THE BOB LUTZ INTERVIEW

Jeff Sterns met with Car-Czar Bob Lutz in May of '24. Not only was it insightful related to the vehicle industry and design but leadership and some surprising personal things were revealed. 

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:00):
Hello car folks, Jeff Sterns, here, I had an

(00:03):
opportunity to interview BobLutz recently. He definitely
needs no introduction as a carguys car guy. However, the
interview does give someinsights into the vehicle
business, as well as into Bob'spersonal life. Enjoy.
Jeff Sterns connected throughcars, if they're big wigs, we'll

(00:27):
have him on the show. And yes,we'll talk about cars and
everything else. Here he is now,Jeff Sterns,
Bob a, first of all, let me justget my jitters out of the way.
Oh, come on. We're not thatscary. Listen, I put on LinkedIn

(00:48):
that I'm going to have anopportunity to meet Bob Lutz. If
you have any questions thatyou'd like me to ask, please
post them. And a number ofpeople came to me and said like,
Is this a joke? Do you mean it?He's my biggest hero. I was
watching a video last nightabout Mick Jagger doing what

(01:09):
he's doing in a concert just inthe last few days and people
talking about him. And that'show I think about you. But I'm
going to ask you if you rememberme.
Um,
to be honest, no, you are anhonorary Judge 99 2000 2001 at
Pebble Beach. Concoursd'Elegance. Yeah, that's

(01:30):
correct. I was a Bentley dealer.I was there with Bentley,
hospitality.
And I said to my dad, and weweren't carrying around, you
know, our phones, our camerasand our phones. I said, Dad,
would you please take a picturewas 20th person in line with 20
More behind me to try to getsome of those from you? I don't
remember that. I was gonna say,Don't you remember that moment?

(01:52):
Wonderful to meet you. Ofcourse, we are introduced
through our mutual friend,
Warren Brown. I have somethingspecial I want to share with
you. And I have a mystery guestthat I want to bring on. And
hopefully he'll come on here ifthe timings right. Oh, I don't
know if you recognize this guy.Well, why? Hell yeah. I had the

(02:17):
same gray hair in Russia. So Iought to be recognizable. Yeah,
well, we both have executivehair.
All right. My portion of this isan introduction.
When when I knew that Jeff wasgoing to interview you and you
graciously accepted, I reachedout to our mutual friend,

(02:40):
Vladimir Shcherbakov. Whatformer former Premier of the
USSR, though, and he'll be happyto tell you about that.
And I asked him if he would givesome kind words to you. And he
was he was over the moon indoing that. I think because of

(03:04):
the relationship you establishedwith him in Moscow and
Kaliningrad both as car guys andas leaders, and I think that
there was a connection there. Hewas so honored to do it.
That he did it in Russian askind of like a formal, a formal
approach, right? He he wanted tosay the right thing. So he had

(03:26):
his interpreter, which you willhear
voiceover interpreting that forhim. You can see how he goes on
about Bob Lutz and, and I thinkthat you'll get a big kick out
of it. Especially if you'resmoking a cigar and remembering
all the vodka and cigars that wedid when we were

(03:49):
okay, so before we get to it, Ihave a Bob Lutz war story that I
have to tell. Okay.
He he was invited to a cocktailparty when we were in
Kaliningrad for the launch ofthe Hummer.
And there was about 50 gueststhere some GM folk that had come
over with Bob and and the offthe tour folks and he probably

(04:10):
had a whole bunch of governmentdignitaries come because Bob was
there. And you know, abouthalfway through halfway through
the cocktail party, I can seethat Bob's not you know, he's he
was gracious he he did his time.So I said, Okay, I need to I
need to give this an energyboost. So I walked over to him
and said, Hey, Bob, how wouldyou like to see the guy that

(04:32):
engineered and helped design theMiG? And his eyes got as big as
saucers. Alexander Sorokin, ifyou remember his name was the
guy that did that and you spentyou spent the rest of the
evening with him. So I thinkthat it ended up being a good
cocktail party for you. Okay,now, we're some of the field

(04:57):
force guys in
In his
unit,
the salespeople in the dealerbut they were all former MIG 29
platelets from the from theSoviet Air Force. So I had great
conversations
with fellow military pilots. Icould see that by the end of the

(05:21):
evening before we got to thevodka and cigars, Sherman coughs
house that you were having agreat time. And Warren I heard
everyone was right on time thenext day after that party in the
lobby. Well, I can tell you thisanother another quick Lutz thing
as you're loading it. We drankvodka and smoke cigars till very

(05:44):
late in the morning. But beingthe host I had to be up first.
So I got up and Bob's already updressed button down collar tie.
And he says to me, this is 630in the morning after drinking
vodka and smoking cigars allnight. He says to me first

(06:05):
Causton and the other guys Isays Potter's still sleeping He
says we'll get them we got toget this show on the road
this beautiful with that roll itsays hello everybody
my name is bloody Marcia Paco

(06:25):
I'm 75 years old
38 years I've been in the automanufacturing industry of the
Soviet Union and Russia cariboubureaus and district Limbrick so
that so that when you stop Iused to be first deputy prime
Minister of the USSR

(06:48):
So sir,
also adjustment business andafter the collapse of the USSR I
went to private business evenlower to deal with when you
hear your voice when you wishesto deal with with leachables law
calm is Werbung lotsa withindustry Exactly. At that

(07:09):
period, I was fortunate enoughto get personally acquainted
with Bob Lutz, the true legendof the global auto industry by
Shropshire drew core and grown.
Our common friend, Warren Brownasked me to say a few words of
introduction, Orchard Earth wasand I'm very glad to have this

(07:33):
opportunity.
Just because I would like to saythat Bob Lutz is a legendary
engineer.
Legendary manager,
organised legendary organizer ofproduction and business.

(07:53):
Coaching Hiroshi group decideshe's a very good friend in
Australia, music and real man onEugene's americanas. He's the
only American Khufu. Am I G 29.fighter jet legally. The code
master Yes, she was teacherscare America. He's a real

(08:17):
classic American. Smart,professional. Organized,
courageous soccer open justleaves Loba honest in words and
actions. I believe this piecewill return to normal human
relations or certainly uselessAmericans significance

(08:38):
especially if
more people like Bob Lutz on theAmerican side is the royal good
house and long life to you Bob.
Do
you have an open invitation tovisit after Todd
was was list and not rookie youwill have an opportunity to fly

(09:03):
other types of yet Russianmodern fighters fighting jets. I
promise you
like a solo long. Bob, I talkedto him afterwards. He was he was
tickled pink to do this. Um, Ithink that

(09:24):
he he does six minutes worth soI'll send Amy total six minutes.
I don't have his email addressbut I'm sure you do. So please
be sure to thank him and tellhim I appreciate it very much.
And
you know, I keep very pleasantmemories of knowing him and wish

(09:46):
him a long and happy life. Iwill I will guarantee I will I
will pass that along both inemail and by calling him So with
that introduction which is alittle long
winded. I wish you both a greatinterview. Bob. It was nice to
see you with that cigar. I'mjealous. I didn't have mine.

