
starting an HR consultingbusiness.
(04:53):
And when I flip the script andstarted to say I own an HR
consulting business, like thelanguage that we use when we
talk about ourselves is reallyimportant.
Do you see that with the peoplethat you work with as well?
Casey Fuerst (05:09):
Yeah, 100%.
I mean, you know, all of us arehuman and for anyone that has a
reasonable EQ level, right,there's a humbleness that comes
with us and part of that is, youknow, there's this sense of we
need to tell people what wedon't know.
We need to tell people who wearen't, because otherwise they
might think that I'm somethingI'm not and then be disappointed
and it's just not true, right,I mean it's just not you.
(05:31):
When you show up withconfidence and authority and you
speak about yourself as who youare now I am an HR consultant,
I do work that matters for themarketplace then people believe
you, people, they hire you, theywant to be a part of your world
.
Because of that and so often Imean even with really seasoned
(05:52):
coaches and consultants there'sstill some of that in there and
you know that humbleness cancome through when you serve
people, but it shouldn't comethrough in your, in how you sell
yourself.
Russ (06:05):
Now it's important, Casey, because I know you niche down
and work with consultants andcoaches.
But if there's coaches outthere working with all different
kinds of brands and servicesand products and everything else
, so even though there are a tonof people out there doing this,
they have to find their peopleright, Because they work better
(06:27):
with certain people, their idealclients, and they probably help
solve a special problem thatmaybe somebody else doesn't do.
So how do you help peoplefigure out what that problem is
and start attacking and figuringout how to find their people?
Casey Fuerst (06:43):
Gosh.
I just had this conversationyesterday with a consultant.
It was such a commonconversation.
So often we think, oh, I'mafraid to limit my reach, I'm
afraid to limit my message toexactly who I really want to
serve, because if I do that, Imight miss somebody out here on
the fringes, somebody might notthink that I'm for them right.
(07:05):
Here's the example that I liketo use.
I hope this makes sense.
If I want to hire a plumber, Iget online and I Google plumber.
Right, that's just that's whatI do and I hire a plumber.
I don't look for handyman wholists plumbing as one of their
things.
I hire a plumber.
What that means is that thathandyman who's listing his
(07:27):
services as six different thingsis getting no business because
they are there for everyone.
But the plumber is getting alot of business, the electrician
is getting a lot of business,the woodworker is getting a lot
of business.
So it's the same for us.
If I'm for everyone.
If I'm for all small businesses, coaches and consultants will
overlook me because they don'tthink that I'm for them
(07:49):
specifically.
So I get more business bysaying I am for coaches and
consultants than I do if I sayI'm for small businesses.
Is that helpful?
Russ (07:59):
It's 100% helpful, it's simple and it makes absolute
sense 100%.
And so now, now that I knowthat I have to do that, how do I
start to kind of weed out thehow do I get my message?
It's because not everybody'sjust looking for a plumber, like
we're looking for marketinghelp, or how do I.
You know what I mean.
(08:19):
So how do we start to kind offlesh out the rest of that so we
can find more of our people andclone them, and so we can?
Casey Fuerst (08:29):
Yeah, Once you know who you're, for once you've
got that niche kind of narrowedright and it's never going to
be perfect.
You're always going to be kindof widening or narrowing or kind
of.
You know, there's some flex oneither end of that with who you
serve and sometimes you mightdecide to add a completely
separate audience or expand big.
And those are big kind ofmarketing campaigns that we run
(08:50):
that help you get into newmarkets and those kinds of
things.
But assuming that you kind ofset on your niche right, then it
becomes really getting clearabout what their problem is that
you solve for them, right.
This gets into the story brandstuff for us.
This gets into the space wherewe say if someone is hiring a
plumber, right, they're lookingfor not just someone who can fix
(09:13):
their toilet, they're lookingfor someone who isn't going to
make a mess in their house,who's going to be really fast
about it, because nobody wants abroken toilet for more than a
couple of days, right.
So those are the things thatstart to matter when you market
yourself.
