Heroes Helping Heroes Heal

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:32):
Music.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
All right guys, Welcome back to another episode
of Just Out of Jurisdiction wegot another pretty full table.
Of course Doug's back with usagain, but he'll hide in silence
.
He's here.
He don't want me to call himout, but it's going to happen
every time.
We've got a first here, thisfirst female officer we've had

(00:56):
on, we're honored to have her onand another first, the first
crime-fighting duo.
We've had crime-fighting couple, I guess.
You want to call it, I don'tknow which one's Batman and
which one's Robin.

Speaker 5 (01:08):
It's still over there .

Speaker 2 (01:11):
But we've got Amanda and Stephen Madden with us and
T-Dot's back.
Of course we can't get rid ofhim yet.
We're trying, we're gettingcloser.
It's like gum on your shoe youcan't scrape him off.
This partnership has just wentdownhill.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
It's been possibly taken over, that's all right.
It's been a long day, we'regood, so I'm excited to hear
some.
It is unique because there'snot a lot of female officers,
I'm honest.
We had a couple, I think three,four at london pd and then, you

(01:47):
know, working at danville.
There's a little more there's acouple yeah and uh, but really
the perspective of it issometimes like, oh my gosh,
because I know as a, as a, as aguy, you want to jump in and you
know, take over.
You know, that was thatstereotype you just out and not.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
It's a jerk move, but I know she can handle it.

Speaker 6 (02:12):
We all get put back in her place, like I got this.

Speaker 4 (02:16):
I'm sure it starts when it starts like that, but
it's fine.

Speaker 6 (02:20):
Yeah, it is a different viewpoint, I guess.
But growing up I just alwayswanted to be a police officer
and I was told more times than Icould count that I wasn't going
to be allowed to be a policeofficer.
I got told even the year beforeI started the academy that this
was from a work colleague, thatI was too short and didn't meet
the height requirement.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
They were very serious.

Speaker 6 (02:47):
And I'm like that's not, they try to drag out books
and I'm like that's that's notaccurate.

Speaker 4 (02:50):
What year did you go through the Academy?

Speaker 6 (02:52):
2015.
Okay, yeah, I mean it was.
It was a.
I was only female in the classuntil what week?

Speaker 5 (02:59):
was it about halfway through week 11?

Speaker 6 (03:02):
yeah, so we actually were in the same Academy class
so we married after the academy,obviously, but uh, yeah, we,
our families, know each other,so, um, but yeah, so week 11 or
something, week 11, week 12,something like that we had
another female that got cycledin.
She had a shoulder injury, sothat was.
That was different, but onlyfemale in the entire academy
class.
Obviously was interesting also,but I pretty much got treated

(03:26):
like one of the guys.
I got pretty lucky with our,our class did they put you in
leadership roles?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
yes, I was gonna say I have noticed just about every
academy class the females.
They will put them inleadership roles and I don't
know if it's to toughen them up,or usually it's the adjutant um
.

Speaker 6 (03:40):
If they have military experience, I guess they'll be.
What were you?
Squad leader.
Squad leader, yeah, squadleader yeah.
But yeah, I think it is to helpjust get them incorporated so
they don't feel left out, orforgotten about?

Speaker 2 (03:57):
I guess I don't know, we had some females in my
academy class too, and there wasonly one that made it, but she
was the class leader.
She made it through with us.
The one of them, I remember wewere all lined up in the hallway
and she had you know, they weredoing uniform inspection and
everything and she had herorange gun and her duty belt
upside down it's all hanging out.

Speaker 6 (04:18):
I was like yeah, she's not gonna make it she she
dropped out during firearms qualso, and not because she was a
chick, just because she didn'thave it.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
If it had been a guy, she wouldn't have made it yeah,
so.

Speaker 6 (04:32):
Right.
We have seen our fair share ofofficers who could possibly
carry their gun upside down atany point in time.

Speaker 4 (04:42):
That just didn't make it thank God, ain't that the
truth?
So y'all were in the same classand and did y'all police the
same agency then?

Speaker 6 (04:52):
not at first.
No, I actually was with Brea PDat first and he was with
Richmond PD, the big city, yepyeah, the whole 45,000, that one
, well, it's bigger than herethat's right.

Speaker 4 (05:04):
You know Richmond and you know with Eastern out there
I go up there a lot.
I've got a, I've got a daughterin school there and up there
quite a bit and I feel prettysafe up there.
You know, I don't seems likeyou see somebody and I think one

(05:25):
of the deals with that is thereis a police officer everywhere
because of the academy therebeing their cruisers going to
eat some here and there.
So it just looks like there'sthousands of officers out there.
But it's really just becausethe police academy is stationed
there.
So that really helps.

Speaker 5 (05:41):
And it also helps too , the fact that you know not
only do you have Richmond CityPolice Department, you've also
got Madison County Sheriff'sOffice.
Is there right?

Speaker 4 (05:49):
KSP post seven is there, that's right in the
middle of campus.

Speaker 5 (05:51):
Eastern Kentucky University police is right.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
So you've got a plethora of agencies, yeah, and
then I everybody come in therefor the Academy classes or
in-service classes or whatever.

Speaker 6 (06:03):
So yes, and law enforcement officers know like.
Whenever you're in Richmond youlook at what agency they're
from and you know you'll see alldifferent counties and
everything else.
But the average citizentypically just sees police car.

Speaker 4 (06:17):
Yeah, they don't.
Yeah, they don't pay attention.
But yeah, I don't know how manywrecks I've driven by, that's
not me.
I don't know how many wrecksI've driven by, that's not me.
It's the first time, you know,this year I had in-service in
Richmond, but it was not oncampus there, it was over at the

(06:40):
Ignite Academy.
So I was like, oh my gosh, soI'm here, you get to enjoy the
food like Jackson's or somethinglike that.
Yet I'm not.
I'm not over there, where it'sall very strict and weird.

Speaker 6 (06:53):
So it was, it was kind of nice over there, so yeah
, We'd love to help his Nanacooks at Jackson's All the law
enforcement officers but hisNana's a cook up there, so
that's fair to say she's got allthe secret recipes and brings
them home with her.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
You've had that right .
Jackson's?
Yeah, you've had.
Have you eaten there?

Speaker 4 (07:10):
That's some of the best country food that you'll
ever eat.

Speaker 5 (07:13):
My grandmother started out doing that at Opal's
Restaurant.
I mean, I was a little bittyfella.

Speaker 4 (07:19):
Opal's down in Jackson.

Speaker 5 (07:19):
County it started out .
At one point it wasn't Jackson,but Opal's was in the mall, the
old Richmond mall I rememberthat I mean she's been a cook
since then and she's still doingit today.

Speaker 4 (07:32):
I want to say they're pork chops.
They're as big as the plate andthey're incredible.
You have to get bone in, though, and then the meatloaf there.

Speaker 6 (07:43):
I'm not deciding advertising there or anything
but hey.
Jackson's in.
Richmond.
Hey, we're all in.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Club whatever you want to, it's fine.

Speaker 6 (07:51):
I still love it.
It's good though.

Speaker 4 (07:53):
It really is good there used to be a place.
I'm telling my age now back inthe 70s and early 80s.
When you were just born.
You remember that it was MaKelly's.
You remember that?
What was it?
It was Ma Kelly's, that's thename of the restaurant, uh-huh,
and it was a house you actuallywent in.
It's like you walk intosomebody's house, you go into
the kitchen and they cook andyou serve it yourself.

(08:15):
And it was kind of uniquereally.
Hmm, and they had everybody.
I mean all the students thereon campus they visit there.
Quite often they had a sign ora name.
The walls were just covered insignatures.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
Oh, that's cool it was.
That's where you find some ofthe best food, though, is the
little hole-in-the-wall places.

Speaker 4 (08:38):
And you know, Jackson's is that way because
all these professors and all theinstructors over at the academy
that's where they go eat.
Oh yeah, Absolutely.
I guess we need to keep it asecret.
All the three people listeningright now.
But, it is amazing food.

Speaker 6 (08:55):
They're frontiters though.

Speaker 4 (08:56):
Oh man.
There's a plug for.

Speaker 2 (09:00):
Jackson.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Maybe send your money our way.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
Or just send us a free coupon, yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yeah, yeah, it's fun.
So you were at Richmond, youwere just patrol union.
What all did you end up doing?

Speaker 5 (09:17):
So I started out there in 2015 and I was just
doing patrol, started, I guess Ishould say this day one, and
this is something I've alwayshad an idea that I wanted to do.
I always wanted to go in tosomething that you know would
just make me better, andwhenever I the first day that I

(09:38):
went to Richmond, you know, oneof the first questions I asked
was do you all have a SWAT teamof any type?
And they were like, yeah, wehave an ERU team, emergency
response team and I was like,well, what do I have to do to be
on that?
They told me pretty much what Ihad to do is I had to be there
for a minimum of three years andI had to have good performance.
I would have to show goodfirearm skills, good tactics and

(10:00):
a good you know level headunder pressure.
So I was dead set that that'swhat I wanted to do.
That was my goal.
Going in Long story short man,like I went in there and started
out just doing regular patroland had some pretty good calls,
and I guess you know sometimesand I'll touch base on this

(10:23):
several times tonight but Godhas a weird way of working in
your life and I'm a hugebeliever in that, and it's kind
of funny of some of the timesand some of the trainings and
stuff that I went to and some ofthe calls that I was on that
there was either an ERU memberor someone else that had to do

(10:44):
with the team or you know ahigher up that just happened to
be there to see me work and sawthat you know I had a good level
head and that you know I showeda little bit better calmness
under pressure, I guess,whenever it really mattered and
I was able to keep a level headabout myself and that stuff

(11:05):
really, you know, stayed aroundreally mattered and I was able
to keep a level head aboutmyself and that stuff really,
you know, stayed around witheverybody.
And they constantly told me, youknow well, if it wasn't for
that three-year thing, we wouldtake you right now, you know.
And finally we got a new chiefin.
We went from Larry Brock, whichBrock was a great chief.
He was a little firm but he wasalways consistent, you know you

(11:26):
knew what you had.
You know, and that's something.
I appreciate man Like I don'tcare if it's good, bad or ugly,
but be the same with everybodyevery single time.
You know, don't have four orfive in your pocket, that's your
favorites, that you know theycan get away with murder, so to
speak.
But then you know, somebodyelse has, you know know, a small
stain in the floorboard oftheir car from the last person

(11:47):
they arrested and they getwritten up for it.
I can't stand stuff like this.
So we went from brock, who was agreat chief, and we went to, uh
, ebert, and ebert was a prettygood chief too, um, a little
more of the politician side thanwhat brock was, yeah.
But you know it's it's just hisway of doing things.
And I just kind of asked himstraight up.
I was like you know, if I canoutperform a 10-year officer in

(12:15):
physical fitness, shooting,thinking ability, tactics, if I
can outperform a 10-year guy andme only having a year and a
half on, then does that not saysomething good for me, or is
that just bad on him?
You know, why would you takehim over me just because he's
been here for three years, whenhe doesn't meet the standard

(12:36):
like I do?
you know, so that's justsomething I ask him.
He's like well, maybe it'ssomething we need to roll around
in our head.
So I kept kind of pushing, keptpushing and finally they just
decided you know what, we'regoing to rewrite the policy, you
only have to be off ofprobation and you have to be
approved by every single teammember.
So, long story short, rightabout my two year mark, they

(13:01):
lifted that three year lock onthere mark.
They lifted that three-yearlock on there and at the time,
you know, I was one of theyoungest people, time wise, on
the police department thatactually tried out and got
accepted first time around ontothe eru team.
And, like I said, you know thatwas a dream for me because I've
wanted to do that ever since Iwas a kid did they have one of
the big swAT and like PT testsand all that that you had to go

(13:24):
through?
Yeah, man, so that test itsucked, just to say the least,
that test.
You had to do a mile and a halfrun in full gear and it wasn't
you know your three-poundceramic plates, it was you know
nine-pound steels, yeah, and itwas a full kit and basically
they put the vest on you.
Usually they put the vest onyou, um, usually they hold the

(13:48):
tryouts when it's pretty hotoutside.
It's not a cool day.
You start off and you run a mileand a half and once you do that
mile and a half, you have nodowntime between any of this
whatsoever.
You immediately throw on anarmored helmet, which which adds
more weight, and then you graba door breaching ram and you

(14:09):
have to sprint 100 yards withthat ram.
As soon as you drop the ram,you have to run over into the
grass and you have to low crawlon your elbows and knees for 30
yards.
Again, this whole time you'rewearing full kit.
As soon as you jump up, theyhave whoever at the time it is
being the heaviest team member,which for me it was, uh, I

(14:31):
believe rob, hiss, uh and rob.
It was either rob or chip gray,um, both of which are within
about 10 pounds of each other,but rob and chip.
Both are about six, five and in.
And in full kit.
I mean they're, you know,pressing 300 pounds or more.
Yeah, they just go completelylimp, just like you know a dead
man thing.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
So you're dead weight dragging them yeah.

Speaker 5 (14:53):
So you have to dead weight drag this guy for 30
yards.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
Gosh.

Speaker 4 (14:57):
As soon as you drop him.
That's worse than those dummiesdown there.

Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:02):
Or 150 or whatever.

Speaker 5 (15:07):
So you dead man dragged this guy for 30 yards.
And as soon as you're done withthat, um, you have to do 10
burpees.
And then, after you do the 10burpees, you have to do 10
push-ups.
And then, after the 10 push-ups, you have to run over to a bar
that was anchored to the side ofa concrete wall and you have to
do 10 pull-ups.
Um, after you're done with that, they hand you the ram again
and you have to climb fourflights of steps to the top of

(15:28):
the tower and then traverse yourway back down those four
flights of steps and sprint tothe finish line, which was
roughly about 25 yards from thedoor, and then drop the ram.
When the ram hits the ground,your time stops.

Speaker 6 (15:41):
I could not do that.

Speaker 2 (15:43):
No, I'm pretty sure I would have went in the cardiac
arrest way back at the beginningsomewhere.

Speaker 6 (15:48):
So funny story.
This put me in thought of thatPolice Academy.
Everybody has to jump over thewall, shut up.
I jumped over the wall On theropes course.
What is it?
I don't know, it's just thewall, a six foot wall you just
have to run and it over.

Speaker 5 (16:04):
This isn't even the rope score.
This is just the six-foot wallthat you have to jump over.

Speaker 6 (16:08):
You just have to prove you can jump over a
six-foot wall.
This build.
I don't remember that yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:12):
I didn't have to do that.
You want to know what Reallyyeah.

Speaker 6 (16:15):
I didn't have to do that.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Well, let me just.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
I'm 5'2, so I had to do the vertical jump in the in
the class, but they took noy'all they took it out that was
in my class like I started.
I had to do it in in theinitial pops and then back to
him and took it out well, I'mnot upset now well a lot of

(16:43):
people did what happened on yourwall.

Speaker 6 (16:45):
I tried to jump over the wall and all that you could
see was my well, I tried to goby the wall like three or four
times and didn't make it.
I basically just ran into theside of it.
It wasn't that bad, I wastrying, but it was but now I'll
be honest, the entire academyclass, because I was fairly fit,
like I I wasn't the last one ateverything.
I wasn't the one I was onsidelines throwing up.

(17:06):
I got everything done, justlike they did.
They were all cheering me on,thank God, because they were
like I know, you can do it,you're just short, that's all.
Come on, I finally learned tohook my foot and then I dragged
myself up over the top and justfall over.
They're like yeah, it was awhole wind for the whole class.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Basically.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
I just ran inside the wall.
Nevertheless, back in the?
U, I could not If I could haveran through that wall, I would
have been a star I would havegotten up and done it easy.

Speaker 6 (17:36):
I could not do EREU.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
They got rid of that that year then because I went
through in 16.
I don't remember the ropescourse honestly, we did the
ropes course.

Speaker 6 (17:46):
I'm assuming they're talking about the leadership
ropes course same one they'retalking about the one that's
like 40 foot in the air.

Speaker 5 (17:53):
I don't remember so anyway, doug, you were asking,
you know what was the times forthat.
They want you pretty much tocome in somewhere around 18
minutes or less, anytime, I meananything.
The next day.
No.
So the bad thing is, that wasjust the PT test, yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
That day is a long day, so you're pretty good at
running too.

Speaker 5 (18:19):
Yeah, so all of this has to transpire usually within
about a four to five-hour period, because you have numerous
people doing it and the onlydowntime that you have is while
the other people are doing thetest, which is not a lot of time
because you know they havedifferent people.
That's timing you and sometimesa lot of you are running at the
same time.

(18:40):
It's just that the personbehind you started, you know,
four or five minutes after youdid, to stay behind you.
So all of this transpireswithin about a four or five hour
period.
I mean it's a long day, butafter you leave there, they look
at your times, they notateeverything, how you did, what
was your mentality, because youknow even during the test they

(19:03):
will ask you questions.
You know, like when is it safeto perform a tactical reload?
You know what are the threethings that you need before
you're going to reload yourweapon or do anything like that.
You know they're looking for.
You know time, distance, coveryou know, things of that nature.
So they're asking you all thesequestions that have to do with
policing and tactics.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
To see if your physical fatigue is going to
cause mental fog.

Speaker 5 (19:27):
Yeah, exactly so then , after you're done with the pt
test, uh, basically you jumpstraight in your cruiser.
There's no lunch time, there'sno break time.
You've got water and maybe asnack that you brought granola
bar for me.
That's what I had brought.
We drove from there straight tothe range and the range was
only about 15 minutes awayroughly y'all shoot down the

(19:48):
river too, or is that somewhereelse, uh?
that's somewhere else.
Um, we had our own range that'sdedicated for richmond.
Um, once you get to the range,again, your full kit, except now
you have all your weapons andstuff with you, all your ammo.
You completely get kitted upfor this firearms qualification

(20:10):
and the way that our range isset up.
It's not just your typical flatrange.
We have what we refer to as theeagle's nest up on a hillside
and it's not super far away.
It's 200 yards, but 200 yardsfor the average person with
nothing but a 16-inch you knowrifle is a fair distance, that's
a long shot.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, that's a pretty good shot.