(10:09):
Okay, great interview. Thanks.Thanks for letting me join.
Thanks very much. Good to seeyou looking well, too. How did
that make you feel? I waswatching your fat. How did it
make you feel for Warren to dothat behind your back? And glad
to say what he said? Well,obviously, I'm greatly honored.
And it's, it's nice that

(10:31):
you complete a 42 year career inthe automobile business and in
the military. And basically,you'll look back. And regardless
of what company I worked for,
I left with I can say noenemies, I left with basically
nothing but friends. So

(10:54):
I feel extraordinarily blessedthat I met so many nice,
interesting, valuable people inmy career. And of course, Vlad
and Warren are two that standout particularly well, I tell
ya, I just when I was gettingemotional over it, because it

(11:16):
was so heartfelt, and what acompliment. And you know, I know
we want to remain humble, and wewant to talk about honor. But
man Oh, man, I mean, just the,to me, I was just feeling
emotion.
We, you know, we leave ourcareers, or as we're 10 years
out of whatever our last career,one of my old bosses, who was a

(11:36):
lieutenant colonel, who wasgeneral manager in our
dealership, said, you know, inthe car business, you It's like
pulling your finger out of aglass of water, the whole you
leave, you know, waters, what doyou usually end up leaving?
When, when you're gone? As faras people remembering you are
mattering? And you really honestto god, I mean, you really do
matter when I put that commentup on LinkedIn that I was gonna

(11:57):
meet with you. So many peoplecommented, and I've got it
aggregated on certain things toask you, but I got so many
private messages and phonecalls, that you may not even,
you may not even realize it. Andyou're originally Swiss born,
went through Marines. And thenwhat GM Europe and BMW, right,

(12:19):
right. That's the sequence.Well, I went out with my 21 year
old son who's working with me inmy business today, to pick
something up for the office. AndI told him, I was gonna meet
with you, and he couldn'tbelieve it, then he's a total
car guy. And he said, How does aguy go from military to getting

(12:40):
into, you know, he was sointrigued how you escalated. And
I know that we only have so muchtime. But for a young guy like
him, do you? I mean, what canyou attribute it to? Was it?
Well, I attribute it to a coupleof things. First of all, I was
privileged to be born with goodgenes, you know, with an

(13:04):
intelligent, healthy father. Andan intelligent dynamic mother
was also very attractive, andthey were both slim, and they
both live to a ripe old age. SoI'm blessed with good genes. So
as they say, you should pickyour parents with care. Because
it's the number one factor inyour makeup, then

(13:27):
I was a sufferer of what todaywould be called ADD. In that in
school, I only paid attention tosubjects that I liked, and
completely zoned out in subjectsthat I was less good at, like
math, and history, which didn'tinterest didn't interest me at

(13:49):
all. So
there was a really a question inmy father's mind, whether I'd
ever be successful in life, and
partly, his suggestion, but alsomy orientation. I joined the
Marine Corps, and what I wouldcredit, and I do in my books,

(14:14):
whatever success I've had inprivate life, I do credit the
Marine Corps, because I thinkthe Marine Corps teaches you
discipline, commitment, caringfor your troops, focus on the
mission. And it is, and it's, Ithink, the world's best
leadership school. Now, I wasalways a car guy, I didn't leave

(14:38):
the Marine Corps and decided,What business am I gonna get
into? I always knew even when Iwas a kid, and I was given these
aptitude tests. They say, Well,what do you want to be when you
grow up and say, well, threethings I'd like to be when I
grow up. One would be a militaryfighter pilot. The second would

(14:59):
be a
He's driver. And the thirdwould, is that I'd like to be an
automobile executive. And thenthey say, well, those sound like
great goals. But, you know,you're gonna have to pick up
your grades if you want toattain any of that.
And in fact,
I attained all three, I think Iwas a decent Marine, a jet

(15:25):
attack fighter fighter andattack aviator, although never
tested in combat. But I thinkwith my training, I would have
been okay, I was a moderatelysuccessful race driver, and
quite fast for somebody thatdoesn't do it all the time. I
just did occasionally when I hadaccess to a car, or something

(15:49):
like that. And then the thirdone, which where I really
progressed beyond my ownexpectations was being an
executive in the car business.And I thrived on that. And I
found that a militarydiscipline, the focus on
leadership, taking care of thetroops, delegating authority and

(16:14):
responsibility. But driving theteam forward, in other words,
deciding on the what, anddelegating much of the how, and
then following up, make surethat people don't slack off.
Worked in the Marine Corps, andit worked in private life. Well,

(16:34):
when when my son and I werewalking around, he was just so
curious, like me, and to go thatfar. And then of course, you're
really a product guy. And itisn't like you went to art
college, right? Do you rememberJohn Dinkle. So John Dinkle was
a editor of road and track andCar and Driver. When I put on

(16:55):
the LinkedIn that I was going tomeet you, he said, Well, ask Bob
Lutz if he's still a serialkiller. And he's always Mr. Pun,
when he posted this, and heactually hung on to it. And I'm
sure you remember this.
Yeah, we that was a pressgiveaway for the Dodge Durango

(17:17):
introduction. And boy, did wedid we ever hear from did we
ever hear from the producer?
Oh, yeah, they were sort oftrademark infringement and
everything. We said, Come on,relax. We did a couple of 100
boxes. We gave them away. It'snothing serious. But the

(17:37):
Chrysler legal department
was summoned, and had to go intohand to hand combat with the
General Mills, people who feltwith something sacred had been
violated. You've diminished thebrand.
Now, another friend of mine, whowas a Ford exec, who's now with

(18:00):
an automotive space analyticscompany said that he read an
automotive news. He said, Oh myGod, if you get asked Bob about
this, he says that a viper andhe's going by memory, he could
not find it at a viperintroduction. You'd mentioned
about the press the winner getsa ride with in a viper. And the
loser gets a ride with you in ahelicopter. And apparently you

(18:23):
had just wrecked one.
Do you remember that? Yeah. So Iwant to talk about your
impressions because your courseyour the product is our
impressions about some things Iwant to look into the future.
You're definitely a recognized Igot notes are a recognized
expert in all areas of productdevelopment. But according to