So you really have to get intothe brains of the people you
want to serve and say, beyondthe basic service I provide,
what are the other things thatthey're looking for that can
help differentiate me from mycompetition.
Russ (09:37):
It's hard to find the philosophical in that one oh
right.
Yeah, you know what?
It's not fair that pipes justbreak and now you have this mess
in your house.
Casey Fuerst (09:51):
Well, it sucks.
Yeah, it sucks when you're downto one toilet, right?
I mean, we're suburbanAmericans, we're used to two,
three toilets for our family.
If we all have to share one, wefeel like it's a hardship.
Yeah, this example has maybegone a little too far, but for
coaches and consultants, let'sgo back there, right?
For coaches and consultants,they spin in a space of looking
(10:12):
the same as all of their other,all of the other people that
they work with.
So what we do and this is ahuge piece for us is we really
help to differentiate them bytaking those unique solutions
that they're always offering andturning them into their custom
proprietary content.
So let's just take, for example,dana, who works with HR.
You're kind of regurgitating alot of the same solutions all
(10:33):
the time.
Companies are constantly comingto you with here's our problem
and they're nuanced, but they'rebasically the same, right?
It's true for marketing, it'strue for mold, it's true for
everything.
The problem is roughly the sameand because of the work you do
and your specialties, you'vekind of gotten good at
regurgitating those solutions.
You repeat, rinse and repeat.
(10:54):
You say them a lot.
That becomes your kind ofpillar of who you are and it
becomes the thing that you'reknown for.
So what we do is say let's takethat and let's capitalize on it
.
Let's create frameworks, and byframeworks I mean ways of
understanding things that youcan own as your own copyrighted
(11:14):
content and then build from thatthe stuff that it takes to
charge more, to get morebusiness and to scale faster.
Dana (11:25):
I think as a consultant I am in, I think the point in
business that is the perfectclient for you, because I have
been training time for moneyright and I think we might have
talked about this on our calllike time for money and time is
finite and unless you keepraising your prices, your income
(11:49):
is potentially capped or hiringright.
So you get to this point inyour consulting or coaching
business where you're like howdo I scale without cloning
myself?
And it's about cloning yourcontent, your material, to help
(12:11):
scale your business.
Casey Fuerst (12:13):
It is and it's about saying I provide something
different.
So I am no longer trading timefor money, right.
So when I first started in thisindustry and I started kind of
selling my services, I had awonderful mentor and friend and
she was in a similar space andshe said, basically, when I
price myself, I figure that I'mabout $1,000 a day.
(12:34):
That's kind of how she priced.
So if I think something's goingto take me three days, I charge
$3,000.
That's kind of how she figuredout her pricing.
And so I started there, right,I started in this headspace of
like, okay, well, I think that'sgoing to take me so much time,
so therefore I'm going to chargethis amount, and very quickly
realized that is very limitingand it's not quite.
(12:54):
It feels weird to me when someof the services that I provide
are they're getting way morevalue out of than other things
that I do.
For example, we do my agencydoes some graphic design stuff.
You can get graphic designservices for 30, 40 bucks an
hour on Upwork, right.
So we're not competing withthem, we're charging more than
(13:14):
that and that feels weird.
So you know, but some of theconsulting services I'm doing
they're turning that around andmaking hundreds of thousands of
dollars with thoserecommendations that I'm making,
so those ought to be at ahigher price point.
So, instead of that kind oftime for money solution, when
you create your own framework,when you've got your data
(13:36):
framework that says here's how Ido this and here's how your HR,
your group is going to nowadopt my philosophy for doing
this.
You provided such a high levelof value.
You go from trading valuetrading time for money to
trading value for money, andinstead of saying my day is
worth $1,000, you say I'm goingto deliver this.
(13:58):
I don't care how much time ittakes it might take three hours,
it might take 30 hours, butit's worth $5,000.
Dana (14:03):
Instead, I feel like that's a huge conversation in
itself.
That idea of value-basedpricing right, because it's like
I we talk about this instarting a business too.
