January 30, 2025 • 27 mins
“Noli Timere” is Latin for “be not afraid,” and the name of the world premiere presentation from Director and Choreographer, Rebecca Lazier and Sculptor, Janet Echelman. The collaboration features eight multidisciplinary performers dancing up to 25 feet in the air within a voluminous, custom-designed Echelman net sculpture.
Choreographed to an original score by JORANE, this fusion of contemporary dance, avant-garde circus, and sculpture explores the delicate interconnectedness and fragility of our world, offering a profound commentary on navigating our unstable ecosystem through art and advanced engineering.
One peak at Echelman’s net sculptures and you can immediately understand the breadth of talent on display. Known to sculpt at the scale of buildings and city blocks, this will be the first time that Echelman has designed a figure to allow for humans in her net.
Those humans are led by Princeton University Professor and choreographer, Rebecca Lazier who has choreographed more than 80 works presented in six countries. She is recognized as an audacious experimenter creating dances of explosive physical vitality inspired by the thinking and problem-solving that is possible through collaboration.
Take a listen to learn more about this impressive new spectacle, premiering worldwide at Mccarter Theater this February.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (00:03):
This is Gina Marie Rodriguez and you're
listening to the Jersey ArtsPodcast Noli Timere.
Latin for Be Not Afraid and thename of the world premiere
presentation from director andchoreographer Rebecca Lazier and
sculptor Janet Echelman.
The collaboration featureseight multidisciplinary
performers dancing up to 25 feetin the air with a voluminous,
(00:26):
custom-designed Echelman netsculpture Choreographed to an
original score by JORANE.
This fusion of contemporarydance, avant-garde circus and
sculpture explores the delicateinterconnectedness and fragility
of our world, offering aprofound commentary on
navigating our unstableecosystem through art and
advanced engineering.
(00:46):
One peek at Echelman's netsculptures and you can
immediately understand thebreadth of talent on display.
Known to sculpt at the scale ofbuildings and city blocks, this
will be the first time thatEchelman has designed a figure
to allow for humans in her net.
Those humans are led byPrinceton University professor
and choreographer, RebeccaLazier, who has choreographed
more than 80 works presented insix net.
Those humans are led byPrinceton University professor
and choreographer, RebeccaLazier, who has choreographed
(01:07):
more than 80 works presented insix countries.
She is recognized as anaudacious experimenter, creating
dances of explosive physicalvitality inspired by the
thinking and problem-solvingthat is possible through
collaboration, and that seems tobe the theme of today's
conversation Rebecca, Janet andI discuss the joys and
challenges that come fromcollaboration.
(01:28):
Take a listen to learn moreabout this impressive new
spectacle Noli to Marry.
I'd just like to thank you bothso much for being with me today
.
I'm super excited to talk toyou about this because it is
probably one of the more uniqueperformances or productions that
I've covered.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you.
How are you both?
Rebecca Lazier (01:48):
Terrific, so excited to be here.
We're in the middle ofrehearsals and it's been a
six-year process ofcollaboration with my dear Janet
and it's a thrill to be comingto the place to share it with
the public.
Janet Echelman (02:01):
And I would just mention that Rebecca and I have
been collaborating for the lastfive years, so you can only
imagine how anticipated thispremiere is for all of us.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (02:14):
I can only imagine when you say it's been
a five-year collaboration.
Did you know each other priorto this or did you meet because
of this collaboration?
You want to take it, Rebeccayes, yes, thanks, janet.
Rebecca Lazier (02:30):
Um, we met.
We met in 2018 at a conferencefor the intersection of arts and
engineering hosted at PrincetonUniversity and Janet was the
keynote speaker and I fangirledto her because I thought her
work was so extraordinary storyand actually one of my pieces
that had been collaboration withProfessor Naomi Leonard there
(02:50):
might be others was also part ofthe opening offerings and Janet
came up to me to talk to me andthat was a bit of kismet to
sort of what could we dotogether?
What would it be to have humansin the nets?
Janet Echelman (03:03):
So I fangirled Rebecca as well.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (03:06):
I love it so much.
I'm going to fangirl you bothnow, because I was looking at I
don't know what we want to callit a trailer or a teaser video
of this piece, and I mean, assomeone who is both afraid of
heights and unable to get intoand out of a hammock, this is
really stunning to me.
I find this piece justawe-inspiring.
(03:29):
Well, I'm sure that we couldtalk for hours about the
societal implications that couldbe inferred from this piece.
We are short on time, soinstead, rebecca, I'd like to
ask how do you go aboutchoreographing something that
will inherently be differenteach time it's performed, and
what does that experience meanto you?
Rebecca Lazier (03:48):
Great question.
Thank you, Gina.
The essence of this piece isimagine yourself standing on a
net where every shift of yourweight has a ripple through the
whole system.
Right, Even if you're thesmallest.
You just move one little keyelement, the whole thing changes
.
And so if someone else is therethe moment I shift something,
(04:09):
something in them changes, butif they fall I could be tossed
out.
So that sense of how our impact,it's an emotional impact, it's
a felt impact and it's madevisible, it's real.
And so a lot of thechoreography is very much about
what can we predict and what canwe not predict.
So we can predict connection,we can predict how we relate to
(04:30):
each other, we can set wherewe're going to be approximately
on a point in space and thenfrom there we have a language of
systems of movement, we have alanguage of seeing, we have a
language of responsiveness andcueing and tuning to each other.
