The Office Called, Your 1990's Management Style Wants Its Policy Back

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Why do employees really leave, and what makes them stay? Beyond the tired generational stereotypes and outdated management philosophies, there's a profound shift happening in how we think about work, loyalty, and flexibility.

Amazon Prime Day highlights an interesting workplace dilemma – should companies block shopping sites during major sales events? The answer reveals deeper truths about trust, productivity, and workplace surveillance. When organizations implement restrictive policies to control the behavior of a small percentage of employees, they create environments where even their best talent feels micromanaged and untrusted.

We explore a fascinating case study from Uline, where the CEO published a scathing critique of "nomadic" young workers who leave before their two-year anniversary. Rather than examining what might be missing from their own workplace culture, leadership blamed external factors like parental health insurance, stimulus checks, and modern parenting styles. This disconnect exemplifies how companies often look everywhere except inward when addressing retention problems.

The conversation shifts to workplace flexibility, examining how progressive organizations are focusing on energy management rather than time management. By acknowledging that productivity happens in natural flows rather than evenly across an arbitrary workday, companies can create environments where employees deliver their best work while maintaining personal well-being. As one host puts it: "If you're not giving people a reason to stay, they're going to leave. Cry about it, Karen."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Had you actually read the email, you would know that
the podcast you are about tolisten to could contain explicit
language and offensive content.
These HR experts' views are notrepresentative of their past,
present or future employers.
If you have ever heard mymanager is unfair to me.
I need you to reset my HRportal password, or Can I write

(00:24):
up my employee for crying toomuch?
Welcome to our little safe zone.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Welcome to Jaded HR, the podcast by two HR
professionals who want to helpyou get through the workday by
saying everything you'rethinking, but say it out loud.
I'm Warren.
I'm Cece, all right, and I'mgoing to keep that intro in
there, as I saw it went down 5,4, 3, 2, 1, and we were still
talking, so I'm going to keepthat in there.
That person is not one of myfavorite people on earth, but

(01:18):
anyhow.
So yeah, you know, we were justtalking off air.
It seems like there was no bigdeal or drama or anything from
the SHRM conference.
I didn't see any really I don'tknow what demonizing posts
about SHRM 2025.
I didn't see anything terrificeither.

(01:39):
I didn't see, and SHRM didn'tput a lot of stuff.
I did look on LinkedIn a littlebit.
I didn't spend a lot of stuff.
I did look on linkedin a littlebit.
I didn't spend a lot of time onit but to see what sherm was
posting about sherm 2025, and Ididn't see it was very quiet a
heck of a lot I did see somestuff.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
I did see some positive stuff on reddit.
People said they got stuff outof it.
I was even on the, thesubreddit for hr, and someone
was talking about some stuff.
They learned about successionand talent management and I'm
like, ooh, I want to share yournotes and I was trying to, but
no, I was just going to say.
I just think that for the mostpart, people, people had a good
time.
So yay.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, we were also talking off the fair that I
hadn't listened to any podcastsin about a month, but I listened
to our episode from thebeginning of June this evening
on my way home and, boy, Iuploaded the wrong episode with
the edits and it was partiallyedited and then the intro comes
like midways.
I didn't do my job, so theaudio quality sucked on that one

(02:39):
, and it was.
It was really badly done.
But one that came to mindspeaking of SHRM, and this
popped in my head because youwanted to go to the PSYOPs Is
that what it's called, yeah,convention?
And I was like, whatorganization out there is there
that could potentially replaceSHRM?

(03:00):
You know you have Hacking HR,you have, oh, you have.
There's a couple of contendersout there, but I think that
might be a topic for anotherepisode.
And, dear listener, go to theshow notes and send us a text
and give us your ideas of whatyou think might be a replacement

(03:22):
for SHRM is.
I was thinking you have youknow what, what is out there
that that could replace SHRM?
So, anyways, we will, we willtalk about that, but I'm.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
I am very biased towards PSYOP, but yeah, just
because it's, it's PSYOP theSociety for Industrial
Organizational Psychology soit's very science-based, which I
like, but it is not SIOP, theInternational Pediatric Oncology
Congress.
That is not the SIOP I'mtalking about.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
I know nothing about pediatric oncology.
Yeah, that's something awful tothink about.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, exactly.
But no, I just did a reallyquick Google.
It came up number one.
I was like I should probablyclarify.
But yeah, I should probablyclarify.
But yeah, I like it.
It's more of a scientificpractice than some of the.
I think some of the stuff youtalk about, warren, where it's
like the fluffy stuff, thefeel-good stuff, like the stuff

(04:19):
that makes me roll my eyesbecause it feels like a
pseudoscience, but PSYOP makesit feel like it's an actual
science.
So that's why maybe that's theanswer.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I might check into some of that, as that seems
really, really cool.
But yeah, you were mentioningthat in that episode I was
listening to on the way hometoday.
I was like, oh okay.
Well, there's two big thingssort of happening in the world
right now, and one being today,July 8th, is the start of Amazon
Prime week, so I am guilty ofshopping online.

(04:53):
I bought myself it, so it wason Prime from like $45 to $17.
I do some woodworking on theside.
I got a new pocket hole jig, soI went online.
I got got a new pocket hole jig,so I went online.
I got myself a new pocket holejig.
It's a Vivor, whatever thebrand is.
I've had a couple of thosethings.
It's Chinese.

(05:14):
It's not total crap, but it's,you know, for the price.
I'll take it, and I needed anew one anyway, and at $17, if
it lasts me a project or two,I'll be happy.
That's why I bought for myself.
I bought one thing on AmazonPrime today.
I did bookmark a couple thingsor put it in a wish list to
share with my wife see if we'regoing to be interested in it.

(05:35):
But how about you?
Did you do your online shoppinginstead of working today?

Speaker 3 (05:40):
First of all, I just need to ask are you like the
real world version of ronswanson?

Speaker 2 (05:46):
oh, many ways I am, except he had an awesome head of
hair.
I used to claim myself as alibertarian, I don't anymore,
but yeah, and strangely enough,watching parks and rec, we wore
a lot of the same wardrobe.
The exact same like long sleeveand I.
The brand is Hagar long sleevepolos and I had some of the

(06:07):
exact same ones that Ron Swansonhad.
And I remember one time we'rewatching an episode and my wife
says you're wearing the exactsame shirt as he is and I was
yeah.
So yeah, I, I can be a bit of aRon Swanson.
I'm actually in the processright now of over.
When I was in the hospital I wassupposed to be building a shed.

(06:27):
I bought all the wood andeverything to build a shed.
Well, not, I thought I boughtall the wood.
The kit company shorted me andI've been running to Home Depot
a few times, but which is notclose to me, but anyways, been
doing that and so I didn't do it.
Memorial Day weekend, I did asmuch as I could.
Fourth of July weekend, until Iran out of some needed lumber.

(06:48):
But yeah, I love, I likewoodworking, I like doing things
with my hands, I like gettingout there and doing stuff.
Yeah, I could definitely becompared to Ron Swanson.
I identify with him very much.
Put those tears back in youreyes where they belong.
Put those tears back in youreyes where they belong.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Put them back in your eyes where they belong.
As for Amazon Prime, I didn't.
Well, I did some shopping, so Imagically passed CC.
I was actually looking out forfuture CC because I did one of
those things where I had thingsin my shopping cart and I
thought I ordered it but Iforgot.
So, anyway, I remember today,and like half the things or most
, I would say like all of thethings were marked down that

(07:29):
were already in my shopping cart, so I was like perfect.
And then nothing reallyentertaining though.
I just bought some new clothesfor Bean and she got a new
electric toothbrush too.
So yeah, I know we're brushingteeth and we're almost walking.

Speaker 2 (07:44):
So she's a big girl I was going to ask Almost there
walking.
Walking doesn't last longbefore it's running.
And then that's.

Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah.
So, here's a funny story.
I got up out of bed thismorning and I went down the
stairs and my knee started torandomly click.
And I'm like, why is my kneeclicking as I go down the stairs
?
And then I'm like, is this apermanent thing, or is this a
thing that's just going to pass?
So I'm like I need to get myown physical health under
control because I feel like therunning for her is going to

(08:15):
happen soon and I need to catchup.
So yes, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
I remember that age very well.
Yeah, let's see.
Yeah, well, here's somethingNow.
I worked at a company once thatPrime Day, when it was only one
day, once upon a time, theywould block Amazon from being
able to do it at work.
And from Thanksgiving on,anything retail would be blocked

(08:46):
from work Really, yeah,especially Black Friday, and
things would be blocked from thework computers.
I actually see that as worsethan allowing it First if people
are not doing their job.
I looked at PrimeList for awhile and then I saw the pocket

(09:06):
whole jig.
I was like, oh, 17 bucks sold.
I didn't spend hours lookingand looking and then I didn't
look after I got that.
But anyways, I think by blockingthose sites you're doing more
harm than good.
What are you going to do?
You're going to reach and grabyour cell phone, which is less
efficient, and you're gonna bedoing the exact same thing on

(09:29):
your cell phone.
If you're having a problem withpeople spending too much time
shopping online, you handle thaton a case-by-case basis, but if
if it's, you know, cyber Mondayor Amazon Prime Day or whatever
it is, let it go to a certainextent.
I mean, don't let someone spendall day shopping online.

(09:53):
But for me today it was nodifferent than any other time.
I get a bug up my butt to say,oh, I want to buy this, I want
to buy that, I go online and Ibuy it.
To buy that, I go online and Ibuy it.
Yeah, it really was.
But I guess I spent a littlebit my 10 minutes browsing, 15
minutes browsing, before I foundthis is.
I didn't know it was for saleand I didn't know it was on sale
, I should say, and I was like,okay, then that's, that was the

(10:17):
extent of my shopping.
But but what do you think aboutblocking shopping sites like
during either?
That's so stupid.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
I mean mean, like you said, if people are going to do
it, they're going to do it.
So and I I highly doubt thatthe majority of people are going
to be spending like five, six,seven hours a day on the clock
shopping.
If anything, it might be like10 minutes here, 15 minutes
there.
It's just such a small windowof time.

(10:45):
I highly doubt it's reallydamaging productivity and
efficiency that much.
I think it would be a waste oftime and it would be like it
kills morale too.
It just feels like big brotheris babysitting you and you're
not trusted.

Speaker 2 (11:01):
Exactly, it's a morale issue too.
Yeah, I didn't think of it thatway, but yes, I would be.
I'd be irritated.
I don't remember beingirritated when this other
company I worked for wasblocking those sites.
Because what did I do?
I picked up my phone and wentto do it on my phone.
Yeah, you know, and like I said, it takes you for me as an old

(11:21):
geezer type guy, it takes melonger to shop online with my
phone than it does on mycomputer.
I can knock something out realquick there, but anyhow, that
was another thing.
But another milestone datepassed.
Since we last recorded, it'sbeen 20 years of podcasts on

(11:41):
Apple, of podcasts on Apple.
That was June 28th 2025.
Steve Jobs announced at theWorldwide Developers Conference
that Apple would be supportingpodcasts through iTunes.
And if you YouTube the video ofSteve Jobs announcing it and
he's talking about he'sbasically introducing the world

(12:02):
to podcasts, even though they'vebeen around before then.
And he opens up and he puts upin what?
What five second blurb does heget?
He opens it up to adam curry,who's known as the pod father.
Now, if you, if you're of my age, in my generation, you remember
adam curry as the mtv vj in the80s and 90s.

(12:22):
But now, now he's the podfather, he has like the first
RSS feed for podcasts,apparently, or something like
that.
But he's on.
Steve Jobs clicks the button toplay a podcast and it's Adam
Curry bitching about his Mac andhow bad it is and everything,
and so you only get five secondsof it.
Some people say it was anaccident.

(12:44):
Adam Curry says it was donedeliberately, as a jab
apparently at the Macdevelopment team that Steve Jobs
was not happy with at the time.
Yeah, so we will never know,but it brought me to think.

Speaker 3 (12:58):
I believe that Because now that we know a
little bit more about how wellokay, like Steve Jobs is was a
brilliant person, but we alsonow have a little more of about
how well okay, like steve jobsis a was a brilliant person, but
we also now have a little moreof an inkling of his leadership
style, which I would say is alittle unorthodox and, yes, you
know, not a work environmentthat I would like to work under,
but I would say that that ishighly calculated because that

(13:18):
seems like something he would doand steve jobs is such a quirky
individual.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
You know the story that sticks out in my mind his
personal secretary was late towork one day because her car
wouldn't start, so he instantlybought her a brand new car and
it was something like expensive.
I forget what it was and saidnow never be late to work again
and I will never be, late towork.

Speaker 3 (13:42):
I would never.
If I was his assistant.
I would never be late to workagain.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
If my boss just bought me a brand new car, I
would be like you know what?
True.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Touche.
You bought my loyalty.
I have a price and you found it.
But it got me thinking becausehe announced it in June of 2005,
june 28th of 2005.
And it was the next iterationof the iTunes that allowed the
podcast.
But it got me thinking to thefirst podcast I would listen to,

(14:17):
and I've never been to Appleperson.
I've never had iPod or anythinglike that.
I did have, oh gosh, what arethey called the iPod minis, the
thing that was like a one inchsquare thing back in the day.
I got it as a gift or somethinglike that and I want to find it
.
I want to see what music is onthat thing here, whatever 30
years later or whatever it is,but anyway, so it's around

(14:39):
somewhere.
But the thing is, if I have acharger for it, it's a whole
nother thing.

Speaker 3 (14:43):
You can find anything on eBay.
Right now I'm tracking down.
It's not that hard to trackdown, honestly, I just need to
find one and buy it.
But I have all these mini DVtapes.
They look like mini VHSs is whatthey look like when I was in
high school this is late 90s,early 2000s.
I was really into video editingand video stuff Before content

(15:05):
creation was a thing.
I was leading the way and Ihave all these tapes that I
uncovered during moving and Iwas like these tapes have so
much footage of me from highschool and also projects I did,
projects I edited.
There's also like just funstuff I did with friends and I'm

(15:28):
dying to get it.
So the only way I think I can doit is if I go on eBay and buy
an old Handycam that had themini DVs and I can hook it up to
my computer and extract theaudio, because otherwise you go
on these other companies likeLegacy Box and stuff and it's
for $10 per tape which you'relike that doesn't sound bad.

(15:48):
But then I'm thinking about itand I'm like I don't know what's
on these tapes, like this couldbe like 10 seconds of footage.
I'm like going to pay $10 for10 seconds of footage, you know.
So I need to find a way to doit myself.
It's going to be more costeffective.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
But everything's on ebay, all old electronics.
I have my.
Actually my wife and I had thatsame conversation.
I have our old videotape in it.
I I don't know what type ofcassette it is anymore, but I've
got a box of those cassettes oflike the kids growing up and
and things like that and I Iwant to get them digitized
somehow.
Maybe I'll find a way toconnect it to my computer so I
can download and do it myself,versus paying Legacy Box or

(16:29):
someone like that.
That would be pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
I just want to go down like a random.
This has nothing HR related,more just like a huh moment.
I was on Reddit and I'm in asub, like I'm in a subreddit
called Gen X, and this personposted, as Gen Z, like these
movie clips, like movie stillsof it was can't hardly wait,

(16:55):
clueless, and I want to say 10things I hate about you.
And all of the freeze frameswere from teen parties, like
house parties.
All of the freeze frames werefrom teen parties, like house
parties.
And you know, this person saidwas this real or was this just
Hollywood making things up,because I'm Gen Z and I've never
been to a house party?

(17:15):
And blah, blah, blah.
And I had a moment of like, ohno, like I'm just thinking,
thinking yes, they were real.
We all just kind of printed outa map quest page and, like went
to random houses that we heardfrom other people, like we
didn't know whose house that was.
We just showed up and had agreat time, like these were all

(17:36):
real.
And I'm like now thinking, ohmy god, is it true that gen z
doesn't do that anymore?