Right, I have a good idea,everyone's going to want my
service or my product orwhatever because I have such a
good idea, right.
And I think it's like the same.
You can get stuck in the samethought process around
(14:27):
value-based pricing and in that,yeah, my services provide value
and it sounds like it's morethan just saying I think I have
value and I'm going to pricethat way.
It's about communicating whatvalue you provide.
Casey Fuerst (14:42):
Absolutely, and I'm not the expert on
value-based pricing.
There are really good books outthere of which I cannot pull
one off the top of my head rightnow, but there are good books
out there that you can look intohow to kind of figure out what
is that value-based pricing?
For me it's a bit it's looselydefined.
It's defined based on anaverage, whereas other companies
(15:03):
will literally say what do youanticipate earning from this
product?
You're launching this thingyou're doing.
I want 10% of that or I'm goingto charge you what you estimate
to be, and so they're leaninginto a much more technical way
of pricing things versus wheremost coaches and consultants are
(15:26):
.
And that is kind of grapplingwith what is the average of what
I would expect you to earn ormake from the services that I
provide you, and I'm going tokind of figure out a percentage
that I would charge.
Russ (15:41):
So important.
How do people start to figureout this framework and kind of
build up Are there like steps totake?
Are there things to do?
There's got to be a procession.
It's not like can't be random,I can just do this, this and
this.
I've got to do this first andthen what's the next thing?
And how do I build that up?
Casey Fuerst (15:58):
Yeah, so okay, so assume that you are a coach or
consultant.
You've been doing this a while.
You've got your set ofsolutions that you're kind of
leaning into and you're goingthis is what I'm being known for
, this is what people aregetting the most value from.
I want to kind of turn thisinto something that I can lean
into right.
So think about it in terms ofyou know, you've got your smart
goal setting, your everythingdisc, your enneagram, your
(16:19):
Maslow's hierarchy of needs thatyou can immediately imagine a
graphic that goes with it.
You want your stuff to be knownin a similar vein.
That's the kind of thing we'retalking about.
So the first thing that you dois you start to kind of map out
what are the solutions that I'mrepeatedly offering?
What problem do they solve?
Right, and then how might thatgo into serving the people that
(16:41):
I serve better?
So that's kind of step.
One is really trying to do thatand, frankly, it's hard for us
to do by ourselves.
So I have a hard time sittingby myself and saying here's how
I serve my clients and I'm goingto map this out and create a
framework.
It's why we exist right when wecan get on a call with someone
and say to them Russ, tell ushow you work with people and you
spend a half an hour talkingabout.
(17:04):
Well, we typically go in thisprocess.
Here's the things we're lookingfor, here's what we're doing.
We can synthesize that fairlyquickly and say okay, so here's
what I'm hearing.
I'm hearing that you lean intothese three pillars when you do
mold remediation and because ofthat, you're different than the
other guy doing mold remediation, and so we're going to take
that, create a beautifulframework from it and say this
(17:27):
is the reliable remediationmodel for how we serve you.
So it's sometimes not even thatsexy, it's just simple, and
simple is better when people canremember it and go I get it.
Then they're more likely tograb hold of it and reuse it.
So the best kind of frameworksare the ones that you leave
(17:49):
people with.
You come in, you teach it, youteach them how it's going to
make their lives and their jobsbetter and their bottom lines
better, ultimately, right.
And then you walk away and theykeep using it and they keep
going oh yeah, we got toremember that thing.
And when we keep our houseclean and when we keep moisture
out of the air and whatever elsethat looks like we don't have
(18:09):
to hire a bus again.
Russ (18:12):
So how does this manifest itself in most ways?
I mean, is this a webinarprogram?
Is this a coaching thing, anonline coaching?
Is this an e-book?
I mean, how does this manifestfor most people and how they
kind of get that framework?
Casey Fuerst (18:25):
That's a really great question.
So for most coaches andconsultants, what they're doing,
well, let's just use a coachingmodel.
A typical coaching model isthey want more coachees, right?
