Small-Town Secrets, Big-Time Security: Inside the Crystal Rogers Murder Trial

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The Crystal Rogers murder case finally comes to a close as Brooks Houck faces justice in one of Kentucky's most high-profile criminal trials of the decade. Court Security Director Darren "Foot" Allen takes us behind the scenes of this remarkable case, revealing the extraordinary security measures implemented to protect everyone from witnesses to jurors to the prosecutor himself.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Blue lights from the dead of the night, lying on a
run of dim street light,laughing through the written
reports.
Truth stranger than the wildestcourts, tales from the force
gone astray, caught up in thegames they play.
High speed chases gone awry.
Serious turns into pie in thesky.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Just out of jurisdictionisdiction podcast,
we are back with you.
We've got a full table tonight.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
This is fun, our repeat, but we have our new
business manager sitting in withus, or she's taking over,
basically on everything we likeit yeah, we're what we want, as
you can tell by the the lapse intime, we're not good at
scheduling so we've gotten busyand now we have a scheduler or

(01:05):
our manager and she's with ustonight.

Speaker 2 (01:07):
We're going to have handlers.
We're not adult enough to dothis on our own.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
We have Karen with us tonight.
Say hello.
You've got to at least say hiand talk to her Hello.
She is taking over.
She's going to help us outtremendously, whether you like
it or not.

Speaker 4 (01:24):
Exactly she's going to help us out tremendously,
whether you like it or not.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Exactly she's already helped us, but she's not coming
from a background that she'snot involved in law enforcement
or emergencies.
She dispatched for years.
That's when I first met her atthe Laurel Dispatch Center and
just always enjoyed working withyou.
It was fun, especially thosenights.

(01:46):
So we're honored to have youhere and then keeping us
straight.
That's the goal.
I don't know if you can, butshe's got her hands full.
All I was focusing on one spotat this table.
We got hands full.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
I'm not saying anything, though he focusing on
one spot at this table.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
We got Doug back.

Speaker 5 (02:06):
I'm not saying anything, though he will.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
He says that every time and then ends up talking a
bunch.

Speaker 5 (02:11):
Oh, I won't, did not.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
We'll see, all ears, we'll see.

Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, all ears, we'll see, we'll see.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
So Doug's back with us and, of course, the man of
the hour, we've got Foot backwith us.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
We've got Foot back with us.
Good to be here.
Yes, I've used that dangerousgentleman and then I found out
that there is a guy and youprobably heard of him.
He's that Victor Marks guy.
Yeah, he's got a Bible studycalled Dangerous Gentleman,

(02:42):
really, and I'm going to startreading it.
Yeah, that guy's good man.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, he's the quickest disarmed guy study
called dangerous gentlemanreally, and I'm gonna start yeah
guys, good man, he's thatquickest.

Speaker 3 (02:46):
Yeah, this arm guy, but I've met him twice, one time
in London and one time at aconference in Cleveland.
I was at, yeah, and but he'sgot that.
I saw man.
I said you should have coinedthat or copyrighted that.

Speaker 5 (03:00):
Tell, afraid but it was like man, what a cool scene.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
I loved it.
And then to see, I was just Iguess I was on YouTube or
something and then saw him onthere.
I listened to his podcast a lotand I was like dangerous
gentleman.
Alright, there it is again so.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
I loved it, we'll give credit to him.

Speaker 3 (03:23):
I'm an old dummy.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
I can't come up with nothing like it.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
So what we got?
So today's episode, somethingthat's a little more current
than most of our old war stories.
If anybody's been following theCrystal Rogers case- let's go
back Now, back in 2020 when theBardstown podcast came out.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
Bardstown came out.
It may have came out a littlebit before, that's when I
started listening to it that'sthe only thing that got me
through COVID we would sit downin the, in the building down at
the London PD, and five or sixof us just listened to that
podcast, you know, becausethat's all we had to do, and it
started out with Jason Ellis'murder.
And you know, jason Ellis wentto Cumberland.

(04:09):
You know University ofCumberland was down here and a
good friend of mine was hisroommate and played baseball
with him.
So when that happened, I meanmy buddy Wynn was just tore up
and just you know.
So that was just such a crazytime, you know, and kind of
vulnerable time, because he waslike man, how many times have I

(04:31):
got out on getting debris out ofthe roadway?
Sure, I mean, how manydifferent things you don't think
about how dangerous and howsome people just want to hurt us
, and one of the saddest thingsI've ever seen.
And then how it not justaffected Bardstown, that

(04:53):
surrounding area up there, butreally hit Williamsburg and even
folks here in London.
So it was that people don'tunderstand that sometimes how
something happens somewhere thataffects you know so many, and I
remember, you know then we'vehad other officers, you know,
get killed like that.
But that one was just such amystery and I remember talking

(05:17):
to someone it happened in what?

Speaker 2 (05:18):
2013?
It was 2012.
2012 was when it actuallyoccurred Somewhere in that time
frame.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
I remember a detective that was.
I was up there right after at aDARE conference or a safe
schools conference and one ofthe detectives with KSP was
telling me, like they were doingsome kind of study about owls
and they had video.
They could hear that shotgunblast going off on those things,

(05:43):
that's true.
And there was a witness thatcame out and said, well, I got
out and moved, had video.
They could hear that shotgunblast going off on those things,
that's true.
And there was a witness thatcame out and said, well, I got
to move that debris, really.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
And somebody moved it back.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Somebody moved it and then obviously they moved it
back to get him.
So that's how they actually itwasn't just for who came,
Anybody coming up there, anypasserby moving that.
It was specifically a trap fora.
It was a specific plan yeah, setup well in advance, likely by
someone who's very good atplanning, and I feel like I got

(06:15):
to know the investigators inthis.
I know the prosecutor and Idon't want to get ahead here and
say something inappropriate,but I feel like there will be
some arrests down the road aboutthat one.
I feel like, and I feel likethere will be some arrests on
the Tommy Ballard murder yeah,crystal's dad, yeah, so I just
got a lot of confidence in thosepeople and I know they're

(06:36):
working right now so we'll seewhat happens.
Yeah, I really recommendeverybody that's not listening
to that podcast the Bardstownpodcast, I think Vault.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Studios is.
Who does it?
Is it the Shea McAllister?
That is Shea McAllister, I getto meet her during this trial.

Speaker 3 (06:55):
She is truly a quality lady, great journalist.
I kind of lost faith injournalism, honestly, but I have
to say she's a quality lady.
She was there every day andI've watched what she's reported
on so I know the accuracy of it.
But you're right, the way shewrote that podcast, you know,
and the way she would talk, itwas captivating, yeah it was,
and Dylan's probably rightDuring a time of COVID where

(07:16):
we're all kind of locked inplaces and listening for stuff.
Yeah, she was.
Sheldon Couch was kind of ahousehold name yeah, it was many
nights.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
I can't wait for an update.

Speaker 3 (07:26):
I'm sure she'll do an update on the trial.
Well, I asked her.
I said are you going to write abook?
And she said I'm thinking aboutit she didn't say I know she's
not with WHAS anymore.
She stepped out and said she'sgoing to devote more time to
family.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
That was recently I know she did.
She did the Barstown podcastand then when they done the
actual search warrants she didback to.
Barstown, but then there was noupdate after that, because
searches weren't conclusive.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
So we started with Jason.
I know talking about that, butBarstown had a series of crazy
events that happened yeah, acouple, you know if you've
listened to the podcast orwhatever and that's really how.
I knew about it and you know amother and daughter were killed,
seems like right after that.

Speaker 1 (08:12):
I'm not home invasion , maybe in 14.
I'm not sure.
I don't want to give a wrongtimeline, yeah and I don't know
what Zach ordered.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
So I for Jason's and then Crystal's disappearance in
2015 so.
I think that was the order, andthen her dad that's the right
order you had.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Jason's, because I just re-listened to that podcast
the other day but you had.
Jason's murder, and then, notlong after that, you had the
home invasion, and then with thetwo murders, and then you had
Crystal went missing and thenher dad was murdered, and
Bardstown might be one of theprettiest little cities in

(08:50):
Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
It is.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
I think, it was actually named that.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
I would put them, and up there in Odom County that
the Grange with the train goingthrough it is two of the coolest
, quaintest towns around.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
So, to see that happen in there in those small
towns is crazy.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Well ironically enough, a guy, I guess, hit the
courthouse today not thejudicial center, but the
courthouse in downtown Bardstownvehicle versus building and he
died from it.
So the higher rate of speed iswhat I'm told, but that's like
the second time this year.
Knox County, if you rememberback in January a kid ran his

(09:33):
car into the building.
So I mean, I don't know what itis with vehicle versus
buildings now.
Buildings and squares.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
I guess we're not used to that.
It's not going to stay.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yeah, Bardstown's had more than its fair share of
activity for certain.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
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Speaker 3 (11:49):
So, chris, let's get into the.
Tell us why you're back.
This is going to be a good one.
Well, I joined.
My job is I'm a head ofsecurity for administrative
office of the courts and part ofwhat I do is provide security
for the seven Supreme Courtjustices, our 14 Court of Appeal
judges, and then I monitor thesecurity of the other 260

(12:12):
district, family and circuitjudges across the Commonwealth
and I work with the sheriff onthat.
It's certainly not a job I doby myself Kudos to my sheriffs
for helping me with that and ofcourse they hire and manage the
personnel that provides securityfor our courthouses.
But part of what we do is westep in high-profile, high-risk
trials and we assist.

(12:33):
We don't come in to take over.
Let me stay right at the start.
Warren County Sheriff'sDepartment likely and honestly
didn't even need us Right, butthere were some factors about
that case that I knew going inand I talked with the judge
about it Judge Charles Sims,he's a native of Bardstown, just
a true gentleman, and he and Italked about it.

(12:55):
There were about 18 witnessesfor the Steve Lawson trial.
That one started end of May,first of June, somewhere around
in that time frame, and Stevewas one of the work hands for
Brooks Howell and the charge wasconspiracy and tampering with
evidence.
When Steve actually confessedthat he and his son Joey moved
Crystal's car and there was aflat tire on the way on the

(13:18):
parkway and of course heactually confessed to helping
move the car and moving the seatforward in an attempt to
deceive investigators, the juryfound him guilty pretty quick.
But anyway, the reason I'minvolved is we work with the
Sheriff's Department becausethere were 17 witnesses on that
one and there were 40 witnessesin the Brooks-Hout trial.

(13:39):
So I didn't want any witnesstampering, I didn't want any.
You know, I worried about thewitnesses.
I mean, obviously, you knowwe've already talked about maybe
some murders that potentiallycould be connected to this.
Somebody shot Tommy Ballard wedon't know why, but it's easy to
assume that it was connectedbecause he was meddling around

(14:00):
trying to figure out who killedhis daughter.
He may have found too much,yeah, meddling around trying to
figure out who killed his dog,digging out, and may have found
too much, yeah.
So you know, I thought of everypossible security scenario that
I could and I tried to have acontingency for that.
I mean, you know, you guys havebeen supervisors, you know?
Yeah, I laid awake at nightthinking what could go wrong and
what will I do about it.
But it ain't about me.

(14:20):
I didn't come here to talkabout me.
But anyway, we worked with theSheriff's Department.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
So I got moved down to Warren County.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah, change of venue Good point Got moved from
Bardstown to Bowling Green,about an hour south, and I don't
want to talk about anybody, butI didn't know this until I went
to the trial the Commonwealthattorney in Nelson County.
At that time he felt like inorder to prosecute for murder,
there should be a body, a crimescene or a murder weapon.

(14:48):
He didn't have any of those inhis case, so that's kind of why
the case went stale.
Uh, it wasn't just that therewasn't evidence there, it was
just that there was a lot ofcircumstantial evidence that
didn't have those factors.
So he didn't really want topush it.
So anyway, uh, the attorneygeneral got involved and I don't
know if it was daniel cameronor russell coleman, maybe a

(15:09):
little bit of both, and theystarted sending, applying some
resources, sent someinvestigators down shane young
out of e-town, hardin county.
He's a commonwealth attorney,they're outstanding, outstanding
guy.
I got nothing but respect forthat guy and I'll tell you a
little bit more as we go alongabout him.
But he was the prosecutor andhe said look, yeah, I'll take
the case.
So he took what he had.