Speaker 5 (20:28):
Especially when you're running iron sights.
They don't give you a red dotor anything to run that day
You're running irons.
So they tell you to start atthe range house.
The eagle's nest is about 100yards and it's uphill.
I mean it sucks, and it's hardterrain, it's not, you know,
there's no dedicated way to getthere, it's just.
You know, hey, climb thishillside.
So you sprint in full gear upto the eagle's nest, lay down

(20:54):
prone.
It's 200 yards and they havemultiple targets set up all the
way down to the zero-yard lineand you have to engage however
many rounds they tell you to puton each target.
So you engage at the 200,sprint down to this spot that
they've got marked for the 150,all rough terrain.
Again, it doesn't get to flatterrain until you get to the
100-yard mark.

(21:14):
So sprint down to the 150,numerous rounds on a few targets
.
Again Afterwards you have torun up to the 100.
They give you a couple targets,then you start moving between
different barricades andobstacles amongst the range.
So it's not you know, now I'mgoing to travel from the 100
yard line straight to the youknow 10 or 5 or wherever they

(21:35):
stop me init's well, I have to bounce back
and forth across this 50 yardwide range, right over this 100
yard span, to figure out youknow where I'm going, how to
move.
I have to communicate.
They're talking to you andyelling at you and throwing
stuff at you the whole time.
Um, they're just trying to seehow you handle it.
You know how you handle thepressure, if they can get you

(21:56):
too amped up or not.
But uh, you go down throughthere.
You're doing mad changes andtransitions and reloads and all
this other stuff and they'regrading you on everything that
you know how to do.
Are you tack reloading behindcover?
Are you basically firing untilthat rifle runs completely dry?
Are you using time, distanceand cover?

(22:17):
To your advantage?
Are you overexposing yourselfaround these barricades?
What are you doing the wholetime they're asking you
questions, packing you on thehelmet with a fully loaded
magazine.
And at one point in time Iactually it's a selection.

Speaker 4 (22:34):
You're in selection.
It don't matter how good youare.
Those questions are seeing it'slike a SF or something
selection course, more than justa qualified Nothing course.
Yeah, just to qualify.

Speaker 5 (22:45):
Nothing to that extreme.
I wouldn't even really Shortendown, yeah, I wouldn't even
compare it to like a SFselection course, because you
know, through camp and otherthings, and just you know
history, I have met a lot of theguys that have been, you know,
former Green Beret SEALs.
You know a couple of guys thathave been Delta Mar Seals.
You know a couple of guys thathave been Delta Marta Sock.

(23:05):
You know this, that and theother, and I mean man, those
guys are a whole different breed.
Like you know, they make ourtest look like it wasn't nothing
but a play date.
These three-week, four-weekrucks and stuff.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
It's on the same principle.
Those questions they're askingyou under stress.
They're tapping you on theforehead and asking you
questions to see if, yeah, youmay pass the physical, you may
shoot the best.
But those questions and seeinghow you handle it, see if you're
going to be a good fit for thatteam, is what else they're
looking at too.
And this is all just to get youto go to SWAT school too.

Speaker 5 (23:44):
Yeah, Right, I mean, which school did you go to?
So I went to Norris Tactical.

Speaker 4 (23:51):
That's where I was.
Is that Louisville or?

Speaker 5 (23:52):
close to Louisville.
Yeah, so now they actually havemultiple locations.
Okay, norris has actuallybecome one of the biggest
training agencies in the UnitedStates right now.
I'll touch on them here lateron.
If we come back around to that,it's a great place to go to
Love those guys.
But so at one point during thisfirearms we never know what

(24:14):
they're going to do to us andthey'll surprise you.
I got up and at one point I wasat about the 20 yard line and I
had run out of rifle ammo, andit's set up that way.
I was supposed to run out whenI did and I drew my pistol.
So I transitioned the pistoland I start engaging the rest of
the targets.
While I'm engaging hostagetargets, a dude just reaches up

(24:37):
and starts leaning on myshoulder, talking in my ear,
trying to throw me off balance.
Well, simultaneously, anotherguy that was actually ended up
being on the team too.
His name's Joe Lane, one of thefunniest and greatest people
you'll ever meet in your entirelife.
But Joe actually empties a magin a full auto system right over
my shoulder and just covers mewith the brass Hot brass.

(25:00):
So then, after I get, done withthat spot.
I shoot over the range just acouple of feet and start
engaging this next target and Isee this little black thing come
over my shoulder and I lookedand I was like crap, it was a
flashbang.
So I mean, they're doing all ofthis throughout this entire
time.
You're being berated, you'rebeing hit with flashbangs,
you're being tapped on thehelmet with magazines, you're

(25:21):
being asked questions, pushedaround and smacked on you know,
gunfire all around you doingdifferent things, and they're
just trying to see.
Like through all of this, canyou keep your cool?
So after you do that, theygrade all of your targets and
then, when you're done, you godirectly into a interview with

(25:42):
the team and it's the currentteam and you're basically
sitting there by yourself infront of all these guys and none
of them are there to really be.
You know bad to you.
Like you know, we patroltogether, so they're good dudes,
but at the same time, likethey're not just going to accept
me if I'm lacking in a hugearea.

(26:05):
So basically, afterwards yousit down and they ask you this
20-minute questionnaire andthey'll post stuff at you that's
not normally on their papers.
How do you feel about the factthat you may not come home.
Are your wife and kids aware ofthat?
How do they feel about it?
Have you spoke with them aboutit?
And you have to do thisinterview.

(26:27):
And again, all of this is justboom, boom, boom.
One right after the other.
It's not a.
You know, I have X amount ofhours between this event and
this event to prepare.
It's well, you know, let's hitall of it at one time, just as
fast as we can hit it.

Speaker 6 (26:41):
And they all had to accept you Like If one member of
the team said, no, that waspretty important.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
That was the place it had to be unanimous.

Speaker 6 (26:48):
Because if it wasn't, then you've got one guy who
might not have your back.
I guess that's tough.
Makes sense.

Speaker 4 (26:54):
That is tough.
That means you've had to treateverybody good and been showing
off for these guys that you canhandle yourself way before you
knew you even wanted to go tothat school.
They were judging you becauseobviously that would.
They could come back and belike you know, back when he
first started I saw him here orI or he really made me mad or

(27:17):
something on this or something,you never know how guys think,
and I know they're forgiving Iknow you were a bunch of type
a's anyway.
Yeah, absolutely, we're going tobutt heads.

Speaker 5 (27:26):
but you know, and again, man, like you know,
sometimes it's just kind offunny how God works, because,
you know, it was like a monthbefore that they sent me to this
training course with the FBI.
And do you remember when theydemoed the tower that was on EKU
?
Yes, and they rebuilteverything.
So they were in the middle ofdemoing that tower and they
basically told us, like you know, look, if you all want to use

(27:48):
this place as a training site,you're talking about the top,
yeah, so they was like you know,you can go in there and bust
through doors and all kinds ofcrap, because we're demolishing
the whole tower anyway and thenredoing all of it.
So we were like, okay, cool.
So so the FBI says that they'rerunning this training course
and it's basically an activeshooter scenario course.
I had never been to anythinglike that before.

(28:08):
It was probably one of thecoolest classes I ever went to.
But these guys go all out, theygo in there and there was
debris everywhere.
They had drug furniture outinto the hallways.
They had torn down stuff,fixtures and everything out of
the ceilings to make it hard totraverse through there.
They had killed some of thelights so that the hallways were
dark.
I mean, they went all out.

(28:29):
That's awesome.
Well, one of the things thatthey had done was they set up a
bunch of traps and they hadtripwire setups and pressure
plates under some of thisfurniture.
Wow, so we were going down thishallway and one of the guys
that was on the team he looks atme he was like I'm just letting
you know like they've asked meto grade how you act today and I
was like great, you know, Ididn't have enough pressure that

(28:51):
I'm supposed to get good gradestoday now you know my, my dream
of being on the team is ridingon this.
So we're going down this hallwayand I looked and I seen this
little black device underneathof a piece of furniture.
And I looked and I said bombmove.
And we took off into separatedoorways and gained cover.
Well, that instructor comes outof nowhere and he was like you

(29:14):
tell me right now where you seea bomb.
I was like it's under thecorner of that piece of
furniture right there.
He's like how did you see that?
I was like to be perfectlyhonest with you.
Honest with you, like I ain'tgonna sit here and lie or act
like I'm a super cop.
It's about pure luck.
I hit it with my light and Iwas like I don't look right.
So I yelled out bomb move.
And we took off.
He was like good job.

(29:35):
So, um, that was one of thehighlights of that event.
Uh, to end the day, same dudethat's supposed to be grading me
looks at me and he goes.
Well, I want you to lead thislast event.
We have no clue what the fbi isabout to put us through.
So they're like well, we'regonna see what we can throw
y'all for a loop.

(29:55):
So they put us in this darkhallway.
Um and I don't want to make itseem like you know again that I
was super coppering, because Iwasn't by far.
You know there was somescenarios that we did that day
that we were doing simunition,which for those of you that
don't know what simunition is,basically little plastic rounds,
but these guns sound, operateand fire a projectile.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
It's a soap projectile, right yeah.

Speaker 5 (30:22):
But it actually is.
It's expelled by actual blackpowder.
So these rounds have blackpowder in them.
So the smell, the operation ofthe gun, the action, everything
works exactly like a realfirearm.
And you know, I got hit thatday by a couple of those
projectiles, just like everybodyelse in the class did.
You know, there's sometimesthat you just can't help it, you

(30:43):
just run into an unlucky angle.
I mean, it is what it is.
And that last scenario it turnsout that we got to this doorway
and this dude had simulated thathe had killed his boss and had
rigged people up in the doorwayand wired them together on a
bomb.
Oh, so we get to this doorwayand these people are standing in

(31:04):
the doorway and won't let methrough the door.
But I can hear the shooterbehind them inside the room.
So I was like you know, can youall move?
And they just shake their headsno, they won't even communicate
with you, they're ordered notto.
And uh, I was like okay, youknow, are you wired to a device?
And they just shook their heads, yes, and all of a sudden the

(31:24):
shooter's like if it, I'm donetrying to talk with you, I'm
gonna start killing people infive, four, three, two, and I
didn't know what else to do.
So I was like you know I'm nottrained for this, I haven't went
to bomb school or anything.
But if I don't do somethingthen you know this scenario set
up that we all die.
So you gotta do something.
So I just dumped my gun inbetween both of them's head,
come down on target and put fiverounds in this dude's chest.

(31:49):
He falls over my teammate thatwas grading me that day, that
was on the ru team, follows methrough the doorway, smokes the
dude in the opposite corner and,luckily enough, you know I got
good grades on that scenario.
And you know, simulated savingthe day and being the hero, you
know cop.
But he went back and he toldthe team.

(32:10):
You know like, hey, this guy'sgot a good head on his shoulders
.
And you know again, god justset me up in the right place at
the right time.
You know I just I got luckyenough that I got selected for
things.
I wasn't even supposed to go tothat class.
Somebody else dropped out lastminute and they come to me and
they were like, hey, you want togo to this.
I was like, sure, why not?
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
And I thought the FLETC active shooter school was
cool.

Speaker 4 (32:34):
It's weak yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
It is now compared to that.

Speaker 4 (32:40):
I drove all the way to Wattsburg for my active
shooter stuff, the first one weall had to go, me and Joe, and
yeah, I was running through thebasement.
It was a two-story.
The scenario was upstairs, I'mthe last guy in, you know, I've
got the rear guard.
I was like I want to go.
I want to be last this timeBecause we was tired.

(33:01):
We'd run out on how manyscenarios?
And sure enough, to speedthings up, the guy comes around
to let us know we're up top,just fires a round down to get
everybody's attention.
That stinking Sim round hit meright in the ankle.

Speaker 5 (33:17):
He wasn't even trying to, so that accidentally out of
it.

Speaker 4 (33:20):
I was like I'm out.
No no no, you weren't supposedto get something out of it.
I was like I'm out.
No, no, no, you weren'tsupposed to get something out of
it.
I was like I'm out.
It was just how it goessometimes.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Accidents.
I felt so bad for Bert when wedone rapid deployment because
they picked him to be the op foror whatever.
He was the bad guy hostagetaker.
You dump in, take your corners,shoot.
So he was getting shot.
You know they give you thatfront face mask but you know
we're in a room like this.
He's in the middle of thehostage, so he's getting back of

(33:53):
the head with salmon rounds allday long.
Baseball.

Speaker 6 (33:58):
I took the stops course and got hit in the leg
right above my kneecap.
And I wore a a look like abullseye.
How long it was bruised it wasliterally weeks, it was over a
month and you.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
You were talking about taking just a bad angle or
get catching a bad angle.
Sometimes you can't stop scores.
When we went through it, thatopened my eyes quite a bit
because there was one where hewas ordered.
You know, the op was ordered totake a shot as soon as my door
popped.
Well, the guy that was shooting, I mean he could shoot the
balls off of a net at 40 yards.

(34:32):
So I mean, as soon as my doorpopped and I leaned out, he hit
me right in the goggles.
I mean I was like well, I'mdone.
This traffic stops.
That was your day.
Yeah, I was like wait, I haven'teven made it out of the car yet
.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
Our buddy Danny, who was on the show earlier.
He and I went to like so manyacademy classes together.
We were roommates in theacademy and, you know, retired
at the same time, all that stuff.
I think it was our third orfourth in-service we had.
We were doing stops orsomething and high-risk
something, and I was the driverof the Op 4.

(35:09):
I'm left-handed so my gun wasdown here.
I reached out like that.
I didn't have the gloves on,you will believe, with those.

Speaker 6 (35:21):
I was silly enough to just wear regular blue jeans
that day.
They were like you should wearjogging pants and something a
little thicker.
Wear regular blue jeans thatday, and they were like you
should wear jogging pants andsomething a little thicker.
I found out that day.

Speaker 5 (35:29):
Yeah, you've learned.
I regretted that decision, youknow.
I mean we've dug them out ofpeople's skin in training before
when we were training up thereat the depot, at the CQT houses.
I mean, you know, if you catchone of those, close range.

Speaker 6 (35:42):
You're sitting over the knife for the next five
minutes, digging into yourteammates, which is if we didn't
get enough of the simunitionsand stuff.
We own a tactical business tooand do tactical training and he
does simunitions like once amonth or something like that he
got one up the nose hole andcame up it was the cut of your
mouth.

Speaker 5 (36:01):
So they pulled the trigger on me as my mask
accidentally fell off, and thiswas a female officer that works
for Lexington.
She was actually involved inthis recent officer-involved
shooting with Guy House.
But she was training with meand when I started to go down, I
mean she'd come through thedoor, did everything.
She was supposed to put threeor four rounds in my chest.

(36:22):
I started to fall.
Well, mid-fall my mask poppedoff, but she had already broke
the trigger.
Well, that round went up mynose and all of a sudden my nose
just went to pouring blood.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
I mean you know that thing just like ripped through
my nose.

Speaker 5 (36:37):
Well, I stood up, we cleaned up the blood, broke down
the scenario with them.
I was like, man, my nose islike super clogged up right now.
And I was like, well, when Idid, I felt it hit in the back
of my sinuses and I spit it outon the floor.
She was like are you kidding me?
I was like no, I'm dead serious.
Like that thing was in mysinuses.

Speaker 6 (36:59):
It doesn't help that one of the other I'm going to
joke, common Neanderthalstudents walks over and picks it
up and she's like bleh.

Speaker 4 (37:06):
That's like the Carlos Havcock shooting through
the scope.
I'm like if you shoot throughthe nose hole.

Speaker 6 (37:19):
The first thing she said when I walked through the
door she was like I shot him upthe nose.
I was like what.

Speaker 5 (37:26):
She was freaking out, man, because when I play these
scenarios, you know and I'm thebad guy, I believe that you know
, as a trainer if you're just anonchalant individual when
you're playing, you know thatdemon that they're supposed to
be facing that day, you're notdoing your students any good.
No, so when I'm playing it uplike I'm playing it up, I'll

(37:46):
yell at them, scream at them,ball up my fist, I'll push them
Like I go at them hard.
And on the other end of thespectrum, though, is when they
shoot me like I play it out,that I'm actually shot Like I
will not respond to them.
I will not help them move me ifthey have to drag me out of the
room, I will not respond tothem.
I will not help them move me ifthey have to drag me out of the

(38:08):
room.

Speaker 6 (38:09):
They get nothing.
If I'm dead, I'm dead.
That's awesome, and if you'renot, then you'll fight back with
them still until you're dead.

Speaker 5 (38:11):
Yeah, I'll fight with them until they get me under
control.
And you know she was yelling atme.
She was like he's actuallybleeding and I was like nothing.

(38:33):
I wouldn't give her anything.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
And she was like the scenario was over.
And one of the other guys thatI've been training for over a
year he was like did you dig?

Speaker 2 (38:41):
your corner she was like actually hurting.
I was sitting there and I waslike I'm not giving you nothing,
he said.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
I laid there and was like nope by the time I got up,
there's this eight or nine inchpuddle of mud on the floor and
she thought she killed me.

Speaker 5 (38:56):
I was like look at it happen.
It was a simple accident.
You didn't mean to.
That's part of training, Keeptraining.

Speaker 6 (39:05):
I'm serious, you got to train.
I feel like we didn't put theresources in down here in our
training, that's with a lot ofdepartments, and I will say with
my first department I'll goahead and say I don't care who I
make mad.
I got made fun of at certaintimes because I took training
too seriously or I wouldactually go in and implement

(39:30):
tactics and some of the officerswere like, okay, but the house
is abandoned, we're justchecking it before they bulldoze
it down.
And I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
But what if?
So?