(18:46):
Warren, and he said he learnedmore about interior spending an
interior at an auto show withyou for half hour, 45 minutes
than he knew in his career todaywith you talking about it. But
what do you think, right now,about like, are the two best
gotta have vehicles? What arewhat you know, what cars or
trucks excite you today, if any?Well, if any, is a good, a good

(19:12):
attendance to your questionbecause especially in a compact
sport utilities, we're seeing agreat deal of sameness among
brands. And if you're not closeenough to read the batch, it's
tough to tell one from theother. It's also become
manifestly impossible to buy abad car. I mean, everybody has

(19:37):
high levels of safety, greatnoise, vibration, and harshness,
decent styling the some of thefamous Japanese brands, perhaps,
at this point on styling alittle weaker than Americans and
some of the Europeans are alittle weak right now. But

(19:57):
basically everybody produces no
Nice vehicles with goodinteriors, everybody produces,
everybody offers Ralph the samesafety features. And it's no
accident because all of thesefeatures like lane departure
warning and

(20:18):
intelligent mirrors andetcetera, etcetera are all
brought to you by two or threeglobal suppliers. And everybody
gets the same stuff. So there'sa there's a good reason why cars
have achieved a degree ofsameness. But if you asked me
for some products that reallystand out,

(20:42):
after doing a lot of checking, Ijust bought a Cadillac lyric
sport. And he talked aboutinteriors, the interior is
spectacular. And it's got a 325mile range, which still does not
make it suitable for long roadtrips. And I'm not about to

(21:04):
stand in line for four or fivehours waiting my turn at a
charging station, which is Ithink the thing that makes Evie
still kind of a
local proposition when we getwhen we get 600 mile batteries
or 700 mile batteries, you knowthat issue is gonna go away, but
at present, it's still there.But the Lyric is an absolutely

(21:28):
outstanding vehicle. And in thefirst quarter, it outsold all of
the German luxury EVs let's BMW,Audi, Mercedes Benz and
Volkswagen combined. So thepublic is the public is
accepting it

(21:49):
in a big way. That's anoutstanding vehicle. Second,
there's no no doubt, Bob, from aproduct standpoint, the Lyric is
outstanding. No question. ButI'm a little surprised to see
you with electric with some ofyour comments in the past Well,
electric are at the beginning ofthe revolution, you know, we've

(22:10):
got 120 years of internalcombustion, it's near perfect.
The fuel is if gasoline hadn'tbeen invented, we should invent
it now. Because it's it has suchhigh energy density. But there's
a lot of advantages to EVs,which are not yet fully
realized, because we have towait for battery technology,

(22:32):
which it will, which it will, Imean, battery breakthroughs are
on the horizon. And in two orthree years, we'll have at fact,
lucid, has a 600 mile batterytoday. Nobody knows about it,
but it that's, that'spotentially a great sedan,

(22:53):
another one of my favorites,which is unique
both in terms of what itrepresents and how it sells and
what it does is the ChevroletCorvette with a long history and
I have three I have a 2010, ZRone, a 2015 06 and 2020 see a

(23:22):
mid engine. And these cars arefabulous. And you know that the
German companies and theItalians they keep buying them
and tearing them down becausethey can't figure out how
General Motors can make avehicle like that and sell it at
the price that we offer it andstill make money. It's still

(23:42):
other than sport utilities andpickup trucks. When I left GM,
it was still on a per unitbasis, one of the most
profitable vehicles in the GMportfolio and I have no doubt
that it still is the third onethat I really like again because
of its uniqueness, comfort,safety, spaciousness, all

(24:09):
terrain capability and so forth,is the GMC Yukon, which of
course, is the same as the ChevyTahoe and the mechanically near
identical to the Tahoe, and theCadillac Escalade, and I have a
a Yukon XL, which is the longwheelbase version, which

(24:29):
is equipped with supercruise. Sowhen I'm on the freeway, I punch
in supercruise. I take my handsoff the wheel and my feet off
the pedals. I lean back andrelax and prepare a cigar and
smoke it and the car does allthe driving from Ann Arbor to
Chicago, which is pretty amazingbecause

(24:50):
other companies offer similarsystems but they're not as well
developed. And whenever there'sa comparison test of
automated driving systems, theGM supercruise system always
comes out on top. And how aboutyour trust factor? I mean,
you're telling me you're leaningback having a cigar. So I'm
assuming you have some trust.But have you experienced any

(25:12):
close call where like you thinkI better paid while I'm
relaxing, you better payattention to the autonomous
drive. The unique thing aboutthe GM system is I don't know
how many around the road totoday, but probably since it's
been offered for the last fiveyears, probably close to 100,000
GM supercruise vehicles on theroad today. And to my knowledge.

(25:36):
Ford had offers a similarsystem, I think they've had one
or two instances of peoplereporting it didn't prevent an
accident or it caused anaccident or something. There is
not I don't think there has everbeen a single reported incident
on the GM supercruise system. Itis 100%. bulletproof. That's a

(26:02):
big statement. And you're goingback to Corvette, you're talking
about Corvette, and this is justmy memory. So if I'm off, we'll
edit it out. But you talkedabout, I believe, Corvette
tising or, you know, putting aCorvette in every line of
General Motors. Am I right orwrong about? No, that's that's
wrong. But the but the thoughtthe thought is correct. It just

(26:26):
like
Ford decided Mustang was a brandthat could be expanded as a sub
brand. So you've got the MustangMach E, which although
unprofitable for Ford, but it'sa pretty big hit in the Eevee.
Community sells well.
I think the Corvette Corvettecould be made into a sub brand

(26:54):
and position similar to Porsche.And I don't think, you know, a
Panamera for door would be aparticularly good idea. But
certainly a Cayenne type sportutility. Wood could be made very
Corvette like, and could be abrilliant seller. Interesting.