(15:30):
But there was some, I guess,some speculation.
There had been some grand jurytampering in that.
So I knew it wasn't beyond theplayers to possibly try to get
in.
So that was one thing that Italked to the judge about.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
I said, judge, I'd like for the identity of the
jury because you know, even in acamera pan, the best you can do
you're going to pan the juryand then somebody's going to
reckon, oh, I know him.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
And then it just increased the risk of the jury
and who they are and theiridentity to the public and it
just makes it a little easier.
Not saying that they would.
But I wanted to be able to saymy guys took control of the jury
from the time they arrivedevery morning.
We parked them in a designatedarea, we escorted them in the

(16:20):
building, we got them to thejury room.
Nobody from the public touchedthe jury and I was glad to say
that.
But anyway, that's just some ofthe things that we did.
I mean, we weren't uniforms, wewere out of the blue blazer.
I look like Doug Thomas when Igo to work.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
But anyway I was blessed.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
I can't even begin to say how handsome he is tonight.
You're looking good Down to hisfine way he's got that rough
beard going on there.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
But anyway he's not going to say that he's worried.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Oh, he will.
We'll flip his switch hereshortly, but anyway, I was
honored.
I was, you know, I was kind ofworking with Judge to make sure
he was safe.
We escorted him.
He didn't want to let us drivehim, so I made sure that we had
somebody on him from the time heleft the hotel to the time he

(17:10):
got back.
Uh, you know, we just we triedto again, uh, and then, and as
the trial came to a conclusion,we can talk about that as we go.
But there was a couple thingsthat come up remind us here,
director, to talk about that.
I don't want to get the cartahead of the horse, but some
stuff, some stuff come up thatthat uh was concerning to me and

(17:30):
and we had to increase oursecurity around the commonwealth
attorney and the judge, and butwe had it drawn up every day
watching the parking lot.
You know warren county sheriff'soffice.
I can't say enough howwonderful they did.
But they, uh they.
But they were at breaks BecauseI teach court security all
across the state.
I'll be in Bowling Green Monday.

(17:52):
Ironically, talking to courtsecurity and in-service Sounds
like they could probably goteach it.
They could do it themselves.
But anyway, they did anoutstanding job.
But they had it drone up beforebreaks.
But what I was going to say weteach parking lots are where it
happens at.
Yes, all the parties show upwhere Parking lot Time you get

(18:12):
in the building there's a littlebit of security in the building
, at the worst there's.
But parking lots I teach guys,gals, keep an eye on your
parking lots because that'swhere if it's going to go down,
it's going to happen there.
So that's why, on breaks andbefore the conclusion of each
day, we had grown up watchinglooking anything out of the

(18:33):
ordinary, any anomalies thatstood out.
So uh, it went.
It went flawlessly.
The only thing we had a juryduring a sentencing.
One of the jury members in theHal Lawson second trial.
She got sick.
I think she was just overcomewith emotion and she got sick.
But I had a paramedic staged inthe back hallway and I hooked

(18:55):
them up and within minutes wehad her back rolling.
That's awesome, and so itworked out good.
That's the things I don't alwaysI wouldn't think of.
This was a very high profile.
Yeah, it was, because this hasbeen going on now for 10 years.
A little better than that,actually the 10-year anniversary
of her disappearance occurredduring the trial, right so, and

(19:18):
it never ran cold.
That's the thing about this.
It wasn't like a cold case.
It just sounds like a lot ofinvestigations still continuing,
but I never heard of this goinglike a cold case file or
anything like that.
It was just a.
You know the Ballard family,crystal's mom and brother just

(19:39):
sweet people, just good countrypeople, yeah, and they kept it
going.
Her mom kept it going, you know, you all saw it.
I mean the heroes welcome that.
They got after that trial wasover and they returned back to
Bardstown.
People lined up on the streetthat just doesn't happen.
No, no, and you know so they'relisten.

(20:00):
I got to meet them.
I mean, you know just goodpeople and I hate what they've
had to endure and you felt forthem.
You did this whole time and shedidn't.
I mean, in the podcast they didsuch a good job of connecting
with the listeners.

(20:21):
You know you're like, oh mygosh, the emotions.
So when this all went to trial,finally, because every little
bit it was such big news thatLouisville we don't really get
the Louisville news down here Ifit bleeds over something huge
it will spill over, but aBardstown murder will not hit

(20:45):
London, kentucky, if it's not.
You know, sometimes it will.
But this one has reached allthe updates and I've got FBI
buddies that would be like, hey,we're heading to.
You know, it was not such a bigdeal around and now I think
it's even bigger.
You know, I'm sure it'snationally recognized because
the podcast was such a hit, butthere's a lot of emotions, even

(21:09):
for salty old guys like us ofsaying where's this justice at?
Where is this going to happen?
We all know who did this and weall know what probably happened
.
Maybe not everything thathappened, but there was
obviously foul play and justguilt.
You know, of course, theirdefense was that the government

(21:32):
wanted him arrested.
I'm talking about Brooks.
You know the government wantedhim arrested.
And listen, I respect BrianButler.
He was the head attorney forBrooks Houck.
Houck spent about $2.
Million dollars on his attorneyteam.
I don't know if that's publicknowledge, buti guess it is now.
And then Steve Schroering.

(21:54):
Schroering represented a coupleof those police officers and
the Breonna Taylor guy.
So I mean they're the BrionnaTaylor deal and they're just
good men.
You know they were hired to doa job and they did it.
Their team, I mean you couldtell they had planned it,
articulated their defense andthey did a good job.

(22:14):
But I mean they're good people.
But ultimately it is what it isand I think the jury saw
through all that.
The jury, honestly, we alwaysjoke that jurors I mean they get
paid $12.50 a day.
It's laughable, but we alwaysjoke that well, they'll stick

(22:34):
around to get their free lunch.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Because you know we always give in any trial.

Speaker 3 (22:38):
I've ever worked like that.
You know we get them pizza.
We start ordering pizza about11 o'clock I think that jury was
ready to come back before theyate their pizza.
Wow, so well, I say pizza.
They actually ate sandwichesthat day.
But anyway, it's a short day,let's just get to saying it.
Listen.
I'll say this.
This is my opinion, my opiniononly.
I watched that jury and howquickly they came to that

(23:00):
decision.
I mean maybe four hours, wow.
They came to that decision.
I mean maybe four hours, wow.
And on a circumstantial murdercase, that just doesn't happen.
They came back, they deliveredit and I believe if they could
have checked the box of deathpenalty, they'd have gave it to
him.
Now, that wasn't an option,right, but he ended up getting
20 years.
He'll be eligible for parole.

(23:21):
I'm sorry he got life, buthe'll be eligible for parole.
And I'm sorry he got life, buthe'll be eligible for parole in
20 years.
Okay, so I didn't know if thesentencing I had not.
Sentencing is, uh, next month.
Uh, judge sims wants us to comeback down, but uh, but yeah, I
mean there's, uh, there was aninteresting case.
I was thankful that I had itright there.
Every day I tried to be judgesims personal bailiff and try to

(23:42):
help him out with anything thatI could, and and so we yeah, I
mean it was good.
Bowling green's a great placeto have it because the city's
kind of spread out.
You got several motels forconverging families and
participants in the case.
So I watched the media swarm.
You know, um the family after,and they did a good job of just

(24:03):
staying silent.
I think it was the right thingnot to make a statement at that
time.
Let the gravity of the wholesituation just kind of play out.
Sure, you know that they wereprobably.
Well, there's a side story there.
We told the media the trialhappened on the fourth floor of

(24:28):
the courthouse.
We told the media if anybodywants to talk to you, we'll send
them down to you.
So go, stage up in the secondfloor district courtroom.
Well, they went down there.
Well, the jury said no, wedon't want to.
I usually tell them.
I ask the jury members.
I say any of y'all want to talkto the media?
If you do get in the back ofthe line those of you that don't
we will get you to your car andget you out of here.

(24:48):
They said no, we don't want totalk to the media.
So we got the jury out.
Well then, here come the hackfamily.
Hack family said we don't wantto talk to the media.
So I escorted rosemary andronda, the sister, and, uh,
rosemary's boy or rosemary'sboyfriend, and we got them out
the back door and about.
By this time though the media,I guess thought we were and I,

(25:09):
we really didn't.
I mean, if anybody wouldn't wantto talk to the media, we would
have sent them down there, butnone of them did.
Even the defense team didn'twant to, prosecutor didn't want
to, so we got everybody out.
Well, it came ballard's time tocome out.
The ballard family and that was, I guess.
The media started smelling themouth, so they were outside
waiting and that's when you sawwhat they converged on us and
you know, and, and colby thedeputy down there, he kind of

(25:32):
had to yell at lee seriously,for 18 days you saw me laughing
because I was chuckling at colby, because colby's a good fellow.
I know it pained him to do that,but yeah, he's like get back
and his hateful dog voice, butyeah.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Well, he kind of got up.

Speaker 5 (25:52):
Lee was encroaching in the group there.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
She didn't need to do that, but I'm sure she got
caught up in the emotion.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
It was kind of historic They've been covering
this.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah, in a big event like that and you finally feel
like, hey, there's a conclusionhere, there's some justice
that's been done, and everybodygets wrapped up in that, I get
it.
I get it, I don't blame them.
And you know we was talkingabout defense, I remember

(26:19):
finally thinking you know,they've got their job.
I can't personally be so mad atthese folks when they have that
right to have a defense.
Why am I getting mad atsomebody doing their job?

Speaker 5 (26:30):
And I remember that it's like why am I being so?

Speaker 3 (26:34):
petty.
They were well-represented.
Lawson was well-represented.
I got to know the attorneys.
I'm smart enough to know a goodattorney from a bad one and I
can tell you that I mean, boththose guys were were represented
with defense attorneys.
The presentations were good.
It's just, it is what it is.
You know, now this case hasbeen well covered and you may

(26:57):
you may have an argument to saywell, the jury knew more about
the case than they let on andduring vordire, or maybe, maybe
you know, maybe the jury didn'tdo what the judge told them to
do and not research it.
But look, look, folks, here'sthe deal.
We're in 2025 and when you canresearch anything with the with
the thumb of your hand in amatter of minutes, you're going

(27:19):
to do it now that now the judgetold them every day do not
research, do not conduct yourown research.
It has to be specific to whatyou hear in this courtroom, but
I I just feel like that if I'msitting on a jury, I probably
ain't gonna listen to them onresearch.
Now, I don't know that they didthat, but I just feel like that
in this day and time whereresearch is so accessible, I

(27:42):
feel like so maybe they knew,maybe they knew more than they
did.
I don't know.
I'm not saying they did or theydidn't, I'm just saying that
likely in this day and time,with information is available
and to your point as well, asit's been covered, yeah, I don't
know anybody in Kentucky.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
That wouldn't be familiar with it already.
Yeah, I think that's the thingNow the judge did it in Bordyre.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
That wouldn't be familiar with it already.
Yeah, I think.
Now the judge did it in boardire.
He did a good job.
He split up in three or foursections and he gave them a
questionnaire and he said if youknow, nothing about this case.
You're in this group if you knowyou've heard about this case.
But if you haven't formed anopinion, you're in this group.
And if you've heard about thecase and you formed an opinion,
you're in this group.
And that's how it kind ofstarted his foundation, which I

(28:25):
thought it was a masterful wayto do it.
I would say the middle that'sheard about it, because I would
say that the folks that didn'thear about it, they're lying
yeah.
I mean, I think, that's been theassertion by the defense, that
they lied about it.
But you know, I don't know.
How do you prove that?

Speaker 1 (28:45):
I mean you're going to make a jury.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Take a lie detector test, you're going to
interrogate your jury.
So with technology, thischanged everything Social media,
the coverage, our 24-7 newscoverage on everything.
Our police and our fromwherever putting out info,

(29:06):
arrests before it's.
You know, they've had their dayin court.
How is it now time for thecourts to make some changes on
how they do things, and can we?

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Can that happen?

