June 9, 2025 • 27 mins
Wrestling with how to love someone living contrary to biblical teaching while maintaining your faith convictions may be one of the most challenging situations Christians face today.
Pastor Jonge Tate joins us to tackle this difficult conversation with wisdom, grace, and biblical clarity. What begins as a discussion about a real situation in their church community quickly reveals that multiple families are navigating these exact waters with their loved ones. This isn't happening "out there" - it's happening within our churches and families.
Through thoughtful dialogue, we explore what it means to hold firmly to biblical truth while extending genuine, Christ-like love. Pastor Jonge draws our attention to Jesus himself, who regularly dined with society's outcasts while never compromising truth. The question becomes not whether to engage, but how to engage as faithful representatives of Christ.
We tackle practical questions too: How do we maintain relationship without compromising conviction? And perhaps most importantly, we examine our own misconceptions about our role in others' salvation journeys. As Jess vulnerably shares her attempts to "make" a friend accept Jesus by hiding Bibles in his car, Pastor Jonge gently redirects: "Can you even make him change?"
Don't miss part two dropping next Monday where we continue this important conversation about living as salt and light in a complex world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jess (00:03):
Hey, welcome back, or welcome to the Jesus Fix it
podcast, the show where we talkabout life, the ups, the downs,
a little pop culture andeverything in between.
Steph (00:12):
I'm Jess and I'm Steph, every other week we dive into
the things we're asking Jesus tofix.
And let's be real, there's alot.
You can always count on us tokeep it real.
Jess (00:24):
Share some laughs with us and maybe a few tears, as we
tackle the big and small stuffwith faith and honesty.
So grab your coffee and let'sget into it.
All right, steph?
Yes, we have company today, wedo.
Okay, now we're hospitable,right?
Yes, I think so, you think so,I hope so, okay, I think we are
but we're going to let our guestintroduce himself.
(00:45):
I mean, he's used to talking topeople, he can do it.
Pastor Jonge (00:49):
He's pretty nice so far.
Pretty nice so far, yeah, sofar.
Jess (00:54):
Let's see how this goes.
Welcome, by the way.
Pastor Jonge (00:58):
Thanks for having me Appreciate the opportunity to
be here with you two ladies,and I'm excited to see what God
does with us this morning.
My name is John G Tate.
I live in Bedford, virginia.
I currently serve as one of thepastors at Bedrock Community
Church, a church that wasfounded 16 years ago by myself
and several men, excited to seewhat God wants to do with us
(01:19):
today.
Jess (01:20):
Okay, but we have to stop him just for a second, because I
heard John G, but that's notright.
I was corrected and soeverybody else has to be
corrected too.
In case you didn't hearcorrectly, it's not John G,
period.
Steph (01:37):
Or John space G no.
Pastor Jonge (01:39):
No, it is not.
It is J-O-N-G-E, it's all oneword.
My mom made it up.
Yes, I was born in Germany.
My father was 22 years AirForce before he became a pastor,
surrendered to that call.
I'm seventh generation pastorin my family, but there in the
military base in Bitburg,germany, my mom knew somebody,
(01:59):
or in some circles with somebody.
Their son was named John andmaybe a middle, initial or last
name was G or something.
And so you know how you.
You know you're in trouble whenyour mama calls you by the
first, middle and last name orsomething like that.
So it got all slammed together.
My mom liked the ring of John Gand so she you know J-O-N-G-E,
put it to paper and that's myname so it's not john space g.
(02:25):
Uh, I have a friend whoconstantly refers to me as john
g and I'm like, okay, what's up,larry, how you doing this
morning.
And he goes, oh, I see what youdid there.
I'm like, yeah, just justbungee, just slam it all
together.
Jess (02:38):
One word john g and you are saying it with your whole
chest.
I like it, hey, it's ouridentity.
Pastor Jonge (02:43):
You know what I'm saying it with your whole chest,
I like it.
Hey, it's our identity.
You know what I'm saying?
It's our name, I like it.
Jess (02:49):
I like it and I like the see, I like unique.
It's very I like it.
Pastor Jonge (02:54):
Oh, I get, I get Jorge, I get Yongie G, I get, I
got all kinds of stuff.
We traveled to Nicaragua and domissions down there and the
woman down there used to call me.
Jess (03:06):
Wongay Tate.
I'm like what.
I'm not even Right.
Pastor Jonge (03:11):
I don't even know what I'm like.
There's no way that you get youknow.
In Spanish it says Wongay Tate.
Jess (03:17):
I have no idea, okay All right.
Well, thank you for that.
I just had to put that outthere because it's so different.
I like it, I like different.
Yeah, my son, his name isCameron and he's like can you
(03:37):
just give me something otherthan Cameron?
And I said nope, this is what Ilike and this is what you got.
What would you call yourself?
And he said Cam Right is what Ilike and this is what you got.
What would you call?
Pastor Jonge (03:45):
yourself.
And he said Cam Right, that'swhat everybody calls me Well you
know you couldn't come up withanything other than Cam.
Jess (03:50):
So what do you?
Yeah, so I like it.
Your mom, she did good.
Pastor Jonge (03:54):
That's right, she did good.
Yep, she did good, all right,thank you.
Jess (03:59):
So we're just going to.
But you know straight up, ifyou have young ones listening
right now, the conversation mayget a little heavy.
Yes, it may not be suitable foryoung ears today.
Just want to let you knowstraight up.
Steph (04:13):
We're going to let you decide what young is, but I
think if maybe we were putting arating on this, the
conversation today is heavy, butit is one that we know so many
people are wrestling with.