And they're typically charging,you know, anywhere from $150 to
$500 an hour for coachees tocome in.
That's a one and done kind ofthing.
Those are very hard to scaleand very hard to make a lot of
(18:45):
money on to do that.
Dana, you're nodding.
Dana (18:50):
Yeah, yeah, it's exhausting.
It's exhausting the time youknow one-on-one stuff.
It gets exhausting.
Casey Fuerst (18:56):
Right, and when we start to think about what does
it take to feed my family andhow do I thrive and build a
retirement fund for myself as asolopreneur in doing so, you
quickly realize it's got to bemore than that.
That is just not going to getme where I need to go to just do
those one-and-done kind ofclient engagements.
It's great that you want to dothat and that can definitely be
part of your income.
But there are ways that you canaccelerate that much faster.
(19:19):
One of those ways is takingthat framework that you're using
and turning it into a workshop.
So when coaches have this kindof I'm working with a client
right now.
He's fantastic and, oh my gosh,sitting with him feels like a
masterclass in leadership.
Every time I'm with him, he'sgenius and he pulls these things
out of people and he gets theminspired and he helps them see
themselves differently.
(19:39):
But he's doing that on aone-to-one basis and it's sad to
me, and so what we've done istake what he does, turn it into
a framework, turn it into ahalf-day workshop.
Now he's selling that half-dayworkshop for $5,000 a pop.
So he's doing two of those amonth and he just increased his
monthly income by $10 grand amonth.
And it's the same content everytime he delivers it.
(20:02):
So he doesn't have to do a lotof prep work.
Right, we've created a workbookfor him.
He throws the company logo onit that he's serving, gets them
printed at the FedEx and goes inand delivers, and then he walks
away and he's done, and theyare wowed by all of this and
that program then feeds hiscoaching clients.
Then they're like oh, I hadcoaching with you.
Dana (20:23):
I can also say that type of framework you can do train
the trainer 100% and scale evenfurther.
My business coach owns atraining company and she has
told me she's like I'll trainyou on our programs and then you
can deliver them and that'sjust essentially passive revenue
(20:45):
into your business.
If someone else is trainingyour proprietary content.
Casey Fuerst (20:50):
Doesn't that get you excited?
Like I get goosebumps when Ithink about the coaches that if
they just capitalized on theirgenius they could just scale and
escalate their incomeexponentially very quickly when
they do this kind of a thing.
Dana (21:05):
All right, I want to play devil's advocate a little bit,
because I exist in a world ofself doubt all the time, and so
I and I think I might have saidthis to you at our initial
conversation like but everythingI do is customized for the
client, right?
Or like but what if somethingchanges?
(21:26):
It can still contentproprietary information.
Your genius can still bescalable, right, 100%.
Casey Fuerst (21:36):
Yeah, I mean, and I have the same question,
because I'm like, well, but theyhire me, they want Casey.
They don't want my people, theywant Casey.
It's just not true.
I'm not that good, right, like.
I think that's too often.
There are big chunks of whatyou do that we can carve out and
create that core from, and thecustomization comes in, delivery
later.
So deliver the workshop,deliver the coaching, call about
(21:59):
around your framework and addthe extra as you go and that
becomes the does, become thethings you can charge even more
for because they are you there,they're 100% you.
Russ (22:10):
Well, casey, you are that good.
I mean I've been, I've divedinto the, you know Storybrand
podcasts and stuff to with, andyou know I've learned, and they
say it on every single oneStorybrand guides are the best
marketers in the world.
Casey Fuerst (22:24):
I like to think we are too, but you know there
there's the other good marketersout there.
Russ (22:29):
So what other things can can we be doing as coaches and
consultants to help find ways?
Maybe I don't want to write acourse, or what are some of the
other things that I can do toclone myself and my, my genius,
so that I can at least make alittle bit more money?
Casey Fuerst (22:47):
That's a great question.
You know, I don't know if thisis the direction that you were
wanting me to go with this, butI'm an enormous fan of virtual
assistance.