Speaker 3 (29:20):
And that's a good question, Travis, because a lot
of people don't know this Karenand I talked about it.
The prosecutor in the secondtrial could not mention the
Steve Lawson trial.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
And how horrible could that be.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
And now we talked about Steve Lawson in the second
trial and we talked about someof the things that had been
testified to in the first trial,but the jury was never told hey
, steve lawson's aco-conspirator and he was found
guilty three weeks ago, right?
So don't that's my fault withthe justices.
Don't.
Don't yell at me about factsand truth when you only want
parts of it, the parts you wantto allow the jury to hear the

(29:58):
reality is, and I guess I guessthe the powers that be in the
judiciary, jurist or judiciary,whatever they decided.
well, it violates what Fifth andFourteenth Amendment rights, if
you let the jury know?
But the reality is it was factthat they found Steve Lawson
guilty, but the jury wasn'tallowed to know that.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
So you know.

Speaker 3 (30:22):
I guess they're going to say, well, they researched
it too much.
But I'm going to say, well,that wasn't allowed in and it
probably should have been,because it's a fact and you know
put the facts out there and ifit slants the jury, then so be
it.
It's a fact.
It's not like it's an opinion.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
It would be evidence.
Is it sequestered?

Speaker 3 (30:42):
Is that how you say, that Sequesterester, a jury, I
mean in today's time, takingaway, I mean you wouldn't get
anybody.
I know everything.

Speaker 1 (30:52):
I've already formed my opinion.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Because you take away , you lock them up in a hotel
for whatever during that time.
It just don't happen anymore.
It just doesn't At expense, youknow, and it's just really hard
, it's hardship on everybody,and you're talking about a 10
day trial, actual 10 days that'sa long time, and in the heart
of summer when most people aregoing on vacation.
I mean that's tough, you know.
I mean I know there will bethings that they're going to try

(31:16):
to appeal and you know we'llsee what happens, but that's
what I was going to ask.
Next kind of is the will thatand you've answered it pretty
much because of the amount ofpublicity that the case has got.
I mean, we're all five of ussitting here have listened to
the podcast, have done it.

(31:37):
How's this not?
I mean I get it, they're goingto go to appeal and they're
going to have a good chance ofgetting a at least another maybe
.
I mean they could.
You know of anything I've heardof, especially in Kentucky.
I mean they could.
They could get a another trialor at least get.

Speaker 5 (31:55):
I mean it goes to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Anything over 20 years goes to the Supreme Court
automatically.
So so the House will go to theSupreme Court.
We'll see what the seven decideon.
You know they'll takeeverything.
They'll listen to it.
That'd be interesting, I didn'tknow that.
That's good, it will beinteresting.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
I was in a county yesterday.

Speaker 3 (32:13):
I won't say where I was at, but I was in a county.
Yesterday I had a couple of thejudges in their building
looking at some of theirelectronic equipment and she
said, hey, when you get time Iwant to hear all the juicy
details on.
I'm like, yes, ma'am, when Iget time I'll tell you so to
your point.
It's an intriguing case.
People don't know the details.
We got another one going tohappen.

(32:34):
Yeah, I mean, it's one inWhiteburg.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
It's going to be a monster.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
It's probably likely we'll be in Bowling Green,
probably in the spring of nextyear.
I judge Cove Run as the judgeon that case and I don't know if
it's going to Bowling Green yet, but yeah, I suspect that it
could go there and it'll be aninteresting case for sure.
It's just like that.
Have me back and we'll talkabout that one, that's going to

(33:01):
be a good one too.
I'm just getting a lot of thenational that hit pretty quick.
I'm blessed to be able to sit inthe seat that I do and get to
take in what I take in.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
I'm honored so, with hearing everything that you've
heard through that trial, I knowthe podcast kind of hinted at
it or that was.
The big question is, wasJason's related to all?
The others are all the othersin that podcast tied together.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
I don't think I don't think they have a clear motive
in jason's murder.
Uh, I think it's a known factthat, uh, nick halk and jason,
uh, about two weeks before jasonwas killed, didn't ye and Hall
very well, didn't ye and Hall?
But they had a little incidentat roll call.
I won't go a lot into that, butit's a known fact by the

(33:51):
parties that there was somefriction there.
Now does that make a guy asuspect in a murder?
I mean, I think it makes him aperson of interest.
And I'd be foolish to sit hereand tell you they're not looking
at Nick Houck.
You know Nick Houck, formerpolice officer.
You look at the components ofthat Jason Ellis murder.

(34:11):
Someone planned that very well,but does that make him a
suspect?
That alone, you know, person ofinterest is what we'll say.
So I think you start to look atthe whole totality of the
circumstances.
You know, I think I don't thinkyou can not say Nick Calc's not

(34:37):
a dangerous man and verycapable of committing such a
murder.
Does that mean he did it?
I don't know We'll see whathappens, but I think he is I
really thought there would besomething with him on the
crystal rogers case well, hisname was mentioned.
Now he's an unindictedco-conspirator.
It's funny you say that travis,because his name came up a lot.
He was a the white car whichI'm sure karen's going to ask me

(34:58):
about.
You know, nick helped sell thatcar it was him alone brooks
didn't have anything to do withthe white car and I'll fill in
the details when you're ready onthat.
And even in sentencing theprosecutor looked right at
Rosemary Houck, who's sitting inthe audience, and said she

(35:19):
wanted her dead.
And I'm thinking how do you dothat without getting a lawsuit
filed on you?
But I guess when you're anunindicted co-conspirator, that
gives the prosecutor a littlebit more leverage in identifying
you and mentioning your name incourt.
I don't know, those arelegalities that are above my
knowledge base, right?

Speaker 2 (35:38):
because I know, I know Nick came up, did he not?
He called Brooks during one ofhis police interviews.
He did and he told him.
He told him to shut up.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Yeah, he told him they're going to try to screw
you.
you better, and so Brooks waslike so you're telling me to
leave and he's like yeah, I'mtelling you to leave, so you
know.
And then of course, we all knowthat Nick, his police car, was
seized and sent to the lab, andso I mean you know, there's a
lot of things you can't overlookNick as a player in this and I

(36:09):
know I'll just go ahead and sayit, I don't, I mean Nick, he
practices long-range shooting.
I've got neighbors that havespecifically told me that when
he shoots a report, about twoseconds later you hear ping hit
the metal.
Well, what's that?
Tell you, he's a long way away.
He's a long way away, so hepractices long-range shooting.

(36:31):
Now again, can I indict?
a guy based on that, no but youtake the totality of the
circumstances and you'restarting to piece together what
looks like something's not right.
If it looks like a duck, itquacks like a duck.
I mean like something's notright.
If it looks like a duck quackslike a duck, I mean we're all
cops, yeah and we got a youngdispatcher sitting with us here.
But listen, I mean we're justsitting around talking and I

(36:53):
don't want to wronglyincriminate anybody, but but
again, all these things aredocumented and so we'll see what
happens.
I you know, I don't know.
They may not, they may not everbe an indictment.
Currently he's not indicted.
He's just referred to as anunindicted coke conspirator, he
and his mom, rosemary.

Speaker 4 (37:10):
But his name did come up during the white car and
that Now, from what I understand, that white car was sold that
same week.

Speaker 5 (37:18):
It was.

Speaker 3 (37:19):
I'll tell you the story on the white car.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
Yeah, that's true, the white car that was granny's
car there was.

Speaker 3 (37:24):
Uh, shortly about, I don't know, probably three or
four months after crystal wentmissing, tommy ballard posted on
facebook that he was lookingfor a white car, possibly a
buick.
Well, finally, and the reasonwhere the white car came into
play there were some coonhunters that were hunting the
night of July the 3rd in thefarm, the farm next to the

(37:45):
Brooks Out Farm.
Well, it was raining and about9, 30, 10 o'clock that night
they walked up on a white carand they thought it was kind of
odd because it was the middle ofnowhere and obviously, you know
, it looked like a decentvehicle and one of the coon
hunters testified that it wasfrom nelson county.
So, uh, it took them three,four, five months to piece

(38:09):
together that.
Hmm, that was about.
That was the night that girlwent missing and we were next
door to that farm.
So the coon hunters reached outto tommy ballard and said, hey,
this white car was here.
So tommy put out a facebookpost.
Well, it took everybody inNelson County and investigators
to realize, hmm, brooks andNick's grandma had a white car.

(38:29):
Well, they go get a searchwarrant and look for the white
car.
And the white car sold Two ormaybe a day or two before.
So they find the car inLouisville.
They brought a car dealer fromLouisville I thought this was
intriguing a car dealer from lul.
I thought this was intriguing.
But the car dealer came in andtestified that nick halk and the

(38:49):
and the mother grandmother ofthe car had come in and they
wanted to sell the car.
And the guy said okay, uh, whatare you asking?
So we want to sell the car.
And the car dealer said well, Ineed to look at it so I can
assess the value.
And nick halk said no, youcan't look inside the car who
does that?

Speaker 1 (39:03):
you know, and that's what this guy testified to.

Speaker 3 (39:07):
So again I thought, hmm, that's interesting.
So they ended up getting thecar.
Uh, the car was in a storagelot somewhere and one of the
detectives uh, ran across a, uh,a guy, a cadaver dog guy.
He, they were at the nraconvention, I guess 2017 or 18
or somewhere around in there mytimeline's a little maybe a

(39:28):
little wrong, but like I've beena little yeah, and so one of
the detectives who was familiarwith the case, I guess, bumped
into a guy and his dog at thenra convention.
He advertising on the back ofhis shirt hey, I'm a cadaver dog
.
So the guy says, hey, let's seehow good your dog is.
So he on a random, he picks himup the next morning.
The detective said he didn'ttell him anything about the case

(39:49):
, he didn't identify the car.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
And the canine handlers.
You all know them, You'veworked with them.
They're pretty straight up.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
They don't want that information because they want to
know that their dog is capableand competent to do, unless
you're doing it in front of abunch of Derek kids.

Speaker 5 (40:04):
Yeah, and competent to do, unless you're doing it in
front of a bunch of Derek kids.
Yeah, exactly, I can't missthis.
Yeah, exactly, yeah right, yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:09):
So, anyway, they show up next day at the storage lot
and the dog alerts on the car,on the rear of the car, and I
think there was a hair found inthere.
But they couldn't do a DNAnacomparison, say that it was
crystals.
They said it was.
It kind of had similarities butit fell short of an actual 100

(40:31):
match.
But y'all know how that is man,virgin cases are made on dna.
I mean, I know hollywood lovesit, but the reality is in the
real world just doesn't happenall that often.
But that's the story of thewhite car and uh and nick, nick
and grandma helped get rid ofthat car after it appeared on
facebook that people werelooking for it.
So again, mr halk, if you'relistening, I don't know man,

(40:55):
it's looking to me like it, yeah, the thing is gonna be pouring
your way, but I you know we'llsee he might be able to avoid
prosecution.
But I just feel like and thatcame up, his name was mentioned
several times throughout thetrial.
So again, I guess, being anunendatted co-conspirator,
there's certain liberties thatthe prosecution has did they
ever land on a solid motive?

(41:16):
never did well.
A couple witnesses came in thatworked for brooks and that knew
knew Brooks, or knew Rosemary.
Rosemary wanted her dead,didn't like her hair, didn't
like her.
Brooks had told some peoplethat he wouldn't lose Eli.
Eli's a child in common.
He was about two years old atthe time of the disappearance.
You know, there was just some.

(41:39):
They kind of led us to believethat there had been some talking
and some people had overheardsome conversations.
But Rosemary didn't like herand I told Karen this.
And to me the most compellingpiece of evidence as I sat and
listened there for two and ahalf weeks on the second trial,

(42:00):
was they brought in the neighborof Crystal Rogers in her
subdivision and she lived acrossthe road.
And the prosecutor asked her,said how well do you know
Crystal?
And she said I know her well,said her kids come to my house,
my kids go to her house, we seeeach other every day.
Prosecutor said okay, tell mewhat you saw.
And it was about four daysafter Crystal went missing.

(42:23):
She said well, she said Ithought it was odd because I was
afraid, you know, crystal'sgone missing, my best friend's
gone missing and and I'm afraidthe serial killer's on the loose
.
And she said all of a sudden Inoticed one afternoon that
rosemary pulled up in her carand nick pulled up in his police
cruiser and they pulled in.