Speaker 6 (39:39):
let's just assume, and I got made fun of with that.
Well, when I transferred andwent to Richmond, the first call
I went to it was a guy that haddied basically on his porch
steps, and I went in and startedto because at the first
apartment I was by myself mostof the time.
I went in and started searchingthe apartment and I had another

(40:00):
officer who ended up being onERU with him later he came
through right behind me andstarted assisting with searching
the apartment and I was likewhat is this?
Like what do you?
And he'd say I go right, you goleft.
And he he'd yell clear and I'mlike there's communication, like
it is different at differentdepartments.
That same exact officer.
Funnily enough I'm not his name,I didn't know his colorblind.

(40:28):
We were on the range togetherand they put all the officers
under high stress, like they goabove and beyond at Richmond.
I will say that high stress,long gun training.
That day we pulled up in ourcruisers and had to jump out and
had to just run down that washow many?
What is it?
100 yards, something like thatusually and had to just go
through the course and you know.
Be behind a wall, shoot througha window, get down, yell,
communicate with each other, youknow.
Move, moving, move, you knowwhatever.

(40:49):
And he looks over at me andwe're going down the course
together and he starts yellingwhich targets?
And I'm like the red targets.
He's like, okay, which targets?
The red targets.
Which targets?
I'm like the effing red target,stupid.
He goes.
I'm colorblind, stupid.
I was like, oh, left, lefttargets, left targets.

(41:10):
I felt so bad I had no idea.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Who's supposed to do that?
There's a guy that I work withup there now that's colorblind,
so you won't hear him.
If there's a vehicle that he'strying to call out a bolo or
something, for it'll never be acolor.
It's always a light coloredvehicle or a dark colored
vehicle.
It's either light gray or it'sbecause I can't tell.
He's like the only way I cantell what if it's a red or green

(41:39):
light, is the position on the?

Speaker 4 (41:41):
light.
I used to think it was silly.
There on the, I used to thinkit was silly.
There wasn't no such thing ascolorblindness, but I think it
is.

Speaker 6 (41:48):
I found out that day.

Speaker 5 (41:49):
It was the truth and not the hard way that's some
good information to have so, youknow, touching base on what
she's saying, though, with someof these guys, you know just
thinking that doing stuff theright way, even though there's
indicators that say that nothingmight, you know, may or may not
be there.
You know that stuff, thatnothing may or may not be there,
you know that stuff, again, godworks in mysterious ways.

(42:10):
You know, when we were goingthrough the academy, we were
what probably five, six weeks in, daniel got shot.

Speaker 6 (42:20):
We were walking by the officer memorial when we got
the phone call actually.
Oddly enough I'll never forgetthat that he had just gotten
shot.

Speaker 4 (42:30):
We got a phone call.
I know where I was, we were,you know he and I were.
I mean, it was like I was atschool and I was like, what time
is this?
Yeah, it was in the fall, right.

Speaker 6 (42:46):
Yes, november.

Speaker 4 (42:47):
Yeah, november, and I remember it freaked me
completely out.
I was like numb, almost, youknow like what.

Speaker 6 (42:55):
Yeah, so close to home.

Speaker 5 (42:56):
Yeah, and there's nothing, man that really
prepares you for that, or aphone call like that, especially
that early in your career.
Because you know, you alwaysthink when you want to go into
law enforcement or you knowmilitary or anything like that,
you always think you know, hey,there's a possibility that I
might not go home or one of myguys might not go home.

(43:17):
I had thought of that numeroustimes before, you know, I had
done security for a few years.
I had worked at the correctionsfacilities for a few years.
Um, I had worked at thecorrections facilities for a few
years.
You know, it wasn't like I wasgreen, like I had experience
under my belt and it's somethingthat you always talk about and
think about.
But nothing can prepare you forthat actual event.

(43:39):
And I can remember, like, justhow numb I felt and I'm not
gonna sit here and act like youknow, I was best friends with
daniel.
I wasn't not even close, um, Ihad met him just a couple times,
here and there, in passing.
Whenever, you know, I was goingthrough the process to go into
the academy.
Nice guy, uh, good, goodofficer, um, you know, good

(44:02):
husband, good father, and Iremember Jan called me that
morning and she gave me the newsand I was like, well, I mean,
is he okay?
And she was like we don't know.
And I was like I mean what doyou mean?
You don't know?
And she was like, well, he's inpretty bad shape.
And the only thing she couldreally say was she was like just
pray for him.
And I was like, okay, I mean,it's like just pray for him.

(44:24):
And I was like, okay, I meanit's like that's all I got, that
was it.
And then it's just like it iswith the rest of policing.
You know, you go through thesetraumatic events or you get this
bad news and then it's oh well,on to the next thing.
Like there's no downtime.
You ain't got time for thatright now.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
You don't have time to decompress.

Speaker 6 (44:42):
No time to think about anything.

Speaker 5 (44:43):
Okay, well, one of your dudes just got shot.
You don't know anything aboutit.
One of your teammates is down.
Okay, well, let's go do PT inthe academy for the next hour
and a half.
And too bad, you just don'tknow nothing.
That's just what it was.
So you know, we go through therest of the day and then all of
a sudden you know we get phonecalls like hey, he's gone.
So we get phone calls like hey,he's gone.

(45:10):
So for the longest time nobodytalked about it.
And again, you know I mentionedjoe earlier.
Like some people, I'll actuallycall out by name.
Uh, some people I won't, butjoe man.
I I cannot say enough goodabout that dude.
When you, if you ever get thechance to meet joe lane, he is
one of a kind.
There will never be another joelane, not even close.
He is an absolute wild man andhe does not care how big, how

(45:35):
bad you are.
He is man to man with you, nomatter what position you're in.
I don't care if it's joe schmoefrom the streets, I don't care
if it's upper brass, I don'tcare if it's Joe Schmo from the
streets, I don't care if it'supper brass, I don't care if
it's a lieutenant colonel in themilitary, it does not matter to
him.
You're a man, you're on thesame level as him and he's going
to treat you right.
But Joe, finally now, joe wasone of Daniel's best friends.

(45:59):
You know, they had timetogether on the weekends.
They hung out, they smokedcigars together, watched movies.
So you know, finally Joe stepsup and he's like man, what the
hell are we doing?
And he was like we're not doingDaniel's legacy any good by
sweeping the things that hepossibly did wrong that day

(46:19):
under the rug, like we should belearning from this and we
should be talking about it.
And he was like you know,straight up, daniel messed up.
That's just how he put it.
And he was like you know, Iwish he wouldn't have and he
knew better.
But from what everybody has said, what happened was is Daniel

(46:40):
got to that place looking forthe guy that shot him because of
other felonies that this guyhad committed.
Daniel was a detective at thetime.
He was after this dude and whenhe got there, the guy at the
front door come out and he waslike there's nobody else in
there.
The guy had told the guy at thefront door if you let that
officer in here, I'm going tokill him.

(47:01):
So he already knew and the dudestill lied and told Daniel
nobody's in this house.
They had no clue.
The guy was in the back room ofthese Section 8 housing units
with a girl held hostage and hehad told her if you say anything
, if you let him know you'rehere or we're here, I'll kill
you too.
So straight up, man Daniel goesin nonchalant, doesn't pull his

(47:26):
weapon, nothing, he's radioactually there, yeah, he
believed it, that nobody was inthat apartment.
And he goes in and clears theinitial room because you know
it's small section, eighthousing.
Uh, the living room and kitchenis one open area together and
then you have a side bathroomdoor.
And he went through the livingroom, looked around, looked

(47:49):
through the kitchen, lookedthrough the side bathroom door
and then when he stepped intothe last doorway, which was the
bedroom, when he stepped throughthat doorway the dude stuck the
gun directly to Daniel's templeand squeezed through, killed
him Straight up.
Lack of tactics you don'tbelieve anybody when they tell

(48:11):
you a house is clear.
It's never clear until you knowfor a fact it's clear.
So you know there's always oneperson there and when you find
one, you look for two, when youfind two, you look for three.
There's always a plus onefactor until you know for a fact
nobody's in that structure.
And unfortunately man like hejust got complacent and he went

(48:32):
through and what happenedhappened?

Speaker 6 (48:35):
But you know something Joe taught, and he's
right it's on the trainers too,for allowing complacency to
become so common.
Yeah.
At my first apartmentcomplacency.
If you wasn't just chill thenyou were over the top.
Yeah, I fired my taser my firstday by myself on the streets.
Because it turns out later onthe guy actually had a gun in

(48:57):
his waistband.
He had stolen it from hisgrandpa.
But I kind of caught some flackoff of that because, well, we
knew that you were going to pullthe.
You know we were going to pulla taser or shoot somebody.
I mean, you're a female.
That was kind of the.
You know that doesn't make anysense.
I got in foot pursuit.
I chased after the dude backbehind Goodwill.
He cuts over to go back into awooded area and he meets a

(49:19):
barbed wire fence, turns around,throws his fists up, turns
around, throws his fists up.
I pulled my taser out, didn'ttase him at that point in time
because I'm thinking well, I'mgoing to fight him because I'm
not going to use my taserbecause I'm a girl.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
But see that right there, that's a mentality that
we all have.
Yes, it is.
You've got this Batman beltfull of tools.

Speaker 6 (49:38):
You do.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
But what's your first initial thing?
No, I'm going to fight him andthat's exactly what I fought.

Speaker 6 (49:43):
And I came home mad, just as mad as I could be that
day.
Talking to him, I said, listen,I started to tase him and I
didn't.
I started to put it back in theholster and drop my fist and
just fist, fight him right backthere and arrest him.
He had a warrant.
That's why he was running.
I was familiar with him.
Well, he falls back because hegets tangled up in the barbed

(50:04):
wire fence.
He starts to fall backwards andI'm like I taste him after that
at some point.
But mentally, 48, 72 hours,things get foggy and I'm like I
don't remember why I taste him,but I remember something else
made me draw and taste him.
I didn't taste him when hethrew his fist up and started
coming at me.
Then he falls backwards and Itaste him.
Something happened.
I wasn't allowed to wash mybody cam.

(50:26):
They were like you're going toprobably end up getting wrote up
over this, like had me allstressed out over it, and I was
like I didn't tase him for noreason and they were like you
have to tell me now.
I'm not going to tell youanything until 48, 72 hours from
now.
That's whenever you aresupposed to talk to me about it,
and that's when I'll be back totalk to you about it.
See, that mentality gets younot very good friends in the law

(50:48):
enforcement realm.
You created it, you created yourenemies.
I created my enemies rightthere.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
A good department will have your back in that
situation, but if you buck thesystem at a bad department that
has bad leadership.

Speaker 6 (50:59):
That will come back to bite you, and that's what
happened to me on day one.
That was my red sign.
Come to find out.
I remember seeing it on thefootage Before I even got to see
my footage.
I'm like, go back and look, washe reaching in his waistband?
And they were like, well, youcan kind of see.
And I was like, well, let mesee it.
Like three days later we go torewind it.

(51:20):
And I said he was reaching inhis waistband.
Well, why can't you tell usthat three days ago?
I'm like, do we need to go backto the academy?
I mean, what do you mean?
That's in mental health class.
It takes 48 to 72 hours.
You have cortisol that dumps.
Do I need to go through allthis Again?
I created my enemies rightthere because I was expected to
just lay down and take awrite-up.
Yes, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (51:37):
But come to find out.
It sounded like they wanted youto fail at the beginning.

Speaker 5 (51:44):
There were one or two there that absolutely did.

Speaker 6 (51:46):
There were one or two and I won't get into it right
now, but there were one or twothat absolutely hated my guts
and I never even knew thembeforehand, but it was because
and I won't say the term theynicknamed me.
Certain things that had nobusiness being nicknamed for me
Gave me a really hard way to go.
Like I said, come to find out.

(52:07):
I taste him and it was in thebody cam footage he was reaching
and they found out.
One of the other officers toldme that I went to the academy
with.
He was like, by the way, theydidn't tell you this, but I took
a stolen gun police report fromhis grandfather.
He stole the handgun from himearlier that day.
I mean I knew now.
I didn't arrest him at thatpoint because he had been
arrested so many times.
He rolled out of the wires andbroke the taser wires and then I

(52:30):
get hung up in the baudoirfence and I'm still trying to go
after him.
But you know.

Speaker 5 (52:34):
So just to give everybody that might be
listening you know a little bitof idea of what she's saying,
because she's not justtrash-talking these guys.

Speaker 6 (52:44):
No.

Speaker 5 (52:44):
These are the same type of people that would be
sitting in a public restaurantand pull their taser out in a
public restaurant and point itat the TV with the laser on,
with Obama on the TV, andexclaim out loudly that's not my
effin president and this is anofficer in uniform.

Speaker 6 (53:04):
Yeah, they had public complaints on them and then but
what I'm coming out?

Speaker 4 (53:09):
well and yeah that's yeah and we've all, we've all
worked with that time no, yeah,officer.

Speaker 6 (53:16):
I mean, we just never should have been a cop in the
first place, exactly yeah, andand that you know, and
unfortunately that was one ofthe only aspects of my career
that being a female reallyhindered me.
Leanne Boyle I was on thedepartment with her, one of a
kind.
I had some really really goodmentors at that department.
Honestly, that just shaped meto be who I am today, even me

(53:42):
being former law enforcement.
I mean, they really taught me alot about overcoming stuff like
that and not letting people youdon't let people get you down
just because they're doingsomething that's wrong.
You've got to overlook that andjust brush it under the rug and
realize that's theirshortcomings and, you know, go
on about it.
But again, honestly, that waseven less of me being a female
and more of what.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Standing up for yourself is really what it was
you stood up.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
Yeah.
And them being very, very badhuman beings, not just bad cops.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
And in this profession there is a stigma on
female officers.
And you better not complain,because everybody knew you were
going to complain and I will saythat not all females are cut
out for the job, but not allmales are cut out for the job
either.
That's true.

Speaker 6 (54:27):
That's true.

Speaker 2 (54:28):
So, and I mean I've worked with several guys that
shouldn't have been the police.
I went through guys in theacademy that didn't make it
through PTO because they werecowards, I mean.
So the same goes for bothgenders as far as that goes.

Speaker 5 (54:41):
It does, man.
I mean and I'll build on thatright now so you know you can't
help but question, especially,you know, as a male officer,
some of these little guys comethrough, they're still male and
you talk about the stigma andyou're like, okay, you know he's
a little guy, is he going to beable to handle this stuff,
right?
But then some of the femaleofficers come through and you

(55:01):
look at them and you're like, Imean, is she going to be able to
handle herself?
I mean, you know you look at itin both aspects, both genders.
But you know I've got I ain'tgoing to call him by name, but
we had an officer.
That man, like this guycouldn't have got me off of him
in training with my hands tiedbehind my back.

Speaker 6 (55:18):
I mean, he was a joke , he had a beat.

Speaker 5 (55:21):
I've seen him actively sit on the side of the
road with active domestic callswhere people were getting their
hind ends handed to them at home, and he would sit there and
wait for another officer to passhim on the way to that call
before he would jump in behindhim and respond.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Just so he wouldn't be first.

Speaker 5 (55:39):
Yeah, because he was afraid.
But you know, like one of thethings with her, you know, we
had just barely started talkingin the academy and you know we
always kept it professional,never did anything while we were
at the academy, didn't havenothing to do with each other.
We wouldn't team up with eachother unless they made us.
You know, we had nothing to dowith each other at that academy.
That's respect for the academy,honestly To the point that the

(56:02):
instructors finally found it outat the end of the academy and
they said you know, normallythis is a big thing that's
frowned upon, but with you two,the way you treat each other
like we're good, don't saynothing about it yeah, because
the policy was not during theacademy and they're like that.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Okay, we had some squad leaders in our class that
got got demoted because of allthat.
They were like yeah, yeah, andwe actually we didn't there that
.
They were like I'm graduating,yeah, and we didn't, there was
no technicality by the policy.

Speaker 6 (56:29):
There was no fraternization they were like by
our policy, like you're goodyeah.

Speaker 5 (56:34):
Like nothing happened at the academy and even when we
would leave knowing good andwell, when we actually got you
know deeper into dating, knowinggood and well, we were going to
leave and in 20 minutes we weregoing to meet up at home, but
we would leave in separatevehicles.
We wouldn't even ride togetherout of the parking lot because
we had that much respect forwhat they had asked us to do.

Speaker 6 (56:51):
They put us together in domestics and everything when
we first started talking it wasfunny because, you know, again,
you can't help but question.

Speaker 5 (56:59):
And we were doing this drill one time it's called
bull in the ring and basicallythere was two different versions
.
There was, you were either inthe middle of everybody else by
yourself and they would come atyou and you just kind of had to
deal with what was coming at you.
But what they did was theysplit our class up into halves.
Well, half of you were on theinner ring, half of you were on

(57:21):
the outer ring.
The outer ring's job was togive the inner ring heck.
Well, every time you had tofight that person for 30 seconds
to a minute and then when thewhistle blew, you moved to the
next person to your right andthen you did it again.
And we did this with 8, 10, 12people because they wanted to
see.
You know, yeah, they weretrying to smoke you.

(57:42):
So I get to her and I'm like,like you know, I've got a little
girl at home and she's got ason at home.
I don't want to have to worryfor the rest of my policing
career if my girlfriend, fiance,wife, whatever, you know, this
comes to pass.
I don't have to worry aboutevery day if she's capable of

(58:05):
handling herself or she's gonnabe able to come
home, we're going to get this upright here so I'm like dude,
I'll weigh this chick by 100 andsomething pounds and you know,
I mean I'm not a small guy, I'ma fairly stout guy and I'm like
I'm just gonna give her hell,I'm gonna see how she handles.

Speaker 6 (58:22):
And again, being a female, I never once wanted
anyone to go easy on me, becausethat's not how it works on the
street, right yeah?

Speaker 5 (58:28):
so I was like man, I'm gonna give her hell and see
how this plays out, like I'mgonna make her prove to me that
I don't have to worry about heron these streets so I did you
know jumper, and them guys werewatching I'll get to that same.
So brian sp was watching and itwas hilarious because I got on
top of her and pinned her down.