But yes, there is thisunpredictability too, where if
someone just slides a little bitfurther, it's going to change
(04:52):
how someone else gets into thenet.
But there's a physicalintelligence that the dancers
have been gaining with eachrehearsal session and, for
example, you know we justreturned to begin a three-week
rehearsal session and thelearning curve is so fast
because they have so much intheir bodies about what it is to
learn to be one with this newapparatus, this new way of being
(05:14):
in space and in time, and witheach other.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (05:17):
It was so fascinating to me and Janet, you
had mentioned that it was youridea correct to introduce humans
into the space, so to speak.
Janet Echelman (05:28):
Well, I have long imagined humans dancing in
my nets or moving in and aroundand on top of my nets, but until
more recently, this has reallyjust been an incredible,
(05:48):
eye-opening experience gettingto collaborate with Rebecca and
the way that she choreographsher dancers in the net.
My only prior dance experiencewas a usage where the nets were
coming from above touching theheads of dancers, and this is
(06:09):
the first time that dancers areactually inside the nets,
exploring this sense ofprecarity which is where the
title comes from Like that, wheneven the ground beneath our
feet is no longer stable, thethe ground beneath our feet is
no longer stable, then I thinkthis is is an experience that I
(06:30):
certainly myself have been beenexperienced, really uh,
heightened since the pandemic,uh, and I think all of us in in
some way, are feeling a sense ofthe things that we, the
assumptions on which we basedour planning, our thinking
around, have changed, haveshifted and are constantly
(06:53):
shifting, and so the way thatRebecca is choreographing with
human movement and weight, evenhaving a dancer just stand still
in the net, is an incrediblefeat, uh, to see, uh, the energy
and difficulty of just, uh, youknow, stasis yes, damn, it was
(07:18):
beautiful brilliantly said,absolutely I.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (07:22):
I think I said that before the core
strength needed to perform in anet is I mean, you know, if I
can't handle a hammock, I haveno idea how you can handle
something.
25, 25 feet right, it's 25 feetin the air at the highest.
Rebecca Lazier (07:38):
Well, these artists are incredible.
They're coming from abackground that unites them,
experience experimental movementand aerial forms, and so they
have a comfort level.
They have a deep training andknowledge of those systems, of
how to care for themselves atheight.
And, you know, we think a lotabout risk taking in a way that
(07:58):
isn't necessarily about justshowing off what you could do at
a height, but is aboutemphasizing that precarity.
Like what is it for us all asan audience to feel on the edge
of our seat?
As if the ground is shifting,as Janet so beautifully said, as
if the world is about to change.
That edgeness, and then thesurrender and the landing and
(08:19):
the being together.
And so I think it comes part ofthe essence of the work to be
able to go to these edges whereperhaps one might feel like they
are in danger, and yet they'vegot their community there to
support them and help them andbring a wholeness to the world.
Janet Echelman (08:41):
And this is very emotional dance, one of the
themes.
You see dancers interact withone another one above the net,
where their weight is sinkinginto the net, and then one
hanging beneath them as theytouch or grasp one another
(09:02):
through this barrier as well.
So there are so manycomplexities that are explored
throughout the course of theperformance.
Rebecca Lazier (09:13):
And I think it's .
To me the emotional ride of itisn't as important to trace as
the sculptural ride, if youwould, or the arc.
Maybe we would want to say thatthere is joy, there's flying
and there is sorrow and there iscare, and how the dramaturgy of
the piece maps out through thesystem, because the nets are
(09:35):
suspended on pulleys that caneach change, so we can.
The sculpture completelychanges the humans, the inhumans
change the sculpture, so thatinterrelation isn't just between
dancers but it's between theenvironment and humans.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (09:49):
Now I'm curious, as I saw the nets a
little earlier.
There were multiple in yourrehearsal space.
Are there multiple nets?
Am I understanding, or how manyof these sculptures exist
within this piece?
Rebecca Lazier (10:04):
The sculpture is comprised of two nets that are
almost imagined, pocketssuspended that move together to
create one unified sculpture wecall them pillows.
Janet Echelman (10:19):
But so think of it as four layers of a patterned
painting that is made.
There are four soft layers andtwo of them suspend dancers, but
there is a volumetric airspacein between them, and so it.
(10:40):
And then these layers can belifted or lowered.
So the whole sculpture in flux,not only as it changes with
each body, as the feet putweight, or their back or
buttocks and shoulders arechanging the shape of the net,
(11:02):
but the net itself also movesthroughout the course of the
performance.
But the net itself also movesthroughout the course of the
performance.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (11:07):
When you mentioned that they were called
pillows, somehow my brain jumpedfrom pillow to cloud and I have
this vision of performersdancing among the clouds, and I
don't know if that wasintentional within the design,
but it's what sprang to mind assoon as you said pillows.
Janet Echelman (11:27):
I love that interpretation, and there are
many.
I mean, I often think of theseas multiple spheres of being.
You know, there's Dante'sInferno where you have, you know
, go from the depths to theheavens.
So there are multiple layers,and the dancers are also on the
(11:48):
ground and the audience, um, isof course in that same space yes
, I I mean the ideas of.
Rebecca Lazier (11:55):
I think there's so many layers of imagery that
I'll be so curious to hear whataudiences say after the
performances dancers in the sky,on clouds, as one might suggest
, or on the bottom of the earth,or on an ocean, or I think
there's environmental images andemotional images and all sorts
of ways this piece can beentered.