(42:43):
But then they got out for aminute and they talked and then
they backed out and then backedin the driveway so we couldn't
see what they were doing.
And they went in the house andthey got some stuff and they put
it in the trunk of their carand the prosecutor said okay,
what else did you see?
And she said well, the thing Ithought was odd.
Now again, this is notfabricated.

(43:04):
This, she said well, the thingI thought was odd.
Now again, this is notfabricated.
This is raw eyewitnesstestimony.
The young lady said well, I'lltell you what I saw.
I saw Rosemary go over.
Crystal had some pretty purpleflowers in her flower garden and
I saw Rosemary walk over andpull those flowers up and throw
them in the trash.
Can Now boys, ralph and SueEllen didn't raise no dummy.

(43:25):
I'm going to tell you right now.

Speaker 4 (43:26):
I heard that I'm like bazinga and this was just a few
days.
This was three or four days.

Speaker 3 (43:33):
Rosemary.
I walked her out.
She was nice to me.
I ain't going to lie.
I was afraid somebody mightsnap a picture.
If my picture had to be snapped, I'm glad it was with the
Ballard family.
But anyway she was complimented.
She said thank you and I saidma'am, have a good day.
But the thing about that is,the mother of your grandbaby is

(43:54):
gone missing.
Three days earlier you have donenothing to help locate her up
until this point, and theirdefense was well, the sheriff
told us not to get involved.
Well, that you've done nothingto help locate her three or four
days after she's gone missingand all you care about is some
landscaping and flowers andlandscape and you want to get

(44:14):
rid of them.
To me that paints a picture ofI know she ain't coming back.

Speaker 4 (44:21):
Well, that's what I'm , yeah, this is my question.
How do you know she's notcoming back?

Speaker 5 (44:26):
Yeah, how do you know ?
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
What were the bags that they were?

Speaker 3 (44:29):
carrying?
Yeah, Nobody knows.
And.

Speaker 4 (44:32):
Crystal may show up tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
She may.

Speaker 4 (44:35):
As far as that week, nobody knew where Crystal was,
so why would they expect her notto come back?

Speaker 3 (44:42):
Yeah, I mean to me.
Why are you carrying littlepurple flowers at the girl's
house for?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Well, and, furthermore, most people who
think somebody's missing or havelost a loved one.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
That's the last thing they do is go through things
and get rid of their we'retalking four or five days after,
especially, yeah, you know thecar, the speculation is and and
the you know shane prosecutoralluded to it in his closing
they were taking the car to getrid of it but it had a flat tire

(45:14):
and the flat tire and they hada hard time getting somebody
because there was some testimonythat they had reached out to a
gentleman by the name of CharlieGirdley and Charlie was just an
old workhand, just an old rough, to sit here we'd probably
laugh, cut up, but he's just anold rough guy got.
You know, we've had a rough.
He'll tell you, I've beenaddicted about my whole life to

(45:35):
alcohol and drugs.
But but anyway, charlietestified that they called him
wanting him to come, move thecar and they bring a trailer.
It broke down and he's like I'mdrunk and I can't come.
So that you know that.
But they couldn't get it movedso they'd left it there.
And then, you know, theybrought in some witnesses who
saw it, who put it on the sideof the BG Parkway at like 1030.

(45:57):
And then the guy came back thenext morning and he saw the car
again.
So they've got a time that thecar was there and there was a
lot of chatter back and forthabout cell phone.
You know location and to methat was good evidence.
Uh, the homicide detective fromlmpd, he came, he came down and

(46:17):
he, he, I think he, I think he,he helped the case did they
jail fence.
It is that they were, but theywere saying that that, uh uh,
the defense is like well, yeah,they were looking at prisms on
the towers and it's supposed tohit the closest tower, but the

(46:38):
detective said that's not alwaysthe case.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Sometimes it bumps them into too much traffic they
brought in their expert.

Speaker 3 (46:45):
Honestly, I guess I didn't pay enough attention in
science class to be, but I'mlike I really don't need this to
make my mind up.
No, the lay witnesses was whatspun it for me, like now.
I'll be honest, I thought, infull disclosure, I hadn't
listened to the podcast.
I didn't know who ShaneMcAllister was.

(47:07):
Now I did watch in anticipationof the trial.
I did watch that Oxygen Network.
I think it's like a six-partseries.
I did watch it just to kind offamiliarize myself with the
names and the players andpossibly help me better do my
job.
So I knew that going in but Ididn't dwell in the case that
much.
But I always was under theimpression that Houck, in a fit

(47:29):
of rage, killed her and then heused all these jokers to help
get rid of the body.
But after setting thattestimony, truly convinced that
they planned to get rid of herlong before they did, he said
that surprises me, because Iwould have thought it was a fit
of rage just to I don't think so.
He planned it the and and and Iasked the jury members as we
were walking out.

(47:49):
I I said so tell me.
You all can talk now.
What was the most compellingpiece of evidence for you?
And one of the elderly women onthe jury said well, I'll tell
you what.
His timeline was awful.
Well, kudos to the detectivethat worked the case.
Initially he was a detectivewith the Nelson County Sheriff's
Department.
He brought in Houck after theyfound her car, brought in Houck

(48:13):
maybe two days later and gavehim a piece of paper and said I
need to know everywhere you wereon July the 3rd.
Well, he wrote like eight pagesand they brought in witness
after witness that said I didn'tsee him on July the 3rd, or he
didn't come see me.
I wasn't with him on July the3rd, or he didn't come see me.
I wasn't with him on July the3rd.
So that's part of it.
But his phone location thegeofencing showed him at his

(48:36):
mama's farm all day long and itshowed moving on his mama's farm
, because there's more accuracyif you go through a Google than
if you just go through the phoneitself.
And he was a Google.
Now Nick, here we.
We go talking about nick, againunindicted co-conspirator.
But nick turned his phone off.
They brought his girlfriend in.

(48:57):
He was supposed to be helpingmove, helping her move.
Him and her were moving fromone house to another and he went
.
He went radio silent, radiosilent.
For a day and a half happened tobe on July the 3rd.
Brooks was at the farm all daylong, from 8 to 4 doing
something.
Now, crystal had told some ofher friends she was excited

(49:20):
because she's going to have adate with Brooks and we're going
to be kid free.
Well, she was telling everybody, hey, I finally get to go on a
date with my man, you know.
And she was excited tellingeverybody hey, I finally get to
go on a date with my my man, youknow.
And she was excited.
Well, when they, when brooks,spoke to the detective about,
about, uh, you know what y'alldid on your date night, he said

(49:41):
we went to the farm and walkedaround for two hours and hiking
and, and so it was raining.
That was the point that a lotof the witnesses kept saying.
Apparently, it poured the rainon July the 3rd 2015.
I don't know, but I guess so.

(50:04):
Anyway, they kind of alluded tothe fact that that was probably
where he killed her at on thefarm Because he took her back
later his phone.
She ended up going off the radararound 9 30 because she was she
liked to play games and ofcourse they brought in the cell
bright expert who said you know,I can say that her phone
stopped working.
She was on facebook from thistime to this time.
She was on candy crush, maybeon this time, this time time,

(50:29):
and at 9.28.
So it appeared in my mind thather life ended right around
between 9 and 10 o'clock on Julythe 3rd 2015.
I think that's the conclusionyou can draw Now.
Her phone powered off Well, I'msorry, it ran out of battery

(50:52):
Powered back on about midnightor something and immediately
went off again.
Now there was a charger foundnext to the phone in the car.
So you know, I don't know.
Another piece of evidence thatprobably roasted him was on the
July the 4th, her family waslooking for her.
Mom had called.
Her family was looking for momhad called her text.

(51:13):
Her kids had called and texther.
Where are you at?
Where are you at?
Well, they started callingbrooks.
Have you seen mom texted brooks?
Have you seen mom?
Where's mom?
And he wouldn't answer none ofthem.
He wouldn't take their call andhe wouldn't answer their text.
Now you say, well, I was busy.
Well, the only phone call heanswered that day was from his
mom.
Rosemary called him and heanswered her, but he didn't want

(51:34):
to take it and Shane did a goodjob of highlighting that point.
Shane said he didn't want totalk to them because he knew
once he did, the bet was off andthey would start looking for it
.
I mean, he emphasized thatpoint.
I was proud of him, man.
He nailed that one home was her.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
It was the mom's phone call at the same time.
All in the same time?
Yeah, the same time frames soyou know shortly before.
So it just goes to prove thatyeah, he was.

Speaker 3 (51:59):
He didn't want to talk to them, then everybody's
going to come in, so he had a,basically yeah he had to push it
out as far as he could.

Speaker 2 (52:10):
Now they talk about on the podcast that they bring
up something about taxes andsome underhand like cash deals
and stuff.

Speaker 3 (52:18):
Was that the sheet stone or 20?
Well, in 2019 or 20, somebodyfraudulently used her name and
social security number to try toscam the government.
Maybe you know?
I don't even know that that waseven brought up much in the
second trial.
It somehow was brought up inthe first trial but I didn't
hear a lot said about that inthe second trial.
So there's been no.
There's been no site.

(52:40):
Now there was a.
We talked about that as Ithought that was pretty good
piece of evidence, but there wasa guy who a reputable citizen,
who reported that he saw her ina car a couple days after they
found the car on the parkway.
He called in.
They were getting hundreds ofcalls and the deputy testified

(53:03):
to that.
He said we were getting morecalls than we could take in.
So anyway, this couple said wesaw her on such and such road in
Nelson County.
She looked like she was crying,so that was kind of a unique
and that kind of took it off.
Brooks, you know in theinterview but if you one of the

(53:25):
most compelling anothercompelling piece of evidence and
not getting into any of thescience of the cell phones,
compelling piece of evidence innot getting in any of the signs
of the cell phones, was duringone of the search warrants in
like 2019 or 20, 21.
They did a search warrant forRosemary's house and maybe
Brooke's house, I don't remember.
Anyway, they found three videocassette recorders.

(53:46):
They were in the pants pocketin the closet voice recorders,
voice recorders, closet Voicerecorders, voice recorders, a
little small voice recorders.
Well, they listened to thosevoice recorders and it was the
Houcks recording the grand jurytestimony.
Well, the knucklehead dumbcriminal award.
You know how those things are.

(54:07):
Sometimes they turn on and youdon't want them to.
Well, it recorded someconversation about that.
Maybe they didn't want to and Itook a picture of the
transcript.
It was played to the jury.
Now a lot of it was inaudiblebecause it's in a pocket rubbing
around, but it said therecording on July the 9th 2015,.

(54:27):
Brooks says to Rosemary it wasa conversation between Brooks
and Rosemary Houck about theblanket.
There was a blanket that wasfound in the back of Nick's
cruiser.
When it was so they wererecording people.
Of course, their testimony waswell, we were paranoid
Everybody's out to get us so wewanted to start recording our
interactions.
Okay, okay, whatever.

(54:49):
On July the 9th, 9th 2015.
A conversation between brooksand rosemary halk about the
blanket.
Brooks says so they took hiscar from him.
Rosemary says you know thatblanket in the trunk.
He was worried about that atfirst.
Does it have anything on it?
Rosemary says to brooks.
Brooks says uh, uh.
Rosemary says okay, what aboutthat thing from yesterday?

(55:11):
Brooks says don't matter.
Now this is a conversationgoing on between the chief
suspect and his mama.
They accidentally recorded it,so fast forward.
Another joke Brooks saysthere's teal right there.
Rosemary says Casey.
Brooks says yeah, and thenRosemary says some kind of

(55:33):
comment.
Brooks says there's teal rightthere.
Rosemary says Casey.
Brooks says yeah, and thenRosemary says some kind of
comment.
Brooks says what's that?
And then Rosemary says I wishmy windows were black.
And then Brooks says blackedout and he chuckles and this is
six days after the wife of hismother disappears and he's
chuckling about having tintedwindows.
It's easy to villainize thesepeople Now I know their defense
did a good job, but there's justso much.

(55:54):
And then the other, july of the9th 2015,.
Brooks says to I think he'stalking to somebody, I don't
know if they ever determined whoand he says a bad tip's jacked
them all up.
Well, he's referring to thattip that that family said well,
we saw her, so he knew that.

(56:15):
You know they were forming atimeline, that he's the one.
July the 3rd is the day.
Now, all of a sudden, this good, reputable couple comes in and
they're saying that, well, weseen her, we seen her, like on
July the 6th or 7th, on thisroad, you know, and they were
just good people, they were justmistaken.