Jess (04:26):
Yeah, I would say, if you have elementary age kids, would
you say, john Jay, if you haveelementary kids, maybe they're
not ready for this conversation.
Pastor Jonge (04:36):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I would say that if you haveelementary age kids in the
public school, they're hearingthese words.
Jess (04:43):
They're already hearing these words.
Pastor Jonge (04:46):
And as a father of four, I always my wife and I
always took the stand that wewanted our kids to hear words
from us first, because the worldand punk Satan have done a
really good job of skewing thewords and twisting them to mean
different things, and so wealways took the approach of hey,
let's be the first ones whohelped them understand what
(05:09):
certain words mean before theyhear it in a locker room or in
the hallways or when a teachersteps out of the classroom, or
something like that.
So, so yeah.
Jess (05:19):
All right, so there you go .
If you want to listen to thisconversation first and then let
your kids listen, then this isyour not warning, but your
parental advisory.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, so you guys were.
Well, steph, you were tellingme about a conversation of
(05:46):
conversation.
Pastor Jonge (05:46):
Yeah, so we're a church of small groups and we're
currently in a season wherewe're starting to gather some
people in the church who aren'tnecessarily connected to a group
yet but want to be.
So we started something calledthe Hub that met on Monday
nights just trying to connectpeople, and so Steph and her
husband joined us and we weretalking about being salt and
light.
It was the topic of the messagethat we had just preached in
(06:09):
our Go series from Matthew andhow we, as followers of Jesus,
are to be salt and light, reallyhow the scriptures tells us
that we already are Jesus saysyou are light of the world.
You don't have to muster it upand go out in the morning and be
that.
You already are as my followers.
So just go live it and walk init.
So we were walking through that.
(06:30):
It was probably nine or sopeople in our small group that
night and so, prodded, I wouldsay, by the Holy Spirit, off of
a conversation that I hadrecently had with somebody in
the church who was asking somehard questions about a family
member who was choosing to livean alternative lifestyle At this
(06:52):
point, hadn't yet gone tosurgical measures but was really
struggling with identity, whothey were and there's lots of
factors that play into that ofcould be abuse as a child.
I mean all of that stuff I'mnot privy to necessarily when
this question got poised to meand so I dropped it in life
(07:17):
group that night to say hey whatwould you guys do?
What would you say to a followerof Jesus who has a family
member who's choosing to liveopposed to what the scriptures
teach?
And she was like what do I do?
How do I love my family member?
(07:37):
Well, in the name of JesusChrist, without condoning their
apparent sin.
So that's what we dropped inthe group that night.
Steph (07:48):
Yeah, and what was very interesting, as we were having
this conversation, like nine ofus that were there.
Two of the families there inaddition to this one you're
talking about, said yep, I'vegot family members that are also
dealing with this same identitysituation.
Pastor Jonge (08:04):
It was.
It was really interesting, andthese aren't like distant
relatives.
These were close people intheir family who were either
actively involved in ahomosexual relationship or
struggling, perhaps, withsame-sex attraction, and it was
just really interesting becauseit brought the reality of this
(08:27):
context to our life group to gooh wow, this isn't something
that's happening over there orout there or in some other place
.
No, no, no, no.
This is happening right herewithin us and in our lives, and
we have to face it.
We have to look at it and takea look at how we go and be the
(08:51):
light that Jesus says we are.
Jess (08:53):
Yeah, I guess for me it's never as a believer, I've never
once looked at a homosexualperson or a transgender person
and thought I'm going to be rudeto them or dislike them.
(09:15):
I don't agree with theirlifestyle, but I've never once
thought I'm going to be rude ordislike them in any type of way.
But I've seen other Christiansautomatically not every
Christian, please hear me when Isay this, but I've
automatically.
I've seen other Christiansautomatically say you don't
(09:38):
belong here, you don't belong inthe church, I'm going to
automatically turn you away.
God doesn't love you.
I've seen that.
What do you think about that?
Pastor Jonge (09:52):
Yeah, one.
I think we have to rememberthat we're all fallen, and I
guess I would start by sayingthis for those listening I'm
coming from a heart that numberone holds a high view of God,
(10:14):
god's authority, god'ssovereignty over all of his
creation.
And so with that, I also have adeep conviction and a very high
view of God's Word as truth,that it's all breathed out by
the Almighty and it's useful forcorrection, for training, for
(10:37):
teaching, for the word rebuke,all of those things God's word
is useful for.
And then there's also aresponsibility for us as
followers of Christ, hisfollowers, to take the truth of
the good news of the gospel ofJesus Christ to those who are in
darkness, to those who are inneed of, confused by struggling
(11:01):
with sin, with identity who theyare in Christ and trying to
find themselves.
All we, like sheep, have goneastray.
We are all very capable ofmessing up.
Nobody had to teach me how tolie Nobody had to teach me how
to steal To the mom who's outthere going my baby's so cute
(11:23):
and so special.
I'm like wait till fourth grade.
Wait till they get to it Justwait, just wait.
They're going to come home andthey're going to say words and
you're going to be like who toldyou that we're just all capable
of sin?
We've all fallen, so we're allin need of God's love, we're all
in need of a Savior, which isthe message of John 3.16,.
But it's also the message ofJohn 3.17, that God loved us,
(11:49):
but yet he loved us and he sentChrist to die on the cross for
us so that we could be justified, we could be set free from our
lives, the flesh that's sowicked, our lives, the flesh
(12:10):
that's so wicked.