(12:16):
I think it's going to haveinterest to many different
backgrounds young people,children.
I think between the music andthe visual world and the human
world coming together, there isthis interplay of form that is
very exciting to witness.
Janet Echelman (12:38):
Well, I want to underscore something Rebecca
said about all ages, that thiswork is understandable and
appeals to a really wide range,from children to every age of
adult.
(12:58):
But we also, on Saturday at 2pm, have a relaxed performance
that is suitable for aneurodiverse audience.
So I think this is really themost open performance that we
have engaged in.
(13:19):
And Rebecca jump in here.
Yes, yes.
Rebecca Lazier (13:23):
Janet, thank you so much for remembering
mentioning that and also thewelcome the welcome to come to a
performance, and a relaxedperformance where you can come
and go, where there's curiousabout these things to come and
witness, and you don't have tobe a dance lover or a circus
(13:52):
lover to see this show.
It's a, it's a genuine interestin what might happen when.
Janet Echelman (13:59):
I want to mention one thing, which is we
have the most incredible dancers.
Most of them are coming fromthe dance world and many of them
are also trained in circus andhave performed with Cirque du
Soleil.
So there's this incredible,robust talent that is on display
(14:25):
and I it, you know, verycompelling Thank you so much for
bringing that up.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (14:31):
I think that's something I wanted to
talk about the circus nature ofthe dance as well.
If someone has seen Cirque duSoleil in the past, will they be
expecting something similar, oris it just almost a nod to?
Rebecca Lazier (14:48):
Yeah, I'll take that.
That's an interesting question.
I mean, I, I and the brillianceof Cirque du Soleil's early
productions was that integrationof music and dance and the ways
in which the show flowedbetween things and the
evocations of imagery.
And I think our piece has thatright.
(15:09):
It has that similar music ispropulsive, the set is
constantly changing, the humansin it are doing these daring
things.
So I definitely think there'srecognizable forms of awe, and
yet what I work atchoreographically is to keep the
(15:30):
human really present.
And so when we talk aboutcircus, it's an incredible field
of practices, and the fieldthat we've really specialized in
is the aerial form.
And what is that to be in theair?
What is it mean to be aboveground?
What does it mean to be betweenspace and flying and landing?
(15:52):
And so that will certainly befamiliar to those in the
audience, but it's experience inthose forms, but also hopefully
exciting and eye opening tothose who do not have that
experience and background.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (16:05):
Rebecca, you mentioned the music and I
think that's a good time tobring up your composer.
So this piece was choreographedto an original score by French
Canadian composer Joran, and I'dlike to know at what point in
the process?
This again was a five yearprocess, so at what point was
the music introduced and do youknow the inspiration behind this
(16:26):
particular composition?
I'm very curious as to theprocess.
Rebecca Lazier (16:31):
Yes, yes, I do.
Joran is an incredible cellistand vocalist and also works with
electronics.
She blends classical elementswith folk elements uh, very much
working at the intersection offorms musically.
And so I was actuallyintroduced to her.
I had built the piece with aelection of sound scores with my
(16:53):
favorite composers from, youknow, carolyn, carolyn Shaw and
Tyone Braxton to others, andreally felt like it was missing
a thread.
It was missing a heartbeat thatcarried us through a journey in
the music.
And so I was introduced toJeanne and went through her
whole oeuvre and spoke to herand saw her in concert and she
(17:15):
just watched some of our videosand composed a few tracks and
they were so on point and thenrevealed something that the
dance wasn't already doing.
And that's always such anincredible thing that I don't
want the music to just mimicwhere we are, but to add another
layer and add a depth ofrichness, like a good stock does
in a soup.
And so she came and was inresidence with us this summer,
(17:36):
summer when we had a four-weekresidency at PS21 in Chatham,
new York, which was apeace-changing moment for the
work, and she could come andimprovise with us and go and
create music in her studio andbring it back to us.
So it really also was a layeredcollaboration that continues to
the day.
She's coming next week to bewith us in studio again so we
(17:58):
can really continue that processtogether and that's really a
thrive on collaboration and tobe able to have a composer so
committed to the process andcome and join us has been a gift
.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (18:11):
There's so much about this collaboration.
I mean there must be.
I know that CreativeX atPrinceton University is involved
here and actually you'll behaving a talk back, I believe,
after the February 7thperformance, but I would love
for you to touch on howengineering feats are being
(18:31):
incorporated here, architecturalfeats.
There's more than just themusic and the performance and
the sculpture.
There's so much happening.
Rebecca Lazier (18:40):
When Janet and I first met, we immediately knew
we needed a relationship with anengineer to be able to solve
this problem, right To be ableto bring people to the nets.
And Sigrid Andresen is aprofessor of engineering at
Princeton University and shespecializes in tension-based
structures and was immediatelyfascinated with so many
(19:02):
questions that she brings tostudying this, studying how
movement moves through nets andhow that can have applications
across many, many fields.
And so we were fortunate to dosome work with her at the
University of Washington in thearchitecture department's
graduate school, and then morerecently we had a residency at
Princeton where engineer BillBaker came and a mathematician,
(19:24):
textile geometrist, came andJanet was there and riggers and
three dancers and a grad student, so that we really took time to
measure how forces move throughthe nets.
And it was a remarkable comingtogether that both expanded the
language the dancers had accessto in describing things they had
found intuitively and gave usnew insights into how to rig
(19:49):
these nets so that they behaveboth with stiffness and with
flexibility and dynamics.