Speaker 4 (56:35):
But Brooks tells probably Nick or Rosemary the
bad tips jacked them all up.
A bad tip, a bad tip.
He knows it's a bad tip.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
Well, he knew because Snow had told him in that
interview that you all have seenSnow stole it and told Brooks
that the tip did not pan outuntil after July, the 11th.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
So he knew it was a bad tip Before Before.
The police knew it was a badtip Before he was told.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
So you know little tidbits like that you miss in
coverage, but to me that'spretty compelling.

Speaker 4 (57:04):
That takes me back to the car, her car, and this may
go back to the Stephen Lawsonand this may go back to the
steven lawson brooks house wassupposed to have asked steven
lawson or joey one to move thatcar correct, that's right move
it from where well, there wastestimony.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
Move it from brooks house farm okay move it.
We don't know where, don't know,there was some testimony that
one of the witnesses that sheoverheard it was the girlfriend
of Stephen Lawson.
Now Stephen is the father ofJoey Lawson, Right, right, and
the girlfriend of Stephen Lawsontestified over here in a
conversation between Stephen andJoey, that they were going to

(57:44):
move the car and help move thebody for $50,000.
Okay, that money was neverfound.
You know the bank documentsdidn't reveal that.
But let's face it here we'redealing with meth heads, oh you
know, I mean we all, not todegrade people with addiction.
But the reality is we're notdealing with.

Speaker 4 (58:03):
They're not very reliable.
I haven't heard where they weremoving it from and why.
Okay, well, they, if you're notquestioning.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
Steve.
And why?
Okay?
Well, steve testified on hisown in his trial.
Yes, and he testified that hewas at the farm and Joey pulled
up in the car.
So get that out of here, getthat out of here.
Okay, and of course, surprisedyou.
He was like why did you want toget rid of it?
Why did you say that, get itout of here?
And he said, well, we justdidn't need that car up here.

(58:30):
You get it out of here.
And he said, well, I just, hesaid we just didn't need that
car up here.
You know, he tried to cover upthe fact that he knew they
didn't need to be around thatcar.
Well, anyway, steve indicatedthat Joey told him to move the
car.
So Steve was following.
Joey was driving Crystal's cardown the parkway.
Steve testified that the carhad a flat pulled off side of
the road and that when Joey gotout of the car, steve moved the

(58:52):
seat forward.
Now he said, well, just thatthe the seat was.
I knew that joey was tallerthan crystal.
Well, he admitted to me rightthere.
He was trying to deceiveinvestigators.
He wanted to look like that.
Crystal left that car as it was.
Now that that didn't come out inthe second trial.
But that was a big piece of thefirst trial because, but
understand, there had been somany investigators that had

(59:14):
interrogated these people.
You know, they lied, they lied.
They tell the truth.
They tell the partial truth.
They lie again.
But during one of theinterviews where he probably
told the truth, that's when headmitted yeah, I followed my son
, he drove that car.
I mean, you all know how it is,sometimes people will tell the
truth and sometimes they won't.
If they think they can fool youas an interviewer, they'll do

(59:38):
it.
But I guess whoever wasinterviewing was able to peer
back some of those onion layersof defense and and he told the
truth.
And he said, yeah, we moved thecar, but that didn't come out.
In the second trial, the secondtrial, they probably spent the
better part of two days talkingabout cell phone triangulation.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Well, that's a distraction.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
Because I had the knowledge in the first trial.
Well, the dude that moved thecar admitted to it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
So why are we going?

Speaker 3 (01:00:01):
on, but again, that's part of that justiceship stuff
that annoyed me and we wastedtwo days of our time talking
about it.
Because that was a terribleincident.
Yeah, exactly, you can lose ajury talking over their head
about stuff that they don'tunderstand.
Yeah, and you can.

(01:00:22):
You know if you can distractthem or preoccupy them and I
know as bad ADHD as I am, itdon't take much.
I'm a squirrel.

Speaker 2 (01:00:29):
That's why I'm a manager.
Well, let me ask you this thisis another question.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
I have that?
I've not heard answered or I'vejust not found it.
Now.
Crystal Rogers' other children.
They interviewed their dad.
Okay, now that day, the 3rd ofJuly, did Crystal Rogers drop
the kids off with their fatheror did the father pick the kids

(01:00:54):
up?

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
That I don't know, because I think I've heard it
both ways they were.
I think that's pretty muchCrystal's husband's alibi.
Now she was still married tothe Rogers guy, correct, and she
was shacked up and leaving theBrooks on and on again, off
again.
But I think his alibi was well,he had the kids.

(01:01:15):
They had two kids in common.
She had a kid, maybe two kidsbefore the Rogers and then of
course, eli, so he had five kids.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
So the kids were with her husband, right, but she was
at Walmart.
She was at Walmart with Eli andmaybe one of the other girls
and I guess I don't know, Idon't know that's a good
question.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
That's what I'm saying.
Then I heard something abouthis testimony saying that she
was showing a house.

Speaker 3 (01:01:43):
Yeah, for rental.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Yeah, and she got home about 530?
.

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Yeah.
That's what Well did she have?

Speaker 4 (01:01:50):
That's what I'm saying.
Did she drop the child?
That was not Eli.
Well, there was.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
Rhonda, who's a sister of Brooks and Nick,
testified that she had Eli withher at the Science Museum in
Louisville on July the 3rd.
But if you Google when theScience Museum in Louisville, it
says it was not open to thepublic on July the 3rd, so I
don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:02:12):
And then there's Walmart.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
The Walmart footage and I don't know if Eli was.
You may all know, but Iremember seeing the footage but
I don't know who was with herduring that footage.
But yeah, I think you know thedefense made an issue that well
they didn't really look at theRogers guy as a suspect or none
of her other, but in reality Ithink that the kids were with

(01:02:35):
them.

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
I'm just trying to figure out.
Yeah, it's hard to probably.
I'm just trying to figure outthat timeline of where the kids
were and how they got to wherethey were.

Speaker 3 (01:02:42):
Brooks says that Eli was with them the night, that he
went to bed about midnight andthat Crystal was playing on her
phone and that Eli routinelywould not went to bed about
midnight and that Crystal wasplaying on her phone and that
Eli routinely would not go tobed until Crystal went to bed.
And then Brooks says well, Iwoke up Saturday morning and
kids lay next to me and I don'tknow where Crystal is.

(01:03:02):
And she's done this before.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
But wasn't there testimony too about one of the
other children?
Well, none of the otherchildren.
Yeah, the oldest girl.
That's the one that calledBrooks on Saturday and said hey,
have you seen Mom and hewouldn't take her call.
So that's what I was trying tofigure out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
It was testified too that he didn't like the other
children.
And he would pay more attentionto Eli than he would to
stepkids.

Speaker 4 (01:03:26):
That's what kind of confused me too.
How did those kids getdistributed before their farm
trip?

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Yeah, I don't know.
That's a good question.

Speaker 4 (01:03:36):
She had a basketball team.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
I mean, that's a bunch of kids.
She did.

Speaker 4 (01:03:41):
And especially if they kept the kids most of the
time.
It kind of sounded that wayalmost.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
But we, and I'll tell you this, this is something the
public don't know and I don'tknow if I should tell you or not
, but I'm going to because Iwant to.
I want to.
I like your style.
Well, mainly the reason I wantto do this I want to commend
shane young because you all haveworked trials, you've been
involved in investigation.
There's always more to thestory than what we can tell.
Certain things aren't allowedin.

(01:04:09):
Well, the the friday, what well,it was the 4th of July this
year.
We monitored Brooks Houck'soutgoing phone calls and for
those of you that are all aboutdefendant's rights, just so you
know, when you go to jail, yourphone calls are not private,
absolutely.
So I made the decision whatcalls are not private?

(01:04:34):
So I made the decision what weset it up with the Warren County
Jail.
I want to know what that dude'ssaying, because if there's
something going on, I'm gonna beahead of it.
Right.
So I had one of my coordinatorsevery night and he's a nosy
little fella.
He's a retired trooper, andhe's nosy and and he's perfect
guy for it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:50):
He was, he, a retired trooper and he's nosy, and and
then perfect, guy eat up with it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:52):
He was, he was wearing me out.
Send me the code, because inorder to log into this program I
have to be the administrator,and I would.
He would make the request andthe code would get sent to me
and then I would give it to himand then he would get online and
listen to the house phoneconversation.
Well, there was a conversationon fourth of july, by and, and

(01:05:16):
here's the timeline the defensehad rested that day, I'm sorry,
the day before july the third,the defense rested.
We were going to be off thefourth, fifth, six, they would
come back on the seventh and wewould start with closing
arguments.
Well, and then again.
I'm just telling this because Iwant to highlight shane young
and what just a great man he is.

(01:05:37):
We intercepted a conversationbetween nick and brooks brook.
Or nick is at ronda's house andnick is at ronda's house, and
nick says to ronda you're goingto take care of that, aren't you
?
And Rhonda, I guess, says yes,she nods and Nick's talking and
he says to Brooks he says yeah,listen we're going to take care

(01:05:59):
of that and then we're going tolet your attorneys do whatever.
Okay, what are we talking abouthere?
Because the trial's, in essence, over with.
All of a sudden, brooksabruptly hangs up the phone.
I felt like that he was hangingup the phone.
He's saying shut up, dummy,they're listening, yeah, and you
can hear the recording say thecaller has left the conversation

(01:06:19):
.
So I felt like Nick forgot fora moment that he was.
So what was he talking about?
What are we going to take careof?
So I called the detectives, Icalled Desi, I called the
prosecutor and the I called thedetectives, I called Desi, I
called the prosecutor and theprosecutor called me.
He said Foot, what do you think?
And I said Shane, I think weneed to.
I'm going to tighten thesecurity on the judge and I

(01:06:43):
think we need to tightensecurity on you.
And Shane still has security,but Shane moved his wife and
kids out of his house.
This is your prosecutor,probably the biggest case of his
life.
He's getting ready to deliverclosing arguments and he ain't
sleeping because he's afraidsomebody's going to kill him Wow
.
So he had to show up on Mondayand, I'll be honest, he didn't

(01:07:05):
do great in closing Because I'dwatched him throughout the trial
and I told him this.
I said you did great, but hell,I'm sorry I need to cuss, you're
all right?
I think I probably said one Imean, bleep me, bleep that out
if I can.
I mean my preacher don't likeit when I cuss.
But but I said man listen,you've been up all night all

(01:07:27):
weekend worrying somebody gonnashoot you.
I said you did awesome comparedwith what you had against you.
So that's the reason I tellthat story.
He would probably say I wishyou hadn't told that.
But I tell that to highlightwhat a man, what a good man he
is to be able to overcome theadversity.
And maybe there was nothing toit, maybe it was an innocent

(01:07:48):
conversation, but I felt likewhen Brooks Howe camealk on that
phone he was like shut up,dummy, you're talking too much.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
Well, you would think that somebody that works in law
enforcement would know andimmediately think of that too.

Speaker 3 (01:08:02):
But I think he's trying to tell his buddy we got
you back here.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Maybe I think you're right.

Speaker 3 (01:08:07):
Maybe I would have taken extreme precautions on on
on him and the judge and wetyped security up.
I called the judge.
I said, judge, here's what's up.
And he was like you know and Iworried about the judge, because
judge is like I darned.
If they want me to, got me, Ilive right here in elsa county.

Speaker 1 (01:08:24):
I'm like judge, that ain't really what I want to hear
, but anyway, he's a heck of agood guy too, man.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
I mean just mean just good public servants man.
You know you don't hear thesestories.
You only hear when there'scorruption or something kind of
a riot.
But these dudes are just goodmen who want to do the right
thing.
They put themselves in harm'sway and that's the reason I tell
that I hope I'm not divulginganything, but that happened.

(01:08:49):
It's in our rear view.
I don't think it matters.
But I mean, yeah, shane Youngshowed up, did closing arguments
on that Monday, literallyprobably had zero sleep, had
moved his wife and kids out ofthere.
Now his wife, teresa, is hisco-counsel.
I mean, she did a heck of a jobtoo.
That's awesome.
And then Jim Lukowski.