Speaker 2 (17:42):
no, no, that's crazy.
I don't think they do.
I really don't think they do.
I, you know, before MapQuestand things like that, it was
just you would show up somewhereand I don't know how you find,
or out here in the sticks, whereare the bonfire parties?
Just in the back of a farmsomewhere.
And next thing you know, yougot 200 drunk teenagers out

(18:05):
there and how the hell you knewabout it and where to go and
when I I couldn't tell you.
I guess you know the rumor millwas pretty strong or what have
you the the gossip, but yeah,doing things.
I remember I was at a bonfireparty, it was somewhere, and I
had a two liter bottle ofSeagram's golden wine cooler.

(18:30):
It's like the white claw, thepre the predecessor of white
claw, and you've got to look upthe old Bruce Willis commercials
of him doing Seagram's goldenwine cooler commercials.
But it was a two liter bottleof it and I'm walking around,
I'm lit with that stuff and thepolice show up and there must
have been like 20 police show upand there's like 200 kids, and

(18:53):
so I lived on the other side ofthe woods so I didn't, I just
ran.
I didn't have to take the roadto to get home.
So and I knew, knew the woodspretty darn well that could get
there through the night andthings like that.
So the things you would do backthen that you can't do now,
it's amazing.
In college I didn't even finishmy podcast, so we'll get back to

(19:14):
that.
But in college in Greenville,north Carolina, then I was
walking home drunk as a skunkunder 21 years old and I had a
super big gulp cup full of beer.
Heading back to my house from aparty and a police officer
shines his mega white light atme.
He doesn't even get out of thecar, he just gets on the little
bullhorn thing, the speaker andthe whatever out of the car.

(19:38):
He says pour it out.
And I just poured it out.
He said have a good night andthat's it.
That's all there was.
Now in Greenville kids gettickets and they get busted for
drinking and public intoxicationand open containers and things
like that.
I'm like as long as you weren'tdoing something actively doing
something stupid in the ninetiesthey didn't care.

(20:01):
You know it was like, okay,just just go.
But nowadays they're they'repretty strict on that stuff.
So it is a different world.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
So anyway, poor Gen Z , no house parties, and they
missed the work in an office, acollaborative environment, five
days a week and I feel a littlebad for them.
I do.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Well, gen Z, I'll go back to the podcast.
I swear.
But, Gen Z, I saw a thing on Idon't remember where if it was
Reddit or if it was LinkedIn orsomething like that.
They're now calling what Iwould term a vacation, a micro
retirement.
Google, real quick, microretirement, I'm taking a micro
retirement or whatever.

(20:43):
That's really funny and I'mlike yeah, it's called.
It's called a vacation.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
It's called PTO man yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
What is micro?
What is?
I Googled it Fast Company,which is another one of those
shitty shitty news sitesclickbait, everything.
What is micro retirement?
The latest inside the latestGen Z trend First, taking
deliberate short-term breaksfrom your career to focus on
personal interests and goals.
It's a growing trend among GenZ and millennials seeking to

(21:13):
prioritize well-beingexperiences over traditional
concepts of working continuouslyuntil a single lengthy
retirement period to end theircareer.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
I don't understand.
That's literally just like awellness vacation.
Like unplugging to work onsomething on the side.
Don't we do that?
I don't understand the concept.

Speaker 2 (21:37):
Are they taking long spans of time.
What I saw was they took thisperson.
The first thing I saw before Ijust googled this was they took
a two-week micro retirement.
I'm like that's called avacation dude.
But some of the reading onlineright here right now it says
some may or may not be employersupported and things like that.

(21:57):
To prevent burnout, focus oncreativity, innovation etc.

Speaker 3 (22:01):
But no good for you.
If you want to take a coupleweeks off to build a something
in your backyard, then go, do itlike cool I will say I have my.
My current company ispermissive pto, like we don't
have accruals unless you'rehourly.
There's different accruals, butbut yeah, like we, we do
permissive policy and I've beenvery on the fence about it

(22:24):
because you know you readresearch that says if you do
permissive, people don't takethe time they need off yes but I
will say I think my team and Iwork in HR but I feel like our
leadership does really good byleading by example and using it
and going on time and liketelling, like, like I hate to
say granting permission, butyeah, they are.
They're granting permission byexample and I love it.

(22:47):
I am now all for it, but Ithink it only works when your
leadership is ready for it andcan actually lead by example.
But I would love to take a twoweek micro retirement and go to
I don't know.
I would love to work on being amermaid, so I will go to a

(23:07):
resort somewhere and just sit onthe beach.
That's my micro retirement.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
But here's the second search result Gen Z stupidly
claims to have invented microretirement, and then it goes on
to say Gen Z is claiming it andtaking vacations, anyway.
So I'll get on for that.

Speaker 3 (23:27):
That does remind me of an episode of Parks and
Recreation where she's likeyou've had soy milk, you have
almond milk, now it's beef milk.
That's what it was, and she waslike it's fucking milk.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
I haven't watched Parks and Rec forever.
I need to watch that.
It's so funny.
I'll go ahead back topodcasting.
I was trying to think of whatwas the first podcast you
listened to.
Do you remember, damn?

Speaker 3 (23:57):
So the first one that comes to mind that I listened
to religiously was a now defunctpodcast called an acquired
taste, where it was three womendjs, like radio personalities,
on a major thing and they theirown side project was.
They just did a podcast withthe three of them and they're
all kind of like have weirdinterests and like you know

(24:21):
different things that I reallyresonated with and I would
listen to them religiously.
So an acquired taste podcastRIP.
Another one to the podcastgraveyard.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, the first one, and I'm going to give credit to
Patrick, our first co-host fromJDHR.
The first one it was 2014.
It was cereal and he wastalking about that and that's
pre itunes and I can.
I can remember going on to theserial website to have to
download the episodes and thenwhen you wanted episodes because

(24:57):
I didn't know about rss feeds Iwould just go to whatever
website of whichever podcast Iwas listening to at the time to
download them and then I'd playthem on my music player,
whatever I was using at thattime.

(25:19):
But I really connected withSerial on a different level
because my first job out ofcollege I lived in Maryland and
it referenced so many places Iknew between Baltimore and
Patuxent Parkway and PatuxentRiver Park and those areas.
I could sit there even thoughit's 2014,.
I left there in 2001.
I could sit there and stillpicture those places.
I've been these places thatthey're talking about in the,

(25:42):
the serial podcasts and thingslike that, and so I got hooked
on the serial and then I I thinktwo years later they had the
next one.
I never listened to the oneafter the.
The second one, oh is berg, wasit?
Bergdahl was the second one?
I think so anyways, but I can'tremember any of the other
podcasts I was listening toaround that time frame.

(26:02):
But we, we would talk about aserial and that's what Patrick
got me into podcasts, and thatwas the first one we talked
about and I listened to and Ilistened to a few others, but I
couldn't remember a single titleof what any of those were from.
Is work, career, hr related?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, Just a roundabout way we're going to
get there.
So I was thinking about this acouple weeks ago how, when I was
in high school, I was, I wasn'tathletic, but I was into video,

(26:38):
journalism, I was intonewspaper, I was into yearbook,
I was into, like, creatingthings, and I always wanted to
create right.
And for the longest time Ithought that I was going to be.
I wanted to be a radio DJ and Idon't know why I just wanted to
be an on-air personality.
And you know then to the pointwhere I would go.

(27:00):
We would, as a group foryearbook, we would go to these
high school publishingcompetitions or conventions or
whatever, and I would separatefrom the group to go into the
radio broadcasting like area.
And now I'm sitting here and I'mlike, okay, so radio is dying.
But now, like I'm on a podcastand I'm doing podcasts, I'm

(27:22):
doing a podcast at for my job,I'm on a podcast and I'm doing
podcasts, I'm doing a podcastfor my job.
And I was thinking about all ofthe weird ways where we have
these loves as children or youngadults, of things that we want
to do when we grow up and maybethose things don't manifest the
way we think they do, but as weget older they manifest in
different ways.