And so I think we step intolife too.
We step into these circles inwhich we're living, armed with
truth but yet full of grace, totake God's Word where it is so
desperately needed in pockets ofdarkness.
And I think we all have a withthat that we're born in sin.
We all have a certainpropensity towards certain sins.
(12:34):
And everybody's different,everybody's thumbprint.
Not a single thumbprint is thesame which is insane to think
about, but yet it's so very true.
So I think we're armed withtruth and grace from God's word
as we step into that.
Jess (12:50):
Do you know what I find myself and I know you'll find
also.
You'll find that we're all overthe place.
But do you know what I findmyself explaining to a lot of my
other believer friends andpeople in my church is when they
see me with one of my friendswho is homosexual, or if I'm
(13:12):
being nice to there's a personthat goes to our church who is
openly transgender and for themost part people are kind, but
people who are friends with thatperson we find ourselves
explaining to other believersand other members in our church
(13:36):
that we're not endorsing thatbehavior just because we are
kind to them.
We're not condoning thatbehavior just because we're kind
, just because we show themcompassion.
But we are still called to lovepeople even though we don't
(13:56):
condone their sin.
How do we continually pleadthat, tell people that, or do we
just continue just to show thelove of Jesus and just say, look
, either you get it or you don't?
Do you know what I mean?
Pastor Jonge (14:12):
I do know what you mean and I think, Jess, at the
end of the day, who are we?
We're followers of Jesus.
So what I love about God's wordis we have this opportunity to
go.
Okay.
Was Jesus in these scenes?
Was Jesus in scenes aroundpeople who were sinners, and
(14:33):
what does his word teach us fromthat?
There are several places in thegospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John where we see these momentswith Jesus.
I think about Jesus going toMatthew's house in Matthew,
chapter 9, where it says thathe's sitting with tax collectors
(14:55):
and sinners.
And you have the outsidePharisees who are looking on
this scene going how dare you?
What are you doing?
Who are you?
You've got Jesus at Levi'shouse.
This is Mark, chapter 2, Luke,chapter 5.
Once again, sitting with taxcollectors.
(15:15):
These are hated people.
Tax collectors were someruthless people and vile that
people did not want to hang outwith, and the scriptures teach
us that Jesus was a friend ofsinners.
And so you go, okay.
How can we then step into thesinner's world, where they are,
(15:42):
meet them where they are withthe truth?
That means we're going to haveto go hang out with them.
That means we're going to haveto go be in their sphere,
befriend them.
Jesus was eating dinner withthem, and so I think that when I
walk away from that, I go okay,if Jesus were here today, he
would know transgenders, hewould know people who are
(16:04):
struggling with same-sexattraction, he would know people
by name who are perhapsactively in homosexual
relationships.
He would be taking the light,the truth of the good news of
who he is to those people.
And so we can't just go okay.
Well, I'm not comfortable withthat sin, as I am comfortable
(16:27):
with my own sin, and sotherefore, I'm not going to
associate or run from or I'mgoing to picket against.
No, I don't think we can dothat.
I think we have to take thelight and his love to them and
stand on what it says.
And I think, at the end of theday, the gospel is extremely
offensive.
Let's be honest.
(16:47):
It's very offensive.
Jess (16:49):
But, it's supposed to be but the good news is.
Steph (16:51):
The good news is is we don't have to be so.
Thinking about that.
Part of that conversation thathappened in the small group was
if you've got a relative that istransgender to be and says,
okay, I no longer want to beknown as sally, I now want to be
called sam.
(17:12):
The offensive conversation thenhow, as a christian, are we
approaching this and are wesaying, okay, well, well, I want
to love you in the steps thatyou're walking in right now, but
I don't agree by calling youSam when you were born Sally.
Pastor Jonge (17:36):
Yeah, yeah, and that was a situation that we
were talking about, because thatwas a real life question that
came up, and so this person hadhad conversations that erupted
explosively.
It was met with, you know you,christian bigot, pointing
fingers.
Who are you?
You don't know me, you don'tknow what I've been through.
You know there's always a storybehind the story and you don't
(18:01):
know that story.
That's behind the story untilyou go sit down, have
conversations that are lovingand I want to hear you.
And so immediately I'm sittingthere with this person and I
immediately thought of arelative who had a when their
son was young I'm saying, likeyou know, it's old enough to
talk, maybe four years old,something like that and became
(18:25):
infatuated with Lone Ranger youknow the old timey, you know
Lone Ranger and Tonto and thislittle guy.
He had the boots, he had thelittle holster with the pistol
on the side, his cowboy hat, hisvest, I mean he was Lone Ranger
.
And he's like, no, you call meLone Ranger and so we show up
for a family event or whatnotand I'm like, hey, what's up?
(18:45):
Said his name and he goes no,I'm Lone Ranger, you call me
Lone Ranger.
Jess (18:48):
I can hear the song in my head right now, absolutely.
Pastor Jonge (18:51):
That's right, and I'm like, okay, am I Tonto?
And he laughs.
And I looked at my relative andhe goes oh no, he's serious,
he's serious, he's serious.
And it's like oh, it's a season, it's a phase, we're going to
call him Lone Ranger.
So why did I think of that?
Why, in the midst of thisconversation, did I immediately
think of that situation?
(19:12):
And she was asking me is itokay for me to call them by the
name they choose?
And I said well, you've alreadyclearly stated to them where
you stand on the scriptures.
Well, you've already clearlystated to them where you stand
on the scriptures, on God's word, that he breathed out the truth
of it.