I think that VAs can make ourthe work that we do so much more
effective and efficient, and Ithink that, for coaches and
consultants, especially whenwe're spending so much time on
the details and in the weeds, wedon't get to develop and create
(23:10):
and deliver content.
And so you know, I'm a huge fanof getting getting somebody on
your team that can help you getthrough the daily tasks so that
you can deliver much moreefficiently.
Yeah, you know I'm going toturn direction a little bit on
you.
I do want to mention, thoughthere's it's really important,
when we're creating our ownmaterials, to we talk about it
as is it inspiration or is itimitation, when we're leaning
(23:33):
into other people's frameworks.
So it's really important thatwe recognize, if we're using
somebody else's framework, thatwe give them credit, and also,
if we're using that to build ourown, that we're doing it
ethically.
So there's there's some justbasic questions that we ask when
we're doing that, and we'rereal careful when, when somebody
(23:54):
else says this is based onPatrick, on Sione's, blah, blah
blah.
We say okay.
So we just want to go throughsome questions with you and make
sure that we're that we'redoing this ethically.
One is are we breaking any laws?
And those laws are fairlystraightforward IP laws are
pretty basic and pretty easy todiscern.
Whether or not we're breakingthe law, does the decision or
(24:15):
action align with yourprofessional values and
principles?
How would you be comfortablewith this decision being, or
action being made public?
So are you okay with peopleknowing that you did that?
And have you asked others,others that are in the business?
Is this something that I feelgood about?
And those kinds of things helpus to discern.
It's a gray space to be able toto use other people stuff and
(24:39):
and own them as our own, and sowe just want to make sure that
when we're doing that with ourclients, that they feel good
about it and that we feel okayabout it.
We're not going to let thingsgo too far into that.
I'm stealing.
We definitely want it to beinspiration, not imitation.
Dana (24:54):
And I think that also ties into the idea of like personal
brand, in terms of if you'rejust taking what someone else is
doing and repackaging it, thenit's not you, it's not, it's not
the, the person that peoplewere drawn to and they first
asked for an initial call.
Casey Fuerst (25:14):
Yeah, and it's hard to write, because if
somebody says to me what makesyou unique, what's different
about you, I might struggle withthat answer.
Sometimes I need to, I needsomeone else to tell me that.
I need someone else toexperience what I'm talking
about and saying this isdifferent from what I'm hearing
out there, and here's why.
So it's not something.
(25:34):
This, this idea of taking whatyou do and turning it into a
framework, is not something thatmost new coaches and
consultants can do well.
It really takes a few years ofpractice and repeat and testing
ideas to get to the point whereyou can own the content yourself
.
Russ (25:50):
So what's the biggest obstacle?
I mean, is it people feelinglike, oh, they're not getting me
?
Is it overcoming the idea that,well, I want to make more money
but I don't want to just besome shill for my workbook?
Or like, what's the biggestobstacle people have to come
overcome to jump into this withboth feet and go, yeah, no, this
(26:10):
is definitely the thing I needto do.
Casey Fuerst (26:13):
Yeah, two things.
One is confidence, right, youknow the self-doubt that Dana
was talking about.
We all have.
We all kind of wonder is itreally good enough to invest in?
That's big, that's the numberone.
And the second thing is justtaking the time to do it.
There's so many people outthere, so many coaches and
consultants that are out therethat are going this sounds
really good.
I'll do that next quarter, I'lldo that next year, right, and
(26:37):
it's like Dana's raised her hand, right.
Yeah, it's chicken and an eggwhich comes first, the doing the
work or making the money, anddoing the work comes first.
Do the work and you see thatmoney come in.
Dana (26:48):
I also think it's important to recognize,
especially in the service thatyou provide, like you are
coaching people through theprocess of building that product
, service, course, class,whatever, and that's so much of
the value is like there's anaccountability, there's a
framework to develop it, andsure you could probably do it on
(27:11):
your own, but it's so mucheasier and so much more
structured and so much morethoughtful and intentional when
you have that guide to work youthrough the process.