(58:49):
Well, I was like, well, I'mjust going to like bear my
weight on her because, again,you know, I weigh her by over
100 pounds, 126 pounds, yeah,and I was like I'm going to bear
down on her and I'm just goingto give her hell, like I'm going
to make her fight out fromunderneath of me.
Dude, all of a sudden I got thesharpest pain in my chest.
I squalled out because I waslike what the is that she bit

(59:11):
the shit out of me.

Speaker 6 (59:14):
It threw him off for such the shortest time that I
was able to do the hip thrustand it made him off balance.
And then I swept his arm andthen I got him off of me.

Speaker 5 (59:27):
I'm not talking about like just a nibble.
I had teeth marks for weeks.

Speaker 2 (59:32):
She took off a nibble .
She bit me right there on myupper chest.

Speaker 3 (59:37):
She bit the shit out of me and I squalled out and of
course my inspector.

Speaker 5 (59:41):
he comes running.
He's like what happened?
I'm like she bit me and hestarts dying laughing.
He's like it worked didn't it?

Speaker 6 (59:46):
Yeah, he said I don't care if it's a brick, I don't
care if it's a rock, I don'tcare if it's a hammer.
A fair fight is not a thing onthe street.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
There you go, congrats.

Speaker 5 (01:00:01):
So yeah, actually, like you know teeth and nails to
get out from underneathsomebody, then she'll be okay.

Speaker 4 (01:00:07):
You should have thought about that when she
started spitting her mouth guardout.
I did too.
I did.

Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
It was too late.
She had already sunk her teeth.

Speaker 6 (01:00:20):
I spit it out and bit the crap out of him.
I didn't give a fuck.
He had to fill teeth.
She's like my teased.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
There you go.

Speaker 6 (01:00:27):
Good thing she couldn't eat any of it and
honestly, like he and he, Inever once asked anybody, like I
said, to go easy on me, becausethat's just shortening yourself
in training you know, but Doug,how many times did we fight
growing up?
I mean, he house a lot and weplay around here you go let's
put you on there.

Speaker 4 (01:00:46):
I've known her ever since she was this high, and
that's, that's a little littlebitty and uh, she's copper
headish.

Speaker 5 (01:00:55):
Put it that way especially on the fang part.

Speaker 4 (01:00:59):
Yeah she was, she was a good girl.
But now I never doubted in mymind.
When she became a play saucer Isaid she'll be all right yeah
she's tough, there's no doubt inmy mind that she'll be able to
handle herself.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
With that being said, do you feel like as a female
out on the street because thesame goes for little guys like
he was talking about do you feellike you were tested more by
suspects?
And stuff, Because you know youget a guy.
That's 6'4", 300 pounds, stepsout of a cruiser.
It might change somebody's mind, but you get somebody that's
5'3".

Speaker 6 (01:01:34):
I'll tell you what happened with the whole Taser
incident.
What that done to me was.
It told me that, no matter if Iwas right or wrong, there were
certain people who were going tomake me out to be wrong.
So I may as well do what Ineeded to do anyways.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Yeah, period Exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:01:48):
If I had to shoot somebody, some people were going
to say, oh, it's because she'sa little female and she was
afraid Whatever, let them talk.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Our philosophy was always we might be wrong in the
morning, but we're right tonight, Right Exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:02:08):
That's never how admin works.
Yeah, you know 2020, you knowthe hindsight is 2020, but, um,
I tested, yes, but I had moremen cry on me in the back of my
cruiser.
All I had to do most of thetime I don't know why I had mom
voice.
I could walk up and they'd beyelling and cussing everybody
and I'd walk up saying that'senough and they'd be like, yes,
ma'am, and then be quiet.

Speaker 5 (01:02:24):
Yeah it was so funny to see sometimes Because I'd
have this guy that was, you know, like outweighing me we went on
calls together, to put it inperspective, for you know the
people that are going to listento this later.
I mean, I'm six foot and Iweigh 230.
You know, and I'm a fairly fitguy, I'm not 100 pounds.
They'd be sitting in my face.
You, mother, effing P-O-L, whipyour hind end and everything

(01:02:46):
and she'd come up.
That's a no use ma'am.

Speaker 6 (01:02:48):
Hang her head.

Speaker 5 (01:02:49):
Wilt and hang their head and go to the back of the
crib.

Speaker 6 (01:02:51):
You kiss your mother with that mouth.

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
Yeah, it was like she had mom control over them and
I'm like, why does this worklike this?
Like I'm having to buy the fistfight with this guy.
And she just looked at him likeshut up and get a car.
That's not.

Speaker 6 (01:03:07):
It did work sometimes , you know, there were, other
times there was no.

Speaker 4 (01:03:13):
I showed up to a call she did about do?

Speaker 6 (01:03:16):
Are you out of both?
He drank both coffees.

Speaker 2 (01:03:19):
Chugged them, chugged them.

Speaker 6 (01:03:23):
A lifetime of night shift.
I went on a call one day and itwas this guy that was on meth
and he was like he fell asleepin a car, lot car.
And they showed up, of course,and they're like some random
guys in the car, and I went toget him out.
Of course, like I said, I wasby myself a decent amount of the
time.
Emts got there about the sametime I did.
He's just barely with it, youknow, you can tell he's higher

(01:03:46):
than a kite.
He was on meth and he was justwaking up and this, that and the
other, and he went to flailinghis arms, not fighting, but he
was just flailing his arms, andI grabbed his hands and I
handcuffed him at the time infront of him because I couldn't
get him out of the car, tohandcuff him, put him on the
ground and have him covered onhis back.
This big brute of an emt is likehere, I'll help you, I'm sure I
don't care, that's fine, he,he's all, but he always goes

(01:04:08):
hands-on anyways.
So we, I handcuff and we puthim in.
We're worried about getting tothe hospital because we don't
know, like, how close tooverdosing he is.
He's kind of going downhillsomewhat.
Well, he lifts his hands up andtries starting to fight
everybody in the I'm gonna haveto handcuff him to the rails or
something.
Not really thinking for real,not really thinking, I take his

(01:04:29):
hands and I slam them down inhis lap.
Well, it hit him between hislegs and he was like oh.
And he starts like I'm like,dude, stop, stop trying to hit
people.
Of course I'm already in theback.
I'm getting like getting like Iget car sick.
I'm like y'all are going tohave to get us to the hospital.
We get up there and then Ileave and I go on other calls.

(01:04:50):
I get a call from dispatch back.
They come over the radio andthey say you need to go back up
to the hospital because he isclaiming that he had $1,000
stolen from his wallet.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Of course.

Speaker 6 (01:05:10):
I said tell him that Officer Madden will be right
back in just a few minutes.

Speaker 4 (01:05:12):
She came back over the radio and she said he said
disregard, because you were toomean.
He didn't want to deal with you.

Speaker 6 (01:05:16):
Punch him in the balls, okay, I walked in anyways
, I was like I'm going to go by.
Anyways, I knew the nurse wasthere that day and I called and
I was like is he being?
good.
She's like, yeah, he's been alittle bit on and I said I'll be
right back up there.
And I just walked by and he waslike get her away from me, just
screaming.
I'm like, look, I'm not goingto come in there, I'm not going
to get y'all agitated again,just chill out.
Did you really have something?

(01:05:40):
I knew that's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
You know, ashley had that effect.

Speaker 4 (01:05:43):
You know we worked with she was yeah she was.
Ashley can handle herself.
She could she had that lowerbody strength.
So she man, one time her and I,I worked with her quite a bit.
You know we was walking outsideand she didn't have a hat on.

(01:06:03):
You know we was in BDUs orwhatever class Bs.
We was at Walmart and there wasa storm coming and we was
looking for a shoplifter.
It ran off.
We were just walking throughthe parking lot, this storm's
coming, and all of a sudden herhair stands straight up.
I was like we got to go.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
We were getting down, we were getting down, we were
getting down.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
I was like the best end of camp, getting struck by
lightning.

Speaker 6 (01:06:32):
It was wild, oh man.
Yeah, that probably freaked meout too.
Speaking of lightning andstorms and stuff.
This is probably the last thingbecause I really want you to
tell them, Camp Hero.
But I went on a 1046, an injuryaccident on 75 going south,
right there in Berea.
Interstate had went, or on theinterstate, sorry, a truck had

(01:06:55):
went, a semi had went throughthe wall.
Turned out there was nobodyactually really that injured at
that particular thing, but ithad.
There was debris all over, hadthe entire interstate shut down
except for the emergency lane.
It was the type of rain thatwhen I jumped out of my car I
instantly had water at themedian.
I had to jump over the median.

(01:07:16):
I had water inside of my shoes.
It's great.
Yeah, just a great day.
Well, this guy blows around thesemi and almost hits me with
his car and of course, I havenever wanted to put a maglite
through a window so bad in mylife but I didn't frowned upon
it is frowned upon so I didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
I held my composure.

Speaker 6 (01:07:35):
I didn't and I flagged him and stopped him.
He he pulled over real quick.
He's like I'm sorry I didn'tsee you.
Well, I give him the best like10 minute time out I can.
I had to write him a ticket.
I'm like I don't have time totransport him for reckless
driving and do all this that andthe other.
I'm going to write him for aseat belt and careless driving.
We'll just deal with that.
But we'll give him a.

Speaker 3 (01:07:53):
I was because I mean again I really I was mad.

Speaker 6 (01:07:56):
I should just let him go, but I was.
He almost hit me.
Yeah, well, I'm like you thinkyou know better than that.
You're not supposed to do this.
You could have hit and killedsomebody.
You could have hit and killedone of the other officers and
there's victims over here andI'm telling him all this stuff
and he's like looks terrified.
Humans have so many differentways that they project emotions.
He was terrified.
Okay, whatever, maybe he's hada bad experience before.

(01:08:19):
Turn around and walk back to mycruiser and started to get in
and my sergeant said Amanda,what he's like, you might want
to wipe your face.
I wiped my face, my cheekbone,and I looked at it and I had
mascara all over my face.
It was so thick running down myface.

Speaker 3 (01:08:45):
He's so scary, I said .
He said he said that poor man,let him go.
He was laughing.

Speaker 6 (01:08:49):
He said just let him go.
And I said I'm not letting himgo.
He said just let him go.
I was like why.
He said you have scared him.
He's never coming back toKentucky again.
I mean dang.

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
He still has nightmares From that point on.

Speaker 6 (01:09:03):
I literally started.

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
I used waterproof mascara every time that I went
to work after that, Because oh,it was.

Speaker 6 (01:09:10):
I mean, the look on my face was like.
I was like oh.

Speaker 5 (01:09:17):
You know we've done some talking tonight on.
You know some of the bad stuffthat you deal with with policing
, but it's amazing how she'sreferred to it several times as
a front row seat to the greatestshow on earth.
It it is.
It really.
Is man what?
Some of the stuff that you seethat you never expected to
happen.
It can be so dangerous and soupsetting sometimes, and then

(01:09:41):
some stuff is just absolutelyhilarious and you could exactly
human psychology like yeah, someof it absolutely hilarious and
you could human psychology, likesome of it you could go your
whole lifetime without wantingto see, and then some of it
you're like I can't believe thatI was a part of that once in a
lifetime experience what

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
do you call it?
It's a tragedy, it's like amovie.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
it's like a movie and the public.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
you mean you got all and the public determines you
got drama, you got comedy, yougot suspense, you got thriller,
you got it all.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
And it can all happen in one day?
Yeah, absolutely.
And all that rolled up into one.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
But it's just like, you're just like living in a
movie.

Speaker 6 (01:10:19):
Yeah, and that movie changes.

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
These changes constantly.

Speaker 6 (01:10:22):
It does.
And then you got to turn it alloff as soon as you walk through
the door and you got kids or awife or husband or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:10:31):
So dealing with.
Let's go back to when he waskilled, when Ellis was killed.
Was it Ellis?
Yes, I get them because we wentthrough it you talked about.
You know some of the mentalside of that.
You know.

(01:10:52):
Did the department handle that?
Because this was early whentalking about your feelings.
You know 2015,.
You know it's changed a lotsince Logan died down here.

Speaker 5 (01:11:01):
Yeah.
So I will say this, man, evenin that time frame, you know we
joked around and I guessofficers deal with stuff in a
really odd way.
You know one of the ways thatyou forget about.
You know the dead child thatyou just saw.
Or you know the body parts youjust picked up off the side of
the interstate, or you knowwhatever the case may be, or you

(01:11:23):
know the child that you sawthat's half-starved to death,
that you know you had to getthem to social services, even
though the parents trying, orwhatever the case may be.
You know one of the things thatyou do to deal with that and it
just kind of it just kind ofhappens.
It's not like you're born withit, but you develop, you know
dark humor to deal with it andyou know it's really one of the

(01:11:44):
coping mechanisms.
You know you'll cut up withother officers and you kind of
ignore it.
Um, but it was weird, man,because you know when Daniel got
shot and the department wasdealing with that stuff, you
know it was.
I had a PTO I won't mention himby name super laid-back, chill

(01:12:05):
guy, and he actually told me hewas my first phase PTO and I'll
never forget this.
I've laughed about it numeroustimes since.
But he looked at me at the endof my PTO phase and he said I
said you know, going into phasetwo, what's something that I can
do?
And he said I want you to keepsurprising people.
And I was like what do you mean?

(01:12:31):
And he said I want you to keepsurprising people.
And I was like what do you mean?
He said well, just to be honestwith you, you look like a prick
.
Yeah, okay, straight up.
He was like yeah, but once Iget to know you like you're
really a really nice, laid-back,easygoing guy and you get along
really well with the community.
And I told him I was like youknow, through my corrections,
career and stuff like that, I'velearned that it's easier for me
to go into a situation with alook on my face like do not mess
with that officer, and thenthem figure out that I'm a super

(01:12:51):
nice guy.

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
Yeah, you can always take it down.

Speaker 5 (01:12:53):
Rather than me go in there looking like I'm a big
pushover and happen to regaincontrol, right.
So that's you know what I did.
But you know that's getting alittle off topic.
But with this particular PTO hewas always really laid back and
chill.
And then we arrested this girlone day and was taking her to
jail and she actually said I'mglad Daniel got shot and I hope

(01:13:16):
it happens to you too.
And he lost his shit and heturned around and looked at her,
started screaming at her andtold her she needed to shut the
F up right now.
And I just looked at him and Iwas like dude, look, you know.
I know I'm new at this and I'mfeeding off of what you have
taught me.
She's just trying to get to you.
And it's worse, she's pissed offbecause she's going to jail and

(01:13:40):
she's trying to bring you downwith her.
Get a hold of yourself, take awalk.
And we just pulled over in theparking lot.
While I was writing up thecitation, he got out and walked
around the parking lot and youknow, I mean it would have been
really easy as the new guy to belike I well, you know he's the
pto, let him do his thing.
But you know you have to holdeach other accountable and stuff
too absolutely but it wasreally weird.

(01:14:01):
Walking around that departmentfor the next several months and
you know, one minute you'd betalking to a dude and he'd be
cutting up laughing, and then,all of a sudden, depression,
anxiety just rears its ugly head, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
And an event like that it brings us, because we
all walk around 10 feet tall,bulletproof.
You know that never happened tous.
You see it on TV.
You know officers get shot.
You know officers, officers die.

Speaker 6 (01:14:27):
You know it's a dangerous job, but it's not
reality because it hasn'thappened to you or to somebody
until it does yeah and then it'slike, well, that's real, that's
not yeah, so that could havebeen me at that, exactly, and it
changes your whole thoughtprocess.

Speaker 4 (01:14:43):
Yeah, we lost two officers in a year One with
COVID, yeah, and then Logan waskilled by a drunk driver on duty
.
Yeah, you talk about that phonecall.
You know you talk about gettingthat call.
I was chief.
Talk about getting that call.
I was chief and probably thehardest thing I've ever went

(01:15:11):
through.
It devastated me so deliveringdeath notifications to his
father and mother, who was alsoassistant chief.

Speaker 6 (01:15:25):
That's bad enough for regular citizens, let alone
somebody that you know so well.

Speaker 4 (01:15:30):
So that trauma, it was crushing to the point where
I was sitting in my desk I waslike I'm going to die right
behind here from stress, yeah,from the heartbreak, from the
stress of it, from the I don'tknow what to do, I don't know

(01:15:51):
how to go on from here.
Yeah, and the absolute bestthing, somebody went through a,
went to the, you know, went toone of the classes up there and
had some, you know, some trauma,and they came down and I sent

(01:16:18):
as many people as I could totalk to her and I still continue
to go back, but I can still,you know, I don't know if you,
you can't get over it.
I don't want to get over it, Ijust need to cope.
So those things happened and itwas just, it was, it was
surreal, it was sickening.

(01:16:39):
I remember throwing up in theiryard.
Yeah.
I don't know.
And then the whole time I wastalking to her, I was going back
to Travis when he when he diedbecause I didn't deal with that,

(01:17:00):
right?
Yeah, so all this pent up stuff, not to mention the things that
we go through as individuals,you know, as officers, through
the years.
This is at my 20 year mark whenall this is happening.

Speaker 6 (01:17:13):
It's all stacked up.

Speaker 4 (01:17:15):
And all that stuff came flying out.
Yeah, and I'm supposed to beleading this through this and
luckily, you know, I got thatpretty quick.
It was after the funeral andstuff like that and it was just
I was able to lean on someformer chiefs and some people

(01:17:39):
that came in and be like couldmake the phone call.
I don't know who to call and Idon't know what to do.
And luckily Eric Johnson withyou know, with Supporting Heroes
, all that, you know they'regreat and they came down and
basically helped.
And I just remember, you know weshut down Our community, our

(01:18:00):
sheriff's office, jackson County, you know all these places came
down and provided officerswhile we shut down for that week
.
And you know we'd get together,do things together, go to
counseling class, debrief, stufflike that, just to go through

(01:18:20):
it.
Because I learned that lesson Iwas a lieutenant when Travis
died it.
Because I learned that lesson,I was a lieutenant when Travis
died and I remember we you knowyou learn lessons from that.
Sadly, you hate to have to gothrough it.
So, you know, in the same year,but I was like we, this one's a
you know a murder, it was a,you know drunk and I was like

(01:18:44):
we've got to, we can't function,we can't.
This was our friend, ourbrother, so we shut down.
The mayor blessed it and waslike, hey, whatever you need to
do.
And I remember after thefuneral I was like, how do we
start back?
How do you start this backwithout?
And it was terrible trying togo in and I knew I was like

(01:19:06):
we're wrong, something's wrong.
So until we got the grievingprocess and through some
counseling things, we were nevergoing to be okay.
And you know, maybe, maybethat's a good segue into Camp
Hero and trauma and the thingsthat we go through.