So the coming together of theseforms has been critical for us
to be able to keep pushing theboundaries of what's possible
within the forms.
Janet Echelman (20:04):
And we should mention that in 2020, we started
to teach together.
Sigrid, rebecca and I startedcommuting to New Jersey, to
Princeton, to teach the ateliertogether, and that we were just
gearing up when suddenlyCOVID-19 appeared and we had to
(20:27):
adapt.
Just like the dancers areadapting in the net, we also
adapted in our process and foundnew ways to collaborate.
And also we should mention thatsome of the engineering
advisors on this project are thesame people who, in New York
City, advise Broadway for flyingactors.
(20:50):
So it's really a comingtogether of disparate fields in
a very exciting way.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (20:57):
I love that connection so much, and
maybe this is a simplisticquestion, but as we're talking
about collaboration, can I askwhat about the act of
collaboration?
Brings you each joy?
Rebecca Lazier (21:11):
I think at the heart of a collaboration is the
relationship.
It brings me great joy wheneverI see Janet's name on my phone,
whenever I talk to her, and Ithink part of what has kept this
piece going is my respect andhumble gratitude and just
(21:33):
amazement at Janet's view of theworld and her way in the world,
and that's certainly thedrivers of collaboration for me,
because they allow me to go tonew places as well.
Janet Echelman (21:45):
I think the word I might pick is discovery,
because it's like a good loverelationship where you're
discovering things that youwould not have thought of by
yourself and you know that'swhat's so exciting.
(22:06):
You know the word collaborationis bandied about very
frequently and I honestly thinkit's typically not real
collaboration.
For me, real collaboration iswhere I am so vulnerable that I
am engaging in a way where Idon't know where it's going to
(22:27):
go.
I'm engaging with things Idon't know.
I'm asking Rebecca, I'm askingSigrid and the engineering team.
You know what is possibleasking Sigrid and the
engineering team.
You know what is possible.
And you know I learn.
You know I've been makingsculpture with fiber at the
scale of buildings that you knowthey dance with the wind,
(22:49):
hurricanes and you know everykind of weather.
But I've never had the chanceto collaborate with someone like
Rebecca as a choreographer, andthe dancers.
So I had to change the natureof the fibers that I braid into
twines and the thickness and thesoftness because of the
(23:12):
dancers' feet.
We tried different kinds and Ihad to change because this is a
collaboration with human beings.
This is not just the elementsof nature, or at least climate
and wind and snow and ice.
So that has been a learningexperience.
But I think the key for me isthat vulnerability to discover
(23:37):
something I would not havethought of or known were it not
for us to be collaborating.
So it is creating somethingthat would not exist were we not
to make it together.
Rebecca Lazier (23:53):
Brilliantly said Janet, I agree wholeheartedly.
Janet Echelman (24:00):
Brilliantly said janet, I agree wholeheartedly I
would not be putting humans inthe nets without you.
Well, I think the relationshipsare sort of the icing.
It's like the wonderful thing.
When people ask me you know,why are you spending, you know,
all your time doing these crazyprojects with choreographers, I
say, well, it's therelationships.
You know, we have become suchdear friends and we have, you
(24:25):
know, we have been workshoppingin New Jersey, at Princeton, in
Seattle Washington, in Halifax,nova Scotia, in Montreal, quebec
, in Halifax, nova Scotia, inMontreal, quebec, and in, I mean
I think they're oh, and then inNew York, chatham, yeah, so
(24:46):
it's really been this.
You know ever-changing, thedancers also change which, and
they bring a variety ofbackgrounds, from hip hop and
street dancing, you know, toaerial artists and you know very
classically trained dancers.
So there's discovery happeningand I think vulnerability in the
(25:12):
process is really apparent inthe outcome.
That's where the surprises come.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (25:21):
I was saying that I'm enamored of the
fact that, janet, you brought upvulnerability as key to
collaboration, because I thinkthat what I love most about
artists is their willingness tobe vulnerable.
Rebecca Lazier (25:35):
Yes, yes, Do you know the expression when you
have children?
They talk about how it's likewalking with your heart outside
of your body.
I don't know who to credit thisto, but I think of it similarly
in art making.
I think I've never felt asvulnerable as I do leading up to
this premiere, in terms of somany layers coming together and
(25:58):
between the nuances of therigging and the needs of all
elements cascading and comingtogether, and the lighting
design is going to be incredibleby Leanne Vardy, and so that
investment and I love thatexpression.
You having children is likewatching your heart walk outside
of you and be apart from you,and yet you have to be okay with
(26:21):
that.
And it is like this with arttoo.
It is a thing that is a lettinggo and it is a thing of nurture
and it is a thing of becomingits own, being a bit of a mantra
for us to be not afraid.
You know it's be not if there'sso many steps upon which you
could become afraid, and yet wehave to have that mantra to be
(26:42):
able to move forward in theworld.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (26:45):
What a beautiful message.
May we all remind ourselves.
Moving forward.
Be not afraid.
Noli Tameri will celebratetheir world premiere with three
performances at McCarter TheaterCenter in Princeton from
February 7th through February8th.
For tickets and moreinformation, be sure to visit
mccarterorg.
If you liked this episode, besure to review, subscribe and
(27:06):
tell your friends.
A transcript of this podcast,links relevant to the story and
more about the arts in NewJersey can be found at
JerseyArts.
com.