(01:09:12):
He's a retired prosecutor fromnow again bragging on these
people.
He's a retired prosecutor fromjefferson county, um.
He's in his 70s gem of a fella.
He he donated his time for thiscase.
He got paid nothing for thiscase.
So you've got the defense teamand I don't want to villainize
them they're doing their job.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
They made money, but they got paid.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Well, and then you got the prosecution team, who
one of the key, the key dudes isdonating his time.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Wow so that's why that's the only reason I tell
that story I mean, you know, Idid, maybe I'm maybe I
overdramatized it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:38):
I hope I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
No, I don't want to cause undue alarm but, but let's
.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
When I heard that my guy sent that to me, he said hey
, what do you think about this?
I'll listen to it.
I'll meet you on the phone, soI'll be back with you shortly.
Keep listening.
Yeah, and I got on the phoneand everybody was like me.
They were alarmed by that, bythat little interaction between
the hot boys yeah, and you neverknow you don't know who, you
don't know what you don't everknow they could have been
talking about anything, but theabrupt hanging up lets me know I

(01:10:05):
would have been on floor and Idon't.
Um, I wouldn't, that wouldscare me, yeah and I'm
responsible for these peopleimagine having to go back in
there and do closing when youjust had to move your family out
of there and you're not exactlysure if you're going to make it
out of the courtroom alive or Imean I took over.

(01:10:27):
uh, we transported theprosecutor, you know defense
knew about it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
I mean, you know they knew about it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
So it wasn't like we were trying to, you know, slide
the deck one way or another.
I just wanted to make sureeverybody was safe.
But anyway, that's the reason Itell that story.
That's a great insight.
I mean, that's the reason Itell that story, that's a great
insight.

Speaker 4 (01:10:52):
I mean that's a great insight.
Were there any calls?
I'm going back to the cellphone.
No, you go right ahead,detective, my mind's just
rolling.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Detective Thomas.
We know why Doug Thomas hasexcelled in police work Because
you were here telling him whatto do.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
Hey, I took care of him, I know, yeah, I told him
all where to go and what to do.

Speaker 4 (01:11:13):
That was my job.
I got paid to do it at one time, right Travis?
Yeah, I agree, I told you whereto go and what to do.
Somebody needs to know Somebodyhad to dispatch it, going back
to the 3rd, july, 3rd and 4th,and the cell phone records.
Were there any conversationscaused to or from Brooks and

(01:11:36):
Nick during that 24-hour period?
Nick went radio silent,completely Nothing even earlier
in the day he turned his phoneoff.

Speaker 3 (01:11:42):
Now you can't say that.
You can say well, it justdidn't hit any towers, but the
cell bright expert or somebody.
There was experts on both sides, but all agreed that it was
likely.
It was just no record becauseit had been turned off.

Speaker 4 (01:11:56):
No talking.
Well there was word of a burnerphone and I don't know if I've
heard that from a reporter.
If that comes through withRosemary having a burner phone,
yeah, I don't know about it.
I don't recall that it didn'tcome through the burner.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
I don't recall about that, and they really didn't
look at the triangulation of thecell phones until like 2020,
when the Attorney General'soffice got involved.
Tell me about.
Let's go to the first trial.
How long was it?

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
It was four days it started on Tuesday and ended on.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Friday and he, and now that his son was it, was it
at one time they were going totry him too right, that son?

Speaker 4 (01:12:40):
yeah, he was tried with Brooks, oh yeah, okay, so
Jason Lawson was tried first.

Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:12:44):
And then Brooks and Joey.

Speaker 5 (01:12:46):
Okay, I got you.

Speaker 3 (01:12:49):
The first trial, then I mean it was pretty cut and
dry.
It was pretty cut and dry.
I mean the defense got up andopened him arguments.
Look, we're gonna, we're gonnago ahead and admit right now to
tampering with evidence.
And that was based on SteveLawson admitting in.
You know, post Miranda, thehell.
We moved the car, I mean youthe conspiracy was what they had

(01:13:11):
a problem with, okay.
But I mean I think if you movethe car and the murder listen
again, I'm an old, dumb countryboy but it's going to be hard
for you to convince me otherwiseyou didn't know about the
murder.
That's what's funny about thisone, I think, is how did they
keep him from coming in, becauseyou know he was probably trying

(01:13:32):
to lighten his sentence.
Yeah, you know, I don't knowand I don't want to speak for
Shane on that, but I think Shanejust got so tired of the back
and the forth and the lies thathe's like no, let's go with it,
let's not risk it, let's rollwith it and see what happens.
Okay, because you know, becausepart of me looking at it is like
man, I want his testimonyagainst Brooks yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:59):
But if it was just all of a sudden, kind of If it
was Bill's, that might besomething that they bring back
in later as his testimony.

Speaker 3 (01:14:03):
Yeah, all things would be different if it does,
it'd be like, well, let's go, wealso have another guilty party
with this.
Then it might be able to linkup some later.
So, man, what a, what a wild 10years really of just who knows

(01:14:24):
what's going on.
And then all of a suddenthere's a trial, and you know,
arrest and a trial and bang.
It's like all in, like when didthey make the arrest?
Was that about this time lastyear?
Yeah, it was.
It had been, I don't know,sometime early 20, late 23,
early 24, somewhere in there, Idon't know the time.

(01:14:45):
How many times did you see likenews footage?
Especially, they went out tothe property.
They've brought backhoes outhere, you know, I don't know how
many holes that day out thereand looking.
Well, it's funny.
You say that the defensebrought in a, an expert, denny
butler, who used to be a staterepresentative and he's a

(01:15:07):
retired metro detective, and hecame in.
He was their last witness andthey basically used him to point
out all the near misses.
And you all know how it is Labreports you send stuff in hoping
for comparison, it doesn'thappen.
Or the inconclusive, yeah, yeah.
Well, they brought Butler in totestify to all the
inconclusives, to make it looklike all these countless hours

(01:15:31):
of investigation and they've yetto find the body, they've yet
to find the smoking gun, to tryto basically eliminate and
shortchange the investigation.
And Brian Butler made thestatement in closing.
He said they're just throwingstuff on the wall and hoping
it'll stick, yeah, but there's alot of stuff that's stuck, yeah

(01:15:53):
.
Now I don't know.
I hope it don't get appealed.
I'm just an old bailiff, courtbailiff, my opinion don't matter
, but you can't.
If you do appeal it ain't.
Nothing brooks how it can do.
He wrote down eight pages of atimeline, on july the third and
you've got countless witnessesthat can come in and say, well,
that didn't happen, and thatdidn't happen, and that didn't

(01:16:14):
happen you can't make that youcan argue, the cell phone stuff
you can, you can say well, themcoon hunters, it was raining,
they don't know, you know.
I mean, that was some of thestuff.
You can say the governmentwanted him arrested, whatever.
But at the end of the day itwas Brooks Houck's testimony.
Well, not his testimony, butBrooks Houck's testimony.
Well, not his testimony, butBrooks Houck's timeline.
His alibi was awful.

Speaker 4 (01:16:34):
But wasn't it more like a to-do list instead of
I've done it list?

Speaker 3 (01:16:37):
Yeah it was kind of.
He just thought of stuff thathe had done over the last few
weeks and I guess he was hopingthat John Snow, the detective,
who did a good job I mean, youknow, I felt like he did a good
job.
It's a big case and you knowhe's to be commended for his
work and he had.

(01:16:58):
You know he brought him in.
This was before Nick called himand said hey, man, get out of
there, they're trying to hangyou.
I'm paraphrasing, but he wroteout his timeline and his
timeline was awful and that'swhat the two ladies that I spoke
to, the jury members, said.
You know it was, it was bad, itwas just a bad timeline.

(01:17:18):
So but all the other littleanomalies, like the flower
pulling, and to me that was likesome evil, I mean, that's what
I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:17:25):
Even if it wasn't evil, why would you not think
she might come back?

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
yeah, I agree that's you know.

Speaker 4 (01:17:30):
You knew she would have it back or you wouldn't
pull the flowers up man but thisis a

Speaker 3 (01:17:35):
who done it, you know , and, and it's intriguing, but
I think you know, luke, I get it.
I guess there's some, somestatutory law or some case law
or some precedent that's beenset.
Both defense teams cited it.
Well, there's no crime scene,there's nobody, there's no gun,
you can't have a murder.
And I almost wanted to get upand say, look, don't insult my

(01:17:58):
intelligence.
Yeah, you know, it's been 10years.
Well, she's gone.
She ain't coming back no.

Speaker 4 (01:18:06):
I think the judge pointed that out to me, that
she's deceased.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
And you know we do have a car that was hurt.
That's not where it's supposedto be.
We have some things.
And I'll say this to the family.
I pulled Casey Ballard aside.
That's the brother.
Upmost respect for that guy.
I pulled him aside before thedefense team started on Steve
Lawson Because I knew they weregoing to get up and they were

(01:18:32):
just.
You know, they were going to dotheir job.
I pulled him aside and I said Isaid, casey, every emotion that
you've ever felt is going tocome back to you when they start
talking.
And I said you've got to keepyour folks under control.
We've come too far for amistrial.
Lock it down.
And he was crying and he puthis head on my shoulder and he
said yes sir, yes sir.

(01:18:53):
He said this is so hard.
That's just the kind of peoplethey are, man.
They don't want no notorietywith this.
I'm sure they'll get a book, amovie, I don't know, but they
don't want it.
They're just good countrypeople looking for justice.
I think the whole thing.
They won't know what happenedto their daughter.

(01:19:15):
I don't know how she picked upthe reporter.

Speaker 4 (01:19:16):
Shay.

Speaker 3 (01:19:16):
Shay McAllister.
I wonder how that landed.
I know a lot of crazy stuffgoing on in Bardstown at the
time, but I really don't thinkthey were looking to be famous.
They were just looking for help, looking for help, and she took
it.
You know Shea took it to thenext level that you know nobody

(01:19:39):
could really.
And who would have thought that?
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:19:43):
Instrumental yeah, and then they go into.

Speaker 4 (01:19:45):
TV shows and different things and her
reporting was actually it wasn'topinion she went.
You could tell that sheactually investigated, she done
investigative reporting she did,she did I mean, she was not she
, she tried.
You could tell almost that shewas wanting to make sure that

(01:20:06):
she had no bias.

Speaker 3 (01:20:07):
Yeah, I thought she did her best to try to go talk
to each one, but you know sheyou can't help, but probably
with the mother, you know, andwhen they interviewed her and
you could just hear theheartbreak, and then it was just
so strange.
Now, now I won't, I just wantsome resolve here in the other

(01:20:29):
murders.
Now, sure, sure.

Speaker 4 (01:20:31):
But I think we all do , which brings me back to I
think we all do yes, ma'am.
A gun, that was.

Speaker 3 (01:20:36):
Reporting for duty ma'am.
Yes, sir, detecting Thomas,you're doing a fine job.

Speaker 4 (01:20:40):
You're doing a fine job, fine job.
There was the gun that killedTommy.
That Valid.

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
That gun is in the police evidence.
The bullet that was found and Idon't know if this is public
knowledge and I don't know if Ishould say it, but I think
everybody knows about it but thebullet that killed Tommy has
been analyzed with the rifle.
They think that came from Nick.

(01:21:10):
The bullet that killed Tommyhas been analyzed with the rifle
.
They think that came from Nick.
You need five parameters to sayyeah, that bullet came from
that gun and the expert thatlooked at it said I can only
give you four of the fiveparameters.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
I mean, guys, that's evidence.
You know we've dealt with thatour whole careers.

Speaker 3 (01:21:28):
The near misses.
Yeah, do you go with four outof five?
What would a grand jury say?
I don't know.
You know I don't want toinfluence anybody, but that's
what I know, that's better than50%, I think that's public
knowledge, you know, so I don'tknow.
We'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:21:40):
I mean, I think there's more.

Speaker 4 (01:21:52):
I think and son yes, that's just pure evil.
No, I mean, that's just pureevil, it would have to be.

Speaker 3 (01:21:56):
I don't think it was a hunting accident.
No, I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:21:58):
I think they just threw that out there to try to,
but I think it was someoneinside that knew, yeah, that
knew where he was hunting, who,when, when he was hunting.