(01:19:30):
But tell us a little bit aboutwhat you are doing with them.
Are you volunteering with themtoo?
Do you do?
Yes?

Speaker 5 (01:19:37):
I don't get a chance to do it as much as, but yes, um
, we both volunteer with camphero so, um, again, man, like
you know, I've touched base onit a few times, you know, during
this and uh, I'm gonna touchbase on it again.
God works in some really funnyways.
Um, and I'm gonna tell just areal quick thing and then dive

(01:19:57):
directly into how this hashelped me with camp.
You know, when I was workingfor the jail, I used to sit and
I would actually write poetryabout different things.
At the time I was married andwe had had a child, a little

(01:20:18):
girl, and she's actually myoldest daughter now out of the
three daughters that I have, andone son.
But me and my ex-wife werehaving trouble and we ended up,
long story short, I caught hercheating on me.

(01:20:38):
We had been on some rocky roadsfor a little while.
She started seeing some otherdude behind my back and I
figured out about it.
So I confronted her, sheadmitted to it and you know a
couple of arguments and stuffensued.
You know things got reallyrough for a little while and
through all this arguing andgoing back and forth and stuff

(01:20:59):
like that, I got reallydepressed and I actually wrote a
poem that said it seems yourlove has left its mark.
And now I sit here alone in thedark thinking to myself should
I end it all or shall I justcontinue to fall?
Well, not anymore, becausetonight I've decided I'll no

(01:21:22):
longer fall.
Tonight I've decided to end itall.
So tonight I'll sit here alonein the dark and everyone will
hear this pistol leave its mark.
So I wrote that with the intenthorrible time, amen, that's our
lives.
So, with the intent Horribletime, horrible time, amen,
that's our lives, isn't it.

(01:21:43):
So I wrote that poem with thefull intent that that night when
I got off work, I got off at 8in the morning and I was going
to go pick up my little girl shewas just learning to talk and
we were just going to have thegreatest day that we could
possibly have.
And I went and got her, tookher to the park, we had
breakfast together, went and gotice cream, did all this stuff

(01:22:09):
together, went shopping and,just you know, had a really good
day.
And I was sitting there on thecouch and I was watching her
play in the living room floor,knowing that that night my plan
was to take her back to her momand then I was going to eat my
pistol.
That was my plan, straight up.
So I was sitting there watchingher play and all of a sudden

(01:22:36):
the eyes broke.
And all of a sudden the eyejust broke Like I threw my face
in my hands, started bawling myeyes out because I knew it was
going to be one of the lasttimes I ever saw her.
And all of a sudden her handsreached up and she pulled my
hands off my face and she huggedme and she said I love you,
daddy.
And I knew then I can't do this,like I can't leave something

(01:22:57):
this good to face this hell thatwe call life on her own.
I can't do that.
So at that time, man, like it'sit's odd because I've talked to
some of my friends from thejail that I'm still, you know,
still talk to.
Now.
You know, man, you have no idea, because you know, for the
longest time you talk about thestigma behind mental health,

(01:23:19):
like for the the longest time,if you thought about killing
yourself, man, you didn't needto be a cop, you were crazy and
people don't understand that youhave trouble regulating your
emotions because you know well,you just scooped this person's
body parts up out of you knowthis guy's house.
But hey, we said that we weregoing to go surprise this kid at

(01:23:41):
3 30 for their birthday becausethey love the police.
So we're going to run up therein our uniforms because they
want to see a bunch of cops fortheir birthday, right so now I
gotta go from well, I just gotdone washing blood off my hands
from a kid in a car crash.
To well, now I gotta go smile ata birthday party and then 30
minutes at after that.
Well, I'm going to a domesticbecause these two people don't
like the way that the chickengot cooked at Walmart that night

(01:24:02):
and they're pissed off about itand it's petty bull crap,
you've got to be bipolar.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
Every shift, every day, literally made to be
bipolar.

Speaker 5 (01:24:08):
It's super hard to regulate your emotion and you
need a support system to helpyou do that.
And I didn't have one.
I've told my friends you haveno idea how many times I smiled
at you and cut up with you andcracked jokes thinking about
eating my pistol after I leftwork that day.
And people just don'tunderstand that.
And it's not that I wanted todie, man, I just wanted the pain

(01:24:30):
to go away.
So the reason I say that isbecause throughout my career
that helped me and I genuinelybelieve this that God let me go
through that because he knewthat one of these days I was
going to be a police officer andmove from corrections into that
policing field and I was goingto deal with people who didn't

(01:24:50):
have a support system and Icould connect with those people
on a whole different level thananother police officer that had
never felt that before and Icould genuinely heartfelt, wise,
understand what was goingthrough their head and why they
felt the way that they felt andthat to them that was the worst
day of their entire life.

(01:25:12):
It wasn't that they wanted todie, it's just that inside they
were hurting so bad.
They just wanted the pain to goaway and they didn't know how
else to make that happen Becausethere was nobody there to help
them and it was a stigma thatyou know.
If you wanted to kill yourself,like you were going to the mud
house, man, that's just how itworked.
So you know, within, probably,what I'd say, like the last you

(01:25:35):
know.
Six, seven years, mental healthhas started becoming a really
big thing in law enforcement.
Well, again, man, by sheergrace of God, I think that me
and Amanda were called out ofpolicing together her in 2020
and me in 2021 for a reason andwe started off we did our own

(01:25:57):
construction business.
We're still doing that today.
We run our constructionbusiness full time and we do
pretty well.
It provides for us and ourfamily.
And for those of you that don'tknow, I teach tactics and
shooting and stuff on theweekends.
I teach pretty much everyweekend.
It's something that I lovedoing.
You know I own VOA Tactical itstands for Violence of Action

(01:26:20):
and I teach civilians andmilitary and police personnel, I
train them to.
You know, do CQT and shootingand stuff and do it well.
Self-defense yeah self-defense,you know fighting all kinds of
stuff.
Put them through scenarios.
I mean we do all kinds of stuff.
You know not to brag oranything, but I have a fairly
good background.
I'm a trained sniper throughNorse's Academy.

(01:26:42):
I'm a breacher, I'm a lesslethal chemical munitions
instructor.
I have knife work under my belt, I'm a combat coordinator.
I mean I have all kinds of crapthat basically means nothing
but it sounds good on paper.
Anyway.
It's your brain engine of me.
You know I've got all thisstuff that I know how to teach

(01:27:06):
and I love and I love passing iton to others.
And you know I've sent guys outof my classes and they've
become, you know, shooters thatpeople don't even like going to
these competitions and stuffwith them, because if they show
up and they see a couple of myguys, they're like we're going
to these competitions and stuffwith them because if they show
up and they see a couple of myguys, they're like we're gonna
lose.
Yeah, so you know we've beenpretty successful with that
that's how you met Rocco andthat's that's how I met Rocco.

(01:27:27):
so one of my students uh, thisbig Italian goober that I've got
, that's a student, he's anawesome guy.
He just, again, god working,looks at me one day and he's
like, hey, you know, I want youto meet this guy at the 511
Tactical Store that just openedup in Lexington.
His name's Jonathan.
He's like he's a former Marineand he really wants to talk to

(01:27:49):
you and I think it would be goodto get your company and 511 in
collaboration with each other.
So I'm like, yeah, dude, let'smeet us.
So I called Jonathan super coolover the phone, um, set up a
time to meet with him.
Well, I get there and like thisguy is nothing like what I
expected.
Jonathan has like super long,wavy black hair.
Uh, he looks like he's amilitary.

(01:28:12):
He looks like he's of likeMuslim descent uh, you know
darker skin, but this guy islike the epitome of the chilled
out dude.
So I start talking withJonathan and we're cutting up
and telling stories and you knowhe's showing me some of the
coins and stuff that he's got inhis coin box and his cash box
there at the store.
And you know he's telling mehey, man, you know I'd love to

(01:28:34):
work with you and all this otherstuff.
And he's like well, by the way,I got this guy named Rocco that
I want you to meet up with.
I'm like, oh, okay, cool.
So you know, now I've went fromI met Max out of the blue yeah,
because he just showed up oneday at class that he had heard
of me.
And you know, then he meets meup with Jonathan out of the blue

(01:28:56):
.
Well, now I'm going to meetthis guy.
And he's like, yeah, the dudeowns Camp Hero.
And I'm like, well, what's CampHero?
And he's like, well, it'sbasically a thing for mental
health.
And as soon as he said it.
I'm like whoa.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:29:12):
I've heard of that.
Yeah, we don't do that.

Speaker 5 (01:29:14):
So I ain't crazy.
And he's like look man, it'snot your typical, you know, go
in and hug and cry.
And you know it's not yourtouchy, feely stuff.
It's.
We all get together as formermilitary guys or, you know,
current retired whatevermilitary first responders and we
just hang out.

(01:29:38):
And I'm like, OK, I mean I couldgive give this a chance.
So I set up a time to go meetwith rocco.
Well, I'm like, okay, you knowthis guy owns this non-profit
you know business.
That's supposed to be formental health.
Like you know, he's gonna showup in you know nice clothes and
he's gonna be a clean cut guy.
You know he's supposed to be abusinessman, right?
This dude shows up and he's ina Dodge Ram four-door that's

(01:30:02):
wrapped in urban camo.
You cannot miss this truck.
It's wrapped in urban camo,says Camp Hero in huge letters
on the side and it's sitting on40s.
This truck is monstrous.
It looks like a tank rollingdown the road and I'm like who
the hell is this guy?
so then, rocco jumps out andhe's this bald, just like

(01:30:24):
absolute monster of a dude.
He's got like 20 inch arms andhe's tatted all over, cut off
shirt, ball shorts and tennisshoes and I'm like hats turned
around backwards.
I'm like had you dressed up forthis?
I was like this ain't, thisain't like.
Yeah, dude, I was wearing poloand khaki pants, which that is

(01:30:45):
dressed up you know, likein-service dressed up, I had my
clean boots on, so you know, Iguess you have flashbacks like
somebody I'm pulling over.
Yeah, so this dude jumps out andhe's like I'm going to shot a
crackhead up the road and I'mlike that's a helpful way to
open up first conversation.
He's like man.

(01:31:05):
The dude was on my property andhe's talking to me and Jonathan
and Jonathan just startslaughing.
He's like Rocco you the dude hewas talking about on the way in
and I was like man.
The guy on the four-wheeler waslike a daggone crackhead.
I mean, you know like you hateto stereotype, but you know what
I'm talking about and Rocco waslike yeah, he said when I got

(01:31:27):
up here he was on our daggoneproperty and I was like can?
I help you.
And he goes no, what I'm doingis none of your business.
And Rocco's like the businessyou're on my property.
So he said, the guy got smartwith him and started digging
into the rack, the console, thefour-wheel.
He was like dude, look, I don'tknow what you're reaching for,
but you need to stop, because Igot a gun in this truck and like

(01:31:47):
I'm not gonna play with you,you need to stop reaching for
whatever you're reaching for andget your ass off my property.
So he's telling us this storyand of course you know we're
doing the whole you knowpolicing thing laughing.
Well, me and Rocco sit and wetalking.
I mean, dude, it's like talkingwith Rocco is like talking to a
brother you didn't know you had.
You know, as soon as he hoppedout of the truck he starts

(01:32:10):
talking about this andmid-sentence the dude just walks
up and gives me a hug.
I mean you feel like you'rebeing hugged by a bear because
he's just so big.
And you're like man, like Idon't even know this guy, and
he's hugging me.
This is kind of giving me someweird vibes.

Speaker 6 (01:32:28):
No, you just don't know how to take it.
You're so standoffish, yeah,and I'm like man like, what is
this?

Speaker 5 (01:32:39):
So we sit and we talk for, you know, know, probably
the next hour and a half or so,and he cuts up and all this
other stuff.
Well then, you know, next thing,I know and I'm not gonna get
too big into this because it'ssome stuff that's still coming
down the pipe um, but you know,rocco offers me a job and it's
something that's an absolutedream to me that it's going to
let me do my tactical stuff 40hours a week and teach people,
which is what I love doinganyway.
So you know, during this timeframe of dealing with Rocco,

(01:33:01):
I've learned a lot about campand the biggest thing that we do
at camp, and kind of the slogan, is it's heroes helping heroes,
heal, and what we do is we dothat through the outdoors.
So we get together as a groupand we just kind of like, we
hang out and it's like-mindedpeople that are just together
and we will go fishing or we'llgo out and do hunts.

(01:33:24):
Uh, he sends people all overthe world for these um hunts, to
go hunt for gators, um, wildboar, awesome, white tail elk,
uh we sent turkey hunts like wedo all kinds of stuff.
man Fly fishing?
Yeah, and we do all this stuffand this foundation Camp Hero.

(01:33:45):
They pay for these veterans andthese first responders to go do
this stuff and it's 100% freeto them.
That's awesome.
So they pay for their travel,they pay for their tickets, they
pay for their lodging, they payfor their food.
They even paid to have the deerand stuff that were killed, the
elk that were killed by thethree guys we sent last year,

(01:34:07):
processed and brought back.
So I mean like it's just areally amazing thing.
And then we partner with allthese other entities like nature
.
Reliance that's taught by craigcoddle, and craig is a
world-renowned survivalinstructor.
He's taught seer before tospecial forces guys.
I mean all kinds of stuff.
And Craig is like he's the dudeyou want to know.

(01:34:29):
If the world goes to crap, hecan walk around your yard and
make you a salad.
That's awesome yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:34:36):
He's got our kids making salads from the yard.
All these leaves that areedible.

Speaker 5 (01:34:40):
Yeah, he knows, I'd like to meet him.

Speaker 4 (01:34:42):
Oh yeah, how do you make ranch dressing out there?
No, no, funnily enough, though.

Speaker 5 (01:34:47):
He's like I mean, you're not going to find ranch
dressing, but if you want to goover to what's it called rosebud
tree.
He's like if you take thelittle pink berries and stuff
off of a redbud.
He's like if you take redbudsoff of the redbud tree and
sprinkle them in the salad, itactually sweetens your salad up
and you don't really need ranchdressing.

Speaker 6 (01:35:03):
It actually does.

Speaker 5 (01:35:04):
Okay, so we did it and the kids will eat it Like
they love it, wow.
But he knows all these thingsand knows how to track animals,
track people, and we team upwith him and he teaches these
survival courses to these guys100 free and you know we partner
with him.
Um, we also help out withat-risk youth.

(01:35:26):
So you know, like some of thethings that we've done is we've
teamed up with some of theplaces in lexington, uh, that
have these kids that you knoware less fortunate or grown up
in Section 8 and things likethat, and basically, like we'll
bring them out and you knowthey've either been in trouble
or they've got a bad family athome or this, that and the other

(01:35:47):
, and we'll take them fishing,we'll teach them how to fish
because they've never done itbefore, they've never had the
opportunity.
So we'll take them fishing andjust have a good time with them,
spend one-on-one time with them, listening to their story,
telling them parts of our storythat you can tell to a 10 or
11-year-old Right, and just tryto connect with them and show
them that there is places outthere that, even though you've

(01:36:10):
had a hard life, you can go toand they can help with your life
and make things better.

Speaker 6 (01:36:15):
Well, it's healing wounded veterans, first
responders and growing futureheroes.

Speaker 5 (01:36:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:36:21):
So the point is letting even those kids who are,
you know, less likely to becomea first responder because of
bad experiences, you give themgood experience as a first
responder in the military andshow them the possibilities and
give them a chance to turn itaround.
So I mean it's a win-win andgive them a chance to turn it
around.

Speaker 4 (01:36:41):
So I mean it's a win-win.
It's like a camp that they cancome and stay at for, say, like
a week Actually yes, so rightnow we are still actively
growing the camp.

Speaker 5 (01:36:51):
So what Rocco does is say we're going to have, you
know, 10, 15 people down there.
We have a small set of bedsinside the actual cabin right
now, but it's only roughlysleeps six to eight people.
So what he'll do if we're goingto have a lot of people like
some people will sleep on bagsin the floor, Some people, like

(01:37:11):
he actually goes and uses fundsfrom the camp that he's done
through fundraisers and stufflike that He'll go rent campers
from the depot and bring themdown there and set them up for
people to sleep in.
Wow so we always accommodateeverybody the best way that we
possibly can.
We either put them in camperstents.
Oh man, Real good figure so.
Rocco's a former Navy vet and aformer police officer.

(01:37:34):
Okay, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:37:36):
Funnily enough, I went to a class down in Corbin
that he came and kind of wasspeaking on it, yeah, and I was
like, wow, and then you kind ofthings happen.
Now I'm like I got to getinvolved, I'm fired up about it
and I got more time now.
So I'm like, hey, maybe this issomething I need to really look

(01:38:00):
at.

Speaker 6 (01:38:00):
Yeah, and for any of the listeners too, they're all
volunteer 501c3 nonprofit.
You can look up moreinformation at campherokyorg.
There is a Camp Hero Arizonanow also.
That's pretty new.

Speaker 5 (01:38:12):
Yeah, we actually just opened that up about a
month ago.

Speaker 6 (01:38:16):
Yeah so.
Camp Hero is growing prettyquickly, but there's actually a
benefit for the break coming upsaturday, august 9th this year
uh, the campbell house inlexington, south broadway.
Um, that's uh from 7 to 11 pmand then, I think, tickets for
that.
Are there still ticketsavailable for?