(27:42):
So like HR by day, podcastingby night, kind of thing, and I
think about that because, okay,I have a 15-month-old.
I also think about that withMiss Rachel and for anyone who
has like a toddler age, children.
You know, miss Rachel, she isthe end-all, be-all, she is her
third parent, but she's likeanother one where I look at who

(28:05):
was a woman who wanted a singingcareer and like if you go into
Spotify, you can find her wholealbums.
She wanted like to, you know,be a solo artist.
It didn't pan out and she wentinto teaching and now somehow
she found herself as Miss Rachel, where she is singing, where
she is performing, where she iscreating.
And I just thought that waslike interesting that you know,

(28:29):
we go into these careers thathopefully, like we might not be
doing exactly what we wanted towhen we grow up, but we're doing
elements that still bring usjoy that we had when we were
children or when we were youngadults.
So anyway, that was, yeah,that's my deep thoughts for the
night.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
So anyway, that's a lot of we've been all over the
place, but that's a good thing,I think.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
We're riding the ADHD train.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Backwards, yeah, backwards.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
And it's on fire.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Not for me today, but , yeah, I know that feeling.
So the HR story that I actuallyprepared and I've had this on
my show notes since May.
Actually, the date of thisarticle is May 7th.
It's from Eric Meyer and if youdon't subscribe to his

(29:27):
newsletter, please do you followhim on LinkedIn.
Subscribe to his newsletter.
It's really, really good.
So here's the situation.
There was a couple.
They used to work together.
The husband apparently gotterminated.
It had been terminated.

(29:47):
After the relationship ended,he became hostile and began

(30:12):
sending threatening messages tothe plaintiff, but she never
reported them to her employer.
Roughly a year later, theassailant rented a car, put on
his old company sweatshirt and afreezer suit and waited outside
the workplace.
When an employee opened thebadge access door, he followed
them inside.
He located the plaintiff at herdesk, doused her with gasoline
and set her on fire.

(30:32):
Oh my gosh.
She ended up suing, saying thather company didn't, that they
were negligent and they didn'tprotect her.
She said because the companyallowed ex-employees to keep
their uniforms and they didn'tinfer or spadge access security
and guards failed to monitor thecameras in real time and doors

(30:55):
were always propped open.
But anyways, the long story ofit is that she sued, she lost
because the court said there'sno reasonable way you can
predict that this is going tohappen.
He wrote I love about hisnewsletter.
If you subscribe to hisnewsletter he has like a
paragraph of what happened andthen the next paragraph it's set

(31:17):
aside by bars and it's the TLDR.
I love it.
A federal appellate court heldup the employer was not liable
for negligence after a formeremployee violently attacked a
current employee at the facility.
The court reasoned that even ifthere were lapses in security,
this calculated violent act wasso bizarre and so unforeseeable
that it broke the chain ofcausation Under law.

(31:40):
No reasonable jury could findthat employer could have
predicted this attack.
So the employer couldn't beliable.
But just, I could not imaginebeing an HR person.
I couldn't imagine workingthere and that situation
happening period, but being inHR and having to deal with that,
the aftermath of that, thelawsuit of that, that, the

(32:07):
aftermath of that, the lawsuitof that you got to believe that
other employees that were notinvolved quit, found other jobs,
got the hell out of there likewhatever.
Locally, not too well before Imoved to where I am now still in
the same county, we had asimilar incident, kind of.
A guy was trying to get back athis ex.
He filled his pickup truck withup with hay.
He poured gasoline all over thepickup truck himself and filled

(32:30):
the truck up with gascontainers and he drove the
truck into the building of theoffice the office building she
worked in, and she was not hurt.
Nobody.
The only person was hurt.
He died.
The driver died.
Everybody else made it out,thankfully out of that, but
burned the building down.
But just, you can't predictanything.

(32:50):
And then my HR question relatedto this is how far are you
going to go to get?
If he's a driver, he's probablygot two, three dozen T-shirts
for the company, t-shirts forthe company working places where
people have had uniforms.
I've never tried to recoverthose uniforms.

(33:11):
I don't want somebody's sweat,stain, dirty uniform you can.
You can keep it.
When I left that company is Iwore a uniform as well.
Until I moved I had all myshirts.
And then I just contacted aformer employee or a former
co-worker who's about my size,and said hey, you know, I've got
this stuff and I don't need it,don't want it.
And I offered it to him and heswung by my house and picked it

(33:33):
up and and things like that.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
but I was like yeah, it's hard like so sometimes now,
like knowing what I know, nowlike or like piecing things
together.
There would always be I don'tknow if it was a compliance
thing, but every once in a while, when I was at my old company
that was a big campus type setupwhere there were the security

(33:58):
guards at the front and thebadge ends with like four or
five entries of access, with abadge every once in a while we
would get like a random, whatseemed to be out of the blue,
remind, heavy reminder, to belike just remember, we do not
allow people in unless theybadge, even if you know them
behind you.
They must badge in like do notlet anyone, do not presume

(34:21):
people like whatever.
And now I'm thinking like these, these reminders would come out
of the blue and I'm like butwere they like?
Was it a situation where someonecould be like hey, I need to go
talk to hr, I'm going throughlike a bad situation at home, a
bad breakup or something, and Ineed to let people know because
I'm afraid for my safety at work?

(34:42):
And then it kind of escalatesto just a blanket like hey,
everybody, just a real friendlyreminder do not do X, y and Z,
do not prop doors open, do notlet people in.
And now I'm thinking I do agreethat the company should not be
liable for that, but I'mwondering, like, what additional
steps could have been taken inthat situation.

(35:02):
Like, were there conversationswith HR?
Did this person even feel likeshe was in danger, or was this
out of the blue?
And then I think on the otherend, like if it escalated this
much like things like this don'tescalate that quickly usually,
so usually there's signs ofabuse within the relationship
and if that's the case, like,just I don't know Like, are

(35:27):
there little things that wecould do, Not to say that the
workplace is responsible, butjust to say, like, what more
could have been done?

Speaker 2 (35:33):
Yeah, I mean direct people to EAP, get them
counseling, get them help,physical help, security type
help.
You know need.
Do you need to be walked toyour car at night and things
like that.
You know we, we have a badge in, badge out system, so all our
doors are always locked from theoutside and about once a year

(35:55):
or so we send a reminder don't,don't hold the door open for
other people, don't let peopleand everybody must open the door
to themselves, use the badgethemselves.
But you know what, I'm the onewho sends that email a week
later.
I know I'm holding the door forsomebody and things like that,
but in my defense, if somebody'sbeen terminated or something's

(36:16):
going on, I'm probably the firstperson outside.
I would know, but I can't sitthere as a human being,
especially if someone's carryingsomething.
I can't not open the door forsomeone else or hold it.
You're three steps behind me.
Nope, I'm not going to hold thedoor for you.
It's awkward, but once a yearor so we send out an email, not

(36:39):
to I forget what the term theyuse for people just walking in
behind someone who swiped in.
So it's rough, but man, what ahorrible, horrible situation.
It's crazy.
But I have one more story and itrelates very much to what we
were talking about with themicro retirements and this comes

(37:03):
to us.
I think it was on linkedin.
I found it.
I don't know who posted it, soI can't give them credit.
The company is uline and, forwhatever reason, I even get the
uline catalogs at my home, yeah,for every once while for
packing materials and thingslike that.
But their CEO, I'm assuming Liz, and her name is printed here

(37:27):
in cursive, so it looks likeit's Liz Wilkinson.
I might be wrong on that.
She put this in her in theircatalog and it's titled the
Nomads and it goes job hoppingused to be frowned on red flags
on resumes, something previousgenerations did their best to
avoid.