The Jersey Arts Podcast ispresented by Art Pride New
Jersey, advancing a state ofcreativity since 1986.
The show was co-founded by andcurrently supported by, funds
from the New Jersey StateCouncil on the Arts.
This episode was hosted, editedand produced by me, Gina Marie
(27:30):
Rodriguez.
Executive producers are JimAtkinson and Isaac Serna-Diez,
and my thanks to Rebecca Lazierand Janet Echelman for speaking
with me today.
I'm Gina Marie Rodriguez forthe Jersey Arts Podcast.
Thanks for listening.
This is Gina Marie Rodriguez and you're
listening to the Jersey ArtsPodcast Noli Timere.
Latin for Be Not Afraid and thename of the world premiere
presentation from director andchoreographer Rebecca Lazier and
sculptor Janet Echelman.
The collaboration featureseight multidisciplinary
performers dancing up to 25 feetin the air with a voluminous,
(00:26):
custom-designed Echelman netsculpture Choreographed to an
original score by JORANE.
This fusion of contemporarydance, avant-garde circus and
sculpture explores the delicateinterconnectedness and fragility
of our world, offering aprofound commentary on
navigating our unstableecosystem through art and
advanced engineering.
(00:46):
One peek at Echelman's netsculptures and you can
immediately understand thebreadth of talent on display.
Known to sculpt at the scale ofbuildings and city blocks, this
will be the first time thatEchelman has designed a figure
to allow for humans in her net.
Those humans are led byPrinceton University professor
and choreographer, RebeccaLazier, who has choreographed
more than 80 works presented insix net.
Those humans are led byPrinceton University professor
and choreographer, RebeccaLazier, who has choreographed
(01:07):
more than 80 works presented insix countries.
She is recognized as anaudacious experimenter, creating
dances of explosive physicalvitality inspired by the
thinking and problem-solvingthat is possible through
collaboration, and that seems tobe the theme of today's
conversation Rebecca, Janet andI discuss the joys and
challenges that come fromcollaboration.
(01:28):
Take a listen to learn moreabout this impressive new
spectacle Noli to Marry.
I'd just like to thank you bothso much for being with me today
.
I'm super excited to talk toyou about this because it is
probably one of the more uniqueperformances or productions that
I've covered.
So thank you, thank you, thankyou, thank you.
How are you both?
Rebecca Lazier (01:48):
Terrific, so excited to be here.
We're in the middle ofrehearsals and it's been a
six-year process ofcollaboration with my dear Janet
and it's a thrill to be comingto the place to share it with
the public.
Janet Echelman (02:01):
And I would just mention that Rebecca and I have
been collaborating for the lastfive years, so you can only
imagine how anticipated thispremiere is for all of us.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (02:14):
I can only imagine when you say it's been
a five-year collaboration.
Did you know each other priorto this or did you meet because
of this collaboration?
You want to take it, Rebeccayes, yes, thanks, janet.
Rebecca Lazier (02:30):
Um, we met.
We met in 2018 at a conferencefor the intersection of arts and
engineering hosted at PrincetonUniversity and Janet was the
keynote speaker and I fangirledto her because I thought her
work was so extraordinary storyand actually one of my pieces
that had been collaboration withProfessor Naomi Leonard there
(02:50):
might be others was also part ofthe opening offerings and Janet
came up to me to talk to me andthat was a bit of kismet to
sort of what could we dotogether?
What would it be to have humansin the nets?
Janet Echelman (03:03):
So I fangirled Rebecca as well.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (03:06):
I love it so much.
I'm going to fangirl you bothnow, because I was looking at I
don't know what we want to callit a trailer or a teaser video
of this piece, and I mean, assomeone who is both afraid of
heights and unable to get intoand out of a hammock, this is
really stunning to me.
I find this piece justawe-inspiring.
(03:29):
Well, I'm sure that we couldtalk for hours about the
societal implications that couldbe inferred from this piece.
We are short on time, soinstead, rebecca, I'd like to
ask how do you go aboutchoreographing something that
will inherently be differenteach time it's performed, and
what does that experience meanto you?
Rebecca Lazier (03:48):
Great question.
Thank you, Gina.
The essence of this piece isimagine yourself standing on a
net where every shift of yourweight has a ripple through the
whole system.
Right, Even if you're thesmallest.
You just move one little keyelement, the whole thing changes
.
And so if someone else is therethe moment I shift something,
(04:09):
something in them changes, butif they fall I could be tossed
out.
So that sense of how our impact,it's an emotional impact, it's
a felt impact and it's madevisible, it's real.
And so a lot of thechoreography is very much about
what can we predict and what canwe not predict.
So we can predict connection,we can predict how we relate to
(04:30):
each other, we can set wherewe're going to be approximately
on a point in space and thenfrom there we have a language of
systems of movement, we have alanguage of seeing, we have a
language of responsiveness andcueing and tuning to each other.
But yes, there is thisunpredictability too, where if
someone just slides a little bitfurther, it's going to change
(04:52):
how someone else gets into thenet.
But there's a physicalintelligence that the dancers
have been gaining with eachrehearsal session and, for
example, you know we justreturned to begin a three-week
rehearsal session and thelearning curve is so fast
because they have so much intheir bodies about what it is to
learn to be one with this newapparatus, this new way of being
(05:14):
in space and in time, and witheach other.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (05:17):
It was so fascinating to me and Janet, you
had mentioned that it was youridea correct to introduce humans
into the space, so to speak.