Speaker 3 (01:22:07):
Well you just.
There's a lot of planningthat's went into each of these
things.
And I don't know that.
The teacher and her daughter.
I don't know that that'sconnected.
I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:22:17):
I don't know that it is either.
I don't think that it is, but Idon't want to say it ain't.
I'll let the powers that beinvestigate that, you would
think a crime like that evidencewould have been left,
fingerprintsace something weknow.

Speaker 3 (01:22:31):
Tommy Ballard's sister was murdered in the 1970s
.
You didn't know that.
Yeah, that went in NelsonCounty.
So I think Nelson, maybe inWashington, but I think Nelson
County.
Yeah, she was murdered.
Wow, I think they arrested aman in that case.
But yeah, I mean this poorfamily man, the heartache that
they've had to endure.

(01:22:51):
And you know Crystal'sdaughters, of course they're
grown now, I mean almost grown.
I mean you know what they'vehad to put up with.

Speaker 5 (01:23:02):
And you know.

Speaker 3 (01:23:02):
I was glad to see.
I mean, you know I've been inNelson County some and I know a
few people there, but I was gladto see and again this is
unprecedented the town lined upto greet them as they came back
through.
I saw a photo of.

Speaker 4 (01:23:21):
Maybe the courthouse there lit up in pink.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
I mean I think everybody knows that the verdict
was correct and they werecelebrating a belief in our
justice system.

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
Yeah, we needed that.

Speaker 5 (01:23:33):
We did, we did these wins, we did and you know, we as
police officers, we getdefeated.

Speaker 3 (01:23:37):
We get over it, you know.
But now the public needed tosee that our justice system.
We got our problems, but it'sstill the best justice system in
the world, Absolutely Bestcountry in the world.
We got people lining up to getin this country because they
want to write to a fair trial.
You don't get that in Mexicotoo.

Speaker 4 (01:23:54):
The cartel wants to kill that day, but here you got
representation.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
You know.
So hey, we complain about it,I've complained about it, but
the reality is we got a goodjustice system.

Speaker 4 (01:24:05):
Nick was mentioned a lot, and even Amber Bowman, his
girlfriend, was a witness.
What did you think about hertestimony?

Speaker 3 (01:24:16):
I thought she did a good job.
She's very nervous.
Her dad was also supposed totestify.
He ended up not testifying.
I guess they felt like theymade their points with Amber,
the prosecution, but theybrought Amber in to testify that
.
You know where was Nick?
She said I don't know.
I called him 15 times, hedidn't answer, went straight to
voicemail.
And you know my mom, my dad,because there was a timeline,

(01:24:39):
they had to be out.
They had sold their house orhad rented the house that they
were in and they were moving toanother one, a fixer-upper.
She wasn't happy about it.
She admitted that on the stand.
She said I wasn't happy aboutit and I really wasn't happy
that he's supposed to help meand my dad move and he was
nowhere to be found that wasthis on the this was july the
third, going into july thefourth, so she got up and she

(01:25:02):
got up and testified to that.
I don't know that, I don't thinkthey're still together, but but
I mean that's to me prettycompelling evidence that that
brother was probably involved,or you know.

Speaker 4 (01:25:13):
I mean it's circumstantial, but a lot of
this is anyway yeah, and I'massuming that was not normal for
him to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:25:20):
No, well, the prosecutor said you know, look
here, he is a police officer.
We're all police officers, youknow, we're not really ever off
duty, so for us to be away fromour phone it's kind of
significant.
Yes, I feel weird, you know,not having it on, or if my
battery gets like oh gosh, Igotta get this plugged up.

(01:25:41):
You know, um, you don't want tomiss that call or want to miss
the.
You know so especially, butit's uh, I mean you know it?
it was not with your wife oryour significant other.
You definitely want to be ableto make sure it's on and where
you need.
So I was.
I was proud of my band of merrymen, you know, they three of

(01:26:03):
them because warren county socouldn't really provide other
than the drone.
They couldn't really providephysical security for the
parking lot.
And again, you know my thoughtson parking lots and I had three
of my guys were in the heat, itwas hot and those guys were out
there.
You know, making sureeverybody's safe in the parking
lot, getting everybody in.
What I wanted to avoid was awitness showing up in a parking

(01:26:26):
lot and meandering around theparking lot not knowing where to
go.
I'm not trying to make thismore than what it is, but I
wanted, as soon as they arrivedon the property, I wanted one of
my people to get them out oftheir car and get them in the
door, screen them and then getthem upstairs where they need to
go.
Yeah, and it worked flawlessly.
And that's not me, that's mypeople that did a great job.

Speaker 4 (01:26:47):
One of the weirdest things and that's a big deal.
It is a big deal when you'vegot a witness in this large of a
case.

Speaker 3 (01:26:52):
We got the defense.
We did the same thing for thedefense.
We let them park in the back ofthe courthouse and we got them
in the back door and theprosecutors wanted to make sure
everybody was safe because therehad been instances where some
of the family had been somealtercations with some former
attorneys, so the family hadbeen some altercations with some
former attorneys.
So you know, I mean I didn'twant anybody getting hurt.

(01:27:13):
So again, this ain't about me,but we tried to make sure
everybody was safe.
So one of the weirdest thingsbeing involved in some decently
big trials you know nothing onthis, but locally having to be
witnesses on a trial and gettingsent in to the other, usually

(01:27:34):
if there's a lot of people, alot of witnesses, we've sat
together and it is a weirdfeeling.
Going I'm on the looks thatthey give and then it's a weird
Was y'all able to separate thewitnesses?
Are they y'all we train?
That's a tough Well.
Was y'all able to separate thewitnesses, or are they y'all we
trained?

Speaker 1 (01:27:53):
Because that's a tough Well we trained nonverbal,
you know, watch the.

Speaker 3 (01:27:59):
Yeah, we had an instance where a detective got
up and he got out of the jurybox and he walked around in
front of the jury box to pointto something on the TV which was
positioned behind him.
Well, his gun.
You know how the blazer has acut in the back?
Well, his gun had got in thatcut and his gun was exposed and

(01:28:21):
you know he swirled around andended up.
He was right in front of BrooksHouck.
So me and my two boys that sawit, we immediately got on our
feet.
Now we didn't make a big dealabout it, but we got on our feet
so we could be vigilant toaddress it.
But the gun was almost withinarm's reach of Brooks Houck.
Those are little things.
We try to watch out for.

(01:28:42):
The detective.
He was focused on the evidenceand presenting it to the jury.
He had no idea his gun wasexposed at the back of his
jacket.
But little stuff like that tous is paramount.
But we watch.
We call it scripting.
We watch the defendant.
We watch their eyes.
Where are their hands when wewalk by?

(01:29:05):
Are they looking at our gun?
If you remember a few years agoin Harlan County when ATF took
a guy down there, remember theguy who put the bombs in the
cell phone camera in the remotecameras, yeah Well see.
part of his deal was I'll takeyou back to the woods and show
you where the other cameras are.
Well, that was nothing morethan a ploy for him to go out

(01:29:26):
there and go after a gun, andthey shot and killed him, yeah.
So I have to think about it.
I have that knowledge going in,so I have to plan for that
contingency.
I'm not saying Brooks Happ wasgoing to do that, but I have to
plan it if he would.
So there's just a lot of littlethings that come into play.
How many witnesses do you thinktestified in this one?

(01:29:46):
I want to say probably 55 or 60.

Speaker 1 (01:29:49):
I would say probably over 60.
You have that many witnesses.

Speaker 3 (01:29:52):
they can't be in the courtroom until they're called
and there's not a lot of room toput them folks.

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
I know they probably came at different days, but the
times I've had that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:03):
It's only been like a one two-day jury.

Speaker 5 (01:30:06):
How many witnesses did you have in a certain?

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
day.
Well, you know the most, pattyHall she was the victim's
advocate did a remarkable job,just a great lady.
She kind of coordinated that.
That's good.
She was talking with Shane, theprosecutor, every day and they
were kind of planning ahead Okay, we'll probably make it to this
point.
So kudos to them on that.
They handled that.

Speaker 2 (01:30:29):
We just made sure they got in and out okay, but
they, they kind of managed thatbecause you know okay defense is
calling these.

Speaker 3 (01:30:35):
Defense is calling these alright, prosecution's
calling and.
I know you got days like whenit's a one, two day and all the
witnesses are the defense andthe they're all together.
Yeah, that's some strange timesin there.
You know what I?

Speaker 5 (01:30:48):
mean it's true In the federal system we have separate
rooms, separate rooms.

Speaker 3 (01:30:52):
Yeah, and they had that.

Speaker 5 (01:30:54):
That's good, because we were all just in the other
courtroom just sitting therelike we had an instance in the
first trial.

Speaker 3 (01:30:59):
And again, I like Shane and I ended up developing
a likeness for the defenseattorney for Steve Lawson
Darren's his first name I'd haveto go back and look, but anyway
what his last name is.
But he and Shane they justdidn't like each other and you
could tell and they were.
Darren had an issue and hejumped up and he said you're all

(01:31:23):
right, he can't do that.
And Shane turned and wheeledaround at him and I could just
tell you know, well, they wentto the bench and the judge kind
of come up out of his seat totell them to settle down, settle
down, and they wouldn't listento him.
So I just kind of walked upthere between them, I put my arm
around both of them and Ipolitely turned them toward the
judge.
But you know, emotions run highand I didn't want nobody

(01:31:46):
getting you know.

Speaker 1 (01:31:47):
I didn't want nobody fisting a cup in there, so you
know.

Speaker 3 (01:31:50):
I mean, it's a very insignificant thing I did, but I
just put my arm around both ofthem and kind of turned them.
Okay, boys, settle down now,it's okay.
Shane laughed about it laterand so did Darren.
But you know, darren did a goodjob.
He and a guy by the name ofZach Booker out of Lexington
represented Steve Lawson, andthey did a good job.
I mean that's.
You know.
I have to say All you want is afair trial.

Speaker 5 (01:32:12):
I mean honestly, you want good representation and
they had it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
You know, there may be some things that get appealed
, but it won't be because it wasinsufficient defense Right.
Every one of those defenseattorneys and their staff are
very professional.
Good, good, I'm hoping this isput to rest.
I, but I'm hoping this is putto rest.
I'm hoping you know at leastthis section of it.
The problem is there's fourmore that we know of right and
then maybe more.

(01:32:36):
I think there was a body foundin another county about the same
time.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Yeah, I mean it's certainly.
We're hoping for some closure,for some more than just this.

Speaker 4 (01:32:48):
So we'll see what happens.
Going back to the jurors, thejudge allowed them to ask
questions too.

Speaker 3 (01:32:53):
He did.
It's kind of a it's more commonthan what I knew and it's all
above board.
When a witness would get on thestand, the jury could write
down a question on a piece ofpaper.
They would hand it to thebailiff because the judge would
always say any questions of thewitness from the jury and if

(01:33:14):
they had a question they'd raisetheir paper.
The bailiff would go get it,take it to the judge, the
defense and prosecution wouldcome, the white noise and they
would read the question to eachother and talk about it and if
it was an admissible questionthen he would ask it to the
witness.
And there were some goodquestions and you can kind of

(01:33:35):
tell what the jury's thinking bythe way.
They asked the question.

Speaker 4 (01:33:39):
That was another thing.

Speaker 5 (01:33:41):
Probably, defense was probably like oh gosh, Another
something silly that we do and Idon't know.

Speaker 3 (01:33:46):
You probably think we're a bunch of corny bailiffs,
and I'd say Duke Thomas does ittoo.
It's just when you're locked upin a courthouse all day you
just find things to entertainyourself, but we try to pick.
I won't say we bet, but we tryto pick.
Who the former of the jury isgoing to be, you know.
You just study human behavior.
Who makes them laugh, you knowwho opens the door for the

(01:34:09):
ladies, who does the littlethings that on vote day, who's?
You know, let's see.
And so I want to brag.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
Who's the natural leader?
I?

Speaker 3 (01:34:17):
didn't naturally pick the foreman of the jury.
I mean, you won, I won, yeah, Iwon.
I pointed it out to my boys atime or two too.

Speaker 5 (01:34:26):
Do you all usually?
I mean, actually it happenedtoday about who's going to be
the grand jury for me did youpick it?
I didn't pick it, but they,drew, said, who do you think it
should be?
I said what do you got?
I said I think it should besome farmer somewhere.
We don't have no farmer, whynot?