Speaker 5 (01:38:33):
there's still tickets available.
Uh, they're around a hundreddollars a person.
But I will say this you're notgoing to find a better thing to
do that night.
It's just a bunch of reallygood people.
They get together, they cut up,they have fun.
There's a silent auction whereyou can bid on stuff and I think
guys like it's not just okay.

Speaker 1 (01:38:55):
Well, these are a bunch of military and law
enforcement people so it's abunch of tactical crap.

Speaker 5 (01:38:59):
But there's tactical stuff.
There's guitars signed byfamous people, there's paintings
, there's vacations, there'sgiveaways, there's guns I mean
knives, cups, anything you canthink of.
They auction off at this placeand give stuff away.
That's awesome, and they offersome of the best food that
you'll ever eat.
And it all comes with yourticket price.

(01:39:20):
And then also, I'm not adrinker.
Some of these guys are, butit's an open bar.
So I mean, like you know,you're not going to find a
better group of people to chillout and hang out with and just
have a good time, and you'rehelping out a lot of people that
could really use it.

Speaker 6 (01:39:33):
And the live auction is a lot of fun.

Speaker 5 (01:39:35):
I have it posted on my.

Speaker 6 (01:39:36):
Facebook page, I think Eddie Vedder, axl Rose, I
can't even remember all of them.
There were several that signedOzzy.
Osbourne signed the guitar.

Speaker 5 (01:39:45):
They're going to be auctioning it off up there.

Speaker 6 (01:39:49):
And that was all before Ozzy passed away, so I
was like man.

Speaker 5 (01:39:54):
So we've got that guitar, we've got custom
paintings, I mean just all kindsof stuff that's going to be at
this auction and this giveawayand, like I said, everything
that we get from it helps tofund the next year's worth of
events that we host and partnerwith all these people to help
these guys and these girls thathave been through, you know, all
these crises and stuff, and letthem know that number one

(01:40:19):
you're not alone, you're not byyourself.
A lot of people have beenthrough what you've been through
and they understand how youfeel and we give them an open
opportunity to just sit and talk.
One of the first true, honesttimes that I had ever really
broken down and told somebody mystory of nearly committing

(01:40:40):
suicide and the poem that Iwrote and how I felt was at camp
and with other guys and itwasn't, you know.
Just one of those things like,oh well, let's all sit down and
talk about our feelings.
We were all just sitting aroundbs and then the topic or
whatever and we were having agood day and then all of a
sudden topic come up and it waslike, hey, a good day.
And then all of a sudden thetopic come up and it was like,

(01:41:00):
hey, why do I feel comfortableactually talking with these
people about this?

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
But I did.
That's what kind of thispodcast has done for us and some
of the guys.
It's gave us opportunity to getthings off our chest and kind
of talk.
And it's weird, like you saidin the beginning it's weird to
push that record button at firstand you're kind of nervous, but
then it's like the more you doit and the more you get into it.

(01:41:25):
It's like comfortable, it'slike just talking to, it's like
I mean it's.

Speaker 4 (01:41:29):
We're broadcasting this to anybody that wants to
listen.
However the therapy it's, it'slike.
You know, I'm a Christian.
I love Jesus, but being openabout your faith or being open
about the struggles that you goto, it's funny how you can do

(01:41:51):
that to everybody now, and I hadto go through that.
I wouldn't have shared a lot ofthis info.
I didn't want my wife to knowsome of this stuff, or my kids
or my mom and dad.

Speaker 6 (01:42:03):
You feel like you're burdening people whenever you
talk about it.

Speaker 4 (01:42:06):
But when you get that off your chest to them, it
opens up to where you're okay toshare it with us and the
listeners that we have, andthat's growth and that's that
shows that, hey, it's okay to beRight, we're injured.
It's okay to be not okay.
Things have happened to us.

Speaker 6 (01:42:25):
Like he said, God works in mysterious ways.
This right here is the cabin atCamp Hero.
It's a little sketch of it.
My great-grandfather actuallywas born in that cabin.
I didn't know it until my momand mom was like oh, I know of
Camp Hero, your grandfather wasborn Full circle, know it until

(01:42:46):
my mom.
And mom was like oh, I know ofcamp hero, your grandfather was
born so, but you know, me andhim have been able to talk to
each other.
Um, I know I had told you allbefore we ever even started this
.
Um, people think that suicideor suicidal ideation is planned
or is wanted, but you don't everhear of impulsive suicide, like
most people think that.
Well, that's not a thing.
You knew what you were doing.
You know why would you do that,why would you attempt suicide?
You know, leave your familybehind.

(01:43:07):
But what people don't realizeis that people can either
attempt suicide or have suicidalideation and not even feel like
they're suicidal.
And a quick story of somethingthat happened to me that I was.
I was lucky enough to come homeand tell him about it because I
was too afraid to tell mydepartment.
That's why this is veryirrelevant to Camp Hero.
You know, if you're having, ifyou're going through things and

(01:43:29):
you don't want to tell certainpeople because you're afraid
they'll put you on, leave andtake your weapon.
But something that happened tome is I was put on Depakote for
migraines.
It's an anti-seizure medication.
And the doctor told me and toldhim you may start to have
suicidal ideation.
And I pushed it right in theback of my mind and whatever,
that's not going to happen to me.
And I remember going on a call,very specifically, it kind of

(01:43:51):
started building up.
I started thinking, man, I'vegot this gun on my side, it's
real easy to just pull it out.
And just how easy is it to pullthe trigger?
Well, that's a stupid thought.
Why would anybody ever do that?
I'm not suicidal and I didn'twant to kill myself.
We had our third baby at homeand she, you know, I mean I
honestly, genuinely, was in agood spot in my life, didn't

(01:44:14):
have anything going on negative,had nothing that would cause me
to not want to be here.
And little thoughts like thatwould pop up.
And I think every officerthinks that at some point, on
how close you are to a triggerof your weapon, at all points
Like what happens if youaccidentally pull the trigger or
whatever, all these sillythings go through your head.
But I started thinking thingslike that and I pushed it off

(01:44:38):
and pushed it off, and pushed itoff this is over, like a
three-day span and thinkingthings like that, and I pushed
it off and pushed it off, andpushed it off.
This is like a three-day spanand I will never forget I got.
I went to a call.
It was a motorist assist off ofexit 77 going northbound and I
pulled up behind what turned outto be a state trooper.
He was a retired state trooper.
He was in a red Mustang Again,all the details I'll never
forget.
It Got out, he had a flat tire.

(01:44:58):
He's like hey, can you just takeme back to my house and I'll
get my tools and bring it backand I'll fix it before the tow
truck will get here.
That's a win-win for anyofficer.
If I can get this done within15 minutes and go home, sweet.
Well, I'll take him home, bringhim back.
He's working on putting histire on.
I've got my cruiser park behindhim so that it's protecting him

(01:45:21):
and I'm watching for traffic.
And next thing, I know I'mtaking my little class A shoe
and I'm playing with the.
The white lines are actuallythicker in real life than what
they look like if you're driving.
Most people have not been on theinterstate, they don't know
that.
But I'm sitting there playingwith the white line on the road
and I'm playing with the ridges,just honestly, just somewhere
else in my mind and I think I'mgoing to step in front of this,
some of it's coming down theroad and it was a legitimate

(01:45:44):
thought and I'm like, well,that'd be stupid, but what if I
do?
Let's do it.
So I start to step over thatwhite line and whoever does not
believe in divine intervention,like if it's not your day
something came over me and waslike stop.
Like yelled it, not just, ohhey, you might not want to do
that.
My blood ran cold and I realizedwhat I'd done and I instantly

(01:46:05):
turned around.
I remember looking over at theguy who was working on his car
and I thought he's fixing to seeme just like get killed.
Didn't even think first offabout the family at home because
I was like, well, I would havenever done that in the first
place.
Turned around to get my cruiserand I called him and I was like
look, I literally almoststepped out in traffic.

(01:46:25):
He's like what happened?
Do you remember the phone call?

Speaker 5 (01:46:28):
Yeah, and I was like I mean, you know, why were you
thinking that?
And she was like I just don'tknow.
And I was like I mean are yougood?
I mean, is there something?
That's happened.
That's an underlying issue.
Have you been on a call latelythat you're having trouble
dealing with, just asking thenormal questions?
She's like it's nothing likethat.
I really can't explain to youwhy I did that and I'm like

(01:46:55):
maybe it's the medicine.
And again, it was one of thosethings that again, through God's
grace, I got lucky enough thatI had went to a course where
they focused on suicide andmental health and crisis, and it
was actually called CITTraining stands for the Crisis
Intervention Team, all class.

Speaker 2 (01:47:15):
Yeah, I've had it.
Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 5 (01:47:18):
It was awesome because you know, we at Richmond
nobody had went to that classyet and they were like you know,
we're going to send you all tothis and I was like great, you
know, I get to spend a weektalking about crazy people.
That's awesome, you know youknow how the mentality is.
Yeah.
And I was like you know?
No, you know, I'm only a SWAToperator.
I don't get to go to you knowshooting school or you know

(01:47:39):
anything cool.
I got to go to you know thecrazy.
You know the crazy, v course.
So I get there and they starttalking.
The first thing they did in thatclass was this lady stands up
and she's like she startstalking about this woman and
she's like you know, this womanhas a good life, she has awesome

(01:48:00):
family at home, she loves herjob.
But every night she came homeand I don't know if you are
familiar with, like the SmithWesson duty pistols, how the
safety in them works, that ifyou eject the magazine it makes
it to where you can't pull thetrigger.
It kills the connection, foryou know the break in the

(01:48:20):
trigger.
She would actually pull themagazine out of her pistol and
leave the round in the chamberand stick it in her mouth and
squeeze the trigger and praythat it malfunctioned.
And she was doing that dailyand she couldn't understand why.

(01:48:40):
And it sucks in the policingworld because we get so cold to
other people's emotions and youdeal with these people that
they're like okay, well, today'sTuesday, so I'm going to call
the police and tell them I'mabout to cut my wrist again.
They've already dealt with me72 times this, but you know,

(01:49:08):
let's see what 73 brings and youget so cut and you're like man,
just why do I have to deal withthis person every other day?
And it's the same crap.
Well then you talk to yourpartners and stuff about that
and you don't know what they'regoing through at home and you
say stupid stuff that you neverwould really think about.
Like I just wish that damnidiot would actually do it.
Yeah, yeah, I'm tired ofdealing with them.
They're stupid hollering ifthey want to kill theirself all
the time.
I just wish they'd do it.

(01:49:28):
Which?

Speaker 6 (01:49:29):
is nothing more than anger manifest in itself like a
control situation.

Speaker 5 (01:49:32):
Well then, you're like you never think about the
fact that your partner may begoing through stuff at home or
may have a chemical imbalance orsomething, and they're like,
okay, well, you know I was goingto talk to that person about.
You know, they're supposed tobe my partner, that's my brother
, it's the person I spend everyshift with.
But I mean, they just told methat they want that person to

(01:49:57):
kill herself and they're anidiot for feeling the way they
do.
So how are they going to judgeme?
I can't tell them about how Ifeel now.
And they started talking aboutstuff like that and I was like
man, like that's just, that'scrap.
Like how many times as anofficer have I said that?
Because you know I've dealtwith the person for the
hundredth time this year and youjust get tired of dealing with

(01:50:20):
them because they act stupidevery time you do.
And you're like man, how can,how can I share how I feel if my
partner feels that way aboutthat person and you get stuck in
this terrible loop.
You know that you have nosupport system.
Well, you know what they startedtalking about this woman and
how she was doing that everynight, and then they introduced
her and I I was like well, thatlady, I mean like you know, how

(01:50:40):
does this relate to me, you know?
Okay, well, this is a classwhere I'm supposed to learn to
deal with suicidal people andpeople that are in crisis.
And then she's like well, I'dlike to introduce you to this
lady.
This is Lieutenant PamOberhausen with the Louisville
Metro Police Department, and Iwas like what?
This lady's a lieutenant and sheused to do that every night and

(01:51:05):
it turns out to let everybodythat's listening to this know
she didn't have a bad life, butshe just had a legitimate
chemical imbalance in her brainand her body was having trouble
producing that particularchemical that would make her
have normal thoughts and anormal life, and it was
something that was completelyout of her control.
And she said you know, I neverfelt comfortable talking to my

(01:51:28):
people about it because that'show they acted towards all these
suicidal people, and you don'tfeel comfortable because you
feel like you don't have asupport system.
So I was stuck, stuck and shesaid you know, the more I
learned about it, I was likesomething's got to change.
And she said that sometimesit's not just that you're going
through a crisis or you'rehaving a bad time or you're
going through something in life,you just legitimately have

(01:51:50):
something wrong with you thatyour body doesn't produce that
happy chemical that you'resupposed to have.
Sometimes, man, it makes youwonder like, does our body
actually as police officers oras first responders?
Does it lose the ability toeven produce that chemical when
it's responsible to?

(01:52:10):
Because we numb ourselves tothings so much, because we go
from highs, lows, happy, sad,upbeat, downbeat, rapid response
and all up, you know, combatmindset to okay, well, I'm
supposed to go home and love mywife and kids and you go through
all of that within aneight-hour period, you know most

(01:52:31):
peopleyou know most people they go
through.
I think they said the averageand don't quote me on this, but
I know the numbers are closethrough.
I think they said the averageand don't quote me on this, but
I know the numbers are close.
Most people go through three tofour traumatic events in their
entire lifetime.

(01:52:51):
Police officers and firstresponders go through eight to
nine hundred in their entire oftimes.
What normal people go through?
And your, your body has a hardtime regulating, not only
physically but mentally, how torespond to certain things,

(01:53:11):
because half the time it doesn'tknow whether it's supposed to
be happy right now or sad, orall over the air and anxiety, or
fake and trying to put on aface or what it's supposed to be
happy, right now or sad or allover the air in anxiety or fake
and trying to put on a face orwhat you're supposed to do,
because you have to put on afront to be whatever you need to
be for that other person everytime you go to a new call.

Speaker 6 (01:53:33):
And that brings me to a point 8 to 900 in a career,
but what?
200 for an officer who's anofficer for five years roughly?
I mean, if you were to break itdown roughly.
So something I want to bring upCamp Hero is for current, former
and retired police and sorryfirst responders and military.
So even if you're a formerfirst responder, I've had my

(01:53:53):
fair share of chats with peoplewho I know have been through
traumatic events.
I was talking to one from.
He was a former.
He went through a verytraumatic event that
unfortunately ended his careerby the department.
He was not in the wrong.
I will say that, like it iswell known that that the
situation they just didn't backhim.
They did not back him.
I will not go any further intodetail.
I don't want to give away whoit is or what agency or anything

(01:54:15):
like that.
But or what agency or anythinglike that.
But I reached out to him and hesaid that's not for somebody
like me, that's for current,that's for military, for current
officers.
And I'm like, no, it's forformer.
You are dealing obviously withthat event because it gets
brought up every year, becauseit was.
I mean, it's an anniversary,you know.
So like that's something thatyou're dealing with.

(01:54:37):
But in so many people's headsthey're thinking, well, that's
not for me, Well, why isn't it?
You know, like we all gothrough stuff.
Even if you were an officer forfour or five years, you still
have well surpassed I'm sure youcould sit and tell me on at
least one hand, traumatic eventsyou've been through.
Why does that disqualify youfrom coming and shooting at the

(01:54:57):
range and hanging out?
Yeah why does that disqualifyyou from coming and shooting at
the range and hanging out?
Yeah, you know.
And if you feel like it's notyou don't know if it's for you
or not and you just want to helpvolunteer, I mean, you know
there's on campherokyorg.
You can go on and fill out a.
There's a registration form onthere and it's for military.
There's a form for military,there's a form for first
responders, there's a form forvolunteers, a form if you want

(01:55:23):
to donate, like if you're abigger entity, I think you want
to donate.
Don't quote me on that.
There's a tab at the bottom.
You can donate with PayPal.
You can buy t-shirts on there,like if you, if you're just a
hat guy, they got hats and cupsand there's so many different
ways to get involved.
But if you don't know, there'sa thing on there that says ask
Rocco.
Just hit the ask Rocco and sendhim an email.
Be like look, I'm not for sureif I qualify.
I was in the academy for Idon't know for eight weeks and
then something happened and thenI don't know, just ask Rocco.

(01:55:44):
That's kind of like the I guess, the biggest point that I want
to make there, because so manyof us think that, well, that's
not for me, but yeah, and againwith what she's saying, man.

Speaker 5 (01:55:54):
So Rocco is really different in the aspect that and
it's something that I reallyrespect him for.
When you talk to Rocco, I don'tcare if it's the first time or
the thousandth time.
He is always the same genuineperson that you feel like you've
known your whole life.
And he's not so many injuriesthat he has a pain pump that's

(01:56:22):
permanently installed in hisback that keeps his pain at
certain levels.
And sometimes, because of hisspinal injuries and things that
happened to him when he was acop and his injury, he'll
completely lose all function inhis legs Like they'll just go
numb, and he's paralyzed, 100%paralyzed, wow, and he has to

(01:56:44):
slowly, through physical therapy, gain strength back in his legs
.
Well, that happened to him lastyear and all of a sudden he
calls me and I'm like hey, dude,what's up you doing?
Okay?
He's like no, I'm in hospital.
And I'm like, okay, are yougood?
He goes, he goes, no, I can'tuse my legs.
And I'm like rocco, that's notlike, that's not the way, you
have a normal conversation.

(01:57:05):
He's like well, dude, it happensso often, like I mean, I know
that me and you ain't talkedabout it, but you know this has
happened to me before and it'sjust yeah, this is my life.