Janet Echelman (05:28):
Well, I have long imagined humans dancing in
my nets or moving in and aroundand on top of my nets, but until
more recently, this has reallyjust been an incredible,
(05:48):
eye-opening experience gettingto collaborate with Rebecca and
the way that she choreographsher dancers in the net.
My only prior dance experiencewas a usage where the nets were
coming from above touching theheads of dancers, and this is
(06:09):
the first time that dancers areactually inside the nets,
exploring this sense ofprecarity which is where the
title comes from Like that, wheneven the ground beneath our
feet is no longer stable, thethe ground beneath our feet is
no longer stable, then I thinkthis is is an experience that I
(06:30):
certainly myself have been beenexperienced, really uh,
heightened since the pandemic,uh, and I think all of us in in
some way, are feeling a sense ofthe things that we, the
assumptions on which we basedour planning, our thinking
around, have changed, haveshifted and are constantly
(06:53):
shifting, and so the way thatRebecca is choreographing with
human movement and weight, evenhaving a dancer just stand still
in the net, is an incrediblefeat, uh, to see, uh, the energy
and difficulty of just, uh, youknow, stasis yes, damn, it was
(07:18):
beautiful brilliantly said,absolutely I.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (07:22):
I think I said that before the core
strength needed to perform in anet is I mean, you know, if I
can't handle a hammock, I haveno idea how you can handle
something.
25, 25 feet right, it's 25 feetin the air at the highest.
Rebecca Lazier (07:38):
Well, these artists are incredible.
They're coming from abackground that unites them,
experience experimental movementand aerial forms, and so they
have a comfort level.
They have a deep training andknowledge of those systems, of
how to care for themselves atheight.
And, you know, we think a lotabout risk taking in a way that
(07:58):
isn't necessarily about justshowing off what you could do at
a height, but is aboutemphasizing that precarity.
Like what is it for us all asan audience to feel on the edge
of our seat?
As if the ground is shifting,as Janet so beautifully said, as
if the world is about to change.
That edgeness, and then thesurrender and the landing and
(08:19):
the being together.
And so I think it comes part ofthe essence of the work to be
able to go to these edges whereperhaps one might feel like they
are in danger, and yet they'vegot their community there to
support them and help them andbring a wholeness to the world.
Janet Echelman (08:41):
And this is very emotional dance, one of the
themes.
You see dancers interact withone another one above the net,
where their weight is sinkinginto the net, and then one
hanging beneath them as theytouch or grasp one another
(09:02):
through this barrier as well.
So there are so manycomplexities that are explored
throughout the course of theperformance.
Rebecca Lazier (09:13):
And I think it's .
To me the emotional ride of itisn't as important to trace as
the sculptural ride, if youwould, or the arc.
Maybe we would want to say thatthere is joy, there's flying
and there is sorrow and there iscare, and how the dramaturgy of
the piece maps out through thesystem, because the nets are
(09:35):
suspended on pulleys that caneach change, so we can.
The sculpture completelychanges the humans, the inhumans
change the sculpture, so thatinterrelation isn't just between
dancers but it's between theenvironment and humans.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (09:49):
Now I'm curious, as I saw the nets a
little earlier.
There were multiple in yourrehearsal space.
Are there multiple nets?
Am I understanding, or how manyof these sculptures exist
within this piece?
Rebecca Lazier (10:04):
The sculpture is comprised of two nets that are
almost imagined, pocketssuspended that move together to
create one unified sculpture wecall them pillows.
Janet Echelman (10:19):
But so think of it as four layers of a patterned
painting that is made.
There are four soft layers andtwo of them suspend dancers, but
there is a volumetric airspacein between them, and so it.
(10:40):
And then these layers can belifted or lowered.
So the whole sculpture in flux,not only as it changes with
each body, as the feet putweight, or their back or
buttocks and shoulders arechanging the shape of the net,
(11:02):
but the net itself also movesthroughout the course of the
performance.
But the net itself also movesthroughout the course of the
performance.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (11:07):
When you mentioned that they were called
pillows, somehow my brain jumpedfrom pillow to cloud and I have
this vision of performersdancing among the clouds, and I
don't know if that wasintentional within the design,
but it's what sprang to mind assoon as you said pillows.
Janet Echelman (11:27):
I love that interpretation, and there are
many.
I mean, I often think of theseas multiple spheres of being.
You know, there's Dante'sInferno where you have, you know
, go from the depths to theheavens.
So there are multiple layers,and the dancers are also on the
(11:48):
ground and the audience, um, isof course in that same space yes
, I I mean the ideas of.
Rebecca Lazier (11:55):
I think there's so many layers of imagery that
I'll be so curious to hear whataudiences say after the
performances dancers in the sky,on clouds, as one might suggest
, or on the bottom of the earth,or on an ocean, or I think
there's environmental images andemotional images and all sorts
of ways this piece can beentered.
(12:16):
I think it's going to haveinterest to many different
backgrounds young people,children.
I think between the music andthe visual world and the human
world coming together, there isthis interplay of form that is
very exciting to witness.
Janet Echelman (12:38):
Well, I want to underscore something Rebecca
said about all ages, that thiswork is understandable and
appeals to a really wide range,from children to every age of
adult.
(12:58):
But we also, on Saturday at 2pm, have a relaxed performance
that is suitable for aneurodiverse audience.
So I think this is really themost open performance that we
have engaged in.
(13:19):
And Rebecca jump in here.