(27:17):
And does that bother you at all?And I'm not trying to be a smart
aleck. But you know, I wasrunning a Cadillac store. When
you talked about Cadillac, we'llnever have an SUV. Yeah.
In the old days,
when Cadillac announced thatthey were going to do the
Escalade, I thought that was inthe, you know, this is like 25

(27:39):
years ago, I thought it was ahuge mistake, gonna damage the
brand, at cetera, et cetera. Andnow it's the centerpiece of the
brand. And I thought the samething about
to a lesser degree, when Porschedid the Cayenne, and that today
is the core of that Brett wellliked, say the 911 is the

(28:02):
symbolic center, the brand likeWrangler is the symbolic center
of the Jeep brand. But theCayenne has been a huge success.
And the Lamborghini Urus isanother huge success. And
Ferrari is coming out with asport utility. And that will be
a huge success, because let'sface it,

(28:24):
many people want the brand. Theywant the performance, but they
want the convenience of a sportutility. They need some kind of
utility, you say you, you don'thave like an emotional issue.
And you mentioned Corvette SUV.
You're okay. If the market wantsit. I'm okay. As long as it's
done, right? And isn't a variantoff of some other General Motors

(28:49):
SUV? It would have to beuniquely Corvette in its
character, its appearance, andits technology, and it would
have to offer absolutely earthshattering performance. Okay,
got it. So going back, we'retalking about the gotta have,
and Warren helped me with someof these questions. So Warren

(29:13):
was extremely interested in ushaving a good conversation here.
So I want you to know behindyour back, there's a guy that
cares a lot about you and yourreputation.
What about what you think isgoing wrong with trends today?
Well, I don't think it'snecessarily a trend going in the
wrong direction. But I do think

(29:35):
car companies should try harder
to produce unique products thatdon't look like everybody
else's. I think that's amistake, because the minute your
product
becomes interchangeable witheverybody else's product. Now
you're competing on brand brandvalue, which which is

(29:57):
legitimate. You learn that overtime.
or you're competing on pricebecomes a disaster. Right?
That's exactly right. So I thinkyou said it because you said of
gasoline came out today, withthe energy units, it would be
the way to go. And I and I knowyou got the lyric. But in
general, are you gas hybrid orelectric? I'm for whatever is a

(30:20):
great vehicle. And I think, as Isaid, to me,
electric vehicles have becomepoliticized, you know, the,
the climate change fanatics, andthe Save the earthers, and the
left wing of the DemocraticParty, etc, etc, are all in on

(30:41):
electrics. And conservativeshave taken a hardcore position.
Like, it's almost become likethe Second Amendment, you know,
nobody's going to take my gaspowered car away from me. And
that's ridiculous. It's not apolitical issue. The mistake the
government, governments aroundthe world made, is trying to

(31:04):
force the technology faster thanthe consumer was willing to
adopt it at faster than thetechnology made the stuff really
good.
So we're not gonna have like, anovernight switch into electrics,
which every the media threeyears ago thought was gonna

(31:26):
happen, you know, everybody'snext vehicle was going to be
electric. Well, even Mercedessaid, after a date, I think 24
Or five that we are going tohave no more gas. But well, you
know, GM has said the samething, but as kind of
backpedaled on it a little bit,which is, which is smart.
Because you've finally youcannot violate the market, the

(31:48):
market is the market, andelectric vehicle will gradually
increase their percentages. Andin another 10 years time, we may
see 25% of the market electricin 30 years time, it may be 50%.
But it's gonna be a gradualtransition. Now. Will it

(32:11):
happened? I believe absolutely,because in so many ways, other
than the range issue. But in somany ways, electric vehicles are
simply vastly superior togasoline, they're slick, they're
silent, they have a lot fewermoving parts. Things like brakes

(32:34):
don't deteriorate, because thebraking is mostly regenerative
forth.
And
wait right now, from a co2standpoint, this is this is the
ridiculous thing.
They do not. I keep trying toexplain this to the climate

(32:56):
fanatics, they don't save anyco2, because
85% of America's electric poweris generated by fossil fuel. So,
whether the co2 is created atthe energy production plant, or

(33:16):
in the in the, in the, in thegasoline engine, at the tailpipe
it, the planet doesn't care, co2is the is co2. Now, at some
point, we'll have clean nuclearenergy. And then with if we
don't have to burn fossil fuelto charge our electric vehicles,

(33:42):
then I will buy the argumentthat they produce less co2. And
what about the diesel equipmentmining the materials needed for
the batteries?
The diesel equipment used formining the metals.
I mean, it depends how far upthe train you go. But even if

(34:03):
you go no further than powergeneration,
it's then you got transmissionlosses, because the power has to
be set out. So there's a certainamount of loss, then there's a
certain amount of losses when itgoes from your home power outlet
into the electric vehicle. So atthe end of the day,

(34:27):
you know, I've never seen awheeled well to wheels
comparison, but the like fuelcells, fuel cells are touted to
be absolutely zero emissions.All it comes out of the tailpipe
is water vapor, et cetera, etcetera. But they keep forgetting
that hydrogen does not exist. Ina raw state. It's got to be

(34:52):
created out of something. Soseparating the hydrogen from
whatever it's attached to. Rick
requires Guess what? Energy and
taking one form and creatinganother chemical form requires
energy. And that basicallyrequires creation of co2.

(35:14):
Secondly, fuel cell vehiclesneed the hydrogen compressed to
10,000 psi, what where does thepower come from, to compress all
that hydrogen. So, GeneralMotors, we actually did a well
to wheels analysis of all of thefossil fuels and energy that are

(35:37):
required to go into a fuel cell,and then did the miles per
gallon equivalent, and it comesfor fuel cells. Best case, it
comes out to about 65 miles pergallon. Well, you know, that's,
that's a long way from zero. Andan even so I think the 65 miles

(35:59):
per gallon was calculated by therabid fuel cell fanatics within
General Motors, who, by the way,led us down a garden path of
millions of fuel cell GMvehicles on the road by 2010.
Which you know, manifestly neverhappened, for good reasons. And

(36:22):
then fuel cells require allkinds of rare minerals like
palladium and platinum, and soforth. I mean, fuel cells, fuel
cells that really down onbattery electric vehicles I'm
high on. But we've got to getthe battery energy density up to

(36:44):
where we have reliable,affordable, at least 600 mile
batteries. And charging stationshave to be more plentiful, more
reliable, and word and chargingtimes. With an internal
combustion engine, you can put350 miles into the tank and five

(37:06):
minutes. Even with Eevee fastcharging, you can do maybe 80
miles in 20 minutes. That's withtoday's fast chargers. And
talking to people who ownreviens and Tesla's when they
get up to a charging station,they're usually fourth or fifth

(37:28):
in line. And they have to waitfor everybody else to get their
80 miles. And I'm not going tosit there at some charging
station for hours and hours,waiting until it's my turn. And
then in my 20 minutes, I get my80 miles, that that just makes
no sense for most people, andthey're quite right. I think

(37:49):
some people though, will getrich filming the arguments.
Who's next in line when there'sfive and
well, it's been done, it's beendone. And my friends who have
waited in charge in line saythat the atmosphere gets pretty
thoroughly. And we're watchingeverybody's watching the other

(38:09):
guy's car and saying, you gotyour 80 Miles get out of here.
Here we have reminds me ofwatching at a boat ramp with the
husbands and wives yelling ateach other, right?
So freaking gotta have it orforget it. What about the Bronco
from a design smash hit smashhit an extremely smart piece of

(38:32):
product planning on the on thepart of Ford and it is it's the
usual Ford Motor Company methodof doing the design to where it
mimics something much moreprestigious. You know, they did
that with Lincoln, they adoptedwhat can only be described as a
Bentley front end.