Casey Fuerst (27:22):
Absolutely.
We always tell people if youcan do it on your own and you
just need somebody to design itand make it look good, go out to
Upwork and find a designer,because they're cheaper than we
are.
But if you need someone thatcan help download your brain,
turn it into amazing resources,help you see things that you're
not seeing, and do it withinfour to six weeks and have a
product you're ready to sell andwalk out the door with, then
(27:45):
that's us.
Russ (27:46):
That was sales pitchy, sorry, no absolutely, Because I
was just going to say how do westart to present this to our
clients and potential clients?
So, you're the marketing guru.
Now we've got this framework,how do we sell it?
Casey Fuerst (28:02):
That's a great question too.
And again it goes to that onceyou've been in business for two,
three years, you've got anatural pipeline of people that
you've already sold to thatalready know your value.
So you start with them.
So once we've created yourmaterials and let me mention
that 90% of the packages that wedo we also create a landing
page for this new content, so aspace for you to sell it.
(28:23):
Oftentimes we're also creatingemails and stuff that you can
start to kind of talk about it.
Now, sales at this level don'tcome from the internet.
You don't just get peopleclicking buy now on your $5,000
half day workshop.
It does require personalconnections, sale, selling it
yourself.
So you do need to be a networkor be somebody who can get in
front of people, be confidentabout how you talk about it.
(28:45):
Once you have all thoseresources to say to the people
that you've already served hey,I'm launching this new thing
that I know is going to meetyour need.
And let's lean back intoStorybrand a little bit here and
say, when you know the problemthat's problems that they have
and you do because you'vealready served them you again go
back to those problems and yousay, hey, when we work together.
(29:06):
Last time I remember you talkingabout this How's that going?
That's number one.
And then you know, based ontheir answer, you say you know
what.
I really would love to get backin there and do this new thing
that we're doing and see if wecan dial this up a little bit
for you and get some betterresults.
How's that sound?
You know those kinds ofconversations.
First of all, you have to bebrave enough to have them and
(29:27):
this is a good reminder for meto like.
I still struggle with this andyou've got to be brave enough to
be in front of your idealclients, not just those that
have paid you lower amounts inthe past.
But you've got to say who aremy ideal clients?
Who's willing to pay what Ineed to charge?
And I'm going to get in frontof them and be brave.
Russ (29:46):
Now, beyond our existing clients and people we've served
in the past, I would think thatthere's got to be a framework
for building a funnel.
You know getting new emailaddresses, new clients, putting
out value added information sothat people start getting.
I mean, that's I see it workingwithin the story of brand
(30:07):
framework.
Right, I'm in the funnel, youknow I'm getting the emails.
I'm listening to the podcast.
I'm, you know, working with acoach now.
So finding ways to do thatwithin the business is also some
of the work that needs to bedone, right.
Casey Fuerst (30:24):
So I'm going to be contrary on this, russ.
I know that Storybrand andothers really lean into lead
generators and sales funnels andall of this, and in theory they
work.
In five years ago theydefinitely worked.
The problem is that everybody'sdoing it now, and so it's
(30:46):
harder and harder to build alead generator that can actually
get you leads, and for thecoach and consultant space it's
even harder.
They're everywhere.
So that is that is.
Don't tell the Storybrand folksthat I said this.
It's really tricky to do thatand expect really great results.
So I say to coaches andconsultants and this is
(31:07):
specifically for coaches andconsultants you have to tap into
your network, you have to tapinto your networking and you've
got to niche down.
You've got to narrow youraudience.
If I'm, if I'm, an executivecoach, it's tempting to be able
to say I serve executives acrossthe United States, and you
might.
You're going to get much bettertraction, like when you niche
before, if you say I serveexecutive coaches in my city,
(31:31):
and going to networking eventswith those executives becomes
much more practical.
And being face to face.
Hiring coaches and consultantsis oftentimes dependent upon
either a strong referral or apersonal experience with them,
and so you've got to find waysto have those things and then
they become the lead.