(37:47):
You stuck with a job, you showedstability and you worked your
way up.
But boy, how times have changed, and that's underlined and in
bold.
What makes it so easy for youngworkers to pull up stakes and
move on?
Why they don't prioritize jobsecurity and financial stability
more.
Maybe it's because they don'thave to.
At Uline, young people areresigning before their two-year

(38:11):
anniversary at a higher ratethan we'd like.
We invest precious resources inrecruiting, hiring and training
new hires, only for them toleave.
We call them nomads.
Why do they jump around?
And then she's got this.
Listen, this gets a littlepolitical here.
Just not trying to be verypolitical here, but free
insurance.
The Affordable Care Act allowsyoung adults to stay on their

(38:32):
parents' health insurance untilage 26.
The unintended consequences arethat you can quit a job without
losing coverage and go look forto go where the grass looks
greener.
In addition, parents often payfor their kids phone bills, car
insurance, streaming servicesnext bullet oh, I haven't
thought about that.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Like you, would rather people be like enslaved
at your company because theyhave no other choice for medical
insurance.
Like that's dumb but then alsoany other company provides
insurance like well, not every,you know what I'm saying.
Like most companies, mostcompanies like you go you get on
their insurance plan.
That's a stupid reason.

Speaker 2 (39:12):
Next, but I will say I'm I'm guilty, my, my son, I
pay his car insurance and hisphone bill.
Now he's 21, he's still incollege.
So but my daughter, I still payher phone bill.
Only because I tried I wasgoing to take her off.
But it's actually lessexpensive to have four people in

(39:32):
the family plan, to have threepeople in the family plan.
So I was like, okay, screw it,I'll, you know, I'll pay her,
I'll keep her on my, my familyplan, my family phone.
But anyways, our second bullet,the pandemic COVID-19, turned
the world on its head.
Thanks to three rounds ofstimulus checks, people didn't
get off their couches to work.

(39:53):
It became the norm to work fromhome and not build camaraderie
at work.
All hell broke loose.
Okay, that's our bullet numbertwo, or?

Speaker 3 (40:02):
did you just lose control?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (40:04):
I do see the work from home.
Okay, that's number two, or didyou just lose control?
Yeah, I do see the work fromhome both ways, and it really
depends on the leadership andthe environment of the company,
the culture of the company andthings like that.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (40:19):
Also like the stimulus checks.
People act like they were likelife changing money.
Like Ed McMahon was showing upat your door with like a $45,000
check.
Like those stimulus checksweren't like life-changing, they
were just like so to blame that.
That's why people feltcomfortable to job hop I don't
know, and they were getting onit.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
She doesn't say this, but I know people will be
saying this unlimitedunemployment for periods of the
pandemic at some places as well.
But well, then again theyweren't losing money Knock on
wood.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
I don't want to put a jinx out there, but like when
are we going to get anotherpandemic Like this?

Speaker 1 (40:55):
is once in a 100 year phenomenon.
I'm being kind of serious, likethe last flu epidemic was like
in 1920.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
So like when, when are we going to have this again?
So can we just like crumplethose excuses up and just throw
them away until we like have torehash them in the next 100
years?
Like not just sensitive but.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
I'm sort of overhearing COVID-19 being the
blame for all of these things aswell from kids not having
social skills.
Because they've been, theyspent their high school years
doing high school remotely andthey can't work functionally
with other people.
There's there's a wee bit ofmerit to it, but it's not.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
It's not the root cause it's also not the decline
of society.
So we're fine, we're fine lifewill go on.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Her third and final bullet is parenting.
I like that.
Look at her face.
Many try to be a friend.
They show a lot of affectionand concentrate on the fun, but
fail to provide guidelines,rules and expectations that
teach personal responsibility.
Bold and underlined, bold andunderlined it.
The result is a generation ofnomads who've been sheltered in

(42:05):
quotes, knowing mom and dad willkeep taking care of them.
At some point you've got tokick them out of the nest so
they can learn to fly.
And she ends it by sayingemployers always look out for
young, talented candidates.
It's hard to build a winningteam when the rookies you sign
think they're free agents beforethey even take the field.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
So newsflash, every employee is a free agent.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Yeah, Employment at will has been around, unless
you're in Montana for quite awhile.

Speaker 3 (42:34):
I'm curious to hear what Uline does for, like I
don't know performancemanagement, for learning and
development, for growth pathing,for growth pathing, for career
pathing, like, instead oflooking at this younger
generation who, I'm probablygoing to say, in my own opinion,
learned what millennials did isthat you're going to make more

(42:57):
money if you leave, right, likeif you leave and take an offer
somewhere else, incrementallyover x amount of years, you are
going to make more money than ifyou just stay at a company like
a good little boy or girl andget your little pats on the head
with your little two percentincreases every year.
I mean, unless the company isactually pouring into someone

(43:20):
and making it worthwhile forthat person to stay, then you
can 100 expect that person toleave.
Then you can 100% expect thatperson to leave within three
years.
And I think honestly, like I,this is just off the top of my
head I think that's like theaverage, like people stay like
three years.
So my feedback to you is why arepeople leaving at two years?
Because that's below average.

(43:40):
Is there something you're doingthat's wrong?
You line Because that's notright, but now I'm being snarky,
but like this, this articleseems to be very, I think you're
right.
There's a lot of like littlepolitical sprinklings in there,
but for the most part, it'sblaming people for a problem
that you've created.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Like, like, I don't know that's no, I I think I
would like to know what the theculture is, because there's some
companies out there that doreally good at bringing in young
people and developing them andletting them grow.
Back in my day and people mightlaugh at this there are two

(44:19):
companies that were really knownfor developing managers in
future careers.
First was enterprise rent-a-car.
If you got in there and youstuck with them and took their
management route, yeah youlearned a lot, you developed a
career.
I mean, is enterprise rent-a-carto the most glamorous place to

(44:40):
work or anything like that?
No, but they had a very goodroutine in the other place and
Sherwin-Williams was the otherthat developed managers and
taught people to be managers andleaders and develop them.
And yeah, you're probably notgoing at either of those places,
you're not going to keep thosepeople for and once again I'm

(45:03):
talking about people who aregraduating from college in the
mid, early mid 90s.
And that was the thing andthose people, as they went
through their career, did reallywell.
And actually here's a funnyside story I interviewed at
enterprise for a job as I reallykind of wanted to work there
because their managementstructure.
I bombed that interview likethere is no and it's not

(45:26):
anything.
I said what it was theinterviewer, she.
She was in her upper 20s andhere I am, 22 ish, I think she
unofficially dared me into astaring contest.
She had locked in eye contactand didn't blink.
I wasn't going to blink.

(45:47):
And I'm sitting there staringat her.
I'm not blinking, I'm talking,I'm going through the interview.
I was like I don't know, Icouldn't stand down, I couldn't
take a breath and relax and bemyself.
I had to sit there eyes wideopen, unblinking, staring at her
with the same intensity she wasstaring at me, and so that was

(46:09):
a very awkward interview, and Idid not get that job.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
I will say a friend of a friend of mine speaking
about like interviewing in thejob market, like.
So a friend of mine is nowinterviewing and they have a
final interview this friday witha company now the company
itself small world.
A friend of a friend used towork there and that.
But they used to work therelike 15 years ago, 10, 15 years

(46:36):
ago and when they, when theysaid they were like leaving,
they could not leave fast enoughbecause just the corporation
was very, the company was very,very militant, a lot of
ex-military work there and theyled with aggression and that was
the culture of just direct andlike a lot of people, and not
that I'm not saying like allplaces with military no, I'm not

(46:58):
saying that but that was justlike this place was rent, very
militant and very like peoplewould yell at each other and
like that's how I'm sittingthere.
I'm like God, you got to come upwith some real good interview
questions to get down to that,to see if that's changed,
because that sounds horrific.
So hopefully that is that'schanged.

(47:20):
But what I was also going tosay is like this job market's a
little too crazy right now.
And the same friend got aapplied for a role that was like
a director level humanresources person and the company
got back to them and I likelooked at the company name.
I'm like that sounds I'm notgoing to say the company name on

(47:40):
here I'm like that soundsscammy.
Say the company name on herelike that sounds scammy.
and if there's one thing youneed to know about me is in my
spare time I go down these weirdyoutube rabbit holes about
scams and also mlms and pyramidschemes so they were like I like
looked up the company and itsays along the lines of a

(48:01):
business that focuses onpersonal development and online
business opportunities, with astrong emphasis on travel and
time freedom, and I'm like, ohshit.
I'm like that sounds like MLM.
And then, sure enough, lookingdown, it's like this is a
pyramid scheme.
This is a pyramid scheme.
This is so.
I just want to ask this jobmarket sucks so much.