(38:55):
And when when I worked for Ford,when we did a new sedan or
something there was alwayssomething more prestigious in
this design studio and thestylists were told make it look
like that not exactly like that,but make it work and so forth at
the Bronco is clearly I admitthere's a lot of heritage of the

(39:18):
old little Bronco, the Bronco,the original tiny little Bronco
it does look a lot like that.But mainly it looks like a Range
Rover Defender which you knowsells for close to quite close
to twice the price and a lot oftimes when I see a Bronco for

(39:39):
door with the right colors andthe right trims. I have to think
oh I haven't seen a defender ina little while and then I look
at it's a bronco. And but
they they really spent wisely onthat they did short wheelbase,
long wheelbase hard cop saw

(40:00):
Stop, semi soft up removabledoors, non removable doors, wide
track narrow track, big wheels,narrow wheels, I mean, they
created a whole portfolio ofvehicles to where you can
customize that thing to exactlywhat you want and it's seriously

(40:20):
hurting Jeep of a Jeep had thatJeep had that market all to
themselves. And along comes theBronco and it has done serious
damage. So that's a brilliantexample of doing something new
and different and

(40:40):
doing a brilliant job atcreating it. So as a former GM
guy and GM loyalist, I admit,but
it's a shame that GM didn't wewere on the way to doing it with
Hummer
because we were going to createthe so called H three, which was

(41:01):
going to be about the size ofthe Bronco, many of the
characteristics of the Broncobut it was going to be a Hummer.
So we were on our way, butunfortunately, Chapter
eliminator Vien and we had todrop the brand. What about model
Y Tesla? Tesla's? Well, I thinkTesla is a great car.

(41:25):
I sometimes disagree with ElonMusk on his business philosophy.
And I, lately they've been seesawing back and forth. Will
there be a model two? No, therewon't be a model two are going
to Robo taxis. Oh, no, wait aminute, we're going to do us a
series of affordable cars. And Ithink what what's happened

(41:48):
is that everybody has discoveredthat Tesla is not a technology
company. And the stock is not atechnology stock. Tesla is an
automobile company. And theyhave to refresh their vehicles,
just like everybody else. Andthe Model S which is, I think, a

(42:08):
terrific car, and still one ofthe best looking sedans on the
road. What about the why? Thewhy I didn't like it at first,
but
it's it was I think, last yearor in 2022, it was the world's
best selling vehicle. Well, youmentioned you know, Tesla, not a
technology stock, but man Oh,man. How about the market cap?

(42:30):
Well, you know, it's ridiculous.There's no justification doesn't
make sense at all. How aboutToyota crown? Well, I, I kind of
like some of their newer stuff.
They've finally discovered orrediscovered the fact that
design matters.
And the new Prius for instance,is finally finally

(42:56):
apparently, from all reportswhile it might go up Motor Trend
Car of the Year, which meanssomething, so it must drive.
Well, I haven't driven one, butit's good looking. It's not
nerdy. No, it's finally not adork mobiel.
Folks, if you are a prior bodyPrius driver, I'm sorry, Bob

(43:17):
blood said it was a dark mobielI'm not the only one that term
comes from Elon Musk. That's whyhe decided to do the Roadster
initially because he was
intrigued with the idea ofelectric drive. And he saw
everybody buying these ToyotaPriuses or I don't know whether
the plural is priests Priuses orpre AI. If you're wanting

(43:42):
student is pre AI
buddies. Look at those dorkmobiles. We're gonna get we're
gonna do something electric thatattracts automotive fans. How
about cybertruck?
Well,
I think that was a colossalmistake. It was a good example
of doing something that looksdifferent.

(44:05):
But they could have made it lookthat way. Without going to all
of the pain of doing flat panel,stainless steel, bulletproof and
all of that stuff they justcould have. And the reason they
have so much trouble fabricatingit is because

(44:27):
everybody in the car industryknows. And I'm sure somebody,
many people told Elon and he wasnot in a listening mode, which
is fairly typical of him andusually pays off for him but
sometimes it doesn't. I'm sureeverybody told him to properly
build the body, automotive bodyand get decent stampings that

(44:50):
can be handled and weldedproperly. You must introduce a
little bit of crown to thesurfaces they
could have done some crown inthose surfaces a little bit in
the roof a little bit in thesides, a little bit in the hood,
I had the crown could have beenso slight, that it would be hard

(45:11):
for people to notice. But thenthey wouldn't have all these
horrible issues that they've gotin building the thing. And I'm
sure it's a huge money loser.It's way heavier than it has to
be.
I know they still have a lot ofadvance orders may be
ultimately, if they can get themanufacturing issues solved,

(45:33):
which is a big F, it might be ahit. But it will never displace
the products of RAM, GMC,Chevrolet and Ford. It'll be a
different buyer. It'll be aTesla fan. Who wants a truck?
Not a truck buyer who wants aTesla? Maybe Elon, you know,

(45:54):
when he doesn't always listen.Maybe he was going back to some
some old line about I don'tknow, I heard something about
often wrong. never in doubtsomebody once said, Well, yeah,
well, that. I mean, if you'regoing to be a leader, having a
degree of self confidence, andbeing relatively firm in your

(46:16):
opinions, is a good thing. Ifyou don't have
a really firm belief in whatyou're doing is right. You can't
convince others to follow you.But
I think most people, myselfincluded, there's always this

(46:36):
tiny little voice in the back ofyour back of your head. What if
I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong?What if I'm wrong? And that
little voice gets you to listento people? And thank God, you
know, many times in my career,I've absolutely wanted
something. And my guy said, Bob,look, don't do this. It's not

(46:58):
gonna work at or we can't buildit. And I push back a lot and
say, Yeah, well, you guys arejust negative, etc, etc. And
they'd come back and say, Bob,listen, we gotta tell you. One
more, one more presentation,we'll take it down to the shops.
And we'll show you the reasonswhy we can't do and then finally

(47:21):
and say, Okay, I got it. And, bythe way, if you run into that
much hostility,
it probably isn't going to work.Because the people at that
point, if you do a forced joband say, I don't care what you
guys say, I hereby ordain thatyou do it. They're gonna go into

(47:46):
malicious obedience. And you'llnever get a decent product.
Right? But you'd mentioned whenyou get hostility like that, but
I think it's, you're really justtalking about resistance. And
you know, it's not necessarilyhostile yet. But I'm always a
big fan and student ofleadership, not management, you
know, leadership. And the storyyou just told was actually a