So it's still a lead generationof sorts.
(31:52):
It's still that funnel, butit's not all digital.
Dana (31:58):
I have two thoughts on this.
I feel like the sales funnel,email marketing.
It's very easy to fall intothat trap of doing what everyone
else is doing, like someonewill tell you oh, I got this
much in sales, so you should bedoing it without really thinking
through like, does this workfor my business, what I'm
selling, my network, mycommunity.
(32:19):
But I also think it's importantto recognize in that example of
executive coaching.
Russ and I met in a B&I andguess it might be a little bit
culty, but we often say, likeyour network is your net worth.
So if you're networking withexecutives in your city, they
network with other executives,so let them network for you with
(32:45):
your ideal client, right?
Casey Fuerst (32:47):
I think that's brilliant, yeah, and I think
that you can start.
You have to start somewhere, sostart local.
Start where you're at start,with the people you have the
easiest access to.
Russ (32:58):
You know and that goes with anything Like when we first
started, you know, my localservice business I thought cast
a widest net as possible andevery new business owner thinks
that I will work for food.
I mean, you're literallyholding up that side.
And then I realized, oh wait, Ijust I need to own my backyard.
I need to be the only personthat comes up when somebody in
(33:20):
my town or city searches andthen we start dialing out for
the surrounding area andeverything else.
It's the exact same concept andit seems counterintuitive.
I will drive 70 miles to getwhat?
Now, just focus in on that.
That's closest and easiest.
It will come.
Casey Fuerst (33:38):
Yeah, it's the same.
When we post social content too.
You know we post on social.
Let's just use LinkedIn as anexample.
When I post on LinkedIn, if I'mmarketing it to all small
business owners or all coachesand consultants, even that
message can be really wide, andit needs to be wide in order for
it to be for all of them.
When I start putting on paperwho are the top 10 people I want
(34:00):
to work with and I craft mymessages to them, the likelihood
that they connect with me ismore.
But also it's amazing how otherpeople connect more.
The same people I didn't reallyrealize needed to hear that
message are going that that'sspecific.
I really like that.
So it's true there too.
Russ (34:19):
So, to kind of get in, I want to talk a little bit about
Story of Rain.
I know we did it last time, butI've spent more time learning
about it since then.
So, yeah, I've loved it too.
I mean it just makes so muchsense.
But be warned movies are ruinedforever.
They really are.
Dana (34:38):
They really are.
Russ (34:39):
I just figured oh my gosh, I'm not connected to this
because they didn't follow thestupid framework, right.
So okay, now as a cultureconsultant, and how can we start
to kind of figure out not justthat we know the problems that
we solve, but how do we start tofocus in on the right things,
like we always want to solvethat external problem, right,
(34:59):
this is what I do.
We think we're selling thatexternal problem, but people buy
on the internal and thephilosophical.
So whether we're business tobusiness or business to consumer
, how are we kind of focusing inon some of those things and
kind of changing our mindset sothat our customers, our clients
(35:20):
don't just cut us out as noise,they actually go?
Oh, I see myself in that now.
Casey Fuerst (35:25):
Yeah.
So let me back up and give youthe 10 second education for your
listeners who aren't asfamiliar with StoryBrand.
So in StoryBrand we talk aboutwe have to solve a problem in
order to be the solution thatthey choose.
And so in StoryBrand we talkabout there's an external
problem, an internal problem anda philosophical statement.
An external problem is astatement of fact I need my lawn
(35:46):
mowed.
That is a fact.
I have a problem my lawn is amowed.
I need my lawn mowed.
That's an external problem.
The internal problem is I wantmy lawn to look better than my
neighbors, and internal problemsare much more important than
external problems.
People will pay more and buymore often when you solve an
internal problem than when yousolve an external problem.
(36:08):
So if a suburban household getstwo postcards in the mail from
lawn care companies and one sayswe mow lawns and the other says
we make your lawn look betterthan your neighbors, the second
one will always get morebusiness, okay.