(48:25):
Keep the pyramid schemes out ofit.
People just want to find a damnjob and go to work and work
their time and, as we're talkingabout this woman from Uline,
like it's not that deep.
People just want to go to a joband make what they feel like is
fair, and if you don't providethem for what they feel like is

(48:49):
fair whether they're correct ornot this is all about perception
of fairness they are going toleave.
So you need to handle thatperception, handle those
expectations and give peoplesomething in return so they
effing stay, it's not.
I hate this generationalnonsense of like kids.

(49:10):
These days they don't know whatthey're doing.
I'm like shut up, like gen z'sjust building on what the
millennials already learned likewe already learned the scam we
already learned the scam.
It's a a scam.
It's a scam Like unless you'rebringing back pensions, unless
you're bringing back really bigcareer paths, unless you're
doing stuff like that, we aregoing to try to find the biggest

(49:35):
pay, but not only that.
We're trying to find the bestexperience because we want to.
And I know this about Gen X,too, or Gen Z, sorry.
They want to learn, they wantto grow, they want to grow, they
want opportunity.
And that's the same withmillennials where, when they
entered the workforce andspoiler alert, it's the way Gen
X was, it's the way everyone iswhen they entered the workforce
at a certain age.

(49:55):
But it's just one of thosethings where, if you're not
giving them a reason to stay,people are going to leave.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
People are going to leave them a reason to stay.
People are gonna leave.
People are gonna leave.
Cry about it, susan, cry aboutit Liz, liz, yeah, whatever
she's, susan, susan, karen,karen, let's cry about it, karen
.
No, I, I think, I, I think youhit on the head.
She's envisioning a company of30, 40 years ago where you came
in day one and you worked your30 years.
I mean I've averaged well, morethan double in most of my jobs,
except for one.
Well, most of my jobs I'vestayed in.

(50:32):
I've been at over three yearsand things like that.
I get to places I like and Istay.
And yeah, if I were to hop,sure I could make a little bit
more money here or there, butthere's so much for me benefits
in staying where I am.
And there's, you know, someonewho, a hated HR but B understood

(50:53):
HR.
They had this interestingdichotomy.
They were a manager I had towork very closely with.
We got along.
He respected me, but he did notlike the function of HR and he
made no bones about it.
But when we're talking aboutretention, he goes, he goes.
There's two things he goes.
There's a stick and a carrot.
He goes.
If you have only a stick,you're going to drive people

(51:16):
away, but only but.
If you have only a carrot,that's not necessarily going to
lure people away.
There's got to be both a stickand a carrot from another
company.
If you're you know if thingsare looking so good, you know if
you're there's nothing drivingthem out, you know they're going
to be less likely to go even ifit's other opportunity looks
good.
And he I've always I haven'tbought into him a hundred

(51:40):
percent in his thing, but I dobelieve there it's a two,
there's two aspects of it.
There's what's driving you outand what's pulling you elsewhere
, and you have to have both to acertain extent.
Now, if it's an abusive, awfulenvironment, yeah, get the hell
out.
I've mentioned I only worked atthe water park one year.
It wasn't a horribleenvironment, it wasn't awful, it

(52:01):
wasn't the right environmentfor me is what it was and yeah,
so maybe that's their situation,but Otherwise there was
something driving me out thereand it was called 400 Teenagers.
I could not deal with 400teenagers any longer.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
If I had hair.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
I would have been pulling it out but that was
pushing me out.
And then I found a job, butsort of along those lines, when
I was looking for a job to leavethe water park.
My very first interview waswith a company.
I applied online.
I remember their ad.
They were an IT services firmda da, da, da da.
And the ad on wherever it wasLinkedIn Indeed wherever made it

(52:44):
look really cool.
I sent in my resume, got aninterview, I go in and I go
through the interview and thenit's time for me to ask
questions.
I'm like well, tell me aboutyou know about IT services and
how many IT developers andthings you have.
They had the whole floor ofthis building and I was like she
goes, well, we have two.
And I'm like, oh well, what isthe rest of the company?

(53:04):
And it was a call center and itwas a call center designed to
sell their software.
That these two developers wereit.
Just if you're marketing yourposition as a director of HR for
an IT services firm, but youhave two people that do IT work
and you know 200 call centerpeople, yeah, that's, that's not

(53:28):
a, that's not IT services.
I just did not take well to thatat all and they called me for a
second interview.
I was like I'm sorry, I'm justnot take well to that at all.
And they called me for a secondinterview.
I was like I'm sorry, I'm justnot interested in this position.
And they called me like backtwice after I told them I'm
really not interested in thisposition.
I was like tell me your callcenter, yeah, and things as I.

(53:49):
You know, some people gosh.
There's a guy who has I haven'tlistened to this podcast in a
long time.
He's down in Orlando, floridaarea and he loves working at
call center.
He's an HR person there and Ijust can't see myself at just

(54:09):
the what I picture and envision.
No firsthand experience of theturnover and the issues you have
to deal with.
I just yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
That wouldn't be for the right environment for me, so
, so yeah, I think there's likea lot, because Uline kind of
reminds me of like I know theythey probably do like a lot of
packaging and delivering ofproducts.
So I'm thinking it's like awarehouse environment with a lot
of like stock man, like actualinventory management and the

(54:33):
shipping of things and stufflike that, which sounds like a
lot of a lot.
Like a company I used to workfor that was very it was
manufacturing, but kind of thesame thing just like a lot of
people working on the lines,doing the things, packing the
things, shipping the things.
And, to be honest with you,that isn't unless you're someone

(54:53):
who is wanting to go down towork up to a supervisor, to work
up to a manager, to work up,like from a floor worker up, up,
up Like there's going to be alot of turnover because
individuals who are working onlike a manufacturing floor or a
floor environment, unless they,unless they have a desire to

(55:14):
move into management, they've,they've reached, they've reached
it.
You know that's what they wantto do, that's what they're going
to do and there's nothing wrongwith that.
But at the same time, likeagain, you got to find ways to
keep them here because thatcarrot of bigger pay is out
there, yeah, and also, just getrid of bullshit, like being in,
like, of course, this is whereit's applicable, because not all

(55:35):
jobs can be done remotely, butwhere is it like?
Stop getting rid of?
Get rid of bullshit rules andpolicies.
I worked at a home builder andwe had to be every single person
.
All employees had to be intheir seats at 8 am and no one
could leave before 5 pm.
And if you did, they wouldnotice and it was just like.

(55:59):
This was a few years ago.
This was like 2020.
And I'm like, and even when thepandemic hit, we were a what is
that?
Critical roles because we werebuilding homes.
So so, yeah, like, even withthat, you had to be in the
office.
You can wear masks.
If you have your own personaloffice, there's no reason why
you have to work from home.
You close your office door.