Speaker 3 (01:34:46):
I said really no, I mean, you know it's just we all
do it as cops.
Most of the time we do it wedon't even realize we're doing
it, but it's just studying humanbehavior and their actions and
interaction with others.
And you know that's a leader,that's not a leader.

Speaker 5 (01:35:00):
Well, you can use it when they come through there.
You can almost pick them out.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:35:05):
Just how they carry themselves.

Speaker 4 (01:35:15):
Just like you said, said the little things that they
do, yeah.
So, yeah, it's interesting itis, but I never I.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
So the jury was pretty attentive, it sounds like
.
It sounds like they were very,very one juror.
Remember that that was kind ofsleep young fella and he didn't.
He didn't make the final cut,he got to let go and in the you
know they did 15 15 set throughthe direction of the trial, but
three were cut the morning of,so you had three alternates.
Yeah, three alternates.
How was jury selection in thatWas?
It pretty took a whole day.

Speaker 4 (01:35:39):
The whole day of it was really long.

Speaker 3 (01:35:40):
Yeah, it was Now in the Lawson, the first trial.
We were ready to open anargument day one after lunch.
Wow, you know, and typicallythat's the way most trials go,
you know you've already got yourjury selection, then have lunch
and then come back and away wego.
But on the HALP trial it tookall day and we started the
following day on openings.

Speaker 5 (01:36:00):
Wow, and did they do like an individual by there?
Yeah, kind of.

Speaker 3 (01:36:06):
They did a lot of that, more so when the HAL.

Speaker 5 (01:36:08):
When did they separate?

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
them.
Yeah, there was some separation.
He split them up into groupsand had a certain group come
back at a certain time and therewas a lot of white noise that
day.
He didn't want one witnesshearing what another witness
said and the reason why they'dform their opinion.
Yeah, you know, I'll neverforget.
I was sitting in a jury trialone time and the old boy spoke
up.

(01:36:30):
When the judge asked him do youknow the police officer?
He said yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:36:33):
I know him.

Speaker 3 (01:36:33):
He said it's true, so you know, judges try to keep
that blur from having an issuecoming out.
They try to control that.
But yeah, I thought Judge Samhandled it very well.
He put a lot of thought into it.
You know he's a Nelson Countyguy.

(01:36:54):
He loves Nelson County.
He knows people are talkingabout his county.
I thought he did a great job.
I complimented him severaltimes.
We texted him today.
He's a friend of mine now and Igot a lot of respect for him.
Lisa, she was getting ready to,she was on federal jury duty

(01:37:15):
and she knows she was making bigbucks.

Speaker 5 (01:37:18):
Yeah, what did I make ?
$20?
No, it's.
It's $80, right, it'd be goodjust to get a job as a federal
jury.

Speaker 3 (01:37:29):
She was there and they were like do you know any
of the prosecutors here?
Well, I know the USAA there, Iknow him and I know the witness.
I mean, it was prison butthey're like, well, how do you
know?
Well, I went to high schoolwith him and that's my cousins.

Speaker 5 (01:37:54):
Yeah, well, when you went, to high school, did you
all?
I was like.
They were really like did youall date or did you get personal
stuff?
Yeah, they study.
I mean both sides study.

Speaker 3 (01:38:05):
They get on Facebook account.
They try to get an idea forwhat you're thinking.
They do their due diligence.
I just never get.
I've never even, I've neverbeen called to jury baby you
will.

Speaker 5 (01:38:20):
I've got the letter from the feds.
I have too.

Speaker 3 (01:38:23):
And did all the questionnaire stuff, and I would
love to do it.
Actually I think it would be.

Speaker 5 (01:38:30):
I think I told Drew today.
I said if I had to sit on ajury that I would want to be on
the grand jury.
Yeah, that's where you get themost.
To me it's quick too.

Speaker 3 (01:38:43):
Yes, it is Mama.
You got any other questions?

Speaker 4 (01:38:49):
I think you've covered a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:38:52):
I think you've done great, uh oh chief going to
chime in for those that don'tknow what's the motive that he
had the, or a theory that maybethe only thing that was ever
coming out was he made a couplestatements that he wouldn't lose
Eli.

Speaker 3 (01:39:11):
Okay, I think the thinking was, if he separated
from Crystal, that she'd getcustody of the kid and he'd
never see him again.
I'm saying by now he's probablywishing he'd have went to child
support.

Speaker 4 (01:39:21):
Yeah, Was she not?
She was suspecting him ofcourting on her or cheating on
her, correct?

Speaker 3 (01:39:28):
Yeah, I don't know that never really came out.
I don't know that never reallycame out.
I don't know.
I mean I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:39:34):
I don't really, I don't think I know she was.

Speaker 3 (01:39:36):
I don't know if that's good she was the
bookkeeper for his operation andthere's been some allegation
that maybe he had some corruptstuff going on.
I don't know.
That's never been proven.
That proven, that's what theybrought up in the podcast.
I think she overheard someconversations between the
brothers that might have had todo something with something else

(01:39:57):
.
That's what I suspected.

Speaker 4 (01:40:04):
Maybe she knew something more than what anybody
knows.

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
She knew Nobody spoke in sentencing for Brooks or Joy
Lawson.
The verdict was delivered and Isaw no emotion from the mama.
The sister was a little takenback, but not Her husband sat
there and shoot his gun, youknow, and I mean.

Speaker 5 (01:40:26):
Do you think it's plausible, somewhere down the
road, that Mama and them couldbe?

Speaker 3 (01:40:36):
I mean it's plausible , I think.
I think it's easy.

Speaker 1 (01:40:40):
There's none of that in co-conspirators now.

Speaker 3 (01:40:42):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:40:44):
And they're still investigating those other
murders, so I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:40:47):
I mean, you know, I don't know.
I don't want to say for sure, Idon't want to say I'm in the
know, I give an opinion, likeyou all do I just love for there
to be for that, for everybodyinvolved, for jason, his family,
uh, for those two, uh, themother daughter.
I just want, I just like tohave some justice done and some

(01:41:09):
resolve.

Speaker 5 (01:41:10):
So that's all I got.

Speaker 3 (01:41:13):
What a great insight.
Probably put people to sleep.

Speaker 4 (01:41:18):
No, this is fun Very interesting, very interesting,
and you being there, youactually witnessing a security
in the courtroom.
You know, because none of thiswas televised, none of this, you
know you had reports.

Speaker 3 (01:41:34):
But you know, and I'm partly the blame on that,
because I was on, I was injudges ears.
I think that's probably you knowhe cited some other reasons,
which I'm fine with, and but Itold him just let's not allow no
cameras in the courtroom.
And he said, darren, I've nevernot allowed that to happen.
I said I understand that, butlet's just on this one.
And then he did.
He told them and the mediafollowed him and he said this

(01:41:58):
has turned into a circus.
I've never seen anything likethis.
I think he testified or nottestified.
I think he quoted in hishearing that he had been
involved in something like over10,000 cases and he said I've
never seen one rise to the levelof circus that this one has
rose to.
Yeah, it could have easilyturned into OJ Simpson type of
deal.

Speaker 1 (01:42:19):
Yeah, I mean, let's not let the people know who the
witnesses are or who the victimsare.

Speaker 3 (01:42:24):
Let's keep that, as I mean I know it's public record
eventually, but while it'shappening, let's.
And you know it did kind oftake the wind out of the sails
of the media.
I learned a lot about the mediaduring that time because there
were no big trucks sittingoutside.
You know they would get, theywould get uh, pictures of the
lobby and the courtroom as itwas empty, for reference, and
then they you'll like this storyand we can end with this.

(01:42:45):
But they had a sketch artistcome in and you know I guess I'm
kind of a weirdo, I thoughtit'd be pretty cool to have a
sketch artist come in and youknow, I guess I'm kind of a
weirdo, I thought it'd be prettycool to have a sketch artist of
McGraw-Mee you know I'm goingto record baby.
I thought it'd be pretty cool.
Dude, I'm going to hurt you andme and McGraw-Mee and I'm like,
oh, painting, like one of yourFrench girls.

Speaker 5 (01:43:06):
You know, she was a Titanic.
She was a Western student.

Speaker 3 (01:43:15):
And I guess I'm sure she got paid handsomely for her
services because a lot of thosenews outlets they paid her, I'm
sure, so they could havereference when they were talking
about who testified.
About midway through the firstweek I went up to her and I said
, hey, would you draw me?
I mean, this poor girl, thispoor girl ain't got no
personality, she's all businessand she wouldn't draw.

(01:43:38):
And she had a book up in frontof her face like she wouldn't
pay attention to the mosthistoric trial in Kentucky in
the last 30 years, so she's.
I said hey, would you considerdrawing me?
She said I only draw important,you know.
So she's, I said.
I said hey, would you considerall me?
She said I only draw importantpeople so I said he's that old
there that I used to think he'skind of important now my mind

(01:43:59):
goes back to that moment.
You know well, I'm not important.
You go up to Kings Island andyou'll be important to somebody
there for about 20 bucks.
I'll wear my bailiff uniform,I'll get an action photo, but
yeah, that's sure enough.
She said you're not importantso I don't want to draw
important people.
And you know what?
She didn't even laugh when shesaid it.

(01:44:23):
Little tidbits of that Iprocessed really uh, huh okay
thank you, man, that I processedreally Uh-huh, I really am Okay
.
Thank you, man, have a safe day, oh my gosh, but yeah it's been
good hanging out with you all.
All right, the next one.
This has been great.
Hey, I love these.
Yeah, man, let's do it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:40):
You know I'll tell you what I love.

Speaker 3 (01:44:42):
I don't know what will be bigger.
The next one coming?
You, you know, I don't knowwild trial.
When's it expected?
Well, you know, he uh, Ihaven't heard.
He was due to have hiscompetency hearing on june the
27th and judge cobran felt likeit'd be two, three, four weeks
before he got word and he saidhe would let me know because the

(01:45:05):
initial hearings will takeplace in whitesburg.
Yeah, but I know there will bea change of menu.
Feel like there will, do youthink?

Speaker 5 (01:45:13):
they'll move it all the way to Bowdoin Green.
I don't know If you move themall the way.
That's a four-hour drive.

Speaker 1 (01:45:18):
The only reason.

Speaker 3 (01:45:18):
I said Bowdoin Green and I should clarify I don't
have any inside information foranybody that's listening.
The only reason I said BowdoinGreen?
Because you've got JackieSteele as the prosecutor and
you've got Jeremy Bartlett asthe defense attorney, and that's
where they moved Logan's trial.
Yes, so I'm just assuming thatthey would be okay with that
venue location and it's a goodplace to have a trial.

(01:45:39):
You've got plenty of hotels,it's a good courtroom, you've
got good security.

Speaker 2 (01:45:43):
Neutral ground.

Speaker 3 (01:45:44):
Yeah, and you've got places to eat, so it's a good
town to have.
Now I don't know, that's justmy opinion.
Yeah, I haven't heard anything.
Judge coran hasn't said whereit's going to be.
But the judge coran, he's agood man.
He'll do a great job, he'llmanage it appropriately and
we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 (01:46:04):
That'll be coming soon, yeah that'll be a wobble
Interesting.
Another big trial.

Speaker 3 (01:46:11):
Coming up Whitley County, you remember the zip tie
case.
You know where the three peoplewere found murdered with a zip
tie around their throat and justzip tied to death and bound.
That's going to trial.
That guy was ruled incompetentto stand trial so it'll be a
bench trial and that's coming up.

Speaker 1 (01:46:30):
That's coming up this fall and Judge Winchester has
asked, has asked us to come downand assist, so maybe maybe I
can come in and give you someinsight on that that'd be,
that'd be a, that'd be a wildway, and there was, like a
teenage boy that was killed inthat one man, that was just
awful.

Speaker 3 (01:46:48):
I mean that was awful .
Yeah, look at them.
But anyway, we'll see whathappens.
We've got a lot going on,there's enough wisdom at this
table, excluding me to run asmall country.
That's just what I'd say.

Speaker 2 (01:46:59):
Straight into the ground, all hearts and minds
clear.
All right, catch us on the nextone, outro Music.