(48:07):
little bit surprising to me.
Because you got a big persona,he got a big personality, you
got a big reputation. And whatyou just said, tells me that you
created an environment that madeit safe for people to give you
some rules. That was that wasanother thing I learned in the
Marine Corps. And it's in MarineCorps. leadership style

(48:28):
principles in that is that youadapt your leadership style to
the situation at hand. And whentime permits, you listen to your
subordinates. That means for asecond lieutenant, he listens to
the sergeants and corporals, whohave probably been in the
infantry a hell of a lot longerthan a freshly minted second

(48:50):
lieutenant. When you're acolonel, you listen to
lieutenants, and SergeantMajors. And if you go to
a Marine Corps weaponsdemonstration, the presentations
are not like in the movies wherethere's a two star general
standing at the with the mapsand with the pointer. In the

(49:12):
Marine Corps. Its sergeants andSergeants Major who gives the
presentation so the Marine Corpsstrongly believes in listening
to the troops. The only time youadopt a more draconian and more
absolutist leadership style isin an emergency situation where

(49:35):
there is either no time fordiscussion, or the situation is
so dire, that the troops arereluctant to take the measures
that you're going to ask them totake. And then you have to say,
look, we're in a toughsituation. We can't argue this.
We need everybody to cut theirbudgets by 20% I know it's

(49:58):
awful. I know you're gonna haveto get
Get rid of people. I know we'regonna have to delay programs.
But that's the situation we'rein. And I always tried to. I
never said, What I alwaysavoided, was once when they
said, Well, why do we have to dothis? I never said, because I

(50:19):
say so. That's, that's the signof a weak leader. A good leader
is capable of explaining thenecessity to the people that are
being asked to accomplish thetask. And I always used I always
used to the extent possible. Ialways used humor. But one GM

(50:41):
story when I got the GM, one ofmy in 2002 1001.
On my return at age 70,
I was at a first meeting of allmy direct reports, and it were
about 20 people in the room. AndI started, you know, just batter

(51:02):
and
telling them what I thought waswrong with GM products. And I
saw everybody hunched overpieces of paper, scribbling
furiously. So what are you? Whatare you What are you people
doing? So well.
You're a vice chairman, andyou're addressing us, and you're
giving us wisdom from yourcareer. And we're taking notes.

(51:26):
And I said, Guys, listen, youdon't know me very well. But I
tend to run off at the mouth.I'm what is technically known as
given to verbosity. And I say alot of things that don't make
any sense. And what I do is Itry to trigger responses in

(51:49):
people. And I say a lot ofcontroversial things, and I want
to hear pushback. And you peopleshould never be worried about
pushing back. The only thing I
just one rule.
Any one of you at any time, inany meeting, can say, Excuse me,

(52:12):
sir, you're full of sh i t. Iwould just ask you to say and
this got a big laugh, I'd sayyou have to preface it with the
words. With all due respect,sir, you are.
And everybody laughed. And youknow, what, two or three weeks
weeks later, we I think we werehaving an argument about fake

(52:35):
wood versus real wood and cars.And can the cars can the
consumer tell the difference?Because the cost difference is
like 10 to one. And I was as
fake wood today looks betterthan real wood in most
applications. And

(52:56):
that's when one guy finallysaid, Okay, I'm gonna test this.
This with all due respect, sir,you are And everybody
looked horrified to see how Iwas going to respond. I said,
Thank you, sir. For breaking theice. I've been waiting patiently

(53:16):
for somebody to do that. Now.Tell me why. And once we got,
once everybody understood thatnobody was going to be punished.
We had meetings that soundedlike verbal, free for alls, we
Schouten. And, I mean, we insulteach other. And I, I accepted as

(53:41):
well as I got, but you knowwhat, I never feared for my
authority, because I knew at theend of the day, they knew I had
the stripes. They knew who what,who was in charge. And they knew
that if I put my foot down, Iwas gonna get my way. So I I
never saw it as threatening myauthority or threatening my

(54:03):
position or hurting my ego. Ifpeople criticized my ideas or my
my opinions. Well, in you wereright. And it wasn't about
getting your way it was aboutleading and you sometimes got
lead. Well, was about gettinggetting to the right solution.
Right, right. Right.

(54:24):
So what's the best vehicleyou've ever owned? Well, that's
a tough one.
I have owned a lot of greatones.
I would say you know, for
everyday driving and putting itinto the context of the day,

(54:51):
which is 70s, early 70s. It washard to beat
three
litre fuel injected BMW coupe.
That was that was, I mean, abeautiful car, well made

(55:12):
reliable.
With the fuel injected version,I think at 210 horsepower,
which, back in those days wasawesome. And the ride was good.
It was the refinement was great.And that was back in the day
when, even when, even after Ileft BMW, people would ask me,

(55:36):
who do you think builds the bestcars in the world today? My
answer was invariably, BMWbecause when it came to
engine refinement, engine,reliable reliability of the
beautiful blend of performanceand handling, roominess fit and

(55:57):
finish
Brand Character, and it was hardto beat BMW weight distribution.
Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean,they had in their period of
rapid growth when they reallybuilt when they built the three
series, The Five series and theseven series. They were a

(56:19):
supremely outstanding automobilecompany. That's a good choice.
And there's a lot of people thatwould like to have one of those
from that era now.
I mean, CSI coops, and even theCSL lightweight coops, which
were had the naturally aspiratedengine for racing homologation

(56:39):
reasons. Even those are, youknow, the value of those, I
think, if you're looking at fouror $500,000, yeah, they're
precious. They're precious.
So, given the emphasis andeverything looking like
you think design is dead? No,because

(57:00):
if you look at what
Mike Simcoe has tried to do atGM,
he's developing a new designlanguage for Chevrolet. And if
you look at the new Chevroletblazer,
electric, the electric blazer,yes, it's a midsize, mid to

(57:21):
large ish size SUV, but it'stotally radically different
looking from everybody else's,and it looks great. The same
thing is true for the Cadillaclyric, and then you go to the
Cadillac

(57:42):
sell Mystique, even more so.
And
Buick is getting a new designlanguage. So I think Mike Simcoe
and the GM product development,people are keenly aware of the
problem of sameness out there.And I honestly think

(58:08):
it's a realization that a lot ofthe companies are coming to.
And so I'm hoping we'll see morediversity, because it's, it's
important, right now, he is notthat will tell you, but styling
is not dead. But when I look atsome of the German brands,

(58:30):
and I look at some of theJapanese brands,
they may not styling may not bedead, but it appears to be in a
coma.
It's the product stupid, well,and the product is really
90% of the product is how doesit look in the in an era of

(58:52):
increasing technologicalsameness, fuel economy,
sameness, right and handlingsameness, safety features,
fineness, reliability, sameness.
styling, makes the difference.Is that a is that a Duesenberg
you've got over your shoulder oris it a Chrysler Imperial?