Russ (36:23):
What about the one that says we give you back time to
spend with your family by givingyou a great, best looking lawn
in the neighborhood?
Casey Fuerst (36:30):
Great transition.
That is a philosophicalstatement, right.
That's yay, good job.
That's where we name the kindof ought should deserve.
What's just plain wrong aboutwhat you're dealing with now
that kind of thing that peoplecan rally around.
And the very best philosophicalstatements are the ones that
people might even disagree with.
They're a bit divisive becauseagain, it tells people who
(36:51):
you're for and who you're notfor.
And when you can rally peopleto your cry lawns, your lawn
needs to look better than yourneighbors.
My husband would reject thatpostcard outright because he's
like forget that Laws are notmeant to.
He's a farm boy, so he's likewe ought to leave the leaves on
the lawn, we don't need water orwhatever.
(37:11):
He would reject that.
But those who agree with it,who live in these neighborhoods
where they're competing patternsin their lawns, those people
would be drawn to that and getmore business and that's better
for the business owner, right.
So philosophical statements arepowerful when you can get them
right.
That's the space where you saypeople deserve clean drinking
(37:34):
water, right In today's, in thecoaching world.
Let's say you are a, let's sayyou're a family I'm struggling
with the right word a lifestylecoach, somebody who helps people
get balanced in their lives,right.
Making a statement like thehealthiest people have lifestyle
coaches, that's kind ofdivisive.
(37:56):
Like I don't have a lifestylecoach, I'm a fairly healthy
person, right.
But for a really health nut,they might be drawn to that and
say, oh, now that's a thing I'mmissing.
I can up level myself bygetting a coach right.
So there's a difference there.
So those are the kinds ofthings that you're talking about
.
For coaches and consultants,let's say you know there's that
was an example of a lifestylecoach.
(38:17):
For an executive coach, right.
The statement can be somethinglike being an executive is
lonely, you sit alone a lot andyou don't have that sounding
board or that venting space.
You don't have someone guidingyour thinking.
An executive coach can reallyhelp you take it to the next
level and dial it up with howyou serve the company that you
serve.
Russ (38:39):
I love it.
I mean, I'm just starting tochange my mind and how I look at
things so that I cancontinually look for those
internal and philosophicalproblems to be communicating
better with my clients andpotential clients.
So, media posts, website,everything, email marketing, all
(38:59):
the places that we communicatewith people, videos that we
create, everything else, becauseI just honestly, it was a
five-hour audible listen and I,you know, I did it multiple
times because I was just like no, no, no, yes, yes, yes, yes,
yes it makes sense, right?
Casey Fuerst (39:17):
The great thing about those kinds of messages is
we can test them.
They're not like your logo andthey have to stay the same for
10 years.
If you're finding it's notworking, test a different twist
on it and see if it connectswith people differently.
Russ (39:29):
Casey, how can people connect with you, find more
about kind of working, gettingthis framework, so that they
cannot be exhausted all the timeby just putting themselves out
there and only working withclients?
What can people do and wherecan they find you?
Casey Fuer (39:47):
TicTacToMarketingcom and there's a set up a call
button on there.
I'm very, very I love doingconsult calls, whether it
results in business or not, it'sjust super fun to get to know
your business and how you workand see if I can offer some
value to you in that shortamount of time.
And if you're interested inworking together, then we can
talk about that during the calltoo.
Russ (40:07):
I love talking with marketing folks.
I love talking with you, casey.
You're one of my favorites.
If you haven't heard episode118 with Casey, it's called
Understanding Marketing.
Go back and check that out andtake this one and share it with
some people that need to hear it, because this is just it's not
real hard, but sometimes,working through it, you need a
(40:30):
guide.
Yeah, and Casey, you're a greatguide.
Casey Fuerst (40:34):
You're the best.
Russ (40:35):
Thanks for being here.
Thanks for our listeners forbeing here.
Share this episode, like it,love it.
Send us some criticism, I don'tcare, it's not personal, it's
just business.
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