Yes, yes.
Rebecca Lazier (13:23):
Janet, thank you so much for remembering
mentioning that and also thewelcome the welcome to come to a
performance, and a relaxedperformance where you can come
and go, where there's curiousabout these things to come and
witness, and you don't have tobe a dance lover or a circus
(13:52):
lover to see this show.
It's a, it's a genuine interestin what might happen when.
Janet Echelman (13:59):
I want to mention one thing, which is we
have the most incredible dancers.
Most of them are coming fromthe dance world and many of them
are also trained in circus andhave performed with Cirque du
Soleil.
So there's this incredible,robust talent that is on display
(14:25):
and I it, you know, verycompelling Thank you so much for
bringing that up.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (14:31):
I think that's something I wanted to
talk about the circus nature ofthe dance as well.
If someone has seen Cirque duSoleil in the past, will they be
expecting something similar, oris it just almost a nod to?
Rebecca Lazier (14:48):
Yeah, I'll take that.
That's an interesting question.
I mean, I, I and the brillianceof Cirque du Soleil's early
productions was that integrationof music and dance and the ways
in which the show flowedbetween things and the
evocations of imagery.
And I think our piece has thatright.
(15:09):
It has that similar music ispropulsive, the set is
constantly changing, the humansin it are doing these daring
things.
So I definitely think there'srecognizable forms of awe, and
yet what I work atchoreographically is to keep the
(15:30):
human really present.
And so when we talk aboutcircus, it's an incredible field
of practices, and the fieldthat we've really specialized in
is the aerial form.
And what is that to be in theair?
What is it mean to be aboveground?
What does it mean to be betweenspace and flying and landing?
(15:52):
And so that will certainly befamiliar to those in the
audience, but it's experience inthose forms, but also hopefully
exciting and eye opening tothose who do not have that
experience and background.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (16:05):
Rebecca, you mentioned the music and I
think that's a good time tobring up your composer.
So this piece was choreographedto an original score by French
Canadian composer Joran, and I'dlike to know at what point in
the process?
This again was a five yearprocess, so at what point was
the music introduced and do youknow the inspiration behind this
(16:26):
particular composition?
I'm very curious as to theprocess.
Rebecca Lazier (16:31):
Yes, yes, I do.
Joran is an incredible cellistand vocalist and also works with
electronics.
She blends classical elementswith folk elements uh, very much
working at the intersection offorms musically.
And so I was actuallyintroduced to her.
I had built the piece with aelection of sound scores with my
(16:53):
favorite composers from, youknow, carolyn, carolyn Shaw and
Tyone Braxton to others, andreally felt like it was missing
a thread.
It was missing a heartbeat thatcarried us through a journey in
the music.
And so I was introduced toJeanne and went through her
whole oeuvre and spoke to herand saw her in concert and she
(17:15):
just watched some of our videosand composed a few tracks and
they were so on point and thenrevealed something that the
dance wasn't already doing.
And that's always such anincredible thing that I don't
want the music to just mimicwhere we are, but to add another
layer and add a depth ofrichness, like a good stock does
in a soup.
And so she came and was inresidence with us this summer,
(17:36):
summer when we had a four-weekresidency at PS21 in Chatham,
new York, which was apeace-changing moment for the
work, and she could come andimprovise with us and go and
create music in her studio andbring it back to us.
So it really also was a layeredcollaboration that continues to
the day.
She's coming next week to bewith us in studio again so we
(17:58):
can really continue that processtogether and that's really a
thrive on collaboration and tobe able to have a composer so
committed to the process andcome and join us has been a gift
.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (18:11):
There's so much about this collaboration.
I mean there must be.
I know that CreativeX atPrinceton University is involved
here and actually you'll behaving a talk back, I believe,
after the February 7thperformance, but I would love
for you to touch on howengineering feats are being
(18:31):
incorporated here, architecturalfeats.
There's more than just themusic and the performance and
the sculpture.
There's so much happening.
Rebecca Lazier (18:40):
When Janet and I first met, we immediately knew
we needed a relationship with anengineer to be able to solve
this problem, right To be ableto bring people to the nets.
And Sigrid Andresen is aprofessor of engineering at
Princeton University and shespecializes in tension-based
structures and was immediatelyfascinated with so many
(19:02):
questions that she brings tostudying this, studying how
movement moves through nets andhow that can have applications
across many, many fields.
And so we were fortunate to dosome work with her at the
University of Washington in thearchitecture department's
graduate school, and then morerecently we had a residency at
Princeton where engineer BillBaker came and a mathematician,
(19:24):
textile geometrist, came andJanet was there and riggers and
three dancers and a grad student, so that we really took time to
measure how forces move throughthe nets.
And it was a remarkable comingtogether that both expanded the
language the dancers had accessto in describing things they had
found intuitively and gave usnew insights into how to rig
(19:49):
these nets so that they behaveboth with stiffness and with
flexibility and dynamics.
So the coming together of theseforms has been critical for us
to be able to keep pushing theboundaries of what's possible
within the forms.
Janet Echelman (20:04):
And we should mention that in 2020, we started
to teach together.
Sigrid, rebecca and I startedcommuting to New Jersey, to
Princeton, to teach the ateliertogether, and that we were just
gearing up when suddenlyCOVID-19 appeared and we had to
(20:27):
adapt.
Just like the dancers areadapting in the net, we also
adapted in our process and foundnew ways to collaborate.