You've already expressed that.
And yet you want to have yourrelationship, you want to be
(19:34):
light to this person.
That's going to be hard to do.
When you go, okay, forget you,I can't be around you, I'm not
going to.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And I said so I can't be aroundyou, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to.
You know blah, blah, blah.
And and I said so, is thereharm in you referring to them as
the name that they're choosing?
Just like when, when somebodycomes in to meet with me and I
(19:55):
know that they're, they're in an, in an affair, or somebody has.
I've gone to meet with somebodyat jail who got busted and
they're there in an orangejumpsuit and we're talking
through telephones on the otherside of the glass and they're
there because they stole or theyrobbed or they killed.
I don't refer to them as theadulterer, the thief or the
murderer.
I say, hey, what's your name?
And whatever name they give meis what I call them.
(20:16):
I'm not condoning the fact thatthey're an adulterer or the
fact that they're a murderer ora thief in that moment by
calling them their name.
But I am a representative oftruth in that moment and
everything that oozes from me isthe love of Christ, but also
(20:39):
his truth.
Jess (20:41):
I'm so glad you brought that up, representative of
Christ, because you say that andit reminds me of my friend that
is homosexual and I rememberwhen I found out he was, and I
just kept pushing and pushingand I was that one that, ok, I
(21:02):
can accept, this is who you arefor now.
Yeah, Because, oh no, he wouldlook and there was a Bible.
I snuck it under his pillow.
Okay, and okay, he let thatslide.
But then, oh, jess snuck aBible under his car seat.
Okay, I was like that friend, Iwas sneaking all kinds of like
(21:25):
anywhere I could find.
I was sneaking some type ofdevotional or something.
I was going to change him, Iwas going to make sure he knew
Jesus.
Then, finally, one day, he saidI am going to disappear out of
your life if you don't stop.
Stop right now.
And I cried for days and Iprayed because I was like God,
(21:49):
this is what I'm supposed to do.
I'm supposed to make him seeyou, I am a follower of Jesus.
I am supposed to tell him thisis not what he's supposed to be
doing.
It took a while for me just tolove him.
So, as a representative ofJesus, at what point do we just
(22:11):
stop and just love them.
Pastor Jonge (22:13):
Here's what I would say, just listening to
what you just said.
Jess (22:16):
Jess.
Pastor Jonge (22:17):
I would tweak your verbiage just a bit.
And here's where you said I'msupposed to make him.
That's where I would go ooh,are you, are you supposed to
make him?
And then the question is canyou even make him?
No, I cannot, right?
Nope, isn't this the message ofthe truth of the gospel?
(22:37):
I am not ashamed of the gospelof Jesus Christ, for it is the
power of God for salvation.
It's where the power is and Ithink that that's the you know
what.
I don't have to be offendable.
I mean, I don't have to offend.
All I have to do is stand onthe truth of Jesus Christ.
It's the word of God.
(22:59):
That's offensive.
I can't be cute or clever orcreative enough to bring
somebody from death to life.
That's the power of the gospel,that's God's business.
My job is to step in to theirarea, where they are their
darkness, and be Jesus to them,and I think that's the message
(23:27):
of 2 Corinthians, 5, 17 through21.
I think about that.
Where it talks about how wehave been reconciled to God,
there's this it's all about thereconciliation of God, that
we've been reconciled, and Ithink that when we step into
those relationships with people,we say, hey, guess what?
I've been redeemed, I've beenrescued, and you can be too.
You can be as well, and I cando that without putting Post-its
(23:51):
up all over their world andjust kind of being willing to
know them.
What we do know about all sin isit's going to lead to emptiness
.
Whatever you're running afterand whatever you're choosing, if
it's not Jesus, it's nevergoing to fulfill.
And there's going to come apoint in time where you're going
(24:14):
to be desperate for truth andreally peace.
Jesus is peace, we know this,and Ephesians talks about that.
That he becomes our peace.
And apart from Christ, we'renothing.
We're never going to amount toanything, and the beauty of it
is we all understand what it'slike to choose the lust of our
(24:34):
flesh, and it's empty.
It's empty, and so we earn theright to go.
Hey, let me tell you how I'vebeen reconciled.
Let me tell you what I waschasing, where the gospel found
me and it's truth, and leave therest up to the Holy Spirit of
God, who is bringing the truthof Jesus to them.
Steph (24:59):
Okay, I have another question.
I love this conversation.
This is so good because there'sso many of these situations
that I've wrestled with in myown life.
And so, backstory a few yearsago, when I got married, I was
looking for a photographer thatfit in my tiny budget.
Found a guy who I really lovedhis style and met with him and
(25:21):
I'm like, oh, this guy is great.
And my husband and I knew whenwe wanted to get married.
It was important for us that wegot married in a church.
It was just one of my littlegirl dreams that you walk down
the little steeple yes exactly,exactly.
But also, once I met with thisguy and knew he was going to be
our photographer, I was thinkinghe is living an actively open
(25:43):
homosexual lifestyle and here isan opportunity for him to get
to hear the gospel when, as thebride, how am I really going to
have a chance to minister to him?
Come to find out.
Then we started following eachother on social media, fast
forward a bit and he's like yes,this scripture and I'm this
believer and I follow Jesus inthis way and all this stuff and
(26:05):
I live with my partner and allthese things, and now I am
struggling Again.
Everybody's got their sin andsins look different.
But how do you love on somebodytrying to share this light when
they're like, oh, I know thatlight, I've got that light?
Pastor Jonge (26:22):
Yeah.