Speaker 4 (01:57:13):
And he told that story to us yeah it's his story.
I would never take it, but I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:57:18):
I was like wow, yeah, um, yeah, yeah so I mean you
know the fact that he wasdealing with that lady and she
ran him over and broke his spineyeah, he's pretty open about it
he tells about all that stuffand how camp hero came to be.
Because you know, when he lost,when he got medically retired
out of the Navy for the injurythat he had that almost killed

(01:57:39):
him, he lost like nine feet ofhis small intestine because he
had a spike go into his abdomenand the only reason it didn't
rip all the way up his body wasbecause his armor stopped it and
he fell back onto their vehicleand they evac'd him and they
ended up sending him intosurgery and he lost part of his

(01:58:00):
intestine.
Still has a huge scar on hisabdomen.
Well then, when they medicallyretired him, you know he was
like well, I still want to servepeople.
So he goes into the policedepartment and works for
Shepherdsville Police for, Ithink, like nine years or
something like that I can'tremember the exact number my
numbers get to me like thissometimes but I think it was

(01:58:21):
nine years and was on a trafficstop and this lady took off and
ran over him and broke his spine, wow.
Well then you know he goesthrough all of that, and I mean
the dude's like I said, didn'the hurt?

Speaker 4 (01:58:35):
He didn't know he was hurt that bad at first.
No, he jumped up and startedchasing her down the road.

Speaker 5 (01:58:40):
Yeah, yeah, he starts chasing her down the road and
then he's like I thinksomething's wrong and he radios
her.
He's like, hey, I'm going tosignal late this and I'm going
to go to the hospital.
And goes to the hospital andhe's got a broken spine, wow.
And so he goes through all this.
Well then they medically retirehim again.

(01:59:02):
Well then he feels like youknow, hey, I've lost my purpose,
like I like serving people andnow I can't do that anymore.
And because of that he startedfeeling depressed and he was
like you know, I don't have mypurpose anymore and I can't find
a new one.
And I think I'm just going tosay to hell with it and I'm just
going to off myself.
And Rocco will tell you.
You know what he's, he's 100percent open about it.

(01:59:25):
And you know I can.
He now he can tell thesestories like I'm talking to you
right now.
Every time I would tell it I'dstart tearing up, I'd get choked
up, couldn't talk.
You know I'd cry.
And you know I told you all mystory earlier and you hear how
much more confident I am in it,that I can actually talk to

(01:59:47):
people and help them throughthings, and that's through camp.
But Rocco started noticing thathe was having these ideations
and apparently it got so badthat he was actually Googling
ways to kill himself and make itlook like an accident so that
his family would get hisinsurance money.
And he realized, like you know,something's wrong.
I need to find help.
Well, he started trying to findhelp and couldn't find anything

(02:00:09):
.
And he was like you know, I'vehelped all these people in my
life, I've done all these thingsto serve, and now nothing's
here to serve me when I needhelp.
And he was like you know,something's got to change.
So he bought the property inMcKee.
It's 165 acres, I think Don'tquote me on that exact number,

(02:00:29):
but somewhere around 150,160-inch.
He bought it sight unseen andagain, god working the way he
does, this lady had this placefor sale and her son was a
former military vet.
And he told this lady what hisintention for the camp was and
she was asking $250,000 for thisproperty.

(02:00:51):
And he's like well, I'm buyingit and I'm not even going to lay
eyes on it, but I'm going tosend you an offer, please don't
get upset with me.
So he sends in I want to give$200 for the property.
It's a $50,000 cut, like mostpeople would be like no, you can
kick rocks somewhere, we ain'tdoing that.
He tells this lady what happens.

(02:01:23):
She's like my son's a militaryvet, so I'm going to call you
back with a counter offer, butI'm not going to beat you up too
bad.
She calls Rocco back and offershim that she'll take the deal
for $201,000.
So Rocco buys the propertysight unseen, figures out that
it's got this cabin on it thatalready has some housing
requirements with it.
It has two campsites thatalready have septic and
everything hooked up there.
It has multiple caves on theproperty to go explore, one of

(02:01:44):
which is a bat sanctuary.
It's got natural springs on itand it's got this place down at
the creek.

Speaker 6 (02:01:50):
That man I mean when you go there, it's almost like
you're, it's almost like God putit there for therapy.

Speaker 5 (02:01:56):
Yeah, it's like you're not even on earth anymore
because it's so peaceful downthere.
Everything else just fades awayfor a while and you can truly
be at peace.
And you know it's.
You know the tattoo I've got onmy arm, the whole warrior in
the garden concept.
You know it's that sense ofbeing able to just go somewhere

(02:02:17):
and finally find peace and trulybe able to let go of all those
things that have built up overthe years and the things that
you have rolling around in theback of your head that you think
nobody gives a crap about.
And then you meet a bunch ofother dudes that you realize
they've been there, they knowwhat you're going through and

(02:02:39):
they actually give a crap.
And that's what rocco's wholemission is is you know other
heroes helping other heroes heal, and you know I was.
I had that mentality when Istarted there of like you know,
I don't, I don't need that, Igot my stuff under control, I'm
good.
And then I was like, well, Imean, it's a cool idea, like

(02:03:00):
maybe I can volunteer.
But it's funny how you knowpeople like us we want to serve,
and then you find out thatthrough serving these other
people you've in turn helpedyourself and I can't tell you
all, within the past year ofvolunteering at camp, how much
my mentality has changed, howmuch I've actually stopped

(02:03:22):
spending time trying to findways to get away from the
thoughts by you know playingsome shooter video game or you
know doing this, that and theother with this person, or
trying to over occupy myselfwith tasks and work and things
like that to I can actually stopthe thoughts and realize my
girls are here, I want to spendtime with them.

(02:03:43):
I want them to know that theydidn't just have a officer or a
cop or a construction worker asa dad.
They have a father, a dad,someone that cares about them,
that's there for them, thatactually wants to serve them and
teach them how to attack theworld when it comes at them

(02:04:04):
because it's going to.

Speaker 6 (02:04:05):
Because you have to prepare yourself.
You have to be prepared toteach your kids and other people
around you like be a good rolemodel.
If you're not in a good stateof mind yourself, you're not
going to be a very good rolemodel period.
Like I was saying before, withthe medicine that I was on, that
put me in a bad spot.
But I think that God allowedthat to happen to me so that I

(02:04:29):
could understand suicidal.
I worked with juveniles.
The very first case I took Iwas destined to work with kids.
The very first case I took Iwas destined to work with kids.
The very first case I took itwas an awful, awful case.
It was 312 counts of sex crimesI'll just say that on a
juvenile and that kind of dumpedme into juvenile crime with

(02:04:53):
kids and that hits home.
A whole lot different wheneveryou work with kids than it does
if you're just.
You know and I'm not sayinganything against it they all
have their own factors.
They all have their own stresslevels that you deal with.
But I think that I went throughthat suicidal ideation
timeframe to help me tounderstand how impulsive that

(02:05:14):
can be for people.
Of course, like I said, I meanI didn't.
I came off the medicine andI've not had that issue since
that medicine.
Apparently I was just.
I had a really bad reaction toit.

Speaker 5 (02:05:23):
It caused a chemical imbalance.

Speaker 6 (02:05:24):
It caused a severe chemical imbalance.
I mean, like I said, to thepoint where I didn't even know I
was about to walk in trafficuntil I was, and then I realized
what I was doing and then itwas almost too late.
But but things happen for areason, because I can tell that
story, and you'd be surprisedhow many other people were like
wait, maybe that's what's wrongwith me.
And then they go to the doctor,they get their blood drawn.

Speaker 5 (02:05:50):
They figure out that their medicine there's like good
medicine, bad medicine and iffymedicine.
Do not touch that yeah.

Speaker 4 (02:05:53):
So you can have a DNA test right now.
Good medicine doesn't alwaysoutweigh the bad part of what it
is.

Speaker 6 (02:05:59):
That's very true and you know, and thankfully, like
that gave me the insight to beable to work with these kids who
are suicidal.
Like okay, why are you suicidal?
Is it just because you're beingimpulsive and you're being
emotionally out of control rightnow?
Is it because you're trying toget attention?
Or is it because you have achemical imbalance?
Or because life is actuallythat bad and you actually want
to end it?
Like it helped to be able tonavigate.
And how many times did I go inat work at 8 o'clock in the

(02:06:21):
morning Well before 8, workingin the schools, and I didn't get
home until 2 or 3 o'clock inthe morning because I was in the
hospital with suicidal kids.
Yeah, many, many times.
But that helped me.
So I think God puts us inplaces and we go through stuff

(02:06:42):
to.

Speaker 2 (02:06:42):
we go through stuff to be able to prepare us to help
our fellow brothers and sistersout.

Speaker 6 (02:06:44):
So but camp, I mean I didn't.
I couldn't tell my fellowofficers.
There's no way.
If I had of, then what wouldthat have done to my career?
If I had said oh hey, by theway, I just about walked right
out and in my uniform, I wouldhave been done for I.
They would have taken me offthe streets and I didn't been in
a desk job and they would havetried to paint me as that would
have been a career ender, but itwas just a pill that I had to

(02:07:04):
stop taking every day.
That was it.
But with camp we have had somany people shut down our job
sites on accident without evenknowing it, and I would not have
it any other way.

Speaker 5 (02:07:14):
No, they would call and we'll talk to them because
they are having negativethoughts yeah, they'll call me
in the middle of work and I'lllook at her and be like at we're
, we're done for a minute likeat no more boards, no more
drywall, no more screws, likethis dude needs help or this
girl needs help and we're gonnatalk to him absolutely, you know

(02:07:37):
it may be something small, likeyou know, one dude called us
because he had found himself insome trouble at work because one
of his fellow coworkers he wasthe manager and one of the
fellow coworkers tried toblackmail him into a bunch of
bull crap and he called them ontheir crap.
And then the admin hadn't donethe full investigation yet.
They thought that he was atfault and he was like you know
what do I do?
And I was like you know what doI do?
And I was like look, dude,these are the steps you need to

(02:07:58):
go through.
These are some resources thatyou can get it's not over.
It's not over with yet don'tgive up, we're gonna fight this
and I'm gonna send you a bunchof krs on the sidelines here
that'll help you to fight thisproblem.
So I sent him like 30 krs'sthat had to do with you know
what they could charge this kidwith for blackmail, for
extortion, all this other crap.
Assault was dealt into it, allthis stuff and he was like dude.

(02:08:21):
Thank you so much for justgiving me the ammo to go at
these people.
And I was like, yeah, man, likethat's what it's about is just
helping each other out.
And it's crazy because you getso caught up in your own head
sometimes that the things I'veseen, the things I've seen, the
things I've dealt with, thethings I've felt is so hard.
And then you get a phone callfrom a dude that's 6'5", that

(02:08:46):
weighs 340, and he's a brick ofa man and he's covered in
tattoos.
He's a legitimate badass andhe's like man, I'm having a hard
time and the dude just breaks.
Yeah, it's because he canactually feel comfortable with
being vulnerable and not beingthe badass around you and
actually tell you how he'sfeeling, knowing that you

(02:09:09):
understand and you're not goingto judge him, you know, and
that's.
That's a different level oftrust and brotherhood that you
can't find in most places, butit's something that I have found
at camp and many others have to.

Speaker 4 (02:09:23):
That's good to know, I'll say this because and we've
talked about this on our podcastbefore the veterans seem like
you know I was in the Marinesfor four years but they had exit
stuff, tap classes that you goand do all these little things
to see what you're good at.

(02:09:44):
If you're getting out, theyhave.
You got veteran service stuff.
I'm not always saying they'rethe greatest and everything, but
there's a service that you canuse.
You know the VA and things,housing loans and things like
that that they provide thesefour-year guys like me.
That's opportunities for whenyou transition out 20-year cops,

(02:10:07):
five-year cops.
There is no transition, nothing.
You go into it.
You've lived this life, you'vedone these things.
You've seen these things?
you've served, you've you'vedeployed, I've deployed with the
national guard during, you know, guard at the beginning of

(02:10:28):
after 9-11.
All this buildup, all thistraining, you go, you come back,
you do your debriefs, you doyour final medical, you go back,
then you have drill or whatever.
This is when I was in the Guard, but it was a long deployment.
You were gone, come back, youprocess out, do your after

(02:10:51):
action, stuff like that, cleanyour vehicle, all that stuff
Comes a point.
Doug and I both know you spendthis much time, you retire and
then you're like now.

Speaker 5 (02:11:04):
I'm supposed to be a civilian again, retire.
And then you're like, hmm, nowI'm supposed to be a civilian
again.

Speaker 3 (02:11:08):
Yeah, how do you?
There's certain things youcannot turn off.

Speaker 4 (02:11:10):
It's a horrible transition, mm-hmm, you know,
and they Four-year, becauseyou've seen stuff as four and
five years.
You see stuff at 10-year andthen you've seen things at 20,
25.
I don't know how many years youdid.
It's 100.
27 years and you're just notprepared mentally to call it

(02:11:40):
quits all the time.
Yeah, I mean there's a time andI'm nearing that time I'm still,
you know, I'm back doing SROwork, but I don't feel like it's
.
It's a transition now and it'sI'm getting closer to that Like,
okay, I'm ready.
You know, I'm still going towork, I'm still going to do
things like that.

Speaker 6 (02:11:56):
But you can't go work a nine-to-five though not a
regular one, not with the loopand it messes with you because
military first responders you'reso used to up and down, up and
down, up and down and nothingever stays the same, that if you
go to a nine-to-five you'd pullyour hair out and probably be
in the mental hospital for realwithin within three weeks but
sounds like, sounds like camp isa way to transition to and have

(02:12:19):
, like you know, like-mindedyeah folks.

Speaker 4 (02:12:23):
Yeah, that you can talk to and get when you're you
know, have that support andsomebody to call and talk to.

Speaker 6 (02:12:32):
We've had people from correct me if I'm wrong.
Was it Chicago PD a littlewhile back that was down there?
Yeah, there's badges inside thecabin from everyone who's been?
And they're literally from allover the country, Like you think
, oh well, it's all overKentucky.
It's not Like we've met somereally, really cool people.

Speaker 4 (02:12:50):
How does the outreach as far as that goes?
How does that process work?
As far as getting that word out, is it just like doing a
podcast, or how do you all dothat?

Speaker 5 (02:12:59):
So we have all kinds of things, man, I will say that
rocco does a phenomenal job.
The man is on top of him being,you know, kind of like the big
brother to everybody.
Rocco is an absolute workhorsewhen it comes to this particular
mission that he has.
Not only the fact that rocco,you know, has probably 50 other

(02:13:23):
missions that he's constantlychasing, but he still finds time
to go.
Right now we're raffling off aHarley Davidson motorcycle that
we got from Harley.
He's using that and doingpodcasts with them for Camp Hero
to do outreach.
He was just on Fox 56 News.
We deal with church groups,less fortunate kids and things

(02:13:48):
like that that we do outreachwith.

Speaker 6 (02:13:50):
Word of mouth through first responders goes a long
way.

Speaker 5 (02:13:52):
Word of mouth through other first responders Big time
the word of mouth.
Yes, yes, it is for other firstresponders to hear these
messages and to listen to thesepodcasts and talk to other
people that have been to campabout their experience, because
we've had guys come out there.
That's just like I'm not evengoing to talk to anyone there.

(02:14:14):
I don't want anything to dowith this place.
I'm going because my wife hastold me she's going to divorce
me if I don't go.
And then the next thing, youknow like this dude is cutting
up and cracking jokes andtelling stories and he's like
man.
Why does this place feel so muchlike home?
And yeah, it's weird becauseeven last night and I could show

(02:14:37):
it to you on my phone Imessaged Rocco last night.
Now I've been with camp forover a year.
Messaged Rocco last night nowI've been with camp for over a
year.
I messaged Rocco last nightbecause I was talking to my
daughter, adeline, and we weretalking about camp and she's
eight and she looks at me andshe goes are we going to go to
camp?
So I was like, yeah, we can goto camp.
She's like I love camp, hero.

(02:14:57):
She's like it's just, I feelsafe there and it she kind of
paused and she goes.
It just really feels like home.
So I sent Rocco theconversation that me and her had
had and I was like thanks forthat.
Even my kids feel like camp ishome to them and Rocco does an

(02:15:18):
amazing job at reaching out tonot just the guys that need help
but he's open to them, bringingtheir families, their kids,
their wives, their friends.
You know, bring your peoplewith you to help you heal and to
help them learn to heal withyou, because a lot of people
don't understand that it's notjust your fight.

(02:15:40):
You know I'm fighting thesedemons at home and you know,
luckily, my wife you know Amandahere.
She understands because she wasa first responder too.
But if your wife has worked ina clothing shop or has worked as
a vet her whole life or youknow some other profession, it's
hard to make them understand.
They have no clue, yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:15:59):
And it's not fair to expect them to.
No.
Like they chose you, knowingyou're a first responder, they
didn't choose to be a firstresponder.

Speaker 4 (02:16:08):
Yeah, I wasn't.
Well, I was a moron.
Right.
But I was out of that and thenwent into it.
I chose it.
Married to her and then shewent through that 20 years with
me, Right.
She retired with me.
She served two.
I can guarantee it.

Speaker 6 (02:16:26):
You know, had her late nights of staying up and
worrying.

Speaker 4 (02:16:28):
Oh, I couldn't even imagine what I put her through
through accidental calls when Iwas fist fighting somebody on
the side of the road that got.
I was getting ready to call.
I mean, and she's calling, likewhat is going on?

Speaker 6 (02:16:45):
We were lucky with that aspect because we both like
I knew what it was like and heknew what it was like to be like
.
We didn't worry as much, but hedid get called to court one day
because they called him tocourt when he was with another
department.
They seen a subpoena forOfficer Madden.

Speaker 5 (02:17:01):
So I went to court because we were both Officer
Madden and then they was like sowhen did he pull the gun on you
?
And I was like what Wait?
What they was like?
Well, tell us when this guypulled the gun and I was like
ain't, nobody pulled a gun on me.
I shot him.

Speaker 3 (02:17:19):
I didn't know any of the details and I was sitting
there like they go, never mind,yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:17:24):
And they're like they pulled it back.
They're like do you have that?

Speaker 5 (02:17:26):
report and I'm like reading it, just infuriated.

Speaker 6 (02:17:30):
And they're like no, never mind.

Speaker 5 (02:17:32):
She didn't tell me about this one and I'm like this
is a little good on my wife andI'm pissed You're about to go
after it.