And also we should mention thatsome of the engineering
advisors on this project are thesame people who, in New York
City, advise Broadway for flyingactors.
(20:50):
So it's really a comingtogether of disparate fields in
a very exciting way.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (20:57):
I love that connection so much, and
maybe this is a simplisticquestion, but as we're talking
about collaboration, can I askwhat about the act of
collaboration?
Brings you each joy?
Rebecca Lazier (21:11):
I think at the heart of a collaboration is the
relationship.
It brings me great joy wheneverI see Janet's name on my phone,
whenever I talk to her, and Ithink part of what has kept this
piece going is my respect andhumble gratitude and just
(21:33):
amazement at Janet's view of theworld and her way in the world,
and that's certainly thedrivers of collaboration for me,
because they allow me to go tonew places as well.
Janet Echelman (21:45):
I think the word I might pick is discovery,
because it's like a good loverelationship where you're
discovering things that youwould not have thought of by
yourself and you know that'swhat's so exciting.
(22:06):
You know the word collaborationis bandied about very
frequently and I honestly thinkit's typically not real
collaboration.
For me, real collaboration iswhere I am so vulnerable that I
am engaging in a way where Idon't know where it's going to
(22:27):
go.
I'm engaging with things Idon't know.
I'm asking Rebecca, I'm askingSigrid and the engineering team.
You know what is possibleasking Sigrid and the
engineering team.
You know what is possible.
And you know I learn.
You know I've been makingsculpture with fiber at the
scale of buildings that you knowthey dance with the wind,
(22:49):
hurricanes and you know everykind of weather.
But I've never had the chanceto collaborate with someone like
Rebecca as a choreographer, andthe dancers.
So I had to change the natureof the fibers that I braid into
twines and the thickness and thesoftness because of the
(23:12):
dancers' feet.
We tried different kinds and Ihad to change because this is a
collaboration with human beings.
This is not just the elementsof nature, or at least climate
and wind and snow and ice.
So that has been a learningexperience.
But I think the key for me isthat vulnerability to discover
(23:37):
something I would not havethought of or known were it not
for us to be collaborating.
So it is creating somethingthat would not exist were we not
to make it together.
Rebecca Lazier (23:53):
Brilliantly said Janet, I agree wholeheartedly.
Janet Echelman (24:00):
Brilliantly said janet, I agree wholeheartedly I
would not be putting humans inthe nets without you.
Well, I think the relationshipsare sort of the icing.
It's like the wonderful thing.
When people ask me you know,why are you spending, you know,
all your time doing these crazyprojects with choreographers, I
say, well, it's therelationships.
You know, we have become suchdear friends and we have, you
(24:25):
know, we have been workshoppingin New Jersey, at Princeton, in
Seattle Washington, in Halifax,nova Scotia, in Montreal, quebec
, in Halifax, nova Scotia, inMontreal, quebec, and in, I mean
I think they're oh, and then inNew York, chatham, yeah, so
(24:46):
it's really been this.
You know ever-changing, thedancers also change which, and
they bring a variety ofbackgrounds, from hip hop and
street dancing, you know, toaerial artists and you know very
classically trained dancers.
So there's discovery happeningand I think vulnerability in the
(25:12):
process is really apparent inthe outcome.
That's where the surprises come.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (25:21):
I was saying that I'm enamored of the
fact that, janet, you brought upvulnerability as key to
collaboration, because I thinkthat what I love most about
artists is their willingness tobe vulnerable.
Rebecca Lazier (25:35):
Yes, yes, Do you know the expression when you
have children?
They talk about how it's likewalking with your heart outside
of your body.
I don't know who to credit thisto, but I think of it similarly
in art making.
I think I've never felt asvulnerable as I do leading up to
this premiere, in terms of somany layers coming together and
(25:58):
between the nuances of therigging and the needs of all
elements cascading and comingtogether, and the lighting
design is going to be incredibleby Leanne Vardy, and so that
investment and I love thatexpression.
You having children is likewatching your heart walk outside
of you and be apart from you,and yet you have to be okay with
(26:21):
that.
And it is like this with arttoo.
It is a thing that is a lettinggo and it is a thing of nurture
and it is a thing of becomingits own, being a bit of a mantra
for us to be not afraid.
You know it's be not if there'sso many steps upon which you
could become afraid, and yet wehave to have that mantra to be
(26:42):
able to move forward in theworld.
Gina Marie Rodriguez (26:45):
What a beautiful message.
May we all remind ourselves.
Moving forward.
Be not afraid.
Noli Tameri will celebratetheir world premiere with three
performances at McCarter TheaterCenter in Princeton from
February 7th through February8th.
For tickets and moreinformation, be sure to visit
mccarterorg.
If you liked this episode, besure to review, subscribe and
(27:06):
tell your friends.
A transcript of this podcast,links relevant to the story and
more about the arts in NewJersey can be found at
JerseyArts.
com.
The Jersey Arts Podcast ispresented by Art Pride New
Jersey, advancing a state ofcreativity since 1986.
The show was co-founded by andcurrently supported by, funds
from the New Jersey StateCouncil on the Arts.
This episode was hosted, editedand produced by me, Gina Marie
(27:30):
Rodriguez.
Executive producers are JimAtkinson and Isaac Serna-Diez,
and my thanks to Rebecca Lazierand Janet Echelman for speaking
with me today.
I'm Gina Marie Rodriguez forthe Jersey Arts Podcast.
Thanks for listening.
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