Steph (26:23):
Man, what a great conversation this is, jess.
It is so good, whoa, and wewant to be mindful of your time,
so we're going to come backmore next week.
Jess (26:34):
Yes, but you don't have to wait two weeks.
Tune in next Monday We'll droppart two of this episode of the
Jesus Fix it podcast.
Pastor Jonge (26:44):
Laughter with good friends, no matter how bumpy
the road gets.
That's what's waiting for youwith every episode of another
great podcast quirks, bumps andbruises with Melody and Candy.
Subscribe today, wherever youlisten.
Hey, welcome back, or welcome to the Jesus Fix it
podcast, the show where we talkabout life, the ups, the downs,
a little pop culture andeverything in between.
Steph (00:12):
I'm Jess and I'm Steph, every other week we dive into
the things we're asking Jesus tofix.
And let's be real, there's alot.
You can always count on us tokeep it real.
Jess (00:24):
Share some laughs with us and maybe a few tears, as we
tackle the big and small stuffwith faith and honesty.
So grab your coffee and let'sget into it.
All right, steph?
Yes, we have company today, wedo.
Okay, now we're hospitable,right?
Yes, I think so, you think so,I hope so, okay, I think we are
but we're going to let our guestintroduce himself.
(00:45):
I mean, he's used to talking topeople, he can do it.
Pastor Jonge (00:49):
He's pretty nice so far.
Pretty nice so far, yeah, sofar.
Jess (00:54):
Let's see how this goes.
Welcome, by the way.
Pastor Jonge (00:58):
Thanks for having me Appreciate the opportunity to
be here with you two ladies,and I'm excited to see what God
does with us this morning.
My name is John G Tate.
I live in Bedford, virginia.
I currently serve as one of thepastors at Bedrock Community
Church, a church that wasfounded 16 years ago by myself
and several men, excited to seewhat God wants to do with us
(01:19):
today.
Jess (01:20):
Okay, but we have to stop him just for a second, because I
heard John G, but that's notright.
I was corrected and soeverybody else has to be
corrected too.
In case you didn't hearcorrectly, it's not John G,
period.
Steph (01:37):
Or John space G no.
Pastor Jonge (01:39):
No, it is not.
It is J-O-N-G-E, it's all oneword.
My mom made it up.
Yes, I was born in Germany.
My father was 22 years AirForce before he became a pastor,
surrendered to that call.
I'm seventh generation pastorin my family, but there in the
military base in Bitburg,germany, my mom knew somebody,
(01:59):
or in some circles with somebody.
Their son was named John andmaybe a middle, initial or last
name was G or something.
And so you know how you.
You know you're in trouble whenyour mama calls you by the
first, middle and last name orsomething like that.
So it got all slammed together.
My mom liked the ring of John Gand so she you know J-O-N-G-E,
put it to paper and that's myname so it's not john space g.
(02:25):
Uh, I have a friend whoconstantly refers to me as john
g and I'm like, okay, what's up,larry, how you doing this
morning.
And he goes, oh, I see what youdid there.
I'm like, yeah, just justbungee, just slam it all
together.
Jess (02:38):
One word john g and you are saying it with your whole
chest.
I like it, hey, it's ouridentity.
Pastor Jonge (02:43):
You know what I'm saying it with your whole chest,
I like it.
Hey, it's our identity.
You know what I'm saying?
It's our name, I like it.
Jess (02:49):
I like it and I like the see, I like unique.
It's very I like it.
Pastor Jonge (02:54):
Oh, I get, I get Jorge, I get Yongie G, I get, I
got all kinds of stuff.
We traveled to Nicaragua and domissions down there and the
woman down there used to call me.
Jess (03:06):
Wongay Tate.
I'm like what.
I'm not even Right.
Pastor Jonge (03:11):
I don't even know what I'm like.
There's no way that you get youknow.
In Spanish it says Wongay Tate.
Jess (03:17):
I have no idea, okay All right.
Well, thank you for that.
I just had to put that outthere because it's so different.
I like it, I like different.
Yeah, my son, his name isCameron and he's like can you
(03:37):
just give me something otherthan Cameron?
And I said nope, this is what Ilike and this is what you got.
What would you call yourself?
And he said Cam Right is what Ilike and this is what you got.
What would you call?
Pastor Jonge (03:45):
yourself.
And he said Cam Right, that'swhat everybody calls me Well you
know you couldn't come up withanything other than Cam.
Jess (03:50):
So what do you?
Yeah, so I like it.
Your mom, she did good.
Pastor Jonge (03:54):
That's right, she did good.
Yep, she did good, all right,thank you.
Jess (03:59):
So we're just going to.
But you know straight up, ifyou have young ones listening
right now, the conversation mayget a little heavy.
Yes, it may not be suitable foryoung ears today.
Just want to let you knowstraight up.
Steph (04:13):
We're going to let you decide what young is, but I
think if maybe we were putting arating on this, the
conversation today is heavy, butit is one that we know so many
people are wrestling with.
Jess (04:26):
Yeah, I would say, if you have elementary age kids, would
you say, john Jay, if you haveelementary kids, maybe they're
not ready for this conversation.
Pastor Jonge (04:36):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I would say that if you haveelementary age kids in the
public school, they're hearingthese words.
Jess (04:43):
They're already hearing these words.
Pastor Jonge (04:46):
And as a father of four, I always my wife and I
always took the stand that wewanted our kids to hear words
from us first, because the worldand punk Satan have done a
really good job of skewing thewords and twisting them to mean
different things, and so wealways took the approach of hey,
let's be the first ones whohelped them understand what
(05:09):
certain words mean before theyhear it in a locker room or in
the hallways or when a teachersteps out of the classroom, or
something like that.