(56:19):
I'm like why?
These are stupid rules and Iquit because of the stupid rules
.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah, I think my overt, my personal aversion to
the working from home is I justnever got in the flow.
I never regularly worked fromhome, even during the pandemic,
and I didn't start working fromhome until about a year and a
half ago.
Our policy even beforepre-pandemic was certain roles

(56:48):
could work from home two days aweek, and then we were very
flexible during the pandemictime, but I still came into the
office during the whole pandemicfive days a week in the office,
40 hours, because that's what Iliked.
And then my first long periodof working from home was when,
first, my wife and children gotCOVID and so I stayed home as I

(57:12):
didn't want to bring it to theoffice with me, right?
So I stayed at home and then,as they're recovering, I finally
caught.
I thought I was going to getthrough the whole thing, but as
they're recovering, I finallygot it, and that was like years,
it wasn't 2020.
It was like 2021 or later whenI finally got it and I just

(57:34):
never got in the groove ofworking from home.
And then when I moved, I movedhalf an hour away, further away
from my work than I was living,and that's when I decided, okay,
I was going to do one day aweek from home and you have to
get in a sink in the flow of itand doing one day a week, you

(57:55):
never get in that sink in thatflow and I I never called in.
So I, just a few months ago ormaybe the end of last year, I
don't remember exactly I saidyou know what?
I'm just going to go to theoffice every single day.
I I prefer the office, liketoday.
I had a.
I liked being in the office.
I got to be involved in somethings that I'm not normally
involved with and I was like ifI was sitting at home, I say

(58:35):
what can I help, what can I do?
And yeah, I like doing thingslike that, I like being around
people.
But my wife, on the other hand,when the covid happened and they
sent them home, she hasexcelled working from home, yeah
, and she goes into the officeonce every other week.
She and another employeerotates to go in as they do

(58:57):
payroll.
So they got to go in once aweek before payrolls to get the
liens and garnishments and allthose other fun things they need
to get out of the office.
And she goes in once a week anddoes that.
But she likes going to theoffice when it is time to go.
Once a week she goes.
You know, twice a month isperfectly fine by me to go in

(59:19):
the office.
She still has a physical officethere and they're actually
redecorating the office rightnow as we speak and she's like,
oh, that's nice, she's gotnothing personal.
No family pictures thereanymore.
No, nothing in the officeanymore.
You know, the office is justsort of where she hangs out
while she's at work and goes towork.

(59:39):
But most of the time she saysshe's out there chit-chatting
with other people.
You know, like, apparently hris, she's right around the
corner from hr and they are inthe office five days a week and
accounting is in the office fivedays a week, so she's around
the corner from them and hangsout and chit chats with them and
things like that.
So, yeah, I work from home isnot if the company manages it

(01:00:04):
well and takes it with the rightattitude and presents it in the
right framework of of how itshould be done.
Because, yes, you're definitelygoing to have people who are
slackers and are working fromhome.
I can think of someone who wouldpost on Facebook regularly
about being at the pool whilethey were working at home and

(01:00:26):
things like that, or being atthe beach and and things like
that, while they were supposedto be working from home, and I
don't know who would do that.
But those are the.
Those are the.
Those are the people that thislady from you line.
She sees those posts and knowshere's those same people.
Yes, yeah, I'm working fromhome at the beach, and that
means they're not answering youremails.
You're not being diligent, youknow there's truth to that.

(01:00:48):
There really is and there'speople who do that, but that's
when you, as a manager, handlethat.
Say, hey, warren, yeah, yeah,everybody seems to be talking
about your facebook post whileyou're you're at the beach when
you were supposed to be workingtoday one.

Speaker 3 (01:01:01):
Let's have a little conversation about that I will
say like I'm speaking from thisfrom a very from from the lens
of someone who works in acorporate environment where
there is flexibility, and I workfor an organization where all
the work can be done remotely.
So again, this is a veryspecific perspective, but it's

(01:01:23):
funny enough.
As we were like kind ofprepping for this episode
tonight, I did a quick, I wentwith my little AI assistant and
one of the things that came upthis week from the guardian was
like it was with workplaceflexibility and hybrid working
and asynchronous working, likethere is a shift from thinking

(01:01:47):
about hours worked versus theenergy, that energy flow.
So it's not like workflowduring time, but it's like work
produced during energy flows,which sounds really weird but it
makes sense in my head.
But it's very like if, ifyou're a morning person, then
you get all your work done inthe morning boom, boom, boom,

(01:02:09):
boom, boom.
And let's say like that's your,that's the way your brain is
wired, that's the way yourinternal clock is.
And let's say you go into theoffice and you get all your work
like a massive amount of bulkof your work done before lunch
and you're working from home.
Let's say yeah, like go do yourlaundry, go clean the bathroom
during a break, I don't care,cause you're still being

(01:02:30):
productive at work.
If you're one of those peoplewho's more you know gets all of
their work done, plus some maybein the afternoon, because
that's when your energy clock,your internal clock, is lean
into that like you don't need tobe sitting at your desk doing
like forcing yourself theemotional labor to do something,

(01:02:51):
when instead you, if younaturally lean into like those
times of productivity, it's justgoing to be more.
You're going to get more done.
That's the argument.
The argument is you're going toget more work done.
It's going to be more efficientbecause you're just kind of
leaning into those flows insteadof just sitting nine to five at
a desk.
And I get that because that'show I work, I'm, I am a, I am.
I am the brightest from 10 am to3 pm.

(01:03:13):
Anytime outside of that, I amthe brightest from 10 am to 3 pm
.
Anytime I'm outside of that.
I am like starting to hit awall.
I'm not going to do verycreative things.
I may be making a little moremistakes if I'm like fatigued.
So I will take a break and Icleaned my old bathroom
yesterday for an hour and Idon't care, like that's just

(01:03:37):
what I did.
And guess what?
Work life that is life balance.
I'm able to do my work reallywell.
I spit out a crap ton of jobaids that I made and I cleaned
my bathroom.
So what more do you want fromme?
You wine lady?

Speaker 2 (01:03:51):
That's a perfect example you can.
If you have the rightdiscipline, you can do that.
That's a perfect example youcan.
If you have the rightdiscipline, you can do that.
And I absolutely agree with thetheory of in situations where
it's possible.
If I am not a morning person, Iam dragging ass.
I can't even remember leavingthe house most mornings.
I feel like I wake up at workall of a sudden With my hour and

(01:04:12):
a half commute.
I don't know where I wasdriving or anything like that,
but I wake up at work and thenaround 10 o'clock I'm starting
to hit my stride and two orthree I'm like, okay, the stride
is slowing down a little bit.
But for my assistant, she is amorning person and she likes
being here in the morning andshe asked to modify her hours to

(01:04:35):
be earlier.
I'm like, sure, I don't care.
She is so funny at times Idon't know if she actively
listens to it, probably, orpodcasts it up, but she's so
funny.
She was asked about leavingearly.
I'm like, as long as things aredone, I don't.
I'm trying to break myself ofthe habit of saying I don't care
.
But I said as long as thingsare done, I don't care.

(01:05:02):
I'd rather you leave than sitthere and pretend to be busy for
half an hour and and thingslike that, or coming up.
I mean, if, if you leave earlyand I'm like, oh my god, where
where is this, why isn't thisdone, then we got an issue.
But if everything's done andthere's no reason for you to
just twitter your thumbs or makebusy work or anything like that
, and you, you can.
I'm I'm trying to be as openwith her as I can, but she's
really she's like I don't knowwhat the right word is she's

(01:05:24):
very diligent.
I guess it's not as importantto me.
I will.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
I will also say, like my little tangent there it goes
into the workspace too.
I mean, I'm, I'm right in themiddle, I'm 50, 50.
I love working from home, but Ialso love seeing people in
person, building thoserelationships and like
brainstorming in groups.
Like I love that in-personpiece too.
I'm just asking that, ascompanies are bringing people,

(01:05:52):
are calling people back into theoffice, which is natural,
because my theory is like thependulum has swung.
Right, everyone wanted remotework.
We've been in remote work forabout five years now.
The pendulum is slowly going toswing and that's driven by the
employee, not the employer.
The employee will want to comeback to the office.

(01:06:13):
The employee will want a hybridwork environment.
That's what they're going to beseeing, because they're going
to start to feel isolation.
My only ask is that, as we'recalling people back for a hybrid
environment, let's do itintentionally and let's not put
these stupid things in.
It's like, well, if you're goingto be in the office, we have to
be butts in seats eight to fiveand like, right, you have to

(01:06:34):
still allow people theflexibility they've had for the
past five years.
Like if I need to leave becausegreat example, friday afternoon
, bean has physical therapy forher little feet and it's like I
need.
I don't want people giving meside eye.
I don't want people judging melike we've left all of that back

(01:06:56):
in the 2010s.
Like those are done.
Let people come to work withpurpose and, if they need to
leave to go take care of stufflike, as long as their
productivity is great andthey're excellent employees and
they're doing what is asked,surprisingly, I'm going to
guarantee, with that flexibility, they will do even more.