(59:15):
That's a doozy and that isactually the old three Pebble
Beach poster. Okay. All right.It's
a certified duisenberg. It's alittle fuzzy on my screen, but I
was able to pick it out. Yep.Yep. Not bad. Do you see this
plaster model or is it notshowing up? It's not on the
screen. I have a plaster showroom model that was on my dad's

(59:41):
shelf and his lot in Royal Oak,Michigan that I ended up with.
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I don'tknow the model. It could have
been
done by Kaiser Fraser Kaiser.Yeah, it's somewhat reminiscent
of the Kaiser
Manhattan that actually might bewhat it is now that you

(01:00:03):
mentioned when I was a kid Ithought my dad said Nash and I
hadn't paid attention but thismight be a Kaiser Manhattan. So
you know Warren Brown talkedabout I don't know half hour 45
minutes and he said he got thebiggest interior education of
his life sitting with you in acar talking about the feel how
the the windows the knob makeyou feel like the manufacturer

(01:00:24):
spend some money.
But I want to ask you a two partquestion. What makes a good
interior but I also want tothrow in now that there's
touchscreens,
how do you think that impactsWell,
a good interior is the secondmost important

(01:00:45):
contact with the customer. Thefirst is the exterior
appearance. And then when thecustomer opens the door, the
interior asked to keep thepromise that the exterior mate
and this is where GM was so weakin the 90s and when at when I
joined them in that some of theexterior design wasn't that bad.

(01:01:10):
You know, the panels didn't fitvery well and the paint was
maybe a little dull, but theshapes were okay. But when you
open the door, you saw acres ofcheap, dark grey cloth,
dark grey plastic instrumentpanels with ugly knobs that went
clack, clack, clack when youmove them, and it looks so

(01:01:34):
downmarket I always said ourinteriors looked like they were
made by Mattel only forgot thecolors and
and
they were measuring the wrongface. They were looking at JD
Power, complaints offunctionality in the interior
and they said there's nothingwrong with our interior. Look at

(01:01:57):
our JD Power scores. Well, JDPower measures things gone
wrong. It never looks at thingsgone, right? It doesn't look at
the appeal. It doesn't. Itdoesn't measure whether people
bought the car because of theinterior or not. But a good
interior has to
have rich, rich lookingmaterials, whether it's wood, or

(01:02:23):
piano, black, or carbon fiber,etc, etc. And the materials have
to look genuine. So try tosubstitute aluminum spray Kade
spray campaign, instead offoiling real aluminum over him
doesn't work that immediatelysays bottom and then the

(01:02:46):
textures have to look like theyare soft, so that even if it's a
hard plastic instrument panelupper, it's got to be grained
and may be painted with a softtouch paint to where it looks
soft and compliant. The worstpossible thing is to look for

(01:03:09):
everything to look like it'sbeen armor alt. And then
instruments have to be clear,legible
look like they were they theyhave to if they're if they're
conventional instruments, theyhave to look like they came off
of a Swiss watch. So there arebuttons you can touch with the

(01:03:33):
customer. For instance, circularknobs. I like circular knobs
that feel like you're adjustingthe lens on an expensive camera.
If they go clack clack clackfrom position to position that
is not going to functionfunction of function wise,

(01:03:55):
there's nothing wrong with that.But it sends the wrong signal to
the customer. So the tactilefeels got to be good. The
materials have to be good. Thegloss levels have to be very
subdued, subdued. And thenadding a little bling doesn't
hurt. It's a few dollars on theinterior but putting a bright

(01:04:19):
ring around the cupholders saysvalue. And if you look at a
friend of mine collects 1960sAmerican luxury cars. He's got
70
and you should see these things.Mercury grant mercury, Grand
Marquis, Buick Doosan, aquarters

(01:04:43):
Lincoln's etc. You'd look at theinteriors of those things. Boy,
did we ever lavish money andchrome and attention on those
1960s interiors. I mean and thedoor
trim panels, the armrests, andlittle chrome surrounds around

(01:05:05):
everything. And
I mean, it was you open the doorand wow, look at all this stuff.
And then somehow, in the 80s and90s, we moved away from that.
And we went to these cheap andcheerful, dark grey and black

(01:05:25):
plastic interiors, which made nosense whatsoever. But the good
news is, everybody's getting it.General Motors slipped up a
couple of times after mydeparture, tried a couple of
downmarket pickup interiors that
created a lot of pushback. Butthe new GM interiors are great.

(01:05:50):
Chrysler, or still Ennisinteriors are wonderful. And in
my judgment,
the best premium interiors,possibly in the world right now
are produced by Lincoln, both inthe Navigator and in the
aviator. It's a shame with theinteriors on the Lincoln though

(01:06:12):
with the sheet metal, you know,Ford throwing all the money and
incentives to get rid ofinventory. But they haven't
updated sheet metal on Lincolnin a while. Yeah, well, that's
you know, that's that's startingto show, although the big the,
the aviator is fairly new. Andthe navigator is newer than

(01:06:33):
that. And the navigator, I don'tparticularly like the outside
shape. But the front end isnice. And the interiors are
dynamite.
Interiors, I agree. Are youstill flying? No. I packed it in
about four years ago at age 88.

(01:06:54):
Well, you know, I probably wouldhave done it by 87. But you
know,
I just told myself, you know,what?
My ability to fly the airplane,the military jet, or the
helicopter had not diminished.But I told myself, what if I had

(01:07:16):
to eject over northern Michiganwith no cell phone coverage, and
had to walk my way out for like10 miles to the nearest road?
In the old days, arguably, Icould have done it. But at age
88
I think I would have become wolffood in

(01:07:40):
10 Miles is St. Agnes.
Got it. Okay.
Do you think there's too muchtooling or parts production in
China? Well, yes, and no, I'mall for getting the best parts
and components possible at thebest possible prices. But

(01:08:04):
I do share the concern that theUS and Europe
might be victims of beinghollowed out by predatory
Chinese pricing. And there's noquestion, you know, we used to
associated Chinese stuff withcheap and cheerful. Well, it's

(01:08:25):
not cheap and cheerful. Theyhave brilliant engineers,
they've got a great educationsystem. The Chinese are a very
intelligent, hardworking,quality focus people. So they
produce that we shouldn't take.We shouldn't think that we are
in any way.