So, so yeah.
Jess (05:19):
All right, so there you go .
If you want to listen to thisconversation first and then let
your kids listen, then this isyour not warning, but your
parental advisory.
Yeah, there you go.
Yeah, so you guys were.
Well, steph, you were tellingme about a conversation of
(05:46):
conversation.
Pastor Jonge (05:46):
Yeah, so we're a church of small groups and we're
currently in a season wherewe're starting to gather some
people in the church who aren'tnecessarily connected to a group
yet but want to be.
So we started something calledthe Hub that met on Monday
nights just trying to connectpeople, and so Steph and her
husband joined us and we weretalking about being salt and
light.
It was the topic of the messagethat we had just preached in
(06:09):
our Go series from Matthew andhow we, as followers of Jesus,
are to be salt and light, reallyhow the scriptures tells us
that we already are Jesus saysyou are light of the world.
You don't have to muster it upand go out in the morning and be
that.
You already are as my followers.
So just go live it and walk init.
So we were walking through that.
(06:30):
It was probably nine or sopeople in our small group that
night and so, prodded, I wouldsay, by the Holy Spirit, off of
a conversation that I hadrecently had with somebody in
the church who was asking somehard questions about a family
member who was choosing to livean alternative lifestyle At this
(06:52):
point, hadn't yet gone tosurgical measures but was really
struggling with identity, whothey were and there's lots of
factors that play into that ofcould be abuse as a child.
I mean all of that stuff I'mnot privy to necessarily when
this question got poised to meand so I dropped it in life
(07:17):
group that night to say hey whatwould you guys do?
What would you say to a followerof Jesus who has a family
member who's choosing to liveopposed to what the scriptures
teach?
And she was like what do I do?
How do I love my family member?
(07:37):
Well, in the name of JesusChrist, without condoning their
apparent sin.
So that's what we dropped inthe group that night.
Steph (07:48):
Yeah, and what was very interesting, as we were having
this conversation, like nine ofus that were there.
Two of the families there inaddition to this one you're
talking about, said yep, I'vegot family members that are also
dealing with this same identitysituation.
Pastor Jonge (08:04):
It was.
It was really interesting, andthese aren't like distant
relatives.
These were close people intheir family who were either
actively involved in ahomosexual relationship or
struggling, perhaps, withsame-sex attraction, and it was
just really interesting becauseit brought the reality of this
(08:27):
context to our life group to gooh wow, this isn't something
that's happening over there orout there or in some other place
.
No, no, no, no.
This is happening right herewithin us and in our lives, and
we have to face it.
We have to look at it and takea look at how we go and be the
(08:51):
light that Jesus says we are.
Jess (08:53):
Yeah, I guess for me it's never as a believer, I've never
once looked at a homosexualperson or a transgender person
and thought I'm going to be rudeto them or dislike them.
(09:15):
I don't agree with theirlifestyle, but I've never once
thought I'm going to be rude ordislike them in any type of way.
But I've seen other Christiansautomatically not every
Christian, please hear me when Isay this, but I've
automatically.
I've seen other Christiansautomatically say you don't
(09:38):
belong here, you don't belong inthe church, I'm going to
automatically turn you away.
God doesn't love you.
I've seen that.
What do you think about that?
Pastor Jonge (09:52):
Yeah, one.
I think we have to rememberthat we're all fallen, and I
guess I would start by sayingthis for those listening I'm
coming from a heart that numberone holds a high view of God,
(10:14):
god's authority, god'ssovereignty over all of his
creation.
And so with that, I also have adeep conviction and a very high
view of God's Word as truth,that it's all breathed out by
the Almighty and it's useful forcorrection, for training, for
(10:37):
teaching, for the word rebuke,all of those things God's word
is useful for.
And then there's also aresponsibility for us as
followers of Christ, hisfollowers, to take the truth of
the good news of the gospel ofJesus Christ to those who are in
darkness, to those who are inneed of, confused by struggling
(11:01):
with sin, with identity who theyare in Christ and trying to
find themselves.
All we, like sheep, have goneastray.
We are all very capable ofmessing up.
Nobody had to teach me how tolie Nobody had to teach me how
to steal To the mom who's outthere going my baby's so cute
(11:23):
and so special.
I'm like wait till fourth grade.
Wait till they get to it Justwait, just wait.
They're going to come home andthey're going to say words and
you're going to be like who toldyou that we're just all capable
of sin?
We've all fallen, so we're allin need of God's love, we're all
in need of a Savior, which isthe message of John 3.16,.
But it's also the message ofJohn 3.17, that God loved us,
(11:49):
but yet he loved us and he sentChrist to die on the cross for
us so that we could be justified, we could be set free from our
lives, the flesh that's sowicked, our lives, the flesh
(12:10):
that's so wicked.
And so I think we step intolife too.
We step into these circles inwhich we're living, armed with
truth but yet full of grace, totake God's Word where it is so
desperately needed in pockets ofdarkness.
And I think we all have a withthat that we're born in sin.
We all have a certainpropensity towards certain sins.
(12:34):
And everybody's different,everybody's thumbprint.
Not a single thumbprint is thesame which is insane to think
about, but yet it's so very true.
So I think we're armed withtruth and grace from God's word
as we step into that.
Jess (12:50):
Do you know what I find myself and I know you'll find
also.