(01:07:17):
But don't, when you're puttingthese policies back for hybrid
work, don't make stupid rulesthat don't make sense, because
then you're going to be likethis Uline woman who's like
where are all the people going?
I can tell you where the peopleare going.
They're going to companies withmore flexible cultures and

(01:07:37):
environments.

Speaker 2 (01:07:39):
You know, in terms of that this goes back to the 90s
I mentioned.
I was living in Maryland, I wasworking in the DC area in
general, the company I workedfor we had core hours and that
was the first time I'd everheard of core hours.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Yes, I love core hours.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
You know our company core hours are, let's say
they're 10 to 3.
You can come in at 10, and thatjust means you're leaving at 7
or whatever.
I can't do the math there.
Or you can come in at 7 andleave at 3.
But the core hours, you know,they wanted everybody there 10
to 3.
Yeah, and there were so manycompanies that did that.
Because, let me tell you in thiswas the 90s, dc traffic was
horrible in the 90s.

(01:08:20):
I can't fathom what it would betoday.
I would, I don't know, I wouldgo crazy up there now.
But my company, the expresspurpose, was to let employees
avoid the worst of the traffic.
If you were a morning person,you could avoid it coming in the
morning.
If you were an afternoon person, you could avoid it coming

(01:08:40):
after the main rush hour and itworked real well.
They very rarely ever hadanything going on that was
outside the core hours.
And if they did, it was one ofthe things.
We've been flexible with you.
You're going to have to beflexible with us.
We can.
You know we can't get aroundthis eight 30 meeting this week.
Or you know our client iscoming at eight 30.
That's when they can be here.
So, yes, you're going to behere and that happened.

(01:09:03):
I can count on my fingers howmany times things like that
would happen, but it's likeeverybody Okay, it would be okay
.
Next Thursday it's going to beeverybody's here for whatever.
And it wasn't a thing, itreally wasn't, and I think

(01:09:23):
everybody appreciated it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:27):
I know we do this, I know we're going along too, but
I know we do this in HR as a CYA, Like we sometimes create
policies for the lowestdenominator of the group.
Yes, Just like.
I think we kind of need to stopdoing that.
Like we need to stop makingblanket policies because we

(01:09:49):
assume people will takeadvantage of something.
We need to stop making policiesbecause we assume the worst in
people, because I'm this is mebeing very, not jaded.
This is a personal opinion.
I think about 90% of the peopleare.
I think 90% of people 95, 95%of people just want to come to

(01:10:10):
work and do a good job, go homeand live their life and if you
have that, like one person who'staking advantage of permissive
time, who's taking who's notdressing appropriately at work,
or who may be like takingadvantage of core hours here and
there, like, have aconversation with that person

(01:10:31):
and manage that individual, wedon't need to make these I'm
going to say oppressive policies.
We're gone, it's again.
We're past that.
Just learn to manage.
Train your leaders to manage,that's all.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Well, last thing, I worked for a company and, being
in HR, I'm starting my first day, bright-eyed, bushy tail.
And I said and being in HR, I'mstarting my first day,
bright-eyed, bushy-tail and Isaid to the director of HR I
said I didn't get a copy of thehandbook.
I want to get a copy of thehandbook, I want to dive into it
and really become familiar withit.
And she said and this was afairly a good mid-sized company,

(01:11:11):
not large, but we don't have ahandbook.
I was like what she says't havea handbook.
I was like what she says, wehave a few individual policies.
And she said, which pointed meto the intranet site, the
internal website, where theywere.
And she goes, but she goes.
I really like to minimizepolicies to maximize flexibility
and even though she was not oneof my favorite managers, was

(01:11:32):
not one of my favorite managersleaders that I had.
That philosophy has stuck withme ever since.
Now I completely disagree withnot having a handbook, but I do
agree with the philosophy ofminimizing policies to maximize
flexibility Because, yeah, let'sdeal with things on a
one-on-one situation and, youknow, if it's something's

(01:11:55):
something big, yeah, we'llprobably need to make a policy
or something out of it but.
If it's not.
It's not huge, you know.
If it's only one person every10 years that's having this
problem, you don't need a policyfor it.
Yeah, so all right.
Well, this has been really long.
I'm gonna have some fun editingthis.
We went everywhere with it, butlet's see here, get our thank

(01:12:16):
yous out of the way.
So our Patreon supportersHallie, the original Jaded HR,
rockstar Bill and Mike, thankyou very much for supporting us
on Patreon.
You can too.
I did look for reviews.
Very briefly, I only checkedApple.
I did not see any new reviews,so please review us.
That's how people are going tobe able to find us.
Spread the word.
You know we're having nearrecord months of downloads.

(01:12:39):
Lately.
We we've been like dozens.
For may, we were literally lessthan 100 downloads away from a
record, and we didn't publish anepisode at the end of may like
we were supposed to, so we wouldhave hit a record then.
June was a good month fordownloads.
So not close well, not close torecord, but it's.
June was a good month fordownloads.
So not close, well, not closeto record, but it's still a very
good month for downloads, andso hopefully we'll do.

(01:13:01):
Oh, actually, july probably isnot going to be a good month
because we're not recording.
Our next episode is not goingto be until August the 7th.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Because Warren is going on a mini retirement.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
I am going on a mini retirement outside of the
country and I am going to be atall-inclusive resorts, so all
the alcohol I can drink, I amintending on being buzzed for
multiple weeks at a time and notgetting beyond buzzed, but
having some good times.

Speaker 3 (01:13:37):
And you have to tell me if this happens to you.
Every time Kevin and I go on acruise or a resort where there's
just like people you meet right, we always seem to find the
other HR people every singleeffing time and it's like
clockwork and they are usuallythe most unhinged people on
vacation.

(01:13:57):
Like we were just floating inthe pool on our last cruise and
this woman floats up to us andshe's a little drunk but very
talkative and very extrovertedand after a couple minutes of
talking she's like a VP of HR atsome company and we're like
we're in HR too.
That woman was like, oh, we'rebest friends now.
And I'm like, oh, and she wasgetting shots.

(01:14:20):
She was like I know what you gothrough.
We're here to party and it wasvery fun.
This has happened three times.
The HR people on vacation protip for anyone who is not in HR
Go find them out, because we'rethe ones that are letting off
the most steam and we are mostlikely the most unhinged people

(01:14:40):
at the pool bar.

Speaker 2 (01:14:42):
Yeah, I'm super excited.
This is my first vacation since1999 without any kids involved.
So, yes, very excited aboutthat.
But going to your point aboutunhinged HR, you know Feathers
and I were fraternity brothers.
We tailgate all football seasonlong together and we're
together and people always likeyou two are in HR.

(01:15:03):
We're like we're a little wildand crazy and we get out there
sometimes and you two are in HRLike yep.

Speaker 3 (01:15:11):
This is why we are like that.

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
So, yeah, we know how to party, we know how to throw
down, so yeah, but yeah, nextepisode will be August 7th.
So enjoy your break from us.
Please come back in August andwe'll have some.
We we're planning what I thinkis going to be like a truly epic
episode.

(01:15:34):
That's just too good.
I meant to.
I meant to do it this week.
I just ran out of time, but Ithink I'll be able to come up
with some time to do all the thepre, the work that's going to
need to go into this ahead oftime.
So yeah, it'll be.
I think maybe we'll try thatone in August and then maybe
we'll do we'll also have aOffice episode for the Alliance

(01:15:55):
coming up soon too.
So yay, wow, really longepisode.
We'll edit it down.
Try and keep it around an hour,even though it's almost an hour
and a half.
What's wrong with us, I don'tknow.
Good episode, though.
Thank you very much toeverybody.
But, as all, oh, I gave ourPatreon supporters, but the

(01:16:15):
intro is Andrew Culpa and themusic is the underscore
orchestra.
Devil with the devil.
So that's what I'm going to say.
As always, I'm Warren.

Speaker 3 (01:16:25):
I'm Cece.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
And we're here helping you survive.
Hr one.
What the fuck moment at a time.
Yay.