(01:08:47):
racially or ethnically superior,because we certainly are not.
But they also have a governmentthat subsidizes industry wants
to dominate the globalautomobile industry. And
I think if if the US gets hardevidence that China the Chinese

(01:09:13):
supplier industry, or automotiveindustry, for that matter, is
playing by different rules thanwhat we play by in the West,
then I think tariffs on Chinesestuff would be justified.
Interesting. Now I see you'vegot your books on display behind
so do we need to promote alittle? Sure. So a lot of

(01:09:36):
executives have read your book.But given a few years have
passed? What advice would yougive with your reading
experience since? Well, one,first of all,
the lessons in guts are sort oftimeless because they're lessons
in leadership. The lessons incar guys were

(01:10:00):
some bean counters are alsotimeless, because I said, car
guys versus bean counters, but
my ophthalmologist read thebook. And he said, when I read
that, I thought you were talkingabout the ophthalmology
industry. And people fromvarious industries tell me, You

(01:10:22):
know what, it's exactly the samein my business. And I'll bet
it's the same in the grocerytrade. And one thing, Boeing,
Boeing would not be in the messtoday. If enough people had red
car guys versus bean counters,because what happened to Boeing
is precisely what I would wantwhat car guys versus bean

(01:10:47):
counters, tried to warn everylarge company in America,
about which is bean counters arenecessary financial discipline
is necessary, the revenue comingin has to be higher than the
cost, etc, etc. But if you'reinto the airplane business, and

(01:11:08):
you no longer are being run byairplane, guys, with the bean
counters,
checking up on him and makingsure they don't go out of
control that's necessary. Whatwhat I, the analogy I use is the
product guides are the engine.And the bean counters are the

(01:11:31):
steering wheel, and the brakes.And for a successful car, you
need both. But you're not goingto have a race winning car if
the focus isn't on the gadget.
So I hope I am heartened by thefact that friends tell me that

(01:11:52):
I continuity, it's, by the way,Timeless Lessons in leadership,
what works and what doesn't. Andit kind of even before it became
well known, but I kind ofcovered the Elon Musk syndrome.
Because my premise in the bookis that successful leaders of

(01:12:14):
large organizations are oftenflawed individuals. They're
ultimately they're successful,but they have a weird side to
them, which makes them hard towork for. And I think you know,
Elon Musk is the poster childfor that, without question, the

(01:12:34):
most brilliant minds of the 21stcentury, but also without
question, the strangest and mostcontroversial CEO of the 21st
century. So which one do youwant to focus on? I think Jobs
had a pretty good reputation forbeing not so easy to work for.
Yeah, another another, anothergood example.

(01:12:56):
But I am heartened by the factthat
friends of mine who work forNASA,
tell me that car guys versusbean counters is being read by
people in NASA. And it's beingread in the Pentagon. So my
financial well being doesn'trely on book sales, happily. But

(01:13:20):
I would, I would like, thelessons especially of car guys
versus bean counters, and iconsand idiots. I would like to see
those lessons, or the Yeah, thethe lessons in the book more
broadly read, because I think itwould be good for

(01:13:40):
American society. What wouldsomeone be surprised to know
about you, Bob?
Well, I think many people aresurprised that I own two pet
pigs.
House and I love him dearly. Andpigs are I find them extremely

(01:14:00):
interesting animals. Because ifyou want slavish adoration all
day long, and somebody to tellyou how great you are 24/7 got a
dog. Pics don't do that. Pigsregard you as Winston Churchill
said, dogs worship us. Catslooked down on us, pigs consider

(01:14:24):
us they're equals. And that'sreally true is pigs are highly
intelligent, and they have theirown minds. And if you win the
affection of a pig, you'veearned it. And it's a very
interesting dynamic. Theinteraction with a pig is
something really wonderful. Ilove those things. The other

(01:14:47):
thing that many people might besurprised to hear is that I love
to cook and I spend a great dealof time in the kitchen. A third
thing that is becoming a littlebit better now.
One is that I am a veryenthusiastic practitioner of
time honored modeling media,which is making highly accurate,

(01:15:13):
highly detailed scratchbuild.Airplane and car models out of
paper. I saw that article. Yeah.Okay, so that was in Hemmings, I
think. And
so the word is getting out onthat one. Now the pigs, I'm
intrigued by the pigs, I've I'vecertainly heard about pigs,

(01:15:36):
relationships and pets andpersonnel. But are they
housebroken? I mean, you takethem outside and they go, they
are at birth, if you go to afarm and visit the pig site.
If you got 20 Pigs in a in oneenclosure, they select a corner
that is designated as the urineand defecation area. And the

(01:16:00):
rest of the place is clean.
And what Mother pigs havelitters. The first thing they
show him is you go here. Andwhen you get a baby pig, where
you usually when they're sevenweeks old, or eight weeks old,
you're just showing the litterbox, they may have one accident

(01:16:21):
before they get it. But they'reautomatically and totally
broken. But it's not aboutwaiting until you let them out
if they use a litter box, orpaper or whatever the area's
Well, you know, in the winter,when it's cold outside, they
prefer to use the litter box. Inthe summer, we leave the door
open and they go out on theproperty and an interesting like

(01:16:44):
humans, they don't want to beseen when they're going to the
bed really got there. So
as the pig breeder said, if youwatch that litter box the whole
time, they're not going to go,you have to go do something
else. And when you come back,you will find that the poop
fairy has visited the litterbox. That's, that's very, very,

(01:17:07):
very interesting. You know,naturally, it's
difficult to go when someone'swatching. But I would say that I
would rather pee while peopleare watching then tee off at a
golf course.
Want to say and what would youlike people to know about you? I
would like people to know that.Even though I'm a former Marine

(01:17:29):
officer, and
believe in duty and commitment.
I don't think I'm a hard personto work for. I think I'm
understanding I think I listen.I think I'm fairly empathetic.
And it bothers me what used tobother me in the

(01:17:53):
like the Wall Street Journal adhave a favorite phrase. Is that
that
cuff talking cigar chomping exMarine, Sergeant rock. Yeah. And
I don't think I'm like that. Ithink I'm basically very soft
and squishy. I can be hard whenI have to be but I don't like

(01:18:15):
doing that. That's not me. Didyou evolve to that? Bob? Did you
mature to that one of theleaders tools in the toolkit
that you occasionally have touse, and you have to be
assertive.
I see very nice people who arebright, have a great education.

(01:18:35):
And they're not assertive. Andif you're not assertive,
unfortunately, you're not goingto go anywhere. Bob, I want you
to know that for me personally,this is a moment I'll never
forget whatever celebrity orrock star or astronaut or
whoever you'd like to meet.That's what it was like for me
the last hour and change. Ireally appreciate it. You're

(01:18:56):
overly kind, but it feels good.All right, well, wonderful.
This has been Jeff Sternsconnected through cars