You'll find that we're all overthe place.
But do you know what I findmyself explaining to a lot of my
other believer friends andpeople in my church is when they
see me with one of my friendswho is homosexual, or if I'm
(13:12):
being nice to there's a personthat goes to our church who is
openly transgender and for themost part people are kind, but
people who are friends with thatperson we find ourselves
explaining to other believersand other members in our church
(13:36):
that we're not endorsing thatbehavior just because we are
kind to them.
We're not condoning thatbehavior just because we're kind
, just because we show themcompassion.
But we are still called to lovepeople even though we don't
(13:56):
condone their sin.
How do we continually pleadthat, tell people that, or do we
just continue just to show thelove of Jesus and just say, look
, either you get it or you don't?
Do you know what I mean?
Pastor Jonge (14:12):
I do know what you mean and I think, Jess, at the
end of the day, who are we?
We're followers of Jesus.
So what I love about God's wordis we have this opportunity to
go.
Okay.
Was Jesus in these scenes?
Was Jesus in scenes aroundpeople who were sinners, and
(14:33):
what does his word teach us fromthat?
There are several places in thegospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John where we see these momentswith Jesus.
I think about Jesus going toMatthew's house in Matthew,
chapter 9, where it says thathe's sitting with tax collectors
(14:55):
and sinners.
And you have the outsidePharisees who are looking on
this scene going how dare you?
What are you doing?
Who are you?
You've got Jesus at Levi'shouse.
This is Mark, chapter 2, Luke,chapter 5.
Once again, sitting with taxcollectors.
(15:15):
These are hated people.
Tax collectors were someruthless people and vile that
people did not want to hang outwith, and the scriptures teach
us that Jesus was a friend ofsinners.
And so you go, okay.
How can we then step into thesinner's world, where they are,
(15:42):
meet them where they are withthe truth?
That means we're going to haveto go hang out with them.
That means we're going to haveto go be in their sphere,
befriend them.
Jesus was eating dinner withthem, and so I think that when I
walk away from that, I go okay,if Jesus were here today, he
would know transgenders, hewould know people who are
(16:04):
struggling with same-sexattraction, he would know people
by name who are perhapsactively in homosexual
relationships.
He would be taking the light,the truth of the good news of
who he is to those people.
And so we can't just go okay.
Well, I'm not comfortable withthat sin, as I am comfortable
(16:27):
with my own sin, and sotherefore, I'm not going to
associate or run from or I'mgoing to picket against.
No, I don't think we can dothat.
I think we have to take thelight and his love to them and
stand on what it says.
And I think, at the end of theday, the gospel is extremely
offensive.
Let's be honest.
(16:47):
It's very offensive.
Jess (16:49):
But, it's supposed to be but the good news is.
Steph (16:51):
The good news is is we don't have to be so.
Thinking about that.
Part of that conversation thathappened in the small group was
if you've got a relative that istransgender to be and says,
okay, I no longer want to beknown as sally, I now want to be
called sam.
(17:12):
The offensive conversation thenhow, as a christian, are we
approaching this and are wesaying, okay, well, well, I want
to love you in the steps thatyou're walking in right now, but
I don't agree by calling youSam when you were born Sally.
Pastor Jonge (17:36):
Yeah, yeah, and that was a situation that we
were talking about, because thatwas a real life question that
came up, and so this person hadhad conversations that erupted
explosively.
It was met with, you know you,christian bigot, pointing
fingers.
Who are you?
You don't know me, you don'tknow what I've been through.
You know there's always a storybehind the story and you don't
(18:01):
know that story.
That's behind the story untilyou go sit down, have
conversations that are lovingand I want to hear you.
And so immediately I'm sittingthere with this person and I
immediately thought of arelative who had a when their
son was young I'm saying, likeyou know, it's old enough to
talk, maybe four years old,something like that and became
(18:25):
infatuated with Lone Ranger youknow the old timey, you know
Lone Ranger and Tonto and thislittle guy.
He had the boots, he had thelittle holster with the pistol
on the side, his cowboy hat, hisvest, I mean he was Lone Ranger
.
And he's like, no, you call meLone Ranger and so we show up
for a family event or whatnotand I'm like, hey, what's up?
(18:45):
Said his name and he goes no,I'm Lone Ranger, you call me
Lone Ranger.
Jess (18:48):
I can hear the song in my head right now, absolutely.
Pastor Jonge (18:51):
That's right, and I'm like, okay, am I Tonto?
And he laughs.
And I looked at my relative andhe goes oh no, he's serious,
he's serious, he's serious.
And it's like oh, it's a season, it's a phase, we're going to
call him Lone Ranger.
So why did I think of that?
Why, in the midst of thisconversation, did I immediately
think of that situation?
(19:12):
And she was asking me is itokay for me to call them by the
name they choose?
And I said well, you've alreadyclearly stated to them where
you stand on the scriptures.
Well, you've already clearlystated to them where you stand
on the scriptures, on God's word, that he breathed out the truth
of it.
You've already expressed that.
And yet you want to have yourrelationship, you want to be
(19:34):
light to this person.
That's going to be hard to do.
When you go, okay, forget you,I can't be around you, I'm not
going to.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And I said so I can't be aroundyou, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to.
You know blah, blah, blah.
And and I said so, is thereharm in you referring to them as
the name that they're choosing?
Just like when, when somebodycomes in to meet with me and I
(19:55):
know that they're, they're in an, in an affair, or somebody has.