Speaker 6 (02:17:44):
And, and of course you know the county attorney,
she's like just let me have thatback real quick.

Speaker 1 (02:17:45):
He's like no, you gotta call me, you don't give it
to me, so then I call her, Istep in.

Speaker 5 (02:17:49):
I'm on the point of who didn't you tell me somebody
tried to pull a gun.

Speaker 6 (02:17:53):
I said Steven, I pulled my gun on him.
He almost got to the gun.
He attempted to pull the gun.
The citation says he's likeyeah, it does say that, but but
you didn't tell me he said but,you didn't shoot.
I said he didn't pull the gun.
So here we are, over there yeah, that's what you said you
didn't tell me but man, you knowwhat.

Speaker 5 (02:18:12):
So we tell that story and just now everybody around
the table here, you know allfive of us were laughing and
cutting up about it.
That's our humor and mostpeople that live a civilian life
.
So we talked about this storyon the way here.
They most people don'tunderstand this, but I already
know the outcome.
I'm gonna get out of you all.
I went to a call one morningit's like 5 30 in the morning

(02:18:33):
and this dude has overdosed forthe hundredth time we go in and
he slumped up against the wallin a chair barely breathing.
Me and Officer Martinez walk inand you have to know, martinez,
he's this little Mexican guythat's like 5'4" and.
Martinez is one of those dudesthat he always has this serious

(02:18:54):
face.
But if you'll actually payattention and listen to him, he
cracks one-liners constantly andflies them under the radar.
So if you'll actually listen tohim, he'll keep you giggling all
day long, but you never know itbecause a lot of people just
ignore him because he looks soserious all the time.
So I look at Martinez and I'mlike dude, are we really dealing

(02:19:16):
with this at 530 in the morning?
And he's like man, let's justget this over with.
We look and here comes redlights rolling up right outside
the door.
The ambulance is there.
So I look at Martinez and I'mlike all right, dude, let's just
go ahead and get him in thefloor so EMS can start work.
As soon as they walk throughthe door, he's like all right,
cool.
I'm like, well, you want handsor you want feet?
He's like dude, I'll take feet.

(02:19:44):
I'm like all right, cool.
So I grab this dude by his armsand I'm like all right, ready.
One, two, three and we jerk himout of this chair and this
dude's leg pops off inMartinez's hand.
So it scares the hell out of himbecause here he's got this
dude's body weight still in onehand and he's holding a random

(02:20:07):
leg in the other and he's likeholy shit.
So he's like what is?
Happening, so he drops thedude's leg because it scared him
while the other leg catchesMartinez's bill, pops it open,
his mag pouch goes flying acrossthe room.
That's hilarious.
I'm dying laughing at thispoint to the point that I can't
even hold myself up, so I dropthe dude.

Speaker 1 (02:20:30):
Well then, his head's like on the freaking floor and
his mom's like what are youdoing to my baby?

Speaker 5 (02:20:37):
We're like what the hell is going on and Martina's
like man, I'm so sorry I'mfalling apart over here and I'm
cracking up I'm doing this inthe most unprofessional way
because I couldn't help it.
It was hilarious to watch hisface do that.
We had no idea that this guyhad a prosthetic leg right.
So when martin has lifted himand jerked out of the chair, it

(02:20:59):
popped it off and here he coming, his hand.
He thought I just ripped hisdude's leg off.
I tell that story in here.
We all laugh and cut up aboutit.
You tell that story out here toa bunch of civilians and they
look at you like what the hellis wrong with you.

Speaker 2 (02:21:16):
That's not funny.

Speaker 6 (02:21:17):
That's not funny at all that dude was almost dead
and you are giggling about whathappened.

Speaker 5 (02:21:22):
That's not funny.
He survived, but you know yougo to camp man and you tell
these stories and you're able toshare your experiences and
things that you've been throughwith a bunch of people that have
been there like you have.
And that story is hilarious tome yes.
So you know, it's a lot betterbeing able to go to Camp Hero
and sit down with people thathave shared your experiences and

(02:21:45):
know your mindset.
They've been through similarthings that you have and you can
truly connect with these guysand these other girls, you don't
have to be a fake you.
You can be a true you andactually realize hey, I don't
have to be this strong personthat can't be harmed.

(02:22:09):
I can actually be a human beingand be vulnerable and ask for
help.
And that's something that'shard for people like us is to
actually stop and ask for help.
But you can do that.

Speaker 6 (02:22:20):
Speaking of vulnerable, one last story.
You got the hand on that I knowshe.

Speaker 4 (02:22:22):
Speaking of vulnerable, one last story.
You got the hand on the no.
No, she told me, shut up.

Speaker 6 (02:22:26):
One last story.
We'll call the guy Pete.

Speaker 5 (02:22:30):
The mannequin story Again.
People just don't understandthe highs and lows and the ups
and downs and things.
Right before I made EORU I wentand another guy that I had been
patrolling with.
He came from Tennessee at adepartment I'm just going to
call him P.
Me and P get a call thatthere's an open door at this

(02:22:53):
house and we get there and arealtor is waiting on us.
He's already made the team andI'm all happy for him because
you know we were both going totry out at the same time but
they had not lifted thatthree-year restriction yet and
where he had prior time onanother department, they
transferred that time over forhim.
Okay, so I had more time onRichmond than him, but I didn't

(02:23:15):
have more policing time overallbecause they wouldn't recognize
my corrections if my correctionsexperience into the policing.
Okay, so me and Pete get thereand we talk to this realtor and
we're like all right, you knowwe're all serious because we're
about to go clear a structureand you know he's on ERU.
I want to be ERU.
We're going to take this asserious as possible.

(02:23:39):
Everybody makes mistakes.
I'll say that now we talked tothis realtor.
She's like the house iscompletely empty.
There's nothing inside.
More than likely, somebody thatwas showing the house yesterday
left the door unlocked and it'sjust open.
I was like okay, cool.
And I was like there's nothingin the house.
She's like no, it's completelyempty, 100% empty.

(02:23:59):
So me and P go inside, we startclearing the upper structure.
Me trying to be, you know, thebest possible tactical prospect
for the team that I can be.
I'm digging my corners, gettingout of doorways, I'm doing all
the fundamentals of CQBfollowing the threat stack
priorities.

Speaker 4 (02:24:19):
I'm doing everything that I can do.

Speaker 5 (02:24:20):
I can see everything you're doing, yeah, so I look
down through a metal grate andI'm like, hey, we got a basement
.
So he's like, how do you know?
I'm like because I can see thelower floor through the grate.
And he's like, all right, cool.
So we clear the upper structure, we come to the stairs.
For anybody that doesn't know,CQB stairs are an absolute
tactical nightmare.
No, matter what I'm like, theonly good thing you have is

(02:24:41):
either back out and come aroundand breach the back door and
come in to go completely aroundthe stairs, or eat it and say
hurry up and go down.
So why hurry up and go downthese steps?
Well, at the very end of thesteps, slightly offset, there's
this green door.
That's a steel door that hassteel mesh over top of the glass

(02:25:02):
that's on it and a bright brassdoor knob.
So you see a steel door withsteel mesh over top of it that
daylight's coming into it.
You're like cool back door,that's what any you know normal
person would probably think.
They had the steel mesh overthe wire or over the glass.
Because you don't wantintruders being able to come
through this door.
You want to make it as hard onthem to break in as humanly

(02:25:24):
possible.
So we were like, okay, that'sthe back door, we bypass it, go
through, clear the rest of thisstructure and we start back up
the steps and we're like, hey,man, you know, that was pretty
clean, we did a good job.
And I look back at this greendoor and I'm like that door

(02:25:45):
ain't got no lock on it.
And I got to looking and I waslike no, exterior door does not
have a lock.
That's not the back door.
So I looked in.
He's like because you couldbarely see through the glass.
You could see daylight, but youcould barely see through it
because, and again I was like,okay, well, that's done on
purpose, they don't want peopleseeing into their home.
So I reach and grab the doorknob, pop the door open and it dumps

(02:26:07):
into two more rooms, one goingleft of the doorway, one going
right.
So I'm like okay, well, youknow, it opens up into two
separate rooms and they're bothright in this doorway, like
somebody's going to have to eatthis door and clear for this
person to show clear on thisroom.
So I look at P?
P and I'm like you want left oryou want right?
He's like well, I'll plate thedoor, I'll eat it.

(02:26:28):
I'm like all right, cool.
So we stack up.
I reach and I put my left handup on his shoulder because I'm a
right-handed shooter and I'vegot my pistol up at the high
ready, oh yeah.
And I'm like, yeah, and I'mlike man, I'm ready, like we're,
we're through here.
So he starts to round thecorner and I start to dump right
and when I do, he locks up inhis tracks and I feel his whole

(02:26:52):
body just tremble and I'll neverforget the noise.
He goes ooh and I was like whatthe?
So?
He shook so hard that I waslike he's dealing with someone.
So I come over his shoulderwith my pistol because again he
locked Like it scared the crapout of him.
I come over his shoulder and Isee this like 6'9 dark figure

(02:27:17):
with a scythe mid-swing and Iwas like oh shh.
And I took the slack out of mytrigger like I was about to
break the shot and my flashlighthit this thing's face.
It was a grim reaper, halloweenman, oh my gosh.

Speaker 4 (02:27:33):
I almost shot you you should have shot it anyway.

Speaker 5 (02:27:37):
So again, man, like you talk about everybody's
laughing yeah but, other peoplewould be like that was good crap
but that's not fun but you talkabout like how your emotions do
so many things in firstresponse, in military, and it's
constant ups and downs and youhave a hard time dealing with it
.
Like you know, we were feelinggreat about ourself.
We were serious and clear inthe structure, felt great that

(02:27:59):
we did a good job, realized ohshit, we messed up on this door.

Speaker 6 (02:28:03):
And then we're like, oh my God, we've got to kill
this thing because it's tryingto kill us with a saw His body
almost died three times and yougo from nearly crapping your
pants and shooting a mannequinto.

Speaker 5 (02:28:12):
That was freaking hilarious.

Speaker 6 (02:28:14):
You squirreled like a girl when you saw that, did you
pee a little?
I'm pretty sure you peed alittle, so of course then I had
to do.
I mean I would have felt likeit would have been.

Speaker 2 (02:28:23):
We know you would have Afterwards.

Speaker 5 (02:28:26):
I had to do what any responsible, respecting officer
that's, a professional would do,and I had to drive straight
back to the police departmentand make fun of Pete ten times
while we're playing the video onmy body cam over and over and
over again to the point that hegot pissed and left.
It was something that to thisday I can still bring it up and

(02:28:49):
he kind of giggles.
He's like man, that wasn'tfunny.
No, that was hilarious, that'sawesome, we've had them.
I mean, you deal with this?

Speaker 6 (02:29:03):
Every officer has a mirror story.

Speaker 1 (02:29:04):
Mirrors.
Yeah, there's a cop in theairport.
Every officer has a mirrorstory.

Speaker 2 (02:29:06):
He's awful ugly.

Speaker 4 (02:29:07):
Don't do a tactical dealing Sam.
She'll probably get scared.

Speaker 5 (02:29:10):
Or you know you pop a random door and somebody's cat
comes hauling ass out of it andscares the crap out of you and
then you have to explain almostshot your cat, yeah.
But you know you deal with allthese ups and downs and your
body almost forgets how toself-regulate.
And camp reminds you that youhave a place and a support

(02:29:33):
system and a brotherhood thatyou can go to and genuinely find
peace.
Not act like it, not hope forit, but genuinely find peace.

Speaker 6 (02:29:44):
And not get a phone call back to your department or
your superiors and say, hey,this is what we talked about or
this is, it's all confidential.
It should be.

Speaker 4 (02:29:53):
Yes, what stays can't be real.
What stayed can't be real.
It stays real.
Well, I'm excited to go.
I don't know if I need tovolunteer or just go be part of
it first and see what goes.

Speaker 5 (02:30:05):
Yeah, come and hang out with us any time.
Like I said, you know we do allthat stuff.
Rocco actually just handed somemoney to me, and Jonathan, the
guy that I met at the 511 store.
He was like hey, we've beenlooking at building a range.
Would you two want to build?

Speaker 1 (02:30:19):
one and we were like yeah, and he didn't give us any
stipulations or anything.

Speaker 5 (02:30:28):
He's just like somewhere over there and went
and rented us two big skidsteers and we just went to town.
He was like I don't care whatyou do, just make it cool.

Speaker 6 (02:30:32):
I trust you, all your range people, you do you and
dude, we built a range like anice one if you're handicapped,
if you don't have legs, if youare missing an arm, doesn't
matter, we'veby-sides that canget you down there.
We can get your chair out andset you in it.
You can get yourself out andset you in it if you're more
independent.
Yeah, I mean, it's literallyfor everyone, we can get you out

(02:30:54):
and let you shoot.

Speaker 4 (02:30:56):
Yeah, when's camp.
How many do they do?
How often do you?

Speaker 6 (02:31:04):
actually meet or get together.
The best thing to do is look onFacebook I think Camp Hero
Kentucky's Facebook page,because they do the nature
immersion courses right.

Speaker 5 (02:31:12):
Yeah, we do them about every other month and it's
different things from land navsurvival, man tracking, animal
tracking, just different things.
You can sign up for Craig'sSEER courses and stuff like that
.
I mean, man, it's just anawesome opportunity.
And you're not just dealing withpeople that you know.

(02:31:33):
Just walk in like, hey, youknow well, I know what a
dandelion is.
Or you know well, I mean I shotgranddaddy's 12-gauge, you know
when I was 12, so I can teachyou to shoot.
You know, you know when I was12.
So I can teach you to shoot.
You know what Me?
I run the range there most ofthe time but I have a lot of
firearms experience and a lot oftactical experience.
You know, craig runs the natureimmersion program, but the man

(02:31:54):
is a world renowned naturalistand survivalist and he's like an
encyclopedia on survival holdsno bounds to this guy.
He's a freak when it comes toknowing what he knows.
So I mean it's you get allthese opportunities dude it is.
I mean, it's a blast.
You get all these opportunitiesopened up to you and you get

(02:32:15):
the ability to heal and itdoesn't cost you anything.
That's awesome and even if youcall rocco and you're like, hey,
I know we don't have anythinggoing on at camp today, but dude
, I dude, I'm just kind of pentup Like can I just go chill at
camp?
He's like yeah sure, here's thecodes to everything.
Go, get the side-by-side ridearound for a while, take it down
to the creek, chill out BS,clear your mind and stay as long

(02:32:37):
as you want.
There's food in the fridge,there's water in the fridge.
You're welcome to anything.
You can sleep there likethere's been.
Dudes show up and stay forthree, four, five days just to
get crap off their mind, andRocco's never like well, you owe
the energy bill or you have topay for the food you use.
He's just like hey, do me afavor, let me know what we need
down there.
If we need some water, I'llbring you some like, if you need

(02:32:59):
food, I'll bring you some.

Speaker 6 (02:33:00):
You know, you hear of these non-, these nonprofits
that you donate to and you findout that they're actually
profiting out the rear end offof it.
That is not the case Like wecan honestly say.
That is not the case with this.
I have seen a pair of thesetalking about Rocco giving money
for the range turn right aroundand well, I mean we had how
many people go down there andshoot?
Like it opened up the door fora new form of therapy for people

(02:33:23):
and it was pennies on thedollar for what you would have
gotten it for anywhere else.
And it all goes for a very,very good purpose.
But I mean it's so important Ifyou want to give and donate
like I was saying earlier, get ahat or something or donate you
can do a monthly through PayPalor whatever.
But if you want your dollars toactually go towards something

(02:33:44):
that actually does help people,like you can really just show up
and watch things unfold.
You know, like you can see thechanges that it makes in
people's lives.
So, given a little bit of money, it actually feeds veterans and
first responders.
You know it feeds them lunch orprovides a camper for them to
stay in, or a fishing course, oryou know stuff that actually

(02:34:08):
does something if you want yourdollars to go to something
something that's going toactually help somebody and
actually matter, make adifference to them and their
families but yeah camp herokentucky just type that in on
facebook and you can find it.
Or camp hero kyorg is thewebsite.
Just browse around on both ofthose and get to know it a
little bit better.

(02:34:28):
I hope to see you all at thebenefit, because it really is a
good time.

Speaker 5 (02:34:33):
Yeah, it's a blast.

Speaker 6 (02:34:35):
You won't hear me saying $100 a ticket is worth it
for almost anything, it is for.

Speaker 2 (02:34:39):
Camphor yeah, it is for that, that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (02:34:43):
This has been so much fun, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:34:47):
I thoroughly enjoyed myself.

Speaker 4 (02:34:49):
We've had a good time .
Yeah, this is what we're doing.
We're trying to show that we'rehuman and we're trying to say
we go through stuff and I'vesaid from our I think it was the
first podcast talking about weneed more things for first

(02:35:10):
responders who deal with thingsall the time, and it's there.
We just need to take advantageand shake off the stigma of
mental health and go and be apart so hopefully our three
listeners will spread the word.

(02:35:30):
I think we're a bit better thanthat, but I really appreciate
you guys coming in.
This has been informative andfun and thank you all.

Speaker 2 (02:35:38):
Thank you for what you're doing.

Speaker 4 (02:35:41):
Both of you all.

Speaker 2 (02:35:43):
Welcome back anytime.
Yeah, we appreciate it Both ofy'all.
Welcome back anytime yeah, weappreciate it.

Speaker 4 (02:35:47):
Making new friends is incredible.
I don't always do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:35:51):
I've kind of come to that shell that comes with the
line that's.

Speaker 6 (02:35:55):
the thing is, we don't make friends with very
many people, but it's easy tofind a friend at Camp Hero or a
like-minded people.
You just show up and you feellike you're actually friends
with them, because we feelmisunderstood with so many other
people.

Speaker 4 (02:36:10):
So thank you all very much.
We're good, we're good, y'allgood.

Speaker 5 (02:36:15):
Appreciate y'all Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2 (02:36:19):
Catch us on the next one.

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