I've gone to meet with somebodyat jail who got busted and
they're there in an orangejumpsuit and we're talking
through telephones on the otherside of the glass and they're
there because they stole or theyrobbed or they killed.
I don't refer to them as theadulterer, the thief or the
murderer.
I say, hey, what's your name?
And whatever name they give meis what I call them.
(20:16):
I'm not condoning the fact thatthey're an adulterer or the
fact that they're a murderer ora thief in that moment by
calling them their name.
But I am a representative oftruth in that moment and
everything that oozes from me isthe love of Christ, but also
(20:39):
his truth.
Jess (20:41):
I'm so glad you brought that up, representative of
Christ, because you say that andit reminds me of my friend that
is homosexual and I rememberwhen I found out he was, and I
just kept pushing and pushingand I was that one that, ok, I
(21:02):
can accept, this is who you arefor now.
Yeah, Because, oh no, he wouldlook and there was a Bible.
I snuck it under his pillow.
Okay, and okay, he let thatslide.
But then, oh, jess snuck aBible under his car seat.
Okay, I was like that friend, Iwas sneaking all kinds of like
(21:25):
anywhere I could find.
I was sneaking some type ofdevotional or something.
I was going to change him, Iwas going to make sure he knew
Jesus.
Then, finally, one day, he saidI am going to disappear out of
your life if you don't stop.
Stop right now.
And I cried for days and Iprayed because I was like God,
(21:49):
this is what I'm supposed to do.
I'm supposed to make him seeyou, I am a follower of Jesus.
I am supposed to tell him thisis not what he's supposed to be
doing.
It took a while for me just tolove him.
So, as a representative ofJesus, at what point do we just
(22:11):
stop and just love them.
Pastor Jonge (22:13):
Here's what I would say, just listening to
what you just said.
Jess (22:16):
Jess.
Pastor Jonge (22:17):
I would tweak your verbiage just a bit.
And here's where you said I'msupposed to make him.
That's where I would go ooh,are you, are you supposed to
make him?
And then the question is canyou even make him?
No, I cannot, right?
Nope, isn't this the message ofthe truth of the gospel?
(22:37):
I am not ashamed of the gospelof Jesus Christ, for it is the
power of God for salvation.
It's where the power is and Ithink that that's the you know
what.
I don't have to be offendable.
I mean, I don't have to offend.
All I have to do is stand onthe truth of Jesus Christ.
It's the word of God.
(22:59):
That's offensive.
I can't be cute or clever orcreative enough to bring
somebody from death to life.
That's the power of the gospel,that's God's business.
My job is to step in to theirarea, where they are their
darkness, and be Jesus to them,and I think that's the message
(23:27):
of 2 Corinthians, 5, 17 through21.
I think about that.
Where it talks about how wehave been reconciled to God,
there's this it's all about thereconciliation of God, that
we've been reconciled, and Ithink that when we step into
those relationships with people,we say, hey, guess what?
I've been redeemed, I've beenrescued, and you can be too.
You can be as well, and I cando that without putting Post-its
(23:51):
up all over their world andjust kind of being willing to
know them.
What we do know about all sin isit's going to lead to emptiness
.
Whatever you're running afterand whatever you're choosing, if
it's not Jesus, it's nevergoing to fulfill.
And there's going to come apoint in time where you're going
(24:14):
to be desperate for truth andreally peace.
Jesus is peace, we know this,and Ephesians talks about that.
That he becomes our peace.
And apart from Christ, we'renothing.
We're never going to amount toanything, and the beauty of it
is we all understand what it'slike to choose the lust of our
(24:34):
flesh, and it's empty.
It's empty, and so we earn theright to go.
Hey, let me tell you how I'vebeen reconciled.
Let me tell you what I waschasing, where the gospel found
me and it's truth, and leave therest up to the Holy Spirit of
God, who is bringing the truthof Jesus to them.
Steph (24:59):
Okay, I have another question.
I love this conversation.
This is so good because there'sso many of these situations
that I've wrestled with in myown life.
And so, backstory a few yearsago, when I got married, I was
looking for a photographer thatfit in my tiny budget.
Found a guy who I really lovedhis style and met with him and
(25:21):
I'm like, oh, this guy is great.
And my husband and I knew whenwe wanted to get married.
It was important for us that wegot married in a church.
It was just one of my littlegirl dreams that you walk down
the little steeple yes exactly,exactly.
But also, once I met with thisguy and knew he was going to be
our photographer, I was thinkinghe is living an actively open
(25:43):
homosexual lifestyle and here isan opportunity for him to get
to hear the gospel when, as thebride, how am I really going to
have a chance to minister to him?
Come to find out.
Then we started following eachother on social media, fast
forward a bit and he's like yes,this scripture and I'm this
believer and I follow Jesus inthis way and all this stuff and
(26:05):
I live with my partner and allthese things, and now I am
struggling Again.
Everybody's got their sin andsins look different.
But how do you love on somebodytrying to share this light when
they're like, oh, I know thatlight, I've got that light?
Pastor Jonge (26:22):
Yeah.
Steph (26:23):
Man, what a great conversation this is, jess.
It is so good, whoa, and wewant to be mindful of your time,
so we're going to come backmore next week.
Jess (26:34):
Yes, but you don't have to wait two weeks.
Tune in next Monday We'll droppart two of this episode of the
Jesus Fix it podcast.
Pastor Jonge (26:44):
Laughter with good friends, no matter how bumpy
the road gets.
That's what's waiting for youwith every episode of another
great podcast quirks, bumps andbruises with Melody and Candy.
Subscribe today, wherever youlisten.
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